KCF: The Prophetic Movement That Shaped the NAR | Bob Scott | 515 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Bob trace how modern prophetic culture shifted from discernment and accountability into a system driven by influence, status, and institutional power. Drawing from firsthand experience inside the Kansas City Fellowship and its evolution toward IHOP-KC, they examine how prophetic authority was consolidated, how failed prophecies were protected, and why unchecked spiritual influence inevitably produces conflict, control, and disillusionment.  The conversation explores the historical through-line from William Branham and the Latter Rain to contemporary apostolic movements, showing how prophecy became systemic rather than spiritual. Along the way, they unpack biblical tests that were quietly abandoned, why flattery replaced discernment, and how religious systems mirror the same power dynamics found in politics and business.  00:00 Introduction & episode overview 01:45 Why Kansas City Fellowship matters to prophetic history 04:50 Bob Scott’s background and meeting Mike Bickle 07:15 Early Kansas City Fellowship and rise of prophecy 10:25 Cult dynamics: unity, separation, and authority 14:40 Influence, power, and religious systems 18:30 Accountability breakdown in prophetic movements 24:25 Branhamite influence on Kansas City prophets 28:15 Platformed prophecy and imitation culture 33:00 Anaheim event and prophetic escalation 34:30 “The Other Side of Revival” message 37:05 Testing spirits vs. spiritual overload 43:20 Flattery, ego, and decline of the prophetic 48:00 Money, resistance, and authenticity 53:00 Why untested prophecy becomes weak 58:15 Rebellion, reform, and closing reflections 1:00:05 Outro & resources  ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder

00:00:46of the Kansas City Fellowship and author of three books, the latest is Some Said They Blundered,

00:00:51Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International

00:00:56House of Prayer. Bob, it's good to be back, and I'm a little bit excited to get into this.

00:01:02I've kind of been building up to these moments. I've got this list of things that I really

00:01:07want to pick your brain on because you were there.

00:01:11And, you know, I've listened to many podcasts about IHOPKC, Kansas City Fellowship, all this,

00:01:17and it's all from people who learned about it after it went destructive. They really

00:01:22weren't there during the beginning. And there are some elements that you talk about that really

00:01:27match my story, and so I'm certain there's going to be a little bit of crossover. But

00:01:31basically, one of the things that I have been building up to is I want to learn more about

00:01:37the prophetic in the Kansas City Fellowship before it turned into the International House

00:01:42of Prayer.

00:01:44There's a reason for this. So whenever William Branham was in his destructive phase, that would

00:01:50have been the phase that created the destructive cult I was in. He was the only one. I'm the king

00:01:56prophet. There are no others. They're all fakes. They're all scoundrels, yada, yada, yada.

00:02:00But there was a moment in time prior to this, much like the Kansas City Fellowship prior to

00:02:06International House of Prayer, where it was building up this idea of this fivefold ministry where

00:02:12there's prophets, apostles, you know, teachers, pastors, etc. Well, in that moment, there were many

00:02:20prophets that were coming forward. There were many apostles coming forward, and they were all

00:02:25kind of joined in unity. And what happened is they built this platform from which they could build

00:02:32other ministries, and they started to watch those grow, and it became like this pyramid scheme of

00:02:38religion. It was, you know, there's a point of time in which Lateran and the Voice of Healing

00:02:43Revivals combined to form the post-World War II healing revivals. And then they split. They kind

00:02:50of split because of this thing I'm talking about. But there were many prophets, and then after the

00:02:55split, each group, if you study the climax of their destructive cult, they're usually, I'm the only

00:03:03one. There are no others. They all go down that same pathway. So I wanted to talk to you about the

00:03:09prophetic as it relates to the Kansas City Fellowship. That'll be a fun topic. You know, one thing that

00:03:15fascinates me about our relationship is that in many ways, we couldn't be more different in terms of our

00:03:25journey. You know, you grew up in this Pentecostal world. I grew up a Catholic kid in Milwaukee,

00:03:35and I lasted until my teenage years. But then I got kicked out of CCD for asking if we could study

00:03:46other religions. And my reasoning was, my father was looking for a new car, and we were out driving

00:03:53and sampling all these other cars to make a decision. And they had stuck me in this Catholic

00:03:59catechism class, and we only had one option. And I wanted to know what my other options were,

00:04:05anyways, that got me in big trouble. So then I spent the next seven years being an existentialist,

00:04:11even though I didn't know that was the word for it. Only when I was 18, I ended up having a rather

00:04:19interesting spiritual experience in the middle of the night, which created this curiosity of,

00:04:26who's God and what's out there. So I went to my parents' pastor, who was evangelical. So here I am

00:04:36then going to an evangelical Bible school, being taught that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are a

00:04:42dispensation that's past. Those things are no longer relevant, blah, blah, blah, blah. I meet Mike Bickle,

00:04:49we're roommates at Bible school. After Bible school, we reconnect after not talking. And he tells me

00:04:58he's pastoring a church in Rosebud, and I should come down and visit him. So here I am, I drive from

00:05:07Milwaukee down to Rosebud, Missouri, to this little country church that he's his first pastorate.

00:05:14And I arrive in the middle of the week, so I don't, you know, I'm just meeting him and some of the guys

00:05:21that are hanging with him. And then Sunday morning, we have church service. And this place is like a wild

00:05:30Pentecostal event that I have never in my life experienced, right? It's got wood floors, right? The old

00:05:40wood floor country church. So people are stomping, and there's all this stuff going on. And I'm

00:05:45horrified, right? Because here I am with my roommate from Bible school, right, who is an evangelical,

00:05:55and we're in the middle of a Pentecostal church, and my head was spinning. But it tells you a little

00:06:02bit about Mike's psyche, right? It's like, he was so bound and determined to be in the ministry,

00:06:08he didn't care what flavor it was. He just wanted a church. After the meeting, I like pulled him

00:06:16aside. I was like, I go, what are you doing? What are you doing? And he like winks at me and goes,

00:06:20don't worry, I'll have them all converted in three months to eat, you know, evangelical. Well,

00:06:26of course, that never happened, right? We get pulled further and further into it. I end up going to

00:06:33these meetings in Union, Missouri, which was kind of the county center, you know, and it's full gospel

00:06:42businessmen. So suddenly now, I'm with a whole group of guys that are telling me that my proof

00:06:47of being a Christian is that I'm supposed to be speaking in tongues. Like, I have no idea what this

00:06:53is, right? But I just listen to all these people babbling, right? And of course, my brain is just

00:07:00freaking out here, right? It's just like, what am I into? So you can imagine, right, this is only a few

00:07:07years before Kansas City. So we moved to Kansas City and opened the church in November of 1982.

