- 5 hours ago
Shan, RJ, and Bobby took a look at alternative options for safety if Caleb Downs is off the board. They discussed the growing belief that the "Big Nickel" is a priority, other safety prospects, potential trade-up scenarios, and more.
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00:00All right, if Caleb Downs is not there and Jonathan Jones, CBS NFL insider, had something to say about that,
00:05how do we get Christian Parker his pocket knife?
00:08Yeah, so there's a total right now that the big question is, you know, a lot of people want Caleb
00:14Downs to get down to the Cowboys.
00:15Can you get Caleb Downs down to the Cowboys? And if you're not, how are you then addressing this nickel
00:20position?
00:20So I'm curious real quick, you've been a fan of Downs and that's kind of become your dream at this
00:27point after watching some of these players.
00:30So I'm more of a fan of Downs. And I say this about the, you know, I said this about
00:35the dating world.
00:37I'm more of a fan because of his mind than his body.
00:42Oh, did you say that?
00:45Holy cow.
00:45I'm a fan of his brains. I'm not looking at him going, oh, my God, that's a heat seeking missile.
00:51Oh, my God, that's Sean Taylor. Oh, my God, that's Steve Atwater.
00:55Oh, my God, that's Ed Reed or Troy Palomalo.
00:57I am a little bit worried of how small he is, but if he can organize the defense, his anticipation
01:04makes up for anything lacking physically.
01:08I'm in love with his smarts.
01:10Look at that.
01:10Same with Stiles, really.
01:12If it's not him.
01:13Even though Stiles is like the physically imposing nine and a half that's supposed to be walking.
01:17Yeah, but like Broaddus has said, he should go in the fifth round, I think is what Brian said consistently
01:22about Sonny Stiles.
01:24Is that a position that you think you have to go get if you don't get downs?
01:31Am I getting Stiles?
01:35No, let's just say you end up with Delane at 12.
01:38Whatever.
01:38Do you think you need to get somebody to play safety nickel hybrid for you?
01:42Or do you think they signed Jalen Thompson?
01:43They got guys who can kind of do this.
01:45Yeah, I don't think you have to.
01:46Okay.
01:46Chop, would you say that that's a priority to you right now for them?
01:50Corner's my top priority.
01:51I could do without it.
01:52I mean, look, obviously it's a position that you do need.
01:55There's no doubt about it.
01:56And if you get somebody that can play the position as well as he can, great.
01:59I mean, the Cowboys have really treated it like you don't really need the position.
02:03Yeah, they have treated it that way.
02:04Which they have shifted a little bit, it seems like, this offseason.
02:06They talked about how they missed Jordan Lewis, who played the nickel position.
02:10They went out and signed a safety, spent a lot of money on a safety.
02:14So, I mean, they are at least showing you that they have interest in that position.
02:18And Ted Wynn wrote about this.
02:19He said, in the era of two deep defenses, influenced by Vic Fangio and Mike McDonald,
02:23I'm moving away from the terms post safeties and strong safeties and categorizing safeties
02:27as deep safeties, big nickels, and do-it-all safeties who can do both and more.
02:31And so, he says that deep safeties are safeties you trust to play deep.
02:34They're less viable than the rangy post safety such as Earl Thomas.
02:37But defensive coordinators need to have two who won't give up explosives.
02:41The big nickels are safeties who play in the slot but have a multitude of responsibilities.
02:45Playing deep, things unfold more slowly, and they have more time to react.
02:49But playing closer to the line of scrimmage, they have to react quicker,
02:51so the skills are much different.
02:52That's where a lot of people would feel like Caleb Downs is a nickel player,
02:56is because he can be safety in base defense, but then when you're in the nickel,
03:00line of scrimmage reaction, the processing, you want to see somebody who can...
03:03Choppy, if I told you that Downs was going to play more nickel than safety,
03:07would that alter your thinking about taking him?
03:11So, I'm giving you your corner.
03:14Oh, no, I mean, look, if Downs is available, like, that's...
03:18I'm still taking it, even though I understand that the need is more at maybe corner.
03:23But I'm telling you he's going to play more corner.
03:25Yeah, no, no, no, that's fine.
03:27It doesn't change anything for me.
03:28I'd still take him.
03:30Bobby, skill set-wise, like, he's a what at safety and would be a what at nickel out of ten.
03:36So, I think that he's a...
03:39Because it's hard to divorce the two in terms of how he'd play.
