- 6/27/2025
John and Adam discuss the hidden roots of modern revival movements through the lens of Adam’s personal journey. Adam shares his early involvement with Metro Christian Fellowship, a church tied to the Kansas City movement, and how its teachings and leadership structures set the foundation for later organizations like IHOPKC. As he traces his steps from Metro to All Nations and into international missions, he reflects on the theological and cultural elements that shaped his worldview—and how those same elements were used to control and harm.
The conversation gradually deepens into Adam’s raw experience of emotional and spiritual hardship while serving in Africa. He recounts being under the authority of a charismatic yet authoritarian leader, facing manipulation and mistreatment. The story explores the global reach of revival culture, the lack of institutional accountability, and the emotional toll of enduring harmful leadership structures. Adam reflects on the long-lasting effects and the difficult road to healing, while John adds insight into similar patterns across revival-driven ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:25 Kansas City Roots and Charismatic Overlap
07:22 Foundations of Metro Christian Fellowship and All Nations
10:53 Doctrinal Frameworks and Connections to IHOP
14:42 YWAM Influence and Global Mission Strategy
18:34 Power Struggles and Lack of Accountability
21:12 Sent to West Africa as a Missionary
25:04 Unexplained Supernatural Events and Growing Unease
30:02 Rocks Falling from the Sky: A Firsthand Account
35:05 Spiritual Abuse and Psychological Collapse
39:03 Failed Institutional Response and Lasting Trauma
43:04 Predator Returns to Leadership in Kansas City
45:09 Narcissism, Ambition, and Church Corruption
50:01 Struggles with Trust and Finding Healthy Leaders
53:04 The Power of Shared Stories for Healing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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The conversation gradually deepens into Adam’s raw experience of emotional and spiritual hardship while serving in Africa. He recounts being under the authority of a charismatic yet authoritarian leader, facing manipulation and mistreatment. The story explores the global reach of revival culture, the lack of institutional accountability, and the emotional toll of enduring harmful leadership structures. Adam reflects on the long-lasting effects and the difficult road to healing, while John adds insight into similar patterns across revival-driven ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:25 Kansas City Roots and Charismatic Overlap
07:22 Foundations of Metro Christian Fellowship and All Nations
10:53 Doctrinal Frameworks and Connections to IHOP
14:42 YWAM Influence and Global Mission Strategy
18:34 Power Struggles and Lack of Accountability
21:12 Sent to West Africa as a Missionary
25:04 Unexplained Supernatural Events and Growing Unease
30:02 Rocks Falling from the Sky: A Firsthand Account
35:05 Spiritual Abuse and Psychological Collapse
39:03 Failed Institutional Response and Lasting Trauma
43:04 Predator Returns to Leadership in Kansas City
45:09 Narcissism, Ambition, and Church Corruption
50:01 Struggles with Trust and Finding Healthy Leaders
53:04 The Power of Shared Stories for Healing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:43And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Adam Short, host of the Grit in the Wild podcast.
00:50Adam, it's good to be back. And today, to hear more of your story, we, sometime in the past, it's been a few months ago,
00:58I had you share your story, and you and your wife came on, and there's so much more to tell.
01:03I kind of feel like with all the different groups that you've been involved with, we could have probably, I don't know, 10, 15 different stories.
01:11But today, we decided to go back and choose one that is fascinating to me,
01:17and I think the listeners would be very interested to hear more about it.
01:21So, I'll just, I'll let you run with it, but today is another Our Stories with Adam Short.
01:27Awesome. Well, thanks for having me back, John. Always a pleasure.
01:30And yeah, when you asked me about, you know, which story, I was kind of like,
01:34all right, let's just roll the dice and pick one.
01:36Because I do have a few or several, depending on how you slice and dice.
01:43But, you know, really what came forefront to the top of my mind was to dive in a little more,
01:50hone in a little more about my involvement in Kansas City.
01:54So, a lot of your listeners and viewers might be more familiar with my commentary on Bethel.
02:00And I was very much neck deep at Bethel.
02:04But prior to that, I was actually in Kansas City and not a direct member of IHOP,
02:12but I was a part of an organization.
02:16Well, it's actually a church called Metro Christian Fellowship,
02:19which many of y'all will have heard of or, you know, are familiar with.
02:25Metro Christian Fellowship was originally founded by Mike Bickle.
02:30Back in early 80s-ish, I think late 70s, actually.
02:35And at that time, it was Kansas City Fellowship, KCF.
02:40And then it changed to Kansas City Vineyard, KCV.
02:44And then later down the line, it became known as Metro Christian Fellowship, MCF.
02:50So, I was not there in the early, early days, you know,
02:56back in like the 80s or 90s or anything like that.
02:59I actually moved to Kansas City in 2004.
03:03And so, a little bit of the backstory, I'll kind of give some context here
03:08and then talk through some of my experience.
03:12So, originally from the Carolinas, you can probably tell.
03:15I'm not from Kansas City or California or any of those other spots that I've lived in.
03:19But, yeah, from the Carolinas.
03:22But back in 2004, after I finished college,
03:28I was invited to go visit Kansas City to visit a very good friend of mine out there
03:35who had moved out there previously to be a part of an organization that was kind of pre-IHOP.
03:43It was known as Grace Training Center.
03:47And Grace Training Center was sort of a precursor, if you will, to IHOP.
03:56And it was more of a training organization.
03:59I did not have specific direct experience with Grace Training Center,
04:04but I knew several of the people who taught at Grace Training Center
04:08had, you know, overlap connections there.
04:12So, through that series of events, I ended up moving to Kansas City
04:17specifically to join a program that was sort of housed under Metro Christian Fellowship.
04:23And it was a church planting organization, a missionary missions organization.
04:28So, that was my goal, was to eventually go out as a missionary and plant churches.
04:36And so, you know, I moved to Kansas City.
04:40I had involvement informally with IHOP KC.
04:45I attended Metro Christian Fellowship during my two years living there
04:49and then spent a lot of time at Metro.
04:52And, you know, again, a lot of the leaders at Metro
04:54also were leaders in the organization I was a part of,
04:58the missions organization called All Nations.
05:01And All Nations is still around.
05:05It's a, you know, a missions organization.
05:08You know, it sends out church planners throughout the world.
05:13And it was actually started by Floyd McClung,
05:16who was one of the top leaders of YWAM
05:19with Loran Cunningham way back a long time ago.
05:24So, you know, I know I'm giving a lot of detail,
05:28but I'm trying to set the context here.
05:32Floyd, basically what happened was,
05:36so in 1999, around 99 to 2000 timeframe,
05:43Mike Bickle stepped away from Metro Christian Fellowship
05:47to start IHOP, right?
05:49And then Floyd, and I don't know all the details
05:52on the selection process,
05:54but Floyd McClung became the new pastor
05:58of Metro at that time.
06:01And so previous to coming to Metro,
06:04he had started All Nations,
06:07which is, as I said,
06:08a church planting slash missions organization.
06:11So he started that before he came to Metro.
06:13And then when he came to Metro,
06:16he brought his All Nations organization with him.
06:19And then it became sort of under the Metro umbrella.
06:22They were separate organizations,
06:24but they shared a building off of Warnall Road,
06:2712411 Warnall Road.
06:28I'll never forget the address,
06:31Kansas City, Missouri.
06:33They, you know, no longer meet there
06:36because the church doesn't exist anymore
06:38in its current form, to my knowledge.
06:40But at that time, you had Metro in that building.
