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00:00Jimmy Butler's ACL is torn. What does it mean for the Warriors? What do you do from here?
00:04I think there's a lot of different sort of opinions that can make sense.
00:10What we don't know behind the scenes is what's the Warrior philosophy,
00:14and I think really the linchpin of the whole thing is we don't know what's available right now.
00:18Like, we can scream at clouds all, you got to trade Kaminga.
00:21Well, what if nothing good is available?
00:24You know, the DeRozan thing, I don't hate it.
00:27I did. I don't anymore.
00:30So maybe that is a thing.
00:33And that's, of what we know, that is among the things that would make me go,
00:38okay, I could wrap my head around that.
00:40But if there's nothing along those lines, I got no problem.
00:45Just keeping Jonathan Kaminga, letting him play 30-some-odd games,
00:50see if that can rehab the image and the value a little bit
00:54and allow all of these Warrior contracts to become expiring deals this offseason
00:59and then see what you can do.
01:01And what is it that you could do? I have no idea.
01:04But I do know this.
01:05If the answer right now is nothing good,
01:07then the worst thing that could happen was this summer the answer will be the same.
01:12So that's what we're all looking for.
01:15And the next 16 days we'll provide that answer.
01:18Nick Ferdell will join us in 25 minutes, and we'll talk that out a little bit more.
01:23888-957-9570 is the number.
01:26We're going to keep talking it out with you.
01:28But, yeah, it's real possible that Jonathan Kaminga gets into the game tonight.
01:36And, yes, through Slater and through other means,
01:39we know that Jonathan, if pointed to, will go in.
01:44He's not going to sit out.
01:46He's not going to make up an injury.
01:47I mean, I don't know if he did before.
01:49No one's told us that he made up an injury before.
01:53A report in The Athletic, at minimum, harshly insinuated it.
01:57Right.
01:57And you know what that is, right?
01:59Well, I do.
02:00I do.
02:01Yeah.
02:01Fact.
02:02It's an insinuation sensation is what it is.
02:04I got you.
02:05Right.
02:05And so, I mean, he could be, like, all gung-ho to play.
02:09And, ooh, that back.
02:09I mean, backs are tricky.
02:11The back could flare up.
02:12And, you know, for Kaminga,
02:14a guy who hasn't played at all in five weeks
02:17and he hasn't played meaningful minutes in almost two months.
02:20And now, oh, now you're going to, like, tab me.
02:23Now you want me to play?
02:25I don't know.
02:25If I'm him.
02:26Yeah.
02:26I mean, on the surface, like, in the moment, it's like,
02:29oh, now you want me to play?
02:30I get it.
02:31I'm a little bit ticked off.
02:33But at the same time, maybe you step back
02:35and you realize that, you know,
02:36all you really want to do is play basketball.
02:39Right.
02:39And now you get a chance to actually play basketball.
02:41I can't tell you that he doesn't feel that way a little bit.
02:43He probably does.
02:45But then again, you also have a bigger picture to look at.
02:48And, boy, like, if it does,
02:51I do think that furthers the story in not the greatest way for Jonathan
02:56if it were to get to a point like this and the Warriors are like,
03:00yeah, we want to go to him.
03:02Let's do it.
03:03And Jonathan's like, no.
03:04Well, it's a little bit like Brandon Ayuk,
03:06where, you know, they wanted him to rehab
03:08and they wanted him to come back and play.
03:10And then, you know, it furthered the story to the point
03:12where Ayuk never played.
03:14And now he's in a spot where he's probably going to be a free agent
03:17come March.
03:18And has tremendously lowered his value.
03:21And we'll see.
03:21Probably.
03:22The value's probably gone down.
03:23But he will get what he wants,
03:25which is to go play somewhere else.
03:26And he'll make less money.
03:28And he'll be able to do so.
03:29And for Kaminga, he doesn't have the same ability
03:32because the Warriors could say, hey, we want you to play tonight.
03:36He could say, oh, man, my back, you know, backs are tricky.
03:39And so I'm not ready to go.
03:41And then you get to the offseason and they could, like, pick up his option.
03:44And we could do the whole dance for another year.
03:46I mean, nobody wants that.