00:07:141982. And in March of 83, this roly poly, white haired guy shows up with electrical pulses going

00:07:25through his fingers and just saying weird stuff, right? Just like, oh, my God, you know what I

00:07:33mean? It's just, you can imagine, it's just like, this was a collision. Like, so in your world,

00:07:38that would be like normal, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I grew up with this. In my world,

00:07:43this was like, what is this, right? So here I am now, I'm the associate pastor of this church,

00:07:50and suddenly now we have this force, this spiritual something that has just come crashing into our

00:07:59church. Because the whole purpose of the church initially was a giant prayer meeting. It was sort

00:08:06of modeled after the Moravians in their 100-year prayer meeting. Mike wanted to have day and night

00:08:13prayer. So the whole focus was prayer, right? And then suddenly, we end up having this prophetic

00:08:19thing, just T-bone us, or what was claimed to be prophetic, right? So just sidebar here, even though

00:08:27my book is called, some say they blundered, the original title was Prophetic or Pathetic.

00:08:34And the reason being is, is then the next eight years of my, well, seven years, really, the next

00:08:42seven years of my life, were me trying to struggle with exactly what you're talking about, this systemic

00:08:50prophetic thing. Because it literally changed the whole culture of our church. I mean, it literally

00:08:58took over. I mean, it was, I mean, I don't mean this derogatory, but it was like a weed. It just

00:09:05literally, we were having prayer meetings. And suddenly now, Mike puts this guy on stage, who's

00:09:13got these weird things he's saying, and people are just lapping it up. And I'm sitting there

00:09:21struggling, going, okay, this, I don't know if this is good or bad. I don't know what this is.

00:09:28Right? And so I spent the next seven years, just drilling down, asking a lot of questions,

00:09:35which got me into a lot of trouble and sideways with Mike on a lot of things.

00:09:42Because people didn't like my questions.

00:09:45Whenever you are on the outside of what I was in, and you're looking in, what you see

00:09:52when you see Branhamism, you see Pentecostalism, you see elements, trace elements of latter rain,

00:09:57all of these different things. And you describe the people much like you described me. Here's

00:10:04the funny part. While I was in it, we often heard sermons how we're not like those Pentecostals.

00:10:10Darrell Bock Really?

00:10:11Darrell Bock Yes. So I had in my head, I had programmed

00:10:15and indoctrinated this idea that I wasn't Pentecostal. And yet we were Pentecostal through

00:10:20and through. That's the funny part. Darrell Bock Now you got my brain going

00:10:23here. So why was that? Why did they need to make that distinction? Was there some conflict

00:10:28with Springfield? Darrell Bock Well, think of how a destructive

00:10:30cult works. Darrell Bock And by the way, people, if you don't know what Springfield

00:10:33is, it's the headquarters of the Assembly of God. Darrell Bock Exactly. So think about how a destructive

00:10:39cult works. At first, as you're building the cult, everybody's welcome. Come join our

00:10:44cult. It doesn't matter if you're going to church A, B, or C. We want to have fellowship

00:10:49one with another. And then once you get them in your group, you start talking about how

00:10:54bad churches A, B, and C are. Darrell Bock Oh, got it.

00:10:56Darrell Bock You guys need to leave those things. Darrell Bock Right.

00:10:58Darrell Bock Well, that's the way this worked. So Branham was – in the beginning, he would

00:11:02say things like, if people draw you out of your circle, draw a bigger circle and draw them

00:11:07back in. Everybody's welcome, and everybody from Catholics to Baptists to Methodists, et

00:11:13cetera. Darrell Bock Well, once he started being sanctioned by

00:11:16different groups, the Assemblies was the first. In 1949, I think it was, they issued this resolution

00:11:25and said, Lateran is a bunch of very destructive groups. So they cut Branham off. And what's

00:11:32interesting is that created this split in Pentecostalism. Darrell Bock I see. Darrell Bock

00:11:35Darrell Bock You were either with Branham in the latter rain or you weren't. And Branham

00:11:39was walking down the middle of this, trying to wait on both sides. And so what would happen

00:11:44is he would say things that were – either side could approve it – until they fully cut

00:11:51him off, and then he denounced them. Darrell Bock Got it. Darrell Bock

00:11:53Darrell Bock And this went all the way through until he finally is denouncing Pentecostalism in

00:11:58general. Well, what happens is he's dead. Now we have all of these people who are believing

00:12:04that every word spoken by this guy is the divine word of God. And how do you reconcile this?

00:12:10In the beginning, he's favorable with the Pentecostals. In the end, he condemns them. Well, it must have

00:12:15been progressive revelation. So towards the end, he's not Pentecostal. None of us are Pentecostal.

00:12:22Darrell Bock Oh, wow. Darrell Bock

00:12:22Darrell Bock We're different than those Pentecostals. Darrell Bock

00:12:24Darrell Bock Or other. Darrell Bock

00:12:25Darrell Bock The other, right? Darrell Bock

00:12:25Darrell Bock Or holy, right? Or other. Darrell Bock

00:12:27Darrell Bock Exactly. And how that relates to this conversation

00:12:31is this. Towards the end, he becomes the all-in-wonder prophet. There are no others.