06:44You had All Nations in that building.
06:46And you also had the,
06:49was it Demanding Christian School,
06:50if I'm remembering the name correctly.
06:53It was a Christian, you know, early education school.
06:57So all that was in that building.
06:58So there was a lot of overlap there
07:01amongst the leaders, the members,
07:06the members of the church,
07:07the members of the All Nations programs
07:10and things like that.
07:12So there's a lot of overlap
07:13between what happened in that building
07:16and then what happened over on Red Bridge Road
07:18where IHOP was.
07:20So I got to Kansas City in 2004
07:26to do the church planting school with All Nations.
07:31And, you know, I look back on All Nations
07:35and I would not call All Nations a cult,
07:37just to say that up front.
07:39I don't believe All Nations in and of itself is a cult.
07:43But I want to talk about how,
07:45because All Nations became
07:48sort of under the umbrella of Metro,
07:52it became, it was built for many years
07:56on the foundation of Metro, okay?
07:58And so the belief systems, the structure,
08:01the practices, I think fundamentally
08:07were built in a large part upon a cult.
08:13Because if you look at the overall history of Metro
08:17and the offshoots of Metro, i.e. KCF, KCV,
08:21you know, from that church
08:23were many sprouts and offshoots
08:28and tributaries, if you will,
08:30that sort of emanated out of that church
08:32over the decades.
08:34And one of those offshoots,
08:37in my opinion, was All Nations.
08:40Now, if you look at All Nations
08:43as an organization and their ethos
08:45and compare it to Kansas City,
08:47I'm sorry, to IHOP, KC,
08:49they're very different.
08:51They're very different, you know,
08:53they had slash have
08:56very different missions, if you will.
08:59You know, All Nations was a
09:00church planting organization
09:02that sent missionaries out
09:04all over the world,
09:06whereas IHOP, KC,
09:08was very much of an inward-focused,
09:10prayer room-based organization
09:12where people came into the prayer room
09:14to spend maximum amount of hours
09:17in prayer and worship, okay?
09:18So two different types of
09:21outworkings of practical
09:23belief systems and things like that,
09:27but still very much built
09:29on the same foundation, I think.
09:31So this is the early years
09:32that fascinate me.
09:34How it all came together,
09:35how it all came to be,
09:37and you're one of the few people
09:38who was in that
09:40that is willing to open up and talk.
09:42So this, for me,
09:44this is just fascinating,
09:45especially with concerns
09:46to my research,
09:47but what you're describing there,
09:50this is the doctrinal foundation
09:52that created what became IHOP,
09:55and I understand what you're saying
09:57about the two different entities
09:58with the two different mission types.
10:01What I'm really interested to know
10:02is some of the doctrinal framework
10:05that tied all of that together,
10:07because, as you know,
10:10I'm certain you're aware,
10:12and anybody who is involved with it,
10:13this developed into spiritual abuse.
10:16And for something to go,
10:19you know, I'm certain that
10:20in its inception,
10:21many of these groups
10:22had really good ambitions,
10:24good ideas,
10:25but slightly often
10:26some doctrinal point
10:28that was a snowball
10:29going down a hill
10:30and became bigger
10:31until it exploded.
10:33What were the doctrinal themes
10:36that joined all these together?
10:39And specifically,
10:40I'm wanting to know,
10:41out of my own curiosity,
10:43was the Joel's Army
10:44a big theme back then,
10:46or did it,
10:47had it changed later,
10:48or what was your experience
10:50with regards to the doctrine,
10:53the Joel's Army framework,
10:54and what, you know,
10:57end times revival missions
10:59that IHOP KC had?
11:01Yeah.
11:02Yeah.
11:02Back then,
11:04because I was so heavily involved
11:06in All Nations and Metro too,
11:08like, you know,
11:09I went to Metro as a church.
11:11I don't remember that
11:12being discussed,
11:13frankly, like,
11:15in the day-to-day
11:16All Nations curriculum
11:17or belief systems
11:19or anything like that.
11:20Was it discussed
11:21or preached about at Metro?
11:22I don't remember.
11:24But I will say,
11:25probably,
11:27well, no,
11:27let me go back a step
11:28because before all that,
11:29I was a part of Morningstar.
11:31I've been in the trifect.
11:32I was at Morningstar,
11:33then Kansas City,
11:34then Bethel and Reading, okay?
11:35So, but back in,
11:37back at Morningstar,
11:38there was talk about
11:39the Joel's Army
11:40because Bob Jones
11:42was very involved back then
11:45at Morningstar
11:47and he also was at IOP too.
11:49So, Bob Jones,
11:50you know,
11:50I was exposed to Bob Jones
11:52and some of that
11:53Joel's Army stuff
11:54here and there,
11:55but not directly as much
11:58when I was in Kansas City.
12:00But later,
12:01I was at Bethel.
12:02So, that theme
12:03did sort of ride
12:04across all three movements
12:06that I was a part of there.
12:08But then, like,
12:10to your question,
12:10what other,
12:11what were the doctrinal
12:12sort of beliefs?
12:15I think that
12:16under
12:17all of the,
12:19even though
12:20All Nations
12:20was more of a church planting
12:22oriented organization,
12:24it was still a charismatic,
12:26you know,
12:27a charismatic group
12:29that believed
12:30a lot of the same things
12:32about prophecy,
12:34about the supernatural,
12:36and all that stuff,
12:37I think,
12:37was,
12:38pretty much came from
12:40the framework
12:40that Metro had,
12:42you know,
12:42with a little bit
12:44of YWAM flair.
12:45Because, you know,
12:46remember,
12:47Floyd McClung,
12:48and he's a very well-known,
12:49you know,
12:49leader
12:50across YWAM.
12:52Anybody that was in YWAM
12:53would know Floyd McClung.
12:55He was almost as,
12:56almost as well-known
12:57as Loran Cunningham.
12:59You know,
13:00prolific author,
13:01everything.
13:02So,
13:03in that sense,
13:04I think Floyd brought
13:05his own sort of
13:06flavor slash
13:07variation,
13:08if you will,
13:09of,
13:10you know,
13:12his charismatic
13:12sort of leanings.
13:15But,
13:15I do think
13:16there are
13:17overlaps there
13:19amongst your
13:20doctrinal positions
13:21that people have,
13:22or those organizations had.
13:24I had no beef
13:25of Floyd.
13:25I knew Floyd,
13:26just to make that clear.
13:27Like,
13:27I had no,
13:28my abuse did not happen
13:29because of Floyd directly.
13:31It was,
13:31it was
13:32some other people
13:33that I'm happy
13:35to get into some of that.
13:36But,
13:36like,
13:36just to your question,
13:38John,
13:38I think
13:38that would be my recollection
13:41of the Joel's Army.
13:42Like,
13:42not as much front and center
13:43in all nations
13:44and Metro,
13:46but that's just going off
13:47my memory,
13:47which
13:48is probably not
13:49the most reliable.
13:51Yeah,
13:51that's interesting.
13:52The Morning Star
13:53was so heavy
13:54into it back then
13:55because I,
13:56I go back and forth.
13:57Who was the one
13:58who really brought this forward
13:59into IHOP?
14:00Was it
14:00Paul Kane
14:01that brought the Joel's Army?
14:03Was it Bob Jones?
14:03Was it a combination
14:04of the two?
14:05Or was it just simply
14:07latter rain in general
14:08because this had kind of
14:09disseminated through latter rain?
