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00:00He fouled a star. It's bad. I mean, clear. He trips him when he's going for a loose ball.
00:06In the game situation, you know, that's tough.
00:10Well, the two-minute report came out.
00:14And before I even read it, JB was outraged.
00:18Pistons fans were outraged. Jim Costa and John Jansen, not terribly outraged.
00:22They were saying, like, hey, you were up by nine. Finish the game. You're a grown man.
00:27Up by nine with three minutes left to go. Finish that damn game.
00:30Justin Termini, our buddy from SiriusXM NBA Radio, we were texting each other at 1026 yesterday morning.
00:38Cussing each other out, but I only shared one snippet of that conversation on social media.
00:42But after that, he had this video about the non-call.
00:48Can somebody tell me what a foul is? A foul's a foul.
00:51A foul took place right in front of Tony Brothers. He's looking at it.
00:55That is a series-altering no-call because Detroit's not going to come back and win two games.
01:01They're not going to win on the road in Cleveland to force a Game 7 and then win a Game
01:057 against a very experienced Cleveland team,
01:08even if it's on their home floor.
01:09So that is series-altering.
01:11That is legacy-altering in a positive way for guys like James Harden and Donovan Mitchell,
01:17who advanced to the conference finals with one more victory.
01:21If that call happens right in front of you, you have to make that call.
01:25A foul is a foul.
01:26Because that altered who wins that game.
01:28That altered who wins the series.
01:30So that is just a massive, epic fail by Tony Brothers and the officials.
01:35But let's be honest.
01:36You've got to make that call there.
01:38Tony Brothers and the officials not making that call.
01:41Absolutely brutal.
01:41That's audio courtesy of the Termini Crashes Out podcast.
01:45And you can play this for Justin.
01:46Of all the dumb things he's ever said, that was the dumbest.
01:49And think of the territory that takes in.
01:52This is what I love about this.
01:54And the two-minute report came out, and it says that there were no missed calls in the final two
02:00minutes of that game.
02:01And I loved it, and I champions posed it, and I'm sure you were excited about it.
02:05I love this, that this is common sense.
02:08There's still room for common sense in professional sports.
02:11Guys, part of it, and record this for posterity, because it will come back and get us at some point.
02:16It's professional sports.
02:18I'm going to have to take, we're all going to have to take one on the chin at some point.
02:22You know that tone.
02:24But time is evaporating.
02:27He's on your side of the floor.
02:31He might be able to force up a crazy shot.
02:33It's the playoffs.
02:35It's the playoffs.
02:36And let's call it what it is.
02:38It's an entertainment business.
02:42What do you think that they would say about the NBA in general?
02:47Had that been called and they send Ozzer Thompson to the line with .7 seconds left?
02:55Think about the credibility of the league.
02:57Seriously.
02:58Think about the credibility of the league.
02:59You take the game out of the players' hands?
03:02No.
03:03You gave up the nine-point lead.
03:04You go win it in overtime now.
03:07We're not doing this.
03:08And by the way, there were plenty of people saying, well, you look what Ozzer Thompson did.
03:12He grabbed him by the arm as well.
03:13Like, there could have been a foul on that.
03:15No missed calls because it's common sense tone.
03:18And I got to tell you, J.B. Bickerstaff sounds really weak this morning.
03:22Hearing all that.
03:23Reading all that.
03:24Your thoughts.
03:25Yeah.
03:26Specifically, they say that Thompson and Allen legally stepped to the same spot while pursuing the loose ball
03:33before either player has possession and both lose their balance from the marginal contact,
03:37which is what Tony Brothers said to the pool reporter afterwards.
03:41He said, and yeah, we'll get it confirmed when we look at the two-minute report, which is exactly what
03:46happened.
03:46And there was some outrage in the hours, you know, after that game.
03:52The wrong team won.
03:54This was egregious mistake, you know, when all was said and done.
