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00:00That's Jared Allen talking about faith in the head coach, Kenny Atkinson.
00:04How much faith do you have in Kenny Atkinson?
00:07Game four, how much faith do you have in the Cavs in general?
00:10Being able to get in this series, I'll be honest, I left him for dead on Friday
00:15and I had a lot of people in my mentions going, oh, Lima turned negative.
00:20He's just going to flip-flop every game.
00:22And I'm like, I really haven't flip-flopped now.
00:24Like, I think they're big trouble for the series.
00:27Even listening to Kenny Atkinson talk about where they are,
00:30he doesn't seem like he's fully bought in on just being able to even up the score.
00:37But they did what they had to do in game three.
00:39Give them credit, give Max Struess, give James Harden.
00:43I even saw people on social media say, hey, what about Sam Merrill?
00:46Yeah, I mean, look, you need more guys to step up.
00:49I thought Evan Mobley was dominant defensively in game three.
00:54Did a little better in the rebounding, but still the bigs got pounded
00:57and the offensive glass was not the friend of the whining goal.
01:01But it's got to be a lot more of that.
01:02Not just an evening up the series tonight with tip-off time.
01:06You know, they said 8 o'clock, probably be closer to 8-10, 8-15 on Peacock and NBC.
01:12Is this an NBC game?
01:13It's an actual NBC game.
01:15Wow.
01:15Imagine that.
01:16We're running out of games for them to have.
01:19Imagine that.
01:20Yeah, it's not going to be a streaming exclusive.
01:22But this is going to be a late one tonight.
01:24And I feel like, I know there have been blowouts in the playoffs.
01:27The Knicks have done a great job, you know, being able to actually do that
01:32and put the pedal to the metal over the last week and a half.
01:34It would be nice if the Cavs would just come out and put a team away.
01:37But are they even capable of doing that?
01:38Dale Ryder in for Ken Carb.
01:40Also, Chris Fedor at 9 o'clock.
01:42Yeah, I think it's 2-2 after tonight.
01:46I think the Cavs do win tonight.
01:47Yes.
01:47You have that much confidence.
01:49Yes.
01:50Does that change anything for your thoughts on the series, though,
01:53if they end up tying this up 2-2?
01:55Yeah.
01:55If they tie it up 2-2, I think that there's a real possibility they finish it off.
02:02But, you know, they still have to play two in Detroit.
02:05I get it, but they only need to win one of them.
02:07Well, they haven't won a road game yet.
02:08They've won zero of them so far.
02:10I understand that.
02:11But 0 for 5.
02:12They won a couple road games last year in Miami.
02:14No, the last year.
02:16Oh, cool.
02:16But this year, they've not been able to do that.
02:18They're against a team with nine toes.
02:21And with a player who had nine toes.
02:22That's exactly right.
02:23So, just in general, in general, Daryl, like, what were the good things you saw in game
02:29three that makes you think that they could actually do this and turn this around?
02:34Better offensive flow.
02:36Better shot selection.
02:39Yes.
02:40Especially in that third quarter.
02:41I think they were 4 for 12 when the Pistons were able to make that run and erase that deficit.
02:47That was just a case of open looks not going down.
02:50That's basketball.
02:52That's going to happen, unfortunately.
02:53Right?
02:54So, and then also, too, them capitalizing more on Piston mistakes, which they had not done
03:04in the first two games of the series.
03:06They had a lot of empty possessions coming off Piston turnovers in games one and two,
03:11which frustrated me a little bit.
03:12Because when you're turning the ball over and you're giving up points on the scale that the
03:18Cavaliers were in the first two games, when you get those extra possessions yourself,
03:22you have to cash them in.
03:23You've got to take advantage of them.
03:24So, and also, too, the ball movement.
03:28I think the ball had a little more life in it offensively than the first two games.
03:32And again, I don't, I still struggle with the Jekyll and Hyde of playing at home versus
03:42playing on the road.
03:43Is it really the crowd noise?
