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Giants beat writer Dan Duggan joins the show to give his thoughts on the Dexter Lawrence trade and preview New York's pair of top 10 draft picks.
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00:00Joining us now, Dan Duggan from New York covers the Giants for the Athletic.
00:05Dan, what's up, man?
00:06Thanks for making time on a busy week.
00:08Yeah, I think I should go to a weekly spot.
00:09The Giants are just so darn interesting.
00:11You got to keep coming on to discuss this team.
00:14Well, dude, it's funny because I remember talking with you and Pat in Arizona
00:19about this Dex thing, and you both kind of were like,
00:22I don't think it's going away, right?
00:25Dexter Lawrence being unhappy with the organization,
00:28this has been going on for some time, right?
00:31Yeah, and it's kind of how it always goes with these things.
00:34You kind of hear whispers or rumblings in real time,
00:37and then once it's finished, you kind of get the full picture.
00:39So now you're starting to hear kind of how deep sort of the contentiousness was
00:44where, you know, we knew last year they didn't just give them $3 million
00:47in incentives on the eve of training camp because of their heart.
00:50That was obviously something sort of a peace offering
00:53because he was pushing for more.
00:54But I think he just came to realize that I think the way that was handled,
00:57where I think it was sort of dismissed, like, hey, listen,
00:59you're in a contract.
01:00We're not doing anything.
01:01And they threw my bone.
01:02And then this year, I think sort of the same feeling of like, yeah,
01:05you've got two years left.
01:06You're coming off a down year, not interested in paying you.
01:08And that's when things just really, really kicked into overdrive
01:12because, yeah, we saw each other.
01:13They said the orders would be just like, what, the end of March?
01:15And then it was the next week when the off-season program is about to kick off
01:19is when they kind of put the pedal to the metal with the public trade request.
01:22And really, you kind of started to sense at that point,
01:24it was at a point of no return.
01:26Still wasn't sure if trade would happen, though,
01:28because I didn't know if they were going to get a strong enough offer.
01:30Obviously, once the 10th pick was on the table,
01:33I think it was everyone probably looked at it as a win-win for all sides.
01:36He gets out of here.
01:37The Bengals obviously get a player to try and help them get over the hump.
01:40And so the Giants, they got a premium pick for a guy who, you know,
01:43wasn't happy here.
01:44Was there a situation where Harbaugh tried to make things better
01:49and noticed that it just was too far gone?
01:51Yeah, and that's why it's tough for him,
01:53because he came in and inherited this mess.
01:55You know, a lot of these hard feelings have been built up for a long time.
01:58A lot of it's between, you know, the battle general manager, Joe Shane.
02:01So, yeah, Harbaugh, when he first came in,
02:03said he had some, you know, basically introductory conversation with Dexter.
02:06But once it shifted to business, it was like, all right, talk to my agent.
02:10And the agent handled everything.
02:11He's got Joel Siegel, you know, one of the top agents in the game.
02:13He's been through this type of thing many times.
02:15So he kind of knew the playbook, wasn't going to let Harbaugh try and go back door
02:20and talk Dexter into doing anything.
02:22Like, he was running points on everything.
02:24So I think Harbaugh kind of knew.
02:26He tried to talk to Joel Siegel, I'm sure, and try to make something happen.
02:29But when the side is so dug in and there was so much kind of water under the bridge
02:34there where, like, Dexter wasn't going to be able to just easily swayed by, like,
02:37a coach saying, hey, we really, you know, have a vision for you here.
02:39Like, nah, there's too much bad blood.
02:41Didn't like the way things had gone down.
02:43At the end, it just felt like he was looking for a change of scenery.
02:47And now it seems like Thibodeau could be on the move.
02:51I'm just looking at your Twitter feed.
02:52Everybody should follow Dan, at DanDuggan21.
02:56I would say Kayvon Thibodeau never really lived up to the draft status.
03:01Although, damn, he's been good against Washington.
03:03I remember he almost ripped Taylor Heineke's head off once.
03:07Yeah.
03:08What do you think happens with Thibodeau?
03:11Yeah, no, I mean, that came out, you know, you were happy to put out that, like,
03:14they're less likely to trade him.
03:15All that tells me is the offers haven't been strong enough because they have been very willing
03:18to listen at the same time.
03:20It's a little similar to Dex.
03:22Obviously, he's not nearly the caliber of player.
03:23You're not going to get that type of return.
03:25But they're not just going to give him away.
03:26Like, he's under contract.
