- 1 day ago
John and Chino discuss the rise of Hobart Freeman's divine healing doctrine, tracing how promises of perfect faith and freedom from medicine evolved into fear, control, and devastating outcomes. Through firsthand testimony, recorded sermons, and documented contradictions between teaching and practice, they examine how extreme theology reshaped lives, silenced questions, and reframed suffering as spiritual failure.
This conversation explores the psychological and spiritual mechanisms that sustain high-control religious systems, including cognitive dissonance, leader immunity, and myth-making after a leader's death. By focusing on verifiable facts rather than speculation, the discussion challenges listeners to consider how doctrine should be tested by both Scripture and lived reality—and what happens when it is not.
______________________
00:00 Introduction
03:47 Freeman’s doctrine and the problem of contradiction
07:30 Post-death denial and rewriting history
12:03 Control through doctrine and information
19:11 The glasses teaching and enforced faith behavior
27:01 Claims of divine health vs lived reality
32:17 The final year and escalation of threats
38:00 Medication, authority, and moral coercion
43:22 Why followers protect leaders at all costs
49:39 Freeman’s feet, orthopedic shoes, and inconsistency
54:50 Medical facts surrounding Freeman’s death
59:27 Patterns repeated across healing movements
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
This conversation explores the psychological and spiritual mechanisms that sustain high-control religious systems, including cognitive dissonance, leader immunity, and myth-making after a leader's death. By focusing on verifiable facts rather than speculation, the discussion challenges listeners to consider how doctrine should be tested by both Scripture and lived reality—and what happens when it is not.
______________________
00:00 Introduction
03:47 Freeman’s doctrine and the problem of contradiction
07:30 Post-death denial and rewriting history
12:03 Control through doctrine and information
19:11 The glasses teaching and enforced faith behavior
27:01 Claims of divine health vs lived reality
32:17 The final year and escalation of threats
38:00 Medication, authority, and moral coercion
43:22 Why followers protect leaders at all costs
49:39 Freeman’s feet, orthopedic shoes, and inconsistency
54:50 Medical facts surrounding Freeman’s death
59:27 Patterns repeated across healing movements
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical
00:00:40Research at william-branham.org and with me I have my co-host, Minister...
00:00:50Oh, hundreds.
00:00:51I'll see you soon.
00:00:53Have a great day for a moment.
00:00:54To build upасти a world.
00:00:55To build up.
00:00:55To build up.
00:00:57To build up.
00:01:14Welcome.
00:01:15Hello.
00:01:19about this kind of thing. And whenever I think of what you're
00:01:22saying with Hobart Freeman, I hate to
00:01:24say it, but I'm actually thinking of Steve
00:01:25Martin and some of the figures in Hollywood
00:01:27because it would make a great
00:01:29movie. And I think Steve Martin might
00:01:30actually fit the bill. But anyway,
00:01:34all of that aside, I'm trying to put myself
00:01:37in your shoes as somebody
00:01:39who was in the movement, suddenly discovered
00:01:42that it's wrong.
00:01:44And then tried to warn people about it
00:01:47because that fit
00:01:49what I did. And that fits the scenario I
00:01:51have. And just yesterday, I don't know if
00:01:54you probably didn't see it in the comment
00:01:55feeds, but just yesterday, somebody came across a
00:01:59excerpt of my research that I was doing with
00:02:02Charles, where we were talking
00:02:04about the very clear, definite, undeniable ties between
00:02:09this movement and the white supremacy movements,
00:02:12specifically William
00:02:14Branham and his mentor and all of the details
00:02:16there. And this was a person who's obviously
00:02:19in the Branham cult or at least affected by the Branham cult.
00:02:24And saying that, no, your research is wrong. And even if I respond with the link,
00:02:29here, no, here's the actual documentation. This is actual proof. They, they want to
00:02:34instead attack the character. And I learned a long time ago that
00:02:39I just kind of ignored that kind of thing, because if you attack the character and you ignore the substance,
00:02:44it shows the kind of person that you are. And I realized that I'm just
00:02:49going to rise above that. So I just let him go. And, you know, I did give the information out
00:02:54there. If anybody wanted to see my response was calm, gentle. I just, I let him know
00:02:59and I said something to the effect, I'm sorry, friend, but I was in the same
00:03:04mindset. And here's where you can go and find the information and just let it go at that. But I'm
00:03:09trying to put myself in your shoes. It's even though what I had was significant,
00:03:14that's the white supremacy organization. We're talking about the Klan, the, the
00:03:19indoctrination wasn't revolving around that. So it's just like the side story that exists.
00:03:24But what you're finding with Hobart Freeman, it's actually the main story
00:03:29contradicts the overall objective of the movement. So in
00:03:34fact, what you have undermines the whole movement. So I can't even imagine what was going on
00:03:39to what would go through the minds of the people as you're trying to explain this. But anyway,
00:03:44we're getting into the heart of the, the heart of the moment where now he's
00:03:49suffering, he's got the feet issues. He died of heart.
00:03:54heart attack, heart attack, there are different things that happen. So all of this reject
00:03:59the entire notion of the movement. And I think this, we might say that this is the
00:04:04climax, this episode here, or we might not, you know,
00:04:09I am long winded. If you can already tell, and there are just so many interests.
00:04:14Interesting details to all of this, John, I wish it was as easy as, you know, just
00:04:19someone was living in great health and then fell over dead of a heart attack.
00:04:24But the way you just introduced all of this, I would have to say that you are
00:04:29wise beyond your years. I think you told me today is your birthday, the 30th.
00:04:34I think you told me today you turned 30. That's amazing 50.
00:04:39That is amazing. That you are wise beyond your 30 years that you
00:04:44have lived so far or whatever your birthday number is. Yeah.
00:04:49So it brings back a whole lot of memories of
00:04:54you know, when I first heard Dr. Freeman, I thought that I was, had
00:04:59found the days of the apostles that we were just going to experience just what
00:05:03they had experienced.
00:05:04in the book of Acts because that's what I was promised. That's what I was told by
00:05:08him. And.
00:05:09By that movement in general and there wasn't a.
00:05:14single thing he believed that I didn't believe, you know, he was the mentor.
00:05:19He was the maestro of the movement and.
00:05:24I don't think I really heard.
00:05:27I did not hear.
00:05:28I did not hear.
00:05:29Early on.
00:05:30The, the threats of judgment.
00:05:32I don't know how that passed by.
00:05:34Me.
00:05:35But I was just happy.
00:05:36I was just happy in my life.
00:05:38I was 17 years.
00:05:3918 years old to begin with through my late teens, 18, 19.
00:05:42I was just happy.
00:05:44With what I heard and there were definitely loaded.
00:05:49statements and veil threats just throughout.
00:05:51You can go back and hear them now, but I was a blitz.
00:05:54And I was oblivious to those because.
00:05:55I wasn't going to criticize him anyway.
00:05:57You know, I believe this.
00:05:58So.
00:05:59I didn't have anything to fear from, from touching God's anointed.
00:06:03I had no plan to do it.
00:06:04Because I agreed with everything, but as I have shared on many of the.
00:06:09Today's podcast, by the time I'm in my early twenties, I am teaching myself.
00:06:13I'm a minister.
00:06:14I'm still believing what Hobart said, but I'm just saying things that are not right.
00:06:18That are.
00:06:19Either contradictory and, or just don't line up with what the Bible says.
00:06:23I'm.
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00:07:42followers, the ministers especially, but the people as well.
00:07:47Began to deny that Hobart said what he did.
00:07:52Because I was trying to ask people, well, how can this be true?
00:07:57That Hobart said because of this.
00:07:59Hobart didn't say that.
00:08:01He didn't teach that.
00:08:02That's not what he said.
00:08:04You took him out of context.
00:08:06Oh.
00:08:07That's what the ministers under him, they took Hobart's teaching and then.
00:08:12Hobart made it more extreme than he ever intended it to be.
00:08:17Every possible excuse.
00:08:20I even remember reading.
00:08:22One newspaper article, either from the Warsaw or for from.
00:08:27From the Fort Wayne paper where they had interviewed a woman who was trying to.
00:08:32Explain what had taken place and she said she.
00:08:37She accused Bruce Kinsey of all people and then she accused through him all the ministers.
00:08:42And I don't think her accusation was was true.
00:08:45So I'm defending Bruce.
00:08:47In this regard, I'm defending all the other ministers under Hobart in this regard.
00:08:52She said, well, Hobart never taught any of those things.
00:08:55It was his lieutenants.
00:08:57In order to work their way up the the pulpit responsibility.
00:09:02You know, the more faithful you could be to.
00:09:07An extreme message.
00:09:08Hopefully Hobart would notice you.
00:09:11And that.
00:09:12That would put you in his good graces.
00:09:13So Hobart didn't actually teach these things, but it was his.
00:09:17Lieutenants who grabbed what Hobart taught, you know.
00:09:22A little bit on faith, a little bit on healing, and then ran with it and turned.