14:11But,
14:12sorry,
14:12I didn't mean to hijack your story.
14:14I'm just filled with questions
14:15trying to,
14:16trying to understand
14:17the early years.
14:18But,
14:19it's fascinating though.
14:20So,
14:21and you're mentioning
14:22YWAM,
14:23Jed and I are going through
14:24a bit of that history
14:26because he was also
14:27involved in YWAM.
14:29And there are some
14:30very,
14:30very interesting connections
14:32to YWAM,
14:33to all of my research
14:34as well,
14:35much of which
14:36I haven't yet published.
14:37I'm getting there.
14:38But,
14:39how much,
14:39so on the YWAM side,
14:42how familiar were you
14:43with their
14:44outreach programs?
14:45Were you actually
14:46actively going out
14:47with YWAM
14:48into other mission fields?
14:49What was your involvement there?
14:51Yeah,
14:51I'm glad you brought that up.
14:53So,
14:54YWAM was not
14:55officially,
14:58like,
14:59how do I say this?
14:59It was a separate organization,
15:01much,
15:01much larger
15:02than
15:02All Nations.
15:04However,
15:04because Floyd
15:05was an executive,
15:07very high up leader
15:08in YWAM
15:09for many decades,
15:10he had those connections
15:12to bring to the table
15:13when it came to building out
15:14All Nations
15:15as an organization.
15:16Okay,
15:16so I'll give you an example
15:17of what I mean.
15:20I knew
15:21lots of people
15:21who were in YWAM
15:22who did the DTS
15:23schools,
15:24discipleship training schools,
15:26and then they went
15:26on their outreach.
15:27You know,
15:27I have friends
15:28that did that
15:28at the personal level,
15:30but then
15:31beyond that,
15:32as an organization,
15:34when I was actually
15:35a missionary
15:35with All Nations,
15:36I moved to France.
15:38I lived in France.
15:40And,
15:40and then later,
15:42I lived in West Africa
15:43as a missionary.
15:45And during my time,
15:47both in Europe
15:48and Africa,
15:49because of
15:51the connections
15:52that Floyd
15:54and other leaders
15:55he knew
15:56in YWAM,
15:57right,
15:57because of that overlap,
15:59there was access
16:00to people
16:01and resources
16:03and facilities,
16:06locations,
16:07et cetera.
16:08So,
16:08you know,
16:09for example,
16:09I remember one time
16:11when I was living
16:12in France,
16:13there was
16:15a Europe
16:16event
16:17that All Nations
16:18had up in
16:19Lausanne,
16:20Switzerland.
16:21So,
16:22basically what that means
16:22is all of the
16:24missionaries in Europe
16:25go to
16:25one spot
16:27and you have
16:27like a retreat.
16:29And so,
16:29this was actually
16:30at a YWAM base.
16:31Beautiful property
16:32right on Lake
16:33Lausanne
16:34overlooking the lake.
16:36But I just make
16:37that point
16:38because
16:39even though
16:40YWAM was
16:41a separate
16:41organization,
16:43there was a lot
16:44of relational
16:45connections
16:46that Floyd
16:47had that he was
16:48able to bring
16:48to the table
16:49and sort of,
16:50and we had
16:50sort of informal
16:51access to those
16:52kinds of things,
16:53you know,
16:54within All Nations.
16:55And the other
16:55thing I'll mention
16:56too is
16:57when it comes
16:57to teachers,
16:59teachers in the
17:01school that I was
17:02in called
17:03CPX,
17:04church planning
17:05experience,
17:06some of the
17:07teachers also
17:07were from
17:08YWAM.
17:09so there
17:11were other
17:12folks who
17:13came in
17:13on staff
17:14who I think
17:14had history
17:15in YWAM.
17:15So there was
17:16definitely a lot
17:16of overlap
17:17there for sure.
17:18But I didn't
17:19ever actually
17:20do YWAM
17:22formally,
17:23like outreach
17:24YWAM.
17:24Our approach
17:26in All Nations
17:26was very different
17:27than YWAM.
17:28YWAM is a much
17:29more short-term
17:30missions organization
17:31where they send
17:32teams out for,
17:33you know,
17:33six weeks
17:34or,
17:34you know,
17:35three months
17:36or whatever it is.
17:36But what I was
17:37in a part of
17:38was much more
17:39long-term oriented
17:40of where you're
17:41going in,
17:41you're actually,
17:42the goal is to
17:42plant churches
17:43long-term,
17:45not like a
17:45short-term
17:46missions trip.
17:47That makes sense.
17:48And so when
17:48those groups
17:49came together
17:50and Mike Bickle
17:51is establishing
17:52his foothold
17:53in Kansas City,
17:53that made a
17:55good partnership
17:55because Mike
17:56didn't have the
17:57outreach,
17:57he was focusing
17:58on Kansas City
17:59and the two
17:59could come
18:00together.
18:00So I guess
18:01I understand
18:02that a good
18:03bit.
18:04Doctrinally
18:05speaking,
18:05what brought
18:06these two,
18:07these multiple
18:08organizations together?
18:10That is a great
18:11question that I
18:13don't know the
18:13answer to.
18:16I would love
18:17to know more
18:17about that.
18:18You know,
18:19I would love
18:19to know,
18:20and I've seen
18:21some of the
18:22correspondence
18:23that was released
18:24publicly back
18:25in,
18:26well,
18:27it was actually
18:28released after
18:282005,
18:29but I was
18:30actually in
18:30Kansas City
18:31when this hubbub
18:32happened between
18:33Mike and Floyd.
18:34there was a
18:35big controversy
18:36and a lot
18:37of this stuff's
18:38public.
18:38If you go
18:38dig it up,
18:39there were
18:40letters that
18:41multiple leaders
18:42of Metro
18:42wrote to Mike
18:45because there
18:46was,
18:46it turns out
18:47there was
18:47actually some
18:48beef,
18:49I think,
18:49that happened
18:50between Mike
18:51and Floyd.
18:52When Mike
18:53left Metro
18:54and went to
18:54start IHOP,
18:56you know,
18:56he sort of
18:57turned his
18:58back on
19:00any accountability,
19:01and even
19:02though his
19:03own church
19:04leaders were
19:05trying to
19:05like,
19:06I think,
19:07bring
19:09accountability
19:10to the
19:11best they
19:12knew,
19:12even though
19:12at that
19:12time,
19:13as I
19:13understand it,
19:14none of
19:14those leaders
19:15were aware
19:15that he
19:15was,
19:16you know,
19:17basically
19:18committing
19:19CSA
19:20against
19:20multiple
19:21people,
19:2117 people
19:22now that
19:23we now
19:23know,
19:23but the
19:27beef that
19:28happened
19:28between
19:29Mike and
19:30Floyd
19:30became more
19:32public
19:33later,
19:34and you
19:36can kind
19:36of see
19:36some of
19:37the beliefs
19:38of how
19:39church
19:39governance
19:40was handled
19:42back then.
19:42There was
19:42definitely a
19:43rift between
19:44what Mike
19:45believed and
19:45what the
19:46leaders of
19:47Metro were
19:47trying to
19:48push,
19:50right,
19:50and hold
19:51him accountable
19:51to an extent,
19:52but he was
19:53just shunning
19:53that,
19:54as it turns
19:55out,
19:55and he's
19:55going to
19:56bail,
19:56jump ship,
19:58and go
19:58start IHOP,
19:59and basically
20:00put that in
20:01the rearview
20:01mirror,
20:02excuse me,
20:04but like
20:04doctrinally
20:05specifically,
20:06I would like
20:07to know more
20:07about that
20:08too.
