Chuck Smith and the Rise of Cover Up Culture in Charismatic Christianity

2 days ago

John examines the Paul Cain transcript involving Chuck Smith and explains why it matters far beyond a single conversation. By looking at redactions, power dynamics, and historical context, he shows how indirect pressure and silence functioned inside charismatic leadership networks.

The episode traces a broader pattern of cover-up culture from the post-war healing revivals through later charismatic and apostolic movements. Rather than focusing on individual sins, the discussion centers on how secrecy, authority, and institutional protection shaped outcomes that still affect churches today.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:51 Cover-Up Culture And Why It Changes People
06:24 Hero Worship And The “Moses Model” Framework
09:53 Paul Cain’s Confrontation And A Behind-The-Scenes Example
15:10 Sexuality, Stigma, And How Secrecy Gets Weaponized
24:28 Network Connections: Chuck Smith, Wimber, Frisbee, Shepherding
39:23 “Partner” Language, Census Context, And Research Questions
49:08 Accountability Crisis And The 2007 “Day Of Reckoning” Era
54:34 Closing Reflections On Transparency And Harm
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Transcript

00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, where history proves that truth, or at least their version of it,

00:46is truly stranger than fiction. Today I'm going to be getting into a subject that really,

00:51really matters to me, and that is cover-up culture. I grew up in a world of cover-up culture,

00:58as many of you already know, and it changes you. It changes the way you think. It changes the way

01:05that you act. After you escape it, it changes the way that you view people. It changes the way that

01:11you, if you go to church, it changes the way that you think of church. Cover-up culture is so

01:16destructive

01:17that for the rest of your life, if you've been involved with it, some aspect of your life will

01:23be impacted by cover-up culture. Now, this is really important to me for many reasons.

01:31One of the things that I have tried to do is show how many of these movements that exist today

01:37have

01:37progressed from the same issues that existed back in the Branham movement, and even to some extent

01:45before this, because I start to recognize these patterns, and I've not really talked deeply about

01:53why I do what I do. I've mentioned a few times it is to help people, but at the core,

01:59if you

02:00understand the core of all of the work that I do, it's not even to target the individual. Say it's

02:07Branham I'm researching. It's not even so much to target Branham. Branham was just a product of the

02:12world he lived in and the people that he interacted with. Many of his revelations came directly from

02:18other people in the same era who were doing the same thing. But what matters to me is the fact

02:24that

02:25because cover-up culture exists, all of the problems that exist in Branhamism can come forward into

02:33charismatic movement. All of those can come forward into the new apostolic reformation. Cover-up culture

02:39is a virus and a plague that just threatens, in fact, our entire society. Just today, as I was going

02:49through the notes trying to lay out how I'm going to cover this, because this is a delicate topic,

02:54and I'll mention why in just a second. As I'm going through this, the news came on and I saw

02:59that

03:00the prince, Andrew, has been arrested for, I'm not going to give the details and who he's involved

03:07with because YouTube might censor, but he was being arrested in a grand scheme of cover-up culture,

03:13if you understand what happened there. That cover-up culture exists in the UK, it exists in the United

03:19States. Globally, this is a problem, and it's not something that is centralized to Christianity.

03:25But because that, because the fact that many people who were in this culture that I'm about to

03:33describe had ties to politics, politicians, political agendas, as you understand that framework,

03:41you understand how cover-up culture can exist in Christianity. Otherwise, if you just read the

03:46Bible, the Bible makes it clear that cover-up culture is sin. Just pure, plain, and simple,

03:52it's sin. Yet, it seems to be dominating the Christian religion today. As I said, this work

03:59really matters to me, and it has been very, very costly. In fact, recently, a private file,

04:06a project I had working in progress, was shared outside of our team without authorization.

04:13And a few collaborators decided they can't go forward with me if I'm going to release information

04:20about a person that I believe is involved with hero worship. Now, this is a huge problem because this

04:28shows me that the cover-up culture not only exists in the cults that we came out of, but people

04:33have

04:34been so impacted by cover-up culture that when they leave, they still remain in that mindset.

04:40If we can cover this up, we can continue. I don't work that way. I don't operate that way.

04:47And it would be really unfair to the other researchers who have given me a large portion of what I'm

04:53about

04:53to talk through today. It would be unfair to them if I cover up one group while not covering up

05:00another.

05:00This is a big problem, if you understand this. In fact, this is a problem I've dealt with for years.

05:07One of the problems that I really have is when you have multiple people of multiple groups

05:11working together as researchers, some of those groups may have been impacted positively by something

05:20I'm researching, or negative, vice versa. You have researchers who can't work with other

05:26researchers because the cover-up culture has trained them to believe that you can't share facts.

05:32And for me, I don't have a dog in the fight. I just share the facts. And for the sole

05:38purpose not

05:38to make any group look bad or any individual, even the heroes that are being worshipped, I don't try to

05:44make them look bad. I just want to show the facts and show the history that has been covered up.

05:48That's one of the things that I do. And to the point of hero worship, I see hero worship as

05:56just

05:57a big of a plague that really enables this cover-up culture. I don't care who the hero is. It

06:03may have

06:03actually been a good person with nothing to cover up. But when you make a human out to be a

06:08hero,

06:09you're making the wrong, you're worshipping the wrong thing. Hero worship is worship of a human.