03:27He's a solid player.
03:29I think probably the fact he did just trade that slants.
03:32Do you want to take another solid piece of your defense?
03:35You know, out of the equation, that's what will probably suffer the stomach.
03:37So, they've always got a higher asking price than I think they're ever going to realistically
03:41get.
03:41Like, they're not getting a second-round pick.
03:43I don't even think they're getting a third-round pick.
03:44I think they would have to probably pull the trigger on a third-round pick.
03:47But if you're talking gate-free picks, if you're them, you know, I don't think there's
03:51really much incentive to make that move.
03:52Again, you just have traded, you know, a team piece of your defense.
03:55You know, Thibodeau wasn't as important as Lawrence, but he's still a good player.
03:58And you have time here.
03:59Like, the trade deadline, let's say, there's going to be a contender that needs a pass rusher.
04:03You can probably get the same level pick you're going to get now, you know, in six months.
04:07And then the benefit, obviously, you give yourself a chance and see how it goes.
04:10If he comes out and plays great, then, you know, maybe the asking price goes up.
04:13Or maybe you somehow want to keep him.
04:15Or the comp pick comes in next year.
04:16There's a lot of variables there where I think if they're not going to get a strong offer
04:19right now, they're really not compelled to make a move.
04:21Do you think any of these moves, well, the move with, you know, Dexter Lawrence, is that
04:28a move that makes their approach in the draft change up?
04:32I mean, it adds a wild card thing.
04:35You know, I've been sitting here for the last hundred months.
04:36I said, what are they going to do at five?
04:37And now, oh, now you're going to try to do what they're going to do at ten.
04:39You know, that's not something I was thinking of.
04:42You kind of had, you said you were kind of honing in on what they might do at five.
04:45And, oh, see, that doesn't change.
04:46But ten, it's wide open now.
04:48I think the way I look at it first and foremost, they're going to pick five, ten, and 37.
04:52And then no third round pick.
04:53I'm convinced they're going to trade one of those picks, at least, to pick up something else
04:58in the second or third round, like fill in that big gap they have between their second
05:01and fourth round picks.
05:03Maybe it's not five.
05:04Maybe at five, they feel like they're such a premium player there.
05:06Like, they love Jeremiah Lov or Sonny Siles or whatever.
05:09They take him.
05:10But now at ten, it's like, this is kind of a bonus pick.
05:12We can move back a few spots, maybe pick up a third round pick or whatever.
05:15I can see that in play.
05:16But, yeah, I don't know what they're going to do at ten because, again,
05:19I just haven't really been looking at that caliber of prospect very much.
05:22I mean, I think maybe a dream scenario for some fans would be just double up on Ohio State defenders.
05:26You get 25,5 and a Caleb Downs 5-10.
05:30The wide receivers come in here to play.
05:32Like, there's been a lot of Jordan Tyson smoke lately, which I usually am resistant to buy into, like,
05:37the late buzz.
05:38But he's a little different because he's been hurt.
05:40He's just had his workout.
05:41Joe Shane flew across the country.
05:42Had dinner with him.
05:43Like, there is some of these Fred Trumps that indicate there might be some interest.
05:47And they need a wide receiver because other than like, Nabors is pretty weak.
05:50And Nabors is still, if you don't win, he'll be healthy.
05:53So, it definitely has made things a little more complicated in the sense that, yeah,
05:57that tenth pick could go a variety of directions.
06:00It's really interesting to me.
06:02And we're talking with our friend Dan Duggan here on the Rude Guest Hotline.
06:06You give Dan a follow at dduggan21.
06:09Check out all of his work in the athletic.
06:11Interestingly enough, Dan, you kind of nailed exactly where the, at least where the Lawrence money would come down to,
06:17at $28 million for the one year in your Giants, whatever you call it, your off-season plan to fix
06:23the Giants.
06:24You nailed that, dude.
06:26But having 5 and 10, I wonder now that they know they have the backstop at 10.
06:33Like, is an offensive lineman, it's got to be a need up there, right?
06:37Especially with Dart and his recklessness.
06:40Like, can they just go with whatever they want at 5, knowing they can get one of these?
06:45There's kind of like four tackles to me that have emerged from the pack here.
06:50It's guys that are going to go in the first round.
06:52Guys that would be reasonable at 10.
06:54Do you think that could be a strategy?
06:57Yeah.
06:57No, I mean, it's very interesting.
06:58That's probably the one scenario I didn't outline when I was running through all the different things they could do.