03:59And I was glad that, you know, cooler heads have seemed to prevail because as we get further away,
04:04I heard Zach Lowe yesterday, he argued with Howard Beck, who we've had on the show,
04:08because Howard's like, I think you got to call it.
04:10And Zach's like, are we sure?
04:12Of course, Howard Beck thought you had to call it.
04:13But Zach Lowe said, are we sure that Thompson didn't follow him first?
04:16Are we sure he even tripped over Allen first?
04:19Looked like they tripped over, looked like he tripped on his own foot first.
04:22So it seems to me that as we've gotten further away, people have been like, this is very questionable at
04:28the very least.
04:29And, you know, on the other side of things, could even have been a foul on Detroit.
04:33So in the end, you never call this.
04:34You never call this.
04:35Exactly.
04:35And I'm not even trying to go over here going, well, maybe it was a foul on Detroit.
04:38No.
04:38I know we bring that up for reference, but it highlights that's why you don't call it.
04:43Because it is the playoffs.
04:44And I heard Danny Green on Baskin and Phelps says, yeah, maybe in February they call that.
04:49I don't even know in February they do.
04:50You got a packed house here.
04:51It's a big game.
04:53It would still be a big game because they're both top four seeds in the Eastern Conference.
04:57So it's probably a game that people are paying attention to.
05:00You pay money to go watch a guy at the charity stripe at the end of a basketball game?
05:03And had they have.
05:04You've got to go over the inverse.
05:06Had they have sent him to the free throw line, that is the story.
05:10Yes.
05:10This was like maybe one of 30 things we talk about.
05:14I know there was discussion about an egregious lane violation by James Harden in overtime.
05:20Well, they didn't box him out.
05:21I mean, you know, Detroit.
05:24When have I ever seen a lane violation called in the playoffs, especially in overtime for a shooter?
05:30Normally, the shooter's getting boxed out.
05:33So there's not even an attempt at a lane violation.
05:36Exactly.
05:36So think about what the inverse would have been.
05:38And I think in the end, we're not going to look back at this and say that that cost Detroit
05:43the game of the series.
05:44And think about who it is.
05:45If it's any other name that we don't know, I don't know if it's being brought up as much.
05:49But because it's Tony Brothers and because he's a well-known referee and because I don't put him in Angel
05:55Hernandez territory or C.B. Buckner territory or even Joey Crawford territory.
05:59No, he rates as one of their best officials.
06:01But he's well-known and people see him on the camera and when they're going to the table and he's
06:07seen as kind of a – he's seen as a bit of a curmudgeon.
06:11A bit of a curmudgeon.
06:12And he is.
06:13It seems to be that way.
06:14People don't like him.
06:15And so when you see that it's Tony Brothers, people go, oh, here we go.
06:18If it's any other guy that you really didn't know about, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
06:22But because it's him, because it is at the end of the game, and I just think, yeah, what if
06:27they do call it?
06:27What are people saying about the NBA if they do call that?
06:30Game of soft, Ben.
06:31Right.
06:32Game of a soft league.
06:33What has happened to the game I love?
06:34You have to protect the league as well as the game if you're a referee.
06:38And don't act like we don't know that.
06:40Big bad Detroit where it's always been about black and blue games when you go to Detroit and the bad
06:46boy era.
06:47So to hear them talk about the Cavs have been too forceful and too physical in this series, and they're
06:54getting away with it.
06:55Like, that is so fresh.
06:57You guys won a title.
06:59That title that they won over the Lakers, the old Carl Malone, Kobe Bryant, and Shaq were dissolving.
07:06Like, they followed on every play.
07:08That was what they were known for.
07:09You know, sitting courtside at that game where some of the all-time Ben Wallace,
07:15some of the great physical all-time defensive players, and you guys wanted that to be a foul.
07:20That is fresh coming from that city and that team.
07:23And let me ask you this.
07:24Did JB, because that might have been able to fly here.
07:27We don't have the type of history that they have.
07:29Let's call it what it is.