20:08I don't
20:09really feel
20:09like I have
20:10a good
20:10understanding
20:11on that.
20:12Yeah,
20:12that makes
20:12sense.
20:13I've been
20:13investigating
20:14many of
20:15the other
20:16connections,
20:16like the
20:17shepherding
20:17movement got
20:18involved to
20:19some extent,
20:20and I've
20:22been studying
20:22John Wimber,
20:23his involvement,
20:24and interestingly,
20:25Wimber's brief
20:27involvement with
20:28the shepherding
20:28movement,
20:29it seemed as
20:30though a lot
20:30of these
20:31charismatic groups
20:32were trying to
20:33find their
20:33footing.
20:34So it could
20:34have been that
20:35they were just
20:35trying to try
20:36something new
20:36to see if it
20:37could spark.
20:38There's this
20:39mentality within
20:40the charismatic
20:40movement that if
20:41you can spark
20:42that revival,
20:43you can hasten
20:44the coming of
20:45Jesus.
20:46And so maybe
20:47they were
20:48attempting that,
20:49I'm not certain,
20:49but there's
20:50a whole
20:51element of
20:52that that
20:52is just
20:52simply the
20:53charismatic
20:54movement,
20:54which could
20:55have brought
20:55it together.
20:57Fascinating and
20:59curious all at
21:00the same time.
21:01As you're
21:01talking, I'm
21:02taking mental
21:03notes so I
21:04can go research
21:04some of these
21:05areas further.
21:06Yeah, no,
21:06you're giving me
21:07ideas too to
21:08research further.
21:09I want to
21:10answer those
21:10questions too.
21:11This is part of
21:11my deconstruction
21:12journey and
21:13reconstruction,
21:14peeling back the
21:15layers, putting it
21:16all on the
21:16chopping block,
21:17and then
21:17trying to
21:19figure out
21:19what parts
21:21of this
21:22do we just
21:25need to throw
21:25away and what
21:26part we need
21:26to keep.
21:27That's just a
21:28never-ending
21:28drama, at
21:32least in my
21:32head.
21:33But I guess
21:34moving from
21:35there, just to
21:36speak to my
21:38experience and
21:39really the
21:40nitty-gritty of
21:41what happened in
21:41my personal
21:42life.
21:43I was in
21:44Kansas City a
21:45couple years
21:45there.
21:46And then
21:47once you go
21:48through the
21:48school, you
21:49know, once
21:50people went
21:50through the
21:51all-nation
21:51school, then
21:52the next step
21:54for a lot of
21:54people was to
21:56actually be sent
21:57out as a
21:58missionary, and
21:58that's what I
21:59did.
22:00And I was
22:00really fortunate
22:01at that time
22:02from the
22:02standpoint of
22:03support, like
22:04both financial
22:04and spiritual
22:06support.
22:06I had like
22:07four or five
22:07churches who
22:09sponsored me as
22:12a missionary and
22:12sent me out and
22:14financially
22:14contributed to
22:16the work that
22:19I was going to
22:19do over in
22:21Europe and
22:21Africa.
22:24So, kind of
22:26what happened
22:26was, through a
22:28whole story I
22:29won't get into
22:30right now, I
22:31became acquainted
22:33with a
22:35pastor in
22:36West Africa,
22:38an African
22:38pastor.
22:39pastor, and
22:40this was
22:41after I had
22:42been in
22:43France and
22:45made the
22:45decision to
22:46transition and
22:47move to
22:47Africa.
22:48So, I
22:49began getting
22:51to know this
22:51pastor in
22:52Africa, and
22:54just to kind
22:56of provide a
22:57backdrop, this
22:57person was, as
23:00I look back
23:00now, a very
23:01grandiose person.
23:02this person was
23:03very, very
23:05just always
23:08talking about
23:09these visions
23:09and dreams and
23:11encounters that
23:12he had, the
23:13supernatural
23:13encounters, he
23:14had all of
23:14these stories of
23:15just things that
23:16would blow your
23:17mind, right?
23:18Like, I'll give
23:19you an example.
23:20And truthfully,
23:21like, I still
23:22try to
23:24understand if
23:26some of this
23:26stuff is true.
23:27I witnessed
23:27some of this
23:28stuff with my
23:29own two eyes
23:30eyes in
23:31Africa, things
23:32that I cannot
23:33explain, that
23:37do not
23:37logically make
23:38sense whatsoever.
23:42And I'm going
23:42to share one of
23:43those.
23:44But before I
23:45do, let me say
23:46this.
23:47This pastor
23:48would tell
23:48stories about
23:49when, you
23:52know, he was
23:53preaching in
23:54this certain
23:54village.
23:55I can't remember
23:56where right now.
23:57But he told
23:59this story multiple
23:59times where,
24:00people were
24:01starving.
24:03And so, he
24:06basically, he
24:07said, I
24:07prayed, and
24:10you know, it
24:11rained, and
24:13there were all
24:13these water
24:14puddles on the
24:15ground, and
24:15fish started
24:16jumping out of
24:17the puddles.
24:18Okay.
24:19And people went
24:20and collected
24:21buckets and
24:22buckets and
24:23buckets of
24:23fish, and
24:24they were able
24:25to eat.
24:26And I'm, you
24:28know, I'm
24:28hearing these
24:29stories, and
24:30I'm, this
24:30is a guy,
24:31you're talking
24:31about somebody
24:33who came
24:33from a
24:35supernatural
24:36background.
24:38Like, I was
24:39at Morningstar.
24:40I had a grid
24:40for miracles.
24:41I, you
24:42know, I had
24:42an encounter.
24:43I met the
24:44Lord in an
24:44encounter by
24:45myself when I
24:46was a teenager.
24:47So, here I am
24:47in front of a
24:48pastor, working
24:49with a pastor
24:50in Africa, along
24:51with another
24:52missionary, and
24:54he's telling
24:55these stories, and
24:56I'm like, okay,
24:59this is so
25:01out of my
25:03realm of
25:03normal that I
25:05don't know what
25:05to do with
25:05this, but it
25:06sounds plausible,
25:07it sounds real,
25:08I don't have any
25:08reason to doubt
25:10what he's saying,
25:11but very, very
25:14soon after
25:15arriving in
25:15Africa, people
25:18talk about, they
25:19sensed something
25:20was wrong.
25:22Okay, and
25:23that was
25:23exactly what
25:24happened with
25:24me.
25:25I, it
25:27was, it
25:28was actually, I
25:29pulled up my
25:29journal from
25:31back then, that
25:32was 2007, and
25:35I remember in
25:35the first week, I
25:36had written in
25:37there that I
25:38had very, very
25:40serious concerns,
25:41and I was very
25:42uncomfortable with
25:44just, it's just
25:45intuitively, you
25:47know that
25:48something's wrong.
25:50But see,
25:51my, my
25:55optimistic
25:55outlook on
25:56faith and
25:58sort of a
25:59supernatural, like
26:00miracles and all
26:01that stuff, I
26:02pushed that
26:05down.
26:06I pushed it
26:07down.
26:07I said, no,
26:08just, let's
26:09just give this
26:10some time, I'm
26:12sure this will
26:12work out just
26:13fine.
26:15But it
26:16didn't.
26:16It didn't work
26:17out.
26:18It got worse,
26:19it got worse,
26:20and it got
26:20worse.