00:12:37Darrell Bock There are all the mockeries. They're all the

00:12:39fake that's sent to deceive you. And we were given that mindset. The five-fold ministry really

00:12:45didn't exist. There was the kingpin who is now dead, and there's everybody else. But what happened

00:12:52was each minister who rose up tried to become central figures of their own, and so they would

00:12:59fight with each other. Darrell Bock

00:13:00Darrell Bock You have cities where there might be five different

00:13:02churches of the same denomination, none of which could fellowship with each other. They're

00:13:08all different. And so what would happen is you had a guy who's not claiming to be prophetic

00:13:13because that would step on Branham's toes. Darrell Bock

00:13:15Darrell Bock He's claiming to be in the five-fold. He's just a pastor. Where it got really interesting,

00:13:21as it relates to this conversation, is I was in one specific church, and they invited a – back

00:13:28in the old days, you'd call it the circuit-writer preacher, but basically this missionary-type

00:13:32preacher that's going from church to church, and preaches a normal sermon, and then at the

00:13:37end, he pretends like he has this prophetic gift. Darrell Bock

00:13:42I'm about 22 years old at the time. I could see straight through him, and he was doing stupid

00:13:47stuff, like picking out people based off of their – the way they're dressing, obvious

00:13:52things, right, and saying, I have – God has told me that you sitting there, and he goes

00:13:57through this spiel. Well, it's all fake to me, but he's in this church pretending to be

00:14:02a prophet, and the minister's allowing it. So when I think about Kansas City Fellowship,

00:14:10and in the early years of this, there were multiple prophets that kind of – some of

00:14:15them disappeared. Jed talks about his father and how he was cut off. But then towards the

00:14:22end, as you're starting to write what is called the prophetic history, you limit this

00:14:27to the cult's central mythology. So mythology basically replaces the idea that there's this

00:14:35prophetic gift coming to the church. Darrell Bock

00:14:38Well, if you'll indulge me for a second, I want to put on my sociology hat, because

00:14:43I think there's a cultural sociology dynamic that not only impacts the church world, but

00:14:50secular culture as well. And it's what I call the influence pie. All through history is, you

00:14:57know, I'm an avid historian, and so I watch all these battles. And what I became to realize

00:15:04is what the battle always is, is who's got the most influence. That's where all – whether

00:15:11it's political, you know what I mean, whether it's religious, whatever. And so the reason

00:15:17I use the analogy of a pie is that a pie – you know, there's a limited amount of people in

00:15:25a particular area, right? And so then there's a group of people in there, and they're all vying

00:15:32to be influential. I learned this the hard way in Zimbabwe with my friends that got killed. They got

00:15:41killed because in the civilization, they gained influence because they were saving people from

00:15:49a genocide and feeding people who were starving. The government was losing influence. And what I was

00:15:57so naive of as a 30-year-old was that whenever somebody gains influence, somebody else is losing

00:16:05it, right? It's a – there's a – you know, the pie is only so big. When somebody starts losing

00:16:12influence, conflict arises, and sometimes it gets deadly because you become a threat, right? The minute

00:16:19your influence increases over somebody who's powerful, right? In this case, they had guns, and

00:16:28you know, they had a military and all that kind of stuff, so they were able to take these people out.

00:16:34It's the same thing in the church world, right? And I find it fascinating, fast-forwarding now to our

00:16:41modern culture. When you see people defined today in the social media world, what are they called?

00:16:50Influencers. So this is so funny to me because here I am kind of figuring all this stuff out in

00:16:55the 80s about influence, and now years later, that's like a common term. They're an influencer.

00:17:02Well, what are they influencing, right? Who are they influencing? It gets – right? And then there's

00:17:08a battle. I'm seeing – you're seeing it now. I mean, I don't – again, I want to stay away from

00:17:14politics here, but you're seeing it in the post-Charlie Kirk world of Turning Point USA, right?

00:17:20And I had told some friends of mine that are on the board there, this is exactly what's going to

00:17:26happen now that Charlie's gone. Watch this. And they're all calling me going, oh my God, how did

00:17:33you know? And I said, it doesn't take a prophet. It takes a historian and a sociologist. This happens

00:17:39everywhere, all the time, right? So exactly what you're describing about what happened – it's a

00:17:46battle, right? And then initially, the battle was between the Assemblies of God in Springfield

00:17:52and, you know, the Branhamites in, what, Jeffersonville? Is that where the headquarters was?

00:17:59Darrell Bock Actually, it goes a little bit beyond that because

00:18:01there were states that became rogue states within the Assemblies. So Kentucky, for example,

00:18:06I've had people from Kentucky who were in the standard Assemblies of God churches that

00:18:11denounced Lateran who were inviting Lateran ministers, which is kind of funny.

00:18:16Darrell Bock But you see the battle? It's all about who – again, it gets down to – this

00:18:20is where why James 3.16 to me is just as important almost as John 3.16. Because James said, wherever

00:18:31you have selfish ambition and greed, right, you're going to have chaos and evil, right? So

00:18:38wherever there's a drive for status and stuff, i.e. gaining influence, right, wherever that's

00:18:46the motive, you're going to have conflict, chaos, evil. People are going to do bad things, right?

00:18:54And it's like, for somebody like me, who's, you know, like I said, studied history and sociology,

00:19:00I just keep – it's like a broken record. It just keeps happening over and over and over. And once

00:19:06you begin to see it, right, you see it's everywhere. There's a reason why there's 40,000

00:19:12Pentecostal denominations. Like, is that the most ridiculous number? Why do we need 40,000

00:19:20Pentecostal – I mean, you know, Protestant denominations, right? You know why? Because

00:19:26somebody was driven by the lust for status and stuff and wanted influence, right? And somebody

00:19:32wasn't giving it to them, so they threw a little hissy fit and went off and started another thing,

00:19:38right? So, they could have influence, right? So, the whole – so, where you're going with it is

00:19:44then what ends up happening once that person makes that move because they're driven by this

00:19:51desire to be influencers is it becomes systemic, right? They have to create a system

00:19:58to maintain the influence, right? And that's where you start getting memberships and signing up and

00:20:06loyalty and donation, right? You see this whole thing. And it's, you know, in the business world,

00:20:11we call it a sticky relationship, right? We want to have a sticky relationship with our clients,

00:20:16you know? And so, because we want to upsell other services, right? We want to handle this and we want

00:20:23to handle that for them. So, we want to integrate them into our, you know, into our business services or

00:20:31software or whatever so that they always need us, right? They're always dependent on

00:20:37the next upgrade. And so, we have a continual revenue stream. It's not any different in the

00:20:44church world. And this is what, you know, because of my Joseph Company global world, and if, you know,

00:20:50we can have a whole conversation about that sometime, but I live between the business world,

00:20:55you know, the secular and the sacred world is, people like to define it, even though from God's

00:21:00perspective, there is no secular sacred world, like that just doesn't exist. But I see it all

00:21:06the time, right? So, it's like people just think because we're the church and we're serve God that

00:21:12we're like different, right? And we're not. It's like we do all the same things. We just put religious

00:21:18words on it and it makes us feel like we're really being spiritual, right? But it's the same motives.

