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Transcript

00:00:02Music

00:00:39Iosef, two years old, was also a victim of the massacre that took place this evening in Erba, between Como and Lecco.

00:00:44With Iosef, his mother, Raffaella Castagna, 30 years old, his grandmother, Paola Galli, and a neighbor, Valeria Chiarubini, 50

00:00:50years.

00:00:51The neighbor's husband, Mario Frigerio, 60, is in serious condition and hospitalized.

00:00:56Music

00:00:57I arrived in Erba shortly after the alarm went off, at first it was thought to be a fire with people involved in the fire.

00:01:08inside the house, but because of the fire.

00:01:11Afterwards, the extent of what was happening was understood.

00:01:16No, who could have imagined such a thing.

00:01:21Music

00:01:27The discovery by the firefighters, the four bodies with their throats cut and a seriously injured man, all hit in the throat by

00:01:33stabbed in the house, then set on fire.

00:01:36Convinced that Olindo and Rosa are guilty?

00:01:39100%

00:01:39Beyond a reasonable doubt, as they say?

00:01:42Even more.

00:01:43I believe this is the most sensational miscarriage of justice in the history of the Republic, while it had been defined as the most serious episode

00:01:51criminal in the history of the Republic.

00:01:53We believe that there have been two innocent people in prison for 16 years and if only all the elements had been entered

00:02:00in the trial, this innocence would have been established from the beginning.

00:02:08Music

00:02:09Proponents of innocence and guilt against each other, as if not a day had passed since that 8th January 2007,

00:02:16when Italy learned that in Erba, in the province of Como, the murderers of three women and a child of

00:02:22two-year-olds, killed two weeks before Christmas, had finally been brought to justice.

00:02:27Music

00:02:32Does this tell me anything?

00:02:36Madam, please Madam Alma

00:02:38Does that tell us anything?

00:02:39We are nothing

00:02:40You are not under investigation, you are nothing

00:02:43We are nothing

00:02:44Please

00:02:45Why is everyone talking about you?

00:02:49Music

00:02:50The authors of the massacre, the Court of Cassation has definitively established, are called Olindo Romano and Rosa Bazzi

00:02:57But everyone knows them by name, because they are the symbolic culprits of a massacre which, according to the sentences, was triggered

00:03:04in the breeding ground of condominium disputes

00:03:07This is the house of the alleged murderer, up there is the window of the apartment where four people were killed.

00:03:14massacred

00:03:14Can someone really turn into a monster just because of a neighbor's argument?

00:03:19We have two guilty people who confess what they did, indeed they claim responsibility for the massacre.

00:03:28Rosa will say we cleaned up, they have the motive to do it, the motive is hatred

00:03:35They have an alibi that doesn't hold up and above all they have an eyewitness

00:04:05Seen from afar, this is a solid, granite-like process.

00:04:08And as you get closer you can see what we have defined as cracks in the pillars of this

00:04:17condemnation

00:04:18The procedural truth is very, very, very lacking compared to what happened that evening

00:04:25In the middle of the two fronts, respecting what should be the quality of every magistrate

00:04:29that is, independence of judgment, there is a prosecutor of the Court of Appeal of Milan

00:04:34who asked, even before their lawyers, for the life sentence for Olindo and Rosa to be revised

00:04:40I am convinced, and I wrote it with full awareness of the extraordinary nature of the means of appeal

00:04:50I wrote that, in my opinion, the evidence that led to the conviction

00:04:56especially in light of the technical and scientific developments that have taken place in the last 15 years

00:05:03they cannot sustain this sentence

00:05:08If you go back to the perimeter that was established by the trials and the months of investigations and the confessions

00:05:19In my opinion, there is no way out of that perimeter

00:05:22I am neither guilty nor innocent.

00:05:27in the sense that those who believe in guilt and innocence are generally those who have not studied the documents

00:05:32who think from the gut

00:05:36aware of what I was doing

00:05:39I wrote the review request

00:05:45For this reason, with theses based on official documents never examined in depth

00:05:50and the support of a maximum expertise

00:05:52curated by fifteen experts and university professors

00:05:55now under consideration by the Court of Appeal of Brescia

00:05:58The story of the Erba massacre has gone beyond the circle of crime and crime enthusiasts

00:06:03to return to being of great relevance

00:06:29the history of the Court of Appeal

00:06:53The name of the Italian people, the Court of Assisi of Como

00:06:57declares Romano Lindo and Bazzi Rosa

00:07:00Angela guilty of the crimes then written

00:07:02he condemns them both, each one

00:07:05for the continuing crime of which

00:07:07KPA, B, C, F and G

00:07:10to life imprisonment with daytime solitary confinement

00:07:12for the duration of 2 years

00:07:14and for the continued crime of which

00:07:16the KPD and E

00:07:17to life imprisonment with 1 year of solitary confinement

00:07:22indicates the date for filing the reasons for the sentence on 24 February 2009

00:07:27the hearing is adjourned

00:07:45Returning 15 years later in front of the Como courthouse

00:07:48where the trial for the Erba massacre was held

00:07:50it definitely has a certain effect

00:07:52the Court of Assisi hall was here on the ground floor

00:07:55beyond that glass door

00:07:56the correspondents, the journalists who followed the trial

00:07:58they were staying in that hotel right next to the courthouse

00:08:01our working day

00:08:03it was marked by the arrival of dozens and dozens of people

00:08:06who lined up here in front

00:08:07to attend the hearing

00:08:09for there

00:08:17for which

00:08:18you're a bum!

00:08:22stupid!

00:08:24bum?

00:08:27isn't it?

00:08:27no no no

00:08:28but yes yes it's that one there

00:08:30that one there

00:08:31that's there

00:08:32it's there

00:08:33it's there

00:08:48The curiosity to see the two defendants in the cage up close was very strong, the atmosphere was certainly not serene and

00:08:55in fact the life sentence was pronounced right here in this court without any discussion.

00:09:08For me it's not a curiosity, I came to see the face of that gentleman who killed the child.

00:09:14I expect justice to be done and those who made mistakes should pay.

00:09:19Why is there a child involved?

00:09:22It's strange when I make them calm, clean, as if they hadn't done anything and that's what makes them angry anyway.

00:09:28the people.

00:09:32What you are about to see are new elements, never emerged until now.

00:09:36Before starting to work as a journalist, Antonino Monteleone worked in law and for a short period he

00:09:41also trained as a lawyer.

00:09:43Perhaps this is why he took the story of Lindo and Rosa to heart, about which he wrote the book

00:09:48Erba just released, making 40 television reconstructions for the program Le Iene.

00:09:54Let's remember the context at the time. In 2006, the induction was approved.

00:10:01It is true that the decree is approved to empty the prisons which are overflowing, but on the other hand it is placed

00:10:07a security issue.

00:10:09I think it's shocking, especially since he's still around. That's the fact. There's a person

00:10:14who kills like this and is out there. We're a little scared.

00:10:18Knowing that someone did this in the wild is terrible.

00:10:23The serenity of one of the most productive regions in Europe, Abrianza, is shaken.

00:10:29And this panic demanded answers, quick answers. Sometimes it's easy to take shortcuts.

00:10:41The first shortcut was taken by the Carabinieri on the very night of the massacre.

00:10:45For over 12 hours, the killer has a name. His name is Azouz Marzouk. He is the father of little Youssef and

00:10:52Raffaella Castagna's husband.

00:10:53He's a drug dealer. He's just been released from prison. And the next day the massacre becomes the story of all the newspapers.

00:10:59'material author.

00:11:03The search is underway for the man of Tunisian origin who died last night in Erba, in the province of Como,

00:11:10killed his wife, son, mother-in-law and a neighbor.

00:11:16He was saved from arrest only because he had been in Tunisia for days.

00:11:20But he is not spared from the suspicions, which do not follow for years, of being in some way not only a collateral victim

00:11:25of the massacre, but to know at least part of its causes.

00:11:29I have the impression that they paid for something bigger that he probably had pending.

00:11:38I'm not given to know that he wasn't a saint, but something wasn't working,

00:11:46we probably all understood it a little.

00:11:50And my daughter certainly mediated a lot and tried to do above all the Red Cross as a Samaritan in the

00:12:01towards this person.

00:12:02She absolutely wanted to help him.

00:12:07Investigations into a massacre motivated by drug-related incidents and clashes between gangs

00:12:14of drug dealers, immediately appear long and complex, even though the prosecutor's office had been investigating Zuzmarzuc for some time.

00:12:23I lost everything, absolutely everything.

00:12:26Anger, hatred, fury inside, fire inside, I feel a fire inside.

00:12:31The trail is discarded in favor of the one about the neighbors, who two days after the massacre were supposed to be

00:12:38appear in court for the arguments with Raffaella Castagna.

00:12:41They are strange people.

00:12:43I don't know, maybe even if you're in bed sleeping, they think you're making noises, you're sleeping, they come, they

00:12:51scitofano, stop making a mess.

00:12:55For their accusers, Olinda and Rosa are the prototype of the intolerant neighbor.

00:13:00They are symbiotic, closed in their own world.

00:13:02Their alleged silence regarding the massacre, denied by some wiretaps at home, also led them to be accused.

00:13:10them, discovered by the journalist Montolli.

00:13:12Wiretaps are being subjected to.

00:13:15And what do you listen to?

00:13:16Silence.

00:13:18Absolute silence.

00:13:19All over Italy that day people were talking about the massacre, the Erba massacre.

00:13:25There is one exception.

00:13:27No discussion there, a few meters from the crime scene.

00:13:30Not a word.

00:13:32If the seriously injured one doesn't wake up outside,

00:13:36if he saw something, if he was there,

00:13:39here, we have to wait for the united one to recover.

00:13:42Then maybe they can figure something out.

00:13:48Between real news and fake news, the investigators' suspicions are leaked to journalists

00:13:53and the avalanche, day after day, becomes an avalanche.

00:13:57Until January 8, 2007, when Linda and Rosa ended up in prison without ever being able to get out.

00:14:04You heard them, you listened to them.

00:14:06The pain, the crying, the emotional storm, only and exclusively when faced with the prospect of separation.

00:14:18Theirs is a real emotional illiteracy.

00:14:23The sick context was the investigative context in general,

00:14:26that is, the very strong media pressure.

00:14:29In any case, it was necessary to arrive at a result as quickly as possible.

00:14:33and in this context obviously things are not always done in a way that is not sufficiently thought out, so to speak.

00:14:42Pino Corrias, journalist and writer, ten months after the massacre published Vicini da morire,

00:14:48transcribing Olindo and Rosa's conversations with their psychiatrist.