03:46You know what I mean?
03:46Like, is it really the fact that maybe you don't have your plush, cushy locker room?
03:51Like, the disparity between the play, home versus road in the playoffs baffles me.
03:59It's the same sport.
04:00The lines are the same.
04:01No, still 10 feet from the floor, right?
04:04But, no, I think that the Cavaliers did some really good things Saturday night.
04:09But those red flags from games one and two, which is why I think you're sitting here this
04:13morning saying, yeah, I'm not exactly sold.
04:16They're still there.
04:17The turnovers are still there.
04:18They're still losing the possession battle.
04:20They lost the rebounding battle.
04:22Okay.
04:22James Harden had to save their backside.
04:24Lawman, Max Drews, they're in the final two and a half, three minutes of the game, right?
04:28Donovan Mitchell didn't close it out, even though he had a sensational game.
04:31Evan Mobley didn't close it out, even though he played really, really well.
04:34Okay.
04:35You had to turn to the 36-year-old James Harden, who has not been good.
04:41He's the reason you're down 0-2, and you had to have that one on Saturday.
04:44So, I think they win tonight, though.
04:45I do.
04:46I'm going to be positive.
04:47All right.
04:47Some positivity.
04:48I'm going to be positive.
04:49I'm going to be confident.
04:50This is going to be a tight series, and it will be game five that's going to determine
04:56who wins this series.
04:57Well, they've got to win a road one to have a shot to win this series, certainly.
05:02You have to win two.
05:032-1-6-4-7-4.
05:05Double-0-92.
05:05Okay.
05:06So, Dean Wade has been one of the focal points, and look, if you're relying on Dean
05:14Wade, I know he's in the starting lineup and has been in the starting lineup.
05:16We wondered if there was a chance he would be removed from the starting lineup.
05:20Kenny seemed like he was throwing stuff a little bit more against the wall.
05:24Obviously, in that game three win, Wade's minutes were cut to 17 after it had, you know, been
05:32north of 20 and even had reached upwards of 28 minutes, four different games so far in
05:37the playoffs.
05:37So, a quicker hook when it came to Dean Wade.
05:41Might you see more changes?
05:42Here was Atkinson over the weekend on the situation with the lineups.
05:47How should I say this?
05:48It was screw the rotations.
05:49It's like, we just got to feel this one out and find the rotation, find the players.
05:55Five guys are going to help us win.
05:56I'm usually pretty strict about staying on point with that and trying to distribute minutes,
06:01but tonight was like, you got to go get this one.
06:03Got to put your best players on the floor.
06:05Even if that was 15 minutes, stand straight.
06:08Didn't matter tonight.
06:09And I know if you're listening to that in the radio, you're shouting, why wouldn't you
06:11always have the best players on the floor?
06:12It sounded like he just, that just popped in his head for the first time in his life.
06:16And I feel like he's been around basketball a long time, right?
06:19You're right, right.
06:19Anyway, the light bulb just went off.
06:20He had a eureka moment.
06:22That didn't help me have any confidence in Kenny at all.
06:25He must have been listening to the station because I think when I was on with you guys,
06:32I griped about Kenny not extending his star players minutes.
06:37You have to do that in the playoffs.
06:39LeBron James, who's 41 years old, is playing between 37 and 40 minutes for the Lakers.
06:46He's got way more minutes than Donovan Mitchell so far in the playoffs.
06:49And I guess this is a question, they're not going to answer it honestly.
06:54But the answer that I really want is, can Donovan Mitchell only play a certain amount of minutes
07:04a game to be effective?
07:05Like, is he just a player that you cannot extend his minutes for?
07:12Because it almost feels that way.
07:14For as great of a player as he is, it feels like he just runs out of gas.
07:19So, optimization of Donovan, who we've seen having to put teams on his shoulders both in Utah and in Cleveland.
07:26And by the end of the playoff series, and he only has ever gotten to the second round, he's been
07:31on fumes.
07:32I mean, last year he was hobbling in that Indiana series and still performed magnificently.
