- 13 minutes ago
John invites Chuck Davis to share his firsthand experience growing up in and eventually leaving Faith Assembly, a faith-healing movement shaped by strict doctrine, spiritual authority, and deep emotional bonds. Chuck reflects on his early religious upbringing, his introduction to charismatic faith, and how promises of healing, certainty, and belonging gradually turned into systems of control that affected education, relationships, and personal identity.
Together, John and Chuck discuss music as emotional influence, fear-based faith, spiritualized mental health struggles, and the long-term psychological impact of authoritarian religious environments. The conversation also explores what healing can look like after leaving, including counseling, rebuilding trust, and finding healthy community outside high-control religious systems.
CHAPTER LIST
00:00 Introduction and meeting Chuck Davis
06:00 Early church life and the pull of faith teaching
12:00 Entering Faith Assembly and early experiences
18:00 Faith healing, authority, and personal cost
24:00 Control, conformity, and life inside the group
30:00 Leaving Faith Assembly and the aftermath
36:00 Mental health, deliverance beliefs, and recovery
42:00 Rebuilding life, faith, and healthy community
48:00 Advice for those leaving high-control churches
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Together, John and Chuck discuss music as emotional influence, fear-based faith, spiritualized mental health struggles, and the long-term psychological impact of authoritarian religious environments. The conversation also explores what healing can look like after leaving, including counseling, rebuilding trust, and finding healthy community outside high-control religious systems.
CHAPTER LIST
00:00 Introduction and meeting Chuck Davis
06:00 Early church life and the pull of faith teaching
12:00 Entering Faith Assembly and early experiences
18:00 Faith healing, authority, and personal cost
24:00 Control, conformity, and life inside the group
30:00 Leaving Faith Assembly and the aftermath
36:00 Mental health, deliverance beliefs, and recovery
42:00 Rebuilding life, faith, and healthy community
48:00 Advice for those leaving high-control churches
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Chuck Davis, former member of Faith Assembly.
00:47Chuck, it's good to have you on and to have you share your story about your experiences in Faith Assembly.
00:53And I feel like we know each other, only we've just met today, so it feels funny.
00:58But we have this unusual bond, because I grew up in this faith healing, divine healing cult, and you did
01:05too.
01:05And although they were different leaders, there were so many similarities that we just, you know, we connected pretty well.
01:12And you connected with Chinno, and he's excited to hear this.
01:15So he's probably going to push that I get this out as fast as I can.
01:19So anyway, good to have you on.
01:21Maybe if you could start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:24Sure, John, and thank you for having me on.
01:28And yeah, I heard from Chinno already this morning, wishing me well in the podcast.
01:37I probably should start with a little bit of background information.
01:40I think context is so important, whether we're looking at Scripture or people's experiences within the church.
01:48I'm from a little college town in Salem, West Virginia, north central part of the state.
01:53Interestingly enough, it was headquarters for a denomination called Seventh-day Baptist.
02:00And so as a kid, I grew up, people mowed their yards on Saturdays and Sundays, and I didn't think
02:06a thing about it.
02:07But it's been interesting with hindsight, seeing what I've observed growing up in the EUB, Evangelical United Brethren Church.
02:17My grandparents raised me because my mom, she won't mind, got pregnant in high school.
02:24And they crossed over into Maryland and got married.
02:27And anyway, my father was an alcoholic, and that didn't last very long.
02:32And the reason I'm telling you this part of the story is because once I got under the faith teaching
02:37and claim promises, you'll see what happened.
02:40So anyway, my granddad was a barber in a small town.
02:45Everybody loved him.
02:47He and my grandmother were just the greatest role models as far as living out, you know, everyday practical Christian
02:54faith.
02:55They weren't overly religious.
02:57We prayed over our evening meals.
02:59My grandma read the daily bread devotional every day.
03:03But that was about it, you know.
03:05They were involved in the local church.
03:07And so then when I was about 14 years old, some of my peers had already gone forward in one
03:13of those revival services that you're familiar with.
03:16And they were after me to, you know, give my heart to Jesus.
03:20And would you rather have a lot of gold or go to heaven?
03:23And I thought, that's a dumb question.
03:26Anyway, I remember as clear as day, oh, by the way, our little house there in that little town was
03:33between the creek and the railroad tracks.
03:36And my grandmother was always keeping an eye on all of us grandkids for the railroad tracks and the creek.
03:43And anyway, spent a lot of time on that creek bank with my BB gun.
03:47You know, it's funny.
03:48I grew up in the same way.
03:50I am a tech nerd.
03:51I'm a person who is not a wilderness man by no means.
03:55But we were raised in that mindset where, you know, you're mimicking the central figure.
04:00So I, too, had a BB gun.
04:01Later, I had a rifle.
04:02Later, I went hunting.
04:03And I did all of these things that, you know, had I had my life to do over with, I
04:07would have never done in the first place because I'm not a hunter.
04:10Sure.
04:10But that's the way I grew up.
04:12And I can relate to a lot of what you're saying.
04:15Oh, yeah, yeah.
04:15I mean, you know, it's just amazing, again, with hindsight, how much, you know, our culture influences and affects us.
04:22So I was walking.
04:25Thank you for that insert because now I'm back on track.
04:29My granddad and I were walking the railroad tracks to church.
04:33And we were talking about what's it mean to become born again, to be a Christian.
04:38And he said, now, Chuck, he said, it has to be your decision.
04:42Don't let peer pressure, you know, influence you.
04:46It's something you have to decide.
04:48So that night, I decided, oh, and by this time, our little EUB church had merged with the Methodists, I
04:56believe, 1968.
04:57And I saw, even as a preteen, the trouble that caused with the big denomination swallowing up our little church
05:07and sending, quote-unquote, liberal ministers from the seminary that we did not appreciate.
05:12Anyway, they finally sent us a good conservative evangelical.
05:17But anyway, that night when I went forward, I thought, you know, is that big curtain up there with the
05:23picture of Jesus, is that going to split?
05:25Am I going to see the Holy of Holies?
05:27I didn't know what to expect.