07:03I think off of the line, I'd be pretty surprised if they went to 5, but 10, I think it
07:07very much does enter the equation.
07:09But it's just an interesting, the way they've gone about this off-season up front, where they re-signed Jermaine
07:15Illuminor.
07:15It's got pretty good value on that deal, too.
07:17But so, you have him locked in at right tackle for at least the next two years.
07:20It's a three-year deal.
07:22And obviously, you have Andrew Thomas at left tackle.
07:24So, I think that kind of takes them out of prioritizing a tackle.
07:27But we've seen plenty of times where a team takes a guy who played tackle in college, either you shoot
07:32him into guard, you know, forever, or you do it for a year or two, and then maybe he bumps
07:35out and takes over for Luminor.
07:37So, I think I could see that.
07:39I'm just not sure if it's going to line up because, you know, with Maui Oga, there's the back stuff
07:44that's come up now, and I don't know how much I'm concerned that's going to be for them.
07:47Well, yeah, that might be.
07:49Be careful because, you know, this is the time of the year when the lines start to flow.
07:53True, true.
07:54And that's why I feel like I'm playing catch-up because guys like him and Fennel and the Penn State
07:59guard, they couldn't give me a Joe Smith in this draft, huh?
08:02But, you know, the Penn State guard, I don't know where they feel on those guys.
08:07So, it wasn't ever considering them at five.
08:09But now with 10, I think that does enter the equation.
08:11I've always got 37 as part of the sweet spot for them to take a guard.
08:15But, again, now that they have that second first-round pick, I think that does open up more options.
08:19And to your point, I think they need to address the offensive line more seriously than they have.
08:23They're kind of throwing, like, numbers at it with a lot of cheap signings, bringing back Evan Neal, bringing in
08:28Philele from the Ravens.
08:30Like, none of that, to me, is very inspiring.
08:32But it almost feels like they might be convincing themselves one of these guys will emerge, will add a guy,
08:38you know, say, in the second round, maybe he'll develop, and they'll be able to pass together.
08:41I don't think that should be the approach.
08:42And maybe they deep down feel that way, too, and that's why they're going to use the 10th pick on
08:46a guy.
08:49How much of an option is love at five for them?
08:52I think he's very real.
08:54I think, actually, you know, I met one of these guys, you know, went through all the fake one.
08:58I'm not a big believer in taking a running back that high.
09:00And so, from my view, they make it safe for themselves, though, because everything you're hearing is the Cardinals and
09:05the Titans are really hot on him.
09:06So, I don't know if he even gets the five.
09:08But I would say if things break, you know, and he's there at five, he'd probably be my top choice
09:14for what I think they will do.
09:15Like, I really do think there's real love there.
09:18You know, Harbaugh comes in, talking about Melinda Savick, this whole physical team, and run-first offense, all that.
09:25Like, he obviously would fit that.
09:27You know, they need to upgrade their playmakers.
09:28And if you're a little shaky on the wide receivers in this draft, well, then go get the best running
09:33back.
09:33You can call him a weapon.
09:34And we've kind of seen how that's gone for teams and has been successful, obviously, with a guy like Gibbs
09:39and Detroit, probably the best example in recent years.
09:41So, yeah, I think he is very much in play at five.
09:44I just, the more you kind of, you know, you see the rumblings from our league, he might not even
09:49get that far.
09:50It's going to, I mean, now you're, to see Schefter throw out love at three to Arizona is really pretty
09:58wild.
10:00Two names that I've always thought make sense for the Giants, knowing John Harbaugh's history, are a pair of Ohio
10:06State defenders in Sonny Stiles and Caleb Downs.
10:11How much does the organization like Stiles and or Downs?
10:17Yeah, and I think they like them both a lot.
10:19And this is one of those things where, when I was a friend of Tyson earlier, you get nervous when
10:23you start buying in too much for, like, the last week.
10:25Oh, they love so-and-so.
10:27Whereas with Stiles and Downs, I feel like the interest has been pretty steady and consistent from the outside of
10:31the process.
10:32So, I'm a little more confident that that's genuine because, you know, they're not making that up at the last
10:37second to spend time with these guys.
10:38I mean, you saw, well, you guys might not have been paying attention.
10:41I was when they were at Ohio State's Pro Day.
10:43You know, Harbaugh spent a lot of time talking to those guys.
10:46So, I think there's a real chance that they could just do a double dip.