00:14:52From a totally opposite point of view,

00:14:54the real media trial began after the first instance verdict.

00:14:58What seems convincing, right and legitimate to me

00:15:02is that the defense and the convicted do everything to prove their innocence.

00:15:12After that, in my opinion, a media mechanism was also triggered

00:15:17which fueled doubts,

00:15:22that is, every glimmer of hope has been raised, widened, enriched,

00:15:28so this thing grows by dint of talking about it.

00:15:37During a crime story we always hear people say

00:15:41eh, don't worry about it because trials are held in court.

00:15:46We dealt with it in 2018, so many years have passed since the events

00:15:50and we were told, oh well, but the court has already ruled

00:15:54Now that you're here, what are you doing?

00:15:56Are you dealing with something that has already been resolved by justice?

00:16:01But when do journalists deal with these stories?

00:16:05It will be remembered that the first instance trial was a trial,

00:16:10let's say a mock trial.

00:16:12When you convince yourself in front of millions of Italians

00:16:15that it is taken for granted that Olinda and Rosa immediately

00:16:20they are guilty

00:16:22It's hard to go back.

00:16:29The historic lawyers of Olinda and Rosa

00:16:31They are Fabio Schembri and Luisa Bordeaux.

00:16:33The legal battle, completely free of charge,

00:16:37started in June 2007,

00:16:39it never stopped,

00:16:40not even after the final sentence.

00:16:42I also experienced it humanly

00:16:45just like many lawyers do

00:16:47because then it is difficult to go down the two positions

00:16:49because there is always the technical defense

00:16:53and a profile of humanity

00:16:55that I think the lawyer should dispense

00:16:59for his client.

00:17:03The road of Olinda and Rosa's lawyers,

00:17:05viewed with suspicion by much of the press,

00:17:08he encountered many obstacles.

00:17:10One for all,

00:17:11the destruction of some of the finds

00:17:13decided by the Court of Como.

00:17:16We found absolutely hostile terrain.

00:17:23The lawyer is usually alone.

00:17:26The lawyer defends certain people

00:17:28and the lawyer is attacked by public opinion

00:17:32because he is very often identified with the culprit.

00:17:35But the lawyer has to stay there.

00:17:38We are convinced that we are on the right side of the barricade.

00:17:46Let's rewind the tape

00:17:47and we go back to that evening of December 11, 2006

00:17:50where little Youssef,

00:17:52Raffaella Castagna,

00:17:54Paola Galli and Valeria Cherubini

00:17:55their throats were slit

00:17:57while Mario Friggerio miraculously survived.

00:18:06I went out to shake the tablecloth

00:18:09and I noticed smoke coming out at the bottom

00:18:12where the Castagna family lives.

00:18:16Mr. Ballabio was at the intercom

00:18:17who told me that smoke was coming out

00:18:20from the house called Ice House

00:18:25which is there in the courtyard.

00:18:30There was the closed bridge,

00:18:31we opened it

00:18:32and a puff of smoke hit us.

00:18:35We went up the small flight of stairs

00:18:38and the body could be seen,

00:18:44a body just adjacent

00:18:46at the entrance door.

00:18:52Leaning against the stairwell

00:18:54that was about to rise

00:18:55there was the body of Mr. Mario Friggerio

00:18:58facing the stairs with his stomach facing the stairs.

00:19:01The story begins at lunchtime

00:19:04when Raffaella goes to work

00:19:05and grandmother Paola brings her grandson home.

00:19:09When the two women and the child

00:19:11they will make a homecoming

00:19:12the apartment is dark.

00:19:15It's around 8pm,

00:19:16they open the door,

00:19:17they enter the house

00:19:18and the slaughter begins.

00:19:22I took one or two steps at most

00:19:24in the apartment

00:19:25because I found Raffaella.

00:19:27She had the clothes

00:19:29who were affected by the fire

00:19:31to which with his own clothes

00:19:33because I was bare-handed

00:19:35I turned off his clothes.

00:19:38When I entered

00:19:39I only had time

00:19:40to enlighten the grandmother.

00:19:42I heard a fireman

00:19:43what he told me

00:19:43come there's a child.

00:19:45I went and lit it up

00:19:46after which the carabinieri

00:19:47who arrived at that moment

00:19:48they let us out.

00:19:49We moved on

00:19:50to open the window

00:19:51by Mrs. Cherubini

00:19:52to let the smoke out

00:19:54and we found it

00:19:55kneeling

00:19:56in a pool of blood

00:19:58right there like this.

00:20:01On the reconstruction of the massacre

00:20:03the prosecution's versions

00:20:04and defense

00:20:05they diverge at several points.

00:20:07Let's look at them one by one.

00:20:09First of all

00:20:10the investigators

00:20:10they don't give too much weight

00:20:11to the noises heard

00:20:12from a Syrian neighbor

00:20:14before Raffaella,

00:20:15the mother and the grandson

00:20:16they came back home.

00:20:17That evening

00:20:19she

00:20:20he began to feel

00:20:22some noises

00:20:23at a certain time

00:20:24that is, at 6.30pm?

00:20:25About yes.

00:20:28And these noises

00:20:29from which apartment

00:20:30did they come from?

00:20:32The noises came from

00:20:33from Raffaella's apartment.

00:20:35No.

00:20:38The deposition

00:20:39of the Syrian lady

00:20:40it seems confirmed

00:20:41from electricity consumption

00:20:42in the house of the massacre

00:20:43analyzed thoroughly

00:20:44from the defense

00:20:45and never entered

00:20:46in the investigations.

00:20:47Before 5.40pm

00:20:49when for the manager

00:20:50of the electrical service

00:20:51it was detached

00:20:52the current

00:20:53there have been

00:20:54several peaks

00:20:55of energy consumption

00:20:56which would make one think

00:20:57to someone

00:20:58that was in the house

00:20:59well before returning

00:21:00of the victims.

00:21:03Objectively

00:21:04that's a scene

00:21:04of the crime

00:21:05which describes

00:21:06an event

00:21:09very complex

00:21:10even well-designed

00:21:13precisely.

00:21:13Yes, yes, absolutely.

00:21:17Paolo Moretti

00:21:18works on the newspaper

00:21:19to the province of Como

00:21:20he's a reporter

00:21:21of black and judicial

00:21:22and of the palace

00:21:23of justice

00:21:23of his city

00:21:24he knows everything

00:21:25and everyone.

00:21:26To force

00:21:28Raffaella

00:21:28to reopen

00:21:29the front door

00:21:30they had taken away

00:21:31detached

00:21:32the light

00:21:32of Raffaella's house.

00:21:34So the scene

00:21:35was it in the dark?

00:21:35The scene

00:21:36it was in the dark

00:21:36Raffaella

00:21:37enter the house

00:21:38it doesn't turn on

00:21:39the light

00:21:40so it must

00:21:41to be able to

00:21:42to go

00:21:42to turn on

00:21:43the teapot

00:21:44on the switch

00:21:45when it comes out

00:21:46she is attacked

00:21:46from Olindo

00:21:48which is the first

00:21:48to enter.

00:21:55The question

00:21:56of the electric current

00:21:57certainly

00:21:58detached

00:21:58at 5.40pm

00:21:59it's one of those

00:22:00subjects

00:22:00which will continue

00:22:01to stir up discussion

00:22:02both for the news

00:22:03contained

00:22:04in the aperitif

00:22:04of the defense

00:22:05that report

00:22:06abnormal consumption

00:22:07much earlier

00:22:07of the massacre

00:22:08that for information

00:22:10not true

00:22:10provided by Rosa

00:22:11during his confession

00:22:13She took it off

00:22:14the light?

00:22:14Are you her husband?

00:22:15Yes, I

00:22:16She took it off

00:22:17at what time?

00:22:18Before

00:22:18More or less when?