00:09:27Turned it into something extreme.
00:09:28That's, you know, I had seen that newspaper report, but that is.
00:09:32Simply not true at all.
00:09:34Hobart was the top dog.
00:09:37In the movement and had any minister taught anything.
00:09:42That was not biblical.
00:09:43Hobart would have immediately brought that.
00:09:47Under the rule of his authority, the one who was responsible for.
00:09:52All of the teaching, the one from whom everyone learned, was.
00:09:57Dr. Freeman himself, and even after he passed away.
00:10:02Within a couple of years of that, you know, they were trying to.
00:10:07We'll talk about this if the Lord wills in future podcasts.
00:10:12They went through, you know, all kinds of transition on, well, what are we going to do?
00:10:17You know, now that Moses is dead, now that Elijah is gone, what are we going to do?
00:10:22And that was a big struggle for the church.
00:10:23They eventually ended up having Bill.
00:10:27Bill Garner, a very nice man who had been an older man.
00:10:31They eventually.
00:10:32They eventually had him as pastor.
00:10:33Well, he didn't last long.
00:10:35They removed him.
00:10:36Do you know.
00:10:37Because he began to soften Freeman's message and say, wait a minute, we.
00:10:42We can't have all of this death by no divine healing.
00:10:46We need to.
00:10:47We need to have more love.
00:10:48Well, the authorities of the church, even though he was the pastor.
00:10:52The other people, you know, ganged up on him and removed him.
00:10:55So I say all that.
00:10:57To say this, John, that's why we have played so many X.
00:11:02Serbs, this isn't somebody's opinion, mine, yours, or.
00:11:07Anyone else is that Hobart taught this, believed it, said it.
00:11:12This is exactly what was said.
00:11:15And that is why we have worked.
00:11:17Especially you so hard to play these excerpts.
00:11:22From these particular messages.
00:11:24And I know someone even said the other day.
00:11:27Well, wow, you guys are actually naming the message and you're playing the start point.
00:11:32And the stop point.
00:11:33So it's kind of hard to dispute that.
00:11:35It's not hard to dispute it.
00:11:37It's really impossible to, because these are his own recordings.
00:11:42You know, so the person, whomever that was, that met.
00:11:47Made all of these messages available on YouTube.
00:11:50I'm sure they meant to.
00:11:52I'm sure they meant to do that to spread Freemanism.
00:11:54Thankfully, it has also.
00:11:57Helped researchers and fact checkers to actually go.
00:12:02And look themselves and find out, yeah, that's exactly what he said.
00:12:07It reminds me, and it's kind of funny.
00:12:08There's, in the Branham history, there was a gentleman.
00:12:12Who, he's like me, he was a tech guy.
00:12:15And he wondered why, after all.
00:12:17Of these years, do we not have the transcriptions of Branham where people can just simply.
00:12:22Read them because if we had the transcriptions, then we could send them to interpreters and they.
00:12:27Could easily transcribe them in multiple languages and nobody really.
00:12:32Can't stop to think that the organization, the headquarters, which is distributing all of this material.
00:12:37Has had 50 years to transcribe and translate all.
00:12:42All of these sermons and all of the different languages and even have a staff of interpreters.
00:12:46And in 50.
00:12:4750 years, they weren't able to transcribe the sermons and translate them.
00:12:52So what happened was he created, he did.
00:12:57I guess OCR and scraped all of the texts, cleaned it up and put it into a database.
00:13:02Where it was searchable and this has many problems when you're dealing with a cult leader who is.
00:13:07Not quite honest.
00:13:08People who aren't honest can't keep track of their own lies.
00:13:12So you would hear a sermon where one doctrine is being said to one.
00:13:17One doctrine to another group of people and another doctrine to another group of people.
00:13:20Well, cult headquarters got.
00:13:22Not very upset.
00:13:23Not very upset.
00:13:24You're not supposed to do this.
00:13:25We're the ones to control it.
00:13:26And they tried to block.
00:13:27The whole thing.
00:13:28And in essence, what they were trying to do is just really spread the.
00:13:32The idea that we can't, we can't let the world know what our prophets.
00:13:37They said, and yet it was supposed to be a prophet for the last day, prophet for the end time.
00:13:42And I thought mistakenly that this was a unique thing that people.
00:13:47For example, we, we, in Branimism, we just had this weird oddity where we had a.
00:13:52A cult leader who couldn't tell the truth, but what I began to understand as I started
00:13:57going through all of the different cults that not only spun off of from this.
00:14:02But other cults as well that are completely unrelated, it seems.
00:14:07It seems to be a mentally unstable person who rises to the top.
00:14:10And you have a group of people who.
00:14:12Are under the control and manipulation of somebody who is a little bit unstable.
00:14:17And it, I hate to say it, there's not really a good way to say this.
00:14:22I was included.
00:14:23So this is not against everybody else.
00:14:25And not me.
00:14:26I was unstable.
00:14:27I was in this because I can clearly remember a doctrine that went down.
00:14:32I was in this direction and encountering somebody who had heard William Branham's
00:14:37say the doctrine that went down the other direction, which was a polar opposite doctrine.
00:14:42And I started after I left, I started going through each of the things that I believe.
00:14:47And I came to realize that he preached both sides of almost everything.
00:14:52And when I started looking at some of the other cults, Hobart Freeman included, I found that
00:14:57maybe not everything, but you can find many things where they will contradict themselves.
00:15:02But yet the people are trained to believe that is, it is a static 100%.
00:15:07Perfect from breathe by God doctrine that came.
00:15:12And so I was able to say, well, I'm not sure.
00:15:13I'm not sure.
00:15:14I'm not sure.
00:15:15I'm not sure.
00:15:16I'm not sure.
00:15:17I'm not sure.
00:15:18I'm not sure.
00:15:19I'm not sure.
00:15:20I'm not sure.
00:15:21I'm not sure.
00:15:22I'm not sure.
00:15:23I'm not sure.
00:15:24But then plant one thing is more sudden things and Awards Çaladars tecnología.
00:15:40And that's where we got to change that thing and think is it.
00:15:45correct, he did say whatever is the doctrine that they heard and believe, and has been
00:15:50implanted in their head, but they don't recognize that both things exist.
00:15:55And both things can create a problem.
00:15:58More than that, having been indoctrinated,
00:16:00they can't see the problem even if you present it to them.
00:16:04That's really the key.
00:16:05So once I learned this and learned that this was a common thing, I started
00:16:10going through trying to help other cult scenarios where you've got a group of people
00:16:15and you've got one person who has now discovered the knowledge.
00:16:18And I found that the problem
00:16:20that I was facing was replicated in almost every one of the cults, very much the same as
00:16:25what what we're going through here with Hobart Freeman.
00:16:28And yet at the same time,
00:16:30with Freeman, it gets a little bit worse because again, the problems that he's facing with
00:16:35his own health and his failing health contradict the very doctrine for the reason
00:16:40that the whole thing was established.
00:16:42So the cognitive dissonance for this group is actually just
00:16:45just a little bit stronger than the ones that I've dealt with in other cases.
00:16:48I'm not surprised to hear that.
00:16:50So each each item that we have addressed, John, we have tried to
00:16:55document the when and where, because I guess, you know,
00:17:00we're all human beings, we're all guilty of this.
00:17:03We hear what we want to hear.
00:17:05And we tend to I mean, that's why you either watch Fox News or CNN.
00:17:10You don't watch both.
00:17:11You know, you choose one or the other because you want to believe what you want to
00:17:15believe you want to hear what you want to hear.
00:17:17And we're all guilty of that to some degree or the other.
00:17:20And it's difficult to really, I guess, if you've been a part of
00:17:25a group like Hobart Freeman's to acknowledge
00:17:30Yeah, those things were actually said and done.
00:17:33And so
00:17:35we don't like having to admit that what we all have to admit.
00:17:39Yes, we were gullible.
00:17:40I was talking with someone the other day and they said, you know, this has just been very painful.
00:17:45I was talking with someone the other day and they said, you know, this has just been very painful.
00:17:45Because you're, you're telling me that I was deluded.
00:17:50And I said, but that's a wonderful thing to ever find out.
00:17:55That you once were in the past, it would be horrible.
00:18:00It would be horrible to go down to death as Dr. Freeman did.
00:18:05And never acknowledge all of your delusions.
00:18:08I said, you know, I look back.
00:18:10I look back on some of my earlier things and I go, what an idiot I was.
00:18:15And whether you are willing to call yourself an idiot, I'm willing to call myself that doesn't
00:18:20me no harm.
00:18:21All it does is free you.
00:18:22You know, if you're never willing to admit how dumb.
00:18:25Even was I, but we know we're really not poking fun at anybody.
00:18:30Everybody's maturity or masculinity or anything, the, a.
00:18:35A religious cult with its constant repetition and its mind control.
00:18:40It's simply a powerful thing that people outside of it, who, who, who, who.