06:16And the Bible clearly tells you who you're supposed to worship. So in Christianity, I see no place for

06:23hero worship. I don't care who it is. Today, we're going to be talking about Chuck Smith.

06:27Chuck Smith may have had nothing in his past that's bad. I'm not going to say that he did or

06:32didn't.

06:33But when you have hero worship, and the man becomes more than a man, in Christianity, this is a problem.

06:39I'll be mentioning John Wimber. I'll be mentioning Paul Kane. Many of these people are heroes to one

06:45group or another. And interestingly, with some of the researchers that have, they may be the opposite

06:51of a hero to them. So you've got this weird battle that I deal with daily. People really have no

06:58idea.

06:58Years ago, I started to publish all of the research of William Branham and his mentor, Roy Davis.

07:04There's a lot of really, really bad things that were happening. And that's part of the history,

07:10the culture that I came from, and quite frankly, the culture that developed into exactly what we're

07:15talking today. And I had one researcher that was one of my biggest partners, did not want me to

07:22publish the information when I found it, because it might make some of the people who had escaped look

07:28bad. And I just, I can't operate like that. You cannot, you cannot tell truth by covering up truth.

07:36That's, that's my opinion. So I'm going to be getting into this today. As I said, I'm mentioning

07:41Chuck Smith. And it's not that I'm focusing negatively against Chuck Smith. I'm going to be

07:49mentioning John Wimber. It's not that I'm really negative against John Wimber. Definitely not. I have

07:54no reason to even attack Calvary Chapel or Vineyard. I have no reason to suspect that they have

08:01developed in an unhealthy way. I think I've said that a few times. I don't know if people have

08:06caught it. I have no reason to suspect this because nobody has shared with me any facts that are

08:11critical of that. But there are milestones in the history that are critical and are important.

08:17And if you forget those milestones, what happens is history continues to repeat itself exactly as it

08:23has done. Leader centered authority structures create incentives for silence. When these allegations

08:31surface, if they've become a hero and they've entered into a realm of destructiveness within the

08:38church, that enables all kinds of problems with the church. So the recent example, Bethel, Bethel is

08:46having huge problems right now. And they have publicly acknowledged several failures in their process,

08:52the silence, the mishandling. If you understand what that is, it goes back to the culture that I'm

08:59about to talk about today. And Bethel is just one of the... I'm going to say it like this because

09:06I don't

09:06think people realize. Bethel is actually a victim of what I'm talking about today. Not that Bethel is good

09:14by no means or bad by no means. I'm not going to say either. But they are a victim. Had

09:20this culture not

09:21existed, this problem within Bethel may have never existed. Go all the way back down the chain. Had this

09:27had this cover-up culture not existed, look at IHOPKC. Would they have had the problems? Probably not.

09:35The problems may have existed in certain individuals, but without the cover-up culture, it would have been

09:41stopped very quickly. So I see cover-up culture is one of the most important things that I could possibly

09:46talk about. Recently, I went through an example of cover-up culture that not many people were aware

09:56of. And I want to touch on this just a bit because there are so many different movements, leaders,

10:03heroes within hero worship within this point in time of this intersection that they're all connected in

10:10one way or another. And people have no idea of the connections because of the cover-up culture.

10:16I recently went through a transcript where Paul Kane had confronted Chuck Smith along with Jack Deere.

10:24Jack Deere was present. And Paul Kane was confronting Chuck Smith for remarks that were made by Smith at a

10:32pastor's conference that were circulating on tape recording. And this is an example of what happens

10:39within cover-up culture behind the scenes that people never see. This gives us an inside view

10:44into cover-up culture. And you can find this document on my website. If you go to the Paul Kane

10:49page and

10:50go to the publication section, you'll find this document. But to summarize it, Paul Kane is upset,

10:58clearly upset if you read through the transcript. And he's taking offense with some remarks that Chuck

11:05Smith apparently made about high-flying lifestyle, money, offering allegations, and basically marks

11:13against Paul Kane's reputation. And this would have caused Paul Kane severe damage to his ministry.

11:20I don't know that he really would have recovered from this. And again, look at this intersection in

11:26time. Had Paul Kane been stopped, then would there have been an IHOP KC? If not an IHOP KC,

11:33how far would the NAR have developed with its Seven Mountains Mandate Agenda? You can almost go

11:39through time with all of these milestones and see that these intersections in time are very, very

11:44important. And again, it's not really to say anything negatively about Chuck Smith in this instance,

11:52except for this one thing. Smith was a product of cover-up culture. And if you understand what is

12:00being said in this transcript, and again, this is a recording that Paul Kane made, and then watch the

12:06actions that are taken afterwards, Chuck Smith issues a letter retracting his statements that

12:12were made on tape recording. So we don't know the intentions of the hearts of the men who are involved

12:17in that meeting. But what we do see is there was clearly an attempt to cover things up. And that's

12:24the point I want to stress. I don't want to go too deeply with what each person was thinking and

12:28why.

