When Churches Become Kingdoms: The Dangerous Logic Behind Theocratic Faith Movements | Episode 523 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Jed examine how modern charismatic movements evolved into closed systems of authority that function like miniature theocratic states. Drawing from personal experience, historical revival movements, and recent scandals surrounding IHOP KC, they explain how unaccountable leadership, failed prophecies, and rewritten histories create environments where abuse can flourish.  The conversation traces the ideological lineage from early healing revivals and Branhamism to the New Apostolic Reformation, showing how spiritual language is used to shield power, suppress dissent, and bypass accountability. This episode challenges listeners to recognize the warning signs of authoritarian religion and consider why these systems continue to repeat the same cycle of rise, collapse, and reinvention.  00:00 Introduction 00:31 Illness, Context, and Theocratic Themes 02:50 The Mike Bickle Investigation and IHOPKC Response 10:46 “Repentance” Without Accountability 14:20 Theocratic Ideology and Political Parallels 21:15 Christian Dominionism and the Seven Mountains 29:33 IHOPKC Fundraising and Public Messaging 36:46 Rewriting History: The IHOPKC Origin Story 43:46 Why the Structure Itself Is Corrupt 51:29 Failed Prophecies and Joel’s Army 57:32 Controlling Information and Silencing Critics 1:00:05 The Cult Pattern and Cycles of Collapse 1:03:00 Closing Thoughts and Resources ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of

00:00:46a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.

00:00:51Jed, it's good to finally be back.

00:00:53I've mentioned this, I guess, a couple times now.

00:00:55This is my third podcast after having the flu.

00:00:57So, as we're talking, if my voice totally gives out, it's because I'm fighting this

00:01:03thing that has consumed my body, and man, it kicked my butt.

00:01:07I was in the bed for a week and a half or longer, and family started getting it.

00:01:12So, I'm working through a voice thing, but hopefully you can hear what I'm saying, and

00:01:16it's at an important time because we have a lot of events, both political and religious

00:01:22and some historical events that we can talk through.

00:01:25It all is, all of it seems to be tying together in ways that are really scary if you look

00:01:31at

00:01:31the world around us.

00:01:33And I want to talk through that.

00:01:34I don't know that I've ever done this yet.

00:01:37We've mentioned briefly what it means, but in the history that I've been going through

00:01:42from Dowie to Branham to Christian Identity to IHOPKC, there's a theme that begins to

00:01:49emerge over time, and you can watch it slowly emerge and evolve, and it's this idea that

00:01:55we can create a theocracy, a theocratic state where one person has the supreme authority.

00:02:02And the reason that's significant and important, which I'll let you talk about this, but if

00:02:07you look at, like, the Roy's report, the example she's giving on not just IHOPKC, but

00:02:12all of these groups, they're like miniature theocratic states within themselves.

00:02:17They're governing in a theocracy.

00:02:19You can't touch the leader.

00:02:21They're untouchable.

00:02:22You as a rank-and-file member, you have no say whatsoever.

00:02:25We want to be fully submitting to this new deity that is the preacher behind the platform,

00:02:32behind the podium on the platform.

00:02:34The level of accountability that is had within these sort of theocratic states is purely based

00:02:44off of the whims of whatever leaders are in charge.

00:02:46So, we have situations in which someone, like, for example, let's just get specific with

00:02:55Mike Bickle and IHOPKC.

00:02:59It comes out that Mike Bickle is doing many of the things that we have talked about in the

00:03:06past, but abusing individuals, grooming young women, using prophecy to groom young women,

00:03:15and the list, I mean, the list of his offenses grows very long.

00:03:20And so, there's a full investigative report that is given about this that is even from

00:03:27another organization that is in spiritual agreement with IHOPKC.

00:03:38This is an organization that may disagree on a few things, but is largely in sort of the same

00:03:46charismatic stream.

00:03:48I think that they are our messianic Jewish community that was doing it, but, you know,

00:03:55largely IHOPKC and Tikkun, which did this investigation, are brother churches, you could say.

00:04:07And so, even it was coming from within the sort of community, this was a report that was given

00:04:16that should have been taken extremely seriously.

00:04:20And not only did IHOPKC not actually engage in the investigation, so just to back up a little bit,

00:04:27there was pressure from people like me and you and a lot of individuals online who pressured IHOPKC

00:04:37to take some accountability and allow an investigation, corroborate an investigation to investigate Mike

00:04:44and see, hey, what just was the extent of what was going on at IHOP.

00:04:49And so, there was money that was raised and then Tikkun launched this investigation.

00:05:00But IHOPKC, the leadership team of IHOPKC refused to take part and refused to give their support of it.

00:05:09So, it was an investigation of a ministry that wasn't participating in that ministry.

00:05:14So, you're not going to find a lot of information about what was going on there if the actual organization

00:05:20doesn't engage.

00:05:21Nevertheless, there still was so much information and so much testimony from people like my mother

00:05:27and people who had been formerly abused by Mike and people who had once been in the organization.

00:05:34There was so much information, they were able to put together this very detailed report about all of the offenses,

00:05:42not only that Mike Bigel was doing, but the entire IHOPKC leadership was a part of

00:05:51and was helping facilitate some of the, I mean, just straight up sexual abuse.

00:05:58And despite this investigation that was very specific and detailed and had all sorts of corroborating evidence to it,

00:06:08there was this report that was given along with what was called a pastoral recommendation.

00:06:18So, there was this report that was released and then there was several pastors and therapists and spiritual leaders.

00:06:25All, again, this is within the sort of Pentecostal charismatic community that are very much on board with end times

00:06:36prayer movement

00:06:36and, you know, the larger IHOP agenda.

00:06:45All of these individuals are coming, they should be authority figures in it.

00:06:49And this is a super roundabout way of getting into it, John, but I just wanted to give context of

00:06:55when we're saying there's an organization now

00:06:58that just has this sort of their own kingdom.

00:07:01It really is.

00:07:02It feels very futile in a sense where you have these leaders who are accountable to absolutely no one

00:07:12outside of their sort of specific sphere because this report is main and the recommendation is given.

00:07:24There's a lot to the recommendation that was given.

00:07:28I frankly don't think that was nearly strict enough in it, but I understand where, you know, this recommendation was

00:07:36coming from.

00:07:37But one of the things within the recommendation is that all of the IHOP leadership, the core IHOP leadership needs

00:07:47to step down

00:07:49because of just the level of deception that was going on, the level of sort of coercion that was going

00:07:58on within IHOP leadership

00:08:00to facilitate and have this sort of systemic issue at the core of the International House of Prayer for all

00:08:09the decades that it has existed.

00:08:12And by name, they mention in this report Joseph Taylor, who has now become the sort of face of IHOP

00:08:22KC,

00:08:22which there has been a rotating face since Mike Bickle departed.