03:41I think that is his position.
03:42How much nickel did he play at Ohio State?
03:45A decent amount.
03:46They ran such a different defense, though.
03:50He would have some coverage stuff.
03:52He played a lot at the line of scrimmage.
03:53He did more coverage at Alabama.
03:54So, I would say that he's probably...
03:57So, why do we think we should just throw him in the nickel in the NFL?
04:01Because you see him do it.
04:03Like, you've seen him do it.
04:04He didn't have as many reps doing it, but you've seen him do it consistently.
04:07And given his mental processing and things like that, I think the projection is if he played safety full-time
04:12or he played nickel corner full-time, either one, he's a Pro Bowl player.
04:16I think that's how a lot of people view him, is that he has that capability.
04:20So, Ted went over at The Athletic, has these sort of topics, and has broken it down because everybody knows
04:25about Caleb Downs.
04:26But he decided to take a look at some of the others who may be influenced by it.
04:29So, the first one is the big nickel, the safeties who play in the slot, have a multitude of responsibilities,
04:34different things they can do.
04:35These are some of the other names he likes there.
04:37A.J. Halsey.
04:38This is one that Brian really likes, you know, Zach really likes.
04:42A lot of people are big fans of A.J. Halsey.
04:43He's one of the probably top five safeties out there, LSU.
04:46He says that Halsey has one of the most fun tapes to watch because he's trying to destroy guys on
04:51every play.
04:51He's extremely active, but to his own detriment at times.
04:54He tries to pounce on every play, though he mostly played deep at LSU in 2025.
04:58He should play in the box early on as he learns the system in the NFL.
05:03And I think right now a lot of people would look at A.J. Halsey and say probably third-round
05:08type,
05:08depending on how some people view him and how they attack picking players like that early in the draft.
05:15If Thineman goes, Downs goes, then Halsey could be a guy that goes in more like the second round.
05:21Keontae Scott from Miami.
05:23If you watched Miami play, which we all did during the playoff, you saw him.
05:28People may not, like, have it flashing in their mind like they did with Bain and others,
05:32but he's somebody who always made plays.
05:34So he writes that Scott isn't a big nickel in size, but he plays much bigger than that.
05:38He weighed in at only 193 pounds, but he has heavy hands and attacks blockers like he's trying to take
05:43their lunch money.
05:44He was used as a blitzer a lot.
05:46He times up the blitz well and has edge-like bend around the corner.
05:49His ability to rush the passer will be a legitimate tool.
05:51What makes him unique is he has the man skills to match up with slot receivers
05:55and strong click-and-close ability playing underneath the zones.
05:58He is an older prospect, like all those Miami players seem to be.
06:01He is 25 years old, but his unique set of skills could be impactful in the right system.
06:05That's the thing.
06:05Scott is a guy who, older, undersized in a lot of ways for the position, probably not top-end speed.
06:13Like, you look at these sort of things and you go, like, it doesn't check a lot of boxes,
06:16but then when you watch him play, it's like, that looks like the player you want.
06:19And when he went up against big competition consistently, he had success doing that.
06:24And right now, I think that my guess would be that I thought Scott would be more of like a
06:30third-rounder.
06:31I think there's some others who believe he's good enough to potentially go in the second.
06:36And, like, I think Wolchuk has him in the second round.
06:38But that's somebody who...
06:39While sneezing?
06:40Yeah, while sneezing.
06:41Did you like that video of him sneezing?
06:43You know, I didn't even listen to the audio.
06:45I just watched him sneeze.
06:47What happened?
06:47Did the snot ricochet back in his face?
06:50Blew out of his nose and onto his, like, face.
06:53Oh, man, I'll tell you.
06:54You missed him.
06:54On a live stream.
06:56He said it's the pollen.
06:57It's the pollen, right.
06:59If I blow my nose, if I'm sick and I blow my nose sometimes, it'll go up into my eyes,
07:02and then my eyes are cooked for, like, three days.
07:04That's disgusting.
07:05That's, like, pink eye?
07:06Yeah, it's the non-poop pink eye.
07:12There's a viral and a bacterial, and I don't know which one's which,
07:16but it's the one that is the non-poop one.
07:19Ted went over to The Athletic, continues to write about the different safeties
07:21that would be available and how they would be applied.
07:24Jalen Kilgore is the next one.
07:26He was the replacement for Nicky Manwar.