07:36Got to the free throw line like crazy.
07:39Still had these big shooting performances.
07:41But you're like, man, even if they pulled this out, what would Donovan have left for the rest of the
07:46playoffs?
07:46So, I think they are keeping that in mind.
07:48But we're sitting there in the throws down 0-2.
07:51You've got to get there first.
07:52He's got to play.
07:53You can't worry about tomorrow because you might even get to tomorrow.
07:56So, I think it goes to show, like, you know, these teams this time of year, you have no super
08:00teams anymore that you do have to monitor some and manage some unfortunately imperfect situations.
08:11Like, whether you're starting Max Strews, all right, then you don't have his energy off the bench.
08:15And Max has trouble covering some of these guys.
08:18Makes the great plays, though, when it counts.
08:20And he's done that throughout the playoffs.
08:23We had talked about Sam Merrill starting.
08:25No one's really saying that now.
08:26But Jalen Tyson.
08:27All right, but Jalen Tyson loses track of his guys.
08:29So, he'll get up in your face and let you feel him.
08:31So, you just have a bunch of decisions that are not perfect decisions to make.
08:36You're putting weight in there to help you with defense because two of your starters don't play any.
08:41That's a big part of it.
08:42And he provides a leg.
08:43James Harden delivering after, I thought it looked like, after the first two games, that he borderline didn't belong in
08:52the league.
08:53That's how bad it was, the opening games.
08:55And I don't even think I am overreacting.
08:57Like, he couldn't dribble.
08:59He couldn't defend.
09:01And the shots weren't falling.
09:03What place do you have in the league if that's the case and you're 36 years old?
09:06Well, he definitely didn't look like he belonged handling the ball at the end of the game.
09:10No.
09:11And then, I don't know what transformation happened.
09:14I also saw Donovan Mitchell seem to have some interesting, unusual recovery out of nowhere where he looked like he
09:22had to bounce back in his step.
09:23I mean, they're playing every other day.
09:25So, I remember Kobe Bryant used to do everything he could, would, like, go overseas, come back, experiment with things.
09:34There'd be some whispers.
09:36What the heck happened there?
09:36I don't know.
09:37The Donovan and James I saw in game three, that gives me hope that they actually got a shot.
09:45I don't know what it was.
09:46Either way.
09:46I don't know what you're trying to insinuate here, Anthony.
09:48Either way.
09:49It was unbelievable.
09:50Just being there.
09:51And, look, the crowd, when the ball's in James' hand at the end of the game, like, we're all sitting
09:56there going, this is it?
09:57Like, he's not, nobody else is moving, nobody is coming to set a screen, this is it.
10:03It's going to be James Harden, sink or swim, and wouldn't you know, he ends up cashing in on all
10:11of them.
10:11It got trucked on one of them, by the way, the Tobias Harris one that we just played there got
10:15absolutely trucked.
10:17No foul call.
10:18Somehow made it, and it went in and they won the game.
10:20So, are you having faith, Daryl?
10:22Are you having faith that if the situation repeats itself tonight at about 11.15, that that is going to
10:31go through?
10:31Listen, I'm the one sitting here saying it's going to be 2-2.
10:3511.30 tonight, the series is going to be tied at 2.
10:38Okay.
10:38I love it.
10:39By the way, All Cavs Conversations brought to you by Surfside.
10:42Hard Ice T.
10:43So, a lot has been talked about when it comes to James Harden.
10:47I thought he was unbelievable when they traded for him.
10:51Then the Toronto series, I thought he weathered the storm, turned the ball over way too much, but overall, I
10:56think he was a net positive.
10:58And I wondered if they had the other point guard, whether they would have beaten Toronto.
11:04But then the first two games was so abysmal, I could not justify what I was watching.
11:09And I thought, Kenny had to have a quick hook on James.
11:13Ends up playing 40 minutes.
11:15Oh, well, after game two, I think I posted or I had said, like, James should play 20 minutes in
11:22game three.
