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00:00:02Does every man need a room? This is my little plot which used to be a utility
00:00:08room. I was brought up in a council estate, very small houses, small bedrooms,
00:00:14you know everything was small which I like, I find comfort in it and it's all
00:00:19this shit that I like, West Ham being one of them. This is the boys of 86 when
00:00:24West Ham came third. This is a throwback to EastEnders and also I'm quite into like
00:00:34old comics and shit as I've got older. I've got me CCTV that I can you know look
00:00:40at see if anyone's about. This is a creative space for me and this is a
00:00:44space where I will learn my scripts, I do a lot of reading in here. That's not a
00:00:52bookshelf, that's where the boiler is. But I thought I'd... I fucking broke it now look.
00:01:00These days, for men, it can feel like there's nowhere to hide.
00:01:04Don't be silent! We will not be silent!
00:01:08Women have taken to the streets and are calling out men with explicit demands.
00:01:13Nice guys need to step the fuck up. We're shamed by glossy ads for simply being men.
00:01:18Bullying. The Me Too movement against sexual harassment. Toxic masculinity.
00:01:22Is this the best a man can get? Older men are retaliating on telly with
00:01:27provocative rants. You know the whole agenda is being driven by radical
00:01:31feminists who want to expunge masculinity. While the young are rallying to this sort of
00:01:36controversial content from influencers like Andrew Tate. By reducing masculinity as
00:01:41a whole, you're reducing the warriors of society. They don't want... Some are
00:01:44questioning our very future. Are people even going to have dicks in the future?
00:01:48It just seems like everything's going away so fast, man.
00:01:51Yeah, they're trying to do that with this... Is this even a joke?
00:01:57So Channel 4 bummed me a few quid to travel the country talking to geezers.
00:02:02Does it taste like man's film? Or drink if it tastes like man's film?
00:02:06To find out what's going on. Geezers are becoming more feminine. All the men,
00:02:10100 years ago, they'd all be way stronger, bigger beards. Has masculinity become toxic?
00:02:16It's almost becoming shameful to actually want to be masculine.
00:02:20Do everyday blokes feel under attack? The police officer said,
00:02:24do you want to grow yourself a set of balls, son? And is there really a war?
00:02:29It was one of the worst times in my life. On men.
00:02:41Is there a war on masculinity? I mean, I would say, fuck knows. I don't know.
00:02:49That would be my initial reaction to that. Clearly there's some shit going down.
00:02:54And I think men, certain men maybe, or maybe a lot of men, are sort of presenting it a little
00:02:59bit.
00:03:01Right, okay, so we're going to do the toxic masculinity test.
00:03:06This is an online test designed to help you find out if you're a toxic man.
00:03:12You've got disagree or agree, two green bars, two red bars.
00:03:15The question is, men should use violence to get respect if necessary.
00:03:22No, they shouldn't really, should they? You know, use your brains.
00:03:25People sometimes bother me just by being around me. Yes, they do.
00:03:31Especially this film crew.
00:03:34Question three, I have mocked manly women or girly men with derogatory sexual slurs.
00:03:43No.
00:03:44I would be willing to steal a million dollars if I knew I would never get cold.
00:03:50Is that anything toxic?
00:03:52I mean, whose million is it? It depends on the meal, doesn't it?
00:03:55Yes, I would be willing if it was Rupert Murdoch.
00:03:59A guy who doesn't fight back when others push him around is weak.
00:04:05Yes, yes.
00:04:06I wouldn't pretend to like someone just to get them to do favours for me.
00:04:11Hmm.
00:04:12Yeah, I agree with that one.
00:04:13A guy who spends a lot of time on his looks isn't very manly.
00:04:18No, I disagree with that one.
00:04:20Some very handsome men out there, men.
00:04:22Incredibly attractive.
00:04:24So I'm going to have to disagree on that.
00:04:25Disagree.
00:04:26No.
00:04:27No.
00:04:29Right, okay.
00:04:30So, the results are in.
00:04:337% more heteronormative than the average person.
00:04:379% less homophobic than the average person.
00:04:41And 12% more prone to toxic masculinity than the average person overall.
00:04:44Who's the fucking average person, though?
00:04:47Fuck me off, that is.
00:04:48I'll have to do it again and just lie through the whole thing.
00:04:52That'll teach him.
00:04:52But even when I cheat, the test still tells me I'm toxic.
00:04:59Toxic masculinity.
00:05:00What is it?
00:05:01I mean, I've always struggled with the idea of what toxic masculinity is.
00:05:05Turns out it began in America as a kind of self-improvement term for men.
00:05:10Today, Lady Justice is staring down a super predator.
00:05:15But with Weinstein and hashtag me too, the term really took off online.
00:05:20We had Donald Trump as a president of America.
00:05:23Clearly very misogynistic.
00:05:26Nobody respects women more than Donald Trump, that I can tell you.
00:05:31But a lot of people like him, a lot of people got it.
00:05:33A lot of people were tapping into Andrew Tate at the moment for some reason.
00:05:36It's definitely a society thing, this toxic masculinity thing.
00:05:40I understand it's there, but being a man for, you know, nearly 45 years,
00:05:46I'm only starting to become aware of it.
00:05:48But, you know, if I look at myself, have I got some toxic masculinity traits?
00:05:54I probably have, yeah.
00:05:56But I don't feel that men are better than women in any way, shape or form.
00:06:03You've got to understand where I'm coming from.
00:06:06Most of what I grew up with is probably now considered toxic.
00:06:09I come from a place called Custom House in East London, which is a very masculine environment.
00:06:15All men are alphas. They get pissed, they go on work, they provide.
00:06:19The wife stays indoors, makes sure there's a dinner on the table.
00:06:23That was the sort of late 80s, early 90s, so it was a very different era, a very, very different
00:06:27time.
00:06:29It was all stuff I took as an actor, which I then played out in my films.
00:06:34All right, sweetheart? You all right, Kel, yeah?