07:28So when we saw Nicky Manwar and everything that he was able to do,
07:31South Carolina last year said,
07:33who can we get to best replicate what he did for us?
07:35And they had Jalen Kilgore do that.
07:37And he is, as Ted writes, E-Manwari light from a traits perspective.
07:41Not as big and fast as E-Manwari, but is still a freak in his own right.
07:45He's not nearly as natural in man coverage as E-Manwari was.
07:48He's too impatient and often bites on the first move.
07:50But the traits are there.
07:51People think really highly of him.
07:53Again, second, third round probably is what you're looking at.
07:56And then this is interesting that he put this guy here.
08:00Wild card on this one.
08:01He says Kyle Lewis from Pitt.
08:03And I'm fascinated by this one because Kyle Lewis is a tweener.
08:09I would have guessed his last name is spelled like that.
08:11L-O-U-I-S.
08:13I would have guessed Lewis, the last name, would have a W.
08:15Yeah, you would normally think so.
08:16But there's some Kyle Lewis's out there like that.
08:19Kyle Lewis is a guy who a lot of NFL teams project him as a smaller linebacker
08:23and that they would anticipate that he would actually just be kind of a
08:27more modern chase guys around the field, like, you know,
08:30be able to have some coverage ability.
08:32But a lighter linebacker, essentially.
08:34He said Lewis played a hybrid role at Pitt.
08:36He played the star linebacker.
08:37He's 220 pounds.
08:38So he is a big nickel or he's a small linebacker, either way that you look at it.
08:43But a couple other ones really quickly that Ted covers here.
08:46Deep safety.
08:47He says Bud Clark at TCU.
08:48Again, Clark is another one who he's drawn some comparisons before to Kirby Joseph,
08:53who's the all pro Lions safety, who has shown a lot of really good ball hawking skills.
08:58Again, older prospect, 23 years old already, but he had made a lot of plays at TCU.
09:04Another one here, Jacoby Thomas from Miami.
09:06Miami, again, had just a ridiculous defense and what they were able to do deep.
09:10Kamari Ramsey from USC is another.
09:13I think the one more important to watch for Dallas when it comes to the USC safeties
09:17is Bishop Fitzgerald.
09:19That's one that I think they look at and they go, he can tackle, he can cover a little bit,
09:23he can do some various things.
09:24But you are seeing this transition in college football and into the NFL right now
09:28of guys who typically would have been small linebackers or would have been bigger corners
09:35that you wonder if they have all the ability to do all the different things that you need to do.
09:38And they found this hybrid role like Christian Parker talked about with us at Combine
09:41where he said that has become sort of like a 12th starter for NFL teams now.
09:45And that's such a valuable position.
09:47And I think that's why Dallas will get out of this draft at some point.
09:50If it's not downs, maybe they pick Stiles at 12.
09:52If Thienemann's around at 20, they might pick Thienemann there.
09:56Maybe they do trade back a little.
09:57Maybe they then look at Emmanuel McNeil-Warren from Toledo.
09:59I think they absolutely do want to address this position,
10:02whether it be with those first round picks or maybe something in the third round.
10:06Man, I've really kind of been turned off by the possibilities at 20.
10:12And last night I started trying to conjure up a miracle dream scenario
10:19where downs falls to me at 12.
10:23And then I make my move up from 20 to maybe get someone else that has fallen.
10:29And I was like, are you going to finish my sentence?
10:32It's so funny you say this because I just heard Vaught on the draft show say this yesterday
10:36where he goes, man, if you can get Stiles and downs to fall to 12.
10:40There it is.
10:40He's like, I'm picking downs at 12.
10:42And then I'm immediately calling 13 and saying, let me come up.
10:44There it is.
10:44Let me get up there.
10:45That's exactly what I was trying to dream up a scenario for yesterday.
10:50I don't think that's impossible.
10:51I don't think it's likely.
10:53I don't think it's impossible.
10:54I mean, the trading up to get 13 and 12, that might be.
10:57But I don't think it's impossible to look at how this draft could break out
11:02and to say that at 12 they could be looking at Stiles and downs.
11:05I don't know that it's likely.
11:07It's possible.
11:08I mean, there is a reasonable end to that point.
11:10And I think there are some teams.
11:12I think Minnesota.
11:13I mean, the Jets are always looking for picks.
11:16Detroit only has, like, one other pick in the top 100.