00:21:24Exactly. So, ironically, you're describing where I was hoping that you'd head, but I didn't want to

00:21:31lead you there because I wanted you to tell it as it was. But so, go back to the very beginning of

00:21:38this. Pentecostalism is kind of dying out. It does exist, but it's not the same. It doesn't have the

00:21:44same force that it did in the early 1900s. Lateran is basically the second iteration of this. And

00:21:51whenever they initially started this revival and it started spreading and became this thing that

00:21:57overwhelmed the Assemblies of God so much so that they denounced it, there was a weird aspect of

00:22:04truth in it, even though it was mixed with things that weren't quite, you know, sane. I'll say it like

00:22:11that. But in it was this. The reason why the Assemblies of God denounced it is because there

00:22:17wasn't really a system of checks and balances on who could become a prophet.

00:22:22Right. They basically, you could lay hands on someone and deem them to be a prophet and then

00:22:26suddenly, there's no accountability.

00:22:29Magically, you've got an unaccountable prophet.

00:22:31Yeah.

00:22:32But there was a biblical aspect that got removed later on. I don't know if you've thought about

00:22:36this. There is a passage, I believe it's in Corinthians, that says, let two or three prophets

00:22:42speak and let others judge. And if you study that word judge, it means weigh, evaluate, discern.

00:22:50Basically, is this a true prophecy or is this just some guy that's full of it? And in the early

00:22:55years, whenever everybody's welcome, everybody can be a prophet, you can be a prophet, you can be a

00:23:00prophet, you too can be a prophet. Well, they did this kind of thing. The prophets would prophesy.

00:23:05And somewhere I read, it might have even been in one of Branham's sermons, there were people that

00:23:11were doing this in the back room before services and people would weigh the prophecies and see are

00:23:16they accurate. And then what happened is over time, as this thing that you're talking about, where

00:23:22the balance is kind of shift and some guy wants status and stuff or some girl, there were females

00:23:29that did this too. Once they wanted to become the big wig, well, no longer are they accountable to

00:23:35the others when they prophesy. And so that shift happened. And, you know, like I said, the assemblies

00:23:43of God saw right very quickly, this is, this is bad guys, you need to stop this. Not everybody did

00:23:48until really, I want to say it was more towards the shepherding side of things whenever this is just so

00:23:55destructive people don't do this. And it kind of dissolved a little bit. And I often talk negatively

00:24:02about Wimber and some of the things that Chuck Smith was involved with. But in this one area,

00:24:08I would say that they're actually more towards the biblical side than what was brewing in the

00:24:14latter rain, post-World War II healing side. They kind of did, they didn't want authoritarian structures.

00:24:20Wimber did not. Chuck Smith did not. And then what happened is really odd, because fast forward

00:24:27to the Kansas City Fellowship, you have people who were clearly Branhamite. Paul Cain was clearly

00:24:33a Branhamite.

00:24:33Darrell Bock Oh, yeah, he loved going Branham.

00:24:35Darrell Bock We've not talked about it much, but I've talked to him on the phone,

00:24:39and right up to his death, he's promoting Branham. You've got Bob Jones, who was also promoting

00:24:46Branham, very strong Branhamites. And what did they do?

00:24:50Chuck Smith Which, of course, I was utterly naive, too, because

00:24:52I'd never heard the name William Branham, right? It's only until I got a hold of Harold's book,

00:24:58All Things Are Possible. I had no idea, right? I'm just this evangelical Catholic kid trying to hang

00:25:05on to the tail of a tiger, right? And this thing is so out of control. And then when I read Harold's

00:25:11book, I went, oh, my God, that's us. Like, this is where, you know what I mean? It's like,

00:25:17you know, some of you that know my story know that I was adopted, and I only learned a few years ago,

00:25:23my actual biological history. But it was sort of the same thing with our church family, right? It's

00:25:30like, oh, my God, that's who our daddy is. It's like, I didn't know that, right? It was like, oh,

00:25:36my God. That way, it made so much sense, right? It was suddenly, you know, like all these pieces

00:25:43of things that you're seeing, feeling, whatever, that you can't contextualize,

00:25:49right? Because it's just like, they're all happening, and it's all dynamic. And then suddenly

00:25:53you read something, and you go, oh, my God, that's how this all comes together. Who's your daddy?

00:25:59William Branham. Exactly. So you have these Branhamites, and now you've got this world where

00:26:08yes, there are people who are authoritarian figures. It's not that it doesn't exist,

00:26:13but it's not as widespread. And what happens is you have these people who are Branhamites

00:26:18start working with Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Fellowship. They basically institutionalize prophecy,

00:26:26and they basically turn it back to what Branham had created in the destructive years of his cult,

00:26:33whenever prophets were not accountable to anybody. There was no, this let two or three prophets speak

00:26:39and let others judge. There was no accountability for the prophecy, and that really set the foundation.

00:26:46It set the pace for what would become the New Apostolic Reformation authoritarian figures.

00:26:51Well, one of the big conflicts that Mike and I had early on was that

00:27:00because of Bob Jones's prophecies about Mike, right, that reinforced Mike's elite spiritual eliteness,

00:27:11right, fed, you know, the myth of Mike, the mythology around Mike, right, making him more influential,

00:27:21right? It's like Bob's, you know, Mike platformed him. My problem where Mike and I would get into

00:27:27conflicts, it was like, Mike, I have a passion for the prophetic. Like, I see where this can go

00:27:37if it's really God. This isn't it. Like, this is not the guy that I want to be modeling what is

00:27:46prophetic, right? Well, I got overruled. Like, totally overruled. And I understand later why I

00:27:53got overruled because this was, you know, Bob was the spiritual energy, right? That was, you know,

00:28:00he was the gas in Mike's tank. He was the nitro, actually. He was the, you know, Mike already was a

00:28:06dynamic personality, but Bob's prophecies about Mike were like an injection of nitro. It just took

00:28:11everything. But here's where it got institutionalized in our world is because Mike platformed Bob

00:28:21and gave him such stature. Guess what happened in the church? Everyone wanted to be Bob Jones.

00:28:33And this is where I really had problems, right? Because you had this whole group of young people

00:28:39who don't really have any history, any context, no theology, right? But they are pumped, right?

