- 4 minutes ago
Sheryl Lee Ralph sits down with Jackée Harry for a conversation on their Hollywood trajectories and the Emmy win that will forever tie them together.
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00:00You and I sitting here and we're over 40, over 50, welcome 60, hey, but we're both still working.
00:11How rare is that?
00:13Speak on the crew.
00:14What people don't know is it is easy to disappear in the industry.
00:20You know, after 40, you just don't see people anymore.
00:23I didn't think I'd be working today.
00:24I thought I'd be in San Diego and retired in my condo somewhere near the beach, you know, with young boys, you know.
00:30Really?
00:31Well, not too young.
00:31Maybe 50.
00:32Okay.
00:3250-51.
00:35In my mind, I always said to myself, I was going to be Betty White Black.
00:40Why?
00:41That I was, oh, because, Jackie, I love what I do.
00:51Hey, girl.
00:52Hey, Jackie.
00:53Hey, Jackie.
00:54Hey, Jackie.
00:55Hey.
00:56For those who don't know, I'm Jackie Harry.
00:58And I'm Sherrilee Ralph.
00:59That's right.
01:00And I have been waiting for this moment.
01:02Well, let's get the elephant out of the room right away.
01:04Okay, come on.
01:06Congratulations.
01:09And let me tell you this.
01:10Yes.
01:10You may quote me or whatever you like.
01:13Water seeks its own level.
01:15Remember that.
01:15I don't know who told me that.
01:17I don't know if it was Dr. Maya Angelou or Oprah.
01:20Meaning, when you look across the room, you like to see somebody who's right there with
01:25you or better.
01:26And I'm so happy for you.
01:28And I didn't even know I'd be this happy.
01:30Oh.
01:30How can you know?
01:31How can you know?
01:33Yeah, because being the first is hard.
01:37Yeah.
01:37Being the second is harder.
01:39Yeah.
01:40But it's fabulous.
01:43And who knew?
01:45Yes.
01:45But I was so...
01:46When it happened, I immediately kept thinking from Jackie to me in a span of 35 years.
01:57Years.
01:58Years.
01:59And the fact that no one like us, remotely like us, nominated...
02:07I mean, it was just crazy.
02:08But you have an advantage.
02:10What's that?
02:10Social media.
02:12Oh.
02:12And you're able to spread that knowledge because people didn't think about it.
02:15I never thought about it.
02:16I mean, because I don't go around saying, I'm the first, I'm the first, I'm the first.
02:20But you were the first and only.
02:22Yeah.
02:23But I don't...
02:23For a long time.
02:24Yeah, I never thought about it.
02:26So you're my social consciousness.
02:28Well, thank you.
02:29Uh-huh.
02:29So I get to raise us both up.
02:31There you go.
02:32And, you know, we came up along the same lines, but we didn't come up doing the same stuff.
02:38Right.
02:39And I met you, I don't know if you remember, I met you through Ed Love, who was a mutual
02:42friend of ours, who was past.
02:43Oh, my God, yes.
02:44And he brought me to your show.
02:46You were at maybe Mama's, Don't Tell Mama's or something.
02:48Don't Tell Mama's, yes.
02:49And you were fabulous.
02:50We had a fabulous time.
02:52He said, this girl's going to be a star.
02:53And I'm like, how do you know?
02:56And you were on your path from there.
02:59And after that, you went to Hollywood before a lot of us.
03:03You got there early.
03:05Yeah.
03:06Right?
03:07Yeah, I got there early because...
03:08It was all by accident.
03:10You know, I was doing this whole singing thing for the USO, United Services Organization.
03:16And I took one tour of duty around one side of the universe, one side of the world, and
03:22then I went around the other side of the world, and all at the grace and request of, you know,
03:30Uncle Sam.
03:31Right.
03:32And it was amazing.
03:33But when I came around the Pacific side, I got off the plane, and I said, there's something for me here.
03:40And I was young.
03:42I only had the money that I had just earned.
03:44I didn't know where I was going to stay.
03:46I didn't know what I was going to do that evening.
03:48And I called my dad, and he had just hung up the phone.
03:51Oh, I also met.
03:52A lot of people don't know that.
03:53And let me just say, it had nothing to do with nothing to do.