00:08:28Mike Bickle and Alan Hood were, well, primarily Mike Bickle and then Alan Hood for some years.

00:08:35Those were the sort of faces of IHOP KC when I was growing up and well into, I mean, just

00:08:42three years ago.

00:08:43Mike was still very much the face of IHOP KC.

00:08:47There would be different people who would speak.

00:08:49Then, of course, when Mike was sort of forced to step down and this scandal comes out,

00:08:56you've had different individuals who have kind of come up and been the mouthpiece of IHOP KC.

00:09:02It was Isaac Bennett for a period of time.

00:09:06I don't know what happened with him.

00:09:07He is no longer, at least it doesn't appear like he is involved with IHOP right now.

00:09:14Um, they had a, um, they, they hired a, um, PR guy to come in.

00:09:23His name was Eric.

00:09:24I can't remember what his last name is.

00:09:26Um, but he came in and he was sort of the face for a few, um, for a period of

00:09:33time.

00:09:33Um, but Joseph Taylor and his wife, um, Heba Taylor, um, are now sort of recording videos.

00:09:41And it looks like they are the ones who are, um, sort of pastoring, um, the flock, so to speak,

00:09:52right now.

00:09:52Um, and yet Joseph was one of the individuals who was named explicitly in this recommendation to step down, um,

00:10:02because this recommendation, um, is coming from a place of being like, hey, look, there is a systemic issue.

00:10:08It's not just Mike, it's not just what happened with him.

00:10:13The IHOP KC leadership, um, was systemically involved with, with, um, protecting, um, sexual abusers, not just Mike.

00:10:25There were several other individuals who were perpetrating, um, uh, perpetrating sexual abuse within that community.

00:10:33And that's not, it's not just sexual abuse.

00:10:36It's also deceit.

00:10:38It's also prophetic manipulation.

00:10:40It's, there's a whole host of things that we have talked ad nauseum about in the past.

00:10:46So you have this very salient recommendation from a brother religious organization.

00:10:53And yet even within that context, there is what appears to be a campaign to sort of absorb the criticism,

00:11:09move on and rebuild IHOP KC.

00:11:12Like the, the, the, the entire IHOP, uh, webpage has been washed of mentioned to Mike Bickle, but still has

00:11:23all of Mike Bickle's language.

00:11:25Um, the way it, it actually reads super culty.

00:11:29Now, all of the conversation feels very culty now because it's, it's talking, it's a whole lot of talk about

00:11:35nothing.

00:11:36Um, when they address, like when Joseph and, uh, have a, had several videos where they sort of talk about

00:11:45the, um, taken report and the, uh, pastoral recommendation that was given.

00:11:53And they just talk around it.

00:11:55They don't actually ever really get into any of the details.

00:11:59None of the details about what Mike Bickle did, um, none of the details of what they're sort of doing

00:12:06to change the culture at IHOP.

00:12:08Um, not, um, having any salience around what is actually going on, but it's this very like, okay, let's move

00:12:19forward.

00:12:20Let's repent, forgive and heal.

00:12:23But with repentance, there, there's absolutely no actual specific mention of what they're repenting.

00:12:29For or from what Mike would be repenting for or from what the, what actually was the rot at the

00:12:37root of, um, the situation.

00:12:39So it's this really, um, cult.

00:12:43Um, I think that if ever the term cult was appropriate with IHOP Casey, which it always was, it is

00:12:50certainly still now because you listen to it.

00:12:53And it, it's, it sounds almost more like the Hollywood version of cults where people talk about it.

00:13:00It's like, we're just about love and forgiveness and peace and has sort of that new age vibe to of

00:13:05it now where you, you can have them talk for 20 minutes.

00:13:11And you're like, okay, nothing was ever said in that entire 20 minutes other than just sort of repeating general

00:13:18phrases, just using, invoking the name of God several different times to sort of be like, as long as, as

00:13:26long as you worship Jesus and I worship Jesus, we're on the same team.

00:13:30Um, and it, it's so intentionally nebulous, um, in order to avoid any sense of accountability and construct this sort

00:13:41of theocratic little micro kingdom.

00:13:47Um, it's so complicated to explain, especially to somebody who's been in this, whenever your mind has been manipulated in

00:13:55such a way that you've got these blinders on, you can only see one direction.

00:14:00It's, it's kind of like if you had a, if you had a plug and you're trying to plug it

00:14:03into a wall outlet and the, the prongs break off.

00:14:08So it's forever stuck in that outlet.

00:14:11Well, that's kind of how the cult mindset is.

00:14:13You can go try to plug it in other outlets and it's just not going to fit and it doesn't

00:14:17quite work properly in the outlet that it's supposed to work in because the prongs are broke off.

00:14:22That's a lot how it is with a cult.

00:14:23They have numbed your head where you can't really see outside of the problem that you, you have a problem

00:14:29here.

00:14:29There's something wrong here.

00:14:31People who we've talked about the seven mountain man's mandate and people kind of get that because they can see

00:14:38that.

00:14:38Yes, there are some serious issues with that type of philosophy.

00:14:42If I mentioned theocratic state, however, it's interesting because people who have been informed of what is wrong with seven

00:14:51mountains, they don't recognize that it's actually the same thing.

00:14:54Just it's a broader scope.

00:14:56It's a, it's a more defining aspect of, of what this is.

00:15:02So theocratic state agenda basically is religious control of civil life, law, education, courts, media.

00:15:10Basically, we want to govern your civil life because if you submit your civil life to us, your supernatural spiritual

00:15:17authority, we will handle everything from God's law, not from man's law.

00:15:22That's, that's, that's the idea of a theocratic state.

00:15:25John Alexander Dowie, who created one of the biggest con artist schemes of known in the nation under the name

00:15:31of religion.

00:15:32When, when, after he created Zion city and this massive commune of, I want to say it was like a

00:15:38hundred thousand people had came and signed 1000 year leases in this place.

00:15:44They had so disconnected their brain from reality that they literally signed a 1000 year lease to join this commune,

00:15:51knowing that they're not going to live a thousand years, but being told that they are so mentally they're doing

00:15:57this mental tug of war in their head.

00:15:59After this, Dowie tries to attack the, he tries to go towards Washington.

00:16:04He wants to create a theocracy of the United States.

00:16:07So he is basically the prototype for most of this, but here's where it gets interesting.

00:16:13When I was in the call, like, like I said, I was this, this guy plugged into the wrong wall

00:16:18outlet.

00:16:18I could look at all other wall outlets and see that they're not going to work.

00:16:22Meaning I could see that I was in the Branham cult.

00:16:25I thought it was real.

00:16:26I thought it was connected.

00:16:27And I could look at all other cults and see all of their flaws, every one of them.

00:16:31So I could never plug into those.

00:16:34I still thought I was plugged into mine and thought it was the real thing, but there was no real

00:16:38connection between me and God.

