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00:00Hello and welcome to Catching Up with the Royals, the show that never complains but always explains.
00:05With me, Richard Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:08On today's show, as the royal family face their biggest crisis in nearly 100 years,
00:13we'll be asking, what can they do to recover?
00:16Because on the one hand, this is a family drama played out on the most public of stages.
00:23Questions arising about who you want and when.
00:25These are probing questions that the institution doesn't really like to be probed.
00:30Some people have said that the king should stand aside.
00:32Plus, we'll be looking at what really goes on behind the scenes of the palace during a PR disaster.
00:37A lot of people are asking, why was Andrew protected for so long?
00:40I mean, anyone can identify, I think, with a mother and a favourite child.
00:43They said to me that Andrew is her Achilles heel.
00:45And exploring why Princess Diana's legacy could be the key to the monarchy's survival.
00:50Gen Z, see Princess Diana now as history.
00:52On TikTok, billions and billions and billions of views of Princess Diana.
00:56Could Princess Diana save the monarchy?
01:03Well, Richard, what a week.
01:06What a week.
01:07I wish you'd on the worst enemy, Emily.
01:09No, I know.
01:11So, it's been very, very fast moving since last Thursday when it was announced that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince
01:19Andrew, was arrested and taken to Aylsham Police Station in Norfolk.
01:24Aylsham.
01:25Aylsham.
01:26Aylsham Police Station.
01:27Something about that just doesn't compute.
01:29Well, do you know what?
01:31It's a police investigation centre and it is a really drab, modern, pedestrian building.
01:37Interesting. A long way from Buckingham Palace, Richard.
01:40Yeah. No footmen.
01:41No footmen.
01:42No corgis.
01:43No valets.
01:43Yeah.
01:44No.
01:45There's a lot happened.
01:46There's been a lot of fast moving developments in this story, as you would expect.
01:49I think the key thing really to remember, I suppose, is that now the palace have lost control.
01:54And the reason they've lost control, because this is a police investigation.
01:56So police have finished searching Royal Lodge in Windsor and indeed Wood Farm in Sandringham, where Andrew is now living.
02:05Former Royal Protection Officers, PPOs, Police Protection Officers have been asked to give statements to Thames Valley Police,
02:12who are leading this investigation into misconduct in a public office.
02:16Whereas other police forces around the country have been investigating the other element, which is the sex trafficking element,
02:26which pertains to planes coming into Stanstead or Hampshire.
02:32And then, of course, there's this move in the government to remove Andrew from the line of succession.
02:38Which is going to take an act of parliament, not just here, but in other Commonwealth nations as well.
02:42Absolutely.
02:43The king is monarch of the UK and 14 other realms.
02:47So to pass that piece of legislation to remove a member of the royal family from the line of succession,
02:52Andrew's currently eighth.
02:54Every realm has to agree for it to happen.
02:56In an organisation which is usually so highly organised and usually kind of on top of a situation,
03:03what's the atmosphere like when something like this happens?
03:06That's a really good question.
03:08I think initially what happened last week was, I think people were really shocked, actually.
03:14I mean, you and I, we did that emergency sort of catching up with the royals, didn't we,
03:19to catch up on that Thursday afternoon.
03:21And the mood in the palace was one of shock.
03:26Which, I guess, with the benefit of hindsight, you thought, well, hang on a sec, a lot had come out
03:31of the Epstein files.
03:33But I think there is that position, isn't there, that when something so ordinary and utilitarian as an arrest happens
03:40to a member of the royal family,
03:42this hasn't happened for 400 years.
03:44The last person, as we said, was Charles I.
03:46But then I think the mood after that was a bit one of recrimination.
03:53And a dangerous moment, perhaps, because you might feel you have to make a concession that your better judgment might
04:00suggest you shouldn't.
04:01You know, access to Buckingham Palace, questions arising about who knew what and when.
04:07These are probing questions.
04:09And the institution doesn't really like to be probed.
04:12No, the institution does not like to be probed.
04:16And I think that what we have seen here is over the last, I would say, over the last 15
04:24years,
04:25this has been going on since 2011, at least in the public consciousness,
04:30Buckingham Palace have always been, when I say Buckingham Palace, I mean the institution, have always been on the back
04:33foot.
04:34They have always been reacting.
04:36And I think that the strategy from senior courtiers over the last six to 12 months,
04:42where the kind of pressures really ramped up because the American Department of Justice said that they're going to release
04:47these files.
04:48And then indeed they did.
04:49And of course, no one really knew what was going to be inside, what was going to be revealed from
04:53these files.
04:54The strategy was to try and be a bit more proactive, which is why we had the King take those,
04:59make those, remove the titles from Andrew and kick him effectively out of Royal Lodge.
05:04And make those statements from Kensington Palace, from William and Catherine,
05:09saying that they had genuine concerns and also a statement from the King saying a couple of weeks back,
05:14saying that, of course, the institution would cooperate with the police.
05:18But I think that they've continually been on the back foot.
05:22And so I think if I were one of those very senior courtiers, the King's right hand man, Sir Clive
05:28Alderton,
05:30you would, if he hasn't, I'm sure he's a very, very smart guy.
05:33If you hadn't already, you'd be thinking, well, what can the monarchy possibly do?
05:36Because I know that some people have, on the one hand, some people have said,
05:41well, it's so lazy to say this is the, you know, the greatest crisis since the abdication.
05:46Of course it isn't. It's ridiculous. It's just one man's behaviour.
05:49Very, very serious crisis.
05:50Some people are saying it's the most serious crisis since the abdication.
05:54Other people say, poppycock, it's just one man and his actions.
05:57Poppycock.
05:58Poppycock. What do you think the palace, as an institution, can do now?
06:05What levers can they pull? Should, as some people say, the king be making a national address?
06:10I think it needs to get in front of it.
06:12I think it needs to concentrate on what the monarchy is going to look like in the future.
06:16Focus should be on William, I think. It's got to be leaner.
06:19It's got to be smaller.