00:18:45I have always been in just a normal, balanced Baptist Methodist.
00:18:50Pentecostal church don't understand where you, when you can.
00:18:55Leave one church and happily go to another.
00:18:58And everyone still loves everyone.
00:19:00That's not the case with something like faith assembly.
00:19:03So something we've made.
00:19:05We've made a lot of attention in the past, but I want to play a clip here because it is.
00:19:10It just covers it from every angle and that concerning concerns the where.
00:19:15We're wearing of eyeglasses.
00:19:18That was not something that.
00:19:20By the way.
00:19:21It came late in Hobart's teaching ministry.
00:19:25He spoke about glasses regularly.
00:19:30I can find and show people the exact tapes where he's saying, well, tomorrow.
00:19:35You know, I've got to go renew my driver's license and I'm confessing by.
00:19:40Faith, I'll pass the eye exam.
00:19:42There are multiple times over different years whenever you had.
00:19:45You need to go renew your driver's license.
00:19:47So that's something he talked about.
00:19:50And he told so many stories, you know, I want people to.
00:19:55Understand before something is actually outlawed or even if.
00:20:00Something is never formally written up in a document.
00:20:05Signed by Hobart saying this is outlawed simply by.
00:20:10By the telling of all of the stories of people who threw away their glasses.
00:20:15And God blessed them or in the people who didn't get rid of their glasses and God.
00:20:20Curse them.
00:20:20That's all you have to do is tell stories like that.
00:20:24And you've already.
00:20:25Made your message and your point very clear.
00:20:27So he'd tell stories of people who threw away glasses and he.
00:20:30Tell some some hilarious ones of someone up on strawberry.
00:20:35Lake in Minnesota who threw their glasses away or was going to trust God and.
00:20:40Said lo and behold, a fisherman, an angler actually accidentally hooked the glasses.
00:20:45Brought him out of the water.
00:20:47They had his name and address.
00:20:48They mailed them to him.
00:20:50And everyone's laughing.
00:20:51That's the devil tempting you to put your glasses back.
00:20:55So when we heard Hobart tell all these stories, we all caught the hint.
00:21:00I didn't wear glasses in, so it wasn't something I had to deal with, but so many other.
00:21:05People did wear glasses and it was something for them to deal with.
00:21:08I still dealt with it.
00:21:10In this way, after I heard all of these messages about.
00:21:15Without glasses, stories, you know, it just becomes a part of it.
00:21:20And I would literally, John, I could go into a church or pick up a.
00:21:25Religious periodical that had photographs in it and I would look if any of those.
00:21:30People had glasses on, those were the ones that didn't have any faith, you know.
00:21:35You just have that, I mean, that was just part of it.
00:21:38You're just critical.
00:21:40You're anybody who had a pair of glasses on.
00:21:43And, you know, we don't know their lives.
00:21:45Life or hurt that could be the most godly of the people in the photograph and the one with.
00:21:50Without the glasses, the biggest sinner in the group, but all we could see.
00:21:55Was what was on the outside.
00:21:58So we have a.
00:22:00An excerpt from a message entitled three steps to.
00:22:05To receive your healing.
00:22:07And I've talked about the naming of his messages.
00:22:10Everything is, you know, four steps to do this, you know, eight conditions.
00:22:15Three steps for this, three steps for that.
00:22:17And, you know, living the Christian life is not.
00:22:20It's not the same as baking a cake.
00:22:22It's not.
00:22:23You've got to put so much of.
00:22:25This ingredient, carefully measure it, pour it in there and get this ingredient.
00:22:29It's just live your.
00:22:30Just love the Lord Jesus.
00:22:33Love your neighbor as yourself.
00:22:35Read his word and live the life of discipleship and seek first God's kingdom.
00:22:40As soon, and this took me obviously a while to understand.
00:22:45As soon as I came to understand what the God.
00:22:50Gospel was all about and what Christianity is all about.
00:22:53Then I was able in hindsight.
00:22:55To go back and say the three steps to receive your healing.
00:23:00Who's to say there aren't four or two or five or none, you know?
00:23:05Who's to say that there are three?
00:23:06That's just the way these ministers did it.
00:23:10So, without further ado, three steps to receive your healing.
00:23:15Healing, 54 minutes, 31 seconds to 56 minutes and 22 seconds.
00:23:20You need to be healed right where you're standing or sitting.
00:23:23You can come here and receive.
00:23:25The laying on of hands.
00:23:27If you will accept the promise.
00:23:30The terms and the conditions.
00:23:32Now, if you've come and we've prayed for you.
00:23:33Sometimes we have.
00:23:35And people will hand me their glasses and say,
00:23:37But I don't see any better.
00:23:39And they're looking like they want them.
00:23:40I don't want them to give them to me in the first place.
00:23:45I always give them back to them as soon as I hand them to me.
00:23:47But if you say, I don't see any better.
00:23:50It means you haven't come often enough to learn all the conditions.
00:23:54Don't take your...
00:23:55Don't take your glasses off until you're willing to break them.
00:23:57Don't throw them in the lake.
00:23:58Somebody will mail them to you.
00:24:00Crush them.
00:24:03Walk all over them.
00:24:05Don't do like the woman did.
00:24:08Well, do like she did ultimately.
00:24:10She said, I heard the faith teaching.
00:24:12Been on pills all of her life.
00:24:13Threw them in the wastebasket.
00:24:15Oh, but she said, I knew that wouldn't work because I knew where they were.
00:24:20So she said, I just went in the next day, got the wastebasket and took them out in the dump and burned them.
00:24:25I mean, if it's only belief, friends, don't leave a little door open.
00:24:30So that you can get in.
00:24:32I still think a lot of reasons...
00:24:34One of the reasons...
00:24:35Why eyes are not manifested and as soon as they are, it's too easy to put them back on and God just wants...
00:24:40to see if you're talking words or if you mean business.
00:24:43Of course, you can always go down and get...
00:24:45to get a prescription.
00:24:47See, it's not like a cancer.
00:24:49It's not, you know...
00:24:50God or failure with glasses.
00:24:52So that's why we recommend don't take them off.
00:24:55Until you're ready to take them off and destroy them.
00:24:59We're not going to criticize...
00:25:00If you wear them, that isn't what we're saying.
00:25:02But I just don't have a whole lot of appreciation.
00:25:05For all these people taking glasses off, six months later they got them back on.
00:25:08Now what's that do to the testimony of faith?
00:25:10So again, you hear the humor of Dr. Freeman of when...
00:25:15When you take your glasses off, don't hand them to me, break them and...
00:25:20And crush them and destroy them.
00:25:23So lest anyone say...
00:25:25John, Hobart never taught you couldn't wear glasses.
00:25:28Yes, Hobart absolutely did.
00:25:30Anything that we have covered so far, and I've referenced it...
00:25:35As a doctrine or belief of Dr. Freeman's...
00:25:40We have referenced it with respect to a particular clip from...
00:25:45And one of his messages, yes, he most definitely taught that.
00:25:48When we were talking in our...
00:25:50Last podcast, John, we played a clip, I can't even remember...
00:25:55What it was from, but I resisted the temptation to chase a rabbit...
00:26:00Because on that same tape, he used a word that later was forbidden in the church...
00:26:05And that was the word pregnant.
00:26:06By the time you got to the end of faith assembly, you had all of these...
00:26:10Young couple standing up wanting to announce that the wife is pregnant.
00:26:14So you'd have these...
00:26:15Women or these husbands excited that go to a communal...
00:26:20Microphone, there were many of them hanging from the ceiling at the new building at Faith Assembly...
00:26:25And they would say, we just want to praise the Lord and give him all the glory and just...
00:26:30Announce the fact that my wife is pregnant.
00:26:33Well, bless those poor people's...
00:26:35Hobart came out after that and said, cows and horses get pregnant.
00:26:40Women don't.
00:26:41They become with child.
00:26:43Well, I have tape...
00:26:45Where Hobart uses the word pregnant, you know, earlier in his ministry.
00:26:49So somewhere...
00:26:50Between the two, he got the truth on that, but never...
00:26:55Explain the people, how all of that came about.
00:26:58So here's another example.
00:27:00On a message done in 1975 entitled...
00:27:05Seven Channels to Faith or Doubt, 31 Minutes and Fifty...
00:27:10Fifteen seconds to 34 Minutes and Six...
00:27:15Fifty seconds, let me just introduce that a little bit first of all.
00:27:18He's talking about why is it...
00:27:20That the ungodly get to live a long, healthy life and sometimes die.
00:27:25Go to the grave and in peace and good health.
00:27:28Then he brings out this story...
00:27:30Of Dr. John G. Lake, no germ could live on his body...
00:27:35He went in places where the bubonic plague was.
00:27:38They would take the spitim from a...
00:27:40Look at it under a microscope.
00:27:42It's swarming with germs.
00:27:43Put it on the back of his hand.
00:27:45Then put it back under the microscope.