10:49And I think there's a lot worse ways you can come out of 5 and 10 than getting, you know,
10:53the best inside linebacker in the draft, the best safety in the draft for defense that, you know, is shaky
10:58to begin with and just, you know, took a major blow with losing Lawrence.
11:02Again, there are a lot worse ways to come out of this.
11:03I think, you know, I did my final mock draft, whatever that's worth, and I gave him Stiles at 5.
11:08And even in the simulation, I did Downs available at 10.
11:12And I kind of maybe went against my instincts.
11:14I went with Tyson because I do think maybe they split the difference and, like, all right, we'll get a
11:17defensive player and then we'll get an offensive player because at the end of the day, we still need to
11:20support Jackson Dart and give him weapons.
11:22But I would not be surprised at all if it does shake out like that, that it's Stiles and Downs.
11:26And I think you have to be happy with that of your Giants thing because, I mean, I think that's
11:29two big pieces to get this defense turned around in this sort of new era.
11:33And obviously, they're not going to play next to Lawrence, but if he's, you know, fortified on the part for
11:37the defense, it can mitigate his departure.
11:40Which side of the ball you think is more vital that they improve?
11:45I mean, they can go either way.
11:47It's like one of those blessing and a curse because I don't think they're so strong on either side.
11:51They're good on defense, they're focused on offense.
11:54I would say defense is probably more, if they just had five, I would have thought that was, like, definitely
11:59where they'd go.
11:59That's why I think they might be able to split the difference and that 10th pick helps them out.
12:02And they can, I don't think they're going to roll the dice on a wide receiver if they only had
12:05picked five.
12:06But now, if you say, all right, we got Stiles at five, we got Caleb Downs at five, whatever it
12:10may be, then we can, you know, use that 10th pick on a receiver.
12:13But I personally, I think defense is a little bit more of a dire need, especially how I think the
12:19board will match up.
12:20Because I don't know if there's a ton of wide receivers that are worth the fifth pick or maybe even
12:23the 10th pick.
12:24And kind of mentioned on the O-line, certainly I don't think we'll be in play at five.
12:28But they have a lot of options now.
12:30They certainly made Thursday a heck of a lot more interesting.
12:33And, you know, I'm interested to see how it shakes out.
12:36A couple still draft things, but not necessarily who are they going to take, right?
12:41Because I don't think any of us know.
12:43I think the love stuff is such a wild card.
12:46I mean, New York likes him at five.
12:48He's a great player.
12:49Washington likes him at seven.
12:50He's a great player.
12:51He might not be there.
12:51They might pass because you still have to deal with the running back side of it.
12:54Yeah.
12:55I am curious, though, knowing the intense scrutiny Joe Shane is under and knowing what the Giants probably had to
13:04promise and pay John Harbaugh to take that job.
13:07Who has the final say Thursday night?
13:09Like, if Harbaugh wants styles and Shane thinks loves the guy, who wins out?
13:16Oh, yeah, that's John Harbaugh.
13:17I mean, there's a reason why.
13:19I think if you remember that timeline, it got announced that he was the head coach on, like, a Wednesday
13:23night, and they didn't put pen to paper until, like, Saturday afternoon.
13:26Pretty much that preceding 72 hours was hammering this type of thing out, where he was not coming here and
13:31reporting to Joe Shane and being number two in the organizational power structure, which is the way the Giants have
13:37always had him.
13:37Maybe coaches like Bill Parcells and Tom Coughlin, the GM, was still above them on the power structure of the
13:43organization.
13:44He was not coming here to do that.
13:45But, I mean, I guess theoretically they're on the same plane, but one guy's coming in here, you know, with
13:50a potential Hall of Fame pedigree.
13:53The other guy's barely hanging on his job with a 22-45-1 record running the show.
13:57So, I think Joe Shane will fall in line.
14:00Now, they've all said it's just been such a great collaboration.
14:03Everything works so smoothly.
14:05That sounds great.
14:06We'll see how things shake up maybe after the draft.
14:08But, as far as Thursday night, I cannot imagine a scenario where Joe Shane is going to dig his heels
14:13in.
14:14If John Harbaugh has conviction on a guy, he's going to have to go along to get along.
14:17And I think that's just the way this organization is going to run going forward.
14:22It's this Harbaugh show.
14:23Yeah, I think that's kind of what I thought, certainly.
14:26We're talking with our friend Dan Duggan from The Athletic.
14:29Covers the New York Giants.
14:30Does a great job.
14:31Read all of his work in The Athletic.