00:22:20They will have been

00:22:21half past seven

00:22:23But the reconstructions

00:22:24of the prosecution

00:22:25and defense

00:22:26they also diverge

00:22:27at a second point

00:22:28It was a mask

00:22:29of blood

00:22:29and in the meantime

00:22:32I heard

00:22:33twice

00:22:33the voice

00:22:34of up

00:22:35a voice

00:22:35from above

00:22:36that he said

00:22:37help

00:22:38I knowing

00:22:40who lives

00:22:40above

00:22:40the wife

00:22:43of Frigerio

00:22:46I understand

00:22:47that was her

00:22:47but

00:22:48I did

00:22:48to go up

00:22:49and the wall

00:22:50of smoke

00:22:50even denser

00:22:52that was rising

00:22:52towards the window

00:22:54open

00:22:54he really made me

00:22:55took my breath away

00:22:59The testimony

00:23:00of the neighbor

00:23:01at home

00:23:01introduce

00:23:02other questions

00:23:03if the wife

00:23:04by Frigerio

00:23:04she was hit

00:23:05to death

00:23:05after arrival

00:23:06of first responders

00:23:07because no one

00:23:08he saw

00:23:08the indo in pink

00:23:09where they escaped from

00:23:11the assassins

00:23:11for the prosecution

00:23:13the position

00:23:13of the corpse

00:23:14leaves no doubt

00:23:15Valeria

00:23:15Cherubim

00:23:16she was hit

00:23:16on the stairs

00:23:17to then go

00:23:18to die

00:23:18alone

00:23:19in his house

00:23:20although

00:23:21the consultant

00:23:21of the public prosecutor

00:23:22in the classroom

00:23:23he made this consideration

00:23:25I have never seen

00:23:26a victim

00:23:27killed

00:23:28in a way

00:23:28so bloody

00:23:31to put on

00:23:31voluntarily

00:23:32on your knees

00:23:37Instead

00:23:38on the basis

00:23:39of a new one

00:23:39aperitif

00:23:40of the defense

00:23:40the story

00:23:41made by Olindo

00:23:42and Rosa

00:23:42in confessions

00:23:43then retract

00:23:44it would be invented

00:23:45from scratch

00:23:46Valeria Cherubini

00:23:48once hit

00:23:49from a stab wound

00:23:49to the muscle

00:23:50who governs

00:23:50the left leg

00:23:51he would no longer have

00:23:52could walk

00:23:53consequentially

00:23:54the woman

00:23:55after being injured

00:23:56a first time

00:23:56on the stairs

00:23:57it can only be

00:23:58was shot to death

00:23:59within

00:24:00of his house

00:24:01if the lady

00:24:03she was hit

00:24:04above

00:24:05because he couldn't

00:24:05take the stairs

00:24:06the story

00:24:08cascading

00:24:08the story

00:24:10of the two

00:24:12it's leaky

00:24:13at a central point

00:24:14of the reconstruction

00:24:20to the questions

00:24:21on dynamics

00:24:22of the massacre

00:24:22lift up

00:24:23from the defenders

00:24:24and their consultants

00:24:25they are added

00:24:26the considerations

00:24:27conclusive

00:24:27of the RIS

00:24:28of Parma

00:24:28at the time

00:24:29the laboratory

00:24:30of the carabinieri

00:24:31he didn't find

00:24:31no trace

00:24:32that connected

00:24:33Olindo and Rosa

00:24:34to the massacre

00:24:35all investigations

00:24:36were delegated

00:24:37from the prosecutor's office

00:24:37at the station

00:24:38of the carabinieri

00:24:39of Grass

00:24:39while the commander

00:24:41of the RIS

00:24:41at the trial

00:24:42became

00:24:43defense witnesses

00:24:50he was called

00:24:51in the evening

00:24:51just happened

00:24:52from my commander

00:24:53and we went

00:24:54immediately on site

00:24:55because anyway

00:24:55from there it seemed

00:24:57a fire

00:24:57then it emerged

00:24:59which instead

00:25:00it had been a massacre

00:25:01a massacre

00:25:02classic state

00:25:03confusing

00:25:03of those who find

00:25:04an event

00:25:06of the genre

00:25:10in the granite wall

00:25:11in defense

00:25:12of the investigations

00:25:13for the massacre

00:25:13of Grass

00:25:14they begin in the years

00:25:15to open up

00:25:16some cracks

00:25:16one of these

00:25:17is represented

00:25:18from the marshal

00:25:19Gianni Tartaglia

00:25:20at the time

00:25:21of the massacre

00:25:22investigator

00:25:22top of the line

00:25:23of the department

00:25:24operating

00:25:24from Como

00:25:24since then

00:25:26had

00:25:26some trouble

00:25:27with justice

00:25:27which is ending

00:25:28to repair

00:25:29but it remains

00:25:30of that investigation

00:25:31a witness

00:25:32prominent

00:25:32you have to beat

00:25:33hot

00:25:34those slopes

00:25:34you can't

00:25:35Give Way

00:25:35a long time

00:25:36the investigations

00:25:37they are taken

00:25:38in chief

00:25:39from the station

00:25:40from the commander

00:25:41Gallorini

00:25:43Yes

00:25:43and it's normal

00:25:44this reversal

00:25:45there it is

00:25:46but it's normal

00:25:48Certain

00:25:49whether at the moment

00:25:51it could have been normal

00:25:52let's say it wasn't

00:25:53much shared

00:25:54but

00:25:55then it emerged

00:25:56at the trial

00:25:57eh but these are

00:25:59things

00:25:59of various kinds

00:26:00paper

00:26:02computer scientists

00:26:03recordings

00:26:04In short

00:26:04I am trying to say

00:26:04All

00:26:05a whole complex

00:26:06of things

00:26:06that didn't go

00:26:07in the right direction

00:26:08from the moment in which

00:26:09the station

00:26:10takes

00:26:11add information

00:26:12takes investigations

00:26:13then there is the operational core

00:26:14to make wiretaps

00:26:15the investment core

00:26:16to make a statement

00:26:16he understands that

00:26:18during this journey

00:26:20it's easy

00:26:20that they get lost

00:26:21some pieces

00:26:21Surely

00:26:22some things

00:26:24they were made

00:26:24not according to the rules of the art

00:26:26eh

00:26:27I think that

00:26:28when you're busy

00:26:30in an investigation

00:26:30Like this

00:26:30it can happen

00:26:32I am trying to say

00:26:32shouldn't

00:26:33but it can

00:26:33it can happen

00:26:34but it affects

00:26:35the one on the final result

00:26:36evidently not

00:26:38but in the relationship

00:26:40of the carabinieri

00:26:40of the RIS

00:26:41there are other things

00:26:42that don't come back

00:26:42not only at home

00:26:43of the Romans

00:26:44it was not found

00:26:44blood of the victims

00:26:45but in the building

00:26:47of the massacre

00:26:47were found

00:26:48footprints of people

00:26:49unidentified

00:26:51at the crime scene

00:26:52there is a footprint

00:26:53palmtop

00:26:54that does not belong

00:26:55in Rosolindo

00:26:55that does not belong

00:26:57to the victims

00:26:58that does not belong

00:26:58to the rescuers

00:26:59and that remained

00:27:00unanswered

00:27:07at the crime scene

00:27:08there are footprints

00:27:09of shoes

00:27:11that do not belong

00:27:12to the rescuers

00:27:13that do not belong

00:27:13in Rosolindo

00:27:14that do not belong

00:27:16to the victims

00:27:17and that remained

00:27:17unanswered

00:27:18this is a story

00:27:20which until today

00:27:21it was unknown

00:27:23and I think

00:27:24that whoever has

00:27:25a minimum

00:27:26of objectivity

00:27:28and at least

00:27:30ask yourself

00:27:31and evaluate

00:27:32these elements

00:27:39I give up everything

00:27:40but not to my wife

00:27:42I also said it

00:27:42in prison

00:27:43put us in a cell

00:27:44together

00:27:45and leave us there too

00:27:47all my life

00:27:47but together though

00:27:49why separate

00:27:51No

00:27:55they told us

00:27:58if I didn't say

00:28:01what I had to say

00:28:03which have been

00:28:05all written

00:28:06I couldn't see anymore

00:28:07the olindo

00:28:12that's all for me

00:28:14the olindo

00:28:17They

00:28:19they had said

00:28:21that they put

00:28:21on a van

00:28:22the olindo

00:28:23I didn't see him anymore

00:28:27I that moment

00:28:29I told her

00:28:34tell me what to say

00:28:38that I say it

00:28:40but don't take it away

00:28:42the olindo

00:28:45it wasn't us

00:28:51and then I

00:28:53decided for the minor

00:28:54of evils

00:28:55I decided

00:28:55what was I supposed to do?

00:28:57rather than

00:28:58not seeing my wife

00:28:59for life

00:29:00I would have preferred to be in jail

00:29:03and then I told him

00:29:04in Finocchiaro

00:29:05after several hours

00:29:07that came out of me

00:29:09it was coming out of my head

00:29:12it was coming out of me

00:29:13I told him

00:29:14in Finocchiaro

00:29:16look

00:29:17let's do something

00:29:18call the magistrate

00:29:21the PM

00:29:22I don't know

00:29:23the judge

00:29:24I don't know

00:29:25what it was

00:29:26that I confess

00:29:29I'm just asking

00:29:30not to take us away

00:29:32Of

00:29:33to move away

00:29:34a

00:29:35and the other

00:29:38Enough

00:29:43All right

00:29:44can be comfortable

00:29:44Thank you

00:29:48they are two people

00:29:49who pay

00:29:50the price

00:29:52of their love

00:29:52they are two people

00:29:53which are arranged

00:29:54to sacrifice oneself

00:29:56one for the other

00:29:57they are painted

00:29:58alternatively

00:29:59as

00:30:00diabolical

00:30:00vacant

00:30:01when it's convenient

00:30:03let's say

00:30:03to make wear

00:30:04their breads

00:30:05of these ruthless

00:30:06serial killer

00:30:06but they are also

00:30:07zelig

00:30:08in the measure

00:30:08in which

00:30:09naively

00:30:10they smile in the classroom

00:30:11they speak

00:30:11and they are happy

00:30:13to be together

00:30:14because that's what they want

00:30:15it's a moment

00:30:15in which

00:30:16they meet again

00:30:19they are two people

00:30:20extremely fragile

00:30:22And

00:30:24they had

00:30:24a blind trust

00:30:25in the forces

00:30:26of the order

00:30:27and in the investigators

00:30:28the day

00:30:29before being arrested

00:30:31January 7th

00:30:32Rosa was on the phone

00:30:34with a friend

00:30:34Mrs. Nanda

00:30:36and Mrs. Nanda

00:30:37he advised her

00:30:38to get a lawyer

00:30:39and Rosa tells her

00:30:40but it will be the carabinieri

00:30:41to have to tell me

00:30:42if I have to get a lawyer

00:30:46ready?

00:30:47Hi Nanda

00:30:48I'm Rosy

00:30:49Hi Rosy

00:30:50come on how are you Rosy?

00:30:52eh nothing

00:30:53here we are

00:30:53all full

00:31:03no but we

00:31:04we didn't do it

00:31:05nothing bad

00:31:06no but I know Rosy

00:31:08but there isn't even one

00:31:09the doubt

00:31:09on this very point

00:31:10it's not raining

00:31:11In my opinion

00:31:12you agree

00:31:12start thinking

00:31:13to nominate

00:31:14a serious lawyer

00:31:15eh Nanda

00:31:17eh Rosy

00:31:18You are right

00:31:19but then

00:31:19not to go forward

00:31:20Like this

00:31:21but we don't have

00:31:22nothing to fear

00:31:23we don't have

00:31:24nothing to fear

00:31:25I understand

00:31:26they want to take pictures

00:31:28what do I do to her

00:31:29they don't want

00:31:29that they throw us

00:31:30in the newspaper

00:31:30that they throw us

00:31:31and we don't care

00:31:32me exactly

00:31:33I don't have any at all

00:31:33desire to take

00:31:34Meaning what

00:31:35we don't have

00:31:36the possibility

00:31:37and that is

00:31:37Nanda

00:31:38they are people

00:31:39of a naivety

00:31:40total

00:31:42that really

00:31:43because

00:31:43of these naiveties

00:31:44they found each other

00:31:45in a situation

00:31:45of the genre

00:31:46for them

00:31:47at that moment

00:31:48it's not that important

00:31:49to be accused

00:31:50of a fact

00:31:51that they have not committed

00:31:52How much

00:31:52the necessity

00:31:53to be together

00:31:54because unfortunately

00:31:54they are two people

00:31:55who live

00:31:55this relationship

00:31:57sentimental

00:31:58of full symbiosis

00:32:03Happy Manti

00:32:04and Edoardo Montolli

00:32:05they were

00:32:06the first journalists

00:32:07to question oneself

00:32:07on the retraction

00:32:08by Olindo and Rosa

00:32:09at nine months

00:32:10from their confessions

00:32:11together they wrote

00:32:13The great delusion

00:32:14a book that through

00:32:15a careful rereading

00:32:16of the investigation documents

00:32:17he discovered

00:32:18different circumstances

00:32:19controversial

00:32:20even today

00:32:21all updates

00:32:22they publish them

00:32:22on the site

00:32:23frontadelblog.com

00:32:26things happen

00:32:28then if you

00:32:28the exams

00:32:29some details

00:32:30surprising

00:32:31you find them

00:32:31under any circumstances

00:32:32in any murder

00:32:33in any scene

00:32:34of the crime

00:32:35there the thing

00:32:36is that they

00:32:37they confess

00:32:38to have gone up

00:32:39of having done

00:32:39the stairs

00:32:40to have opened

00:32:40the door

00:32:41of having killed

00:32:42with the knife

00:32:42and with the crowbar

00:32:45three women

00:32:46and a child

00:32:48Olindo and Rosa

00:32:49they don't know

00:32:49absolutely nothing

00:32:50they don't know

00:32:51that the massacre

00:32:51it was done

00:32:51in the dark

00:32:52they will insist

00:32:53that the light

00:32:53it was on

00:32:54they don't know

00:32:55how he was hit

00:32:56Frigerio

00:32:57they don't know

00:32:57how many hits did he receive

00:32:58Valeria Cherubini

00:32:59Frigerio's wife

00:33:01and they do a lot

00:33:02of errors

00:33:03those of Rosa

00:33:03they were not

00:33:04neither

00:33:05countable

00:33:06those of Olindo

00:33:07there is an error

00:33:08every 30 seconds

00:33:09practically

00:33:09everything

00:33:10described

00:33:11the only right things

00:33:11what does he say?