06:21I think it needs to edit out the kind of grandeur of the past
06:24and start looking like it's something that's more fit for purpose in the 21st century.
06:28Some people have said that the king should stand aside
06:30and that we should have William and Catherine as king and queen now.
06:33Well, you've got a problem, haven't you?
06:33Because the whole point about the monarchy is that it doesn't react in that sort of way.
06:37They play a long game.
06:39And also they're not subject, in the way everybody else is,
06:41to the kind of rising and falling tides of public opinion.
06:45Except, of course, they are, as we're finding out in this moment.
06:47So I don't know. It's very uncertain.
06:48And that's what they don't like, is uncertain.
06:50No, they don't like uncertainty and they don't like transparency.
06:53Because I think there are some, there are a lot of people saying,
06:55well, what did Buckingham Palace know?
06:57Tell us what you know.
06:58Pour that disinfectant throughout and tell us what you knew and what you did.
07:02But we don't even know whether in 2011, in 2019,
07:07when the Newsnight interview, in 2022, when that settlement with Virginia,
07:11what was, what was done?
07:13And of course, we should repeat that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor denies all wrongdoing.
07:17Well, I've got a question for you.
07:19Well, actually, it's a question for everyone watching.
07:21This week marks 20 years since the then Prince Charles announces engagement to Diana Spencer.
07:26But how many times have the couple met before they decided to get married?
07:31Answer coming up.
07:37Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
07:39And don't forget, you can catch up with us every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
07:43Or tune in to five on Saturday and get it in lovely telly world.
07:48Now, I left you with a question, didn't I?
07:51How many times had Prince Charles, as he was then, Lady Diana Spencer met before they got engaged?
07:57Well, the answer is 13, which doesn't seem like very many, does it?
08:00No.
08:01Their families had known each other for some time.
08:04And obviously, Diana's grandmother was the right-hand lady for the Queen Mother.
08:10But they had only met 13 times.
08:14Because, of course, Charles was dating Diana's older sister.
08:16Yeah.
08:17Interesting.
08:17Diana Spencer actually grew up at Sandringham.
08:19And only moved to Althorpe in Northamptonshire when her father succeeded his father.
08:25So they were around each other a lot.
08:26Neighbours.
08:27But now, listen, somebody else, somebody not seen at Sandringham for a long time, not seen anywhere.
08:31Sarah Ferguson.
08:32What's the latest, Emily, on what's happening with her?
08:36Well, she, I think ever since October, November last year, when the Epstein files started dropping from America,
08:44she hasn't been seen in public.
08:45She went to Beatrice's daughter, daughter little baby Athena's christening in St. James's palace December last year.
08:55But I thought it was noticed, notable that neither Andrew or Fergie were pictured going into St. James's for private
09:02christening.
09:02I think since then, she has been sofa surfing, as one of the newspapers called it.
09:08Staying with friends, wealthy friends, I'm sure, because she also has left Royal Lodge.
09:16There were some reports that she'd been driven into Royal Lodge to get her possessions lying down on the back
09:21of a car so she wouldn't be seen by the photographers outside.
09:27But where's she taking them?
09:28Where are her possessions going?
09:30That's a really good question.
09:32I think a lot of stuff has gone...
09:33No fixed abode.
09:34No fixed abode.
09:35I think they've gone into storage.
09:37There's a suggestion that neither of Beatrice or Eugenie want her to go and stay with them because of the
09:42press attention, I think.
09:44One place where she has been publicly staying, because she recorded a video about it, is a Paracelsus, I think
09:53that's how you pronounce it,
09:54at the Paracelsus Recovery Clinic in Zurich.
09:57Cheap at the price, Richard, of £13,000 a day to stay there.
10:02She's been there for a month.
10:04£13,000 a day.
10:07You can't be serious.
10:09I'm absolutely serious.
10:11I don't expect that she will have paid for this, though.
10:14Do you?
10:14Right.
10:14Well, I don't know.
10:15I just wonder what's her value as an endorser of your product.
10:18Perhaps not so great this week.
10:19Well, she has stayed at the Paracelsus before.
10:23It prides itself.
10:24Well, we're talking about it, I suppose.
10:25So maybe there is.
10:27Although I'm not sure that you or I are their market clientele, but maybe we are, Richard.
10:34If I paid £13,000 a day to feel better about myself, I'd feel worse about myself.
10:38Yeah.
10:38I know, if you're at the Paracelsus.
10:41She has stayed there before.
10:43I mean, it's a very high-end clinic where sort of, you know, the 0.001% go and stay
10:51and have everything done for you.
10:53And, of course, we know that Sarah does like luxury and to have people waiting on her hand and foot.
11:03She's in a pretty invidious position, isn't she?
11:05Because she's lost her home.
11:07She's lost her reputation.
11:08She's relying on the charity of her friends.
11:11I mean, I know a lot of people will say, well, she totally deserves it.
11:14She's put herself in this position.
11:16She's spent money like it's going out of fashion.
11:19But what do you think?
11:21I don't know.
11:22I mean, so much of this is dependent on stuff we don't yet know.
11:25And allegations can be made, but I'm not sure how reliably they can be stood up.
11:30Perhaps her personal habits were not always very attractive.
11:32But, again, it's very hard to...
11:35I don't want to rush to judgment about these things.
11:37But it's just very hard to see an outcome that isn't pretty grim.
11:40And, of course, it's important to remember she's denied any wrongdoing and has made no comment.
11:45I mean, I wonder if...
11:47It's been reported sightings in the Gulf, right?
11:50I wonder if you find some congenial place to live out your days in some desert land where these matters
11:57don't feel they touch you.
11:58I don't know.
11:59Well, now, listen.
12:00We've been getting some questions from viewers.
12:02This is from Maurice.
12:03People seem to forget that all of this Andrew drama has only come out after the late Queen died.
12:08Since then, millions of Epstein-related files have been released and changed our thoughts and opinions on both Andrew and
12:13Fergie.
12:14I don't think it's fair, says Maurice, to take out any frustrations on people like William or Kate.
12:19I personally think it's down to the late Queen giving in to Andrew and Charles not being strong enough.