07:30We didn't have Rick Mahorn.
07:31We didn't have Lamb Beer and the bad boys, okay?
07:34Did he forget the team he coaches?
07:36Because they pride themselves on that.
07:37There's murals all over the city of that type of team.
07:40Kind of felt like it all went out the window with that barrage of complaints afterwards.
07:43You look weak.
07:44Sitting there complaining about officials when you were supposed to be the tough team.
07:47Chuck Daly is rolling in his grave.
07:49His hair is still perfect, but he's rolling in his grave.
07:51And, you know, thinking about the fact that the whole discussion is one of their tough guys,
07:56do they bring them off the bench now in Duren?
07:59Like, think about how the tide has swung, and that is why, part of the reason,
08:05the Cavs are now in the great spot of being able to close them out at home.
08:10I totally agree.
08:11And I think JB looks really weak this morning.
08:13I think he looks really weak and feckless by the complaining that went on at the end of that game.
08:19Because I can go with the two-minute report, and we can say whether we believe it or not,
08:22because you always said, the two-minute report doesn't make anybody feel any better.
08:25They don't give you the win.
08:26It doesn't matter.
08:27But it is fun to go over, especially when it went your way.
08:30But at the same time, let's say what it is.
08:33It's grown men.
08:34You wouldn't have been able to deal with it.
08:35There would have been some crazy parent on the floor at a CYO basketball game on a Saturday morning
08:40had that call been made, let alone game five of the Eastern Conference semis.
08:45Think about how things have gotten away from the Pistons, that they're sitting there saying,
08:50Cavs are too physical, and they wanted lane violations and fouls on incidental contact 70 feet away
08:56to give them a victory.
08:57Think about your state of affairs for your former number one seed.
09:00Sure as hell killed that narrative.
09:03That whole soft narrative, holy God.
09:05Are the Cavs too tough?
09:06Too tough.
09:072-1-6-4-7-4-0-0-0-0-9-2.
09:11Joey, that's your title for this segment.
09:13Are the Cavs too tough?
09:14Are the Cavs too tough now?
09:15And make sure it's T-O-O.
09:18J.B. Vickerstaff coming off week.
09:21Like he doesn't understand the history of the team he coaches.
09:24It's a sad day for him.
09:26Well, yesterday was a sad day.
09:27He's got to pick up the pieces and move on.
09:29Because he's got to avoid being closed out tonight.
09:31I do think the Cavs win tonight.
09:33We'll get to ageism being real with your Cleveland Browns at 722 this morning.
09:38Also, we have a market watch for game six.
09:40You're going to be very interested in this coming up at 722.
09:43And there is a caveat to the tickets that somebody sent us yesterday.
09:49But we're not getting tickets.
09:50But if you're getting tickets, there's a caveat to it that we will give you coming up at around 722
09:55this morning.
09:562-1-6-4-7-4-0-0-0-92.
09:57I do think that J.B., in the two-minute report, I think a lot of common sense has prevailed.
10:04I think it's a great day for professional sports after that where I do.
10:08I think that anybody who's been saying that it's a foul and it should have been to the line,
10:12I just think you're kind of a busybody.
10:13I think you're kind of a Barney Fyfe.
10:16I think that you are – I just don't think you live in the real world.
10:20I don't think you do.
10:21And, guys, someday, if we all do this long enough, you know the laws of sports, all these comments you
10:29will have to answer to because it's going to happen to us.
10:31It might happen tonight.
10:32It may not happen for five years.
10:34But at some point, it's going to happen to us.
10:36And I am convinced I will stay the same way.
10:40It's the final seconds of a basketball game.
10:43And I really don't care.
10:44I said it was because part of it is the NBA.
10:46They are protecting the NBA.
10:48I do think that's true.
10:49But I think in so many ways, come on.
10:52You guys going into work – and it's easy to say this because we're Cavs fans for the most part.
10:56But you know this.
10:57You're getting ready.
10:58You're getting in your truck.