00:28:49Mike's got everybody jacked up and Bob's feeding all this. And because Mike put Bob on a stage,

00:28:56right? What does everybody see? Oh, if I want influence with Mike and the guys in leadership,

00:29:03the way to do it is to be like Bob. Well, I'm looking at this going, no, no, no, no, no, don't be

00:29:12like Bob, right? But I'm in the middle of a buffalo stampede, right? It's just like suddenly when this

00:29:18thing hits critical mass, it got so freaking weird that nobody could talk to you like a real human being.

00:29:27Everybody suddenly became parabolic because Bob would talk in parables. It's sort of like,

00:29:36I don't know if you've ever seen Being There with Peter Sellers, but it's the story of this guy,

00:29:43Chauncey Gardner, who's basically has some sort of disability and he's grown up his whole life

00:29:51serving a rich guy. He gets kicked out into the real world, but nobody realizes that he's actually

00:29:57slow. Like he's, you know, he's got a disability. And so anyways, in the movie, he starts, through a

00:30:06whole series of weird things, he ends up meeting world leaders and he's going, when the snow falls

00:30:13in the spring and the plant, right? And he's giving them these little gardening analogies and all these

00:30:19world leaders are hanging on the edge of their seats, right? Because this guy is so profound.

00:30:24I remember when I saw that movie, I was like, oh my God, this is like Bob Jones, right? In our world,

00:30:30right? It's like, this guy is a blue collar, you know, he lives in this little bungalow in Independence,

00:30:40Missouri, right? This little one bedroom house. He's like a tree trimmer. He's uneducated,

00:30:46right? And whatever. But because he speaks parabolically, everybody suddenly thinks he's

00:30:54profound. So suddenly now I'm trying to interact with people who cannot have a conversation with me

00:31:01because it's, well, brother, God showed me and I had this, right? And what got interesting to me,

00:31:08and this is how weird this gets, is it was like, because Bob spoke in these weird parables,

00:31:15now everybody had to tell you their parable, right? And the reason was, is because the weird

00:31:21dream or vision that they had was the thing that validated their propheticness,

00:31:28not the actual point of the whole thing, right? So I was like, can you just tell me that like,

00:31:36what's the point here, right? It's like, can we just forget all the how you got it and just tell me

00:31:42what, right? And it got like that to the point where it was like, this is weird. Like,

00:31:49like if anybody walked in on this from the outside world, it'd be like, who are these people?

00:31:57Where this even got weirder was because of Mike's whole

00:32:01focus on end time revival, right? So it became this, not only we're all prophets, right? And we all

00:32:09speak in parables. We all have dreams and visions. It's like, we're all getting ready to lead this

00:32:15end time revival, which is going to solve all the world's problems. Because the way that Mike's

00:32:23presenting it is that when the revival comes, the apostles and prophets are going to rule the nations,

00:32:29right? And it's all going to get better.

00:32:32And I'm watching all this and I'm going, this thing's out of control, you know? And so me and

00:32:39Mike are fighting behind the scenes because I just, I think, you know, this is, I mean, you know,

00:32:48we're in space now. Like we're untethered. Like we are going down a road here that's,

00:32:54it's not going to end well. And I remember in July of 1989, Mike ended up putting the three guys on a

00:33:06stage in Anaheim. And I watched what I call later the dueling prophets, right? And to get back to your

00:33:17world, because of the fact that these guys all wanted to be influential, right? Because it's all

00:33:23about, you know, being influential. They start competing with each other on stage about who

00:33:31could have the most dramatic prophecy. So the thing escalates, right? It starts, you know, with a word,

00:33:39you know, for sister, so-and-so and brother, whatever. And by the end of the meeting, I mean,

00:33:45it's, you know, it's worldwide revival and blah, blah, blah. Like, and it's just, and the crowd's going

00:33:50crazy. And I'm watching all this going, oh my God. Because the crowd doesn't know that egos, right?

00:33:57This, this need to be influential, this need to be seen as whatever is actually driving all this.

00:34:06They think it's God. And because it's tickling all their ears, they're like going crazy, right?

00:34:13Long story short, even before this event happened, I got so concerned about, Mike had to go somewhere.

00:34:20And so he goes, hey, you know, I, I did not like being in the pulpit. I don't like public speaking.

00:34:26And he goes, can you give a message? So I just decide to speak my truth, right? And my truth was

00:34:35this, that I had discovered in reading the book of Acts, that every time the supernatural power of God

00:34:41moved, people got hurt. And there were three groups of people, it was either religious leaders,

00:34:47economic leaders, or political leaders that attacked the early church and the leaders.

00:34:53In other words, real authentic spiritual power threatens people in power because you're gaining

00:35:03influence and they're losing it. And they get mad and they beat you up and they throw you in jail and

00:35:09they stone you to death. So I ended up giving a message at the church called the glory and the

00:35:15gory, the other side of revival. And I remember standing up there and people's mouths were just like,

00:35:21right? Because nobody had actually opened the Bible and showed them what really happens when the power

00:35:28of God moves. People die. People get martyred. That's what happens. And so it's like, I brought

00:35:39this real kind of sober, like at the end of the meeting, nobody was talking, like it was dead silence,

00:35:43right? Because I told them, I go, so you all want to do this? Well, you know, get prepared.

00:35:49Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern

00:35:55Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements

00:36:01into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's

00:36:08website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

00:36:15John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,

00:36:22audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various

00:36:29people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support

00:36:35the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe

00:36:41to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham

00:36:46Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. You know, there's another Bible verse

00:36:52that goes hand in hand with what is happening here. And the other irony is that you're talking about

00:37:00exactly where I was wanting you to go with the second point before I got there. Again, and we've not

00:37:05compared notes at all. No, we might have had this conversation. In 1 John, I think it's 1 John 4,

00:37:12it says to test every spirit to make sure whether the spirit is of God or not. So Bob Jones comes in

00:37:20and he's talking in all of these parables and people see it and there's not anybody who's really

00:37:26heeding that scripture. They're not really testing, well, is he just full of it or is this something

00:37:32God? Well, there's some are, right? There were some people that left because of Bob Jones. So,

00:37:37but the vast majority stayed because they loved what he was saying, right? And tickled their ears.