12:26This saga has been going on for 15 years.
12:28It's not William.
12:29It's the older brigade.
12:31That's tricky, isn't it?
12:32That's a very interesting question from Maurice.
12:35I think on the one hand, there are those people who feel that the late Queen should have done more,
12:40could have done more, protected Andrew.
12:43And actually, as a courtier, in fact, a number of senior courtiers said to me at the time, not now,
12:48Richard, at the time, this is in 2013, 2014, they said to me that Andrew is her Achilles heel.
12:53So it's that, on the other side, there are many people who feel it's very unfair to blame the late
12:59Queen, that she was a mother doing what mothers do, protecting their children, and that actually she did react pretty
13:10brutally in 2019 after that Newsnight interview when she made him step back as a working royal.
13:16Also, she was instrumental with her then private secretary, Christopher Guite, in making him step back as UK trade ambassador
13:24in 2011.
13:26So there were others around her who were recognising this as potentially a weakness?
13:30Yes, others around her were recognising it as a weakness.
13:32I think some members of the family, of the royal family, perhaps feel that the late Queen could have done
13:39more because, unfortunately, as we said before the break,
13:44I think, potentially, this is going to be, the Andrew issue, is going to be the defining top line of
13:53the Carolean era.
13:55And, I know, get me, I know it's the posh name for King Charles, I had to look that one
14:00up.
14:01I feel very sorry, I think a lot of people feel very sorry for Charles and William and Camilla, the
14:06Queen and Princess Catherine,
14:07because, on the one hand, this is a family drama played out on the most public of stages,
14:15and this is, in some ways, nothing to do with Charles, Camilla, William and Catherine et al.,
14:20but, in other ways, it's everything to do with them.
14:22I mean, anyone can identify, I think, with a mother and a favourite child, right?
14:26You would do anything, wouldn't you, to protect them from, and also it's hard for you to admit that perhaps
14:30they're not
14:31in the world standing what they are in your standing.
14:33But, there's a real problem here, isn't there?
14:35Now, I can see how there would be an advantage, perhaps, in, if you could say, the fault lay in
14:39a previous reign,
14:41but the Queen banked so much goodwill for the monarchy that you wouldn't want to do anything which devalued that
14:47currency, right?
14:48Absolutely. I think it's such a tricky tightrope if the members of the family, or if the palace PR,
14:54have decided that they want to try and blame, in inverted commas, the late Queen,
14:58because she was, as a courtier once said to me, she's bomb-proof.
15:02At the end of her reign, because she'd reigned for so long with such devotion,
15:06it almost felt as if she was, you know, Dio Mandois, that's the motto of the royal family,
15:10it almost felt as if she wasn't just on the right of God, she was almost on the same level.
15:14And so, I think that it's very tricky to sort of blame the late Queen,
15:20because then if you do that, you're kind of casting aspersions on everything that she did.
15:23On the other hand, there is a lot of merit in that position,
15:29because if you, I don't, I mean, she was an amazing, amazing woman and an amazing monarch,
15:33but if you look at actually what some of the things she did,
15:36in 2011, when this story first kind of burst onto the front pages of the newspapers,
15:41with that interview with Virginia G. Frey,
15:43and that picture, infamous picture of Andrew with his hand round Virginia G. Frey's Roberts,
15:49as she was, bare waist.
15:51What did the late Queen do in the months after that, Richard?
15:56She made, she gave Andrew, her most favourite son,
16:00the highest honour that the monarch can possibly give.
16:04Business as usual.
16:05Yeah, well, not even business as usual.
16:07She made him a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order,
16:13which is the robes that you see on Garter Day,
16:15when he was, you know, sort of parading in the flummery.
16:18And that's reserved for the most senior of senior royals, isn't it?
16:21Absolutely.
16:22You don't even get it just by being a member of the royal family.
16:24It's the monarch's direct gift.
16:26So I think we have to ask ourselves,
16:29what was the culture within the institution that enabled Andrew to be protected?
16:37And of course, we must remember that Prince Andrew has denied any accusations of wrongdoing.
16:42That was a great question for Maurice,
16:44and we love to hear your questions or your comments.
16:47Please do email in to royals at spirit-studios.com
16:53and Richard and I will endeavour to answer all of your questions.
16:57And don't forget, if you're watching us on YouTube,
16:59please do hit subscribe to Catching Up The Royals
17:02to make sure that you are always caught up with the latest royal news.
17:08This one's just running and running, Emily.
17:11And I'm wondering, with your experience, what it's like,
17:12what is it like backstage at the Palace when a crisis like this hits?
17:16Well, they're actually pretty calm.
17:18I remember during when Harry and Meghan and the last kind of, I suppose,
17:23this is not, comparisons are invidious, Richard,
17:26and I'm not comparing what's happening with Andrew,
17:28but just the sort of the levers and the machinery when the crisis hits the Palace.
17:33I guess the last time this happened was in 2020,
17:35when Harry and Meghan announced that they were leaving.
17:38People remain very calm.
17:40Calmness is a highly prized temperament with those who work in the Palace and civil servants.
17:46If this hasn't been done already, and I really hope it has,
17:49but maybe it hasn't been done already,
17:51they will be going through all their own documentation,
17:54going through all their emails, who knew what when,
17:58members of staff, former members of staff, and also I think...
18:01An internal inquiry.
18:02An internal inquiry.
18:03Briefing notes for the principals, William, Prince of Wales,
18:07and obviously King Charles.
18:08The King and Prince William will also be involved in meetings
18:11to discuss the strategy going forward.
18:14What can they do?
18:15But I do think,
18:17and I know that Prince William has already looked at all of this.
18:20I mean, he's told us this in his own words,
18:22but not pertaining to, obviously, the Andrew Mountbatten story.
18:26But I think that they need to look at the culture.
18:28So why was Andrew protected?
18:32A lot of people are asking,
18:34why was Andrew protected for so long?
18:35Why were young women waved into Buckingham Palace or Windsor Castle
18:40without proper logged in security?