00:27:46All those germs were dead.
00:27:49He had the spirit of...
00:27:50The law, the life of liberty of Christ Jesus in his body and nothing...
00:27:55Could touch him.
00:27:55You should read the sermons of Dr. John G. Lake.
00:27:58Then he goes on to talk about...
00:28:00Kenneth Hagin has lived in divine health.
00:28:02Hasn't been sick for 30 years.
00:28:05And then he says, I've had no personal medication going on nine years in my life.
00:28:10No sick calls.
00:28:11I've never get called to a sick member of the church.
00:28:15Isn't this great?
00:28:16Isn't this wonderful?
00:28:19They...
00:28:20They were believing almost to the point of you can't die message.
00:28:25Because how would you die, you know, if you're never going to die of some kind of...
00:28:30Sickness or illness.
00:28:31Of course, that was...
00:28:32That's a goal of everyone to go to sleep.
00:28:35One night peacefully and not wake up the next morning on this earth.
00:28:39That would be...
00:28:40That would be wonderful.
00:28:40And that happens occasionally, but not that often.
00:28:43So, if you can't...
00:28:45And now, John, play that so people can hear seven channels to faith or...
00:28:50Doubt with that whole context.
00:28:53Where you're never in bed.
00:28:54I'm...
00:28:55I've never been bed fast in all these years.
00:28:56I've never doctored the door of a doctor or a hospital except to visit somebody.
00:29:00And not members of our church.
00:29:02Amen.
00:29:05That's right.
00:29:09That's...
00:29:09That's...
00:29:10That doesn't have to be true because I tell that everywhere I go.
00:29:12I said, what do you think it'd be like to be pastor of a church?
00:29:15Where you never make a sick call.
00:29:17Never, never, never make a sick call.
00:29:20Hallelujah.
00:29:21Hallelujah.
00:29:23Hallelujah.
00:29:26Oh, I tell you.
00:29:28People wonder why...
00:29:30It concentrates so much on this faith message, friends.
00:29:32It delivers me to be able to do other things.
00:29:35To make mature disciples.
00:29:38Why they walk broken legs and broken arms.
00:29:40Arms out here just like it was a mosquito bite.
00:29:45Almost literally that is true.
00:29:48Praise the Lord.
00:29:50But as I say, people can't talk anything but doubt and fear and unbelief and the negative.
00:29:55You see, if you listen to much of that, you listen to a man like Grubb and you read his writings, you're going to absorb...
00:30:00Or assimilate some of that unbelief.
00:30:01And I've already mentioned this pathetic article.
00:30:05In the Logos and New Wine magazine, Faith or Presumption, written by...
00:30:10I'm a professor at ORU and we have to call black, black, white, white or it won't help you and you can't help others.
00:30:15When they start printing that sort of stuff and when they allow professors to teach what he taught there.
00:30:20Killing the faith of people, it just renders a man in a state of indecision.
00:30:25To believe that there's some distinction with regard to Logos and Horema.
00:30:30You know, that you have to wait for a definite revelation that some promise that you're...
00:30:35Claiming applies to you or you can't appropriate it.
00:30:38We can never lay hands on anybody and say...
00:30:40In the name of Jesus, we know you're healed.
00:30:42That's presumption.
00:30:43The article of faith or presumption, you see.
00:30:45And so they cite one or two examples of some people who didn't have...
00:30:50The faith or if you knew all the details, you can see where they missed it and say they almost died.
00:30:55And all that kind of business after they were prayed for.
00:30:57It's a strange thing that never point to the tens of thousands...
00:31:00In fact, I would invite the brother up here to this barn to listen to some of your testimony.
00:31:05Before he writes his next article.
00:31:15But that's not the sad part.
00:31:19The sad part is that
00:31:20This article is influencing people who are on the fence
00:31:25Who can't appropriate the teaching, apparently, of faith
00:31:28Or who don't get enough of it to know how to appropriate it
00:31:30And listen to this man
00:31:32He says, I thank you very much for the article
00:31:34Faith or presumption
00:31:35Because there are times
00:31:37When knowing the word
00:31:39Claiming the word
00:31:40Confessing the word
00:31:41Believing the word
00:31:42Is not enough
00:31:43You still don't get an answer
00:31:45And then if we can do one final one
00:31:47And we won't play any more excerpts on
00:31:50Our podcast today
00:31:51But this gets us right into the
00:31:54The last part
00:31:55The last stages
00:31:55The last year of Dr. Freeman's life
00:31:58And the tone of those
00:32:00Those early messages
00:32:01I think people will notice
00:32:02Is pretty
00:32:03Um
00:32:05happy and friendly, although he still holds his beliefs.
00:32:10They're pretty strong, but by the end, the tone actually begins to change.
00:32:15And so in a message entitled, Avoiding an Unsettled Mind.
00:32:20Part two done in February of...
00:32:251984, the same year where Hobart will die later.
00:32:30From 27 minutes, 13 seconds.
00:32:35To 29 minutes and 51 seconds.
00:32:38Are you...
00:32:40Some have been, even in this church, involved in any way with medical science.
00:32:45You've had all of the teaching just tape after tape.
00:32:50Message after message, the faith book about the dangers of getting involved.
00:32:55With medical science and drugs, we don't have to rehash all of that again, but are you...
00:33:00Giving medical drugs to someone you're caring for?
00:33:04We dealt with that last...
00:33:05Each week, the person died as a result because they admitted that they were sinning against
00:33:09the Lord.
00:33:10You see, dear friends, why do we have to tell you, or should we have to tell you, that's
00:33:14the same...
00:33:15Same as you taking it yourself.
00:33:16And with the light you've got about divine healing and medical...
00:33:20Medical science, why you can expect the chastisement to come.
00:33:25Are you involved in any way with handling medical supplies or medical equipment?
00:33:30And yet, we hear of people in faith assembly...
00:33:35Have been here, I don't know how long...
00:33:38Years, many times...
00:33:40And still, we'll see the inconsistency of ministers who claim to be...
00:33:45Teaching divine healing and then go to the doctors at the first symptom themselves.
00:33:50If you don't know the answer, if you've got an old mother or a father or a relative...
00:33:55That needs medicine...
00:33:56If you don't know the answer to that, you better get in the Word and get a loan...
00:34:00Go with the Lord and find out what you should do in a situation like that.
00:34:04First of all, you shouldn't get...
00:34:05Get involved in situations like that.
00:34:06I'll just tell you ahead.
00:34:07There are answers that I'm not going to say...
00:34:10Supply them all to you, but if the choice for me would be giving medicine...
00:34:15To a relative or putting them in a nursing home since they want the medicine...
00:34:20The choice is clear to me.
00:34:21I'm not going to give them that and I'm not going to be charged with them dying on my
00:34:25hands in my house.
00:34:27You can figure these things out, friends, if you bring old people...
00:34:30Into your house, relatives or whatever...
00:34:32They have to come.
00:34:33You should know that already on your...
00:34:35In our terms.
00:34:36This is a house of faith.
00:34:38And if you get sick...
00:34:40We're not calling the doctor for you.
00:34:41We'll pray for you if you'll believe it.
00:34:43And so on.
00:34:45We'll have to settle those things beforehand.
00:34:47And yet there are people in this assembly who are paying people...
00:34:50To nurse their mothers and give them drugs and so forth.
00:34:53Friends, it was only a question of time.
00:34:55Question of time.
00:34:56Question of time until the boom falls on you.
00:34:58You've heard the teaching over the years.
00:35:00You have to make the choices, but why do you want in faith assembly where it's such a hard
00:35:05walk?
00:35:06If you're not going to walk that narrow way and that hard walk, why don't you
00:35:10just, well, find an easier road, an easier path?
00:35:15Because you're sinning against the light.
00:35:17This is the...
00:35:18Just the dreadful...
00:35:20But famous message where, as we have just heard, he...
00:35:25He has already outlawed medication.
00:35:27Everyone realizes, you know, no medication.
00:35:30No glasses.
00:35:31No doctors.
00:35:32No doctors.
00:35:33For yourself.
00:35:35But...
00:35:35But then he just begins to add to the drama and the bondage in the lives of...
00:35:40These poor people.
00:35:41No working in any kind of company.
00:35:45That produces any kind of medical equipment.
00:35:49The whole...
00:35:50The whole medical supply field, even if you are working on...
00:35:55The conveyor belt at the very back of the factory.
00:36:00That has some tube or something that might find its way into...
00:36:05To medical practice that was outlawed.
00:36:08Then he even goes further.
00:36:10Not only are you the authority and are you the one...
00:36:15The one who have control in your own life where you're not allowed to take medicine.
00:36:19You're not...
00:36:20You're not allowed to give medicine to someone else.
00:36:24I mean, it's...
00:36:25That's their life.
00:36:26That's their business.
00:36:27I think we played last week a clip where...
00:36:30Hobart said, or I think it was the time before, John, where he said he won't die of a...