00:37:42And there's a reason for that. So within Branhamism, this is kind of a thing. And I look at IHOPKC much

00:37:49like I do Branhamism 2.0. Whenever you are, whenever you speak, often your brain disengages from your

00:38:00mouth. This is a problem that many, many people have. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's

00:38:06just simply you're processing at a slower rate than you're speaking. And people will say things and

00:38:11then suddenly realize that I made a mistake. And the normal person who's not been affected by any of

00:38:17this nonsense would say their conscience just kind of stopped them and said, my conscience stopped me

00:38:24because I told you something that wasn't true. What I meant to say was, and they will back up and say

00:38:28this. Well, in Branhamism, one of the tricks that he did, and this was brilliant if you think about it,

00:38:36to bypass that scripture where you're supposed to test the spirits, what do you do to bypass this?

00:38:44If one person claims they have a spirit and they're talking prophecy, they're talking all of these

00:38:48things, one person is doing it. Well, everybody who knows their Bible is going to look at that person

00:38:54and say, well, we need to test it because that's what it says in 1 John. But if instead you try to

00:38:59bring everything down to the spirit level, everything, now you've got people who they're

00:39:07walking in the spirit constantly. And he trained people to believe that that conscience, that inner

00:39:13voice that every human has – even if you're an atheist, you have this – train them to believe

00:39:19that that's God speaking to you. And I remember sermon after sermon, if you hear that still small

00:39:25voice, brother, and it tells you, you better obey it, and would give examples exactly like I just did,

00:39:30where if you've said something that's untrue, well, that's your conscience. That's what atheists,

00:39:36that's what Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic – everybody has this. But if you bring it down to the level

00:39:42where everybody is now in the spirit, how do you test this? Because there are too many people,

00:39:48it would overwhelm the system. And that's exactly what he did. He overwhelmed the system.

00:39:52Darrell Bock Interesting.

00:39:52Darrell Bock So once you institutionalize prophecy,

00:39:56then bring every single thing down to the spirit realm where everybody has the spirit. There's another

00:40:02thing that happens when you do this. There are people who are so arrogant, they don't want their

00:40:07spirit to be tested. So once it's down to that level, nobody wants their spirit to be tested.

00:40:13Anybody who claims to have it, well, we're just going to randomly say,

00:40:17yes, they've got it, because they told us they have.

00:40:19Darrell Bock Well, you know what happens when you do that?

00:40:23They split off and start another church,

00:40:26right? That's why we have all these denominations, because somebody got held accountable, and they

00:40:30go, I don't want to be held accountable. I mean, that's the whole reason why Mike started IHOP.

00:40:35People don't know the real story unless they read my book about it, but he didn't want to be

00:40:41accountable to a group of guys. So he ends up coming up with this miraculous spiritual event,

00:40:49right? That authorized him to go start what he was really called to, right? The whole time,

00:40:57hiding a secret that he didn't want anybody else to find out.

00:41:01Darrell Bock Absolutely. And think about watching a

00:41:05mystery movie. If you watch a really good mystery movie, they give you hints and clues

00:41:10along the way to string you along, and then suddenly the mystery unfolds. And before they have explained

00:41:18all of these things in the past, your brain has connected to it, because you already know those

00:41:23milestones, and you think you're brilliant. You think you're a wizard. You solved the mystery.

00:41:27Darrell Bock And you don't realize that they've led

00:41:29you – they've strung you along like this. Darrell Bock Yeah, they strung you along.

00:41:32Darrell Bock Well, this is a normal thing that happens in human beings. The brain is thinking

00:41:36subconsciously, even just simply reading. They're taking mental notes, and there's points at which

00:41:42the brain kind of combines those mental notes, and you start to form a thought, and that thought

00:41:48may not match exactly what you're reading at the time you're reading it. So you may read through the

00:41:52Bible, and you've been reading – you've been studying, I don't know, Zachariah or some other

00:41:58passage, and suddenly you're reading Revelation, and your brain makes that connection. Well, because

00:42:03everything's down to the spiritual level, people think, oh my gosh, God just spoke to me and revealed

00:42:09this scripture to me. And you talk about spinning off denominations. Well, what if the connection that

00:42:15you just made, which may or may not even be accurate, differs from the connection made by the other guy

00:42:20in the church? And both of those differ from the leader who has a different connection. Well,

00:42:25now you've got a leader who's wanting to fight against the two people. The two people want to

00:42:29break away and start their own group, and that's literally how all of this Pentecostal mess started

00:42:35to ebb and flow and split and divide. Darrell Bock Well, I've been in the religious world for 50

00:42:40years, and I can tell you I've got dozens of stories of guys who started churches, even in our world,

00:42:48because we didn't platform them. Right? It was just, I saw it over and over again. And part of the

00:42:56reason was that I have a sixth sense about things. And I could tell early on what was driving,

00:43:03what was motivating them. Right? And I was like, this is trouble. And so I would not put them on staff,

00:43:11which resulted in, there's a lot of churches in Kansas City from guys who I didn't put on staff.

00:43:17Right? One thing I was thinking about this, this whole issue of influence. You know, one of the

00:43:26things that preachers figured out is that people love to be told what they want to hear. The church

00:43:32world in my lifetime, in your lifetime, has gone from, it's, I exist to serve God,

00:43:43to God exists to serve me. I have watched this transition in the church world. And you can see

00:43:51it in the pulpits every Sunday morning, because what happens is, is that the preachers get up and

00:43:56they tell people what they want to hear. And it's all about, God wants to give you this, God wants to

00:44:02do that, God wants, right? And it's, and oh, by the way, it's all the things that I want. So one of the

00:44:07things that I, that I was very saddened by is I saw this creep into the prophetic, right? And I saw

00:44:17so many of these wannabe prophets standing up and telling people what they wanted to hear.