03:56It had everything to do when you were, oh, God, we don't have as much time to talk,
04:01but when you were doing the workshop for Dreamgirls, and a lot of people don't know this,
04:04I started out with the workshop for Dreamgirls when it was called One Night Only.
04:09And then project, project now started, project number nine, One Night Only, Dreamgirls.
04:14Yes.
04:15But I got the soap, and I went another different whole path.
04:17A whole other path.
04:18But I started out with Nell Carter, the late, great Nell Carter.
04:23She was Effie.
04:24She used to sing her songs upside down, child.
04:26It's so interesting, though.
04:28A lot of people don't know, because you used to sing all the time.
04:33I used to always try to get you to do divas, and you said, no, girl, I don't do that anymore.
04:37Why not?
04:37You have such a great voice.
04:40I didn't have the discipline, what it takes to take care of your voice for eight shows a week.
04:45Ah, gotcha.
04:46You know, and I did a lot of it, but you did the whole, you did that whole experience.
04:49Because I used to, you know, Loretta Devine and I like this.
04:51A lot of people don't know it, but she was able to do that discipline, you know, that it takes to do, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, two matinees on set.
05:00I mean, y'all, and get vocal rest.
05:02That's right.
05:02And you've got one night a week to really relax.
05:04Just one.
05:05And then you've got to start all over again.
05:06You've got one day.
05:07And so I didn't, I said, I don't know, I don't feel like doing all that.
05:11But I happen to be funny.
05:12There you go.
05:13Very funny.
05:14But I remember you from Dreamgirls, like everybody does.
05:16The original Dina Jones.
05:17Let's just get that elephant off the way, too.
05:20Well, thank you.
05:20And fabulous.
05:21But I must say, when it happened, I felt that you guys didn't get your due from the play to the movie.
05:33I know that's quite a broad statement to say, but you never got your flowers.
05:38And that's another thing I must say.
05:39We're giving your flowers while you're getting them.
05:41People can say whatever they want, but girl, take your stage while you have it.
05:46And I truly, truly appreciate it.
05:49But you know something, Jackie?
05:50You and I have been around long enough to realize that everything comes around the way it is supposed to come around.
05:58Yes, they ignored us when they made the movie.
06:02Whatever that choice was, it hurt my feelings because we literally created Dreamgirls.
06:10Nobody else created that.
06:12Tom Iron handpicked us, put us all together.
06:17We improvised and put those moments together that became that groundbreaking musical.
06:24And when they chose to go to Hollywood, make the movie, to act like we weren't a part,
06:30there were so many things they could have done that they could have added us.
06:34Tied it in.
06:34Exactly.
06:35But the choice was made not to.
06:38And God and goddess know why.
06:41I am, I'm just like, it's okay.
06:45That's right.
06:46Because we're moving forward.
06:48Who knows?
06:48Maybe somebody will leave us in their will and make it right.
06:51You just never know.
06:54You're in this business, in show business, you can't live in the past.
06:57You cannot live in the past.
06:58But don't get amnesia.
06:59That's what I say.
07:00That's right there.
07:00Make it be lipstick and lashes under the bridge, baby.
07:03Forever.
07:03So you were nominated for a Tony Award for Dreamgirls, which I, God, I loved it.
07:08I don't know how many times I've seen Dreamgirls.
07:10I know all of it.
07:12Because I just love the way it comes about.
07:14And you signed with a record label, which I did not know.
07:17Oh, my goodness.
07:17And released a solo album.
07:19I didn't know that.
07:20Really?
07:20No.
07:21You know, and it was so crazy.
07:22This man named Sid Bernstein, who brought the Beatles to America, came to see Dreamgirls
07:29and said, you need to do an album.
07:31And that's how that all came together.
07:33Trevor Lawrence was the producer.
07:35He was a great drummer.
07:37There's another Trevor Lawrence now, who is his son.
07:39And anyway, every summer, the song In the Evening is a gay anthem, and you will hear
07:45it at prides all around the world.
07:49And I'm like, thank you.
07:50In the evening, the real me comes alive.
07:56I can feel it.
07:58You know, real dance, disco music, all of that.
08:00Well, that must have been a great experience for you.
08:03Oh, it was.
08:03But it must have been frightening.
08:04Must have been frightening to do a whole album.
08:06You know, you do an album.
08:09Believe it or not, I was sitting in somebody's bay window because when they put the microphone
08:13there, the sound was great.