11:23Like, this is put up or shut up time.
11:25We're not messing around here.
11:27You know what the conversation is going to be this offseason?
11:30Right.
11:31It's besides the Donovan contract situation.
11:34And the Kenny situation.
11:37You want to go on?
11:39Whether or not Evan Mobley is going to be on the team.
11:42And Yannis.
11:44But, oh, power, power.
11:46You want to power?
11:46Go ahead and say what you're going to say.
11:51It is whether or not it would be beneficial for Harden to opt out so that the Cavs could sign
11:58him for two or three years.
11:59And it seemed like anybody who covers the league and privy to the types of discussions that are had between
12:06executives,
12:07it was that he is tearing up.
12:09He's going to decline the option, the $45 or so million this year.
12:13And it was going to be a 2-4, 90-something million dollars.
12:18And after the first two games of this series, I was like, well, they can't do that.
12:21They physically can't do that.
12:23Well, I'll be honest with you.
12:25As I said here this morning, I think they can't do that.
12:27And, like, that aspect of it hasn't changed.
12:30Yeah, what is he going to look like?
12:32This trade was always about the here and now.
12:34I mean, we knew that when they made the trade and you went 9 to 10 years older,
12:39that this was not for three years from now.
12:40This was for immediately.
12:42Why?
12:43Because Donovan is pushing for something.
12:46Help me.
12:46I need help.
12:47I need help.
12:48Not, hey, where are we at in three years?
12:50Because you don't know if Donovan Mitchell is going to be here in three years.
12:53And Donovan probably doesn't want to sit around and wait for three years.
12:55He's not going to do that.
12:56And it's similar to, like, the Evan thing.
12:59Like, the Donovan trade escalated or pushed into fast-forward Evan Mobley's situation
13:07with his development and the expectations for him.
13:10The clock on him.
13:12Yeah.
13:12Right?
13:13It threw everything into, like, fast-forward mode.
13:17Right?
13:17So, with James Harden now, it's all the chips are to the center of the table.
13:24And they better get it done.
13:27Or else.
13:28We know what they...
13:29And getting it done is what?
13:30I just want to be clear.
13:32Conference finals.
13:34Okay.
13:34Minimum.
13:35Some have, you know, changed their perspective on it.
13:38Now, the Knicks are looking like the team that we thought the Boston Celtics might be.
13:42Right.
13:42The Knicks are looking like that.
13:44You'll be...
13:45Whoever wins this series is going to be an underdog now.
13:47And I didn't think that would be the case.
13:49Yeah.
13:49I mean, the Knicks are going to sit around for...
13:51It could be eight days if this series goes seven.
13:53Yeah.
13:53Eight days.
13:54So...
13:54Think about how crazy that is.
13:55But...
13:56And I think also, with this Cavs team, they have struggled with the expectation thing.
14:05Like, it's not about being happy to be here.
14:10LeBron 2.0.
14:11That was a pressure cooker of a four years.
14:13It was NBA championship or your season was a failure.
14:16Yeah.
14:17Not finals or bust.
14:18Right.
14:18Title or bust.
14:19Yeah.
14:19Like, and as unfair as that is, right?
14:23Because winning a championship is so hard to do.
14:25But, like, with this team, it's conference finals or bust.
14:28Your season's been a failure.
14:29The hardened trade would have been a failure if they can't get past this round.
14:35And then you have to ask the serious questions about, well, what else can we do to get through
14:41the conference semifinals?
14:43Because this will be the third straight year.
14:45So, there's so much pressure on this team with the expectations that I think that that's
14:53something that they struggle a little bit to deal with.
14:56Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, Donovan Mitchell to a degree, James Harden.
15:02Like, there's a lot of pressure on James Harden.
15:04From the Cavs' perspective, you gave up a lot.
15:07You gave up nine years, basically, right, with Darius Carr.
15:10Even though Darius is fragile as China, okay, the wind blows and he has to sit out for three
15:17weeks.