10:59Getting in your car.
11:00You're going into work.
11:02You know damn well if you play pickup basketball, you watch basketball, you've been a fan of basketball,
11:09you know as a man, you're going to put a guy at the line in the final seconds of a
11:14basketball –
11:15excuse me, with less than one second in a basketball game, you're going to put him at the line
11:19to shoot free throws to win the game.
11:21Of the fighting that's gone on, the strategy that's gone on, we're going to do a simple questionable –
11:27like if he would have went up there and slugged him like, yeah, put him on the line.
11:30We've got to do what we've got to do.
11:31Of that, we know better.
11:33It's the equivalent of in the Super Bowl – or I guess I should say Super Bowl.
11:36We're American men.
11:37We know better.
11:38In a playoff NFL game, calling pass interference on a Hail Mary.
11:42That's what it is.
11:43Exactly.
11:43And when do we ever do that?
11:44We don't.
11:45We don't.
11:45Even guys get mauled.
11:47We don't call it.
11:48They do.
11:48They do.
11:49People make the videos all the time.
11:51A guy's basically getting choked out in the end zone and nobody – because you don't call it.
11:55You don't call it because it's silly.
11:58And if you did, I think honestly if Tony Brothers or anybody would have blown the whistle,
12:03how do you get out of that?
12:05Do you just say it wasn't a foul?
12:06Like, you probably go, oh, God, I've made a terrible mistake.
12:08I think that they would do that in Senate League basketball, let alone the NBA.
12:13And so to hear him complain, hey, it's therapeutic for me.
12:17My team's up 3-2 and my team looks tougher than yours now.
12:20And my team – yeah, there's been tough guys who've played for the Cavs.
12:22My team doesn't have a whole documentary made about punching people in the face like the Detroit Pistons do.
12:28I'm feeling real good as a Cavs fan right now.
12:302-1-6-4-7-4-0-0-92.
12:32I want to get to James Harden here in just a moment.
12:33Let me get to Denise in Cleveland.
12:35She is first up on the fan.
12:36Hello, Denise.
12:38Good morning.
12:40Morning to you, Denise.
12:41Go right on ahead.
12:43Listen, I'm a Cavs fan through and through.
12:45I think I'm one of the few people here in Cleveland that love the Cavs over the Browns.
12:50So I'm going to always be here to, you know, put it down for my Cavs.
12:54First of all, Bickerstaff was here, so we know him.
12:57We know that he can't win the game.
13:00That's why we chose to go in a different direction.
13:04He always has had the propensity to blame everything outside of him,
13:09except he never says what he's done wrong.
13:12Now, your team blew a nine-point lead at the end of the game.
13:18I'm sorry, Denise, you broke up there for a second.
13:21Let me go back with the JB stuff.
13:23I do think that JB is a good coach.
13:25I think he's a good builder.
13:26I think that it's been a couple times over with the Cavs.
13:30He didn't really get a chance the first time around in his previous stop before that,
13:33and now you have it here with Detroit.
13:35I can't help but agree with you because you've been to the postseason now.
13:39To me, he's a good end-season coach.
13:43When it comes to the big games, he always finds a way to coach himself out of it.
13:48Explain how your team blew a nine-point lead with basically two minutes to go.
13:53That's not the refs.
13:55That's you.
13:56And you need to accept responsibility instead of being on TV whining like a baby
14:02because somebody didn't bring me my ball.
14:06Boy, get over it.
14:08Denise, thank you very much for the call.
14:09I think I'll take it even one step further.
14:11Not even being mean-spirited about it.
14:12I think he gets lost in the moment.
14:14I think he gets lost in the emotions of it.
14:18He's turning to the boy who cried wolf.
14:19Part of his job, I understand, is playing a bad guy to the refs
14:24and going after the refs for calls.
14:27Somehow, it's just the way it goes.
14:29I've never understood it.
14:30But I think he gets bogged down with the minutia of the refs
14:34and doesn't focus on the situation.