05:28And, of course, I didn't feel anything.
05:31But I think even at that time, the minister said, well, this is something, you know, you just have to
05:35take by faith.
05:37And I'm like, okay, everybody congratulated me.
05:39So trying to fast forward, the other transitions I saw in our little church was when some of our youth
05:49and our youth fellowship leader received the charismatic experience.
05:53And that caused a lot of turmoil, as in many churches.
05:57But I thought I saw it as a positive thing, especially among our youth leader, who was always late.
06:04She never was late anymore.
06:05It just seemed like, oh, and then she was leading kids to Jesus in the Sunday school class.
06:11And the more Methodist minister at the time did not appreciate that.
06:14You don't get saved in Sunday school.
06:16You wait for worship service to come forward.
06:18No, they don't.
06:19They want to be the Moses that led God's people out or whatever it is that's going through their head.
06:24Now, you were, unlike some of the youth who were born and raised in Hobart Freeman's sect who could not
06:31go to college, get an education, you were one that went to college before, correct?
06:36What was that like for you?
06:37It was a small American Baptist-affiliated school called Alderson Broadus.
06:43It was Alderson's the town in southern West Virginia where Martha Stewart ended up spending jail time.
06:49But anyway, little college.
06:51They were, I think, maybe the first in the nation to have the physician assistant program.
06:55I was there as a chemistry and math major.
06:58Almost became engaged to a Baptist missionary's daughter.
07:03Her mom and dad were teachers over in what was Zaire at that time, Africa.
07:08But anyway, and that kind of dovetails into my story of Faith Assembly Church in Lafayette.
07:17So, but you know, John, I was very, as a young person, 19 years old, I was just very, not
07:28really disillusioned, but lacking direction.
07:30That's the best term, lacking direction.
07:32So my prayer at that time was, God, show me your will for my life.
07:36Well, there was a young man by the name of Victor Felix from Puerto Rico who just seemed to exude
07:43joy and love and, you know, give you the shirt off his back.
07:47And I thought, man, I want to, you know, have some of what he's got.
07:52Sounds harmless enough.
07:55So this school required an off-campus job experience in your related field of study.
08:00And so my mother had remarried and moved to Kokomo, Indiana.
08:04And I thought, well, this would be a good time to spend the summer with her and my siblings and
08:08stepdad.
08:09And so I sent out applications to Indianapolis, Lafayette, all over the place for a job related to chemistry.
08:18So you're right at that age where you're trying to get your footing, you're trying to find your pathway in
08:22life, putting out the job applications.
08:24Which job am I going to get all of the unknowns?
08:27Usually, usually that's the prime target for one of these groups to recruit people into their into their body of,
08:35you know, whether it's a cult or not.
08:37I'm guessing that's whenever this guy reached out to you and you started coming to church.
08:41And while I, well, actually, it was the first Monday night that I came home from work, June 6, 1977,
08:52eons ago.
08:54And I was renting a room from a little old lady who had two houses and rented out bedrooms to
09:00students.
09:00Again, it's those aren't there anymore on Chauncey Hill.
09:03It's probably a parking garage.
09:06But as I was sitting down at her little kitchen table to eat, this fellow came by with a Bible.
09:11I said, where are you going?
09:11He goes, to church.
09:13I said, a Monday night?
09:14He goes, yeah.
09:15And I said, can I go with you?
09:16Because by this time, I thought my Sunday school teacher who had received the charismatic experience was teaching us.
09:23If we wanted to know God's will, it would be through his word.
09:25So I wanted to study the word of God.
09:27He goes, well, you're welcome, he said.
09:29But we get, you know, we get kind of wild in our worship.
09:32And I said, that's okay, I got a Pentecostal uncle in Kokomo, Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee.
09:38And, you know, I've seen some strange happenings up there.
09:44So I went with him to our Overcomer's Assembly above that little bookstore.
09:52I forget, 2nd, 3rd Street, something like that.
09:55But we would go upstairs, and about 200, 250, 300 sometimes, mostly Purdue students.
10:03And Bruce Kinsey taught that first Monday night.
10:06And I still have a copy of my handwritten notes from that night.
10:11Classic message of what faith is, Hebrews 11.1.
10:15And all of the promises of God, yes and amen.
10:19And I thought, well, this is pretty cool.
10:21And, of course, before that, Rich was the brother's name.
10:25He played piano for the worship service, and he had me sitting right up front between these ladies with their
10:30dresses and doilies and tambourines.
10:33I thought it was pretty cool when, of course, it was scripture after scripture after scripture on, you know, promises
10:39and faith.
10:40And so I went home that evening with Rich, and we both sat back down at that table, and he
10:47said, so, you want the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
10:50And I said, yeah, I think I do.
10:51I think I do.
10:52And so we held hands.
10:54He prayed a prayer and encouraged me to speak in tongues.
10:58And I, to this day, I'm just telling you my experience.
11:02I'm not trying to say it was God or not God, but I felt that tingling coming up my arm.
11:08And all of a sudden, it took encouraging, but I started, you know, speaking in what I thought was an
11:14unknown tongue.
11:16And I thought, wow, okay.
11:18So I just went, we both went back to our separate bedrooms, and I just kept praying in the Spirit
11:23as the saying goes.
11:24And eventually, to come full circle, I saw where Bruce had said one of those promises was household salvation.
11:35Of course, you know, he wrote a book about it, and that's a whole other story that Chinna has gone
11:39into.
11:41But I thought, you know, Lord, and I didn't have the, you better pray specifically.
11:46I just prayed a general prayer.
11:48If there's anybody in my family not saved, would you save them?
11:52That was June, 1977.
11:53I went home for the 4th of July weekend, and my granddad said, Chuck, your dad, my biological dad, called
12:02from the VA hospital.
12:03He wants to get off the bottle and reconnect with you.
12:06And I was like, praise God, this thing works.
12:10This message works.
12:12And again, with hindsight, was that God?
12:15I hope so, but I'm not going to insist, you know what I mean?
12:18I just, and I also think I've come to the point where even in the midst of a cult, he
12:25can still move among his people.