00:33:12they are those

00:33:12where they threw

00:33:13the clothes

00:33:13because he did

00:33:14the street cleaner

00:33:15and so he knew

00:33:16the places

00:33:16where he could

00:33:17to have thrown them away

00:33:23let's really care about ourselves

00:33:23in that room

00:33:25January 10, 2007

00:33:27what is it

00:33:28what didn't go?

00:33:30what didn't go

00:33:31in that room

00:33:32it is definitely

00:33:33an attitude

00:33:35how to say

00:33:35of thesis

00:33:38already pre-established

00:33:38by

00:33:39of the investigators

00:33:40they already have

00:33:41how to say

00:33:42somehow

00:33:43judged

00:33:44and condemned

00:33:44these people

00:33:45for which

00:33:46Olindo and Rosa

00:33:47they only have to

00:33:47confess

00:33:48one of the topics

00:33:51that the professor

00:33:52Case

00:33:53associated

00:33:53of the university

00:33:54at the Umsa

00:33:55deals with

00:33:55in his lessons

00:33:56I am really

00:33:57the interrogations

00:33:58the goal

00:33:59that's it

00:33:59to teach

00:34:00to psychologists

00:34:00forensi

00:34:01and future investigators

00:34:02the modalities

00:34:03more correct

00:34:04and respectful

00:34:04of the law

00:34:05to question

00:34:06the suspects

00:34:07the only one

00:34:08bibio

00:34:09that they have

00:34:09that's it

00:34:10or they don't confess

00:34:12and they take

00:34:13a life sentence

00:34:14or they confess

00:34:15and they have

00:34:16a big discount

00:34:17of punishment

00:34:17the same

00:34:17Lindo says

00:34:18in conclusion

00:34:18better 5 years

00:34:20here with Rosa

00:34:21that life imprisonment

00:34:22alone

00:34:23they don't have

00:34:23a thought

00:34:25divergent

00:34:25compared to that

00:34:26which has been proposed

00:34:27the only thought

00:34:28And

00:34:28how can I

00:34:29don't separate me

00:34:31from my wife

00:34:31they don't have

00:34:32other

00:34:32to think about

00:34:39four audiences

00:34:40ministries

00:34:41that question

00:34:42a

00:34:43semi-literate

00:34:44and one

00:34:46person

00:34:47that in the morning

00:34:47he gets up at 5

00:34:48to bring

00:34:49take out the rubbish

00:34:50the imbalance

00:34:52it's obvious

00:34:52to find oneself in front of

00:34:53four

00:34:54more

00:34:55the police

00:34:57judicial

00:34:58Meaning what

00:34:58more

00:34:59generally

00:35:00a defender

00:35:02ex officio

00:35:03which essentially

00:35:06remains

00:35:07silent

00:35:07where I

00:35:08every now and again

00:35:09I was saying

00:35:09but why not

00:35:10he intervened

00:35:12I have to say

00:35:13That

00:35:14it makes you think

00:35:16Here you are

00:35:18these promises

00:35:19how would you define them?

00:35:20the promise

00:35:21to go to prison

00:35:22absolutely

00:35:22ethically

00:35:23incorrect

00:35:23you can't

00:35:24promise

00:35:25to

00:35:26Nobody

00:35:27things that first of all

00:35:28they won't come

00:35:29maintained

00:35:30And

00:35:31because I am

00:35:32how to say

00:35:34of the strategies

00:35:36that they have

00:35:37the capacity

00:35:38to suggest

00:35:40the subject

00:35:40in the choice

00:35:41of the answer

00:35:45the faculty of psychology

00:35:47of Padua

00:35:47it's a school

00:35:48of fame

00:35:48international

00:35:49where he taught

00:35:50Cesare Musatti

00:35:51and where it was invented

00:35:52the first car

00:35:53of the truth

00:35:59Joseph Sartori

00:36:00he is the director

00:36:01of the master

00:36:01of neuropsychology

00:36:02forensic

00:36:03and coordinates

00:36:04the group

00:36:04of research

00:36:05who worked

00:36:06to consultancy

00:36:06technical-scientific

00:36:07on which it is based

00:36:08the request

00:36:09of revision

00:36:10of the defenders

00:36:11by Olindo and Rosa

00:36:15These data show us

00:36:16as well

00:36:1727%

00:36:19of the innocents

00:36:20condemned

00:36:21they had

00:36:21at first glance

00:36:23originally

00:36:24confessed

00:36:25something

00:36:25that they had not done

00:36:27beyond the statistics

00:36:28it's difficult to understand

00:36:29how one can

00:36:30confess something

00:36:31that he didn't do

00:36:33I understand that

00:36:34it's difficult

00:36:35to be conceived

00:36:36but

00:36:36the numbers

00:36:37they say this

00:36:38the researchers

00:36:39who have dealt with

00:36:41of these false

00:36:43certain confessions

00:36:44they went

00:36:44in search

00:36:46of those who were

00:36:46the factors

00:36:47predisposing

00:36:48which concern

00:36:49the person

00:36:50who confesses

00:36:51intellectual disabilities

00:36:53it's an internal factor

00:36:55And

00:36:56exaggeration

00:36:57of the evidence

00:36:57of accusation

00:36:58it's an external factor

00:36:59listen madam

00:37:00look, she

00:37:00risk of gastro

00:37:02she knows what it means

00:37:04of gastro

00:37:05he knows what it means

00:37:06of gastro

00:37:07it means that she

00:37:07the last time

00:37:08what does he say?

00:37:09his Venetian

00:37:09his life

00:37:09It was 5 minutes ago

00:37:10an hour ago

00:37:11when it was

00:37:12Enough

00:37:15in Rosa's case

00:37:16we were able

00:37:18to highlight

00:37:19who was suffering

00:37:20of a disability

00:37:21intellectual

00:37:22it's a new term

00:37:24with which

00:37:24today we refer to it

00:37:26to mental retardation

00:37:30Cristina too

00:37:31Scarpazza

00:37:32sign

00:37:32the master

00:37:33of neuropsychology

00:37:34forensic

00:37:34of the university

00:37:35of Padua

00:37:36where the massacre

00:37:36of grass

00:37:37it's one of the cases

00:37:38most studied

00:37:40Surely

00:37:41the feature

00:37:42principal

00:37:42of Rosa

00:37:43it's the level

00:37:43of operation

00:37:44intellectual

00:37:45very low

00:37:45doing an analysis

00:37:46very meticulous

00:37:47we noticed

00:37:48like her

00:37:48have done

00:37:49a lot of effort

00:37:50to understand

00:37:51some questions

00:37:56he doesn't remember

00:37:57its date

00:37:58by birth

00:37:58these that I'm showing

00:38:00they are all extracted

00:38:02from the minutes

00:38:03and from the audio

00:38:04he doesn't remember

00:38:06the dates

00:38:06and the timetables

00:38:07he doesn't remember

00:38:08the surname

00:38:08of the neighbors

00:38:09at home

00:38:09he doesn't remember

00:38:11the name

00:38:11of the stations

00:38:12railways

00:38:12closer

00:38:13to the city

00:38:14of grass

00:38:14he can't tell the difference

00:38:16the right

00:38:16and the left

00:38:18has a deficit

00:38:19of capacity

00:38:20of esteem

00:38:20for example

00:38:21how much does it measure?

00:38:22the area

00:38:22of a sheet

00:38:23double

00:38:24she tells me

00:38:2446 cm

00:38:25for 50 cm

00:38:29how many kg

00:38:30can lift

00:38:31an athlete

00:38:31weightlifter

00:38:32and the Rose

00:38:33he answers

00:38:338 kg

00:38:34Rosa's profile

00:38:35you see that

00:38:35it is absolutely

00:38:37below

00:38:37of the norm

00:38:38in any

00:38:39subtest

00:38:40that we have done

00:38:42this makes Rosa

00:38:43a person

00:38:44highly fragile

00:38:45from the point of view

00:38:46cognitive

00:38:46for her

00:38:47it's completely

00:38:47impossible

00:38:48plan

00:38:49a massacre

00:38:50like that one

00:38:51that was given to her

00:38:51attributed

00:38:52without leaving

00:38:52a small trace

00:38:59this however

00:39:00could be

00:39:01also a topic

00:39:02diametrically opposed

00:39:03Meaning what

00:39:04how do they do it

00:39:04two people

00:39:05with that level

00:39:06to succeed

00:39:07to build

00:39:08to machine

00:39:09a whole series

00:39:10of details

00:39:11a reconstruction

00:39:12of a crime

00:39:13Like this

00:39:14well done

00:39:15own

00:39:16by virtue

00:39:17of this

00:39:18I use a term

00:39:21Perhaps

00:39:22Surely

00:39:22unpleasant

00:39:23but to make it clear

00:39:24poverty

00:39:25cultural

00:39:26intellectual

00:39:26there have been

00:39:27of the pressures

00:39:29of character

00:39:29psychological

00:39:30those accustomed

00:39:31to have

00:39:32this relationship

00:39:33conflictual

00:39:34with the authority

00:39:34judicial

00:39:35probably

00:39:36they would have them

00:39:37tolerated

00:39:38and instead

00:39:39there are other subjects

00:39:41especially the subjects

00:39:42fragile

00:39:42and on these subjects

00:39:44any

00:39:45psychological pressure

00:39:47can induce them

00:39:48to confess

00:39:49a crime

00:39:50not committed

00:39:52the professor

00:39:53Tailors

00:39:53who is a consultant

00:39:54of many prosecutors

00:39:55defines it like this

00:39:56the confessions

00:39:57by Olindo and Rosa

00:39:58in the case in question

00:39:59we have them

00:40:01classified

00:40:01how to make it

00:40:02confessions

00:40:03acquiescent

00:40:03what is meant

00:40:04for acquiescents?