11:20I think if you wanted to move up from 20 to the middle of the round,
11:23let's not say 13, but you wanted to move up to 15, 16, 17,
11:27I think one of those three teams would move back.
11:29So give me the cost for moving up.
11:32I'll give you two different scenarios.
11:34I jumped to 11 with Miami.
11:37All right?
11:38Mm-hmm.
11:39So you're 12 to 11.
11:39I'm staying at 12.
11:40You're staying at 12.
11:41No, I'm going 20 to 11.
11:43And I'm going 20 to 13.
11:45Now let's also take into account the teams here for realistic.
11:50Miami at 11 and at 13 is the Rams.
11:55So I'm going.
11:58The Rams have two firsts this year, right?
12:00The Rams are one of the teams with two firsts.
12:03Did they give one up for Kansas City?
12:06No, they don't.
12:06Kansas City's got that pick.
12:07Oh, Kansas City took it.
12:08Kansas City has it.
12:09That was the Trent McDuffie deal.
12:11So the Rams have the Falcons, I think.
12:13So I'm moving up either to 11 or 13 from 20 to get downs and styles back to back.
12:20400-point difference going to 11 from your 20 pick.
12:25And the 400, just for reference, the pick that's valued at 400 in the NFL draft is pick 50.
12:31And so you don't really have anything like you would probably.
12:34Next year's second.
12:36But I think that you might have to do next year's second and 92.
12:39Because next year's second is the third.
12:41That's exactly what it is.
12:42See, you know, you're learning.
12:43Then you've got going up to 13.
12:45I'm learning.
12:46I'm not understanding.
12:4713 would be a little.
12:48Now, 13, the Rams want a receiver is the thought.
12:52So you might be able to still be like, all right, fine.
12:55We're at 12.
12:56We've got these two available to us.
12:57The Rams go ahead and take a receiver.
12:58All right, let's call Baltimore.
12:59By the way, is that receiver a Puka replacement or a Devontae?
13:02I mean, they were investigating that sort of thing before the Puka stuff came out.
13:07Yeah.
13:07So, I mean, they definitely were exploring that.
13:09I think that then you're just trying to make calculated odds running through the scenario of where.
13:13Can you imagine if I came away with these two?
13:16I mean, yeah.
13:17Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
13:19And it wouldn't take a crazy amount.
13:21It would take a crazy amount to go up.
13:22Who would go more nuts?
13:23You?
13:24Or if, for some reason, Stiles was able to be picked at 15, Brian Broadus going, told y'all.
13:29Told y'all he was the 15th best player.
13:31Well, Broadus has him at 16.
13:33So, Broadus would think they've reached.
13:34That's true.
13:35Yeah.
13:35But he'd be thrilled if they traded up to five to get him.
13:37So, credit to Vauch.
13:39I didn't know he said it first.
13:40But I was just thinking of that last night.
13:42I'm like, what if they both fall?
13:44I don't love 20 possibilities.
13:46And I move up.
13:47Forget if I'm moving up from 12.
13:48I move up from 20.
13:49You could definitely, I think, move up from 20 and get to 16, I don't know about Tampa,
13:56but 16, 17, 18, Indy, Detroit, Minnesota.
13:58Jets are talking.
13:59If you wanted to take.
14:00There's chatter.
14:00Jets might go up.
14:01I don't want to take a hood.
14:02I want Downs and Stiles.
14:04Well, I'm saying, let's assume one of them is gone by then.
14:07So, what is it going to come?
14:08If you came away with Downs and Stiles, I would be disappointed that we didn't get a corner.
14:12Downs is a corner.
14:13Downs would play corner next year.
14:14Downs is playing nickel.
14:16I don't know.
14:17What do you mean?
14:17You don't know what?
14:18I'm telling you, that's what he'd play.
14:20He would play corner.
14:21And then in base, he would play safety.
14:24All right.
14:25I mean, we're just moving guys around.
14:26Well, you know what?
14:27How about this?
14:27We'll just drive to running back and move into linebacker.
14:29We'll just do that.
14:30We'll just do that.
14:31Isn't that exactly what they did with Micah?
14:34Isn't that exactly what they did with Micah?
14:35They took him from position.
14:36They had him play something he'd never done.
14:37Okay, so just take the unicorn of the sport and just use it.
14:40Commercial break.
14:41Caleb Downs is one of the unicorns.
14:42Commercial break.
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