18:43Apparently, Andrew would say,
18:45Mrs Windsor's arriving, can you just show her in?
18:48Mrs Windsor.
18:48Mrs Windsor.
18:49There's now allegations from former government ministers,
18:54from the coalition.
18:55So I think that the Palace, if they haven't done so already,
18:58have to have their own internal inquiry.
18:59Whether we will ever learn what the results of that are, Richard,
19:03I doubt it, because, of course,
19:06there was an internal inquiry into staff bullying
19:09by the Duchess of Sussex.
19:11That was never, ever, those allegations were never released.
19:15It's interesting about why didn't they ask the questions,
19:17because the questions hadn't quite formed.
19:19I was reading up about Pitch at the Palace.
19:21I was at Pitch at the Palace
19:22through my involvement with the University of Northampton.
19:25Remind us when that was.
19:26That was 2014, I think.
19:29Now, I don't remember, I went there because University of Northampton
19:33puts a lot of investment in getting our students out
19:35into entrepreneurial roles and stuff.
19:37So it was exactly the kind of thing that we were interested in doing.
19:39I don't remember having anything really of substance in my mind,
19:44any particular concerns about Prince Andrew.
19:47And I assumed, as he was then,
19:49I assumed that all this stuff that subsequently came out
19:51had not yet come out.
19:52But when I look at the dates, actually,
19:54there had been discussion about it before then.
19:56But for some reason, that just,
19:57I didn't even know that Prince Andrew was involved with it,
19:59I think, we just went there and he made a speech.
20:01Actually, rather a good speech.
20:02It sort of surprised me that it was a good speech.
20:05But I think perhaps that tells you
20:07that we hadn't yet reached critical mass
20:09with our concerns about Prince Andrew.
20:11They hadn't quite reached that point
20:13where all of a sudden you start thinking,
20:15why is this happening?
20:16I think that the Me Too movement in 2020-21 as well
20:21has had quite a big effect on people's attitude.
20:24When that interview was first published in 2011 with Virginia,
20:27I think that's such a good point you make
20:29about Pitchett Palace and how people felt
20:31because I don't think it really permeated
20:33the public consciousness.
20:34Yes, there have been newspaper reports,
20:36but there was still that feeling
20:37that monarchy could do no wrong.
20:39And surely it can't be right.
20:40Surely a member of the royal family
20:42couldn't be guilty of this.
20:43I think maybe there was some concern
20:45about Prince Andrew,
20:46but it was outweighed by the significance of the event.
20:49And it was only really after the interview
20:51with Emily Maitlis
20:52that all of a sudden you thought,
20:53oh gosh, this is really bad.
20:55Yeah, and as a courtier said to me,
20:57I mean, was the late Queen expected
20:59to go through every email that her son was sending?
21:02And I'm sure, were she still to be alive,
21:04she would be devastated.
21:06And also, would people have perhaps wanted to protect her
21:10from perhaps one of the less savoury aspects
21:13of alleged behaviour of his part?
21:15I don't know.
21:16Richard.
21:16Yes.
21:17We're going to bring a little bit more levity in.
21:19And so we're going to talk about
21:21our beautiful Princess of Wales.
21:22So I have a question for you
21:25about when she was still Kate Middleton.
21:29When William Wales and Kate Middleton
21:33were studying at St Andrew's University,
21:35do you know what they studied as their degree?
21:40I think I do.
21:42Well, tell me after the break.
21:50Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
21:52You can listen to a new episode every Thursday
21:54wherever you get your podcasts.
21:55You can see us on five every Saturday
21:58and there's always our YouTube channel,
22:01Catching Up With The Royals.
22:02Don't forget to subscribe.
22:04So, Richard.
22:06Hello.
22:06Hello.
22:07Degrees.
22:08Do you know what Kate and William studies?
22:09I think I do
22:11because I think they did
22:12it's one of the like posh people degrees
22:13which I think was art history.
22:15You're absolutely right.
22:17But there's a catch.
22:19So both of them started off studying art history
22:21and Kate Catherine,
22:24Princess Catherine as we call her now,
22:26graduated with a Master of Arts,
22:27an MA from like a posh person that she is.
22:31But William switched.
22:34He almost left St Andrew's
22:35because he felt it maybe wasn't the right course
22:38and he was, Kate was one of the people
22:40who convinced him to stay
22:40but he switched to geography.
22:42So he actually graduated with a geography degree.
22:44Oh, from art history to geography.
22:45That's interesting.
22:46I suppose if you are, I mean,
22:49the Royal Picture Collection
22:50gives you plenty of homework to be getting on with
22:52or perhaps a little bit too much.
22:53Definitely.
22:54William and Catherine,
22:55they have been keeping calm
22:57and carrying on this week.
22:59We've seen quite a bit of them.
23:00They were at the BAFTAs last Sunday.
23:03Catherine went to watch England be smashed
23:06in the rugby at Twickenham.
23:09The Prince of Wales has been out and about.
23:13And there's a new book by a friend of mine,
23:17Russell Myers.
23:18He has written a new book.
23:19Official or unofficial?
23:21Unofficial.
23:22Okay.
23:23Unofficial.
23:24He didn't interview William and Catherine
23:25but I think he did interview quite a few courtiers
23:29to try and get the ultimate
23:32and the intimate inside story.
23:34When that happens,
23:36how arranged is it?
23:38I mean, so the interview courtiers
23:39are famously like clams, aren't they?
23:41Unless they are at liberty not to be.
23:44Well, everybody signs an NDA.
23:46It's standard practice now
23:48at all the Royal Palaces
23:49for everyone to sign non-disclosure agreements.
23:52I think, so to answer your excellent question
23:56as to why someone would speak,
23:58I think you have to ask yourself
24:01what is their personal agenda.
24:02So it might be that
24:05they probably speak on conditions of anonymity.
24:09I don't think Russell had
24:10anyone quoted per se in the book
24:13but if you look at the acknowledgements,
24:15he has thanked,
24:17he has thanked quite a few people
24:19including Simon Case,
24:21the former Cabinet Secretary
24:22and the Prince of Wales'
24:24former Private Secretary.