08:15And that's where we recorded it, in a window looking out on Hollywood Boulevard.
08:19So you never know.
08:21You have got to tell me the story about 227 and you and me.
08:28Well, it was, oh God, it's such a long story.
08:32But I thought when they flew me out from New York City to L.A., I thought it was like 50
08:38women.
08:39I got on the plane and I saw a couple of people.
08:40I said, oh, I'm going to get this.
08:42And we flew out.
08:43There were over 300 women when I got there.
08:46But you were already in L.A.
08:49You had a contract.
08:50Remember?
08:51See, I remember Foxfire.
08:52See, I remember you were already positioned.
08:55But I don't want to go negative because it doesn't work.
08:58But I was not slated to do that part.
09:02Marla Gives wanted the people from the original play to do those parts.
09:05I didn't know it was an original play.
09:07Me either.
09:08But Brandon Tartikoff, the late, great Brandon Tartikoff, he asked me.
09:11Oh my God, I love Brandon Tartikoff.
09:12Wasn't it?
09:13He was there, remember.
09:14But what happened was we got in there and it was a room, but you were already the queen.
09:19And a lot of people didn't know.
09:20But I saw Foxfire.
09:21I remember.
09:22It didn't last long.
09:23But you were making money already.
09:25And so you had the confidence of Hollywood, which, you know, I didn't care about at that
09:28time because I didn't know to have it.
09:30So, but coming out, you said you will get the next one.
09:35And I remember going, what's she mean I'm going to get the next one?
09:37I'm going to get this one.
09:38Now, that's really, I didn't say it to you, but my whole thing was like, troll.
09:43I went straight there, but that's New Yorkese.
09:46But you were already made.
09:48You were made later.
09:48Do you know, Jackie, I don't remember any of this.
09:50But I was in a, you know, underlay at that point, you know, but.
09:56I don't even remember auditioning.
09:58I don't even remember.
09:59You didn't.
10:00Oh, thank you.
10:00Okay, there you go.
10:02You were there too because Brandon and you were under contract.
10:05You don't remember.
10:06I got all the dirt.
10:07I got all the teeth that day.
10:09But we both played Popular Moms.
10:11After that, you had it and you went on to play with Brandy and Moesha, which I love.
10:16I love her.
10:17You know, that was a great time for me.
10:19I remember walking into the room and seeing this young 14-year-old black girl with her braids and just doing her thing.
10:30And her song sitting up in my room was very popular then.
10:34And I remember I was thinking all the way back when I was her age, you know, dreaming about coming into the industry and being a teenager and wearing my braids.
10:45And having producers say things like, it's a very unnatural hairstyle.
10:50Can't you just find something more natural?
10:54You know.
10:54How did that make you feel?
10:55Oh, my gosh.
10:56This made you feel.
10:57So tiny.
10:58And I remember having to ask him, natural for whom?
11:02You know, it's like, this is me.
11:05And for people to look at you.
11:07They call them slights.
11:08Yes.
11:09Or we would say those microaggressions.
11:12They call it benign racism.
11:13They just didn't know.
11:15Yes.
11:16You know.
11:16But what was so interesting also is that even later on when the pilot came up, I think it was Sanford Arms, the producer told me I just wasn't black enough.
11:27And I was like, wow.
11:30And what does that mean?
11:31Exactly.
11:32What does that?
11:33I wasn't black enough for you.
11:34I mean, you knew what he was trying to say.
11:36But you better tell me.
11:37Spell it out for me.
11:38Tell me.
11:38Because I've had parts, and I was telling somebody on the way here, I didn't know that you thought that way.
11:44How could I know?
11:45Right.
11:45Because I go in auditions with a different viewpoint than you do.
11:48That's right.
11:49Those years ago, 35 years ago, than you did.
11:52I was told I wasn't black enough in terms of my skin color.
11:55Wow.
11:56But I wasn't told that.
11:57But I know they wanted maybe, I always say, what they say, light skin, it ain't in this year.
12:03And then it comes in.
12:05But, you know, my family's all different shades and hues.
12:08Yes.
12:08And I don't think that way.
12:10But when they tell you, it makes you so angry, and then it makes you so sad.
12:14Exactly.
12:15At the same times.
12:16Years later, that producer, I saw him.
12:18He apologized.
12:20And he apologized.
12:22Good.
12:23He said, I am very sorry.