00:06:37You all right? What do you want a drink?
00:06:40And I think that represented masculinity.
00:06:42Not necessarily toxic masculinity, but masculinity in the films that I was making.
00:06:47When I get out of here, I'm gonna put one right through you on that.
00:06:52If you get out, you ginger cunt.
00:06:57I realise now we're a million miles away from that, and that's not the thing at all.
00:07:01I'm still learning about what makes a good man.
00:07:07One man who should know is my younger brother, Tony.
00:07:11Here we are. Here we are. Good to see you.
00:07:14Thank you, bro.
00:07:14He's a lovely fella. He's a good dad and husband, and he would not hurt a fly.
00:07:19Must be the least toxic bloke I know.
00:07:21Isn't it mad, isn't it, being mad?
00:07:23Our old manor.
00:07:28We're back at the gaff where me, Tony and our sister Kayleigh grew up in the 80s.
00:07:33Well, what reminds me of, mind anything, is when Dad fucked off.
00:07:37You know, because, you know, this was the moment where, all of a sudden, we were, you know, no father
00:07:43figure in the house.
00:07:44My memories of Dad is just being horrible to Mum.
00:07:47Yeah. And the arguments.
00:07:48So, the day that Mum said that he'd moved out was a day of joy for me.
00:07:53He didn't understand you because you didn't conform to what being a man was or what a boy was.
00:07:57Your best mate was Aaron, who lived over there.
00:07:59She was a girl. She was a girl, yeah.
00:08:00She still is my best mate. My closest friend.
00:08:02You didn't like football. When Kayleigh came along, you would play with her dolls, Barbies.
00:08:08Straight away, if he's playing with dolls, he's gay.
00:08:11Yeah, it's very narrow-minded. If you didn't like football, none of the boys wanted to play with you.
00:08:16This is why I sort of envy you now. Back in the day, it was a nightmare for me.
00:08:19Because I just, you know, I was constantly having to sort of fight your battles or try and explain why,
00:08:23actually, you're going to go and play up scotch or you was doing skipping.
00:08:26You just did you. You didn't play any games and it's exhausting trying to keep up with what a boy
00:08:32or a man is supposed to be.
00:08:34Let's have a little mooch about it, eh?
00:08:37Me and my brother, who came out of the same womb, had the same upbringing, but we're so different.
00:08:42I've got so much respect for him.
00:08:45Never in a million years would have I had the bollocks to have picked up a doll if I wanted
00:08:48to play with a doll.
00:08:49Just not what boys do, you know?
00:08:53So, I look back on it and I think, fucking good for you, bro, fucking good for you.
00:08:59Fucking hell, it's so different, huh? Fuck.
00:09:01The skateboard pitch is still there. Yeah. First saw someone take crack here.
00:09:05Really?
00:09:06Good deterrent for going, well, I don't think I'll be dabbling in crack, you know, cut to 20 years later.
00:09:13Not you, of course. No.
00:09:18Masculinity. I mean, what is it? What does it represent to you?
00:09:21The stereotypical masculinity thing is a strong man.
00:09:25Provides. Provides, yeah. Protects.
00:09:27Yeah, doesn't show any emotion, hold bottles everything up, but I think that's an old-school type of masculinity.
00:09:35This Andrew T, he pops up a lot. What do you make of him in a sense of...?
00:09:39He's a narrow-minded man that represents a small minority.
00:09:45He's tapping into something, though, Tom. There's a reason why he's got so many followers, there's a reason why he's
00:09:49been a success in what he's...
00:09:51...in some of the stuff that he's spouted.
00:09:53Well, that doesn't mean being misogynistic and treating women like objects, that doesn't make you be a man, does it?
00:09:59Of course he does enough.
00:10:01Andrew Tate's loud-mouthed anti-feminist rants have attracted him millions of followers worldwide.
00:10:07Feminism goes out the fucking window the second that the snow needs shoveling, or there's a fucking broken-down car,
00:10:13or the tire needs changing, then all that crap vanishes.
00:10:15It's gone. If it wasn't no social media, there would be no Andrew Tate. I remember back in the day,
00:10:19I think Andrew Tate tried to be in Big Brother.
00:10:21So he was looking for fame, and that was his only avenue in.
00:10:24Now he's the most googled man on the planet, apparently, so there's disciples, there's other little youngsters that are going,
00:10:29Oh, I like what he's doing, I'm gonna do the same thing.
00:10:35So-called alpha culture has exploded online with young guys spreading homegrown, misogynistic content.
00:10:43Just outside London, there's an influencer putting his stuff out, mostly from his mum and dad's garage.
00:10:50You all right, mate? Good to see you.
00:10:52Now 20, Ed Matthews has become a big noise with provocative content like this.
00:10:58How many females show hatred, misandry towards men? So many. You'll never see the media show it, though, because they
00:11:04don't give a fuck about the men.
00:11:08How have you become TikTok famous? Because, what you got, 160,000 followers?
00:11:12Oh, no, I had 800,000 at one point.
00:11:16You had 800,000? Got deleted.
00:11:18Why'd you get deleted?
00:11:20Apparently bullying and harassment, but it was all business.
00:11:24What sort of age range would you say your followers are?
00:11:27I've had people from 13 to 40 come up to me. I'd say it's just a lot of men.
00:11:33Mostly men, yeah?
00:11:34Mostly men, but the females are starting to grow on me. They'll probably just fancy me.
00:11:39Yeah. So you never know.
00:11:40Is that what it is, yeah?
00:11:43Much of Ed's content is a mashup of contemporary suburban youth culture and old-fashioned prudishness.
00:11:49Bruv, imagine your ting, your future wife, has had 30 other willies inside her. Fuck that. Even, like, five or
00:11:57seven. Mate, I ain't involved.
00:11:59So tell us a little bit about how you got into this, you know, how you started to, you know,
00:12:02get these views.
00:12:03I just feel like over the last five years, ten years, you may not even notice it, but men have
00:12:09become very oppressed.