24:26He's thanked Jason Knauf
24:27who was William and Catherine's
24:31and indeed Harry and Meghan's
24:32Communications Secretary
24:33and is now Chief Executive
24:35of the Earthshot Prize.
24:36So there's quite a lot of few people named
24:38and I guess why would those people speak?
24:41Well, I think to maybe clarify things
24:50to further the Royal PR.
24:56Well, I wonder if it's kind of like
24:58soft power rather than hard power, yeah?
25:00I think that when books are written
25:03about the Royal Family
25:06and I think Jonathan Dimbleby
25:10did an official biography
25:12of Prince Charles
25:14but I'm sure I'll be corrected.
25:16I'm probably wrong.
25:17To my mind,
25:19that's the only official biography
25:23that was done obviously
25:24with Charles's,
25:25the then Prince of Wales' input.
25:28There's never been a book
25:29on William or Catherine
25:30that's been done
25:32with their official input
25:34and I know everybody
25:36has always tried to,
25:38for instance,
25:38talk to Catherine's family
25:39and wants to try and talk
25:40to the Middletons.
25:41I think the only person
25:42who's ever talked unofficially
25:44is Gary Goldsmith.
25:45The story is that,
25:46what I heard was that
25:47the now Princess of Wales
25:49was slightly hesitant
25:50before taking on that title
25:52though it came with the job,
25:53I guess.
25:54What was the reason for that?
25:56I think she felt,
25:57and that's absolutely correct
26:00and we were told at the time
26:02in 2022
26:02and actually I was told
26:04before 2022
26:07when, you know,
26:08the Queen was in her 90s
26:10and so it was going to happen
26:11that William would become
26:13iconic Prince of Wales,
26:16Princess Diana.
26:17Yeah.
26:18And I think when so much
26:20has been written
26:20about one woman
26:22and so much has been,
26:23I think because she died so young,
26:25she was 37, I think,
26:27and so much was written
26:30about her
26:30and I think it was
26:32quite terrifying
26:34to have to take on
26:38all of that historical hinterland
26:41and when she did become
26:45Princess of Wales,
26:46we were briefed
26:47that she would do it
26:49in her way.
26:51Of course.
26:52Because I think
26:53she was just very worried,
26:54Catherine was just worried
26:55about the expectations
26:57and I think she puts a lot,
26:59she does put a lot of pressure
27:00on herself, Catherine.
27:02Of course, Catherine could have said
27:04I don't want to be
27:05the Princess of Wales.
27:05Of course, Camilla
27:07could have been
27:08the Princess of Wales.
27:09She was married
27:10to the Prince of Wales.
27:11Of course, she wasn't.
27:12She was the Duchess of Cornwall.
27:14Catherine could have stayed
27:15the Duchess of Cambridge.
27:16She could have been
27:17the Prince of Wales
27:18and the Duchess of Cambridge.
27:19She stopped being
27:20the Duchess of Cambridge
27:21when she became
27:21the Princess of Wales.
27:22No.
27:23So she's got that
27:23in the bag, as it were.
27:25She's got that in the bag.
27:26How do you think she's doing?
27:27I think she's done
27:28a pretty good job, actually.
27:29I mean, I think she's not
27:30like her mother-in-law
27:31but she's respectful
27:32of her mother-in-law's
27:34inheritance, I would say.
27:35But I think she's managed
27:36to do pretty much
27:37her own thing
27:38and she's been very calm
27:39and confident
27:39or appeared to be
27:40calm and confident
27:41and steady.
27:42It's a tough gig.
27:43I think she's made
27:44quite a good job of it so far.
27:45What do you think?
27:46I agree.
27:47She hasn't put
27:48a sort of caught
27:49a high-heeled
27:50caught shoe wrong, really.
27:52And I think what we were
27:53talking about
27:53before the break
27:54when we were talking about
27:56what next for the royal family
27:59what can they do
28:00surely a big part of that
28:02is the Princess of Wales.
28:04Yeah.
28:05I like the way that
28:06also her kind of commitment
28:08to family life
28:09that's front and centre
28:10that's good.
28:10I think she handled
28:11the whole business
28:12over her cancer diagnosis.
28:14I thought that was done
28:15very well too.
28:16So I think she's making
28:19a good
28:19kind of good impression
28:21and you can
28:22you can see that
28:23she is evolving
28:24into
28:25into the role.
28:26I've never met her
28:27I don't think.
28:27You have I think
28:28Emily.
28:29Yes.
28:30Many times.
28:31I think one
28:32of
28:33the great things
28:34about Catherine
28:36is that you don't know
28:37what she's thinking.