26:23I discovered
26:24that this
26:24man was a
26:28very unsafe
26:28person.
26:30And it
26:31wasn't just
26:31spiritual stuff,
26:32it was like,
26:35this is hard for
26:36me to talk
26:37about.
26:37I've not
26:38really talked
26:38about this
26:38publicly, so
26:39y'all bear
26:40with me.
26:40I was very
26:43afraid of
26:43this man.
26:45And he, if
26:49he was so
26:50controlling that
26:51if you did
26:52not do things
26:53exactly how he
26:54wanted you to
26:55do, he would
26:55go into fits of
26:56rage.
26:58And he would
26:59lay into you,
27:00I mean, just,
27:02he would just,
27:04you would,
27:04you would get
27:07chewed out
27:09and verbally
27:11abused,
27:12verbally berated.
27:13And so I
27:14began to get
27:15used to this
27:16type of
27:17treatment on a
27:17regular basis.
27:19And because he
27:20had a lot of
27:21stature in this
27:21country, he
27:23knew the
27:23president, we
27:24went and we
27:26met high
27:27level leaders in
27:28the country that
27:29he knew, he was
27:30very connected
27:31politically.
27:34You know, not
27:35many people in
27:36the United States
27:36follow West
27:37African politics,
27:38so none of the
27:39names that I
27:39would mention
27:40would mean
27:40anything to a
27:41lot of, to
27:41most people.
27:42But I will
27:43tell you that
27:45he was very
27:45well connected.
27:47And so here I
27:48am, I'm just a
27:48little nobody,
27:49right?
27:50Like I'm a
27:51little bitty,
27:52no person,
27:53nobody person in
27:54Africa here trying
27:55to plant a
27:57church.
27:58And what I
28:00was taught is
28:01you submit to
28:02the pastor.
28:04You know, and
28:06this is even
28:09before I was
28:09exposed to
28:10Bethel's honor
28:10culture, but
28:11even at that
28:12point I knew
28:13that, okay,
28:14what you're
28:14supposed to do
28:15here is you're
28:15supposed to
28:16listen to what
28:17the pastor says,
28:19honor the
28:19culture that's
28:20hosting you,
28:21and just, you
28:23know, basically
28:23do what you're
28:25told.
28:27So that's what
28:28I try to do.
28:29And, but, but
28:30the more this
28:31went on, the
28:31more I felt the
28:33insides of me
28:35were collapsing.
28:37My spiritual
28:38framework, my
28:41relationship with
28:41God was literally
28:42being destroyed.
28:45I remember
28:46feeling like I
28:48could hear the
28:48voice of God on
28:49a daily basis,
28:50but as time
28:51went on, living
28:52in Africa under
28:52his leadership,
28:54that just, that
28:55totally just went
28:55away.
28:56Like I didn't
28:57know where God
28:57was, I
28:58felt like I
28:59had been
28:59abandoned, and
29:00here I am with
29:02a unsafe,
29:05unpredictable
29:05spiritual leader
29:07who not only
29:08treats me that
29:11way, but he
29:12treats everybody
29:12else that way
29:13too.
29:14Everybody, his
29:15churches, so,
29:16and there were
29:17multiple church
29:18locations we
29:19had, we would
29:19go all over
29:20the area, you
29:23know, preaching
29:23in the churches,
29:24churches, and
29:25you have to
29:26understand, in
29:28Africa, in
29:29this part of
29:29Africa, there
29:32is an awareness
29:33of the spirit
29:34realm very much
29:36unlike here in
29:37the West, and I
29:40don't care what
29:41you believe about
29:42the spirit realm,
29:43I'm going to
29:44tell you what I
29:45saw with my own
29:45two eyes.
29:47It is a very
29:48charged atmosphere,
29:50and it's very,
29:51very scary when you
29:53don't know what to
29:53do with it.
29:54Um, so
29:56there's this one
29:56time when these
29:59people that lived
30:00in a nearby
30:00village, um,
30:03they, this is
30:05the wild part,
30:06they had asked
30:07the witch doctor
30:07to come, and
30:09the charlatan, and
30:10a bunch of other,
30:11you know, dark
30:12magic people to
30:13come and fix this
30:14problem at their
30:15house, and
30:16nobody could do
30:17it, and so what
30:18would happen is
30:19they told us
30:20every afternoon
30:21at a certain
30:23time, I think it
30:23might have been
30:244 p.m., I
30:25can't remember
30:25now exactly
30:26what time, it
30:26was, there
30:27was still
30:27daylight when
30:28it would
30:28happen, these
30:30people would
30:31be sitting
30:32outside under
30:34their, they
30:35had like an
30:35overhang with
30:36a tin roof
30:37over it, concrete
30:38floor, and their
30:41house was
30:41surrounded by a
30:42seven-foot
30:43concrete wall, and
30:45the only thing
30:45above it was
30:46trees, and every
30:49afternoon, rocks
30:52would fall on
30:53their house, I
30:54mean, y'all
30:55are gonna think
30:55I'm crazy, I
30:56mean, I
30:57wouldn't believe
30:57this, if you
31:00told me this, I
31:00wouldn't believe
31:01it, so I
31:02don't, if you're
31:03hearing this and
31:04you don't believe
31:04it, I don't
31:05blame you, but
31:06they came to
31:07us, they heard
31:08that we
31:11believed in
31:11Jesus, and so
31:12they said, can
31:13y'all come down
31:14here and pray
31:15over our house
31:16and make this
31:16go away, nobody
31:17else can make
31:18this stop, so
31:20we went down, the
31:22pastor and I and
31:23the other
31:23missionary and some
31:24other people I
31:24think went, no
31:25actually it was
31:25just the three of
31:26us, the three of
31:26us went, and we
31:29went over to their
31:29house, it was this
31:30little village out
31:31in the woods, the
31:31bush, and we went
31:36in, they opened up
31:38their door, their
31:39gate, went in, so
31:42there's like a wall
31:42around their house,
31:43like a seven-foot
31:44concrete wall, and
31:46that's pretty
31:47typical in
31:47Africa, or at
31:48least that part
31:49of Africa, we go
31:50in, and they're
31:51very hospitable, you
31:52know, they offer us
31:53water, and then we
31:55came in and sat
31:56down under this
31:57overhang, it's
31:59outside, it's like
32:00you'd be on a
32:01screened-in porch,
32:02but no walls, right,
32:03it's like a, almost
32:04like an awning, if
32:06you will, tin roof,
32:09boards holding up
32:10the tin roof,
32:10completely solid metal
32:11and wood, okay,
32:13concrete floor, and
32:15they said, okay,
32:15we're gonna sit
32:16down, we're
32:16in, and it'll
32:18start here in a
32:19minute, and we
32:22sat there for a
32:22few minutes, and
32:23sure enough,
32:24clockwork, we
32:28started hearing
32:29rocks hit the
32:31ceiling, or the
32:32roof, the tin roof
32:33up there, not
32:35only did they hit
32:35the tin roof, they
32:37went through it,
32:38there were no
32:39holes in the tin,
32:41like it's, it's
32:44solid metal, it's
32:45like a tin sheet
32:47metal of a roof,
32:48and the rocks
32:51would fall right
32:52onto the concrete
32:53right in front of
32:54our feet, where
32:55our feet were
32:55planted on the
32:56ground where we
32:57were sitting, you
32:59heard the sound, and
33:01then they landed
33:01right in front of,
33:03and I mean, I'm
33:05listening to myself
33:05say this, and I'm
33:06like, I'm hardly
33:07believing it myself,
33:08but that is what
33:09happened, and the
33:11reason I share this
33:12is because this
33:14is the kind of
33:15environment that
33:16Africa is, it is a
33:18very, it is an