00:12:10Geezers are becoming more feminine. Look at all the men 100 years ago. They'd all be way stronger, bigger beards
00:12:17at 17, 16, 18.
00:12:19If you look now, you've got 25-year-olds with no beards.
00:12:23So some of the comments you made online with, you know, women, young women, older women, do you regret any
00:12:29of that, any of the stuff you've said?
00:12:31So if you're overweight and I called you fat, well, you are. What is wrong with me saying that? I'm
00:12:38just stating a fact.
00:12:40So, yeah, I feel like fat shaming is all right. Get in the gym. Get in the gym, mate. You
00:12:45need it.
00:12:47Body counts. Yeah. What's your views on it with women and men?
00:12:52If a woman sleeps with 100 geezers, she's worthless. It's like gold.
00:12:58If it was everywhere and anyone could have it, it loses its value.
00:13:03That's not even a New Age thing, I think. You know, a woman's a slag for a sleep.
00:13:07Oh, yeah, it's like the kings.
00:13:08You know, that's from the dawn of time. Why do you think that is, though, you know?
00:13:13I feel like it's because a woman is the one getting penetrated.
00:13:18They say once a woman sleeps with over five people, then they find it a lot harder to actually be
00:13:25satisfied with...
00:13:27No, but it's true. Once a woman sleeps with five people, they find it harder to be satisfied with a
00:13:31certain man because they've been with so many.
00:13:37Some of the shit he's saying, I mean, I don't think he believes half of it, really.
00:13:41He wants followers. He wants likes. You know, you've got to be slightly controversial for people to pay attention to
00:13:47you.
00:13:47Andrew Tate, one of his quotes was, you need sort of 40% at least the people that like you
00:13:52and 60% that hate you.
00:13:54What would you say to people that would say that you're misogynistic?
00:13:57I might have said a couple misogynistic things. So what? There's a few... I love women.
00:14:03I am generally nice to girls. The girls that don't like me are the strong, independent feminists who feel like
00:14:09they're sexual...
00:14:10They're empowered by their sexuality. They're the deluded people that may not like me.
00:14:15But you never hear about the girls saying misandry.
00:14:19What is that? Exactly. You've never heard of it.
00:14:21So that's the flip side to misogynistic? Yeah.
00:14:24There's so many girls out here that will attack men, say this about men, or hate all men. Fuck. You
00:14:30don't hear it.
00:14:33It was fucking weird and very uncomfortable for me.
00:14:36I'm a 45-year-old man. I sort of look at him and go,
00:14:39Well, okay, you're young. You're sort of early 20s. You've got a fucking whole journey to go on.
00:14:44But I'm not going to get on my eyes and start telling him how to behave,
00:14:48because we're all fucking unique human beings.
00:14:53But I feel he's going to fucking learn the hard way, this kid.
00:15:04My little boy who's nine, he's really smart, but he's got a phone now.
00:15:10And so the other day, his mum said to me,
00:15:12Uh, oh, you know he likes Andrew Tate? And I went, what, what?
00:15:16I said, so, you like Andrew Tate? He went, yeah, Dad, he's a top G.
00:15:21And I went, right, okay, but you do know he says, like, really fucking stupid things?
00:15:28And he went, yeah, but, uh, yeah, but he's still a top G.
00:15:32It is, uh, flowing through every school.
00:15:38Even here. I mean, it's, you know, America, here, you know, all across Europe.
00:15:43It's, it's integrating into young boys' souls.
00:15:47And that's all they need, because it's a tough time to be a boy.
00:15:51At school, they're behind girls at every level, from early years to SATs, GCSEs, A-levels, university admissions and degrees.
00:16:01They've got to figure out sex and relationships in the post-MeToo era, and that's a minefield.
00:16:07And they've got toxic alpha influencers promising them empowerment, making them feel good about themselves.
00:16:13The Times recently reported that schools across the UK are in crisis as the effects of online influencer Andrew Tate's
00:16:19vile misogyny
00:16:20infiltrates our classrooms and society.
00:16:25I'm at an academy in North London to try and find out what's going on.
00:16:29Have our school boys really been infected with a toxic masculine virus?
00:16:35All good? Take a seat, boys.
00:16:37Thank you, first of all, for coming here.
00:16:40It's an interesting subject at the moment.
00:16:43A lot of men out there are struggling. They don't quite know, uh, what you're allowed to be as a
00:16:49man.
00:16:50Who here, and be straight, it's a tricky one, this.
00:16:55Who here likes Andrew Tate?
00:16:56I don't know, it's 50-50.
00:16:58It's 50-50? What do you mean?
00:17:00I agree with some other things, but when he starts being silly, going off track, that's when he loses me.
00:17:06I think some of his views about women are quite extreme.
00:17:10It's misogyny.
00:17:10I feel like Andrew Tate could have been such a good role model.
00:17:13I mean, he has great ideas about how a man should be, but he uses his platform, um, in order
00:17:19to, like, kind of badly influence men.
00:17:22Okay.
00:17:24Some of you have been spoken to about bringing his name up in lessons as though it's, uh, a positive
00:17:29thing.
00:17:29Why do you think, as staff, we are pulling you up on that if you talk about Andrew Tate?
00:17:34I mean, I see a lot of boys in my classes, they used to, um, talk about, like, they're not
00:17:40gonna get homework from female teachers.
00:17:43I guess they got influenced more by his ideas of, like, men being superior and stuff.
00:17:49I'd like to mention Andrew Tate.
00:17:51There's another guy who I've, uh, interviewed called Ed Matthews, who is TikTok famous for being a bit of a
00:17:59disciple of Andrew Tate.
00:18:01Does anyone know who he is?
00:18:02Yeah.
00:18:03You do?
00:18:04And have you heard of Sneeko?
00:18:06No.
00:18:07He's another one.
00:18:08They all kind of follow him.