12:29You can never prove this. I can tell you what it looks like, but you cannot prove that. So facts

12:36are

12:36facts. Kane alleges this thing against Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith makes a retraction. And we have this

12:43milestone in history that we can continue forward with. So for today's episode, I want to go into the

12:50cover-up culture just a bit more. And I am going to be diving deeper into the relationship between

12:55Chuck Smith, John Wimber, Lonnie Frisbee. These figures that were, to me, they were really important

13:03as an intersection. And I'm going to be doing it slightly different. Most of you who know the podcast

13:10know that I have a style that is a little bit abrasive. And I do that on purpose. It's actually

13:16not

13:17my personality to do this. But when I do, it gets people talking. And they usually focus their anger

13:23against me instead of each other. And so it's actually a strategy that I'm doing. If I can get

13:29this group of people angry at me, they start talking. Well, this other group, start talking to

13:34them. And you can just watch it in the comment feeds. Everybody learned something, and I'm the bad

13:39guy. But today, I want to not use my normal style. I just want to talk through the facts. Because

13:48this is

13:49so important to me. I have huge questions. And these questions are very serious questions. They're not

13:55something that I should be joking about. In fact, I'm working with a more than one public figure on this

14:03area of research. And I took some very needed advice that I need to change my tone, at least for

14:09this particular podcast. Because it is the intersection is the hub of information for several

14:16different threads of streams of history. Some of those streams turned out really good. Some of those

14:23streams turned out really bad. And on both sides, you can't, you can't cover up the facts. But what you

14:30can do is just tell them like they are. I'm not going to use my abrasive style. And I'm going

14:35to

14:35share some of the research that are just simply facts. They're nothing more than facts. But it may

14:41lead to people talking and I may actually get some more research. So this is this is me fishing a

14:47bit

14:47trying to get some people to send facts that they might have to combine it with all of the other

14:53researchers who are working with me on this particular subject. So I'm going to get into that a bit.

14:59But again, let's go back to the cover up culture. Smith responded, but the conversation centers upon

15:07one aspect. If you read through it, Kane is clearly upset that Chuck Smith has outed him as a homosexual.

15:16So I'm going to touch this delicately as well. This is a very important fact, because it ties to some

15:23other cover up culture. And I'm not going to address the issue of homosexuality, you guys can

15:28fight that out among yourselves. If you want to know more about homosexuality and what the Bible

15:33says about it, go to your pastor, let them talk through it. But within the movement, regardless of

15:41what has happened today with that subject and how it's been politicized, at that point in time,

15:46this was a big issue. During William Branham's revivals, it was learned that multiple men working

15:53with him were homosexual at a time when homosexual acts were criminalized in the United States and

16:00Canada. William Branham mentions this on recording. Now, when I was in Canada, they picked up this fella

16:06and went up there and said, right in amongst a bunch of Norwegians, and he said, the Lord tells me

16:12that

16:12somebody in Europe, a crowd about ten times this time, somebody with the name of John, maybe

16:20Johannes, Joanne, said, right along in here, I believe. He said, no, I said, it's right along in here

16:28somewhere, of course, he took him out. In a Norwegian country, everybody, 90% of them is Petersons,

16:34Carlson, John, Johannes, and, well, certainly, see, certainly, it's got to get in there somewhere.

16:41Then the Lord tells me somebody's got back trouble, I feel my back hurting. Anybody that's been raised

16:46through the scripture knows that that's psychology. That certainly is. But see what it do? Then the man

16:53was picked up right there by the FBI from here, sent up there and picked him up up there, the

16:58Royal

16:59Mounted Police and the Ministerial Association come to me, a homosexual. They say, well, Brother Branham's

17:03probably the same thing. That's the way it runs, see? Now, this was a big issue for multiple reasons

17:08during that era. And while the sin of homosexuality, if you view it as such today, still would be the

17:16same as back then, the laws were quite different. As I mentioned, there were people that were arrested.

17:22This was a big deal for many ways. But the biggest of which is this, within the movement,

17:28they taught very strongly that if you were a homosexual, you had a demon. And as such,

17:37if you had this homosexual demon, there were people who were victimized who were homosexual

17:43by a group of people who believed that they could never be saved because this is something that came

17:49within them. This wasn't something that they were able to even choose according to that line of

17:55thinking. So, in other words, it was a branding. You had a Scarlet Letter, you were homosexual,

18:00you were outcast. But at the same time, there were multiple leaders within the movement who were

18:07homosexual, many of which had rank and importance. Paul Kane is just one of the figures, but William

18:15Branham's campaign manager, the Baron William T. Frary von Blumberg, was also homosexual. That is

18:22important for multiple reasons. Not only is he William Branham's campaign manager, he toured with

18:27William Branham throughout Europe, taking William Branham and spreading Branhamism across the world.

18:33And he was a director in the Fellowship Foundation, The Family, if you've watched Netflix and watched

18:39The Family Cult. The Family is tied to places like Bethel. There are quotes out there. You can find them

18:46on the internet if you want to go look. But Bethel is connected to high-ranking figures in the family.

18:52The family is connected to Branhamism. They used to support the National Prayer Breakfast, etc.

18:59So, this was a very public figure. And it was known within the inner circle that he was an avowed

19:06homosexual. Also touring with William Branham, Branham called them his tape boys. They were two

19:13homosexual men who were basically the scribes of the religion. When William Branham would preach,

19:19they would record it. They would distribute the recordings that are going out on cassette tapes.

19:25That was happening within Branhamism. But the two figures who led the entire tape recording and

19:31distribution organization were both homosexual and it was covered up. It's all part of the cover-up

19:38culture. And in fact, I'll let you listen to William Branham's publicist, Lee Vale, and see what he says

19:45about it.

19:45There was with that group that went to Europe. A Christian pro-gospel businessman identified with

19:52them named Ferry von Blomber. Even the name is typical Ferry. And I'm not trying to be facetious,

19:59but look at it. It's absolutely true. That was his name. And he was an avowed homosexual.