00:36:35Heart attack.
00:36:36And then he yells that if you don't agree with me...
00:36:40Over the fact I won't die of a heart attack.
00:36:43You have no place in this church.
00:36:45Not only does he reserve the right to live his life...
00:36:50His own life and believe, but he wants you to believe what he believes about himself.
00:36:55And if you don't, then you're not welcome in the church.
00:36:59So in avoiding...
00:37:00No giving an unsettled mind.
00:37:01No giving medication to others.
00:37:03No taking any people...
00:37:05Into your home.
00:37:06That might require anyone...
00:37:10Anyone else even to give them medication.
00:37:13And he even mentions your...
00:37:15Elderly mother or father.
00:37:18He said, you can't...
00:37:20Take your elderly mother.
00:37:21He said, if they want medicine, if they think they need...
00:37:25We need medicine.
00:37:26He said, if they want us to pray for them, they can come in our home.
00:37:28We'll just pray for them.
00:37:29You know, I wouldn't...
00:37:30Don't want faith assembly to pray for me.
00:37:31Look at all the people that died after they got prayed for there.
00:37:35But he said, if they want medicine, they need to go to the nursing home.
00:37:40So, did he teach that if your...
00:37:45Elderly parents were going to be in need of medication that you were not...
00:37:50Allowed to have them in your home.
00:37:52You needed to send them to a nursing home.
00:37:55Absolutely.
00:37:56100%.
00:37:57That's what he taught.
00:37:58And you know how Ian did it?
00:38:00He said...
00:38:00He said, because if you don't obey what I'm telling you, God's going to lower the...
00:38:05Boom!
00:38:06On you.
00:38:07There's the kind of threat that you're going to get.
00:38:10If you don't obey what Hobart is saying.
00:38:13Have you ever wondered how the Pentecost...
00:38:15Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned...
00:38:20And through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic...
00:38:25Reformation?
00:38:26You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research...
00:38:30...website, william-branham.org.
00:38:33On the books page of the website...
00:38:35...you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley...
00:38:40...Steven Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others...
00:38:43...with links to the paper, audio...
00:38:45...and digital versions of each book.
00:38:48You can also find resources and documentation...
00:38:50...on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:38:54If you want to...
00:38:55...contribute to the cause...
00:38:56...you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the...
00:39:00...top.
00:39:01And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video...
00:39:05...the version that you're listening to or watching.
00:39:07On behalf of William Branham Historical Research...
00:39:10...we want to thank you for your support.
00:39:12When I began researching...
00:39:14...the culture...
00:39:15...the cult that I came out of...
00:39:16...and how it had progressed...
00:39:18...after William Branham died...
00:39:20...there's something psychologically interesting...
00:39:22...about what I was finding.
00:39:24There were some...
00:39:25...of the things that were taught...
00:39:26...which were fully adopted by the group...
00:39:29...whenever a brand...
00:39:30...was alive.
00:39:31...that he was repeating over...
00:39:32...and over...
00:39:33...and over...
00:39:34...again.
00:39:35...that some of the things just didn't make any sense...
00:39:38...whether it was biblically...
00:39:40...making sound biblical doctrine...
00:39:42...or just simply...
00:39:43...things that...
00:39:45...were...
00:39:46...his opinions that he was introducing...
00:39:48...into the religion...
00:39:49...that didn't make any sense...
00:39:50...and what happened over time...
00:39:52...after he had died...
00:39:53...and he couldn't defend...
00:39:54...the...
00:39:55...and reinforce those opinions...
00:39:57...some of the movements...
00:39:59...began to...
00:40:00...develop away from...
00:40:01...whatever is the thing...
00:40:02...that they cast out.
00:40:03I could give examples...
00:40:04...but...
00:40:05...it's...
00:40:06...it's irrelevant to this conversation...
00:40:08...the point I'm trying to make is...
00:40:10...whenever you create a mythology...
00:40:12...that isn't really based off of...
00:40:14...the Christian Bible...
00:40:15...but based off of the things...
00:40:16...that you're adding to it...
00:40:18...as long as the person is alive...
00:40:20...and can enforce it...
00:40:21...and can rip verses out of context...
00:40:23...and try to apply it...
00:40:24...and make people...
00:40:25...believe it...
00:40:26...there is a group of people...
00:40:28...that will believe it...
00:40:29...and accept it...
00:40:30...there's this other category...
00:40:31...of people...
00:40:32...that they may have...
00:40:33...encountered the doctrine...
00:40:34...and they said...
00:40:35...no, we're not going to accept this...
00:40:36...and they just walk away...
00:40:37...well, what is interesting to me...
00:40:39...is those people...
00:40:40...the ones that walk away...
00:40:41...who did hear it...
00:40:42...who could have accepted it...
00:40:44...and did not...
00:40:45...they're long forgotten...
00:40:47...and those are the people...
00:40:48...who stood up and said...
00:40:49...no, we're not going to take any...
00:40:50...but what happens is...
00:40:52...as the mythology continues...
00:40:53...the mythology...
00:40:54...actually...
00:40:55...grows bigger...
00:40:56...than the cult leader...
00:40:57...whenever the cult leader...
00:40:58...was alive...
00:40:59...because through...
00:41:00...cognitive dissonance...
00:41:01...like I said before...
00:41:02...they're trying to reconcile...
00:41:03...things that...
00:41:04...are just fully incompatible...
00:41:05...and again...
00:41:07...I'll keep saying this...
00:41:08...because it fascinates me...
00:41:09...with the...
00:41:10...the Hobart Freeman...
00:41:11...cult...
00:41:12...faith assembly...
00:41:13...took a person...
00:41:15...whose entire doctrine...
00:41:17...was that you don't need...
00:41:18...medicine...
00:41:19...you can heal yourself...
00:41:20...and then all of the...
00:41:22...his body just fell apart...
00:41:23...and you look at the...
00:41:25...end of the...
00:41:26...end scenario of this...
00:41:27...there is not a...
00:41:28...stitch of doctrine...
00:41:29...that was...
00:41:30...the foundation...
00:41:31...that you can really say...
00:41:33...was truthful...
00:41:34...because he...
00:41:35...died of the very things...
00:41:36...that he said he could conquer...
00:41:37...he suffered with the...
00:41:38...very things that he said...
00:41:39...he could conquer...
00:41:40...and...
00:41:41...like the point you made...
00:41:42...about...
00:41:43...Kenneth Hagen...
00:41:44...not needing a doctor...
00:41:45...and...
00:41:46...and him not needing a doctor...
00:41:47...well how can you say that...
00:41:48...you're actually lying...
00:41:49...when you say that...
00:41:50...if you have a prosthetic foot...
00:41:52...so...
00:41:53...in the end...
00:41:54...you're trying to...
00:41:55...contain something...
00:41:56...that isn't true...
00:41:57...you're trying to...
00:41:58...convince people to believe...
00:41:59...something that isn't true...
00:42:00...and then you die...
00:42:01...well after you die...
00:42:02...that turns into a mythology...
00:42:04...and...
00:42:05...part of the reason...
00:42:06...I'm so fascinated...
00:42:07...with studying...
00:42:08...the ancient mythologies...
00:42:10...if you...
00:42:11...ancient Egypt...
00:42:12...for example...
00:42:13...depending on the time period...
00:42:15...you can find a different version...
00:42:17...of each of the gods...
00:42:18...and their backstories...
00:42:20...why is that...
00:42:21...it's because...
00:42:22...the same exact thing...
00:42:23...you've got this group of people...
00:42:24...that is enforcing...
00:42:25...the idea...
00:42:26...the people are indoctrinated...
00:42:27...well those people die out...
00:42:28...and then...
00:42:29...the next...
00:42:30...this group of people says...
00:42:31...well that just didn't make sense...
00:42:32...let's invent this new story...
00:42:34...and so the story...
00:42:35...continues to grow...
00:42:36...until the mythology...
00:42:37...actually...
00:42:38...grows far bigger...
00:42:39...than what it was to be...
00:42:40...to begin with...
00:42:41...and a lot of what...
00:42:42...you see with the ancient mythologies...
00:42:44...I'm seeing...
00:42:45...the Hobart Freeman's...
00:42:46...Faith Assembly...
00:42:47...called...
00:42:48...this thing has grown...
00:42:49...and...
00:42:50...and then...
00:42:51...there come a point...
00:42:52...whenever...
00:42:53...now you've got...
00:42:54...cult members who are...
00:42:55...dying themselves...
00:42:56...medicine...
00:42:57...and the people are starting...
00:42:58...to die out...
00:42:59...so...
00:43:00...in a way...
00:43:01...what...
00:43:02...what happened...
00:43:03...with Hobart Freeman...
00:43:04...that was his destruction...
00:43:05...it starts to become...
00:43:06...the destruction...
00:43:07...of the whole group...
00:43:08...because they're adopting...
00:43:09...the same practices...
00:43:10...and yet...