12:27What do you think?
12:28I'm of the same opinion.
12:29There are things that have happened that I just simply can't explain, and some of those, you want to believe
12:35it's God.
12:36Maybe it's not.
12:37Maybe it's coincidence.
12:37But I'm also of the opinion that there aren't a whole lot of coincidences.
12:41There are things.
12:43There's a greater power that is in control.
12:45So if you're believing this, then yes, you can believe that.
12:48But I, too, I look back at some of the experiences that I had, and the cult, like it or
12:54not, it was destructive.
12:55It was dangerous in many ways.
12:58I still have mental health issues from it.
13:01And yet, at the same time, it molded and shaped who I am today.
13:04I would not be the person that I am today.
13:06So some good, some bad.
13:07I just accept the good, and I try to work through the bad with my therapist.
13:12Amen.
13:13Yes.
13:13Amen.
13:15I love what my favorite therapist said when Debbie and I, we've been to a handful in marriage counseling and
13:22other types of counseling,
13:23but my favorite fellow is a name here in Indianapolis called Wayne Pribble.
13:28And at the time, Debbie still felt a lot of her health needs were spiritual demonic oppression.
13:34And this Wayne Pribble, he's retired in New Mexico now, he had been involved in some of the Melody Land
13:41charismatic stuff,
13:42so he was somewhat familiar with our background.
13:44And he said, Chuck, you know what?
13:47He said, because I told him, I said, Debbie, you think she needs exorcism deliverance.
13:50And he said, you know what, Chuck?
13:52He said, I can work with her in that paradigm.
13:56And that was a new word to me, paradigm.
13:59You know, a person's belief system.
14:01And, of course, my first thought was, brother, you better watch out.
14:04You know what happened to those people that tried to cast out demons?
14:07And I said, no, Jesus, I thought, you better tread lightly.
14:12But that was a light bulb moment for me, a revelation.
14:14And I just, you know, I thought, wow, this guy is so, I mean, why be bothered so much with
14:23theological doctrine?
14:26And something Freeman used to say was, what was it, something about, if you experience firsthand a demoniac, you know,
14:35it'll change your theology.
14:37Yeah.
14:38So, you know, after going back to school and finishing my degree, which, again, part of the call was discouraging
14:49college degrees.
14:51Lafayette was somewhat of an exception because Debbie actually made me a list.
14:54I haven't shown it at Cheno yet.
14:55I think she came up with maybe 20 young men because women particularly left their education to have babies and
15:04work at home and submit to their husbands.
15:06But, no, Debbie came up with a list of 20 young men who finished their degree at Purdue, became engineers
15:15and other types of work.
15:16They ended up being the ones who would support the rest of us who were barely getting along and couldn't
15:22buy groceries or pay bills.
15:26So, that was a little difference, a little bit of a difference there in Lafayette.
15:30Yeah, that's what I've been told.
15:32One of the things you mentioned, I want to pause here and emphasize, you're talking about marriage counseling.
15:36And I think that's so important for people who have been in these types of groups and they finally get
15:42out because not everybody can go through it together and remain together in the same way that they were from
15:49before.
15:49And with good reason, which, you know, it's another discussion for another day, but your personality has been hijacked.
15:56And so, the person that you're married to might not actually be the person that you are married to after
16:01leaving the cult because the personalities change just a bit.
16:05And I think it's critically important if you start to sense that there is that tension or that difference, get
16:10marriage counseling and it can help improve your life in many ways.
16:14Just to throw this in, during our counseling, Debbie and I did the old Myers-Briggs personality test and she
16:21was an ESTJ, you know, extrovert, logic, judgment, whatever.
16:27I was totally the opposite, INFP, feeling intuitive.
16:31And so, when we came across the Christian book, the title was, When Opposites Attract, and Attract was X'd out
16:41in red like blood, and it said, When Opposites Attack.
16:45So, oh my, we've had fun along the way.
16:49I mean, it's not always been, you know, roses, but…
16:53Darrell Bock I had to do one of those tests for a client.
16:56I've mentioned this, I think, on the podcast, but afterwards, I don't know what the person's role was on staff.
17:03They called me and they said, John, do you realize that your empathy is off the charts?
17:08They said, you will literally kill yourself to help another person, and you've got to be careful with this, man.
17:14And I'm like, well, yeah, that's me, pretty much.
17:17One of the things that I've learned, and I learned this from Dr. Stephen Hasson working with him,
17:21you can take the test when you're in the cult, and you get your personality types.
17:26You can take the test after the cult, and you may even shift an entire category.
17:31You can take it again after you've deprogrammed, and you may shift to a new category altogether.
17:37So, as you're going through this, the cult has impacted your personality that much
17:41that you're not even the same person after you leave and escape.
17:44Yes, that is so true.
17:45And with Debbie and I, after being married over 40 years, well, even before that, maybe
17:5125 or 30, I don't know, you rub off on each other, too.
17:54And we both kind of came back toward the middle, if there is such a thing.
18:00But, yeah.
18:02So, anyway, after that experience of reuniting with my dad, who, by the way, remarried, had
18:12two more kids, I met my dad's side of the family for the first time.
18:17They were very physically affectionate and hugs, and I just really appreciated them.
18:22I'm still in touch with them.
18:24My dad passed away, and this is one of those ironies.
18:27Even though he was, quote-unquote, delivered, and he gave God the credit.
18:32Oh, a big help for him overcoming alcoholism was, and again, not that the denomination
18:40matters, in some ways it does, but he married a free will Baptist woman, a free will Baptist.
18:46He became an elder in the church, but she really took good care of him.
18:51But the irony is, he gave up alcohol.
18:53He never gave up his cigarettes, and he died in his mid-50s of lung cancer with two small
18:59children, and, you know, it was just a shame that it happened the way it did, but it's
19:05one of those ironies that I don't even try to figure out or explain or let it bother me.
19:10Yeah, I've thought about that quite a bit.