00:40:04acquiescent

00:40:05it means that

00:40:07he who confesses

00:40:09adheres

00:40:10to some

00:40:11directions

00:40:13to some information

00:40:14that come from

00:40:15from the questioner

00:40:15much of the information

00:40:17they were

00:40:18of type

00:40:18visual

00:40:19but the scene

00:40:20of the crime

00:40:21it was in the dark

00:40:22because there was

00:40:23the light off

00:40:24so for example

00:40:25certain details

00:40:26I am

00:40:28possible

00:40:29only if they see each other

00:40:30for example

00:40:31the photographs

00:40:36a circumstance

00:40:37the one in the photos

00:40:38of the massacre

00:40:39show

00:40:39during confessions

00:40:41confirmed by the minutes

00:40:42of the last interrogation

00:40:43of Rosa

00:40:50I don't know

00:40:52as

00:41:01explain it to him

00:41:01No

00:41:02he's explaining to me

00:41:03Very good

00:41:04Instead

00:41:06you want to know

00:41:07if the video confession

00:41:08of Rosa

00:41:09she is sincere

00:41:10or induced?

00:41:10stay with us

00:41:11after the advertisement

00:41:22I don't know

00:41:24how to explain it to him

00:41:33No

00:41:34he's explaining to me

00:41:35Very good

00:41:36Instead

00:41:43there are many hands

00:41:47the iron is side

00:41:49Where

00:41:51Work

00:41:52with your iron

00:41:53I started testing

00:41:55test

00:41:57most beaten

00:41:59more cut

00:42:01the more I felt

00:42:04it's stupid

00:42:06to tell him

00:42:07maybe not

00:42:08removed

00:42:08it's there

00:42:09but I felt

00:42:12more

00:42:14stupid

00:42:14it's the mother

00:42:20I felt

00:42:21strong

00:42:22the video confession

00:42:24by Rosa Bazzi

00:42:25registered

00:42:25from the psychiatrist

00:42:26Massimo Picozzi

00:42:27it's one of many

00:42:28controversial pages

00:42:29contained in the documents

00:42:30on the grass massacre

00:42:31where to serve

00:42:32to realize

00:42:33a psychiatric assessment

00:42:34biased

00:42:35but it becomes

00:42:35for public opinion

00:42:36the approved test

00:42:38that Olindo and Rosa

00:42:39they are guilty

00:43:05the description

00:43:07of the massacre

00:43:07made by Rosa

00:43:08with Raffaella

00:43:09that even

00:43:09would have reacted

00:43:10spitting in the face

00:43:11two attackers

00:43:12armed with clubs

00:43:13and knives

00:43:13contains

00:43:14multiple circumstances

00:43:16not only invented

00:43:17but in clear contrast

00:43:18with reliefs

00:43:19and autopsies

00:43:20I felt strong

00:43:24Me too

00:43:25I had my strengths

00:43:27Now

00:43:28with me

00:43:29with me

00:43:30Now

00:43:34do it now

00:43:42re-ageing

00:43:42when I went

00:43:44on the ground

00:43:44it was me

00:43:45that the

00:43:45with

00:43:46the diego

00:43:59the string

00:44:01she

00:44:03he was speaking

00:44:03Still

00:44:04and when

00:44:05we went out

00:44:06they were

00:44:06children

00:44:07Still

00:44:07these reconstructions

00:44:09detached from reality

00:44:10in which we speak

00:44:11really

00:44:11of evil spells

00:44:12are defined

00:44:13confabulations

00:44:14by university professors

00:44:15who analyzed them

00:44:17to prepare

00:44:18the request for review

00:44:19when we went out

00:44:21at home

00:44:22I came

00:44:23I hugged

00:44:24the house

00:44:25Why

00:44:26Raffaella

00:44:26was inside

00:44:27in a sect

00:44:29and he wanted

00:44:30pull us in

00:44:31he wanted to pull me

00:44:32in

00:44:32Me too

00:44:33the confabulations

00:44:35they are real

00:44:36symptoms

00:44:37psychiatric

00:44:37which consist of

00:44:38in construction

00:44:39of false memories

00:44:40referring to situations

00:44:42to which the subject

00:44:42he neither attended nor attended

00:44:44nor participated

00:44:45like when

00:44:46Rosa reports

00:44:47of having collaborated

00:44:48to the stabbing

00:44:48by Mario Frigerio

00:44:49injured after

00:44:50that Olindo

00:44:51had hit

00:44:52previously

00:44:53Valeria Cherubini

00:44:55Olindo is out

00:44:56when he

00:44:57era

00:45:00was missing

00:45:01one last step

00:45:02that he was

00:45:05falling

00:45:06because the wife

00:45:07it was on the ground

00:45:10Olindo shod it

00:45:13he called me

00:45:14a son

00:45:15when Olindo

00:45:17I have it

00:45:17so much

00:45:18with that gentleman

00:45:21I am myself

00:45:22put in the middle

00:45:23for divine

00:45:26and I had myself

00:45:27the affected one

00:45:28but I don't know

00:45:29if I had done

00:45:30Olindo

00:45:31if I had done

00:45:32that gentleman

00:45:33and I did

00:45:33that gentleman

00:45:34according to the consultants

00:45:37of the defense

00:45:37the inaccuracies

00:45:38and the circumstances

00:45:39invented

00:45:39contained

00:45:40in this conversation

00:45:41filmed

00:45:42there are many

00:45:43Furthermore

00:45:44is highlighted

00:45:45from the expertise

00:45:46the video results

00:45:47cut at the beginning

00:45:48and in the end

00:45:49assuming that

00:45:50Rosa and her

00:45:50psychiatrist

00:45:51they had said to each other

00:45:52something is first

00:45:53that after the video

00:45:54put on record

00:45:55but I challenge

00:45:56whoever

00:45:57who committed

00:45:58a crime

00:45:58so hastily

00:45:59to rebuild it

00:46:00in detail

00:46:01and be

00:46:02let's say

00:46:03in the

00:46:05overwhelming

00:46:06majority

00:46:07some details

00:46:07of that story

00:46:08it's a story

00:46:09truthful

00:46:15transcribed

00:46:15about the book

00:46:16by Pino Corrias

00:46:17and transmitted

00:46:17on television

00:46:18this video confession

00:46:20hasn't changed

00:46:21the outcome

00:46:21of the investigations

00:46:22but it has become

00:46:23for public opinion

00:46:24even before

00:46:25that he came

00:46:25the sentence has been pronounced

00:46:26certain proof

00:46:27of guilt

00:46:31they recognize me

00:46:32Very well

00:46:33those

00:46:33your criminals

00:46:40there

00:46:40and I recognized it

00:46:41who was my neighbor

00:46:42at home

00:46:43Mr. Olinto Romano

00:46:45she this person

00:46:46do you see her in this room?