28:38You do when you're
28:39chatting to her
28:40off
28:40you know
28:41off the record
28:42and these meetings
28:43that you know
28:44like when I've been
28:45invited to Kensington Palace
28:46for drinks
28:47or when we're
28:47on an aeroplane together
28:48or when we're
28:49in a
28:50you know
28:51on a royal tour
28:52when you're chatting
28:52to them
28:53she and I are the same age
28:55it is like
28:56just chatting to
28:57to you know
28:58someone
28:59you know
29:00it's not quite like
29:01chatting to one of my mum
29:02friends
29:02but obviously
29:03we're kind of
29:03we've got kids
29:04the same age
29:05and so we've chatted
29:06about our kids
29:06we chatted about
29:07hairstyles
29:08I mean I remember
29:09once complimenting
29:10her on her hair
29:11and she was like
29:11oh do you think
29:12I was
29:13I was really worried
29:14about it
29:14she had a new
29:14fringe cut
29:15Charlotte
29:16just after
29:16Charlotte had been born
29:17I mean she
29:18she has the same
29:19she has the same
29:21kind of insecurities
29:22quite endearingly
29:23as as
29:23as the rest of us
29:24and she's got a
29:25cracking sense of humour
29:26Richard
29:27she's got quite a
29:28naughty sense of humour
29:29which you don't see
29:30in public
29:32and I think that's
29:33either that's a curation
29:35from her
29:35I don't think it is a curation
29:37I don't think
29:37she's decided
29:38to put this
29:39kind of game face on
29:41I think she's actually
29:42quite shy
29:43she finds the public
29:45facing bits of the job
29:46or has done in the past
29:47really quite tricky
29:49I mean when the
29:50Duchess of Sussex
29:51was on the scene
29:52and she was so good at it
29:53so there were
29:54comparisons drawn
29:56about how Kate
29:57wasn't as good etc
29:58but I think it's
29:59a misunderstanding
30:00of the personality
30:01of both women
30:02I was told a long time ago
30:05that Catherine
30:06married William
30:07in spite
30:08of the job
30:09in the same way
30:11that she was nervous
30:12about taking on
30:13the mantle
30:13of Princess of Wales
30:15she does
30:17feel the pressure
30:18but I think
30:19she has
30:19really grown into it
30:21and I think that
30:21ability of her
30:23not to tell us
30:24what she's thinking
30:25and to sort of
30:26always
30:27appear as if
30:28she's keeping calm
30:29I bet she's not inside
30:30is actually
30:31quite important
30:33so Emily
30:34Prince William also
30:35there's been some
30:35comment about
30:36he was on the radio
30:37on Radio 1
30:39last week
30:40talking about
30:41his mental health
30:42I take a long time
30:43trying to understand
30:44my emotions
30:44and why I feel like I do
30:45and I feel that's
30:46a really important process
30:47every now and again
30:48to check in with yourself
30:48and work out
30:49why you're feeling
30:50like you do
30:51some people thought
30:52that that sounded
30:53a bit cloth-eared
30:55or a bit tin-eared
30:57considering the agro
30:58he's had in his own
30:59family life
30:59with his brother
31:00what do you think
31:01I thought that was
31:02really interesting
31:03because on the one hand
31:04it's great
31:05mental health has always
31:06been something
31:07that he and Harry
31:08and Catherine
31:09have spoken a lot
31:10about
31:10Heads Together
31:11famously
31:11they launched
31:12he had some really
31:13good parenting
31:14advice actually
31:16he said on the Radio 1
31:17this men's mental health
31:19that how you know
31:20as a parent
31:21you always try
31:23and want to fix
31:23things for your kids
31:24and often you just can't
31:25and listening is the
31:26most important thing
31:26but you're right
31:27a lot of people
31:28have criticised William
31:29and said
31:29hang on a sec
31:30you're talking about
31:32mental health
31:32and but yet
31:34you haven't
31:38been able
31:39to make up
31:40with your brother
31:40you haven't been able
31:42and your brother's
31:43talked about
31:43his mental health
31:44and how it's affected him
31:45and how being
31:46an institution
31:46affected him
31:47and yet you've
31:48cut off your brother
31:49for talking about
31:51his mental health
31:52but what's interesting
31:53here is that
31:53it's that younger people
31:55in that kind of
31:56crucial 18 to 36
31:57year old age group
31:58is that Gen Z
31:58it is Gen Z
32:00it's interesting
32:01that Prince
32:01the Prince of Wales
32:02choose to go on
32:03Radio 1
32:03which is kind of
32:04like his natural habitat
32:05you can do that
32:05without looking like
32:06he's a fish out of water
32:07but it's precisely
32:09that listenership
32:10which might struggle
32:11to understand
32:11how you can speak
32:12so openly about
32:13the importance
32:14of mental health
32:15and at the same time
32:15seem to have such
32:16an unworked relationship
32:18with your own brother
32:19but that's not unusual
32:19is it
32:20family dramas
32:21their family dramas
32:22though
32:22are like
32:23kind of
32:23in Technicolor
32:25and Panavision
32:25aren't they
32:26it must be so hard
32:28to
32:29for every
32:30different facet
32:31of royal life
32:34when the private
32:36has to
32:37is played out
32:37on such a public stage
32:39and maybe for
32:40William's own mental health
32:41I mean I don't want
32:42to obviously speak
32:43Prince William
32:43can speak for himself
32:44but maybe for his own
32:45mental health
32:46he's had to take that decision
32:47to cut his brother off
32:49because there was so much
32:50else that he was dealing with
32:52his wife's cancer diagnosis
32:53his father
32:54trying to deal with
32:55the whole Andrew Mountbatten
32:56Windsor threat
32:57to the institution
32:57that maybe it was just
32:59one more
33:00the Harry issue
33:01was just one more thing
33:02that he just can't deal with
33:03and it ain't over
33:04till the fat lady sings
33:05to use a slightly
33:06inelegant phrase
33:07tell you one thing
33:07about Gen Z though
33:08they love Princess Diana
33:09do they?
33:10well I just saw some figures
33:12that apparently
33:12on TikTok
33:13billions and billions
33:15and billions of views
33:16of Princess Diana
33:17material
33:17from people who weren't
33:19born when she
33:20when she was alive
33:21what's that about
33:22do you think?
33:23is it because
33:24Gen Z
33:25see Princess Diana
33:26now as history?
33:28oh
33:29that makes me feel
33:30very old Richard
33:31tell me about it
33:32I'm not going to
33:33let's not either of us
33:35ask how
33:36let's not either of us
33:37have to give away
33:38our ages
33:38but we both feel very old
33:39because of course
33:40we both remember
33:40where we were
33:41when Princess Diana died
33:42and all that kind of thing
33:44well I should think
33:44what people are interested in
33:46are the kind of
33:47well it was the hospital visits
33:49it was that part of her
33:50it was the princess
33:51or the queen of hearts
33:52version of Diana
33:53that was the one
33:54that seems to be getting
33:54the traction
33:55that's what they're looking at
33:57maybe in that
33:59that's the future
34:00for the monarchy
34:00that you can try to
34:01kind of work up
34:02that stuff
34:03and again restore
34:04interest and trust
34:05in the institution
34:05for the generations to come
34:07could Princess Diana
34:09save the monarchy
34:10in the 2020s?
34:11I wonder why
34:12do you think we need
34:13somebody like that
34:14in our public lives?