19:12This whole faith healing thing, it's really like a rabbit's foot type God type religion,
19:18because you rub the rabbit's foot a little bit, you get healed, and then you're scared
19:22of the next thing that's going to come, because that's the devil, and it's coming to attack
19:25you, and sure enough, you're going to get the next thing, and the next thing might
19:29actually kill you, and then those who die whenever they're in this movement, they've
19:34just kind of forgotten that that didn't work in that case, but it's going to work
19:38in my case, you know what I mean?
19:39So anyway, I came back, finished the summer at Great Lakes as a lab tech, made some
19:47great friends.
19:49I had loved going out to eat after church.
19:52You know, we had our Sunday morning meetings with a local farmer who had more of a
19:56pastor's heart than, I think, maybe even Bruce Kinsey on Monday night.
20:00Bill Fouts was a local farmer, and he had a good heart.
20:05And then Bruce on Monday nights, and then Friday nights, Dave Hardy, who ended up staying
20:12in the apartment that I stayed in with what would have become my brother-in-law, Hal West.
20:21And when things weren't going too well for me after leaving the cult, sometimes I was
20:29kidding, sometimes I was serious, I blamed it to my brother-in-law.
20:32I said, why did you hook me into this cult?
20:36Because I went back to college in West Virginia, and Hal and a buddy of his, they visited me,
20:42and you know what, I was thinking about this this morning, so many of us are, and maybe
20:49more so in our younger years, but if you're not getting that love, kindness, and affection
20:55in your own family, you're looking for it elsewhere.
20:57And I think a lot of people that get caught up in cults, whether it's Mormonism, Brannonism,
21:02Freemanism, whatever, you know, you're looking to be accepted, to be included, and in our
21:07case, to be elite.
21:09I can admit that now.
21:11Well, you know, and for me, that's one of the really sad things, because exactly what
21:14you said, you're always seeking affection, people who like you, people who treat you
21:20like family, and when you're love-bombed into a cult, that's the feeling you get, but once
21:25you get inside, it changes over time, and you start to feel less and less of this, especially
21:31in the more destructive groups, because they're, I hate to use the word spying, but it's like
21:36the preacher preaches this doctrine of all of the things that you should never do.
21:41And you got everybody watching.
21:42Are you doing the things that he says you're not doing?
21:45And then they talk about it, or they scold you, and it just doesn't feel like family.
21:49There's no real connection there.
21:51And like you said, people are seeking that connection.
21:54Well, then the cycle happens, because when you're seeking the connection, that's whenever
21:59the cults can prey on you.
22:00So you get sucked inside, and then this vicious cycle keeps happening.
22:05And the sad part about it is, the people that it's happening to, they're usually really,
22:10really good people.
22:11Good people.
22:12Good-hearted people.
22:13And I've heard Chenna say the same thing.
22:15You know, we were very sincere.
22:16We were just sincerely wrong.
22:19But we would go out to eat afterwards.
22:21And again, with hindsight, I think I spent more money on eating out food than I put in the
22:26little offering box at the back of the church.
22:30So Dave Hardy, back to Dave, a good guy.
22:35You know, I would get anonymous.
22:36We always try to do things anonymously, but I would get envelopes with my name left in the
22:43mailbox.
22:44Coincidentally, right after he went back to Faith Assembly up north with a $20, you know,
22:50or $30, or he was leaving me a little bit of money, because I would actually fix him
22:55breakfast on Friday or Saturday mornings before we drove down to New Albany for a house church
23:01there.
23:03And he said two things to me that stuck with me.
23:06First of all, can you not scramble these eggs quite so long?
23:10They're a little dry.
23:13And then the other thing was going down to New Albany, I was playing guitar and leading
23:18songs.
23:19And he said, Chuck, I don't want to be the Holy Spirit in your life, but could you please
23:24ramp it up and play a little faster song before I get up to sleep?
23:27Yeah, sleep.
23:28Up to speak.
23:29He said, you're putting the people to sleep with these slow worship songs.
23:34Whenever I first – I moved around from different church to church in Arco.
23:38When I moved back here, my grandfather, he was so strongly against the fast songs.
23:44And, man, I just came from the south.
23:46I was listening to music down in Georgia.
23:48Everybody's stomping their feet and clapping their hands like a hoedown.
23:50And I come here, and some guy wasn't aware that it was against church policy to clap
23:55your hands.
23:56And my grandfather stood up.
23:58You could see the anger in his face that some guy in the crowd has clapped his hands
24:02and told – we were singing I'll Fly Away.
24:05So if you can picture this, he brought the speed down to where the song probably lasted
24:1015 minutes.
24:11We were singing it that slow.
24:13And it was painful.
24:15And that's the level of control that these people have over the people.
24:19Oh, yeah.
24:20And I'm sure you've heard it.
24:22At some point at Faith Assembly, Dr. Freeman felt that minor chords were not good.
24:27Yes.
24:27We had to avoid the minor chords.
24:29So, yeah, every little tiny thing, you know, it was – oh, my goodness.
24:35I'm trying to picture somebody who, you know, they're off the street.
24:39There's this church on the corner.
24:40I want to go visit.
24:41They walk into Faith Assembly and hear a whole sermon against minor chords.
24:44I mean, it like screams, we are a cult.
24:48You know, at one time my grandparents were concerned that I wasn't a cult because they
24:53were reading some of the newspaper articles of what was going on at Faith Assembly.
24:56And let me quickly insert, if I can get myself back on track after inserting it, as Debbie
25:02and I have learned more about things that went on in our Lafayette Assembly, it breaks
25:08our heart because we were not aware of it while we were in there.
25:12It was kept hidden.
25:13It was swept under the rug.
25:16And it just breaks my heart to hear the pain and death, not often, but once is too much,
25:24you know, especially when it involves children.
25:26And it just broke my heart.
25:28But my grandparents came up to visit Lafayette Assembly, and I'm not sure if it was Bruce
25:33that night or who was teaching, but they were, my grandma told me later after the meeting,
25:39she said, Chuck, I was looking around and saw all these, you know, babies in their car seats
25:45in the aisles and whatnot and all the exuberant praise and clapping and worship.