00:18:10They ain't saying much in front of their teacher and the cameras, but they're clearly familiar with Tate and his
00:18:16disciples.
00:18:17That's interesting, actually.
00:18:19And then the chat takes a different turn.
00:18:22There's, there's toxic masculinity and there's also toxic feminism.
00:18:25What would you say toxic feminism is?
00:18:27Toxic feminism is probably a hate towards men and just believing they're all violent creatures.
00:18:33Okay.
00:18:34You take a, you take a man and then you say, all men are this. It's silly. It's rubbish. You
00:18:40shouldn't do that.
00:18:41I'd say it's quite unjust because they kind of, especially in media now, they're very much kind of, like,
00:18:48classing all men as this terrible thing.
00:18:50Yeah.
00:18:51And that people need to understand that. That's a very small portion of people.
00:18:59They, they, they were, they were quite erudite and articulate, these kids, but, um, very different to when I was
00:19:04a kid.
00:19:05Especially since the pandemic, I think that kids, er, have been more driven into their phones on iPads and social
00:19:14media.
00:19:16I think I'm so grateful that I was fucking brought up in the eighties where I didn't have to deal
00:19:22with none of that shit.
00:19:23It just wasn't about, you know what I mean?
00:19:24If your mates are going to come round and knock on your fucking door, you go out on your bike,
00:19:28you know, there was a landline.
00:19:29That's how you answered the phone. You know, if you weren't in, you missed that call that no one can
00:19:34fucking trace you.
00:19:35I think there's something in that and I, I, I, I fear for the youngsters now.
00:19:38It's a dangerous time and I wish I fucking knew what the answer was. I really, I really do.
00:19:45So I've come to Mansfield in Nottinghamshire to meet sometimes controversial, often outspoken MP, Ben Bradley.
00:19:52Here he is. How are you doing? Good to meet you, Ben.
00:19:55Welcome to Mansfield. Thank you. Pleasure.
00:19:57Is the Mansfield massive? Here they are.
00:20:00Having it large?
00:20:01To find out why he thinks ordinary men and boys are buying into toxic old school masculinity.
00:20:07One of my great passions and the campaign I most regularly return to in this place, Madame D'Espersica,
00:20:11is that of working class boys in areas like Mansfield and in other parts of the country where there's deep
00:20:16and entrenched disadvantage.
00:20:19There you go, see? So it ain't quite a Guinness. It's a, do you like a Mansfield dark?
00:20:24Yeah, I might. I might really, but I might not.
00:20:27It's all right, it's all right if you don't. Let's have a go on it. Does it taste like Mansfield?
00:20:32Define, how does Mansfield taste? I won't drink if it tastes like Mansfield, do you?
00:20:36I love the fact he's a northern kid and he's stuck to his roots. I really respect that.
00:20:42I mean, I come from a fuck hole, but Mansfield, Jesus Christ, what chance do you stand?
00:20:47Three times as many men as women die by suicide. Men report lower levels of life satisfaction,
00:20:51but are less likely to access psychological therapies.
00:20:55Nearly three quarters of adults who go missing are men.
00:20:5787% of Rushleepers are men. Men are three times as likely to become dependent on alcohol or drugs.
00:21:02More likely to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act. More likely to be a victim of violent crime.
00:21:06And, of course, men make up the vast majority of the prison population.
00:21:09These figures really put that male privilege in perspective, Madam Deputy Speaker.
00:21:15I saw one of your speeches in Parliament and it was really interesting to me.
00:21:19Is it fair to say that there is a war on men at the moment?
00:21:25I wouldn't say war on men, but I think we've ended up in this place where we look at equality
00:21:30in the wrong way.
00:21:31And it's almost like in order to help other people, you've got to drag men down, right?
00:21:35And that's not healthy. The majority of the conversation about helping women is positive.
00:21:40The majority of the conversation in the same space about boys is the negative one,
00:21:44is the toxic masculinity, is the male privilege, is the whatever.
00:21:48Do you think we should be celebrating being masculine?
00:21:53Yeah, and if you're a young lad growing up here, you're probably looked at as a bit of a hoodie,
00:21:58a bit of a chav, a bit of whatever, rather than as somebody positive or that's celebrated.
00:22:03Old boys from here are gammons in the public eye, right?
00:22:06Old gammons, yeah.
00:22:07There's nothing to celebrate there, which isn't right and isn't the case.
00:22:10It's a very, very working class place and, you know, a lot of young working class men that are really
00:22:14lost
00:22:15and just disenfranchised. Where do they turn? Who have they got to talk to about shit?
00:22:20You know, no one. No chance do they stand in society.
00:22:24We've been brought up to be providers and to do all of that.
00:22:28To protect.
00:22:28Yeah. Historically, you put your energy into that, right?
00:22:30Your dad will have told you, you go out, you work, you provide for your family, that's what you're for.
00:22:34Yeah.
00:22:35And actually, in some ways, if you think that and if you want to do that, you're sexist
00:22:38or you're dragging women down somehow, there's not a healthy...
00:22:41Well, it's being called toxic, toxic masculinity.
00:22:43You've got the few bad eggs that I suppose that we're all being tarnished with that fucking
00:22:46same brush, aren't we?
00:22:47Yeah. It's a media thing, right? I think the...
00:22:50Everyone likes a bit of, kind of, over-the-top coverage and spark a bit of, erm...
00:22:55Salacious bollocks is what it is.
00:22:58Ben has been mocked for proposing a kind of champion for men in government, just like there is for women.
00:23:04You know, I said, all right, why don't we have a minister who looks at that?
00:23:07Absolutely slated. And these issues don't matter. These issues aren't real. Men are privileged and men are whatever.
00:23:12It's just nonsense.
00:23:13There's so much anger and so much division. There's so much shit going on.
00:23:16Yeah.
00:23:18I just think more people need to get involved in the conversation. We see it in politics all the time,
00:23:23don't we?