20:04At the same time, Leo and Gene, two homosexuals, attached themselves to Brother Branham's ministry's

20:11tape boys, which was allowed by God.

20:14Notice that phrase, which was allowed by God, because that's going to be important as I get

20:20deeper into this. This is an example of what is known by several people as the Moses model.

20:27It was allowed by God. Moses is the anointed. Touch not God's anointed. There's that loaded language

20:34that's being spread through the movement. Touch not God's anointed. They're anointed by God. They're

20:41not have accountability. That was the framework that developed in Branhamism. And that same framework,

20:47as I'll display in this podcast, it continued all through the Jesus movement, the charismatic movement,

20:54all the way to the New Apostolic Reformation. The Moses model is really the problem.

20:59It is a model that allows hero worship. It is a model that makes the heroes, the Moseses,

21:06Moseses, makes them untouchable. And more than that, it makes the people submit to a new deity.

21:14The heroes in the hero worship actually become the deity. And so they're worshiping actually false

21:20gods. And the religion itself isn't so much about Christianity. Jesus isn't the hero that's being

21:26worshiped. It's the stage personas. To Chuck Smith's favor, he did not like the stage persona

21:34model. He did walk away from this. And you can find several biographies where he says, no,

21:40we don't like that. The latter rain movement had all of these tent meetings, these stage personas,

21:45people were worshiping the leaders as though they were gods among men. I can't remember his exact

21:51phrasing. Don't quote me on that. But he did not like it. And he shifted away from that. That's a

21:57good thing. The problem is there were attributes that were destructive that were carried forward,

22:03which I'll get into. One of them includes the Moses model. Now, homosexuality is just one of the

22:10problems. If you look at the church today that exists from this movement, there are an array of other

22:17problems from financial to sexual to all sorts of problems within the organization that was being

22:25established that would lead to all of this that we're talking about today. Homosexuality is just one

22:30aspect of it. There were also problems that they were aware of that existed between men and women in

22:39the movement. And William Branham's publicist also goes on to talk about the leader, one of the leaders of

22:46the shepherding movement earned Baxter. Baxter was the Baxter half of the Baxter Branham campaigns.

22:52He was William Branham's campaign manager. He also toured through Europe. So he was aware of all of these

22:58things, potentially aware of all these things going on. I would say that you almost can't not know, but

23:04I can't say that he did or not. He toured with William Branham. And as he's touring, there were some

23:11issues that apparently allegedly took place. And William Branham's publicist, Lee Vale, talks about

23:17the problems with Ern Baxter.

23:19In 1954, Brother Branham went to India, where there was a Mount Carmel showdown. For all the great

23:29religions of the world were there. The Buddhists, the Mohammedans, the Christians, Catholics, Roman,

23:39no doubt, all the various types, Protestants, what have you. They were there for the great showdown.

23:47When Brother Branham went to India, he took with him some people. And I believe unknown to Brother

23:56Branham was one man. I'm not sure the duplicy got him there or

24:01Burn Baxter. And I'm going to speak very plainly, and I've said it before, and I'm not the least

24:05alarmed to say it because it's the truth. Baxter was a womanizer. He even got drunk on the plane and

24:15came off doing the goose step and everybody laughing at him. In India, he consorted the women. They came

24:21to Brother Branham and said, is it right for the father to have these women?

24:25So let's pause just a minute and let's talk through some of these connections that I've just mentioned.

24:31So we began with Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith, who went on to found Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith, who worked

24:37with Lonnie Frisbee, who was homosexual. And Chuck Smith parted ways, apparently, over the homosexuality and

24:46some of the other things that was happening. Lonnie Frisbee, who also worked with John Wimber, who is

24:52mentioned also in this transcript that took place whenever Paul Cain confronted Chuck Smith.

24:59So Wimber apparently was in the know. Chuck Smith was in the know. Lonnie Frisbee worked with the

25:06shepherding movement and even, according to his biographies, lived in an apartment that was owned

25:11by one of the leaders of the shepherding movement. The shepherding movement, which was led by Ern Baxter.

25:17Baxter, who I just mentioned, was Branham's campaign manager and accused of several things that were

25:23apparently misconduct. So you've got all of this hub of connections. William Branham's scribes,

25:31the two that were mentioned that were homosexual, what they did was so far worse than homosexuality.

25:38So in a way, whether you believe that homosexuality is a sin and should be stopped immediately or

25:46whether you're in the more liberal camp of Christianity, in either case, if you look at what

25:52happened and the abuse that followed, had they been stopped immediately and there wasn't cover-up

25:59culture. It would not have led to the very destructive compound that they called the park.

26:06It was a community in Prescott, Arizona, which is a location where Chuck Smith had a church.