15:17Oh, Daryl, come on.
15:19Save the cheap shots.
15:20It's the reality.
15:22It's unfortunate.
15:22When he's healthy, he's a dynamic player.
15:24The problem is he's never healthy.
15:27So, you know, it just, it has escalated all of this.
15:30And I do think that the pressure thing is real and how to handle that pressure.
15:37And is, you know, can Kenny Atkinson be that coach to help them handle it?
15:42Because, quite frankly, through three games, I think it's fair to say J.B. Bickerstaff
15:47has gotten the best of Kenny Atkinson.
15:50Yeah, no question.
15:51I think that has been the case.
15:53I think that's why we started this conversation talking about potential lineup changes.
15:57Why did the Cavs fire J.B.?
15:59Because they wanted to bring in a coach to get him to the next level.
16:02Yeah, they couldn't get over the hump.
16:03The irony of J.B. ending the season for the guy that replaced him.
16:13It would be a worst-case scenario.
16:14It's the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
16:16And meanwhile, the other former Cavs coach two times over, they look like the hottest
16:20team going, certainly in the Easter Conference and maybe the second most in the entire league.
16:24Meanwhile, on Inside the NBA, Shaquille O'Neal, is he buying what we saw, that it's something
16:33that can be replicated with James Harden in the clutch?
16:36He played well.
16:37I'm happy for him.
16:38Now the question is, can you continue to do it?
16:40And you continue to go up from here because over the past years, we'll see one good game
16:45and then we'll see four or five bad games.
16:47So definitely got to win the next one at home.
16:49Definitely got to start winning on the road.
16:50So he was bought there for a championship, not to make him better or go to the Eastern
16:55Conference Finals.
16:56When that trade was made, we realized that the backcourt was super dynamic because they
17:01were already dynamic.
17:02But when you add James Harden, now we've become super dynamic.
17:04So he really hasn't had a great game, but today was a good game and hopefully this jump
17:09starts him to do what we expect him to do.
17:12Audio courtesy of ESPN.
17:13Yeah, I thought it was a good game.
17:16Wasn't a great game.
17:17And I don't know, quite honestly, I don't know how many great games he's capable of,
17:21you know, from here on out.
17:23It only gets tougher every series.
17:25It was peculiar that he looked like he had never dribbled the basketball before in that
17:31second game.
17:32And then he looked as confident as I've seen James Harden in the final minutes.
17:37Like he was throwing that ball between his legs and setting up Tobias Harris and just
17:44needs that little window.
17:45It's something you take for granted because you've seen James do it a zillion times.
17:50But the way that he can break down a player who's in a defensive stance right in front
17:56of him just enough that he can get that shot off by just a thing, like right over the fingertips
18:03of these defenders in their outstretched arms.
18:06It is amazing to see in person.
18:07There's one trend that I've paid attention to with the Cavs in this postseason, and that's
18:15getting the ball up the backcourt.
18:18They come awfully close.
18:20Was it a little better in game three?
18:22It's kind of agonizing.
18:24It really is.
18:25You remember, it's not a 10-second count anymore.
18:27Well, ever since that Toronto, since the eighth second in Toronto, I've been a little shaky
18:33on that stuff.
18:34I watch that clock intently now, and they have had...
18:38They're borderline, right?
18:39It's very borderline.
18:41A couple times I thought they made it past it.
18:43And it almost seems like they give you...
18:45It's like the NFL's play clock, right?
18:47They give you the extra count.
18:48If you're moving across the timeline, they give you that extra, but if you're behind
18:54the timeline still...
18:55Well, especially if there's no pressure.
18:57That's the thing.
18:57You know, it'd be one thing if you're getting pressured, and the other team's making it a
19:02little more difficult.
19:03Like the Donovan example, they were doing the run and jump.
19:05You shouldn't need three exchanges in the backcourt.
19:08It's incredible that...
19:09Just get the ball over the timeline.
19:12Get into your offense.
19:13Compare that to the other teams in the league that are sprinting off your makes.