00:46:48Yes

00:46:48it is Olinto Romano

00:46:49with his wife

00:46:50Yes

00:46:50it's the two of them

00:46:53when we started

00:46:54to take care of ourselves

00:46:55of the story

00:46:55in November

00:46:56of 2007

00:46:57we discovered

00:46:59that Frigerio

00:47:00he had nothing at all

00:47:00recognized

00:47:01Olynthus

00:47:01at first

00:47:02as they had written

00:47:03for 11 months

00:47:04the newspapers

00:47:04from all over Italy

00:47:05they had said

00:47:05the televisions

00:47:06from all over Italy

00:47:07but he had recognized

00:47:07a person

00:47:08completely different

00:47:09a person

00:47:10olive

00:47:11never seen before

00:47:12martial arts expert

00:47:13and taller than him

00:47:14Olinto is lower

00:47:16of him

00:47:16it is very well known

00:47:17and above all

00:47:18he is of complexion

00:47:18white

00:47:19if we want

00:47:20the physical description

00:47:21olive skin removed

00:47:22corresponds to Olindo

00:47:23hair

00:47:24lots of short hair

00:47:25cut low

00:47:27big

00:47:27strong as a bull

00:47:29olive skin

00:47:30actually no

00:47:33if there is a chapter

00:47:34of the investigation

00:47:35on the grass massacre

00:47:36on which you blamed

00:47:37and innocentists

00:47:38they will never meet

00:47:39certainly

00:47:40that's it

00:47:41on the testimony

00:47:42by Mario Frigerio

00:47:43coming out of a coma

00:47:44with the throat

00:47:45cut in half

00:47:46with all that

00:47:47which is

00:47:47with all the dioxide

00:47:49of carbon

00:47:50who breathed

00:47:53his first memory

00:47:55I think it is

00:47:56the terrifying one

00:47:57of a black man

00:47:58the bogeyman

00:48:02I understand the reasons

00:48:04of the investigators

00:48:04that they try

00:48:05to shake

00:48:06for example

00:48:07the witness Frigerio

00:48:08the only chance

00:48:09to reach

00:48:11the truth

00:48:11I don't understand

00:48:13the necessity

00:48:14instead of having to

00:48:15on a fragile person

00:48:16which he suffered

00:48:17a trauma

00:48:18which therefore has

00:48:18a memory

00:48:19which needs to be treated

00:48:20with delicacy

00:48:22stick it in his head

00:48:23the name of Olindo

00:48:24all those times

00:48:25when he didn't do it

00:48:26he independently

00:48:30there would be a first

00:48:31and an after

00:48:32in memories

00:48:32by Mario Frigerio

00:48:33there is the memory

00:48:34of the awakening

00:48:35and of the first interrogation

00:48:36harvested on December 15th

00:48:38from the magistrate

00:48:38Simone Pizzotti

00:48:39in which Frigerio

00:48:40does not recognize

00:48:41Olindo Romano

00:48:41like his attacker

00:48:42and there is the memory

00:48:44described

00:48:44in the Como classroom

00:48:45that would have been formed

00:48:47in the arch

00:48:4715 days

00:48:48between interrogations

00:48:49investigative interviews

00:48:50and conversations

00:48:51with the children

00:48:53If the face is known

00:48:56is recognized

00:48:57immediately

00:48:58as a family member

00:48:59so the judgment

00:49:01of familiarity

00:49:01it's an automatic process

00:49:05it happens below

00:49:06of 100 milliseconds

00:49:07The initial recognition

00:49:08by Frigerio

00:49:11it is the recognition

00:49:11of an unfamiliar face

00:49:13which has some characteristics

00:49:14in the description

00:49:15of those who have

00:49:16the people

00:49:17when they have to describe you

00:49:19a person

00:49:19that they saw

00:49:20for a few minutes

00:49:22In the deposition

00:49:24of December 15th

00:49:25Frigerio has it put in

00:49:26on record

00:49:26two details

00:49:27one who strengthens

00:49:28the other

00:49:28My attacker

00:49:30he had skin

00:49:30olive

00:49:31and in the building

00:49:32of the massacre

00:49:32there was a coming and going

00:49:34of non-EU citizens

00:49:35of Arab ethnicity

00:49:36They are sentences

00:49:37and exchanges

00:49:39between Frigerio

00:49:40and Pizzotti

00:49:40who questions him

00:49:41that I am

00:49:41very well understandable

00:49:43Pizzotti type

00:49:44asks

00:49:45but what did he look like

00:49:46and precisely Frigerio

00:49:48says complexion

00:49:48olive for example

00:49:50It was white

00:49:52of complexion

00:49:52No

00:49:53it's dark

00:49:54but black

00:49:59black

00:49:59olive

00:50:01olive

00:50:03olive

00:50:05olive

00:50:06hair

00:50:06shorts

00:50:08lots of hair

00:50:10shorts

00:50:11but many

00:50:12red

00:50:13reports

00:50:14with yours

00:50:14but she knew him

00:50:16no says Frigerio

00:50:18The main topic

00:50:20of research

00:50:20by Massimo Grassi

00:50:21psychology professor

00:50:23at the University of Padua

00:50:24it is auditory perception

00:50:25on which he wrote

00:50:27as many as 50 articles

00:50:28in international journals

00:50:29for the defense

00:50:30by Olindo and Rosa

00:50:31he took care of it

00:50:32of decoding

00:50:33of environmental interceptions

00:50:35a minute later

00:50:36about

00:50:37Frigerio

00:50:37at a certain point

00:50:38a bit like a student

00:50:39would raise his hand

00:50:40he would say but it was clean

00:50:41but in reality

00:50:41and Pizzotti

00:50:42that at that moment

00:50:43among other things

00:50:44he hears very well

00:50:45it was half a meter away

00:50:46I think from Frigerio

00:50:47it was very close

00:50:48then it would be created

00:50:49a situation

00:50:49a little bit too

00:50:51but surreal

00:50:52where this person

00:50:54has more takes

00:50:56he says no but it was so and so

00:50:57and this other one

00:50:58who ignores

00:50:58beautifully

00:50:59half a meter away from him

00:51:00one who is

00:51:01giving the solution

00:51:02of the case

00:51:02that he is looking for

00:51:03during the process

00:51:06from Como

00:51:07the deposition

00:51:08by Frigerio

00:51:08was at the center

00:51:09of a clash

00:51:10at white heat

00:51:10between prosecution and defense

00:51:12the question was

00:51:13he knows a gentleman

00:51:15what is called

00:51:15Olindo Romano

00:51:16yes I know him

00:51:17that's exactly it

00:51:17Please

00:51:20don't get nervous

00:51:21no I get nervous

00:51:22Please

00:51:23let me do it

00:51:24I ask

00:51:25that the president

00:51:26let me do it

00:51:27the clash

00:51:27it was closed

00:51:28from an improvised

00:51:29expertise

00:51:29then censored

00:51:30on appeal

00:51:31that the president

00:51:31of the race

00:51:32of assizes

00:51:32decided to lead

00:51:33in the council chamber

00:51:35using a program

00:51:36amateur

00:51:37of amplification

00:51:38that for the ear

00:51:39of those who listened in the courtroom

00:51:40that recording

00:51:41transformed the verb

00:51:42going out

00:51:43in the name

00:51:43Olindo

00:51:44the court gave

00:51:45his interpretation

00:51:46feeling it

00:51:47but with headphones

00:51:48in the council chamber

00:51:49that for yesterday

00:51:50of which

00:52:01to rely on judgment

00:52:03of people

00:52:03that they don't know

00:52:04the facts

00:52:05and that they feel

00:52:06for the first time

00:52:06these things

00:52:07and see

00:52:09that for example

00:52:0910-15 people

00:52:12they all hear

00:52:12the same thing

00:52:13it gives a lot of certainty

00:52:14the scientific method

00:52:16used by the professor

00:52:17Fats

00:52:17which provides

00:52:18listening

00:52:18in premises

00:52:19soundproofed

00:52:20and without the use

00:52:20of filters

00:52:21that alter

00:52:22the recording

00:52:23it's very different

00:52:24from what

00:52:25was used

00:52:25from the judges of Como

00:52:26and equally

00:52:27see people

00:52:28that in front

00:52:30to a sentence

00:52:31they split up

00:52:32and one feels

00:52:33one thing

00:52:33another feels

00:52:34another one

00:52:34another does not hear

00:52:35another one

00:52:35and maybe

00:52:36one has

00:52:37one's own honesty

00:52:38opinion

00:52:38and I say

00:52:38but I felt here

00:52:39This

00:52:39at that point

00:52:40that is no longer

00:52:41solid ground

00:52:44on the management

00:52:45of the first interrogation

00:52:46by Frigerio

00:52:47it went off

00:52:48within

00:52:48of the palace

00:52:48of justice

00:52:49from Como

00:52:49a sort

00:52:50dump

00:52:51barrel

00:52:51as if they were

00:52:52were the questions

00:52:53of the magistrate

00:52:54Pizzotti

00:52:54to induce

00:52:55the witness

00:52:56to describe

00:52:57her attacker

00:52:58like a man

00:52:58olive-skinned

00:52:59out of 16 questions

00:53:01made by the doctor

00:53:01Pizzotti

00:53:02that day

00:53:02as many as 6 questions

00:53:04they are all

00:53:05one-way

00:53:06but it was black black

00:53:08but what language did he speak?

00:53:09but they were all

00:53:10Arabs

00:53:11Moroccans

00:53:12those people there

00:53:13who frequented

00:53:13at Raffaella's house

00:53:14a person

00:53:16That

00:53:18start to realize

00:53:19not only

00:53:20who was attacked

00:53:21but that in this aggression

00:53:22his wife died

00:53:24he feels

00:53:26need

00:53:26to help

00:53:27the investigators

00:53:30to find

00:53:30a guilty person

00:53:34I ask myself

00:53:36in optics

00:53:37of the public prosecutor

00:53:38that goes

00:53:38in the hospital

00:53:40in the first moment

00:53:41useful

00:53:41to hear

00:53:42the test

00:53:42but from the minutes

00:53:44it does not emerge

00:53:45not even

00:53:45a minimum

00:53:47hint

00:53:49that somehow

00:53:50can bring

00:53:52to the person

00:53:53subsequently

00:53:54condemned

00:53:56evidently

00:53:56I'm very careful

00:53:59to understand

00:54:00to search

00:54:00to understand

00:54:01if there is

00:54:03if you can give me

00:54:04some useful information

00:54:05evidently

00:54:06he didn't say anything

00:54:07because if not

00:54:07the next day

00:54:08they would have returned

00:54:09Meaning what

00:54:10I am trying to say

00:54:10this does

00:54:11the public prosecutor

00:54:12Meaning what

00:54:12strikes the iron

00:54:14as long as it's hot

00:54:16in any case

00:54:17January 2, 2007

00:54:18Mario Frigerio

00:54:20actually does

00:54:20to put on record

00:54:21the name of Olindo

00:54:22for the sentence

00:54:23first degree

00:54:24the memory

00:54:25of the face

00:54:25of the neighbor

00:54:26emerged slowly

00:54:28because

00:54:28of the conditions

00:54:29of health

00:54:29and the shock

00:54:30immediately from the witness

00:54:32he knows

00:54:33a gentleman

00:54:36what is called

00:54:36Olindo Romano

00:54:40Olitto

00:54:41Expired

00:54:43Olitto

00:54:45he knows him

00:54:49that's exactly it

00:54:54now the name escaped him

00:54:57it's safe sir

00:55:00he has no doubts

00:55:04However

00:55:05although three times

00:55:06let it be said

00:55:06Safe

00:55:07and very safe

00:55:08of recognition

00:55:09Frigerio

00:55:10immediately after

00:55:11come back to talk

00:55:12of the comings and goings

00:55:12I do

00:55:13and not very recommendable

00:55:14in the house

00:55:15of the massacre

00:55:17I know it was always there

00:55:19on a sack

00:55:20of people

00:55:21and then

00:55:23even some faces

00:55:24not very recommendable

00:55:27Why

00:55:27I did

00:55:28the machines

00:55:28even a little bit

00:55:30broken

00:55:31we arrive at that name

00:55:32Why

00:55:33in doing research

00:55:35one of these

00:55:36how to say

00:55:37possibility

00:55:38they are the quarrels

00:55:39condominiums

00:55:39actually

00:55:40it wasn't any help

00:55:41it was a

00:55:42a suggestion

00:55:42very strong

00:55:43of a person

00:55:43which was still

00:55:44more must

00:55:44compared to when

00:55:45he woke up

00:55:46precisely because

00:55:47the effects

00:55:48of the forecast

00:55:48of carbon

00:55:49I'm like saying

00:55:50after-effects

00:55:50they are retarded

00:55:54his cognition

00:55:55it wasn't

00:55:56absolutely

00:55:56optimal

00:55:57and then

00:55:57how is it explained?

00:55:58the improvement

00:55:59Instead

00:55:59in recognition

00:56:00of the face

00:56:00how is it explained?