14:32Give him a follow at D Duggan.
14:34Two G's.
14:35D-U-G-G-A-N-21.
14:38I have, like, a reporter question for you, just like a – because the business we've chosen, to quote The
14:45Godfather, means news can break at any time and you just got to work, right?
14:48But this Dexter Lawrence trade happened – you live on the East Coast.
14:52We live on the East Coast.
14:54Saturday was an absolutely gorgeous day.
14:56It was, like, a gorgeous spring day.
14:59I had played golf that day.
15:01I had enjoyed my Saturday.
15:03Saturday, and when I saw that trade go down, I was like, damn, I feel bad for Giants reporters.
15:09What kind of shape were you in Saturday night, 830, when that trade goes down, or did you have a
15:14feeling it may have happened, so maybe you hadn't cracked that third beer yet?
15:18Oh, wow.
15:18That's not going to be the best person to do.
15:20I don't know how much time you get, because I can paint the whole picture.
15:23I'm like, do it.
15:23Pay it away.
15:24All right, so I got a 7-year-old and a 5-year-old.
15:27One Saturday night, that state night, we had to drop them off at the after-school program.
15:31There's, like, a thing where we watch the kids on Saturday night.
15:34We also have a brand-new Bernice Mountain Dog puppy, which, trust me, the women in the house made that
15:39decision, not me.
15:40But we left the dog alone, went out to dinner, dropped the kids off.
15:44We come home.
15:45It's right around 8 o'clock.
15:46I have actually an agent calling me.
15:48He's like, hey, I hear that they're trading Dexter Lawrence, the Bengals, that's a chatter.
15:52I'm like, what?
15:53That blinds out of me.
15:54I'm trying to track that down.
15:56But meanwhile, as you walk in the house, you leave a puppy alone for a couple hours.
15:59I don't even take the picture too vividly, but it was a bad thing.
16:01Yeah, we could tell.
16:04So I'm like to my wife, like, all right, you got to deal with that.
16:07I got to go take, make these phone calls.
16:08I'm in the background making phone calls while she's doing God knows what with the dog's pet,
16:13and my kids are, you know, up way past their bedtime.
16:15It was pretty much a disaster.
16:17And, JP, as you know, in this field, like, the calls come at inopportune times,
16:21and that was certainly one where I kind of, like, sheep has become my wife, like,
16:25and all the way, like, yeah, sorry, that was pretty big news, but I hope you're hanging in there.
16:29The only blessing is it won't fall on my summer now.
16:32That's the key, because there's nothing worse than having a contract dispute hang over your summer,
16:37because then it's like you're at the beach, and you have to make sure you have service and check your
16:40phone.
16:40Like, I remember the Saquon franchise tag saga a couple years ago.
16:44That was brutal.
16:44So at least, hey, we got to be able to take over your summer.
16:51Nah, he's not big enough.
16:52That's fine.
16:53You know what, I don't get to that when I get home from the beach,
16:55but I'm always glad this will revolve pretty quickly.
16:58Yeah, I know it was a messy Saturday night, more ways than one.
17:00So the Duggan family, I imagine Dan Duggan's feeling pretty good about his chances, Brian.
17:06The kids are going to an activity.
17:09We're going out to dinner.
17:10It's a Saturday night.
17:12Nobody's got to wake up early.
17:14Your chances, you're feeling good going out to dinner.
17:18At least in my personal experience, when I have to blow off a nice event with my wife,
17:24and then I try to recoup some of that good energy an hour, 90 minutes later,
17:29the good energy is lost.
17:31It's gone.
17:32I mean, you don't have it with a puppy.
17:34There was no good energy left at the end of that night, believe me.
17:37I'm sorry, dude.
17:37I'm sorry, man.
17:38Well, listen, man, I hope this week goes great.
17:40It's going to be really interesting to see what the Giants do.
17:425 and 10, man, that is serious firepower.
17:45So you'll be busy this week, but hopefully it quiets down after that.
17:49Yeah, and hopefully the puppy with the house broken.
17:51Yeah, good luck with that, dude.
17:53That's its own thing.
17:55Thank you, man.
17:55Appreciate the time.
17:57All right, thanks, guys.
17:57All right, man.
17:58That is Dan Duggan from The Athletic, covers the Giants.
18:01Busy week for the New York Giants, man.
18:035 and 10.
18:04John Harbaugh's got to get it right.
18:06Nobody go anywhere.
18:07Stallion has some by-our-self thoughts for us when we return.
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