00:23:23If you're too scared to have the sensible conversation, some nutters on the far end will come in and they'll
00:23:28have the conversation instead.
00:23:29And then we all get the toxic brand.
00:23:32That's where you end up with the Andrew Tate's, right? Because if you can't get...
00:23:35And I'm glad you're doing this because I think it's important.
00:23:37If you don't fill the conversation with a sensible discussion about it, then there's a big old void.
00:23:43And the Andrew Tate's come into it. And that's why we have Andrew Tate.
00:23:48I absolutely believe that the reason Andrew Tate is a thing, and a huge thing, is because men are being
00:23:53ignored.
00:23:55I think it's a throwback to men having it their own way for so long.
00:23:59For some reason men are just forgotten about, in that sense.
00:24:04And there will be people fucking screaming at the telly at this.
00:24:07But that's how I feel. And that's how a lot of men feel. Decent men, you know?
00:24:17Here is the list from counting dead women and the femicide census of women killed
00:24:22where the primary suspect or known killer is a man since this time last year.
00:24:35Every year on International Women's Day, this depressing ritual plays out.
00:24:44It's a shockingly long list. 107 last year.
00:24:52The internationally used term violence against women and girls covers a range of crimes,
00:24:58including sexual offences, stalking and domestic abuse.
00:25:01And let's face it, the perpetrators are almost always men.
00:25:05It's an epidemic level of violence against women and girls that we are experiencing here.
00:25:12But men can be victims as well as perpetrators.
00:25:17And sometimes men need somewhere to turn to.
00:25:22Hello. Hiya, Danny. Welcome to MFCC.
00:25:25Give me some love. Pleasure. Pleasure.
00:25:27Actually, there's an awful lot of love for you in the room.
00:25:29So please come and meet the team. Oh, well. OK.
00:25:31Hello, everybody. How are you all?
00:25:34We're a feminist organisation, but not today.
00:25:37I'm always happy to help. Thank you.
00:25:39This is Gary. Gary works at the male refuge.
00:25:42Can you come through, get a cup of coffee?
00:25:43Absolutely. Lead the way, please.
00:25:45The male refuge here in Newtown was revolutionary.
00:25:48The first of its kind in the UK when it opened nearly 20 years ago.
00:25:51So, the Montgomery Family Crisis Centre is an organisation we've been going for over 40 years.
00:25:57It was very much a women's aid organisation.
00:26:00Then we realised children need support.
00:26:02And then men, because we had male victims who had nowhere to go.
00:26:07Back in 2006, when we thought, well, do we need a refuge?
00:26:11When we sat round and talked about it, we said, well, what is it we need?
00:26:15And, of course, the only thing we knew was how we ran the women's refuge.
00:26:19We said, well, why don't we just make it a mirror image and see if it works?
00:26:22So, the provision we've got for the men is a mirror image of the support we give for women.
00:26:28Wow.
00:26:29So, when you announced that you were going to open a male refuge,
00:26:32I mean, how did the sector react?
00:26:35There was a couple of times I went to meetings
00:26:38and everybody would be rammed in one side of the room
00:26:41and I'd be sitting on my own.
00:26:43And I did go to one organisation for a training session
00:26:46and I wasn't allowed to have lunch with them.
00:26:49Yeah, I think at that time there was very much along the lines of
00:26:53we just don't believe women could be abusers.
00:26:56But also there was a big scare that, hang on,
00:26:59there's only one pot of money for domestic abuse
00:27:01and that money's going to go... And it should go to women.
00:27:03And it should go to women.
00:27:04Now, as the years went on, it has all changed
00:27:06and everybody offers some kind of level of support for men.
00:27:10But I'm just going to be honest,
00:27:11the amount of money we do spend on male services
00:27:13is very small compared to what we spend on female.
00:27:20We know that most domestic violence is by men, of course we do.
00:27:25But women are, you know, capable of it as well.
00:27:29I didn't realise how much it's going on.
00:27:33As a man, what do you do about it?
00:27:35Because we are physically stronger than women,
00:27:36so, you know, if a man is struggling
00:27:40with some domestic abuse owned by a woman,
00:27:43you can't go and tell people because it's fucking embarrassing.
00:27:48So we're on the way now to the location.
00:27:50Obviously, it's a secret location.
00:27:52Of course, it goes without saying.
00:27:55Tell me about some of the things that you've seen.
00:27:57I've been shown the bruising and damaging
00:28:00that some of them have experienced,
00:28:02especially defensive wounds,
00:28:05when they've been attacked by the perpetrator.
00:28:07There's a lot of wounds on the outside of their arms.
00:28:10They're holding themselves up.
00:28:11Just trying to protect themselves.
00:28:12To defend themselves.
00:28:13Because, in general, men are physically stronger.
00:28:16Yeah.
00:28:16So the idea that you would have to, you know,
00:28:19have to just suffer the beating...
00:28:21They can't fight back.
00:28:22No.
00:28:22Because the minute they fight back,
00:28:23they know that that's going to be used against them.
00:28:25It's about domestic abuse.
00:28:27Doesn't matter what the gender is, it's domestic abuse.
00:28:30And it's a crime.
00:28:31And everyone deserves a good life.
00:28:33And everyone, you know, should be treated the same
00:28:36and have the same resources available to help and support them.
00:28:42According to the latest government stats,
00:28:45just over 29% of domestic abuse victims,
00:28:48including both violence and coercive control, are men.
00:28:53But only 6% of refuge spaces are available for male victims.
00:28:58So this is the way we bring new clients in.
00:29:01So you never bring them in through the front door again?
00:29:03No.
00:29:04It's secure there with a lockable gate, obviously.
00:29:07Right.
00:29:08So we bring them in through the back door,
00:29:10and then we always make sure it's locked.
00:29:13The back door is always locked for security.
00:29:15This is the communal kitchen.
00:29:17Good for the men to get together.
00:29:19Yeah.
00:29:21How many people can you have here at one time?
00:29:23We've got four bedrooms.