34:15that's so interesting
34:16and that maybe speaks
34:18to the fact
34:19that perhaps
34:21the age of deference
34:22is over
34:22and that people view
34:24the royal family
34:26in a much less
34:28deferential way now
34:29but if those pictures
34:31of Princess Diana
34:32kind of talking
34:34to AIDS victims
34:36talking to people
34:38who've lost limbs
34:38in you know
34:40Angola landmines
34:41that kind of
34:43common touch
34:44to use a much
34:45vaunted phrase
34:46if that's the
34:48the shorts
34:49to use the
34:50the Gen Z expression
34:51if that's the video shorts
34:52that are getting traction
34:53that's really interesting
34:54because it
34:55sort of speaks
34:56to an opinion of royalty
34:57that is quite enduring then
34:59and that can be
35:00that leverage
35:01can be very valuable
35:01for example
35:02did you know
35:04this is a question right
35:05it's been nearly two years
35:06since Catherine
35:07revealed she'd been
35:08diagnosed with cancer
35:09following her
35:10the announcement
35:10the NHS said visits
35:11to their cancer
35:12information pages
35:13increased by what percentage
35:15you'll tell me
35:17after the break
35:23welcome back to
35:24Catching Up with the Royals
35:25we left you with a question
35:26which was
35:26by what percentage
35:27did inquiries
35:28to cancer support
35:30information lines
35:31increase
35:31after Catherine
35:33Princess Wells
35:33announced her cancer diagnosis
35:35the answer
35:37373%
35:38wow
35:39now that's great
35:39isn't it
35:40that you can
35:41so focus people's attention
35:42that they'll make that call
35:43because that could save people
35:44a lot of heartache
35:45down the line
35:46and that's why the King
35:47I think wanted to be
35:48so open with his cancer diagnosis
35:51we don't obviously
35:52we still don't know
35:53what Catherine
35:54and the King
35:55what type of cancer it was
35:57but regardless
35:58every time
35:59there was
36:00even on their kind of
36:02trajectory
36:02when they told us
36:03when Catherine told us
36:04she was in remission
36:05and then she was
36:05clear of cancer
36:07every time that happened
36:08there was a huge uptick
36:10in people
36:10getting checked
36:11reporting
36:12various different types
36:13of cancer
36:13which is brilliant
36:14that's really good
36:15it's an old thing
36:16isn't it
36:16imagine having your
36:17personal health
36:19private details
36:20sort of
36:21typed up
36:22and stuck on the railings
36:24of Buckingham Palace
36:24how do the royals
36:27what's health care
36:28if you're a royal like
36:29there is a position
36:30which is physician
36:31to the monarch
36:32and at the moment
36:33it's held by
36:34Dr Michael Dixon
36:35he was appointed
36:37by the king himself
36:38a personal appointment
36:39a personal appointment
36:40it's a personal appointment
36:41by the monarch
36:42and whenever you're
36:44on a royal tour
36:44and certainly
36:45when I've done royal tours
36:46with Charles and Camilla
36:47there's always been
36:48a doctor in attendance
36:49he or she
36:50normally he
36:51has come everywhere
36:52with us
36:53don't they travel
36:54with their blood group
36:56as well
36:56they're like blood bags
36:57with their right blood group
36:58yes
36:59or the ambassador
37:00the embassy
37:01of wherever
37:02we'd be visiting
37:03make sure
37:03that all of that
37:04is ready
37:04just in case
37:05in the same way
37:06as we always have to
37:07carry black ties
37:07or black suits
37:08with us
37:08just in case
37:09but I think
37:11that the position
37:13of physician
37:14to the monarch
37:15is obviously
37:15a personal appointment
37:18because Dr Michael Dixon
37:19is very aligned
37:23to Charles'
37:25interests
37:26in homeopathic remedies
37:29oh right
37:30so alternative remedies
37:32would be
37:33one of the reasons
37:34perhaps why
37:34he's got that gig
37:35yes
37:36and the king himself
37:38is very interested
37:39in herbalism
37:40and I think
37:42faith healing
37:43and I was wondering
37:44Richard
37:44if
37:45sorry I hope you don't mind
37:46me asking
37:46as a former vicar
37:48what
37:48so herbalism
37:49obviously
37:50is using
37:51nature's
37:52natural medicines
37:53and actually
37:53even in kind of
37:54pharmaceutical medicine
37:55a lot of stuff
37:55I am not a scientist
37:57by the way
37:57but I understand
37:58that in pharmaceutical
37:59medicine
37:59a lot of stuff
38:00does come
38:00obviously
38:01from what's
38:02grown in the earth
38:03but herbalism
38:04is a particular
38:05distilled type of this
38:06but faith healing
38:08that's something
38:08that the king's
38:09very interested in
38:09what is that?