14:36Again, with the blown timeout the other night with him.
14:38And you still had Kenny with his timeouts to the point where we were critical of him
14:42for not using the one timeout at the end.
14:43And he answered that question.
14:44But he misses on those type of things.
14:46And we've seen that before.
14:48I would also say, like, the smart ball knowers, Kenny,
14:52have started to break down the profile of the players.
14:55And so what do we know about Donovan Mitchell?
14:58He has had monstrous free throw games in the playoffs.
15:02James Harden, his whole career.
15:03You know, and that's certainly, we shine a light on that
15:06because it's controversial.
15:07And for good reason.
15:08A lot of it is controversial.
15:09Whether or not he gets the 50-50 landing area call.
15:12But you go to the other side.
15:15And it's a Detroit team with, when they are going right, what is it?
15:20It's Tobias Harris, turnaround jump shot, off balance.
15:24Karis LeVert, off balance, turnarounds.
15:27Cade Cunningham is somebody who plays a little bit more power.
15:30But he also settles for a lot of mid-range game.
15:33And what do we know about the mid-range game in the NBA?
15:35Not conducive to getting to the free throw line.
15:37So you start to examine the profile.
15:40And it actually, as you take a broader view of things, kind of makes sense.
15:47Yeah, the Cavs would be a team.
15:48Oh, you want to add another dimension?
15:49What is Detroit?
15:51What were they the leaders in the NBA this year?
15:53Fouling.
15:53They fouled the most of any team in the NBA.
15:57So it creates this perfect storm of a free throw discrepancy over time
16:02that actually is fairly logical.
16:06I wonder if they come out tonight and they try to do what we've tried to do to them.
16:09Which I wonder if they try to play really hard in the paint, kind of damn the torpedoes,
16:14drive, because Donovan was settling for too much.
16:16And then in game four, he said, listen, I got to do this.
16:19I have to drive the lane.
16:20I have to try to play the inside out stuff.
16:22That's what I'm going to have to do.
16:23James Harden took it to a different level.
16:25And I wanted to bring up James Harden here because I want to get to Louis Riddick, of all people.
16:29His tweet's coming up here in a moment.
16:30Danny Green, though, former Cavalier.
16:32He was on Baskin and Phelps yesterday.
16:34He was talking about James Harden and kind of the difference that he makes
16:38with this Cleveland Cavaliers team and how good of a fit he actually is.
16:41I think James is a great fit for this team.
16:43If he plays the way we know he's capable of, that's the only issue, right?
16:46People have an issue with him that his production, his aggressiveness drops in the playoffs.
16:50Biggest thing for me is if you just play solid and don't turn the ball over,
16:53that'll give your team a plus.
16:54Like, I don't expect him to do much at this point.
16:57I mean, a lot of people don't.
16:58But I think he's a really good fit.
16:59As you can see, like, when he's playing well and those other guys thrive,
17:02it opens up the floor for Ed Mobley, Jared Allen.
17:04They get easy baskets, easy dunks.
17:06He also can score.
17:07But he's a great facilitator.
17:08He's one of very few guys that will adjust his game from being an elite scorer
17:11to an elite point guard passer and being an assistant.
17:13So I think he's a great fit and allowed Don to be off the ball some
17:16and also not exert as much energy.
17:17So that's a basketball guy.
17:19That's a former player.
17:20You hear a lot of that about James Harden from former players.
17:24Louis Riddick was a former football player who clearly has –
17:27I sent you guys that clip when I was on the boat.
17:29He clearly has an interest in the NBA in the game.
17:32And he was watching that game.
17:34He's a former Cleveland Brown, former general manager.
17:35This is what – read what Louis Riddick was writing the other night
17:39about James Harden.
17:40Yes, that Harden's flopping around on the ground like that
17:43after trying to con the refs into calling a foul.
17:45Such an effing joke.
17:46It's so bad, Riddick tweeted.
17:47Do you write the actual word?