00:56:02the fact

00:56:02that in a hearing

00:56:03in the first hearing

00:56:03trial

00:56:04him

00:56:04he has many questions

00:56:05about the event

00:56:07he answers

00:56:08I don't know

00:56:08but

00:56:09remember

00:56:10the face

00:56:10of Olindo

00:56:11the problem

00:56:11is that over time

00:56:12it has been implanted

00:56:13a false memory

00:56:14false memory

00:56:15it's completely

00:56:15indistinguishable

00:56:16from a true memory

00:56:17for which

00:56:17Frigerio was really

00:56:18convinced

00:56:19of having seen

00:56:19Olindo

00:56:20in the three main ones

00:56:22interrogations

00:56:22the investigators

00:56:23they would have done

00:56:24to Frigerio

00:56:25hundreds

00:56:25of interventions

00:56:26suggestive

00:56:27thus conditioning

00:56:28the memory

00:56:29of what happened

00:56:30to begin

00:56:31from the second interrogation

00:56:32the one conducted

00:56:33from the marshal

00:56:34of the carabinieri

00:56:34Luciano Gallorini

00:56:35that on that occasion

00:56:37nine times

00:56:38it's done to Frigerio

00:56:39the name of Olindo

00:56:58the witness

00:56:59vulnerable

00:56:59he is a witness

00:57:00which is exposed

00:57:01to the elements

00:57:02let's say so

00:57:03some questions

00:57:03suggestive

00:57:04and then

00:57:04technically

00:57:05Frigerio

00:57:05can be defined

00:57:06a witness

00:57:07vulnerable

00:57:07decidedly

00:57:08he was a brain-damaged subject

00:57:10with lesions

00:57:10which caused

00:57:12of the defects

00:57:13of the shapes

00:57:14of disturbance

00:57:15of memory

00:57:15the questions

00:57:16suggestive

00:57:17that I am

00:57:17some questions

00:57:18basically

00:57:19which contain

00:57:20the answer

00:57:22let's remember

00:57:23that I am

00:57:24in the courts

00:57:25some questions

00:57:25prohibited

00:57:26to the subject

00:57:27normal

00:57:28let's say so

00:57:28to the witness

00:57:29normal

00:57:29the research

00:57:30they demonstrate

00:57:31that in the subjects

00:57:32let's say so

00:57:33neurolesis

00:57:34with lesions

00:57:35cerebral

00:57:35I am particularly

00:57:37misleading

00:57:38so what is it

00:57:38your conclusion

00:57:39our conclusion

00:57:40is that

00:57:41the Frigerio

00:57:42it's a subject

00:57:43unsuitable

00:57:44to bear witness

00:57:47I did it

00:57:48of the reliefs

00:57:49on the car

00:57:50in search

00:57:51of biological traces

00:57:52on the car

00:57:53of the defendants

00:58:00it's a car

00:58:01which brings

00:58:01in one of its points

00:58:02remote

00:58:03a trace

00:58:04from this track

00:58:06it was extracted

00:58:07DNA

00:58:08with features

00:58:09genetics

00:58:10perfectly

00:58:11superimposable

00:58:12to those

00:58:12of the lady

00:58:12Cherubim

00:58:17the process

00:58:18in the assize court

00:58:19in Como

00:58:19it was full of surprises

00:58:20one of the most

00:58:21controversial

00:58:22it was the decision

00:58:23of the investigators

00:58:23to patrol

00:58:24too much importance

00:58:25to the relationship

00:58:26of the RIS of Parma

00:58:27that he had not found

00:58:28at the crime scene

00:58:29traces that led back

00:58:31to Olindo and Rosa

00:58:34they are investigations

00:58:36that have been carried out

00:58:37from a department

00:58:38elite

00:58:38from a department

00:58:39who is used to

00:58:40to carry out

00:58:40daily

00:58:41this type

00:58:42of investigations

00:58:43for which

00:58:44the fact that

00:58:45you don't detect

00:58:45Nothing

00:58:46must be considered

00:58:48in a manner

00:58:49extremely

00:58:49be careful

00:58:53if there is a hunter

00:58:55of DNA

00:58:55and biological traces

00:58:57on the scene

00:58:57of the crime

00:58:58disputed by the prosecutors

00:58:59for the sake of scrupulousness

00:59:00and the ability

00:59:01these

00:59:01It's Marzio Capra

00:59:02on the massacre

00:59:03of grass

00:59:04works for the defenders

00:59:05by Olindo and Rosa

00:59:06and the first detail

00:59:08which intrigued him

00:59:09it was the absence

00:59:10of blood

00:59:11of the victims

00:59:11at home

00:59:12of the two condemned

00:59:13really

00:59:14have been analyzed

00:59:16even the filters

00:59:17of the washing machine

00:59:18the filters

00:59:19of the sink

00:59:20the siphons

00:59:21and everything else

00:59:21and in no case

00:59:23it was observed

00:59:24the slightest trace

00:59:26not even DNA

00:59:27not only of blood

00:59:28of attributable DNA

00:59:29note to the victims

00:59:34I don't leave

00:59:35no trace

00:59:36this is true

00:59:37it's true that

00:59:38between the little door

00:59:40of the house

00:59:41of the building

00:59:42of the Castagna house

00:59:43and the door

00:59:44of the garage

00:59:45tavern

00:59:46let's say so

00:59:46of the Romano house

00:59:47there are 30 steps

00:59:49exactly 30 steps

00:59:50clearly

00:59:50those 30 steps

00:59:51they were

00:59:52literally

00:59:53wash away

00:59:53from the intervention

00:59:55of the firefighters

00:59:56on the other hand

00:59:56Olindo explains

00:59:57that they put on

00:59:58on a large carpet

00:59:59to change

01:00:00everyone

01:00:01then they closed

01:00:02the carpet

01:00:02The female neighbour

01:00:03on trial

01:00:05he will say

01:00:05I remember

01:00:07they had a carpet

01:00:08at the entrance

01:00:08of the tavern

01:00:10a nice big carpet

01:00:10which I never saw again

01:00:14who committed this

01:00:16came into close contact

01:00:18with the victims

01:00:18so it can't

01:00:19not having reported

01:00:21over their clothes

01:00:22over one's clothes

01:00:23on their shoes

01:00:24of the evidence

01:00:26of the slaughter

01:00:27of the awful slaughter

01:00:28that the same

01:00:29had accomplished

01:00:32to think that one

01:00:33under these conditions

01:00:34manage to travel

01:00:36the journey

01:00:36to your home

01:00:38which was not far away

01:00:39enter the house

01:00:41deleting

01:00:42all the tracks

01:00:43it's a thing

01:00:44which is a lot

01:00:46very difficult

01:00:46to be understood

01:00:51another decision

01:00:52of the investigators

01:00:53which caused much discussion

01:00:54it was that

01:00:54not to entrust

01:00:55to a department

01:00:56specialized

01:00:57like that

01:00:57of the RIS of Parma

01:00:58the search for traces

01:00:59on Olindo's car

01:01:00the assignment

01:01:01was given instead

01:01:02to an expert

01:01:03of the command

01:01:04Carabinieri of Como

01:01:05this car

01:01:07had already been the subject

01:01:08of a thorough inspection

01:01:09by the Carabinieri

01:01:10then after 14 days

01:01:12the same car

01:01:13he's coming again

01:01:14paid attention

01:01:15by the investigators

01:01:16and this time

01:01:17is inspected

01:01:18with methods

01:01:19even more

01:01:20let's say invasive

01:01:21respect

01:01:22compared to the first ones

01:01:23and that these methods

01:01:24essentially

01:01:25they do not reveal

01:01:26still nothing

01:01:27it lights up a lighthouse for me

01:01:30on the fact

01:01:30how is it possible

01:01:31which then

01:01:31to Uminol

01:01:32instead there is

01:01:33identified

01:01:34something

01:01:37and yet Brigadier Fadda

01:01:38that's what it's called

01:01:39the carabiniere

01:01:40after searching

01:01:41a bit everywhere

01:01:42he managed to find

01:01:43a bloodstain

01:01:44by Valeria Cherubini

01:01:45on the metal rail

01:01:46which acts as a kick plate

01:01:47a discovery

01:01:48which seems incompatible

01:01:50with luminol

01:01:51an indicated reagent

01:01:52in many other situations

01:01:53all surfaces

01:01:55sanitary napkins

01:01:55that is, the surfaces

01:01:56that you can wash

01:01:58but that inside them

01:02:00they can hold back

01:02:02a few more

01:02:02molecule

01:02:03of hemoglobin

01:02:05the metal

01:02:06if you wash it

01:02:08everything goes away

01:02:09if you don't wash it

01:02:10you see the trace

01:02:14on the so-called

01:02:15third test

01:02:16that together

01:02:16to confessions

01:02:17and to the testimony

01:02:18by Frigerio

01:02:19he condemned

01:02:20Lindo and Rosa

01:02:20to life imprisonment

01:02:21there is another aspect

01:02:22that doesn't come back

01:02:23in case of result

01:02:24positive

01:02:25the rules of use

01:02:26of luminol

01:02:27predict that the luminescence

01:02:29be photographed in the dark

01:02:30but in the entire roll

01:02:32taken by the policeman

01:02:33Images

01:02:34with the lights off

01:02:35there aren't any

01:02:36about photographs

01:02:37what else is wrong?

01:02:39but the photographs

01:02:40even the order itself

01:02:41with which

01:02:42they were then

01:02:43collected

01:02:43collections

01:02:44does not respect

01:02:45the order

01:02:46with which

01:02:47were taken

01:02:48the order

01:02:49it is not

01:02:491-2-3-4

01:02:50as

01:02:51as

01:02:52would leave

01:02:52think

01:02:53the finding

01:02:54but it is

01:02:543-4-2-1

01:02:56it's absolutely not

01:02:57a pedantry

01:02:58Why

01:02:58for us

01:02:59order is everything

01:03:03now Brigadier Fadda

01:03:05he is retired

01:03:05that's why we try

01:03:06knocking on the door

01:03:07of his villa

01:03:08overlooking Lake Como

01:03:10in hope

01:03:10that can answer

01:03:11to some questions

01:03:15good morning Fadda

01:03:16I'm Alessandro Caeta

01:03:18a journalist from Tg1

01:03:19can we talk for a moment?

01:03:22why not?

01:03:24no I just want to tell her

01:03:25look

01:03:25own

01:03:26one minute

01:03:27since

01:03:28as you know

01:03:29a request is pending

01:03:29of revision

01:03:30it's a question

01:03:31very delicate

01:03:33perhaps it is appropriate

01:03:34that she

01:03:35tell us something

01:03:37hand

01:03:38I understand that it doesn't matter

01:03:39but there are

01:03:40two people

01:03:40which could be

01:03:42innocent

01:03:43No?