25:50And she said, I just thought to myself, this reminds me of being at a basketball game.
25:55And she said, no longer had I thought that till one of the ladies in your church spoke
26:02up and said, thus saith the Lord, I am well pleased with your praise.
26:06Do not people of the world cheer and clap at sporting events?
26:10And my grandma said, I'm glad I wasn't thinking anything bad about your church.
26:17You know, I've mentioned this too, the part of my coming out of this was I went down to
26:23one of the churches down in Georgia, and I was there in the auditorium, and I had a son
26:29who just couldn't sit for those two-hour services, you know, and so I carry him downstairs.
26:34This particular church had a men's room where you could, the men could take their children
26:38down there, which was unusual.
26:40And I get down there, I'd never been down there, and I go down, there's this nice leather
26:44recliner and leather couch and Legos everywhere and a big flat screen TV on the wall.
26:50And I'm, this is pretty nice.
26:51So I let the kid play and I'm, I'm kicked back, you know, watching the TV with my hands
26:55propped behind my head.
26:56And suddenly the thought hit me, this really looks like a bunch of a stage act that
27:01everybody's hyped up in this emotion and the preacher's trying to play on their emotions.
27:06That thought went through my head and I was still in the cold and it wasn't long until
27:10I snapped out of it.
27:11And I'm like, this is just wrong.
27:13Oh, no, absolutely.
27:15Yeah.
27:16Because as I've heard you talk on your podcast, that music has such a powerful effect.
27:22So since we're talking a little bit about music, I'll go on another side story tangent.
27:29When I was in junior high and high school, I took a little guitar lesson and my granddad,
27:34bless his heart, a barber.
27:37I'm probably thinking now that as good a man as he was, he may not have reported all his
27:43cash income for taxes, but he's always saved up enough to take my grandma on vacation and
27:49they would let me tag along.
27:51But after my guitar lessons, I was asked to join a little garage band, actually by the Baptist preacher's son.
28:00And my granddad, bless his heart, he took me to the music store and he ended up helping me buy
28:08a nice Gibson SG Cherrywood finish,
28:13cash, unbucking pickups.
28:15And I mean, it was a sweet guitar.
28:17And then through the newspaper, we found a fellow selling a twin reverb amp pad and a custom built speaker
28:23cabinet.
28:24And we went, you know, and he paid cash for everything.
28:28In fact, my stepdad recently said, yeah, your granddad would pull a wallet out of his left pocket with fives
28:33and ones
28:34and another wallet out of his right pocket with twenties and fifties and another, like a third wallet with hundreds.
28:42It's like, I don't carry that kind of cash on me these days.
28:45But anyway, cash was king back then.
28:49And I'll interrupt you right here.
28:50It's funny because I know people in the Branham cult that was like this.
28:55When you're in this conspiracy theory mindset where you think the world is ending, the government's going to crack down
29:00against the cults.
29:01We have this thing against the government, right?
29:03And it's widespread, not just Branhamites, not just Hobart Freeman.
29:07It's widespread.
29:08And they will purposefully evade their taxes because they don't want to fund the government.
29:12That's the way this works.
29:14I'm not going to mention names, but I have family members that do the same thing.
29:18Oh, yeah.
29:19And, you know, I even remember when I first came to Lafayette, and I can't remember now if it was
29:27before or after getting into the cult,
29:29but I didn't want to use an ATM machine.
29:33I was afraid of electronics and technology.
29:36Of course, now I love and embrace it all.
29:39Of course, we all have a little concern maybe about AI.
29:42But back to the guitar story, Debbie's going to laugh when she hears this.
29:49She knows the story.
29:51I had a crush on one of the gals in the church in the cult.
29:57And I won't mention names either.
29:59People from that church will know exactly who I'm talking about.
30:03But short, cute little gal, and she was believing God for an acoustic guitar.
30:08And I decided I was going to trade in my 74 Gibson SG for an acoustic guitar for her.
30:16And I regret it today, but I did.
30:18And I gave it to her anonymously.
30:21You know, I made sure, you know, she got it without any connections back to me.
30:24And she ended up marrying a brother from Canada, a tall, handsome fellow, you know,
30:30and rode off into the sunset.
30:32Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started
30:35or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
30:41charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
30:45You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
30:50william-branham.org.
30:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
30:58Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
31:02with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:06You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:13If you want to contribute to the cause,
31:15you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
31:20And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version
31:24that you're listening to or watching.
31:26On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,
31:29we want to thank you for your support.
31:31You know, you're talking about the guitar,
31:33and it made me think back to my years.
31:35I was probably, gosh, I was probably 14, 15 in the cult when it began.
31:41My grandfather gave me my first guitar,
31:44and I learned to play it just almost instantly.
31:47That night, I was playing I'll Fly Away on it.
31:49And as I grew older, it got to be a game.
31:52I would go into a music store,
31:54and I would just pick up a random instrument that I'd never touched before,
31:57and I would see how long would it take me to learn how to play this.
32:00And I'd sit there and pick on it until,
32:02usually by the time I left the store,
32:04or I was playing whatever instrument I picked up and got to be quite a bit of fun.
32:10Well, a little bit later, probably, it might have been 15.
32:14I built this contraption.
32:16My friends called it the Collins Wire,
32:18but basically I had gone to a yard sale,
32:20and I bought a bunch of old junk.
32:23I bought two old tape decks, telephone, a few other things,
32:27and I took them all apart,
32:28and I made this thing that was my recording studio.
32:31And so I'd record into one.
32:33I would play an instrument and sing.
32:36Then I think it had to go the opposite direction,
32:38so I'd record into the other one while the first one was playing,
32:41and I would add another instrument and another voice.
32:44And in the end, I had a four-part harmony, full band,
32:47and I was giving these recordings out.
32:49And, you know, most of the churches I went to,
32:52I usually had a couple in my pocket.
32:53Well, the adults were just, you know, loving it.
32:57They liked the music, although I listened to it recently.
33:00It's not that good.
33:02But if you're in the Pentecostal religion and you can play and sing,
33:05somebody's going to listen to it.
33:06That's usually the way it works.