00:29:24OK.
00:29:25So we can have four adults and three children.
00:29:29Currently, we've got two people in the property,
00:29:31but we could have a phone call tomorrow and there'll be full.
00:29:35Always ready waiting to take someone on, OK?
00:29:38Gary's arranged for me to meet a couple of the geezers he's helping.
00:29:42This man had been sleeping rough after escaping his violent partner.
00:29:47I really appreciate you talking to me.
00:29:49I didn't realise these places existed, all right?
00:29:51So tell me a little bit about your story.
00:29:53Well, I was with a girl down in West Wales.
00:29:56Yeah.
00:29:57A lot of problems, like, you're drinking a lot.
00:29:59Drinking to blackout, like, if she went out on a bender,
00:30:02she'd come back screaming, shouting, hit with things,
00:30:05things thrown at you, ornaments, all sorts.
00:30:08Police have been called out by neighbours.
00:30:10She'd say, oh, it's him, he's pulled my hair off.
00:30:14And nine times out of ten, the police are going to believe
00:30:17you're having a man.
00:30:18Yeah.
00:30:18The last time, they did arrest me,
00:30:20took me to the police station for the night.
00:30:22But then she was filming up all night,
00:30:25they told her which station I was in,
00:30:26and she was back on my case as soon as I got over there.
00:30:29Like, part of it, you know, you feel sorry for them
00:30:32and you think, oh, I'm going to help sort you out and all that,
00:30:34but it's just got worse and worse.
00:30:38This man and his son came to the refuge in fear for their lives
00:30:41and are now in the process of reintegrating into the community.
00:30:45And so you came in with your son?
00:30:47Yeah.
00:30:48And, er, tell me how you ended up here.
00:30:51Well, the wife was having episodes, you ought to say,
00:30:55and she was getting more and more frightening.
00:30:58So what sort of stuff, you know, was you scared of your life?
00:31:01I mean, what?
00:31:02Oh, we were sleeping with our clothes on.
00:31:04Why?
00:31:05In case something happened.
00:31:06We were sleeping in shifts.
00:31:07The money was a big issue.
00:31:09I mean, I was trying to save money to pay the bills.
00:31:11And she was spending it, and then she was having a go at me
00:31:13because there was no money.
00:31:14Because there was no money, yeah, yeah.
00:31:15If I said, no, you can't have that money
00:31:16because I want to pay the bills,
00:31:17she would say I'm abusing her because I'm withholding money.
00:31:23So what's this place give you?
00:31:24What's it, I mean, what stage are you at with this process?
00:31:27It gave us hope, you know, it gave us company,
00:31:30gave us safety.
00:31:31It gave us somewhere where we could think
00:31:33where we could go from here.
00:31:35You know, the staff here are great.
00:31:38People are great, you know, got a new future.
00:31:40You sort of come back on the other side now?
00:31:44I can't begin to come back on the other side now.
00:31:47Thankfully, here they take men seriously as victims
00:31:50and as responsible parents.
00:31:54All too often, deeply ingrained notions of masculinity
00:31:58either prevent male victims from being believed
00:32:01or stop them from asking for help in the first place.
00:32:05It's a fucking revelation to me that, you know,
00:32:07some men just have to go and hide and take their kids
00:32:09and, you know, hide away somewhere.
00:32:13And they were broken, man.
00:32:14They was, you know, they was on their fucking knees.
00:32:18It gave me a bit of heart that there are some people out there
00:32:21trying to do something about it,
00:32:22but there should be places for men to go to
00:32:25because they'll end up with men snapping
00:32:27and doing something fucking stupid
00:32:28because they've got nowhere to go or talk to anyone about it.
00:32:33It's a big step for a man to admit
00:32:36that he's been abused by a woman.
00:32:39And one young lad in particular related a story
00:32:41where he plucked up enough courage, he'd had enough.
00:32:44He went to the police, made a complaint,
00:32:47and the police officer said,
00:32:48you want to grow yourself a set of balls, son?
00:32:51You think there's a lot of men out there
00:32:53that don't come to these places
00:32:54because they're embarrassed, they're pride.
00:32:57I think it's...
00:32:58The youngsters of today are more aware that there is help,
00:33:02but people that say my age, they...
00:33:05It is like a macho thing, and I can't cry...
00:33:08Masculinity, see?
00:33:09Yeah, I can't cry.
00:33:10How can...how will my mates react when I tell them
00:33:12my wife's abusing me?
00:33:14I know what they'll say to me.
00:33:15Man up, what's the matter about you?
00:33:16Sort it out.
00:33:17That's the wrong advice.
00:33:19Of course it is.
00:33:22That's what society expects of men.
00:33:25You know, if you really do scratch the surface,
00:33:30man up, grow a pair of bollocks.
00:33:32I mean, it's very confusing, isn't it?
00:33:35OK, yeah, maybe I should be a man about it.
00:33:37What, and go home and give her a fucking clump?
00:33:38What, it's very, you know...
00:33:39What does that...
00:33:40What does that actually fucking mean?
00:33:44What they've done in mid-Wales is a big step forward,
00:33:47but too many people seem to think
00:33:49there's something wrong with men as a whole.
00:33:52Every week, around 1,000 custody cases go to family court.
00:33:57Official stats showing success rates
00:33:59for fathers and mothers are not released,
00:34:01despite attempts by activists to find out.
00:34:05Desperate dads have been campaigning for decades,
00:34:08resulting to noisy, controversial protests.
00:34:12And they claim, in the vast majority of cases,
00:34:15custody is awarded to the mother,
00:34:17who is seen as the better, safer parent.
00:34:21And this can have tragic consequences.
00:34:25Hello. Please come in.
00:34:28Not too bad.
00:34:29I'm meeting a man who's spent years
00:34:30fighting for custody of his child.
00:34:32Hello. How are you?
00:34:34Matthew has agreed to meet at his mum and dad's house.
00:34:37Ivana, his wife, is also here to support him.