33:20atmosphere where
33:21people readily
33:22believe in the
33:23supernatural, they
33:24know that there are
33:26dark forces and
33:28bright forces and
33:30all this kind of
33:30stuff, and I'll be
33:35honest with you,
33:35that was a very,
33:36very scary
33:37experience, even
33:39now, like it's only
33:40been recently, I've
33:41been even able to
33:42talk about it, and
33:44not be completely
33:45horrified, like
33:47just, it's hard to
33:49explain, like when
33:50you experience
33:50something like that,
33:51it's almost like you
33:51were in the middle
33:52of a horror movie,
33:53so to wrap that
33:56story up and get
33:57back to the pastor
33:57for a minute, so I
34:00asked my friend, my
34:02other friend,
34:03missionary, who was
34:04there as well,
34:07hey, do you think
34:07we should take some
34:09these rocks back to
34:10the house with
34:11this and just see
34:11what happens, like
34:13we're just kind of
34:14curious, what, what
34:15would happen, what
34:16are these rocks, what
34:17like, were they, will
34:20they be there the
34:20next day, will they
34:21disappear, so we
34:23did, we took a
34:23handful of them
34:24back, and we set
34:26them outside of our
34:28house that evening,
34:29and the next day
34:31they were gone, they
34:33had totally
34:33disappeared, now I
34:35don't know if
34:35somebody picked them
34:36up and threw them
34:36somewhere, or they
34:38just dissolved, I
34:39have no idea, like
34:41this is, this is the
34:42kind of stuff that I
34:44don't have an answer
34:44for, I can't give you
34:46a logical explanation,
34:47it defies logic, it
34:48defies physics, it
34:50makes no sense, so
34:53that's the kind of
34:55place that I lived, it
34:56was a very, very
34:57different type of
34:59environment than the
35:00United States, but
35:03that's all important
35:04because this pastor
35:06that I worked under
35:07leveraged that
35:09spiritual dynamic, that
35:12supernatural slash
35:13spiritual, you know,
35:16belief system, and he
35:19used it to harm
35:20people, and he used
35:22it to harm me
35:23spiritually over a
35:25period of months to
35:28where it really left
35:29me, I was actually
35:31afraid for my life, and
35:32so ultimately I ended
35:33up coming back to
35:35the United States,
35:36completely devastated,
35:39and really not sure
35:41what happened to me,
35:43and this was at a
35:44time when spiritual
35:45abuse was not as
35:47much talked about, or
35:49you know, there
35:51wasn't as much
35:51awareness, I
35:53remember reading a
35:54book called The
35:55Subtle Power of
35:56Spiritual Abuse by
35:57Jeff, I think it's
36:00Jeff Van
36:00Vonderen, if I'm
36:02getting his name
36:03right, and that
36:04was the first
36:04grid I had for
36:05spiritual abuse and
36:06started really trying
36:08to get my head
36:09around what has
36:09happened to me, but
36:10that experience over
36:12there, I'm leaving
36:12out a lot on purpose
36:13because I don't want
36:14to talk forever, but
36:17it was so devastating
36:21that I'm still, and
36:22this was 18 years
36:23ago, and I'm still
36:25marked and different
36:27because of it, and
36:29I don't know if
36:31I'll ever fully
36:32recover, maybe I
36:34will, not sure, but
36:36the damage that the
36:37spiritual abuse
36:38caused under that
36:39pastor was, it
36:43was unquantifiable
36:44for me, and so
36:45yeah, that was a
36:48long monologue
36:50there, but that was
36:52kind of a snapshot
36:53of Africa.
36:55Have you ever
36:57wondered how the
36:58Pentecostal movement
36:59started, or how the
37:00progression of modern
37:01Pentecostalism
37:02transitioned through
37:03the latter reign,
37:05charismatic, and
37:06other fringe
37:06movements into the
37:08new apostolic
37:08reformation?
37:09You can learn this
37:10and more on
37:11William Branham
37:12Historical Research's
37:13website,
37:14william-branham.org.
37:17On the books page
37:18of the website, you
37:19can find the
37:20compiled research of
37:21John Collins, Charles
37:22Paisley, Stephen
37:23Montgomery, John
37:25McKinnon, and
37:25others, with links
37:27to the paper, audio,
37:28and digital versions
37:29of each book.
37:31You can also find
37:32resources and
37:33documentation on
37:34various people and
37:35topics related to
37:36those movements.
37:37If you want to
37:38contribute to the
37:39cause, you can
37:40support the podcast
37:41by clicking the
37:42Contribute button at
37:43the top.
37:44And as always, be
37:45sure to like and
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37:49listening to or
37:50watching.
37:50On behalf of
37:51William Branham
37:52Historical Research,
37:53we want to thank
37:54you for your
37:54support.
37:55You know, I have
37:56friends who are
37:57missionaries in other
37:58countries, and some
37:59of the stories they
38:00tell me, unbelievable.
38:02I, like you, think
38:04very clearly, think
38:05very architecturally
38:07minded.
38:08I want to know why
38:09things work the way
38:10they do and how
38:10they work, but some
38:12of the stories that
38:12they tell me, there's
38:13just no way that you
38:14can, it defies all
38:16logic, there's no way
38:16that you can explain
38:17it.
38:18And that's what they
38:18experienced.
38:19So, I, you
38:21know, like I say, I
38:22try to figure things
38:24out, and I wasn't
38:24there, so I can't, but
38:26it matches to some
38:28extent.
38:28I've had experiences
38:29with myself that I
38:31just can't explain.
38:32How did this happen?
38:33Why did this happen?
38:34You know, I was in a
38:36cult, and I was
38:38praying to God, but
38:38I've learned since
38:40that the cult, the
38:41God that they
38:41worship, nothing even
38:43resembles Christianity.
38:46So, was it a
38:47different God?
38:47I don't know, but
38:48there are some
38:49questions that I
38:50have, too, that I'm
38:50working through, and
38:51for now, I just put
38:52that on the shelf, and
38:53I focus on the
38:55research.
38:56But to the point of
38:58the pastor, it's
39:01interesting the way
39:02that you described
39:03that, and I'm glad
39:04that you did, because
39:05a lot of people will
39:06get into a similar
39:07situation, they'll
39:08endure spiritual
39:09abuse, and they
39:11leave, and they
39:11will think that the
39:12group is a cult.
39:14And maybe it was,
39:15maybe it wasn't.
39:16I'll let you
39:17answer that.
39:18But their
39:19experience with the
39:20leader brands the
39:22whole thing, the
39:23whole, sometimes it's
39:24an entire denomination.
39:25I'll never go back
39:26to this place.
39:27This place treated
39:28me like a cult.
39:29And all it takes is
39:30one bad leadership,
39:32bad leader that's
39:34appointed into
39:34leadership to cause
39:36somebody's entire
39:37life to change.
39:38That's how impactful
39:40this can be.
39:41After we left the
39:42cult, we experienced
39:44many different
39:45churches, and in
39:46one of them, there
39:47was a pastor that I
39:48will never forget
39:49some of the things
39:50that happened to
39:50me.
39:51It was very clearly
39:52spiritual abuse that
39:53they were attempting
39:54to do to me.