26:12Interestingly, they had a commune that made actually the Supreme Court of California,

26:19a trial talking about all sorts of things that were apparently happening in the church. And it is on

26:25court record. It's not something that I'm saying from rumor. You can actually go read about all

26:31kinds of misconduct from sexual to physical. It is a bad, bad thing. Had it not been covered up,

26:37that would have been stopped. Ern Baxter, if that is true, what is being said, had it been covered up,

26:44had it not been covered up, then would we have a shepherding movement? The shepherding movement was a

26:50very authoritarian structure. It took the Moses model to new extremes because the Moses was at the

26:56top of the pyramid and there were shepherds who were shepherding other shepherds below them who were

27:02shepherding on down the chain. And quite frankly, if you really understand the structure that they

27:09developed, this is the same structure that created the model that was carried forward by the new

27:15apostolic reformation for the apostles and prophets that are untouchable. They're at the top, the people

27:21are at the bottom, and there's an authoritarian structure that exists. So my point in bringing

27:28all of this up is there was a culture that was designed to cover things up. And the leadership

27:35were participating, some of them knowingly, some of them unknowingly, in the cover-up culture. And the

27:41people, by and large, had no idea what's going on. And things underneath, behind the closed doors,

27:48there were things happening that had they known, many of the people would have fled each one of

27:54these movements that I'm talking about. Now, did the movements evolve into something healthy? Maybe.

27:59I have not heard anything to suggest that Calvary Chapel is a cult today or that Vineyard Church is a

28:07cult

28:07today. But there was a milestone in history when the heroes that were being worshipped, and to some

28:14people are still worshipped today, the heroes apparently were covering things up. Have you ever

28:21wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism

28:26transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic

28:32reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

28:38william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John

28:45Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

28:52audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various people

28:59and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the

29:04podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to

29:11the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical

29:16Research, we want to thank you for your support.

29:19Chuck Smith used to say, Paul, if you don't use your gifts for the church more, the Lord's going to

29:29take them away from you. He's going to punish you. And he was more Pentecostal than I ever was.

29:35Chuck Smith?

29:36Yeah. Well, he was a supply pastor for the first four-square church in Phoenix. And so there was

29:45one of the sponsors of my meeting at Madison Square Garden, which was not the, you know,

29:51the main thing in New York, but this was what they called it in Phoenix. It was a wrestling arena

30:00and

30:01all that, a sports arena. And so we were filling that twice a day. And he was my worship leader.

30:10And

30:11then he became my campaign manager. As I mentioned before, I would be sharing some of the research,

30:17not all, but some that I have into Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, John Wimber, and the Vineyard

30:24Movement. Again, not to be critical of those movements as they exist today, but this intersection

30:29is very, very important and very critical. I can't yet share all of the facts, but I will say this,

30:37I have multiple researchers who are working with me that are sharing all sorts of facts about these

30:44people and these movements. Some of the people sharing the facts with me were, had a very, very

30:52negative experience in the movement. Not that the movement is the cause of it. It may or may not be,

30:57I don't know, but these people, they're broken. Like I am, they came from a situation that should have

31:03never existed. And it all goes back to this Moses model that's being created. This is a model that was

31:09carried forward. And it may not fully exist today, but there was a point in time in which it did.

31:16And we'll get into that in just a little bit. But I want to preface with this. I have a

31:21lot of people

31:22sharing a lot of facts. Some of those people are very upset at what happened to them. And I will

31:28not,

31:29I will not decrease or lessen their experience. Their experience is their experience. I won't try

31:36to cover up what they went through or the facts that they're sharing with me. But at the same time,

31:42I do want to qualify it. Some of the facts that are shared with me, I take with a grain

31:48of salt.

31:49The fact may look a certain way, but until we get all of the facts, it's not really something that

31:55you

31:55can say definite. You can just say, well, here are the facts, and it looks very bad.

32:00And I do have a lot of questions about some of those facts, which I'll get into that in just

32:04a

32:05minute. But the point I'm trying to make is this. If you have transparency, you don't have to try to

32:12rebuild biographies. And that's really what my website, my podcast is having to do. We're having

32:18to go back and rebuild the correct version of all these biographies because of the cover-up culture

32:24that exists. Many, many leaders, they try to cover up their past. And I understand talking about the

32:30good things. That makes sense. But when it's something that is so devastating that it impacts

32:37lives, there comes a point whenever later biographers, they really need to publish the

32:42critical facts. Because if you don't do this, history continues to repeat itself.

32:48So I'm going to get into some of that research. But the thing that I'll mention here, we just

32:53listened to a recording by Paul Kane. Paul Kane is describing how connected these movements are.

33:01And whether it's true or not, I have seen that there are arguments as to whether Paul Kane was lying

33:06through his teeth or not. I'm not to say. But what I can say is, some of the details that

33:12he has just

33:13mentioned about him working with Chuck Smith, some of those details are verified even by the newspapers.

33:19So I'm not going to say that he's fully correct. And Chuck Smith was that deeply connected to him,

33:24as he says, but he did say it. And that is a fact. So I can take that fact. And

33:30now I can combine

33:31it with other facts and paint a bigger picture. So let's think through that a bit. Say that Paul

33:37Kane is correct. And at minimum, we know that he is so connected with Chuck Smith that they've had

33:43a private encounter. Now enter Lonnie Frisbee into the equation. Lonnie Frisbee was part of what I

33:51mentioned before, this attempt to cover up homosexuality by some people. I have no evidence

33:58yet that Chuck Smith was covering it up. I think if you read any historical account,

34:04Chuck Smith cut him off the moment he found out. We just don't know what happened leading up to that

34:10moment. And that's for me, that's the question. That's a big question. What we do see is Chuck

34:16Smith Jr. There are reports out there, some of them in the news that talk about Chuck Smith found out

34:24that there was a six month relationship between two men, Lonnie Frisbee and another leader.