03:47I don't know Joe Laker personally.
03:50But I don't want to get into a power struggle with him.
03:54I'm out on that.
03:54No, he doesn't like losing.
03:56Right.
03:56So if I'm Jonathan Kaminga, I'll pass.
04:00I'll pass on a power struggle with Joe Laker.
04:02I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose that.
04:04Right.
04:05But you come back and you play and maybe you have something happen like it
04:09happened to Jimmy Bumper.
04:09There's no question.
04:10Right.
04:11But I also don't want to get into a power struggle.
04:12Like, you could argue he got into a power struggle with Joe Laker already once.
04:16And it was very clearly reported just last week that Jonathan was not thrilled with the contract
04:23that he ended up signing.
04:24But he did.
04:24Yep.
04:25Because.
04:25It's better than playing a qualifying offer.
04:28Exactly.
04:29There's millions and millions and millions of dollars at stake.
04:31And that's very true for this situation as well.
04:34And what you do with every situation changes.
04:38It changes the way people look at you and what your opportunities are and all of that.
04:42So, anyway, let's keep going.
04:44How about Jimbo in Milwaukee?
04:47Jimbo, thanks for the call.
04:48What's up?
04:49You're on with Willard and Dibs.
04:49Hey, guys.
04:52Love the show.
04:53First time caller because I always just listen to it.
04:56I think the situation that we're in after just listening to the previous segments where
05:01they said that Minga, they're trying to do a part two.
05:05I blame Steve Kerr and I forgot our GM's name.
05:11All of my stuff.
05:12Mike Dunlady.
05:12That's okay.
05:13Mike Dunlady.
05:14Mike Dunlady.
05:15Yeah.
05:15Dunlady.
05:15Yeah.
05:16Sorry.
05:16Um, because they, the way they constructed the roster, um, and they're still trying to
05:23run their offense and they don't have the right players.
05:27We're too small.
05:28We don't have any three and D players and, and, and just even not trying to trade Minga
05:36the previous seasons, knowing if this is not your player, why are you still trying to mold
05:41them?
05:41Um, and then you guys talked about as well as that Kerr doesn't like developing players,
05:47young players.
05:48He reminds me of Phil Jackson.
05:50He always wants a veteran team.
05:51Yep.
05:52Every, every, well, that he has post is all veterans.
05:56Jimbo, can I, can I Jimbo, Jimbo, Jimbo, real quick before you keep going, can I mention
06:00something?
06:01I don't think that those guys by definition always want veterans.
06:05I think that they want people who are ready to win when they have a Kobe Bryant or a Shaq
06:11or a Steph Curry on their team.
06:13I think that's what they think is the way to move forward.
06:17Can we, can we agree on that?
06:19Yes.
06:20Okay.
06:21All right.
06:21All right.
06:22All right.
06:22But then when, when, when you have that superstar and you're not willing to get the players
06:29that have the IQ or, or the basketball skills to run your offense, I blame her for not adjusting,
06:37but I understand you have to run your offense because you have Curry, right?
06:42I get that.
06:43So then why, because the previous guy said, let's trade Curry and, you know, of course he's
06:47worth a billion dollars.
06:48So then we already know what we need to do as a team.
06:52You need to trade the future.
06:54You need to get rid of these young guys that don't work well in her system and work well
06:59with Curry.
07:00It's already been said, which you guys talked about it, which I love for the past half hour.
07:06You guys said, he's our guy.
07:08They're not going to trade him.
07:09He's worth a hundred billion dollars or a billion dollars.
07:12Like, okay.
07:12With all that is said and even saying like, why would you even do a part three, part four
07:17with Kaminga and then you have these young guys.
07:21Why, why not just play Melton, GP two, heel, just get a stretch four, stretch five, get
07:28more older guys like a, like a Portis from Milwaukee.
07:31He's hardly playing.
07:32How are you getting them?
07:33Like that.
07:34I'm just saying.
07:34How are you getting them?
07:35I understand.
07:37Give up, give up what you need to give up, man.
07:40Like you said, you know, let's get a veteran team so you don't have to coach up these young
07:47guys and wait for them to develop.
07:49I know they're trying to do now and the future.