39:55Fortunately, I had
39:57just came out of a
39:57cult, and I
39:58recognized it as
39:59they're doing it, and
40:00I very quickly put
40:02my foot down, and
40:03you're not going to
40:04do this to me.
40:05But there are
40:06people, because it's
40:07a church, and
40:08because they're
40:08trained to respect
40:10leadership in
40:11churches, there are
40:12many people that
40:13won't put their
40:14foot down, and it
40:15can change their
40:16lives forever.
40:17So I'm glad that
40:19you're able to
40:20process it, but I
40:21understand that's
40:22very hard to work
40:23through.
40:23Yeah, no, absolutely.
40:24No, that's a good
40:25point.
40:25You can have one
40:26bad apple, and it's
40:27kind of like the
40:28verse in the Bible
40:29that says a little
40:30bit of leaven will
40:32work through the
40:33whole lump of
40:34dough.
40:34I'm kind of
40:35paraphrasing.
40:36But yeah, I mean,
40:37you can have a bad
40:38actor, and it
40:40doesn't necessarily
40:40mean the entire
40:41organization is
40:42corrupt, but it
40:44does beg a lot
40:46of questions, like
40:47why is that
40:48person or
40:50leader continue
40:51to allow to
40:52operate, especially
40:53after the other
40:55leaders are
40:56notified that the
40:57harm occurred?
40:58And I did want
41:00to add that I
41:01did notify the
41:03leaders of my
41:04organization, All
41:04Nations, when
41:07this abuse was
41:08happening.
41:09There were other
41:09allegations that I
41:10won't get into
41:11now that were
41:12quite dark that
41:14involved CSA, that
41:17folks came to
41:20several of us and
41:22told us about.
41:26And, you know, we
41:26raised it with the
41:28leaders of the
41:30organization in
41:31Africa and all
41:33nations in Kansas
41:34City.
41:36And to All
41:36Nations credit,
41:37they did send one
41:38of their leaders
41:39to Africa to
41:39meet to try to
41:41work this out.
41:44And unfortunately,
41:45it was largely
41:46ineffectual.
41:47the conclusion was I
41:52was the one with
41:53the problem.
41:54This was my
41:55fault.
41:57It was my fault
41:58that I was
41:59spiritually abused.
42:00That was really the
42:01conclusion that
42:03All Nations
42:04reached.
42:06And unfortunately,
42:08I came back a
42:09complete wreck.
42:10I was basically,
42:14it was as if I,
42:15you know, I just
42:16dropped off the
42:17radar.
42:18I mean, I had no,
42:19I had no help, no
42:21resources other than
42:22one of the leaders
42:25came to All
42:25Nations or came to
42:26Africa, which I
42:28give him that.
42:28That's credit.
42:30Great.
42:30But truthfully,
42:32like, I was a
42:34complete and
42:35utter wreck when
42:36I came back.
42:37And I just
42:38quietly left the
42:40organization.
42:40And that was that.
42:41And there was no
42:42care.
42:43There was no
42:44follow-up.
42:44There was no
42:44nothing.
42:46And to add
42:48insult to injury,
42:50this pastor
42:52ended up
42:54moving to
42:56the United
42:57States,
42:57to Kansas
42:59City,
43:00where he is
43:02still now,
43:03the last I
43:04checked,
43:05preaching.
43:06He became a
43:08leader of a
43:10church organization
43:11in Kansas City
43:11that I was very
43:12close to.
43:14I knew pretty
43:15much all of the
43:16people that led
43:18that organization.
43:18He worked his
43:19way, he weaseled
43:20his way in to
43:22that organization
43:23after all of the
43:24CSA allegations
43:25and after all of
43:26the,
43:27all the abuse,
43:31not just mine,
43:32but a lot of
43:32other people,
43:33worked his way
43:34into a church
43:36leadership in
43:37Kansas City.
43:39And I don't
43:40know all the
43:40details of what
43:41happened after
43:42that.
43:42I just know
43:43that publicly
43:43he is still,
43:45you can find
43:46him preaching,
43:48you know,
43:49preaching in a
43:50church.
43:51And so,
43:51and that was
43:5218 years ago,
43:5318 to 20,
43:54or sorry,
43:5518, 16 to 18
43:56years ago when
43:57that all went
43:58down.
43:59And so,
43:59this is an
44:00example of
44:01another,
44:03really, I
44:04would call
44:04predator,
44:05who has just
44:07been allowed to
44:08continue to
44:09rinse and repeat
44:10and I hope to
44:12God he didn't
44:12have other
44:13victims in the
44:14United States.
44:15I hope he
44:15didn't.
44:16But unfortunately,
44:17the pattern that
44:18we've seen with a
44:19lot of the
44:20high profile cases
44:21that have come
44:23out over the
44:23past couple
44:24years is,
44:25these are not
44:26isolated abuse
44:30stories.
44:31These are
44:31typically patterns
44:33of abuse that
44:34extend across
44:35many decades.
44:37And, you know,
44:38that was the
44:38case with Mike
44:38Bickle, it's the
44:39case with Robert
44:40Morris.
44:41And so,
44:43I'm probably,
44:44well, not
44:45probably, I know
44:46for a fact I'm
44:46one of several
44:48victims slash
44:49survivors of this
44:50pasture.
44:50but he's
44:53just, I don't
44:54know that anybody
44:55held him
44:55accountable.
44:57And, you
44:58know, he was
44:59able to get
44:59back or move
45:00to the United
45:01States and
45:01somehow be
45:03here and
45:04continue,
45:05continue his
45:06harm to
45:07people.
45:08And so,
45:09that to me,
45:10John, is,
45:12to go back to
45:13your question on
45:14the doctrinal
45:15overlaps, I
45:16think that is
45:18one of the
45:19underpinnings
45:20that all of
45:21these organizations
45:22have in
45:22common is
45:24they
45:25categorically
45:26will not
45:27hold predators
45:28accountable,
45:29full stop.
45:30And so,
45:31that's one of
45:32the reasons you
45:33get reiterations
45:35and new
45:35churches planted
45:36and new
45:37organizations
45:38created and
45:39founded by
45:40these same
45:40people is
45:42because they
45:42move to
45:43another state
45:43or another
45:44part of the
45:44town and
45:45create a new
45:46organization and
45:47they do the
45:47exact same
45:48thing again
45:50and again
45:50and again.
45:51I have a
45:52friend who
45:52often says
45:53that there
45:53are people
45:54who are so
45:55heavenly minded
45:56that they're
45:56no earthly
45:56good or
45:58they're so
45:58earthly minded
45:59that they're
45:59no heavenly
46:00good.
46:01And what he's
46:01essentially saying
46:02is you must
46:03have balance.
46:04What I've
46:04found in many
46:05of these
46:05groups,
46:05they have
46:06great ambitions
46:06and they
46:07think that
46:07they're doing
46:08God's work
46:09but they
46:10become so
46:10focused on
46:11God's work
46:11that they
46:12don't really
46:13see the
46:14world around
46:14them as
46:15the world
46:16exists around
46:17them and
46:18they don't
46:19see the
46:19people as
46:20just people
46:21they see
46:21them as
46:21tools to
46:22further their
46:23ambitions and
46:24God's work.
46:26Many of them
46:26as Bob Scott
46:28and I are
46:28talking through
46:28many of them
46:29have narcissistic
46:30tendencies which
46:31is kind of what
46:32you're describing
46:33this person has
46:34and the sad
46:36part about it
46:37what you said
46:37is absolutely
46:38true.