38:10Well some religious
38:11traditions
38:11it's very kind of
38:12you know
38:13you will literally
38:14pray for remedy
38:15or healing
38:16or for any
38:17particular ailment
38:17or disease
38:19in other traditions
38:20it's more general
38:20than that
38:21you just pray
38:21for someone's
38:22well-being
38:22and health
38:23I guess
38:24and there is
38:25some evidence
38:25that how the patient
38:26feels
38:27can have a big
38:28influence on
38:28their clinical
38:30performance
38:30the placebo
38:32effect
38:33so I think
38:34I don't think
38:35there's anything
38:35in it which is
38:36necessarily harmful
38:37I don't know
38:37No I agree
38:38GPs have said to me
38:39as GP friends
38:40of mine have said
38:42that psychosomatic
38:43how you feel
38:45about your
38:46illness
38:47or diagnosis
38:48or whatever it is
38:49has a really
38:50important part
38:51to play
38:51and how quickly
38:52you get better
38:53but I would say
38:54I probably think
38:54it ill-advised
38:55to stand on one leg
38:56and pray to Osiris
38:58rather than get
38:59chemotherapy
38:59for example
39:00so this has to be
39:01kind of sensibly done
39:03Yeah absolutely
39:05and obviously
39:06the royals
39:06can use the NHS
39:08of course they can
39:09like you or I
39:10they can use the NHS
39:10and in fact
39:11the Duchess of Edinburgh
39:12Sophie
39:13had both of her children
39:14on the NHS
39:16at Frimley Park Hospital
39:17she went to Frimley Park
39:18because it was the nearest
39:18to her home
39:19and actually Lady Louise
39:21Sophie and Edward's
39:22daughter
39:23did nearly die
39:24so that was
39:25it was such an emergency
39:26and she had such good care
39:27at Frimley Park
39:28that's why she went back
39:28and had her son James
39:31but of course
39:32It's puzzled me a little bit
39:33because it's often said
39:34isn't it
39:34that private healthcare
39:37private hospitals
39:38where you might go
39:38if you're a person
39:39of that importance
39:39are fine for some things
39:41but not for others
39:41and if you had a medical crisis
39:43you'd want to be
39:43in a general hospital
39:44wouldn't you
39:45in a place where there was
39:46enough medical expertise
39:47to give you what you needed
39:48Sort of prearranged things
39:50like operations
39:52the royals do use
39:53private healthcare
39:54for instance
39:54the King and Princess
39:55of Wales
39:56in 2024
39:58in January
39:59they both went
40:00to the London Clinic
40:00for a prostate operation
40:02for Charles
40:03and for abdominal surgery
40:04for Catherine
40:05and then of course
40:06subsequently both of them
40:07were then found
40:08to have cancer
40:10and of course
40:10Kate went to the Royal Marsden
40:11to have her cancer treatment
40:13so there is a combination
40:17often used
40:18of NHS and private
40:19and of course
40:20I remember
40:22when Princess Diana
40:23was pregnant with William
40:25whenever she went anywhere
40:26the kind of head
40:28obs and gynae consultant
40:29in wherever that was
40:30was kind of put on alert
40:32because obviously
40:33if something were to happen
40:35you'd need to have
40:36the best expertise
40:37immediately available
40:38right?
40:38they do get
40:39fantastic healthcare
40:40they do
40:41and
40:41no queuing in A&E
40:42no queuing in A&E
40:44for them
40:44absolutely not
40:45and they can choose
40:46where they
40:47if it's something
40:49prearranged
40:49I mean I know
40:50babies come when they want
40:51but a birth
40:52or an operation
40:54or something like that
40:56obviously that can be scheduled
40:57then they can have
40:58the very best
41:00and I think also
41:01I think that
41:02doctors
41:04you know
41:04actually
41:06in Tudor times
41:07as much as modern times
41:08doctors act as
41:11psychologists
41:13psychiatrists
41:13counsellors
41:14I mean it is an intimate
41:15sometimes literally
41:16an intimate relationship
41:17isn't it
41:17with a medic
41:18absolutely
41:19so you want to have
41:20someone that you
41:21get on with
41:22and that you form
41:22a relationship with
41:24and I think that
41:25I know
41:26that
41:27certainly
41:28among the younger
41:29members of the royal family
41:30many of them
41:31have had
41:31sort of counselling
41:33and sort of had
41:34you know
41:35help with mental health issues
41:37and obviously you want
41:38always to be
41:38with the same person
41:40I should say though
41:41that obviously
41:42when it comes to the health
41:43of the royal family
41:45there are
41:46certain
41:47guidelines
41:48by which
41:49all broadcasters
41:50newspapers
41:50print
41:51have to abide by
41:52which we have to abide by
41:53Richard
41:53but part of the reason
41:55I think
41:55that there was that
41:56whole
41:57do you remember
41:57two years ago
41:58when Kate had
41:59that abdominal surgery
42:01and then she kind of
42:01was recovering
42:03at home
42:03and the internet
42:04blew up
42:05with all sorts
42:06of awful suggestions
42:07but people
42:09were saying
42:10to get clicks
42:11or hits
42:13and monetise
42:14and of course
42:15they weren't regulated
42:16so you know
42:17there's that old saying
42:18isn't there
42:19that a lie
42:21can get halfway
42:22around the world
42:23before the truth
42:24has got their boots on
42:25and so
42:26all these lies
42:27were being said
42:28about their health
42:29and of course
42:30no one could kind of
42:30correct any of these things
42:32because we
42:33as journalists
42:35had to wait
42:36for the palace
42:36to say
42:37it's this
42:38or it's that
42:38and the other
42:39accepting the credentials
42:40of the ambassador
42:41of the court of St James
42:42everyone's talking
42:43about your gallstones
42:44it's a very odd
42:45thing isn't it
42:46I know
42:47that the access
42:48we expect to get
42:49and think is proper
42:50and yet also
42:51you're trying to live
42:52a private life
42:53and I don't want
42:53my medical conditions
42:55not that they're
42:55very exciting
42:57disgust
42:57no
42:57do you think
42:58that we expect too much
42:59do you think
43:00we as the public
43:00expect too much
43:01I think we ask
43:01impossible things
43:02all the time
43:03I think it's an
43:03impossible role
43:04and that's one of the
43:04reasons why we have
43:05these conversations
43:06isn't it
43:06yeah
43:07we want to know
43:09about their private lives
43:09but then we also
43:10don't want to know
43:11about their private lives
43:11we want to know
43:12about their medical
43:13we want to know
43:14and then we complain
43:15as why haven't they
43:16told us what cancer
43:17they're suffering
43:17we want them to be like us
43:18we want them to be not like us
43:19well thank you very much
43:20everybody
43:20now if you want to
43:22catch up with
43:22catching up with royals
43:23you can do that
43:23wherever you get
43:24your social media
43:26you can find us
43:27on five as well
43:28on a Saturday
43:28if you want to do it that way
43:29however you connect with us
43:30we're delighted to
43:31if I'm you
43:32do please get in touch
43:32with your questions
43:33which we will endeavour to answer
43:34please do email
43:35royals
43:36at spirit-studios.com
43:38and Richard and I
43:39will do a deep dive
43:40that's all from the show
43:41it never complains
43:43and yet always explains
43:44until next week
43:45see you next week
44:04from the show
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