00:16:40It was just me in this cult.

00:16:42When I looked at the other cults, I could see all of their flaws, but I couldn't recognize that that

00:16:47same flaw existed for me.

00:16:50If I'm plugging into the wall outlet, I can't plug into the other wall outlets because I have no prongs.

00:16:54We also can't really plug into mine.

00:16:55And so I didn't recognize that it was the same thing in different variations.

00:17:01Where it got really odd for me is whenever I learned that IHOPKC was really Branhamism 2.0, and yet

00:17:08I could look at IHOPKC and all of the NAR groups that were emerging while I was in the cult.

00:17:14I could see their flaws and not even recognize that they had built on the flaws of the group that

00:17:21I was in.

00:17:22That was irony hitting me in the face, right?

00:17:25But more to the point, I could see that whenever some leader went rogue and did something horrific like Bickle

00:17:32did, like many of the others that are on the Roy's report, I could look at those and say, well,

00:17:38those people should have really kicked their leader out.

00:17:41They just need to move on.

00:17:43I could honestly say this, and yet I couldn't recognize the same thing going on in the cult that I

00:17:49was in.

00:17:50That's the irony of all of this.

00:17:52And we have taken it so far to extremes in pushing this theocratic agenda.

00:17:58So while I was down with the flu, apparently there was this mission to overthrow the government in Venezuela.

00:18:05I woke up and we now run Venezuela.

00:18:07What kind of world is this in 2026?

00:18:11And there are a number of people.

00:18:14I've scrolled through Facebook, and you can see all kinds of my friends, some of whom support my website.

00:18:20Who support that?

00:18:22I think it's a great thing we have overthrown a government.

00:18:25Yes, yay, we've overthrown the government.

00:18:28And rightfully so to some extent.

00:18:30I have some friends who are actually from Venezuela who say that this was a good thing for their country.

00:18:36This was a horrific regime.

00:18:37I get that.

00:18:39But at the same time, two wrongs don't make a right.

00:18:42We have a person who's in power, who's running it like a theocracy, who is backed by all of these

00:18:49NAR leadership,

00:18:51who is pushing a theocratic governance, who now says, I'm going to bypass Congress.

00:18:56I don't care if now I have no sway in Congress because the Democrats have taken over.

00:19:02I'm just going to bypass our entire government system altogether and just go do what I want.

00:19:08You find people who are on the comment feeds, even some who support this website and podcast, who say, well,

00:19:14this is a good thing.

00:19:15Look, he overthrown this government.

00:19:16And not understand the consequences of what just happened.

00:19:20Picture the reverse of this.

00:19:23Say that after Trump's gone, some liberal takes over office and he wants to completely overturn something that violates any

00:19:31of the NAR commandments.

00:19:33And I'm just going to bypass Congress and do this.

00:19:36I'm going to – I hate to throw something out.

00:19:39I'll get negative mail – feedback and mail.

00:19:42But you know what I'm saying?

00:19:44If there's no boundaries and you allow something to happen, then what happens whenever those boundaries don't work in your

00:19:53favor?

00:19:54That's really where the problem lies here.

00:19:56So take IHOPKC, what we're reading that's happening there.

00:20:00To the people in IHOPKC, if we avoid the civil law, if we avoid all of the prosecution that should

00:20:07happen because of our theocratic – our miniature theocratic state that we're creating in this cult.

00:20:13And yet we will condemn the Robert Morrises or any of the other cults where severe bad things happen.

00:20:21We're so blinded that we don't recognize that the bad that happens outside is also happening within our own walls.

00:20:29And that's because of this theocratic mindset that's being pushed.

00:20:33And it is the notion that there has to be a supreme authority, a figure that is above all accountability

00:20:41in our group.

00:20:42And we must shut down all critical thinking about our leadership and let them do whatever it is that they

00:20:48want to do.

00:20:49Absolutely agree and love what you're saying.

00:20:51There's a couple of things that you were saying just there, John, that I want to respond to that have

00:20:59parallels in both sort of the microcosm of IHOPKC.

00:21:03And the macro, much more important, critical things that's going on with our nation.

00:21:09And not just our nation, but globally.

00:21:13But you said when you were talking about your sort of connection in Branhamism or the Branham sort of cults,

00:21:27you talked about there being no connection to God.

00:21:30And the wall outlet-like analogy.

00:21:36What I think is really important to point out is that there is this idea of theocracy that a lot

00:21:45of people support and latch on to that I think is really scary and dangerous.

00:21:51Whether or not it is even genuinely connected to Christianity, I do not think that Christianity should superimpose its will

00:22:03on the nation because I believe in multiculturalism and want to see people who believe in different religions to have

00:22:12freedom of religion.

00:22:13Like it's not just for, you know, the freedoms of our constitution should not just be for me and or

00:22:20for Christians and not true for other individuals.

00:22:24But even so, there are still probably a lot of people who have this sort of like, because they have

00:22:32such a positive relationship with their own religion.

00:22:35And this idea of a sort of theocratic state, at least to some degree, is very appealing to them because

00:22:43they're like, well, why not get God more involved with what's going on in our nation?

00:22:48And that's the whole mentality between the seven mountains mandate.

00:22:54Sometimes it's very explicitly Christian dominionism.

00:22:57Sometimes it's more softly Christian dominionism.

00:23:00It's still Christian dominionism regardless, but it's this idea because like, well, you know, I love God.

00:23:07God loves the United States or God loves this church or God loves you.

00:23:12So the more that we can get God towards the center of this nation, this organization, this church, whatever it

00:23:20might be, the better, more fruitful that's going to be.

00:23:25But yeah, there is not a real connection to God.

00:23:29I mean, this is the hard truth of it is that it isn't Christianity that IHOPKC is doing.

00:23:37It's a form of sort of like they're using sort of Christian biblical principles behind it.

00:23:45It's a cult.

00:23:46It's like you said, Branhamism 2.0, it's its own thing.

00:23:51It has evolved the rules and regulations that dictate the IHOPKC world are just flat out different than the majority

00:24:03of what Christianity has been historically.

00:24:05Um, and how they interpret the Bible.

00:24:08Like I was watching these Joseph and, and, uh, have a Taylor talk about, um, they had these, this three

00:24:18video series about the future of IHOPK.

00:24:21And they would reference the Bible, but the Bible is just sort of a tool for them to make whatever

00:24:30convenient political or sort of, um, interpersonal, um, argument that they're trying to do.

00:24:41It, there isn't sort of any allegiance to a greater doctrine.

00:24:45There is an allegiance to, um, other institutions that have been involved in this doctrine.

00:24:53I mean, it really is these, um, theocratic states that are not subservient to a larger Christian, um, or religious

00:25:04doctrine.