46:38The sad
46:38part about it
46:39is once you
46:40get up into
46:41higher leadership
46:42and you see
46:43somebody who
46:44really has that
46:45drive and
46:45ambition you
46:47tend to
46:47overlook the
46:48narcissistic
46:49tendencies because
46:50they may do
46:51more for the
46:52quote-unquote
46:53kingdom than
46:54the average
46:55rank-and-file
46:55member who
46:56doesn't have
46:56that same
46:57ambition and
46:58so they'll
46:58overlook
46:59personality traits
47:00that are very
47:01dangerous and
47:02put people in
47:02leadership and
47:04when those
47:04traits start to
47:07abuse people if
47:09they've advanced
47:10the quote-unquote
47:11kingdom just a
47:12little bit they
47:13see the advancement
47:14as more
47:14beneficial to
47:16the body of
47:17christians than
47:17they do the
47:18actual christians
47:19and so then
47:20what happens is
47:21it becomes a
47:22religion based on
47:23the agenda rather
47:24than a religion
47:25based on christ
47:25yeah that's a good
47:27point and it's
47:28almost like you
47:29know if you take
47:30all of the net
47:31positive so to
47:32speak the quote
47:33unquote like you
47:33said you know
47:34advancing the
47:35kingdom put all
47:36that over on
47:37one side of the
47:38page and on the
47:39other side like
47:40under the prose
47:41column look look
47:43at all the good
47:44stuff they're doing
47:44they're they're
47:45supposedly advancing
47:46the kingdom they
47:48are moving heaven
47:51and earth blah blah
47:51blah but then on
47:52the other side of
47:53the page you have
47:54all of the
47:55negatives the
47:57cons as it were
47:58cons exactly exactly
48:00what it is it's a
48:01con they're conning
48:03people and but you
48:06know if that stuff
48:06is hidden if we if
48:08we as a church just
48:10say well that's just
48:11not as bad as we
48:13think it is and
48:13you know we're
48:15just going to kind
48:15of wink wink he's
48:16doing good and
48:18let's just kind of
48:19overlook love would
48:20overlook that is
48:22kind of the belief
48:23but but that's not
48:26true that's false
48:27like love actually
48:29cares for the one
48:31person that's bleeding
48:32out in the ditch I
48:33mean it's like the
48:34good Samaritan story
48:36and the good
48:38Samaritan story was
48:39an indictment upon
48:41the church well not
48:42the church leaders but
48:43the religious leaders
48:44of the day during
48:45Jesus's time they
48:46were totally offended
48:47when he shared that
48:49a Samaritan had
48:50stopped to help
48:51somebody because the
48:53Samaritan was kind
48:53of like what they
48:54called a half breed
48:55back then and but
48:58now this the good
49:02Samaritan story is an
49:03indictment upon our
49:04current church and
49:05religious leadership
49:06because the
49:09narcissistic leaders
49:10are too busy and
49:12too important to
49:13stop for the one
49:14person bleeding out
49:15and what's ironic is
49:17I cannot tell you how
49:19often I've heard
49:20that heard it taught
49:23from like pulpits
49:24and stages well
49:26Jesus stops for the
49:27one except they
49:29don't do that they
49:31don't do they don't
49:32stop for the one
49:33they are after the
49:35crowds they're after
49:35the dollars they're
49:36after the fame they're
49:37after the influence
49:38they're after you know
49:39anything that advances
49:40their ego that's right
49:42and it's really sad for
49:43the people who've
49:44experienced the
49:45spiritual abuse because
49:46like I said and like
49:47you said you never ever
49:49get over it you always
49:50remember this because
49:52it's something that you
49:53really suffered through
49:54it would be the
49:55equivalent if you were
49:56to have been in an
49:57accident and had some
49:59traumatic injury to an
50:01arm you're always going
50:02to remember that that
50:03arm got hurt well this
50:05impacts your not only
50:07your spiritual belief
50:10set it also impacts
50:11your psychological being
50:13your well-being yes so
50:15there are people who are
50:16just devastated by this
50:17kind of thing and the
50:19leadership who are
50:20involved in spiritual
50:21abuse many of them
50:22without having the
50:25correct without having
50:26empathy a narcissist
50:28does not have empathy
50:29without having empathy
50:30they can walk all over
50:32people and not even care
50:33that they did and in my
50:35opinion I've I've voiced
50:37this a few times now but
50:38in my opinion there is no
50:41level of advancement for
50:42the quote-unquote kingdom
50:43that they can do that can
50:45offset this if you have
50:46this type of mentality
50:47you're not meant to be a
50:49shepherd of people
50:49absolutely yeah it's the
50:52exact opposite of the kind
50:54of people that should be
50:56shepherds you know who are
50:58not putting themselves
50:59first but are putting the
51:02people that they lead
51:03first you know so you
51:07know for me back to my
51:08experience like I it took
51:11me a and I still struggle
51:13with this like I I'm very
51:15hesitant to trust pastors
51:19you know I think I have
51:23grown in my ability to trust
51:26pastors and spiritual
51:27leaders but it's very very
51:31different than it used to
51:31be I used to be a very
51:32trusting person but now I'm
51:34like I'm like what are you
51:36what's your agenda like you
51:38know I'm like trying trying to
51:41constantly look past what you
51:43see at face value and say what
51:45is your end game again are you
51:47looking to get something out of
51:49me do you want money do you
51:51want blind loyalty do you
51:54want uh you know do you want
51:57to be worshipped on the stage I
51:59don't know you know uh but I
52:02will say though it's been cool
52:04to run across a few very very
52:07good people you know in recent
52:10years who are who are great
52:12pastors they're great you know
52:13spiritual leaders and you know
52:15they're trusting people and
52:17trustworthy people and doing a
52:19great job leading their churches
52:21and so um I think that most of
52:24those are people you'll never
52:26hear of they're not famous
52:28they're just doing the stuff so
52:31to speak like in their corner of
52:33the world and they're not seeking
52:34to you know be famous and make a
52:38name for themselves so that's
52:39that's really encouraging I find
52:41encouragement in that yeah I
52:43know a few people who are like
52:44that they they don't want their
52:47name to be recognized if
52:48something were to happen and
52:50they were to be instantly
52:51famous they would just walk away
52:52from it and um I'm I'm in this
52:55interesting world because of what
52:57I do bringing all of the people
52:59together to share their stories
53:01I'm kind of out in the open but
53:02it's the opposite of my
53:04personality as well I just I don't
53:06like it um I don't like I don't
53:09like the public attention but what I
53:12do like is I like watching people
53:14who can share their stories with
53:16other people who are have gone
53:18through something traumatic
53:19because all of the listeners who
53:22are suffering through similar
53:23experiences and can't yet put it
53:26into words when they watch another
53:28person who can overcome this and
53:30who can start to heal they too can
53:33find healing so thank you so much
53:34for doing this absolutely yes my
53:36pleasure thanks for having me well
53:38if you've enjoyed our show and you
53:39want more information you can check
53:40us out on the web you can find us
53:42at william-branham.org and the grit
53:45and the wild podcast for more about
53:47the dark side of the new apostolic
53:48reformation you can read weaponized
53:50religion from christian identity to
53:52the nar available on amazon kindle
53:55and audible
54:10the dark side of the new apostolic
54:16to the new apostolic
54:190unt on google
54:20you
54:20can you
54:21see you
54:23it's all
54:25the
54:25you
54:26you
54:27can you
54:28be
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