33:08And I'll never forget this girl walked up,
33:11and she said, Can I have one, too?
33:14And my heart grew so big, and nothing happened from it.
33:17But you get that, you know, you get that entertainer connection.
33:20Oh, boy, I can impress the girls, right?
33:23Nothing ever happened, so it didn't impress her that much, apparently.
33:27And, again, the music wasn't that great.
33:29But years later, I had people in South America who came to me,
33:34and they were bringing – one guy brought the actual cassette tape
33:38that he had gotten years ago from somebody else,
33:40and he said, I've heard you, John.
33:43You play this music.
33:44I've listened to your songs all the time.
33:46And I'm like, Wow, I had no idea.
33:48And I'm in other countries.
33:49I'm famous, right?
33:50And then after I left the cult, it was kind of funny
33:54because this guy walked up, and he says, I've got your music.
33:58And I said, Wow, you do?
33:59And this was a guy who's still in the cult.
34:02And I thought, Well, that's a good way to begin a conversation.
34:06Now we've got something in common.
34:07And he says, I don't agree with a single thing you're doing.
34:11And I'm like, Uh-oh.
34:12At that point, I had fully exposed Branham as a false prophet,
34:17all the prophecies that have failed, all of the doctrines, where they came from,
34:22some of the clan information.
34:24At this point, I'm like his number one enemy.
34:26But he says, I don't agree with a single thing you do.
34:29And I said, Well, I'm sorry.
34:31And he says, But I do like your music.
34:34So music connects people in ways that I think it's very powerful.
34:38It really is.
34:39And that's one of the things that I do miss about the religion.
34:43The music was really, really good.
34:45But you're mentioning all of these names.
34:47And Chino and I have been going through the whole series in the podcast.
34:51And names like Bruce Kinsey, I've heard that name over and over and over again.
34:55But I've heard him from Chino's perspective of all of the cult-related stuff.
35:00And to hear the personal side, this is entertaining to me.
35:05Here's a little insight into Bruce Kinsey and how different he was from his father-in-law.
35:11At some point, probably after the guitar, I shared, and again, regretfully, my heart with her
35:18that I thought she was God's choice for my wife.
35:21And she was upset because by this time, I was an acknowledged third-tier, five-fold minister in the church.
35:28So she went to Bruce and said, Bruce, what am I going to do?
35:31This five-fold minister believes I'm to be his wife.
35:35And in other prophetic churches, he would have probably tried to give her a word or say,
35:39well, you better marry him then.
35:40But no, Bruce said, well, how do you feel about it?
35:44He said, do you reciprocate the affection?
35:47No.
35:48He said, well, that's your answer right there.
35:50And I just thank Bruce for setting us both on the right path, the right trail.
35:56Debbie, by the way, this leads me down another, it's all connected, trail.
36:03I was sharing this apartment in Lafayette with her older brother, Hal, and I'd love to get him on your
36:10podcast.
36:10I want to get him to meet up with me and Cheno sometime because he lives down in the Summer
36:16Shade area of Kentucky.
36:18And he's a good, good guy, but he's still, well, I won't say.
36:24We're being recorded.
36:25But anyway, not all of us have been totally deprogrammed.
36:29I'll just say that.
36:32So he was finishing up an electrical engineering degree at Purdue, and so he finished.
36:38And then his youngest brother came to live at the apartment and was fine with having me as a roommate.
36:45I got along pretty much with everybody.
36:47And so Brad, he was a little different, though.
36:50He didn't just do everything as would be expected.
36:55He wore tight jeans with eel-skin cowboy boots.
37:01He collected different types of cowboy boots.
37:03And he kind of had a little bit of a saunter in his walk.
37:10And I'm sure we all probably thought he had a spirit of pride, but we all did and didn't know
37:14it.
37:15But he was sauntered up front to the microphone, and the Lord shows me there's a lady here with a
37:21toothache.
37:22You know, he felt like he had the word of knowledge.
37:25Well, that didn't go very well with Bruce for some reason or another, probably because he didn't fit, you know,
37:30the look, the mold.
37:32And Bruce told him, you know, I don't think that's a word of knowledge.
37:36And anyway, Brad ended up leaving the church.
37:39Before he did, I was uncomfortable with him.
37:42Now I appreciate it.
37:46He would strip the veneer right off of anybody he talked to.
37:49He wouldn't let you just have whatever the word is.
37:53I have trouble with my vocabulary anymore, but, you know, false impressions, false whatever.
38:00You know, he would just cut right through it.
38:02And we'd even talk about, so how much of Bruce's message tonight do you think was anointed?
38:0860%, half, 80%, 90%.
38:11But while Brad and I were rooming together, he started dating against church rules.
38:17A young gal, freshman over at Purdue, tiny little thing.
38:22I don't even remember her name, but I won't say it.
38:24She's from Ohio, Roman Catholic background.
38:26But he was actually trying to witness to her about the Romans Road and being saved.
38:32And he said, Chuck, every time I bring up the Bible or Jesus to her, she goes into a trance.
38:37And I'm like, what the heck, you know?
38:40And he's like, can I bring her over to the apartment?
38:43You can pray for her.
38:46Like, well, let's talk to some other brothers.
38:49And interestingly enough, I didn't say, well, let's take her to the leadership, you know?
38:54It's like, well, let's get some other brothers to pray, and I'll fast a few days.
38:59We'll see what happens.
39:01But he brought her up to the apartment, and she sat on the couch.
39:04I remember it clear as day.
39:05And he and I were in office chairs in front of her, and he tried to get her to go
39:11to Romans.
39:12We had our Bibles with us.
39:13And yeah, her eyes glazed over, and she wasn't there anymore.
39:16Of course, we start speaking in tongues and rebuking spirits.
39:20And at one point, God's honest truth, John, and again, I am to the point now where I think some
39:26of this, if not all, can be psychology.
39:29But at the same time, I don't want to dismiss the spiritual realm and the reality of demons.
39:35But this little girl got up off of the couch.
39:38Brad was over six feet tall, lifting weights, probably taking protein drinks, we'll say.