00:25:05And that's, I think that's absolutely reflected too, with, um, our president too, where it's this, you know, it's one

00:25:12thing when you have, uh, a individual who's working on behalf of like a greater organization or movement.

00:25:21But when that individual gets to make decisions based on some degree of whim and whether or not it's about

00:25:31protecting, I mean, in both cases, it's about protecting finances.

00:25:35Um, let's just be absolutely clear with IHOPKC.

00:25:39IHOPKC, they are trying to figure out how do we keep this thing alive and we keep donations coming in.

00:25:47The only reason that Mike Bickle was ever removed from IHOPKC is because it was financially, um, causing a problem

00:25:56for them.

00:25:57There was donors, they were losing donors because there was this corrupt individual who is the face of the organization.

00:26:05So they removed him from the face of the organization, but now, and you, and I know this because you

00:26:10can hear it in the way that they talk about Mike in these interviews, because they're having behind the scenes

00:26:17meetings with people who still support Mike.

00:26:19And so they're trying to do this catch 22 thing where they're trying to be like, we removed Mike because

00:26:26there needs to be repentance.

00:26:27They never talk about what actually happens.

00:26:30They never show any sense of like pain or remorse towards the victims.

00:26:38Not once have they ever mentioned any of the victims of Mike Bickle's abuse, right?

00:26:44This is Joseph, Joseph and, uh, Heba, but this is also true for, um, Isaac Bennett and the different mouthpieces

00:26:53who have been at the helm of IHOPKC.

00:26:57Um, there is no sense of, um, accountability or, um, engagement with what Mike did, not just what Mike did,

00:27:11but what IHOPK did.

00:27:12Um, so people very rightfully are recognizing on both sides, individuals who are, um, rooted in truth and see what

00:27:23Mike did and want accountability and care for the victims are recognizing the showmanship that's going on at IHOPK right

00:27:32now.

00:27:32Um, and it seems to me by listening to how, um, Joseph and Heba, um, talk about this.

00:27:41And I encourage people if they want to look up these videos to, um, it, the, there's three videos on

00:27:50YouTube right now from the international house prayer.

00:27:52That's, uh, it's, uh, moving forward with repentance, forgiveness, and healing.

00:27:56This is the, the, the video series that I'm talking about.

00:28:00Um, but multiple times they, Joseph specifically is referencing that he still cares for Mike and he still wants, um,

00:28:12sort of restoration for Mike.

00:28:15And they're working through that and it, it's very vague and how it's done.

00:28:20Um, but you can hear that he is trying to also not lose the donors who are there, who are

00:28:27going to give money to IHOP specifically because of Mike.

00:28:30And there are still those people.

00:28:31There are still people who are multimillionaires who are going to donate to the international house of prayer because they

00:28:38are still bought into the cult personality of Mike pickle.

00:28:41Um, and they are probably furious at IHOP right now for bending the knee to the woke mob or whatever

00:28:49they want to call it of individuals who have caused called for accountability.

00:28:53Um, and so that's sort of why you get this terribly toned F and very, um, um, toothless conversation about

00:29:06what's going on, um, from Joseph and Heba.

00:29:09Because they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

00:29:13They want money.

00:29:14They, they need money.

00:29:16They need donors to keep coming in.

00:29:18They've sent several, um, fundraising emails out and, uh, fundraising campaigns because they need IHOP to start bringing in cash.

00:29:31Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:29:40reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:29:45You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:29:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:30:00John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:30:06You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:30:13If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:30:19top.

00:30:20And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:30:25watching.

00:30:26On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:30:31I have some interesting conversations with my friends because in my mindset, whenever I was indoctrinated, I was trapped in

00:30:41a world that was basically the 40s and 50s.

00:30:45Yet the outside world was continuing.

00:30:48My mindset was like 40s and 50s.

00:30:50When I listened to music, when I was in the cult, I was listening to the 1950s and 60s type

00:30:57gospel songs, like you'd seen the old black and white films on YouTube.

00:31:01That's how we were living.

00:31:03We were dressing like the 50s.

00:31:04We had haircuts like the 50s.

00:31:07We even had a poster when you walked into the Branham Tabernacle.

00:31:10There's this poster board, and it had this paper that said, these are modern style haircuts.

00:31:15You're not allowed to have them.

00:31:16And it had a picture of the Beatles.

00:31:18And as I'm walking down, I'm thinking, who wants to cut their hair like the Beatles, man?

00:31:22That's just not.

00:31:23But that's how we were.

00:31:25We were trapped in this mindset.

00:31:26So it leaves me with interesting conversations because people will talk about things that I have no frame of reference

00:31:32whatsoever.

00:31:33My mindset's the 40s and 50s.

00:31:35It's really interesting when I'm talking about music because music has gone so far beyond what I'm familiar with.

00:31:42When I started experiencing new music after leaving this cult, I'm listening to things like The Birds, which most people

00:31:51have not even heard of The Birds.

00:31:53But to everything, turn, turn, turn.

00:31:55That kind of music, I love it.

00:31:57I love the late 60s and 70s.

00:32:00And some of the modern stuff, I just simply don't even understand it.

00:32:03Where it gets interesting as it relates to this conversation, it's the same thing for me with television.

00:32:10I really love the old 1950s and 60s cartoons, television, the black and white Andy Griffith, those kind of things.

00:32:18And the lifestyle that's being portrayed in that era is so vastly different than this era.

00:32:27And where I'm heading with this is a weird direction that I hope I don't lose people.

00:32:32I've been doing these podcasts by myself to kind of ground some of the statements that I make.

00:32:37This may be deserving of one of those if I don't pull this off.

00:32:40But in the 1950s and 60s, you saw all these television shows where a minority figure comes in.

00:32:47It might be a Hindu.

00:32:48It might be a Muslim.

00:32:51Some minority figure comes into the picture and they're being, they feel out of place.

00:32:57They feel out of sorts.

00:32:59Somebody in the old 1950s dress in black and white would go make them feel good.

00:33:03And it was a feel-good show.

00:33:05This person, maybe they're a Muslim.

00:33:08They worship God.

00:33:09We worship God.

00:33:11They don't understand our God.

00:33:12We don't understand their God.

00:33:13But let's love each other.

00:33:15Let's have an Andy Griffith-style dinner and bring them to the table.

00:33:19That was the mindset back then.

00:33:21You had shows like Johnny Quest cartoon where you've got Haji.

00:33:25Haji, I don't know what he was.

00:33:27He might have been Hindu or something.

00:33:29But even the name Haji right now is offensive.

00:33:32I don't know if it's because of the show.

00:33:34But the world has changed significantly.

00:33:37People were respectful of other people's beliefs and religions.

00:33:41And whenever you thought about God, you thought about God in the way of being a creator.

00:33:48He who created the heavens and the earth.

00:33:50So I'm a Christian.

00:33:50I believe that my God created the heavens and the earth.