19:18How many times have the Cavs given up buckets after makes?
19:22Normally, it's like, all right, we scored, retreat, get your defense set, and at least
19:28provide some roadblocks for the opposing offense.
19:32Instead, we score it.
19:35Harden's on the ground, or Donovan's on the ground, and a beautiful floater, and they got
19:39numbers the other way.
19:40And it's like, we don't do that to anybody.
19:42When did the Cavs, except when we went with the Schroeder, Max Drews, Sam Merrill.
19:49Okay, those are the lineups that can actually do that.
19:52The problem with those lineups are you can only play them so many minutes.
19:54Right.
19:55You're not going to get away with it.
19:56That's not in your DNA.
19:57The other teams, their starters can do it.
20:00And they're always looking to push.
20:01But after every piston make, I find myself just watching the shot clock as the Cavs are
20:08bringing the ball up, and I'm just waiting for eight-second calls.
20:11I know.
20:11Because they seem to cut it close every single time.
20:15And again, they have three and four exchanges in the backcourt, and I don't get it.
20:20Just get the ball in, run it over the timeline, and go.
20:23What did you think, Daryl, of Evan Mobley's performance in that game?
20:28Because I think people look at the box score, and they say,
20:31all right, well, he scored 13 points.
20:35Yeah, I had two blocks, whatever.
20:37I thought he was elite defensively in that game.
20:41I thought he did a good job, really.
20:43Did the broadcast, you were at home.
20:45Did the broadcast talk about that?
20:46Because with Wemby, it's obvious, right?
20:49You don't even need to talk about it.
20:50You watch Wemby, who got tossed out of yesterday's game, and we're waiting to see if the NBA is
20:54going to suspend him, as Minnesota is up.
20:56He should be suspended for that.
20:58Some Meta World piece gets suspended for like five games.
21:00Seven games.
21:01Seven games, yeah.
21:02So I just know, like, when Wemby's doing it, it is different.
21:06It's different.
21:07It is just different.
21:07He is deterring everything.
21:09He'd just be the same height as regular people, and it wouldn't be a problem.
21:12Yeah, it's just very...
21:13It'd be in the gut.
21:13It's unfair.
21:14It's unfair right now.
21:15I thought Evan did a great job rerouting the Pistons in the paint.
21:19Yes.
21:20I really did.
21:21I thought that that's...
21:22I mean, and that's what they really need for him.
21:24I know we talk a lot about the rim protection, the rebounding, and all that.
21:28He had eight rebounds, blocked a couple shots.
21:31But I think the difference was, he made the Pistons move around him, instead of him having
21:38to move himself to chase them.
21:43You didn't see him get bodied into the rim, like we had seen earlier in the series, like
21:48we had seen throughout, quite honestly, the entire Toronto series.
21:52Saturday, he was much, much better than the first two games in this series, defensively.
21:55And look, you know, there were some times he got matched up with Kate Cunningham.
21:59And I gotta give the Cavs credit in this accord.
22:02Like, we were worried defensively.
22:04Like, this Cavs defense that in years past was one of the elite defenses in the NBA.
22:10Why hadn't they been able to harken back to that at all?
22:14And I think you've seen shades.
22:16Like, they have made life really hard on Kate.
22:18Now, with the game on the line, like, Kate came right down and scored.
22:20And Max Strews is gonna just have his work cut out for him.
22:22Maybe you need to send him some different looks.
22:24But I think they have challenged him throughout this series.
22:27And don't count this out.
22:29One factor I'm looking that could sway the series potentially to the Cavs.
22:34We've talked so much about Donovan Mitchell and James Harden wearing down.
22:38What about Kate Cunningham wearing down?
22:40His usage is astronomical.
22:42The ball's in his hands the entire game.
22:44And he has not been an efficient scorer.
22:46He still has made a huge difference for them.
22:47And he's why they're up two games to one.
22:49But can he wear down?
22:50And can Tobias Harris start to weigh down?
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