00:34:40And they have two boys who are at school.
00:34:42Proper little spread.
00:34:45But we're here to talk about Matthew's first son
00:34:48from his previous partner, Archie.
00:34:52I just really want you to tell me your story, really.
00:34:56In 2010, my son Archie was born with a C-section.
00:35:00I was the first person to hold him.
00:35:02He was my everything.
00:35:05Six months later, my ex and I split up.
00:35:09It wasn't a very nice time.
00:35:11She...
00:35:13On the night that we split up,
00:35:15she came at me with a rounder's bat, baseball bat.
00:35:19I left with Archie to try and protect him,
00:35:21to go to her sister's just around the corner.
00:35:24The police came, they took Archie off me.
00:35:28I then got told to leave the area,
00:35:30not knowing if my son's okay or not.
00:35:34Went back to my parents.
00:35:36It was one of the worst times in my life.
00:35:39She stopped contact with Archie,
00:35:42so I wasn't able to see my son.
00:35:45I think she believed that I should've just walked away
00:35:49and just kept feeding her money.
00:35:51And I couldn't walk away from my son.
00:35:54No.
00:35:55Matthew tried to get access to his son through the courts.
00:35:58She made up allegations that I was an alcoholic,
00:36:02drug user, all sorts.
00:36:04The court ordered one hour every fortnight at a contact centre.
00:36:08So under supervision.
00:36:09So under supervision.
00:36:10We had lots of paperwork, which you can imagine.
00:36:14And I kept, I did a few charts of what happened.
00:36:17This is just one of them.
00:36:20Domestic incident report.
00:36:22And that's just the beginning.
00:36:24Wow.
00:36:25Domestic violence.
00:36:26Nothing's proved.
00:36:27It just goes on and on and on and on.
00:36:30I had hair follicle samples.
00:36:33I had my medical records looked at with a fine tooth comb.
00:36:38Then all the allegations that she created were proved to be false.
00:36:45Matthew's access increased,
00:36:46but his ex ignored or breached multiple court orders,
00:36:50forcing him back to court each time.
00:36:52And all along, he was worried for the safety of his son.
00:36:56He used to come regularly to me with bruises on him.
00:37:01And the one time there's almost fingerprints on his leg,
00:37:07I asked him how he got those.
00:37:09His comment was,
00:37:11Mummy held me upside down and shook me.
00:37:14He was four at the time, I believe.
00:37:18I reported that to the school, the doctor, the police.
00:37:23In 2017, we went back to court.
00:37:29I went into court.
00:37:30She never showed up.
00:37:32The judge indicated that,
00:37:36because of her not actually showing up,
00:37:39he would give her one last chance.
00:37:41And they set a new call date.
00:37:45I got home that evening, the police turned up.
00:37:52She had murdered my son.
00:37:59She murdered him.
00:38:06I cannot understand how parents could do that to their own child.
00:38:14My whole world just fell apart.
00:38:20Wow.
00:38:21I'm sorry.
00:38:26I was hoping and praying
00:38:28that the worst part of the story was going to be
00:38:31that he just hasn't seen his son in two years or something like
00:38:34and he can't see his son again.
00:38:35And then when he told me that she'd murdered him,
00:38:39I just, my fucking...
00:38:41It makes me so fucking angry
00:38:43that people have allowed this to happen.
00:38:46You just lose all faith in humanity
00:38:48when you hear a story like that.
00:38:49And I...
00:38:51It's not even about a gender thing for me now.
00:38:54The system has to fucking change.
00:38:56Like he said, this has happened before
00:38:58and it's happened since
00:38:59and it will keep going on if we just assume at all times
00:39:03that it must be the man that's abusing a child.
00:39:14I just...
00:39:15Jesus fucking Christ.
00:39:16I am a very domesticated goddess.
00:39:21I've only got me marigolds
00:39:23when I pick the shit up in the garden
00:39:25for me dog, Young Debs.
00:39:29I think we have had a good run as men,
00:39:32especially with pay and shit like that
00:39:35and where we've been put within society
00:39:37Over the years, we have had a good run at it.
00:39:40There's no two ways about that.
00:39:42But for me personally, as a man who's pushing 50,
00:39:49I've got me mental health issues.
00:39:51I've got a few chins now.
00:39:52I've got a pair of tits.
00:39:54I'm happy, though, I must say, as a man.
00:39:58I think I'm a decent man.
00:39:59I'm a kind man.
00:40:01I'm a good man.
00:40:02I love my children.
00:40:03I love me missus.
00:40:05At the moment, I fucking hate her at the moment,
00:40:06but I won't go into that, it's a whole other show.
00:40:08But clearly, clearly, there is some sort of war going on.
00:40:16So where do men go from here?
00:40:19Sit about being victims or stand up for who we are
00:40:22and what we believe in?
00:40:25There's one group of blokes that has been doing just that.
00:40:28Oh, it's Ramo.
00:40:31For a very long time.
00:40:33It's raining men, come, hallelujah.
00:40:36It's raining men.
00:40:37Gay geezers.
00:40:38And it's lesser men that's tall, blonde, dark and mean.
00:40:43Rough and tough and strong and lean.
00:40:46I love being around gay men.
00:40:48God bless the naked man.
00:40:49They've had to fight a lot to be accepted in society,
00:40:53and there's still some areas of society that they're not accepted.
00:40:56We know there's a lot of homophobia about,
00:40:57but, you know, to see a group of men like that
00:41:00expressing their self the way they do is fucking beautiful.
00:41:02Hear the thunder, don't you lose your head.
00:41:09But, you know, mostly you have gayers standing in a pub like that,
00:41:12going boom, boom, boom, you know, while the women are dancing, you know.
00:41:15When actually the gayer wants to express himself, you know.
00:41:18And it's such a shame that something innocent stops us fucking doing it.
00:41:24Rip off the roof and stay in bed.
00:41:27Rip off the roof and say it's raining men.