00:33:54Well, this other person who's worshiping God, they also believe that God or gods created the heavens and earth.

00:34:01They just have a different understanding of God.

00:34:04And that was the mindset back then.

00:34:06By and large, you know, there were some extremes.

00:34:09But by and large, that's how it was.

00:34:10Fast forward to today's world.

00:34:13You have the evangelicals, which have risen from minorities to some extent.

00:34:20There were a lot of evangelicals.

00:34:22But the idea that we should eradicate all other belief systems, that was not a prevalent idea in the 1940s,

00:34:3150s, and 60s.

00:34:33Instead, what you had was, let's show them love.

00:34:35Let's show them what we believe.

00:34:38Because maybe if we love them enough, they will join our religion.

00:34:42That was the mindset back then.

00:34:43Today, it's let's eradicate them.

00:34:45Let's wipe them out.

00:34:46Let's push them out of the country.

00:34:48And the further this goes in time, what you start seeing is, as the minority groups become no longer a

00:34:55minority, in other words, in today's world, in the United States, there are many, many different Muslim, Hindu, different groups.

00:35:03And you're starting to see them no longer the minority status that they were.

00:35:08Well, now those who are indoctrinated to believe that we must eradicate, now they have a growing threat.

00:35:14And so that growing threat is rising up, right?

00:35:18At the same exact time that all of this is happening, the cult groups, which were in a minority, if

00:35:24you look at the NAR today, they're by far, they're no longer a minority.

00:35:29You might even say that in Christianity, they may not be in a majority, but they're getting very close.

00:35:35And so what happens is, if you're in an IHOP KC, or if you're in one of the Bethel or

00:35:40Robert Morris' Gateway, any of these different cult groups,

00:35:43what you start to see when you look outside of your box, you start to see something that is no

00:35:48longer a minority.

00:35:49Our belief system is quite common, so therefore it must be the right one.

00:35:55And whenever you have leadership who are bypassing the laws so that they can stay in a status where they

00:36:02are beyond any accountability whatsoever,

00:36:05well, if I look outside of my group and look to the other group, well, their group also, their leadership

00:36:10is not accountable.

00:36:11And so what has happened is this weird shift where the minorities have now grown into a semi-majority, not

00:36:18quite a majority,

00:36:20but the people who are indoctrinated to think that they can live in this wrong way now see others who

00:36:26are living in the wrong way.

00:36:27And so it makes people like Julie Royce, who's doing the Royce Report, where do you stop?

00:36:32I mean, you can go all through all of these different groups that have grown and developed from this,

00:36:37each one thinking they're doing the right thing, and yet not seeing how wrong it is.

00:36:42Well, and there's a separation between the leadership and the people, too, even within these organizations.

00:36:51So you have IHOPKC that came into being in the 1990s, in 1999, and I was alive during this time,

00:37:06and my family was a very big part of this.

00:37:09And here, let me read it specifically.

00:37:12Right now, on the website of the International House of Prayer, here is the way, in their sort of who

00:37:20we are section,

00:37:22they have a statement on how it began, how it all began.

00:37:26And this is verbatim, reading it straight, this is what they have written.

00:37:31On a crisp day in the fall of 1999, a small, ragtag band of worshipers and intercessors gave themselves to

00:37:38a ridiculous, beautiful dream.

00:37:40Hour by hour, day after day, sometimes in an empty room, men and women, young and old, all races,

00:37:45began to gather with a vision as simple in its essence as it was extraordinary in its scope.

00:37:52Unceasing prayer with worship.

00:37:56So, a couple things that are wrong with that.

00:37:58First of all, it was not a small, ragtag band.

00:38:02IHOP got launched from Metro Christian Fellowship, which was a megachurch.

00:38:12The building that we were in at Metro Christian Fellowship is the same larger building that IHOP has its Sunday

00:38:23services in,

00:38:24which is, or where Forerunner Christian Fellowship now resides, which is IHOP's sort of Sunday service arm.

00:38:36That was a whole thing.

00:38:38Like, there was thousands of people who were coming every Sunday to Metro Christian Fellowship.

00:38:43So, this idea that it was a small, ragtag band, I think does, it's just rewriting things.

00:38:50I don't know if it changes it for the better, but it's just this sort of retelling of the story

00:38:56to make it sound like,

00:38:58man, we had very humble beginnings.

00:39:00They were not humble beginnings.

00:39:02It also didn't start in fall.

00:39:05It started in summer.

00:39:06And there was several, like, it didn't start at 24-hour prayer.

00:39:12It was, you know, first 10 hours and then 12 hours, and they sort of worked it up.

00:39:16And even after the way that IHOP has talked about it in the past is, like, oh, there was a

00:39:25prayer service that started in September, I think, 22nd of 1999 that has lasted and not ceased.

00:39:33There were several times it stopped in between.

00:39:36There was different, you know, it wasn't, there wasn't enough people who were on board, on staff.

00:39:46Like, committed to 24-hour house of prayer, despite there being a very large movement behind this sort of thing

00:39:52and having a lot of funds and everything like that.

00:39:54It was just, it was difficult to pull off, which, again, I don't actually think that it really means much

00:40:00that it's this difference.

00:40:02But the idea is that they're just retelling the story.

00:40:05And what I find particularly offensive is, like, it's also my story.

00:40:10As much as IHOP KC, I am not a part of IHOP KC anymore.

00:40:15I'm not on the leadership, don't want to be a part of it, don't want to be a part of

00:40:19the congregation of it.

00:40:20But it is my story.

00:40:22I grew up there.

00:40:23I was as much involved in the creation of IHOP KC as most other individuals, obviously not as, like, Mike

00:40:30or probably even my parents.

00:40:33But it was certainly a formational part of my identity.

00:40:37And I was a part of that ragtag band of worshippers and intercessors.

00:40:44I was nine, but I still, like, I lived there.

00:40:48I spent more time at the early IHOP than probably anybody who is currently at IHOP KC.

00:40:54Almost certainly for the first, like, five, ten years, I definitely spent more time in the prayer room than a

00:41:01lot of them.

00:41:01A lot of them weren't even there.

00:41:03And I think it's really interesting because there is now this group of people who are talking about what's best

00:41:09for IHOP.

00:41:10And they're trying to be like, well, we must hold this.

00:41:13If you polled all of the people who were there at its sort of inception or even within the first

00:41:21five years, I think that you would have an overwhelming consensus to shut it down.

00:41:27Because so many different individuals, especially if you polled the children who grew up in it, if you polled the

00:41:34children, I would venture a guess to say that 95% of the children that I grew up with at

00:41:40IHOP are, like, shut that, shut it down.

00:41:46And I'm not just throwing that number out.

00:41:48Like, I realistically think that the greater majority of those who grew up in that community want it shut down.

00:41:59But yet, I don't have any agency, not back then, not now, not ever, on the direction of IHOP KC

00:42:08because it's a cult.