12:25And what did you say to him?
12:25I said, it's all right.
12:27You did?
12:28I did.
12:28You're better than me.
12:30I'd have been like, who is you?
12:32No, I knew exactly who it was.
12:33No, I know what you said.
12:34I let him apologize.
12:35And I was happy that he knew better now.
12:39He knew better.
12:40You got a lot of roles, because you were my baby and instant mom, Tia, right?
12:45And you've done a lot of work that people don't even recognize.
12:49So I know what your journey is now.
12:51I didn't.
12:52So you're going through this metamorphosis and evolution, and you're still working, and I see now what your trajectory is, because nobody thinks that way.
13:01You know, you always had your career planned out, didn't you?
13:05Yeah.
13:05I always knew that there would be younger people behind me, and I always knew in my mind that I would have children.
13:14And I wanted to have the kind of career that my children, my family, my community, the people that loved me could look at and say, that's our Cheryl Lee Ralph.
13:28That's Cheryl Lee Ralph.
13:30I wanted to be, for me, I embraced role model, because there were never enough for you and I.
13:36There were never enough on TV.
13:38You didn't have any role models?
13:40Yes, you did.
13:40Well, wait a minute.
13:41Judy Pace?
13:42Right.
13:42Oh, my God.
13:43There was Beverly Todd.
13:46Yes.
13:46There were, you know, they were there, but you wouldn't see them with the regularity of, say, a Donna Reed or any of those women.
13:56Lucy.
13:57They had every night after a while, you would see them, you know.
14:02But for me, it was like you could not tell me that Tinkerbell was not chocolate, because I knew in my mind I was going to be coming to this place to make money.
14:12And I was going to sprinkle on my bling, which is my favorite color.
14:16That's right.
14:17And that's, really?
14:18Yeah.
14:18Bling is your favorite color?
14:19Bling is my favorite color.
14:20You had that confidence instilled in you from an early age because of your mother, who my sister met in Kingston, Jamaica.
14:28I'll never forget.
14:28She had great taste.
14:29Your mother had great taste.
14:31And Elon, she was very elegant.
14:32She was.
14:33That's where you get your style from, I have to say.
14:35Yes.
14:35I saw you on your hit show, Abbott Elementary.
14:39I love Abbott Elementary.
14:42And I said, oh, my God.
14:44And I'll be honest with you.
14:45I went, oh, my God.
14:46She looks so old.
14:50Wait a minute.
14:51I didn't mean your looks.
14:52I meant your acting.
14:53Quinta said to me, Quinta absolutely said, I know you are a great actress, Miss Ralph, and I don't want to see Cheryl Lee Ralph.
15:07I want to see the woman that would be Barbara Howard.
15:13Wow.
15:14And she was very adamant about that, you know, to wear the wig that was, you know.
15:23I saw it, girl.
15:24Yeah.
15:25I saw the posture.
15:27Yes.
15:27I saw the way you deported yourself.
15:30You know, I saw it all.
15:31I went, oh, my God.
15:33Yeah.
15:33I was like, I don't know, Cheryl, you're a better woman than me.
15:35But that's the first 10 minutes.
15:38And I saw the pilot, you know, and you look radically different.
15:41People may not notice it, but I noticed it right away.
15:44Buttoned up tight.
15:45It's fabulous.
15:47Thank you very much.
15:48You know, but now what do you like about that character?
15:52She's a little tense.
15:54She got a little stick way up there.
15:55I love the fact that Barbara Howard is completely dedicated to the children that she teaches.
16:03That school, with all of its challenges, means something to her.
16:08I always say somebody on social media connected my first movie role, Barbara Hanley, in a piece of the action to Barbara Howard.
16:17I went up for that role, too, by the way.
16:19That's another story.
16:20But I'll tell you what Sidney said to me.
16:22I got that far with Sidney.
16:23Well, there you go.
16:25So Barbara Howard, I think that Barbara Howard is a great teacher because she remembers what it was like when she was Barbara Hanley, when she didn't have a teacher that believed in her.
16:37Somebody that was going to plant that seed of curiosity, of knowledge to help her read and become, you know, all that she becomes being Barbara Howard.
16:47You influence the other teachers on that show as well because Tylan's another one of my babies.
16:51I work with him when everybody hates Chris.
16:54And Tylan, his brother.