00:41:32They seem like a happy bunch, but most have grown up with prejudice.
00:41:36So how have they overcome that?
00:41:38Singing with a group of men I find really, really joyful,
00:41:42especially seeing as, you know, when I got to secondary school,
00:41:44I stopped all singing completely because I was scared of it being girly,
00:41:48I was scared of singing and singing being gay.
00:41:50So, like, fighting through the perceptions of what a man is,
00:41:54and then, you know, saying, oh, I don't care about any of that,
00:41:57I'm just going to do me, and finding a community that accepts that
00:42:01is really important as well.
00:42:02Of course.
00:42:03And to share your stories when you're not OK.
00:42:06And this choir is a great example of that, you know.
00:42:08I think, you know, some of us would say it's a bit like
00:42:10the Lonely Hearts Brigade sometimes.
00:42:12There's lots of people who've been through a lot of things,
00:42:15and actually we all come together and we do talk to each other
00:42:18about our feelings and what's going on, and, you know,
00:42:20if we're having a shit day and we're struggling a bit,
00:42:23we talk to one another about it, which is, for me,
00:42:25like, it's been a great support.
00:42:27These blokes have spent more time than most
00:42:29thinking about their masculinity.
00:42:31What does a man represent for you now?
00:42:34I think, for me, there's no real set thing of what a man is.
00:42:37I think everybody's kind of different in what that means to them
00:42:40and who they are.
00:42:41It's just about being you.
00:42:42I think we've got more flexibility to be a bit feminine
00:42:46and a little bit masculine sometimes.
00:42:48This is the thing, and as a straight man,
00:42:50I sort of envy the fact that you can actually express yourself
00:42:56and flit in and out of both.
00:42:57I think we've had to work quite hard to get there.
00:43:00Absolutely.
00:43:00I went to an all-boys school, which was, this is what a man is,
00:43:03and, you know, as I grew up, I was like, I don't feel like this
00:43:06and I feel massively excluded from that and what do I do about that?
00:43:09And then I think as you take your time, you kind of,
00:43:12grow into yourself.
00:43:14So it's okay to be gay and masculine at the same time?
00:43:18Yeah.
00:43:19It's really oppressive to say, oh, my God, I've been, like,
00:43:22all my whole life have been conditioned to behave in a certain way.
00:43:25But in fact, you don't have to.
00:43:27You can do it a different way.
00:43:29I just feel that it's a bit of a lost generation at the moment,
00:43:32or it has been.
00:43:34I think men feel attacked, though.
00:43:36I think men feel like, you know,
00:43:39kind of in defence of themselves in a way.
00:43:41But it's leading to this kind of toxic side.
00:43:45It's almost becoming shameful to actually want to be masculine.
00:43:49It shouldn't be.
00:43:49I think a lot of that shame comes from how we treat children.
00:43:54We ask girls, how are you feeling?
00:43:56Your dress is beautiful.
00:43:58We kind of train them to think about their emotions.
00:44:01But for boys, we kind of say, what did you do today?
00:44:04It's kind of your character.
00:44:05What have you achieved?
00:44:07So now when we have emotional problems,
00:44:09we've never been trained to actually express it.
00:44:13What do you think the future holds for men at the moment,
00:44:16the way it's going?
00:44:18I feel that quite positive, to be honest.
00:44:20Most of us here have done therapy.
00:44:22We've worked through quite a lot of stuff.
00:44:24And then we're going on to be parents, hopefully,
00:44:28or supportive uncles and whatever,
00:44:30and seeing our families, kind of the next generation,
00:44:33being a lot more gentle and caring and supportive.
00:44:37And you see that in the youth.
00:44:38So I think then there'll be a new kind of masculinity.
00:44:41I think it's actually going to have a lot of impact
00:44:43having someone like you, Danny,
00:44:44that's probably a lot of these masculine men can identify with,
00:44:47actually getting involved and actually asking the questions.
00:44:50This is the time when people are seeing things.
00:44:53They've seen every other group question things and explain things.
00:44:57But we haven't seen masculinity spoken about in this way.
00:45:00And we've got a lot of things clumped into it.
00:45:03The aggression, the misogyny, et cetera.
00:45:05So there really hasn't been a clear definition of what it is.
00:45:08I'm hoping that this film is going to raise debate,
00:45:10if nothing else, and get people talking,
00:45:13and, you know, less of this fucking division,
00:45:15and you're that, we're that, fuck you type vibe, you know?
00:45:18Own who the fuck you are.
00:45:21These fellas give me hope for the future.
00:45:24They've overcome adversity.
00:45:27They support each other.
00:45:29And they make me feel good to be a man.
00:45:31We're proud to be men, yeah?
00:45:33Yeah.
00:45:34Just reigning fucking men.
00:45:36They can teach all men a thing or two for sure.
00:45:44What does the future hold for men?
00:45:46Because at the moment, men are in a weird place.
00:45:48I think there is so much pressure for young boys growing up.
00:45:53Men are struggling in many ways,
00:45:55and there seems to be a lot of help for women at the moment,
00:45:57but not much for men.
00:45:58Yeah!
00:46:00This has become quite an emotional thing for me.
00:46:02I'm looking for some light at the end of this fucking toxic masculine tunnel.
00:46:07It's like a big counselling service, but we're boxing.
00:46:11I'm looking very bold, I like it, I like it.
00:46:13I won't get one over.
00:46:15Custy musty.
00:46:16To be a man.
00:46:17There has to be a fucking future.
00:46:19Here we go.
00:46:20Because the planet's fucked without men.
00:46:24Isn't it?
00:46:31And support information for the issues raised
00:46:34can be found online at channel4.com slash support.
00:46:37But where do we go from here?
00:46:39Danny's turning his focus to the future,
00:46:40and you can join him.
00:46:41How To Be A Man concludes tomorrow night at 10,
00:46:43all streaming now on Channel 4.
00:46:45Next, though, it's Carboot Kings.