00:42:09And because I'm not among the cult leaders.

00:42:12Of that organization.

00:42:15It isn't a democratic church.

00:42:17It isn't a church at all.

00:42:19Because a church has the sort of like the body of church.

00:42:22When you are a part of the church, you assume a sense of ownership of that organization.

00:42:31And I never had that.

00:42:33Alan Hood was one of the, I mean, he was the most important voice, at least.

00:42:42In the International House of Prayer, besides Mike.

00:42:46And he was on this sort of, he was one of the leaders of the advocacy team that was helping,

00:42:57exposing all of this information about Mike and calling for accountability.

00:43:01And he has been completely extricated from that entire community.

00:43:06I know for a fact that he was like, totally shunned by the community that he once was a part

00:43:13of.

00:43:13And if you look online, too, there's all sorts of like propaganda that is being used and targeted against Alan,

00:43:21which I feel bad for him.

00:43:23I also like, he also was part of maintaining a cult for a long time.

00:43:28So, you know, I think that this is, he has started to reflect on the fact that like, he was

00:43:34helping create something that was really insidious in a lot of respects.

00:43:41So, so it's a complicated situation.

00:43:44But anyway, like, like, IHOP should not exist anymore.

00:43:48The people who created it, either created it with extremely insidious intentions, or, or complicit within a larger thing that

00:44:01they were not aware of, like me and like my parents, and like Alan and others.

00:44:07And have now recognized the sort of rot at the root of it and have called for it to be

00:44:12dismantled.

00:44:13And yet it keeps going, because it's profitable for people, people make money off of it.

00:44:21And the apparatus can exist with the soul being totally pulled from the organization and be replaced with another thing.

00:44:32I mean, it's not a coincidence, and we've talked about this many times, that they target young adults, they need

00:44:39young people to come in, who, and they specifically tell them, don't go online, don't listen, don't research these things.

00:44:47This is not me being hyperbolic.

00:44:49Like, if people watch the videos that I was talking about, they quite literally are like, talk about it being

00:44:55sort of sinful to investigate further about situations like this.

00:45:02I'm trying to remember the exact words, but Heba Taylor, talks about, we need to move forward.

00:45:10And there's this sense in which, if we, it is a lie from the enemy, that getting more information about

00:45:20what is going on will settle your soul.

00:45:22And the reason why she was telling it is because she's like, don't research, don't read the report, don't read

00:45:29the report.

00:45:30I mean, you're free to do it if you want to, but don't read what's being said online for, God

00:45:35forbid, don't go on to John Collins' podcast because, oh my goodness, all sorts of problems with that.

00:45:43But it's to keep people away from finding out what is going on so that they can be used, exploited,

00:45:55burnt out, and then chucked to the side.

00:45:58Charles calls it the ebbs and flows.

00:45:59If you listen to the Revival History series, he talks about the cults.

00:46:03They grow in power, then something happens, and there's this boom and bust.

00:46:07He calls it the boom and bust cycles, they'll suddenly grow up and they'll bust, and then it'll fade back

00:46:13down, then it'll grow up again.

00:46:15And what he's really talking about, if you understand it, history keeps repeating itself.

00:46:20Whether you're talking politics, whether you're talking about religion, we start to see the same patterns emerge over time, over

00:46:27and over and over.

00:46:28And it'll build up so much that people will suddenly recognize there's something really wrong here, and then there's a

00:46:36shift.

00:46:36But the wrong is kind of eliminated for a period of time, then those that don't remember history repeat it

00:46:43again, and it just keeps happening over and over.

00:46:45As I said earlier, what makes this more insidious is the fact that a lot of the people who are

00:46:53more extremists, who were a vast minority,

00:46:57now they're rising up into levels that I don't know that we've seen in the history of the United States.

00:47:04Literally, we're talking about movements that have been underground, who are now emerging as mainstream religious organizations,

00:47:12which is scary when you think about it.

00:47:15But it's that boom and bust cycle.

00:47:17Eventually, what's going to happen?

00:47:18There'll be enough Juileroys out there that will say, this is wrong, let's walk away from it.

00:47:22People will suddenly walk away, hey, we do not want a person who has this history with young women.

00:47:28We want somebody who's respectable, who's going to be a godly man in our church.

00:47:33And so they walk away from it until they forget that that happened, and then it cycles again.

00:47:37It's a boom and bust cycle.

00:47:40At some point, however, people need to really take a step back and think that if you're in a religion

00:47:47that has no boundaries or guide rails,

00:47:50that you have leadership who are pushing you, that we don't have any accountability in the leadership,

00:47:55you're not allowed to question our authority.

00:47:58If you have that framework, whether it's a good person or a bad person,

00:48:02eventually, if it's a good person, eventually that person may not be the one behind the pulpit.

00:48:07Eventually, somebody else who is a wrong person, who is somebody who is a predator, might get behind the pulpit.

00:48:14You have to understand the framework of religious systems that allow evil.

00:48:20And when I look at IHOPKC and I see a rebranding of Branhamism,

00:48:24Branhamism which did allow quite evil things to happen,

00:48:28you can look through some of that history in the books that I've written,

00:48:31but we have a systematic structure for the religious system that allows bad things to happen,

00:48:40and we've not corrected it for all of these decades.

00:48:43And finally, somebody rebranded it and called it the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:48:49And Wagner fully admitted, this is something that already exists.

00:48:52I'm just naming it.

00:48:53Well, he's naming that system that allows all of the bad things to happen.

00:48:58Why did he not stand up and say,

00:49:01here's this thing that already exists,

00:49:03and then look at the devastating things that it has caused in the realm of religion.

00:49:07Why didn't he say that instead?

00:49:09Because he didn't, and because he wanted to further expand that bad thing,

00:49:14now we have what we see today.

00:49:16And it has led to people like Mike Bickle,

00:49:19who there is no accountability to his supreme authority within that group,

00:49:25but yet they will condemn other groups.

00:49:27That's the funny part.

00:49:28They will condemn other groups that have just as bad things happen,

00:49:30because it's a different leader, it's a different authority,

00:49:33and they don't submit to that authority.

00:49:35Yeah, I mean, even with my dad,

00:49:38when IHOPKC had no problem posting publicly,

00:49:43being like, well, Bob Hartley is no longer welcome on the premises,

00:49:47because it was bad for optics,

00:49:49and there was no major donors that were Bob Hartley fans

00:49:53that they were going to lose by saying that.

00:49:56So the idea that they care about restoration,

00:50:04or they care about money,

00:50:07and they care about authority,

00:50:08and they are co-opting this sort of vehicle that was built

00:50:14by me, and by the people I grew up with,

00:50:19and by the community that I was raised in,

00:50:22who has largely recognized the thing that we built was off.