17:48E-F-F-I-N-G.
17:50Okay.
17:52Look.
17:53There are – people keep sending us the clip of the guy from the Rockets
17:57ripping on James Harden.
17:59At least they kept doing it after the first two games of this series
18:03where it looked like he couldn't play the game of basketball anymore.
18:07There is a hate that people watch with him.
18:09Oh, yeah.
18:10And they want the Cavaliers to lose.
18:12And you used to hate watching.
18:13I used to be – up until a trade in February, I was on board with that hatred.
18:19And it sucks.
18:20Like, it is a – it's a really, really tough aspect of the game.
18:24You've got to harken back to the Zaza Pachulia play that led to all this
18:29with Kawhi Leonard and took Kawhi out of a series
18:31and ended the San Antonio Spurs' chances at continuing on with their greatness.
18:37And it was a very, very – it's a delicate issue in the NBA
18:42because shooters, with all the injuries that happened,
18:45they tried to protect the shooters.
18:47So the theory is, all right, the shooters have a shooting motion.
18:50When they go up in the air, some go a little more forward.
18:54Mark Price would have feasted in this day and age.
18:57Mark Price would jump about a foot ahead of himself.
19:00And so the landing area is a tough thing to, you know,
19:05try to litigate on a play-by-play basis.
19:08And there's no doubt James Harden has made a career over having that area
19:13and exaggerating the landing spot.
19:16The flip side of this is, on no planet is Detroit telling Tobias Harris
19:22anything other than be careful about the landing area.
19:25And there's one thing he has not done in this series is he's not been careful.
19:30He's been almost brain-dead around the landing area.
19:32Like, you know you're guarding James Harden.
19:34You know James is not a speedster.
19:37You know you're Tobias Harris and you've got that length.
19:41Most likely, they are coaching him to, hey, make sure the last thing you do
19:46is fumble over your clothes out and be awkward in that area, in your technique.
19:52And yet, James Harden's really good at getting guys to hover around him,
19:57having guys think that they can take the ball from him,
20:00and then when you least expect it, he's going to go up for the jumper,
20:04and then you're in his landing area.
20:06I mean, James Harden has been on the ground like 15 times in this series.
20:10I think this explains the entire James Harden experience since he left Oklahoma City.
20:16He was the third guy on that team, and he was so much fun.
20:19And you saw this player that blossomed into an MVP-caliber player.
20:23And people love that team.
20:24People love that Oklahoma City team.
20:26Durant, I was the biggest Russell Westbrook fan that you had known at that time.
20:30Remember, we talked about it.
20:31We had everything there, and it got broken up.
20:35And ever since then, James Harden has kind of been like,
20:38I'm not going to be in the Daryl Morey stuff.
20:40Ever since really Daryl Morey, he's like,
20:41I'm not going to be messing around with any of these teams anymore.
20:43I'm not trusting any of these teams anymore.
20:45And when you watch James Harden play for your team, you absolutely love it.
20:48And then it always ends ugly, and you hate James Harden more than you ever thought
20:52you could hate a basketball player in your entire life.
20:54Because him playing for you, when people watch him,
20:58it's one of the most frustrating things ever.
20:59But when he's going to the line for you, when he's doing some of the things he does for you,
21:02it's some of the most fun because you're winning the basketball games,
21:05and you know it's upsetting people more than they can even believe
21:09that you're winning the basketball game against them.
21:12And then, obviously, he gets a little bit upset with management,
21:14and things go the way they go.
21:15That is the entire James Harden experience.
21:18I'm living through the good part of it right now.
21:20At some point, we'll probably get to the bad part, hopefully later than earlier.
21:24But yeah, it is one of those quintessential Jack Parkman,
21:28change of a jersey, what does it do for a guy?
21:31And here we are, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it.
21:33And thank God, the first two games, instead of the last few games,
21:38he's been fantastic, and he wasted the bad games at the beginning of the series
21:42when we were figuring out the Detroit Pistons.
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