00:43:11...the group still continues...
00:43:12...so you've got...
00:43:13...on the one side...
00:43:14...of the people...
00:43:15...who are staying in this...
00:43:16...you've got...
00:43:17...another group of people...
00:43:18...who are leaving it...
00:43:19...and here's where it gets...
00:43:20...weird...
00:43:21...there's this group of people...
00:43:22...who are in between...
00:43:23...they're kind of caught in...
00:43:24...limbo between...
00:43:25...do I believe it...
00:43:26...I can't believe everything...
00:43:27...do I not believe it...
00:43:28...I can't drop everything...
00:43:30...and that's really...
00:43:31...for me...
00:43:32...that's the reason...
00:43:33...why we do this...
00:43:34...I feel so sorry...
00:43:35...the people in the middle...
00:43:36...have rejected certain...
00:43:37...the people in the middle...
00:43:38...have rejected certain...
00:43:40...aspects of Dr. Freeman's...
00:43:42...teaching...
00:43:43...but...
00:43:44...they haven't been...
00:43:45...able to understand...
00:43:46...that the...
00:43:47...the whole warp...
00:43:48...and woof...
00:43:49...of his...
00:43:50...ministry...
00:43:51...and his message...
00:43:52...was...
00:43:53...was just not...
00:43:54...a godly ministry...
00:43:55...or message...
00:43:56...but you know...
00:43:57...my naivete...
00:43:58...was revealed...
00:43:59...in...
00:44:00...the fact that...
00:44:01...whenever things...
00:44:02...began to go south...
00:44:04...I was...
00:44:05...I was...
00:44:05...you know...
00:44:06...I loved those people...
00:44:07...and I thought we were...
00:44:08...all together...
00:44:10...you know...
00:44:11...with this...
00:44:12...we were the...
00:44:13...end-time body...
00:44:14...and I thought...
00:44:15...they would be...
00:44:16...open...
00:44:17...to...
00:44:18...discussion...
00:44:20...and...
00:44:20...pointing out...
00:44:21...wait a minute...
00:44:22...Hobart said this...
00:44:23...and this didn't...
00:44:24...and of course...
00:44:25...when he died...
00:44:25...that's the huge...
00:44:26...that's the biggest thing...
00:44:27...the dude is dead...
00:44:29...that goes...
00:44:30...contrary to...
00:44:31...every single thing...
00:44:32...he ever taught...
00:44:33...surely...
00:44:34...we can...
00:44:35...have a conversation...
00:44:36...now...
00:44:37...and that's what...
00:44:38...I desperately...
00:44:39...tried to do...
00:44:40...but...
00:44:41...and I beat my head...
00:44:42...against the wall...
00:44:43...for a few years...
00:44:44...and then I just...
00:44:45...walked away...
00:44:45...and...
00:44:46...been happy...
00:44:47...ever since...
00:44:48...until today...
00:44:49...when...
00:44:50...you know...
00:44:50...come back to...
00:44:51...beating my head...
00:44:52...against it...
00:44:53...but you know...
00:44:54...the standard cult...
00:44:55...members...
00:44:55...member behavior...
00:44:56...seems to be...
00:44:57...John...
00:44:58...to protect...
00:44:59...that...
00:45:00...that leader...
00:45:01...at all cost...
00:45:02...even though...
00:45:03...we played...
00:45:04...all these clips...
00:45:05...even though...
00:45:05...even though...
00:45:06...people have said...
00:45:07...well you guys...
00:45:08...are actually...
00:45:09...time stamping...
00:45:10...the clips...
00:45:10...there's not any way...
00:45:11...we can...
00:45:12...dispute...
00:45:13...these...
00:45:14...claims...
00:45:15...against Hobart...
00:45:15...and again...
00:45:17...all thanks to...
00:45:18...the people...
00:45:19...responsible...
00:45:20...for putting the message...
00:45:20...online...
00:45:21...I hope they don't...
00:45:22...feel like they have...
00:45:23...shot themselves...
00:45:24...in the foot...
00:45:25...but it's been...
00:45:25...a great resource...
00:45:26...for everyone...
00:45:27...to go...
00:45:28...listen to themselves...
00:45:29...and look...
00:45:30...if you still...
00:45:30...love and trust...
00:45:31...and believe Dr. Freeman...
00:45:32...you know...
00:45:33...that's your decision...
00:45:34...in life...
00:45:35...and...
00:45:35...thankfully...
00:45:36...someone has made...
00:45:37...messages available...
00:45:38...all of them...
00:45:39...for you to listen to...
00:45:40...but...
00:45:40...for those who don't...
00:45:41...agree...
00:45:42...or want to follow...
00:45:43...then the resources...
00:45:44...are there...
00:45:45...so it's almost...
00:45:46...to me...
00:45:47...as I try to process...
00:45:48...how is this...
00:45:50...what is going on...
00:45:52...the...
00:45:53...the cult members...
00:45:54...want to...
00:45:55...protect...
00:45:56...the leader...
00:45:57...at all cost...
00:45:58...he's...
00:45:58...he's gone...
00:46:00...you know...
00:46:01...he's dead...
00:46:02...he can't protect himself...
00:46:03...they want to protect him...
00:46:04...and I think...
00:46:05...when you've been...
00:46:06...in an abusive relationship...
00:46:08...for so...
00:46:09...many years...
00:46:10...I guess...
00:46:12...and I'm not a psychologist...
00:46:14...or psychiatrist...
00:46:15...but I guess...
00:46:16...it's just the mindset...
00:46:18...to be willing...
00:46:20...to take the fall...
00:46:21...for the leader...
00:46:23...he's no longer here...
00:46:24...but I want to...
00:46:25...argue against...
00:46:26...everything you guys...
00:46:27...are saying...
00:46:28...about Dr. Freeman...
00:46:29...so in conclusion...
00:46:30...with...
00:46:31...what we have left today...
00:46:33...I want to return...
00:46:34...back to Dr. Freeman...
00:46:35...Feed...
00:46:36...because I thought...
00:46:37...we kind of felt...
00:46:38...a little bit rushed...
00:46:39...at the end of the last one...
00:46:40...and...
00:46:41...you know...
00:46:42...he told us himself...
00:46:43...and we've played...
00:46:44...I've gave...
00:46:45...all of the evidence...
00:46:46...for this...
00:46:47...the problems...
00:46:48...that he had...
00:46:49...with both of his feet...
00:46:50...he had...
00:46:53...polio...
00:46:54...as a young...
00:46:55...child...
00:46:56...which...
00:46:57...unfortunately...
00:46:58...affected his right foot...
00:46:59...he was run over...
00:47:00...by a big factory...
00:47:00...truck...
00:47:01...that affected his left...
00:47:02...um...
00:47:03...he had gotten...
00:47:04...Mark 11...
00:47:05...20...
00:47:05...24...
00:47:06...in the summer of 1966...
00:47:08...when he went to a...
00:47:09...conference...
00:47:10...a deliverance...
00:47:11...meeting and conference...
00:47:12...that was...
00:47:13...kind of spearheaded...
00:47:14...by Gordon...
00:47:15...Lindsey...
00:47:16...and...
00:47:17...and...
00:47:18...we have a lot...
00:47:19...we probably have...
00:47:20...almost...
00:47:20...all of the documentation...
00:47:21...about that...
00:47:22...and we will address...
00:47:23...that in the future...
00:47:24...for the people...
00:47:25...truly interested in...
00:47:27...the historical background...
00:47:28...where did Freeman...
00:47:29...get this stuff...
00:47:30...where does Anna Schrader...
00:47:31...come into the picture...
00:47:33...where does the...
00:47:34...manifestation...
00:47:35...of the sons of God...
00:47:37...where do...
00:47:38...matured sons...
00:47:39...ideas...
00:47:40...come into it...
00:47:41...well, we'll get to that...
00:47:42...God willing...
00:47:43...later...
00:47:44...but at this meeting...
00:47:45...Kenneth Hagen...
00:47:46...was one of the keynote...
00:47:47...speakers...
00:47:48...and if anybody knows...
00:47:49...Kenneth Hagen...
00:47:50...was on the scene...
00:47:51...long before...
00:47:52...Hobart Freeman...
00:47:53...was in the charismatic movement...
00:47:54...and Kenneth Hagen's...
00:47:55...first...
00:47:55...was Mark 11, 24...
00:47:57...that's where Hobart...
00:47:58...got his teaching on...
00:48:00...you pray...
00:48:01...you claim...
00:48:02...you believe...
00:48:03...you receive it then...
00:48:04...and then when...
00:48:05...wherever it's manifested...
00:48:06...it could be...
00:48:07...a moment...
00:48:07...a month...
00:48:08...it might be a millennium...
00:48:09...who knows...
00:48:10...but...
00:48:10...you have it...
00:48:11...regardless...
00:48:12...and yet...
00:48:13...as I...
00:48:14...I believe that again...
00:48:15...I've said this over...