00:50:27And it isn't just about because Mike Bickle was sexually

00:50:33abusing people through that apparatus.

00:50:36That is the thing that is the smoking gun.

00:50:39But it also was about the prophetic manipulation.

00:50:45That's why I always hammer the central premise

00:50:50that Mike Bickle used prophecy,

00:50:52prophecies about the death of his own wife

00:50:54to manipulate and groom young women.

00:51:00So like his spiritual authority,

00:51:03the same spiritual authority that he was using

00:51:05to construct the very identity of this organization,

00:51:10the same spiritual authority and spiritual revelations

00:51:15that became the bedrock for this entire movement

00:51:19was also intermixed with these,

00:51:23and used to exploit and abuse young women

00:51:31with prophecies about the death of his own wife.

00:51:35I mean, as corrupt as it gets.

00:51:38And beyond that, too, all of the prophecies have failed.

00:51:43There is no Joel's army.

00:51:45That was supposed to be something that happened,

00:51:49that happened in this generation.

00:51:51It was specific about my generation,

00:51:54and the generation kind of right above me,

00:51:58the sort of like young Gen Xers and old millennials,

00:52:01that we were to be the ones

00:52:04who were supposed to lead revivals

00:52:07and were going to usher in the end times.

00:52:11I mean, the end times was supposed to be happening by now.

00:52:14There were supposed to be signs and wonders in the skies in 2015.

00:52:21There was going to be solar flares

00:52:23that knocked out every single satellite in the world.

00:52:28Like, these were prophecies that were made

00:52:29by Mike Bickle, by Bob Jones,

00:52:32and by other prophets that were within the IHOP community.

00:52:36And that was the prophetic history of IHOP

00:52:41was built on this idea.

00:52:44We are going to be that small ragtag band

00:52:49of worshipers and intercessors

00:52:50were for these specific purposes,

00:52:55and none of them came to fruition.

00:52:58So, IHOP doesn't exist anymore.

00:53:00Like, that, the end times prayer movement

00:53:03that we created,

00:53:04or that we were sort of trying to initiate

00:53:08and be a part of, like, has come and gone.

00:53:10That cycle is done.

00:53:11And I think of this as part of the problem

00:53:13with the sort of way the criticism around IHOP goes,

00:53:20of course, there are not people like me

00:53:22who are going to critique the entire structure

00:53:25of the movement

00:53:27who are still going to have a voice

00:53:31within that community

00:53:32because people like me

00:53:33have been long excommunicated

00:53:35from the organization, you know.

00:53:38And even people like Alan Hood and whatnot

00:53:41have spent most of their life

00:53:44really building this narrative.

00:53:47And so, it is hard at this point

00:53:49to be like, no, fundamentally,

00:53:52this entire movement was built on shaky ground

00:53:56and that this entire thing is corrupt

00:53:58and built on deception.

00:54:00Let's not forget the fraud that has gone on,

00:54:03whether through my father or from Bob Jones

00:54:07or from Paul Kane

00:54:08or these different prophets

00:54:09who outright just lied and made up stories

00:54:13in order to build this whole allure.

00:54:18And it's quite clear that the leadership at IHOP

00:54:23is not even remotely trying to contend

00:54:26with that fundamental structural issue

00:54:30with the entire movement being corrupt.

00:54:33They are trying to cut out

00:54:36and then probably cut out

00:54:39so that they can then put him back in.

00:54:42But they're trying to cut out

00:54:46the bad press around Mike Bickle

00:54:49and then insert him back in.

00:54:51That's all they're trying to do.

00:54:53And I think it's cowardly.

00:54:55I think it is corrupt.

00:54:58And I get so worked up about it

00:55:02because I care for the kids

00:55:04who are at IHOP now,

00:55:08whether it be children,

00:55:09whether it be 18-year-olds, 19-year-olds

00:55:12who are getting sucked in,

00:55:14who look on the IHOP KC webpage

00:55:16and who read about how it all began

00:55:19and think that they're joining something

00:55:21that started in a small ragtag worship prayer.

00:55:29It started as a Bible study

00:55:33and then suddenly the presence of God

00:55:36has sustained the movement

00:55:38for years and years and years

00:55:40so that it has lasted 20-something, 26 years.

00:55:44And that's just not what's happening.

00:55:45That's never what happened.

00:55:47It is not what's going on there.

00:55:49It is an affront to my testimony,

00:55:53my life that I grew up with.

00:55:55It's an affront to everyone

00:55:57who was sacrificed on the altar

00:55:59of the International House of Prayer

00:56:01and on this sort of legacy

00:56:04that was built on our young backs

00:56:08and only to like spit us out

00:56:12and replace us when we started asking questions.

00:56:17I mean, that is the structure of this organization

00:56:19and it's going to happen again.

00:56:22And there are going to be people

00:56:23who find me or find others

00:56:26who are talking about what is going on at IHOP KC.

00:56:31There's going to be people

00:56:31who find it 10 years from now

00:56:33and they're going to be like,

00:56:35man, if I had just heard this in my teens or 20s,

00:56:39so much of my life,

00:56:41you know, all of that suffering

00:56:43that I did in the prayer room,

00:56:45being having no money

00:56:47and giving what money I did have

00:56:49to the organization

00:56:51and hearing about how we were being attacked

00:56:54by demons and whatnot.

00:56:56And hopefully, I hope not this,

00:56:59but, you know,

00:57:00the sexual abuse that I suffered

00:57:02at the hands of leaders there

00:57:04all could have been prevented

00:57:05if I would have just heard the warning signs

00:57:07that recognized the actual fruit

00:57:10of the community that I was a part of.

00:57:12But IHOP is so good

00:57:15at situating itself

00:57:19above and outside

00:57:21of the very real criticism

00:57:24and poignant criticism

00:57:25of its former community members.

00:57:29And so, I mean,

00:57:31this happened with Ernie Gruen

00:57:32in 1991

00:57:35with the larger KCF community

00:57:38where someone tried to

00:57:41raise the alarm

00:57:43about Mike Bickle

00:57:44and Bob Jones

00:57:46and the predatory nature

00:57:48of the sort of prophetic movement

00:57:51that was going on.

00:57:52And I remember growing up

00:57:55and hearing allusions

00:57:56to that event

00:57:59and the way that it was contextualized

00:58:02and the way that I thought

00:58:03Mike Bickle

00:58:04was just so humble

00:58:05and so forgiving

00:58:11in this attack

00:58:13that Ernie Gruen.

00:58:14Like, I remember hearing the narrative

00:58:16being like,

00:58:17oh, wow,

00:58:17he was attacked

00:58:18by this, you know,

00:58:20deranged, demonic individual

00:58:22who wrote all of this slander,

00:58:25but yet he was so humble,

00:58:27he didn't fight against it

00:58:28and he listened

00:58:29and tried to improve.