39:44She started choking him.
39:45She put her hands around his neck, and he could not get her hands off of his neck.
39:52Like, she had supernatural strength.
39:54And I'm just over here praying in the spirit, and I go to touch her, lay my hand on her
39:58shoulder.
39:58And I don't know if I touched her or barely touched her or whatever, but she just sunk in the
40:02floor like a wet rag.
40:04And, of course, I wanted to think, well, that's pretty cool, but I knew I better not think that because
40:10then pride would enter in.
40:13So, but she wasn't on the floor too long, a few minutes or whatever.
40:17When she got up, she goes, how did I get here?
40:19And we told her, and she sat back on the couch, and we led her through a prayer of salvation,
40:24baptism of the Spirit.
40:25And to this day, I've never seen a person's countenance change because, again, during the time she was in a
40:33trance, she actually, we didn't record it, but she actually spoke in guttural voices.
40:40She said, well, and she would go, she would flip back and forth from, I'm going to kill you to,
40:48hey, guys, it's just the three of us here, you know, and try to seduce us.
40:53And, you know, we just closed our eyes, prayed in the spirit, whatever.
40:58So, anyway, that was the only time I felt like that was anything I ever experienced close to the reality
41:05of demonic possession and deliverance.
41:09She went back to Ohio, and her Catholic priest said, that couldn't have happened because these guys were not Catholic
41:17exorcists.
41:19You know, it's funny how many different religions have this kind of thing.
41:23There's a, and I go back and forth.
41:25I know on the Pentecostal charismatic side, it's casting out demons.
41:28But if you look at the psychology behind it, well, the Hindu priests can do the same thing.
41:32Are they casting out a demon, or are they injecting a demon, you know?
41:35So, there's this real gray area, but having had family that had mental health issues and watching how the countenance
41:42can change, the thoughts, the speech, all of the different things whenever there's an issue.
41:47And then carry that forward just a little bit.
41:50The Pentecostal charismatic movement will say that the mental health issues are also demons.
41:55And so, yes, if you go in that circle, it is.
41:58But does the medicine cure the demon?
42:00I don't know.
42:01So, I kind of go back and forth, but I've never witnessed exactly what you said.
42:05I've witnessed a few things similar.
42:07And in the end, for me, it's like this.
42:09If it works, I'm all for helping somebody if you can help somebody.
42:15And if it makes them worse, then you have to ask some questions.
42:19And in the way that it's done in the charismatic movement, I've actually seen both sides of this.
42:23I've seen it get much better.
42:25I've seen it get much, much worse.
42:26Yeah, and that goes back to that therapist I was telling you about that talked about working with people in
42:32the belief system or paradigm that they embrace.
42:36And Debbie and I now know of friends who were in the call that wouldn't take an antidepressant, for example,
42:43and after escaping would get on a mild antidepressant.
42:47And it just improved their life tremendously.
42:49And so, yeah, I totally agree with that.
42:56And someone recently I told, my bottom line now is somewhat, I guess, I'm more of a utilitarian, and that's
43:06what you were talking about.
43:07If it works for them, if it doesn't harm other people, God bless them.
43:12You know, I mean, it's not very orthodox maybe, but, you know, I just, I think there's such a great
43:24freedom, and I took my freedom too far.
43:27When I took a few years in West Virginia to sow the wild oats I never sowed as a young
43:32man, imbibing in moonshine, live music, and dancing, I won't say loose women, but dancing with women.
43:38And my friends here in West Virginia say, Chuck, you are so blessed that Debbie is such a saint to
43:46have put up with you through all of that.
43:49So, I'm so thankful for her.
43:51She is a sweetheart.
43:53Oh, my gosh.
43:55But, yeah, I mean, the freedom I was trying to allude to was not feeling like God's going to strike
44:03me with lightning if I say the wrong thing, think the wrong thing.
44:07When I went through my theological faith crisis, I just said, you know what, even if there's no God, no
44:14afterlife, I still have to get along right now, day to day.
44:19Thank God I didn't stay there, but, yeah, I still believe in God, and I also probably have compartmentalized things
44:27and have that, what do you call it, cognitive dissonance or whatever.
44:33But I'll tell people, I still believe in Jesus in my heart, but my brain doesn't always agree.
44:40You know, and that's something that not a lot of people will talk about, and especially if you've never been
44:46in this kind of background and you go to a church where there's a minister who is unfamiliar with how
44:51that background can affect you, they will take it to extremes.
44:54But that's a real problem, because the God that you were taught isn't the God of the Bible, and so
45:00as you're connecting with your spirituality and you start to read the Bible and you start to make those connections
45:07and you realize the difference, that's fine.
45:10But then you read that one trigger verse from the Bible that takes you back to the other God, and
45:14you're like, I don't know about this.
45:16Your head will, I'm still, I've been out, we left January 1st, 2012, I still have that kind of thing
45:24happening to me, maybe not daily anymore, but it's frequently.
45:28Something that helped me, well, a lot of people helped me along the way, when Debbie and I, and the
45:34timing was, I guess, worked in our favor, you know, Debbie and I married in June of 84, Freeman died
45:42in December of that year.
45:43I, throughout my whole time in the Lafayette Church, I always felt and had a heart to be a missionary
45:53in Appalachia, and that's one of the things that brought Debbie and I together.
45:57When she started coming up on Sunday mornings and bringing cookies and pie and fixing meals for her brother and
46:03I, she was winning my heart, and she took interest in my family photos from West Virginia.
46:11In fact, our first date wasn't a date, but it was a group event of, I don't know, six or
46:18eight young people from the church.
46:19We took a whitewater raft trip in West Virginia, and I call that our first date.
46:26We did whitewater rafting together.
46:29So, but, yeah, so then we, yeah, we had our first two babies at home with a midwife in Lafayette,
46:39then we had two more with a midwife and a medical doctor in West Virginia who had delivered a bunch
46:49of babies in Africa on the mission field, and she delivered our fourth child in the home.
46:57She brought her nurse with her, and so, you know, this was part of our getting out and away from
47:03the cult-like thinking, accepting help from medically trained people.