00:48:16...and over on these...
00:48:17...podcasts...
00:48:18...I believe these things...
00:48:19...when I first...
00:48:20...heard them...
00:48:21...because that's what...
00:48:22...I was taught...
00:48:23...but...
00:48:24...over the process...
00:48:25...of the next few years...
00:48:26...all...
00:48:26...I didn't have to do anything...
00:48:28...but listen to his...
00:48:30...messages...
00:48:31...I didn't have to read my Bible...
00:48:32...I could have left my Bible...
00:48:33...totally closed...
00:48:35...and I listened to his messages...
00:48:36...and I thought...
00:48:37...wait a minute...
00:48:38...you're telling everyone...
00:48:40...to throw away their classes...
00:48:42...no medicine...
00:48:43...no crutches...
00:48:45...no canes...
00:48:46...no wheelchairs...
00:48:47...if you...
00:48:48...have received your healing...
00:48:50...go act like it...
00:48:52...and yet...
00:48:53...I'm finding out...
00:48:54...from your own...
00:48:56...lips...
00:48:57...I didn't have to do any...
00:48:58...investigative research...
00:48:59...for this one...
00:49:00...that you're not practicing that...
00:49:02...that you have something wrong...
00:49:04...at that time...
00:49:05...I thought...
00:49:06...was with...
00:49:07...only one of the feet...
00:49:08...I didn't realize...
00:49:09...because we didn't know more detail...
00:49:10...until later messages...
00:49:11...that he had something wrong...
00:49:12...with both of them...
00:49:13...and you are...
00:49:15...carrying a new pair of shoes...
00:49:18...around...
00:49:19...in the trunk of...
00:49:20...of your Cadillac...
00:49:22...while you wait...
00:49:23...for the manifestation...
00:49:24...of your...
00:49:25...feet...
00:49:26...that's a real...
00:49:27...curious exception...
00:49:28...how is it...
00:49:29...everyone else is...
00:49:30...required to discard stuff...
00:49:32...but the leader isn't...
00:49:34...and...
00:49:35...I don't know...
00:49:36...John...
00:49:37...how I...
00:49:38...first...
00:49:39...dealt with that...
00:49:40...it probably just...
00:49:40...goes over your head...
00:49:42...probably...
00:49:43...as a...
00:49:44...18...
00:49:45...or...
00:49:45...year-old...
00:49:46...I probably heard that...
00:49:47...when I was 17...
00:49:48...probably goes over your head...
00:49:49...I mean...
00:49:50...you're just so excited...
00:49:50...about all the positive promises...
00:49:52...of the Word of God...
00:49:53...you're not...
00:49:53...you're not even thinking about...
00:49:55...or looking for...
00:49:56...any inconsistencies...
00:49:58...in the leader...
00:49:59...but as you go...
00:50:00...and as he goes on...
00:50:02...to...
00:50:03...continue to elevate himself...
00:50:05...saying I am the only one...
00:50:07...that God has given...
00:50:08...the entire...
00:50:09...in...
00:50:10...time message to...
00:50:12...then I go...
00:50:13...whoa...
00:50:14...if you are the only one...
00:50:15...then we have some...
00:50:16...serious problems here...
00:50:17...in your...
00:50:17...in your past life...
00:50:19...he was...
00:50:20...absolutely opposed...
00:50:21...to any kind of other...
00:50:23...I don't know...
00:50:24...mechanical...
00:50:25...aids or mechanical devices...
00:50:27...and yet...
00:50:28...he had it...
00:50:29...himself...
00:50:30...so...
00:50:31...I needed to be able...
00:50:32...to make sense...
00:50:33...with that...
00:50:34...in my...
00:50:35...in my...
00:50:36...20s...
00:50:37...and I was having...
00:50:38...a hard time...
00:50:39...doing that...
00:50:40...so when I would...
00:50:41...raise a question...
00:50:42...even...
00:50:43...previous to Dr. Freeman's...
00:50:45...death...
00:50:46...when I would...
00:50:47...raise a question...
00:50:48...absolutely...
00:50:49...immediately...
00:50:50...shunned...
00:50:51...blackballed...
00:50:52...and labeled...
00:50:53...and I just thought...
00:50:54...and I think...
00:50:55...to this day...
00:50:56...that was so unfair...
00:50:57...because I think I had...
00:50:58...a valid question...
00:50:59...and I wasn't...
00:51:00...angry or mad...
00:51:01...at anyone...
00:51:02...I'm not angry...
00:51:03...or mad at anyone...
00:51:04...to this day...
00:51:05...had a valid question...
00:51:06...my mind has just...
00:51:08...ticked in that way...
00:51:09...how can I...
00:51:10...can it be that...
00:51:11...I can't wear glasses...
00:51:12...but you can wear...
00:51:13...an orthopedic shoe...
00:51:14...I didn't understand...
00:51:15...somebody explain to me...
00:51:17...what the difference...
00:51:18...and I actually...
00:51:19...have heard a few...
00:51:20...attempts to explain that...
00:51:21...but again...
00:51:22...they're just justifying...
00:51:23...the leader...
00:51:24...everyone wants to preserve...
00:51:25...the reputation...
00:51:27...of the...
00:51:28...and the mystique...
00:51:30...they want to...
00:51:31...preserve that...
00:51:32...for the leader...
00:51:33...at all costs...
00:51:33...and they're willing...
00:51:34...to take the fall...
00:51:35...from him...
00:51:36...for that...
00:51:36...but what my mind...
00:51:38...John said...
00:51:39...is...
00:51:40...wait a minute...
00:51:40...you've quoted this...
00:51:41...Jeremiah 17...
00:51:42...5...
00:51:42...cursed is a man...
00:51:43...that trusted the man...
00:51:44...and maketh...
00:51:45...flesh's arm...
00:51:45...you've quoted that...
00:51:46...a thousand times...
00:51:48...and you've interpreted...
00:51:49...that to mean...
00:51:49...that the...
00:51:50...the...
00:51:50...arm of the flesh...
00:51:51...one of their favorite phrases...
00:51:53...is...
00:51:54...anything...
00:51:55...besides...
00:51:56...just prayer...
00:51:57...anything...
00:51:58...besides...
00:51:58...simply prayer...
00:51:59...and faith...
00:52:00...in God...
00:52:00...is the arm of the flesh...
00:52:01...so no medicines...
00:52:03...no crutches...
00:52:03...no canes...
00:52:05...no wheelchairs...
00:52:07...someone...
00:52:08...has told me...
00:52:09...they're...
00:52:10...they're...
00:52:10...there were...
00:52:11...well plenty of people...
00:52:12...I've heard from...
00:52:13...they wore glasses...
00:52:14...until they got to the...
00:52:15...park...
00:52:15...parking lot...
00:52:15...and they stuck them...
00:52:16...in their glove compartment...
00:52:17...because they didn't want to go in...
00:52:19...and be...
00:52:20...you know...
00:52:20...in a house of faith...
00:52:22...wearing glasses...
00:52:23...knowing that everyone's...
00:52:23...going to be staring at them...
00:52:25...even the people that couldn't see...
00:52:26...because they didn't have glasses...
00:52:28...would be staring at them...
00:52:29...and I've heard...
00:52:30...heard that...
00:52:31...people who needed a wheelchair...
00:52:33...you weren't about to roll a wheelchair...
00:52:34...down a...
00:52:35...in aisle at Faith Assembly...
00:52:36...they would pick up...
00:52:37...a person out of their car...
00:52:39...bring him...
00:52:40...and carry them...
00:52:41...and set them down...
00:52:43...what difference does it make...
00:52:45...it was just so...
00:52:47...rabidly...
00:52:48...majoring on...
00:52:50...the minors...
00:52:51...you know...
00:52:51...who cares...
00:52:52...get the...
00:52:53...let the person come in...
00:52:54...on their...
00:52:55...crutches...
00:52:55...or cane...
00:52:57...or wheelchair...
00:52:58...Jesus let those people...
00:52:59...come around...
00:53:00...with him like that...
00:53:01...and then guess what...
00:53:02...he just healed them...
00:53:04...faith...
00:53:05...the Fifth Assembly didn't have...
00:53:06...Dr. Freeman didn't have...
00:53:07...any power to do that...
00:53:08...that's why you don't want...
00:53:09...those people in there...
00:53:10...Jesus didn't mind...
00:53:11...the lepers around him...
00:53:13...the blind...
00:53:14...the people...
00:53:15...the people with withered hands...
00:53:16...the people with withered legs...
00:53:18...he didn't mind those people...
00:53:19...around him at all...
00:53:20...bring them to his church...
00:53:21...because when they came...
00:53:23...to Jesus' church...
00:53:24...or the church of the...
00:53:25...apostles...
00:53:26...they just heal those people...
00:53:28...so I saw this...
00:53:30...wearing of the orthopedic shoes...
00:53:33...as a...
00:53:35...leaning to the arm of the flesh...