16:55I don't know Janelle.
16:56I hope to meet her someday.
16:57Brand new, wonderful comedian.
16:59What's her name?
16:59The other Walters.
17:00I don't know her first name.
17:01Lisa Ann Walter.
17:01Oh, she's fat.
17:02Chris Fafetti.
17:03Yes.
17:04And I've never met Quintus, so, you know, I can't keep saying how wonderful it is.
17:09But I saw her.
17:09I was like, she's playing a character.
17:11I was like, well, girl, go ahead.
17:13Because my ego, which is another thing in this business, you have to constantly fight with.
17:18Yes.
17:18You know.
17:19Absolutely.
17:20Constantly.
17:20And people don't know what that means.
17:21And tamp down the ego.
17:23Oh, God, as much as you can.
17:24But sometimes it creeps up on you.
17:26Yes.
17:26And you don't mean to be nasty to people or anything.
17:29Like somebody brought me the wrong food.
17:31Sometimes it's a fear.
17:31Right?
17:32And you go, I don't want this.
17:34And before you know it, you're being rude.
17:36So I have to tamper it.
17:38But sometimes that ego is necessary.
17:40Yeah, I had a great role model in Virginia Capers.
17:45And on Virginia Capers, stuck with me from the time I was 18 years old when we first met.
17:51She was doing Raisin on Broadway.
17:54On Broadway, the original Raisin on Broadway.
17:56And she won the Tony.
17:58And she really spent a great amount of time with me.
18:02And she said, be as kind as you can for as long as you can to as many people as you can.
18:10Because the same ass, and she said it, you kick today, you may have to kiss tomorrow.
18:19And that has just been so good for me.
18:22Because how many times has the young person that has brought me coffee turns out to be the producer in the next five to ten years?
18:31Oh, I've seen that Mara Brock O'Keele bought coffee to me at Moesha.
18:37I'm so happy I was nice to her because she's a big-time producer now.
18:41Does what she wants to do.
18:42So many of them.
18:44But you're right.
18:44You've got to tamp that ego down and really have somebody good to talk you off the cliff.
18:50Well, I wasn't talking off the cliff.
18:52You know who used to bring me my scripts for 227 to my door and delivery room?
18:56Who?
18:56Kenya Barris.
18:57Are you kidding me?
18:58I wasn't nice to him.
19:00See, look at me now.
19:02My God, Jackie.
19:04I ain't lying.
19:06And he reminded me of it.
19:07He said, do you remember?
19:09And wait, ego, I don't remember.
19:12See, that's what you call.
19:13But I was the 80s.
19:14It was the 80s, baby.
19:16Wow.
19:16When they called your name for your Emmy and I went, wow, this is bigger than I thought because I wasn't thinking of age.
19:24See, you're thinking now because we are in the space now.
19:28But I never even thought of it because back then, that was 35 years ago.
19:31But I wasn't socially conscious about it, to be honest with you.
19:35I just won an award.
19:36I didn't really know that it meant that much to me.
19:40You know, because I was, like you're a working actress.
19:42I just want to do my great work and keep on going and do better and better and better.
19:47But I knew it was important.
19:48Don't get me wrong.
19:49But I didn't take it because I didn't get what you got.
19:52And that's my only thing is everybody wasn't happy for me.
19:57And that's my next question to you, the next elephant.
19:59Everybody's not going to be happy for you.
20:01You do know that, right?
20:01I have.
20:02With great, what is it?
20:03To whom much is given, much is expected.
20:06And much is required.
20:08We'll see.
20:09Yeah.
20:10See, I know you know that meaning.
20:12They expect you to do these wonderful things and you have to.
20:14And the challenge is great, is it not?
20:17You know something?
20:18Honestly, Jackie, I have always felt that I had the mic, that I was up to the challenge.
20:25Oh, right now.
20:25I was going to speak truth to power.
20:29What has changed for me now is they unmuted the mic.
20:35It's like.
20:36They released the Kraken, huh?
20:37They released it.
20:39It's like, oh, wait, you hear me now.
20:42You hear me.
20:43And it is amazing.
20:46You know, there are always going to be doubters and there are always going to be haters.
20:51But you have to you have to receive them just as you receive the good and know that, of course, they're there.
20:59But that's for them.
21:01And they're not going away.
21:02I'm not going away.
21:03But that's for them.