34:31And this had been going on for six months. And he went to John Wimber. And if you read the

34:38Wimber

34:38biographies, it says that Wimber found out and then cut him off. But if you read the report from the

34:46Chuck Smith Jr. angle, Chuck Smith found out that it had been going on for months, confronts John

34:53Wimber. And then John Wimber mentioned that he knew about it. And then later after that encounter,

34:58he cut it off. So I can tell you that there's a lot of gray in that. It's not so

35:03black and white

35:04as the biographies make it out. But the fact that the cover-up culture exists become a problem.

35:11The reason why this is important as it relates to the grand scheme of all of the research,

35:17Chuck Smith Jr. went on to finally separate himself. And I know that depending on which

35:23side you took of that debate, which I don't have a dog in the fight, depending on which side you

35:28took,

35:29he's either a hero or he's a villain, one or the other, because this was a big deal.

35:36One of the things that he mentioned as part of the reason why the separation happened was

35:42homosexuality. So that becomes a key milestone in history. That's a fact. Now we need to look at

35:49the other facts that are supportive. I had one researcher who sent me a lot of information.

35:55I've not even shared all of it yet. And in fact, I'm sharing some of it freshly in this podcast.

36:01But there was a statement made by Chuck Smith Jr. that led them down the path of researching and

36:09finding that there's a lot more curious history. I'll say it like that. Curious history that exists.

36:16And I'm sharing it because I'm sharing in transparency. I don't yet know what to make of it. And I

36:24would

36:24like for other people to weigh in. But this research, depending on which way it goes,

36:30it either paints everything in a different light, or it's just a side fact and the research means

36:37nothing. It's one or the other. But there was a statement made by Chuck Smith Jr. I think the year

36:44was 2010. And he uses the word partner when talking about two women. Now, when this was shared with me,

36:52I'm going to be fully transparent. I can't prove it either way. There's no way to prove homosexuality

37:00unless the person either admits it or gets caught in it. But I will say that in 2010, if you

37:06were talking

37:06about two ministers, both of the same sex, and you use the word partner, it raises a question that really

37:15can't be answered unless you just openly ask, what what did you mean by this? Now, I'm not going to

37:22ask,

37:23I'm not going, I'm just going to let that go. But there's a fact that I think paints a bigger

37:27picture of

37:28something that is unusual happening. And I'm going to share that research. I'm not trying to make one way

37:36or the other what this research means. But this is an example of one area of research that our

37:41researchers are going down. So, Chuck Smith Jr., he mentions that there are these two partners.

37:47And again, you probably would use pastor and co-pastor in that situation. I can't think of an

37:54example where if it was two men, I would not say that these two men who are living together in

38:00the

38:00same house under the same roof, behind the same closed doors, there are partners. I would never

38:06say this. I would say it was a pastor and a co-pastor. But he did use the word partner.

38:11And

38:11then what he says next is really what caused this researcher, I think, to go down the depth of

38:18research that they did. Of course, mom had many bright memories. God did plant good in her life.

38:25The brightest for her was knowing Jesus from a young age. Her love for Jesus was fed to her by

38:33her older sister, as Cheryl said, or Aunt Isi, who my dad described as a magical woman. Imagine my dad

38:40using a term like magical. But he said Isi was a magical woman because when she came, everything

38:48brightened up. She really was a source of hope for mom. And mom loved every visit and every

38:57conversation she had with her sister. My Aunt Isi, by the way, some Calvary Chapel pastors may not like

39:04this. She was the senior pastor of the First Horseswear Church in Phoenix, Arizona. And my dad adored

39:11her and felt that her partner, Mary Jane May, was a very gifted preacher and he enjoyed listening to

39:18her preach. Dirty little secrets of Calvary Chapel.

39:25So this particular researcher, whenever the statement was made and they heard this,

39:31they went down this long path of research because I'm going to say this very plainly for people who

39:38may be part of the movement and may see any research as negative. Whenever you're in a culture

39:46that potentially even has the hint of cover-up culture or even just a simple lack of transparency,

39:53when you hear a statement like that, if you have a critical mind like I do, you're going to go

39:58down

39:58the path of trying to figure out, well, what's what's going on behind this? That why would that statement

40:03be made? Well, that's exactly what this researcher did. And what they found out, it raises a lot of

40:10questions. I can't say that it gives any answers, but it raises some significant questions. The person that

40:16he is referring to, EC, was a nickname and EC was the head of the Arizona district for the Foursquare

40:25Church, which is the church that Chuck Smith began his ministry in. And throughout the course of all

40:32the research that they've shared with me, it appears based off of what I can see in this, that if

40:39not for

40:39EC, Chuck Smith may have had a different history in how he became a minister. He was trained in the

40:46Life

40:46Bible College, but he had a sister-in-law who was the head of the Arizona district. So the sister

40:53-in-law gave him

40:54a pulpit. He, you know, very quickly rose up through the ranks of the Foursquare Church. Had

41:01this not been his sister-in-law and had he not had that connection, would the entire Jesus movement

41:07have even existed? I don't know. It's hard to say what would have happened if a certain fact or

41:13certain piece of history did not exist. But what I can say is it looks very much like this was

41:19a

41:19significant person to Chuck Smith. The researcher also shared with me that this female pastor

41:28always had a parsonage for, I can't remember how many different people, but usually it was a

41:34assistant pastor or a co-pastor sharing the same parsonage, which is kind of unusual until you think

41:43about the way the Foursquare Church operated. Amy Simple McPherson was the head. She was a female

41:48minister. And so if you had a female minister as the head of the organization, would not you have

41:55female ministers in the churches? Yes, you would. Where it gets a little bit, I don't know,

42:01questionable for me is how do the parsonages work? That does seem a little bit odd. I'm trying to think

42:07of an example outside of Foursquare where say it's two male ministers. In what situation would you have

42:14two male ministers in the same parsonage? And not just one, but multiple of those. It seems odd to me.