00:53:38...by Hef's definition...
00:53:39...not by...
00:53:40...by my definition...
00:53:41...I mean if you can't walk...
00:53:42...find out a way to walk...
00:53:44...by any means...
00:53:45...I'm not opposed to orthopedic shoes...
00:53:46...at all...
00:53:47...I'm saying by...
00:53:49...Hef's definition...
00:53:50...leaning to the arm of the flesh...
00:53:53...that was contradicted...
00:53:55...by the shoes that were being worn...
00:53:57...He says you've got to act your face...
00:54:00...act your faith means get rid of everything...
00:54:03...so He is acting...
00:54:05...contrary to His confession...
00:54:07...again by His own definition...
00:54:10...and so what happened...
00:54:11...was He had to get these orthopedic shoes...
00:54:15...the company that he had bought them from...
00:54:17...in Chicago...
00:54:18...went out of business...
00:54:20...he had to find orthopedic shoes...
00:54:22...from another source...
00:54:24...he bought those...
00:54:25...they were improper fit...
00:54:27...he continued to wear them...
00:54:30...wearing them led to a blister...
00:54:32...the blister led to a boil...
00:54:34...the boil...
00:54:35...lead to an open wound...
00:54:37...the open wound led to a hole in his...
00:54:40...left ankle...
00:54:42...the hole in the ankle...
00:54:43...led to gangrene...
00:54:45...and the gangrene led to death...
00:54:48...and so even on...
00:54:50...the coroner's verdict...
00:54:52...which is a legal document...
00:54:54...not a medical document...
00:54:55...and we gave...
00:54:57...John last time...
00:54:58...you know...
00:54:59...there's all kinds of...
00:55:00...statutes for every state...
00:55:02...pursuant to...
00:55:03...Indiana Code 36-2...
00:55:05...14-18...
00:55:07...and I have talked to...
00:55:08...an attorney...
00:55:09...I have an attorney...
00:55:10...in Indiana...
00:55:11...who's been able to answer...
00:55:12...questions for me...
00:55:13...regarding the legality...
00:55:14...of certain things...
00:55:15...there are basic...
00:55:17...pieces of information...
00:55:19...that are...
00:55:20...are simply required...
00:55:21...to be made public...
00:55:23...especially...
00:55:24...if the person...
00:55:25...is of...
00:55:27...a noteworthy...
00:55:28...historical...
00:55:29...nature...
00:55:30...I mean...
00:55:31...you can't go get information...
00:55:32...on your next-door neighbor...
00:55:33...when they pass away...
00:55:35...is someone...
00:55:36...who is of...
00:55:37...historical...
00:55:38...importance...
00:55:39...and...
00:55:40...you know...
00:55:40...there are different laws...
00:55:41...that apply there...
00:55:42...but even on the coroner's report...
00:55:44...they...
00:55:45...the...
00:55:46...cause of death...
00:55:47...I'm not going to read...
00:55:48...all of this...
00:55:49...save some of it for later...
00:55:50...severe...
00:55:51...cardiovascular disease...
00:55:53...contributory factor...
00:55:56...um...
00:55:57...gangrene...
00:55:58...necrosis...
00:55:59...of...
00:56:00...of...
00:56:01...the left foot...
00:56:02...and actually...
00:56:03...then there are a lot of different...
00:56:04...medical documents...
00:56:05...but what he actually had...
00:56:07...was called...
00:56:09...gas...
00:56:10...gangrene...
00:56:11...and here's what that is...
00:56:12...gas...
00:56:13...gangrene...
00:56:14...is a rare...
00:56:15...life-threatening...
00:56:16...bacterial...
00:56:17...infection...
00:56:18...that destroys...
00:56:19...muscle...
00:56:20...tissue...
00:56:21...causing...
00:56:22...severe...
00:56:23...pain...
00:56:24...rapid...
00:56:25...dwelling...
00:56:26...fowl-smelling...
00:56:27...discharge...
00:56:28...skin discoloration...
00:56:29...and...
00:56:30...gas...
00:56:30...under the skin...
00:56:31...it's caused...
00:56:32...by deep wounds...
00:56:33...or trauma...
00:56:34...where...
00:56:35...bacteria...
00:56:36...thrives...
00:56:37...in low oxygen...
00:56:38...treatment demands...
00:56:39...immediate surgery...
00:56:40...including...
00:56:40...saving...
00:56:41...amputation...
00:56:42...high doses...
00:56:43...of antibiotics...
00:56:44...like penicillin...
00:56:45...and...
00:56:45...hyperbaric oxygen...
00:56:46...therapy...
00:56:47...to prevent...
00:56:48...the rapid spread...
00:56:49...shock...
00:56:50...and death...
00:56:50...of...
00:56:51...of...
00:56:52...this person...
00:56:53...what...
00:56:54...poor...
00:56:55...Dr. Freeman...
00:56:56...was going through...
00:56:55was was terrible and i don't well i don't like to see anybody suffer i don't even want to see an
00:56:59animal
00:57:00suffer let alone a human being suffer whether i agree with her doctrine or not me disagreeing
00:57:05with her doctrine has nothing to do with my feeling
00:57:10toward a fellow human being i would not want to see anyone i wouldn't want to see my
00:57:15worst enemy have to have to go through what dr freeman probably
00:57:20had to go through
00:57:21so i just wanted to make sure that we understand
00:57:25underscored well enough the fact that there was a
00:57:29con
00:57:30contradiction between his teaching and his practice and we all have had that in our life myself
00:57:35included that's not the end of of the day or the story
00:57:40the problem is he he was causing so much death
00:57:45and discomfort and pain in everybody's life by making them
00:57:49discord
00:57:50discord their devices but he wasn't doing it himself and
00:57:54and
00:57:54and
00:57:55it's just almost ironic that by him not doing that
00:58:00himself it led to all of this personal suffering and it was
00:58:05a
00:58:05contributing factor in his own death
00:58:07here's the problem that i have with it
00:58:10and it goes far beyond freeman freeman freeman is just one person in a long
00:58:15line of people doing the same thing
00:58:16if i'm teaching my children
00:58:20children something and i want them to learn it's usually something that they don't really
00:58:25have to do but i want to teach them a new skill so if i'm teaching maybe i don't
00:58:30know hanging hanging studs in a house with with a hammer and i'm teaching
00:58:35them how to use the hammer well if they smack their hand and hurt it real bad and injure
00:58:39themselves
00:58:40themselves i'm not going to make them continue this i'm going to say sit off to the side until
00:58:44you learn how
00:58:45you learn how to do it properly
00:58:46you learn how to do it properly i have another son i was teaching him to be a mechanic and i was
00:58:50having him work on his car i watched him jack up the car and i saw him start to crawl on
00:58:55under it without putting a jack stand in and i said son you got to protect
00:59:00yourself you before you do something dangerous you have to have to have a jack stand so the car doesn't
00:59:05fall on you and crush you that's me a showing that i want
00:59:10to teach my children something but i want to protect them while i'm teaching them and i don't
00:59:15want them to put themselves into a position of risk while i'm teaching them with
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01:03:02Hobart Freeman I can't say that he had the stuff but I can say that
01:03:05he had put himself into a position where he's above everybody else he fed on that
01:03:10power that elitism they rise up to that position and they don't care about the people
01:03:15who are dying they don't care about the people who are suffering and again say
01:03:20it's a true doctrine say that you believe that their version of divine healing is true which I
01:03:25have strong questions about if you really believe that you would
01:03:30you wouldn't expect people to die for it you would try to train them until they could do it
01:03:35without dying but the problem that I have with this type of movement is they don't
01:03:40care about the people they only care about themselves they're not focusing on core Christianity
01:03:44they're trying
01:03:45trying to take something that is extra and put the focus on it and in the end if you
01:03:50really follow that out to its logical conclusion it is a full distraction from the gospel
01:03:55yes it may be part of the Bible yes it may be I'm not going to argue that it is or isn't
01:04:00but it is a distraction for the gospel John there's nothing I could add to what you just
01:04:05said that's exactly the way over the years that I processed it I
01:04:10tried as best I could to even separate and we've done it on these podcasts
01:04:15the biblical arguments I said we can argue until the cows come home over this first
01:04:20let's just forget about that for the moment and let's just go look at the facts and the facts are
01:04:25it didn't work and the facts are in the New Testament it did work so somebody's got
01:04:30something wrong you know somebody has something wrong so
01:04:35you know I really can't improve on what you just said
01:04:40well for once I've got Chinno tongue-tied
01:04:45well this has been fun there's so much more to talk about and like I said I just want to help
01:04:50the people and there's a lot of people who have been misled into thinking that it's okay
01:04:55for family members to have died and I just strongly say that that is not
01:05:00the case this is not a movement by God so thank you so much for doing this yeah thanks for having me
01:05:05John well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at william.com
01:05:10for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation you can read weapons
01:05:15you can find us at william.com
01:05:20you can find us at william.com
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