21:04That's in their insecurity.
21:07That's their way of approaching things.
21:09That's not mine.
21:12And it's a fear to all of that.
21:15But it's not mine.
21:17So all I can do is hold on to my joy, which at this point in my life, it's been it's a learned place.
21:24I live in that place.
21:26I live in happiness.
21:29I wake up every morning.
21:30I open my eyes and I take a breath.
21:32I'm like, whoa, I am here again.
21:35OK, God has been good to me.
21:37And I've got another day.
21:40And I'm happy with the new day.
21:44Well, I'm happy.
21:45And it's not I don't take it for granted.
21:47I do not take it for granted.
21:49Oh, some days is hard, though.
21:50But but and but as you celebrate and as you equivocate and as you expound upon your your goals, you know, I used to be a teacher.
21:58It's another thing.
21:59I used to be a teacher.
22:00Just so people don't know.
22:01I'm not just mouthing off here.
22:03You know, I was a substitute teacher for one day.
22:07But one much is day much is required.
22:09So we're required to teach.
22:12That's right.
22:12So that'll never stop.
22:14Never.
22:15That will never stop.
22:16But I would say a great lesson is find your joy and hold on to it.
22:20Don't let anybody take it away.
22:22I think Billy Porter said it on some interview.
22:23He said joy can't be given and it can't be taken away once you have it.
22:27Once you have it.
22:28So you got it.
22:29Go ahead, girl.
22:30Don't talk crying on me.
22:30I don't feel like crying.
22:31My makeup took too long.
22:35So speaking of to whom much is given, much is required.
22:41How is it working with a strong black woman on a show where she's in charge like Quinta Brunson?
22:47I mean, how is that?
22:48I've never had that.
22:49Let me tell you.
22:50I've never had producers, but not a writer.
22:51A writer.
22:52She wrote that part for you.
22:53She most certainly did.
22:56That is my work child.
22:58That is my boss.
23:00And she is a good one.
23:03She's at the top.
23:04She starts with kindness.
23:07She knows her show.
23:08She can tell you about these characters.
23:11Ten years in, everything she's getting now, these are just building blocks.
23:16She does not, she's not out there saying, okay, I'm going to get this award, this award, that award.
23:21No, she's thinking about the kind of work that she is going to be able to create for the culture.
23:28She's got hundreds of stories in her, and she is so talented.
23:34And I love working with her.
23:37And we have a great working relationship.
23:40And she's so funny.
23:41She says, now, Cheryl, she used to call me Miss Ralph.
23:44She calls me, Cheryl.
23:46She says, Cheryl, the algorithm.
23:49The algorithm is skewed.
23:53Not towards joy, but towards sadness.
23:57And you can't fight that algorithm.
23:59And I'm like, what the hell is she talking about?
24:02But she's teaching me all about it because she knows.
24:04Yes.
24:05Yes.
24:05She started out at BuzzFeed.
24:07She knows.
24:08Yeah, and she had another thing Dr. Maya Angelou taught me.
24:12She said, it takes courage to be successful.
24:16And that's what I'm saying.
24:17You're not going to get all your flowers.
24:19So that's why I'm here to give them to you.
24:21Because it takes courage to tell somebody that they're great and keep doing the work that you're doing.
24:27Everybody won't do that for you.
24:28Sounds very simple, doesn't it?
24:30It does.
24:31Very simple.
24:31But it's complicated.
24:33It is.
24:34Because there are so many few roles for women.
24:39Ageism, racism.
24:41It's just a hard-fought battle.
24:43And I'm going to tell you, I've never thought about that.
24:45Who are some of the women that have helped you on your way?
24:48Now, you mentioned your teachers, of course.
24:50But in the business, they've mostly not maybe been African-American, or have they?
24:55Oh, it's been an amazing mixture.
24:58Like I said, Virginia Capers was with me from the time I was 18 years old.
25:05I met her when I was one of the top 10 college women in America by Glamour magazine.
25:10And I asked to meet her because she was at the top of her game, an amazing woman.
25:15Like there is an amazing woman in Jamaica named Beverly Manley, who married the past prime minister, Michael Manley.
25:25And she was always a big girl to me.
25:28And, you know, she took me by the hand and would take me with her shopping and to the museum.
25:36To all of those things, museums as they were, you know, in Jamaica and spending Saturdays with her.