42:23Most of the ministries that I'm familiar with, if that were a situation and you had a male minister,

42:30you may have a temporary second minister who's being trained or something like this,

42:35but they usually go out and they start their own church. Because the idea of a minister is that you

42:41become a minister so that you can plant a church, you can grow a congregation, and you can further

42:46the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't think of too many situations where two male ministers would stay

42:52in the same room and board. It's just odd to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is odd

42:59to me.

43:00Now, in the 1940 census, this researcher found that if you look at EC, she is the head of household.

43:08And then if you look at the lady who's living with her, it's listed as partner. And to the researcher,

43:16this was highly unusual. And to me, it is unusual. I had to do some digging to figure this out

43:24because

43:26that word partner in language of 2010, whenever it was said, yes, it had the connotation of homosexuality

43:34or lesbianism, but did it in 1940. That was my question. And what I found out actually raised more

43:42questions than gave answers. So I looked at the 1940 instructions for this word partner. And the 1940

43:51instructions told the enumerators, if two or more persons who are not related by blood or marriage

43:57share a common dwelling unit as partners, write head for one and partner for the other or others.

44:05So within the context of two women living in the same dwelling place, there was an enumeration,

44:12there was a relationship, and there was a code for using the word partner. So if you look at just

44:19that

44:19alone, that makes sense. And I can't say that there's anything wrong with that. However, there were

44:25other words that were used. And usually, from what I can tell from the research, and I am no expert

44:33by

44:33no means, but from what I can tell from researchers who are looking into 1940, partner was usually

44:40suggesting that they were some sort of a business relationship. Was the church a business? It could

44:47have been, I don't know. But there were other words that also could have been used. And from what I

44:52can

44:52tell just based off of the simplest statistics I've been able to find, the word partner was used so

44:58rarely, it was common, common to that situation. But in the grand scheme of all the relationships,

45:05partner was an unusual word. I'll say it like that. All of that said, the word partner doesn't

45:11necessarily mean homosexual. But what I did find that it raises a question, it doesn't answer it.

45:19When researchers want to go back in time, to a period in time in which homosexuals were all

45:26had to be under the closet, because the vast majority of people were against it,

45:32they look for the word partner in the census. Not that the word partner means homosexual,

45:39but that that's the only way that you can find people who are not husband and wife. That's why they

45:46do it.

45:46So from the researchers point of view, they went down the right path. That is exactly what you do.

45:53You look in the census, did they use the word partner? So to credit the researcher, that's

45:58that's perfectly legit. Again, it doesn't prove anything, though, because this is like I said,

46:04this is just a word. It means nothing. But for me, it's a fact. And it is important because through

46:12this

46:12fact, and through their research, I learned that Chuck Smith was his ministry was helped to be

46:19launched by a female who was the head of the one of the heads, I guess the primary head of

46:26the state

46:27of Arizona for the four square church. And she apparently planted the Phoenix church where Chuck

46:33Smith first began speaking or early began speaking, I should say. So this is a significant

46:40set of facts. Does it all mean and imply what the researcher is suggesting? No, not necessarily.

46:46But that's a fact. And that's an important fact. Here's why that research is so important to me.

46:52I can place William Branham in that exact church, that church where Chuck Smith is preaching,

46:58E.C. is preaching. E.C.'s name was Louise Webster. She went by the nickname E.C. And if I

47:04look to the

47:05transcripts of Branham sermons, I can find him in that church. Chuck Smith may have even been present.

47:10I don't know. But the point is this. The four square church was very accepting of William Branham.

47:17We have talked about that in our revival history series. If not for the four square church, Branhamism

47:23may not have existed. So there's some huge facts to combine here. But the point I'm trying to make is

47:31Branhamism created a model that was continued forward through time. It was the Moses model.

47:39Branham called it the Elijah model or different names for this. Basically, it's the manifested sons of God.

47:45But there's one figure that's manifestation is greater than the rest. In Branham's case,

47:50he claimed to be the manifested Elijah of the day. But it was the Moses model. The leaders were

47:57untouchable. They were anointed by God and touch not God's anointed. That was the framework that

48:03developed. There's another aspect, though, that I think is really significant for people to realize.

48:09Churches in Branhamism did not have a central governing authority. What they had instead was the Moses model,

48:18where each church was responsible for their own people. And if some problem happened within that

48:24church, you can never go to the leadership and say that it's their fault because they're disconnected

48:29as as governing bodies of the church. So every message church that's in the message cult,

48:37the group that I came out of, every one of them is independent. If you look at what has been

48:44set up,

48:45that model continued. And there are some significant flaws, in my opinion, with that model, because

48:53if you take away the governing structure, there's no accountability. Each church, if they have the

48:59Moses model, the Moseses, Moseses, if that's a word, they're all untouchable. And that came to a head

49:07in the year 2007. Newspapers and magazines called it a day of reckoning. And this is an important

49:15milestone in history that I don't think has been covered as much as it should have.