00:58:30And that is not

00:58:31at all what happened.

00:58:33That is just not

00:58:34at all what happened.

00:58:35And instead,

00:58:37he went and tried

00:58:38to groom several other teenagers

00:58:40during that time

00:58:41and then cut Ernie Gruen out

00:58:45and slandered Ernie Gruen too

00:58:47because that's a whole different story.

00:58:51But, I mean,

00:58:56that's exactly what's going to happen now.

00:58:58I mean, there's people

00:58:59who are being fed

00:59:04just the most obvious lies,

00:59:07but it isn't obvious in the moment

00:59:09because they aren't connected to,

00:59:11they're just disconnected

00:59:13from the rest of reality

00:59:15and they're disconnected

00:59:16from voices like mine

00:59:18and yours

00:59:18and Julie Roy's

00:59:20and others

00:59:21who have kind of seen it

00:59:23and been like,

00:59:24this is,

00:59:24here's the rotten fruit

00:59:26of the community.

00:59:29They're

00:59:32completely cut off

00:59:34from that

00:59:34and it has become

00:59:35a virtue

00:59:36of

00:59:37the organization

00:59:39that they are

00:59:40sort of lauding

00:59:41and trying to evoke

00:59:44within the community

00:59:45is to be

00:59:47disconnected

00:59:48from the internet,

00:59:50being disconnected

00:59:50from other voices.

00:59:52Don't do,

00:59:53don't go research,

00:59:54don't look into

00:59:55what happened,

00:59:56don't listen,

00:59:57forgive

00:59:58and move on.

00:59:59And it's like,

01:00:00what are we even forgiving?

01:00:01It was hard not to think back

01:00:03to some of the movies

01:00:04that I've seen

01:00:04while you were talking.

01:00:05I know this is a weird tangent,

01:00:07but hear me out,

01:00:08I'll end it with this.

01:00:10I love a good crime story

01:00:12and I love,

01:00:13especially the superhero movies

01:00:14and if you think about

01:00:15superhero movies,

01:00:16there's usually a super villain,

01:00:18he's usually an ego,

01:00:20egotistical maniac.

01:00:22In those stories,

01:00:25they take people

01:00:26under their wings

01:00:27and they try to give them

01:00:29this elitist mentality

01:00:30and the way that they do it

01:00:31is they try to pretend

01:00:33like they're humble

01:00:33and so they have

01:00:35this humble presentation

01:00:36and they give the people

01:00:38who they're,

01:00:39if they're a con artist,

01:00:40they're part of the con,

01:00:42they're part of the scam,

01:00:43they are the ragtag army,

01:00:45you are the elite ones,

01:00:46you are the ones,

01:00:47you're more than

01:00:48the other people,

01:00:49you know what I'm saying?

01:00:50They try to give you that,

01:00:52I don't know,

01:00:53that persona

01:00:53that you are,

01:00:56it's not just

01:00:57that you're saved,

01:00:58you were chosen.

01:00:59It's that type of mentality,

01:01:01right?

01:01:01And then through the course

01:01:02of the story,

01:01:03there's usually a part

01:01:04where the leader falls

01:01:07and if it's a con artist,

01:01:08he has done some con

01:01:09and he got caught,

01:01:10well,

01:01:11the people that he's convinced

01:01:13that he's humble

01:01:14and he's doing the right thing

01:01:15even though he's conning people

01:01:17out of their money,

01:01:17they try to pick him back up

01:01:19and they help him up

01:01:20and then at the end

01:01:21of the story

01:01:22is the big massive long con

01:01:23that is the climax

01:01:25of the story

01:01:26and in the end

01:01:27when they all get in trouble,

01:01:28there's that person

01:01:29who is coming up

01:01:31head to head

01:01:32with the bad guy

01:01:32saying,

01:01:33I'm nothing like you

01:01:35and he says,

01:01:35you're just like me

01:01:36and that story

01:01:37keeps repeating itself

01:01:39through movies.

01:01:40Well,

01:01:40there's a reason

01:01:41why it does.

01:01:42Think of what

01:01:43you're describing,

01:01:44think of what the people

01:01:45in IHOP-KC

01:01:46are going through.

01:01:47They have been convinced

01:01:48that they're not just saved,

01:01:49they're chosen.

01:01:50Jesus didn't just save them,

01:01:52they were the ragtag army

01:01:54that's,

01:01:54they're the elite ones,

01:01:56they're the big ones,

01:01:57right?

01:01:57And our leader's so humble,

01:01:58he would never do anything

01:01:59that we wouldn't do.

01:02:01He's a sinner,

01:02:02just like us.

01:02:03Eventually,

01:02:04somebody like you

01:02:05and hopefully many others

01:02:07in the future

01:02:07will rise up and say,

01:02:09no,

01:02:09I'm nothing like you.

01:02:10I did not use my authority

01:02:13to groom people

01:02:14for the purposes

01:02:15that you did.

01:02:17I'm trying to keep it

01:02:18G-rated here.

01:02:19I'm nothing like you.

01:02:21And you can see that story

01:02:22in Hollywood,

01:02:23you can read it in the books,

01:02:24and you can read it

01:02:25in the cults.

01:02:26It happens time and time again,

01:02:27but what happens is

01:02:29the leader will fall,

01:02:30he has convinced people

01:02:31that he's this humble figure,

01:02:33they lift him back up,

01:02:34and then suddenly

01:02:35he does the same thing again.

01:02:36And oh,

01:02:37I'm so surprised

01:02:37he did the same thing again.

01:02:39How could we have been so blind?

01:02:41But it happens again

01:02:42and again and again.

01:02:43And it will continue to happen

01:02:45until people like,

01:02:46more people like you

01:02:47stand up and say,

01:02:48no,

01:02:49you're nothing like me.

01:02:50I'm nothing like you.

01:02:51You're purely evil,

01:02:52and I don't want to be like this.

01:02:54Yeah.

01:02:54So,

01:02:55thank you for standing up.

01:02:57Yeah,

01:02:57my pleasure.

01:02:58Well,

01:02:58if you've enjoyed our show

01:02:59and you want more information,

01:03:00you can check us out on the web.

01:03:01You can find us at

01:03:02william-branham.org.

01:03:04For more about the dark side

01:03:05of the New Apostolic Reformation,

01:03:06you can read

01:03:07Weaponized Religion,

01:03:08From Christian Identity to the NAR,

01:03:11available on Amazon,

01:03:12Kindle,

01:03:13and Audible.

01:03:13Fear't.

01:03:17Fear't.

01:03:24I'll be there.

01:03:26Fear't.

01:03:27Fear's.

01:03:28Fear,

01:03:31Fear,

01:03:32fear,

01:03:34Fear,

01:03:42year,

When Churches Become Kingdoms: The Dangerous Logic Behind Theocratic Faith Movements | Episode 523

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