47:11And so, I think where I was trying to go with this story is the people who helped me during
47:20our time in Parsons, West Virginia, Tucker County, a local Methodist pastor named Hal Roadtruck.
47:27He and his wife were spirit-filled ministers, and they had a little home group, and this was the first
47:34United Methodist Church, so the church was not charismatic or Pentecostal.
47:38So, and he really helped get Debbie and I back on track, got me back in school.
47:46So, prior to that, we were working with a Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee Pentecostal church in the same town,
47:56but I got in trouble there because Brother Rhodes, bless his heart, he and I would go fishing and have
48:05a great old time.
48:06But he had, I forget which, somewhat famous quartet came into our little town in their giant bus and sang,
48:14and he sent them to the basement while he made the appeal for money offering for them.
48:20And here I am in my spiritual pride, and I stand up, and this was not the custom in that
48:26church, but I stood up and I said,
48:28Thus saith the Lord, I am not here for your pocketbooks and your money, I'm here for your heart.
48:35Oh, I got in so much trouble.
48:37So, anyway, they didn't really say a lot, but when I showed up the next Sunday morning to take the
48:42youth to their Sunday school class I was teaching,
48:45as they were dismissing the classes, the youth will now go to their class with Sister Rhodes.
48:51It wasn't Brother Chuck anymore.
48:54Anyway, yeah, Hal Rowe Chuck, and here's the irony with Hal.
48:58He believed in divine healing, but his theology was going to be with Jesus was the ultimate healing.
49:05Well, to me, that still doesn't make logical sense.
49:08To me, healing is being cured of your illness.
49:12But the nicest, kindest, most Christian man you'd ever want to know passed away early with a wife and children
49:19of stomach cancer.
49:21That's so sad.
49:22And, you know, it really doesn't matter if you're in the divine healing crowd or if you're in a divine
49:26healing cult
49:27or if you're in one of the churches that is against this sort of thing or if you're in between,
49:32like it sounds like Hal was.
49:34It doesn't matter.
49:35You're still going to have a body of people, some of whom are going to be sick,
49:38some of whom are going to die of their sicknesses, and others who get better.
49:42It's just a, you know, it's a fact of life because we're humans and we live in human bodies.
49:48Anyway, Hal was a good guy, and he helped get me back on track to finish my bachelor's degree,
49:54and he warned me at that time.
49:55He said, Chuck, I'm getting ready to leave the Methodist Church because of their stand on social issues.
50:01He said, I'm going to join the CMA, Christian Missionary Alliance, which I'm learning more about through your podcast.
50:08And he said, do what you can in the Methodist Church, which I may – I went as far as
50:13a licensed local pastor,
50:16first in the West Virginia Conference and then out here in Indiana.
50:20So I ended up with a couple little churches in Anderson, Colonial United Methodists,
50:25that, again, irony of ironies, as to my most recent knowledge, which has been years ago,
50:32folded for lack of attendance, hopefully not because of me, and sold to a full gospel group.
50:38Darrell Bock So you were a pastor in the Faith Assembly sect and one of the satellite groups,
50:43and you have now experienced both the cult life and the non-cult life as it relates to church, worldviews,
50:50etc.
50:50What advice would you give people who are leaving the cult and they're trying to find their pathway?
50:57Yeah, that's a great question.
50:59And, again, I don't know who it was I heard say recently, maybe Cheno, maybe you, whoever,
51:04one size doesn't fit all.
51:07Darrell Bock I am still a big believer in trying my best and would suggest others try their best to
51:16–
51:16and it's confusing, especially when you're just leaving a cult, but I won't say be led of the Spirit.
51:22I'll say be led by your heart, by your intuition.
51:27And I liked – I watched your podcast last night with Laura Lynn, I think is her name,
51:32and she was talking about the difficulty of going back into a church after leaving a cult
51:38and that you might just want, as what happened with Debbie and I in a healthy way,
51:44find a nice home group somewhere.
51:46You know, find some healthy Christians that you can meet together with in a home.
51:51I just love the intimate setting of a home group,
51:55and there's no denominational hierarchy to, you know, rob you of the tithes and offerings
52:01and force doctrine upon you, but find a good fellowship.
52:07Some of our friends, when they left Lafayette, went to a megachurch, actually,
52:14which I've never been comfortable as a small-town guy in anything huge, mega.
52:21But Grace Community Church here in Carmel, Indiana, again, the emphasis upon grace
52:27and the Cridal family is who I'm thinking of, found a healing environment there in that church.
52:35So it's not like you can't find a healthy church that understands where you've been
52:39and help you – and you don't want to – probably wouldn't be comfortable with the term
52:44deprogramming as you're leaving, but just heal.
52:49Heal your wounds.
52:51There will always be scars.
52:54But yeah, just find like-minded, kind, generous, non-judgmental people that you can fellowship with,
53:02read your Bible, study the Bible, share opinions in a safe space.
53:07Darrell Bock Well, that's very good advice.
53:08And one thing I'll add to it, which you've already mentioned,
53:11if you find one of these places, one of these churches that has the home group concept
53:16and you start meeting in the homes of each other,
53:19it's really hard to have an authoritarian figure in a home
53:22because if they start to act like that, you just go to a different home.
53:27Because as people, you can recognize the – you know, some people are flawed and have some issues.
53:32I'll just say it like that.
53:33The irony of what I just said is if you're in a cult and you go to a cult church
53:38and somebody starts to do this, you get sucked in.
53:41So it's such an odd balance.
53:44And it just goes to show that when you are aware of your surroundings
53:48and you can critically think, you'll make a good decision.
53:51In the home group, somebody acts up, you go to a different house.
53:54You should do the same thing in a church.
53:57So that's all I'll add to it.
53:58But anyway, this has been fun.
54:01Thank you so much for doing this.
54:02Darrell Bock Certainly.
54:03Darrell Bock Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information
54:05or to share your story, you can check us out on the web.
54:08You can find us at william-brannum.org.
54:10For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,
54:13you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
54:17Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:02Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
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