00:44:24And I used to sit there and, and because I can't explain it, but I get a physiological

00:44:29reaction to bullshit. Sorry, people. I know you don't like me to swear, but I don't know any other

00:44:37way to say it. It stunk really bad. And I could feel it. Right. And, and it, and it's just like

00:44:43gross. It's like, it's like, you want to go home and take a shower. You know, John Wimber used to have

00:44:48this phrase called slob and slimed. Right. It was like, like, I think he got it from Ghostbusters or

00:44:54something like that. I mean, this slime, right. And, and, and so much of the church world is just

00:44:59slimy, right? Because it's people who are driven by selfish ambition and greed, right? Seeking influence

00:45:08and in order to get it, they flatter people. And so that's how far things have sort of descended. And

00:45:16one of the reasons, funny enough, this is the paradox of all this, is that in thinking, by telling

00:45:25everybody what they want to hear, that they're going to gain more influence and grow the church, the church

00:45:31is actually shrunk. The American church is half of what it was when we were kids. You know, half the amount of

00:45:38people go to church anymore, right? So somehow the flattery isn't working for a lot of people, right? And the

00:45:45reason was, as I, as I've discovered is people may not all be prophets, but most everybody has some

00:45:53level of discernment. Like they have a little meter too, right? And it's just like, ew, right? It's

00:46:00like, um, I remember, you know, I loved honey. You know, you know, you put a little bit on your

00:46:06cereal, right? And so one day I was like, ah, I'm going to take a big tablespoon of it. So I put a big

00:46:10tablespoon of honey in my mouth. I almost gagged. It was like, it was overwhelming,

00:46:15right? And I think that's what flattery what's happened in the church, even in the prophetic

00:46:21world, right? It's just flattery, flattery, flattery, and it's systemic. And now once, and this

00:46:28is where I get really concerned because there's this entrenched system that has all these unspoken

00:46:36rules. And so anybody that's young and coming into the system now models themselves after all

00:46:45of this, right? That's why I said, I don't think we have prophetic. I think what we have

00:46:51is pathetic. And, and I know that's harsh, but I'm just trying to get people to understand

00:46:57that we've lost the real prophetic edge. We really lost it. And, and, and the driving

00:47:05force, the two driving forces behind it are ego and finances. I remember, this is a true

00:47:12story. I remember Paul Cain and I had this conversation because he, he preached something

00:47:18and I happened to have written it for him. And he did, there was a whole part of it, which

00:47:23was counting, you know, there was an accountability, like it was just, you know, bringing, like holding

00:47:30a plumb line up and he never talked about it. And so after the meeting, I went, Hey, you

00:47:36cut out a whole part of the sermon and he goes, well, if I said that, they'd never invite

00:47:41me back. He was just being honest about it. Right. And I was like, yeah, that's the way

00:47:48most of these itinerary guys are. If I said that, right. And that's what, you know, so

00:47:53it gets back to what you're talking about. It's this whole systemic thing that's become

00:47:57so entrenched now that I don't know how this gets put back on track. I mean, you

00:48:05know, typically, I mean, historically what ends up happening is there's a T-bone. I

00:48:12call it T-bone. Something unexpected comes out of nowhere that completely upsets the

00:48:19system. Right. As I wrote in my book, you take money out of the church world, the

00:48:26American church world, and you would have a completely different looking world that

00:48:31would all be based on authenticity and real relationships. Sort of what you have

00:48:36in China. There's a reason why the Chinese church is so massive, right? Because it's

00:48:43illegal, right? There's no money involved. So they have authentic relationships with

00:48:48people who guide them and guard them against a system. That's it, right? In some

00:48:56ways, that would be the healthiest thing that happened in the American church is

00:49:00something comes and opposes it.

00:49:03And without that opposition. So that's how we ended up in this place, to be honest.

00:49:07So if you go back to the beginning, if there were two or three prophets, not one, not one that

00:49:12could become authoritarian, two or three, and they prophesied, and then people judged their

00:49:17prophecies to see, are they true or false? Did this guy make it an up or not? Then you

00:49:22would be testing the prophecy. If you were to also test the spirits, then you would be

00:49:27testing to see, is this person really of God, or is this guy mentally insane? And

00:49:31there's some good questions there with Bob Jones of maybe not insane, but some of his

00:49:37mental stability, mental faculties may have been missing. But here's where it gets

00:49:42interesting. For everybody who's outside of all of this looking in, they say, how can you

00:49:47avoid passages like Deuteronomy 18, 20, I think, 21, I think it is. When a prophet speaks

00:49:54in the name of the Lord, and that word does not come to pass, that is not a word that God

00:50:00has spoken. That's a very obvious thing. If you say something –

00:50:02Darrell Bock Yeah, it's either it is or is it, right?

00:50:04Darrell Bock If you tell me something, and it doesn't happen like you said, well, obviously

00:50:09what you said was untrue. A normal human being thinks like this. Well, because everything was

00:50:15brought down to the spiritual level, you can have the spirit, you can have the spirit. If

00:50:20you have a conscience, it's a spirit. You can't test the spirits, because we're not

00:50:24going to test in this group. We're going to train people not to test it. Well, there's

00:50:29one aspect, which you just mentioned. Ironically, this is the third time. One aspect that alters

00:50:36the course of what is prophecy and it actually dumbs it down. If you really go back and study

00:50:43– and I've spent five years doing this. I'm fascinated with psychology and culture

00:50:49and history. If you go back and you study the prophecies that were being issued by these

00:50:56men, not just Branham, but there was multiple men doing this. But don't study just what they

00:51:02say is coming to pass. Study their audience. They're talking – Gordon Lindsay is talking

00:51:08to Christian identity people in Christian identity conferences. Branham is talking to

00:51:13people who are working with the Klan, also Christian identity people. They're speaking

00:51:18to Pentecostals who are not wanting change to happen. There's this fundamental rejection

00:51:23to change, especially modernization in that era. Maybe not now, but in that era. Most of the

00:51:29prophecies have to do with either A, people who were deeply affected by World War II and

00:51:36they remember those things and it's appealing to think through them. B, opposition to change

00:51:42in the prophecy. They don't want this change to happen. We don't like this change. It's

00:51:46too modern for us. C, just simply things that they want to hear that are related to doctrines

00:51:52that they have taught them to believe. Well, if you teach people in a certain way as it relates

00:51:59to Scripture and then have a prophecy in that direction that you've trained them, everybody's

00:52:04going to accept it, right?