25:42What about actors, though?
25:43Anybody in particular, can you remember?
25:45Because mine was, believe it or not, Diana Sands was my role model.
25:50That's who I wanted to be like.
25:52I wanted to win an Oscar and be like her.
25:54A lot of people don't know that name now.
25:55She died so early at 33.
25:57That's right.
25:57So that's what Nancy Wilson.
25:59Nancy Wilson was amazing to me.
26:01Diane Carroll and I were like this.
26:03Really?
26:03Diane Carroll taught me a lot.
26:04She taught me about pearls and diamonds.
26:07She sat me down in her bedroom and said, this is what it looks like, darling.
26:10She said, because my then husband had bought me some pearls.
26:13I went, there's something wrong with these pearls.
26:15She said, come in my room.
26:16I'll teach you about pearls.
26:18Did she tell you about putting them on your teeth?
26:20Oh.
26:21So you always know.
26:22And black pearls specifically.
26:23Oh, love those.
26:25She had all.
26:25Love those.
26:26Those black Baroque pearls.
26:28I just love them so much.
26:30Does that make her shallow?
26:31No.
26:33There's nothing wrong with knowing quality and understanding what the best looks like.
26:37Nancy Wilson was amazing to me.
26:40She was there at my wedding.
26:43She would just call me sometimes out of the blue.
26:46Amazing.
26:46Maya Angelou was wonderful to me.
26:49I remember before she got married.
26:51She scared the hell out of me, though.
26:53Really?
26:53Oh, yeah.
26:53She said, Jackie, it takes courage to be successful.
26:58Jackie, always keep that ego in check.
27:03Jackie.
27:03She speaks from experience, though.
27:05She speaks from wisdom.
27:05But everything she was saying, I didn't get it.
27:07I got it years later.
27:08That's what I'm saying.
27:09Wow.
27:09That's why you're ever now, and we're the same generation, but I didn't receive it then.
27:15Gotcha.
27:15I can receive it now.
27:16That's why you're on your journey.
27:18And why we can't stop teaching.
27:20I was just with Robin Thade, who I love.
27:23Love her.
27:23So we're teachers now.
27:24Black Women Sketch Show.
27:25So they're emulating us now, and I didn't like it at first.
27:29I didn't like people copying my stuff.
27:30I was like, oh, please, get your own.
27:32But if that's all you have, then take it, but then make it yours, is what I say.
27:35And it's such good stuff that you gave.
27:37Come on.
27:38I know, but I'm over there.
27:40You take it.
27:40Whatever.
27:41Go do whatever you want.
27:42I'm over that.
27:43You've evolved.
27:44We've evolved.
27:45We can't do.
27:46In a way, somebody's going to get you to come in a room now and go, so what you mean,
27:49you ain't doing that kind of acting.
27:50No, no.
27:51Never.
27:52Like, do you look at your old stuff like piece of the action?
27:55You were fabulous, but you would never attack that part that way.
27:58You know, I'm not sure, because Barbara Hanley, that was a raw, rough little girl.
28:05And when I took on that role, my father looked at me and he said, I know you're an actress,
28:11because I don't know who that child is.
28:13That's what I'm saying.
28:13I don't know who that is, you know?
28:15You know, Dreamgirls, when I, you know, the ethereal, the cheerleader with the velvet
28:21hammer, and, you know, she's just going to be there and all of that.
28:25That was, you know, the voice, creating the voice to fit the character.
28:29Going back to what you said about me playing Barbara Howard, you know, creating that older
28:34persona, that older woman.
28:37And, you know, the way, like you said, the way she holds herself, she's, people look
28:43at Barbara Howard and look at me and they're like, whoa, you know.
28:48Oh, no, I said, oh, she looks so old.
28:50Oh, I said that already.
28:53But, you know, it's like you, you've got to, you've got to embrace it.
28:57At least for me, it's been a gift because it's been this character that gave me that Emmy
29:02and doing the acting to bring her alive.
29:06And I've been given the gift of being able to act because most of us don't get that gift.
29:11We, you know, Betty Davis was given the gift to act.
29:16Meryl Streep was given the gift to act, to create characters, to bring them to life.
29:21And I'm so happy that I've been able to, you know, embrace that.
29:28Yes, yes.
29:29Because, what did she say?
29:30It takes courage to be successful.
29:32There you go.
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