49:19Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, according to the newspaper reports, sometimes hired pastors who had

49:27been recently removed from their churches for misconduct and immorality. And it mentions an

49:33example. It says in 1992, the board of Calvary Church, Santa Ana, which is not affiliated with

49:39Calvary Chapel, removed its then prominent pastor, David Hawking, for having had an affair. Within three

49:46months, Chuck Smith hired him. This report goes on to talk about the abuses that were happening.

49:56Now, those abuses weren't directly tied to Chuck Smith, other than the fact that,

50:01you know, if this is correct, he hired somebody who he probably shouldn't have.

50:06But Chuck Smith talks about how he views the Moses model and why. And he distances himself from the

50:14problem. He's, like I mentioned with the Branham cult, he's at the head of the organization. The

50:19churches, they're responsible for themselves. They're not accountable to anyone. They're accountable

50:23only to God. And that's the way he phrased it. That separates responsibility,

50:30and it creates a situation where, A, cover-up culture can continue. B, it follows very closely

50:39the BITE model. If you're familiar with Dr. Stephen Hassan's BITE model of authoritarian control,

50:45this is a model that is used to determine, is a group a cult or not? And I want to

50:51qualify this

50:52statement. I don't believe that Calvary Chapel as a whole is a cult. But if you look at this one

50:58particular instance in time, and then look at one particular church in question, you can apply the

51:05BITE model straight down. Behavioral control. You find enforced submission to leaders as God's anointed.

51:12Information control. Not many people were aware that this was even going on. There was restricted

51:19access to financial info, apparently. Decision-making records, independent investigations.

51:27Simply put, if you read all of the newspaper articles and magazine articles that came out,

51:33both pro and con, you find that there was a lack of transparency, a general lack of transparency.

51:39And to the people who are sitting in the pews, this is control of information.

51:44The T in the BITE model, thought control. The phrase comes up in several newspaper articles,

51:51touch not God's anointed. And if you're questioning it, you have the rebellion like Korah,

51:57or you have a critical spirit. It always goes back to the spirit. That is a mechanism for thought control.

52:04And the emotional control, I think, is fairly obvious if you look at just simply the structure

52:10and the nature of what developed from latter rain. But there's a fear of being labeled rebellious.

52:16There's a guilt and shame if you're not quiet, if you're not compliant. There are phobias that

52:23are implanted and doctrinated into the movement. If you leave, you'll shipwreck your faith or ruin your

52:29family. Now, the newspapers did not go too deep with the emotional control, but they did describe

52:35some of what I just said. And from working with Dr. Stephen Hasson, the BITE model is not a definite,

52:42it's a cult, it's not a cult. It's a continuum that shows the level of cultic nature in a group.

52:49So you may be small on the scale, and you may be okay, or you may be very, very destructive

52:54and be

52:55just, you know, there's no question you're a cult. That's how the scale works. So I applied the scale

53:02to the church that had the abuse. That one instance that's been disbanded, there's not much more to say

53:09about it, other than the fact that for me, the most important part of this is that this is a

53:15significant

53:16milestone in history. And as I continue the research, this intersection in time between all of

53:23these figures, some of whom did go on to develop very destructive cults. Paul Cain. Look at what

53:30happened with Kansas City Fellowship, IHOP KC. Look how that relates to Bethel. Bethel's working

53:37directly with these people. This is a problem, but this is an intersection in history between

53:44different figures of different movements who all patterned themselves off of the revivals,

53:50which had the Moses model. So in one aspect, I can say the Moses model is the problem. However,

53:58it's not just the Moses model that creates the problem. If you have the Moses model where there

54:05is no accountability, there is no transparency, and you start to cover things up that might make

54:13people question your spiritual authority. For me, that is where the problem lies. And I can say that

54:21in this intersection in history, some of these groups developed into very healthy groups. At least

54:26I have no information that they did not. Others, however, they went down the wrong path. So I hope this

54:32gives you a view into my world. I've gone a little bit out of my usual, as I said I

54:39would, because this is

54:40a very serious subject for me. This is not something that my usual laughing, joking self that I put out

54:48in these podcasts. It's really not something that I should cover like that, because this is serious.

54:53This has developed into problems that have ruined lives of people, multiple people. You can listen to

55:00them on Friday. They talk about their stories and their experiences. And I'm not one to question those

55:07experiences. To them, that is a very real experience. Some of the people who have been contacting me

55:13won't even come on the podcast, but they talk about the very groups that I'm mentioning in this podcast,

55:19and they had a very, very negative experience. Each time I talk to somebody who has, it comes down to

55:27the Moses model and the cover-up culture. So for me, this is extremely serious, and it's not something

55:33that we should take lightly. So hopefully you can see a view into my world, all of the many things

55:39that I have to deal with, and understand that what I'm trying to do is not only correct the history

55:46that's been written incorrectly. I want to help people to understand why this is a problem, because

55:54there are many, many people who are hurt by this. So if you've enjoyed this research and this show,

56:00and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-brannum

56:04.org.

56:05For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

56:09from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

56:42For more information, you can find us at the top of the New Apostolic Reformation, and even if you've been

56:43done in a video, we'll see you in the next video.

56:48For more information, please visit us at the next video.

56:50For more information, please visit us at the next video.

56:53Please visit us at the next video, visit us at the next video.

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