00:52:05Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:52:06C, and because you're telling them prophecies that they want to hear, they're not going

00:52:11to test it. That was one of the strategies that was employed here. And I look back – obviously,

00:52:17I've not studied every prophecy, but I've gone a lot through what Paul Cain was doing,

00:52:22some of what Bob Jones was doing. I've went right down the line with these guys. Bickle,

00:52:26I've talked through Jad. Many of the prophecies, they were either things that people wanted

00:52:31to hear or they were directly tied to doctrines that they – they had planted breadcrumbs,

00:52:36much like that movie mystery that I'm talking about where you give all the seeds that are

00:52:41taking you right down that path. Well, they strung them along and then gave the prophecy

00:52:45down the path that they had strung them. And so you're giving them prophecies that they

00:52:49want to hear. And in the end, what happens is people aren't going to test this. They don't

00:52:54care to test it. They believe it. Whether it comes true or not, they're going to believe it.

00:52:58I think there's great wisdom in that biblical verse, and here's why, here's where my brain

00:53:04goes with this. God put into the DNA of life a principle, and the principle is resistance builds

00:53:13strength. It's woven into everything in life, right? Whether, you know, if you work out,

00:53:20right, the reason you're working out is you are fighting resistance, you know? That's what

00:53:27builds you up. If you go back and you study people's stories, right? People that have come

00:53:35from really difficult childhoods. It's about what they overcame, right? Life was resisting

00:53:43them. Culture was resisting them. Things were against them, and they got stronger because

00:53:50they overcame it. I think because of the fact that we do not hold people accountable,

00:53:58to your point, and we do not judge, and we do not resist, what we have is pathetic. It's

00:54:06weak. It's anemic, right? It's a giant jellyfish, right? It has no backbone. And that's one of the

00:54:16reasons why the church world has lost its influence, right? It's just, sorry, but it's weak. And so,

00:54:28what's even more embarrassing to me, and again, this is so cliche-ish, but what we really have is

00:54:34instead of emperors without clothes, we've got prophets without clothes. It's like this is

00:54:41embarrassing. What's sad, though, is because it's a system, right? And people are taught where to look,

00:54:48what to see, and how to interpret it. There's a whole group of people out there who are told,

00:54:53oh, the prophets got clothes. So, they all see clothes, right? And it's like,

00:54:58oh, that little innocent one, he's naked.

00:55:01Yeah.

00:55:04And you see, I see this all the time in the church world. That's why they all come to me

00:55:09behind the scenes, because they're in these situations, like everybody's going, oh, my God,

00:55:14oh, my God, right? And they're like, yeah, but this doesn't seem real to me. Like, this is not

00:55:18authentic. And you're like, yeah, yeah. And the reason is, is because you've not been inundated,

00:55:24saturated, manipulated, brainwashed by the system. And that's, that's what people I don't think

00:55:32understand. Something, again, and I know we got to wrap this up, but I learned something a long time

00:55:40ago. When you're in a discussion with somebody, and there's two different points of view, and you're

00:55:47trying to convince them to see things like you see it, and they start to get emotive, right? You'll

00:55:55see this happen, right? It's like you're having this discussion about the facts. And then things

00:56:01start getting a little bit more, it starts escalating up, right? And then you get to a point where if

00:56:08it really goes off the rails, people go ad honinem, meaning that they don't, no longer talk about the

00:56:15facts, they attack you personally, your character, you're an idiot, you, right, whatever. I was always,

00:56:22you know, I'm so logical, it's like, oh, I don't understand, like, it's like, what happened to the

00:56:27facts here, right? What I didn't understand is that we all grow up in these little subcultures,

00:56:34in these little systems, whether it's your family, your friends, your peers, you know, your ethnicity,

00:56:42right? You have a subculture, that subculture has a worldview, it has a system. The only way

00:56:49that you can maintain your relationships in the system is to conform. When you start trying to

00:57:00convince people to think differently, what you don't realize is you're actually creating fear,

00:57:05like, absolute paranoia. Because the implications are, if you're right, and I think like you,

00:57:14I'm going to lose my whole world. And so this whole thing degenerates into this emotional thing.

00:57:20And I think we have to be a little bit more sensitive about what you're dealing with with

00:57:26people. It's really strong in the church world. I mean, the church world is, as we've talked about

00:57:33many times, almost cultic, right? In their loyalties and their worldviews. And it's, and I mean,

00:57:39if you look back historically, there's probably more humans that have died in the name of God

00:57:45and defending a theology or a worldview than probably most world wars. I mean, it's unbelievable how far

00:57:54people will go, right? To defend the religious system. So you're, you're, when you're going down

00:58:02a road here that has huge implications, right? Because what's at stake is, is, is, is a lot for

00:58:10most people. You know, I have, there's a book out there. This is just, again, a sidebar, if you guys

00:58:16want to check it out. There's a book out there called Born to Rebel. And the guy, the whole theory is

00:58:22basically birth order. And what he talks, he goes all through history. And there's always in every

00:58:29family, the black sheep, right? It's that one rebellious sibling or child. It usually doesn't

00:58:37happen unless you have three or more, three or more kids. Well, history has been changed by the black

00:58:45sheeps. It's the rebellious ones who have ended up being the innovators. And so the system mitigates

00:58:55and does everything it can to cause you to conform. But it's weakness, right? It perpetuates all the

00:59:05flaw, everything, right? So it takes somebody that's a bit obstinate and rebellious, right? So this is one

00:59:12of the paradoxes I found in Christianity, right? Because we're all taught that we need to submit

00:59:16and obey. Good people obey. History, though, is, is driven by those that rebel.

00:59:24Well, I knew you would have an opinion. I wanted to talk to you.

00:59:27I have a perspective.

00:59:28You have a perspective. We both have a perspective. Interestingly, they both seem to match, which is

00:59:33unusual.

00:59:34Well, it is fascinating because you and I, like I said, we start from very different places,

00:59:38but we tend to end up always in the same place.

00:59:41Yeah, we do. We're like the family circus where Billy's going all kinds of different directions

00:59:46and he finally ends there.

00:59:48Well, hopefully people will find it helpful because I think, you know, based on reading

00:59:51some of the comments, you know, I think a lot of people identify with our journeys and like,

00:59:56yeah, yeah, I see that too. You know, that's been my journey. Painful, but, you know, I'm grateful

01:00:01for what I understand now.

01:00:03Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for doing this.

01:00:06All righty, buddy.

01:00:08Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out

01:00:10on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic

01:00:16Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. And for

01:00:21more about Mike Bickle and IHOPKC, you can read Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades

01:00:26of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.

01:00:36familiar of the New Apostolic Reformation, the National House of

KCF: The Prophetic Movement That Shaped the NAR | Bob Scott | 515

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