01:03:46but she

01:03:47I understand

01:03:47but

01:03:50the brigadier

01:03:51he doesn't answer

01:03:52but he calls his own

01:03:53former colleagues

01:03:54that they can't

01:03:54do something else

01:03:55that check

01:03:55the documents

01:03:56and leave us

01:03:57continue

01:03:58in our work

01:04:02this is the report

01:04:03That

01:04:04he compiled

01:04:06it turns out to have been

01:04:07prepared

01:04:08December 28, 2006

01:04:11at 11 o'clock

01:04:11refers to

01:04:13to a

01:04:15assessment

01:04:15happened

01:04:16two days before

01:04:17dated December 26, 2006

01:04:19at 11pm

01:04:20one of the problems

01:04:21is that

01:04:21the minutes

01:04:22as you can see

01:04:22it does not appear

01:04:23not even stopped

01:04:27for a magistrate

01:04:29like Cuno Tarfusser

01:04:30who drafted

01:04:30an autonomous one

01:04:31request for review

01:04:32on which

01:04:33along with that one

01:04:34of the defense

01:04:34it will have to

01:04:35express soon

01:04:36the court of appeal

01:04:37from Brescia

01:04:38to all the questions

01:04:39that they read

01:04:40on the investigations

01:04:41for the massacre

01:04:41of grass

01:04:42it will be necessary

01:04:43sooner or later

01:04:43give an answer

01:04:44in the conclusion

01:04:46she

01:04:47practically

01:04:48accusa

01:04:49of falsehood

01:04:50in documents

01:04:51of investigation

01:04:52No

01:04:53I actually

01:04:55I submit

01:04:56at the court

01:04:57which will have to

01:04:59decide

01:05:00on these requests

01:05:00of revision

01:05:01of situations

01:05:02of the critical issues

01:05:03in which one could

01:05:05also notice

01:05:06of falsehoods

01:05:06in documents

01:05:07it is possible

01:05:08a bloodstain

01:05:0915 days later

01:05:10resists

01:05:11on the metal weight

01:05:13of a car

01:05:14Yes

01:05:14absolutely

01:05:15Yes

01:05:15that view

01:05:16to the light

01:05:16absolutely

01:05:17Yes

01:05:17and here though

01:05:18Dr. Tarfusser

01:05:19he makes a mistake

01:05:19in his act

01:05:20why Dr. Tarfusser

01:05:22he writes that the stain

01:05:23of blood

01:05:23it was big

01:05:24two centimeters

01:05:26actually

01:05:27the clipping

01:05:29which was sent

01:05:30it was two centimeters

01:05:31but not the stain

01:05:32the stain was

01:05:32infinitely

01:05:33smaller

01:05:36I don't speak

01:05:37two centimeters

01:05:38the consultant speaks

01:05:40I

01:05:40I take from the documents

01:05:42what is written

01:05:43in the documents

01:05:44and having interpreted it

01:05:46the stain is bad

01:05:47that is this

01:05:47it's quite ridiculous

01:05:49because if one looks at the photo

01:05:50with circle number 3

01:05:52there is nothing at all

01:05:53point

01:05:53that is, there is nothing to interpret

01:05:56if not to say that there

01:05:57a stain

01:05:58it has never been photographed

01:06:00I don't point the finger at anyone

01:06:01and I provide no evidence

01:06:03I note from the documents

01:06:05certain situations

01:06:06that I submit

01:06:07to the judge's assessment

01:06:09point

01:06:09I don't do anything else

01:06:14and if really

01:06:15the sentence

01:06:15by Olinda and Rosa

01:06:16had been

01:06:17a miscarriage of justice

01:06:18who else could

01:06:19to have accomplished

01:06:20the Erba massacre

01:06:20stay with us

01:06:22after the advertisement

01:06:36whoever dedicates

01:06:38a note of caution

01:06:38even superficial

01:06:39to the protests

01:06:40of innocence

01:06:40by Olinda and Rosa

01:06:41one cannot help but wonder

01:06:43and if it hadn't been them

01:06:50who else could

01:06:51to have accomplished

01:06:52that horrendous massacre

01:06:53with awareness

01:06:55that journalism

01:06:56investigative

01:06:57It has many limitations

01:06:58and few resources

01:06:59and to try

01:06:59to take the lead

01:07:00an alternative track

01:07:01we need to go back

01:07:03in the days of the massacre

01:07:04Exactly

01:07:05the next morning

01:07:06when Carlo Castagna

01:07:08overwhelmed by despair

01:07:09for the tragedy

01:07:10which has erased

01:07:11half of his family

01:07:13he exits the gate

01:07:14to exonerate

01:07:15but only in part

01:07:17the son-in-law

01:07:18in Zuz Barzun

01:07:19I wouldn't want that

01:07:20that you unfortunately

01:07:22I had made them spade

01:07:22to your wife

01:07:24to your son

01:07:26my wife

01:07:28a weight

01:07:29which probably

01:07:31you

01:07:31you had pending

01:07:33a regulation

01:07:34of accounts

01:07:34drug-related

01:07:35the investigations

01:07:36they concentrate

01:07:37out of ten

01:07:37of Maghrebians

01:07:38who hated him

01:07:39among themselves

01:07:40there could be

01:07:41killers and instigators

01:07:42according to investigators

01:07:50to re-note the purposes

01:07:51of the story

01:07:52I'll get in touch

01:07:53with Abdi Kais

01:07:54Tunisian drug dealer

01:07:55which operated

01:07:55in the square of Erba

01:07:56expelled from Italy

01:07:58in 2014

01:07:58shortly after

01:07:59having expressed the will

01:08:00to make revelations

01:08:02on the Erba massacre

01:08:0310 years in prison

01:08:04with Azuz

01:08:05more than twice

01:08:07and with the others

01:08:09so they were always

01:08:11the same people

01:08:12with which they arrest us

01:08:13Often

01:08:13so they were

01:08:14my whose defendants

01:08:18until a few months ago

01:08:19Abdi Kais

01:08:20he had been stingy

01:08:21of details

01:08:21instead last February

01:08:23in Tunis

01:08:24in the context

01:08:24of the defensive investigation

01:08:25conducted by lawyers

01:08:26by Olindo and Rosa

01:08:27in a formal interrogation

01:08:29Kais

01:08:30provided circumstances

01:08:31and details

01:08:32of a possible regulation

01:08:33of accounts

01:08:34between criminal gangs

01:08:35cost his life

01:08:36to four women

01:08:37and a child

01:08:41useful for that matter

01:08:44for those two people

01:08:45that they are serving

01:08:46life imprisonment

01:08:48and it's already been 17 years

01:08:49that are inside

01:08:50without the possibility

01:08:51of a review

01:08:53in a process

01:08:54everything crooked

01:08:56two months of messages

01:08:58and video calls

01:08:58then on the eve

01:09:00of my arrival in Tunisia

01:09:01Abdi Kais

01:09:02he gets scared

01:09:02to speak in the first person

01:09:04and decides to delegate

01:09:05everything to his lawyer

01:09:06he was part of a group

01:09:08criminal note

01:09:10who was in charge

01:09:11of the drug dealing market

01:09:13and it was the group

01:09:14of the Tunisians

01:09:14he was in prison

01:09:17where he met

01:09:18Azuz Marzouk

01:09:19Azuz Marzouk himself

01:09:22he asked him

01:09:23to protect

01:09:24his family

01:09:25he was afraid

01:09:26precisely because

01:09:27it was known

01:09:29that also

01:09:30in the house

01:09:31in which it was accomplished

01:09:32that barbaric massacre

01:09:33there was

01:09:35a bargaining

01:09:36illicit

01:09:37there was the warehouse

01:09:38of money

01:09:39there was

01:09:39the passage

01:09:41of drugs

01:09:44from the interrogation

01:09:45it emerges that

01:09:46Abdi Kais

01:09:46was a resident

01:09:47in the house

01:09:48of the massacre

01:09:48very close

01:09:49to the drug dealing square

01:09:50in a few years

01:09:51the Tunisian clan

01:09:52would have cashed in

01:09:53by default

01:09:54over 300,000 euros

01:09:55unleashing the ire

01:09:57of a band

01:09:57of Moroccan rivals

01:10:03he talks about a clash

01:10:05between factions

01:10:06precisely for the dispute

01:10:08of this market

01:10:09of drugs

01:10:10a strong fight

01:10:12between the two gangs

01:10:13he even brought

01:10:14even to the stabbing

01:10:15by Abdi Kais

01:10:21the stakes

01:10:22it was important

01:10:23for criminal gangs

01:10:25Abdi Kais

01:10:26he thought immediately

01:10:27that that massacre

01:10:27could have been

01:10:28consumed

01:10:29in a dispute

01:10:31so cruel

01:10:32between these two bands

01:10:37Abdi Kais

01:10:38refers to

01:10:39even to the 'ndrangheta

01:10:41and refers to

01:10:42even to specific names

01:10:45Abdi Kais

01:10:47involved

01:10:47in an investigation

01:10:48concluded

01:10:48with his arrest

01:10:49and that of Azuz Marzuk

01:10:50ten months

01:10:51after the massacre

01:10:52he also makes other revelations

01:10:54like the previous ones

01:10:55all to be demonstrated

01:10:56in that investigation

01:10:58there was

01:10:59an intense activity

01:11:00especially on the floor

01:11:01of the catchments

01:11:02of conversations

01:11:04telephone

01:11:05in the house

01:11:06of Via Diaz

01:11:06where he was staying

01:11:08precisely

01:11:08Azuz Marzuk

01:11:09Therefore

01:11:10the phone

01:11:11of the house

01:11:11of the massacre

01:11:12was he being intercepted?

01:11:13it was

01:11:13and it was too

01:11:14during the period

01:11:15of the massacre

01:11:16it's a serious suspicion

01:11:17this is what Kais poses

01:11:18probably

01:11:19those communications

01:11:21captured

01:11:22but you don't find it

01:11:23they could have

01:11:24to reveal

01:11:25some elements

01:11:44for this evening

01:11:45the story of Ulindo and Rosa

01:11:46of this possible

01:11:47miscarriage of justice

01:11:48everything still to be evaluated

01:11:50and demonstrate

01:11:51it ends here

01:11:52so much more

01:11:53there is something to tell

01:11:54and weigh

01:11:54in this story

01:11:5517 years long

01:11:56just one thing

01:11:58it's certain

01:11:58three women

01:11:59a child

01:12:00victims

01:12:00innocent

01:12:01there are no more

01:12:02because of this

01:12:03the work of special

01:12:04of G1

01:12:04and TV7

01:12:05continues

01:12:06they are not here

01:12:36Thank you all.

Olindo e Rosa: Colpevoli imperfetti ? | Speciale Tg1 2024 [HQ]

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