07:52And you guys talked about it.
07:54Like the previous caller said, let's trade Curry.
07:56Heck no, no, we're not going to do that.
07:59They're not going to do that.
08:01You guys know that don't make no sense.
08:03You can tell me to make it sense like you guys talked about, but it's not happening.
08:06So we already know what we need to do as the Warriors franchise, right?
08:11Get rid of the young talent, get rid of the future draft picks, right?
08:15Jimbo, we're going to, we're going to let some other people get in here.
08:18We got it.
08:18So like, here's what I would say to you though.
08:21My answer to you, as it kind of has been all day long, when you say, well, get rid of
08:28these players that we don't want you, you need someone to want them.
08:33You have to have an offer that you like.
08:36This is what Joe Lacob has said publicly, and it's been reported behind the scenes consistently.
08:43He's not giving Jonathan away for nothing.
08:47He won't do it.
08:49So when we say, oh, you don't like the guy, get rid of him.
08:52Can you?
08:53Has there ever been a deal that made sense for the Warriors?
08:57This is not about X's and O's and Jonathan Kaminga or anyone else playing basketball.
09:04It's about asset management.
09:06And the Warriors have done a very poor job of managing this particular asset.
09:10But in any given moment, you're in that moment.
09:13And I think the Warriors still believe to this day that there might be a better time.
09:20And this is basically because of the Butler injury, too.
09:23But there might end up being a better time down the road to trade Jonathan.
09:27I don't know that.
09:28I know that they didn't get rid of him at his height.
09:31But that's in the past.
09:33So you could have got rid of him.
09:35They didn't.
09:37Here we are.
09:38And the same thing is true.
09:39You have to try to maximize your asset.
09:42Right.
09:42And the asset is going to get better, I guess, somehow by you playing him now after not playing
09:47him for seven weeks.
09:48Possible.
09:48Yeah, it's also possible that he gets hurt and then the asset plummets.
09:52So the asset is the fact that Jonathan Kaminga is this guy with great athleticism and great
09:58upside.
09:59And yet you, as an organization, have chosen to not play him for the better part of two
10:03months because you didn't think that he could help you win.
10:06And now Jimmy Butler gets hurt and now you're kind of desperate.
10:09So now you're going to play Jonathan Kaminga for 16 days and hope to maybe trade him at
10:14the deadline or you're going to play him for three months and hope that the asset gets back
10:18to where other teams are going to actually want him.
10:21The whole thing has been completely butchered from start to finish.
10:24And now here you are desperate because you don't have Jimmy Butler.
10:28And now you're going to try to throw him out there.
10:29And now you're going to try to see if you can revive his value playing for a team that
10:34doesn't have Jimmy Butler and probably isn't going to be that good anyway.
10:38See, I don't see it as desperate at all.
10:40No, it's totally desperate.
10:41I don't because why are you playing him?
10:43Why would you play him tonight?
10:44I've set up like why would the Warriors play him tonight?
10:48Because, you know, it's time to play Kaminga.
10:51No, it's because you lost Jimmy Butler.
10:52You're desperate.
10:54No, you're desperate for a player.
10:55No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's because Jimmy Butler,
10:58but not because you're desperate.
11:00It's because Jimmy Butler.
11:01And that now means that the championship dreams of this year are over.
11:05So now we have a whole new reality.
11:07And in that reality, I think it makes sense to, again, if no good deal is on the table
11:15right now, play Jonathan, see if he can do what so many believe he can and has in the
11:22past, average 20 a night, and then, or even if it's 16 a night, and do that for a few
11:29months, and then in the offseason, he is both expiring and potentially has revitalized
11:35interest.
11:36It's actually the opposite of being desperate.
11:38I disagree.
11:39I know you do.
11:40I disagree.
11:41But I don't like, it's funny that you disagree.
11:43Like, why wouldn't you have played him a week ago?
11:45Like, to build up his value then?
11:47Because that was not your goal.
11:48Your goal at that time was to use Jimmy Butler to win basketball games.
11:51Right, your goal is still to win basketball games.
11:53Not desperately.
11:54Yes, desperately.
11:55You literally walked in here and said it's over.
11:57It's over.
11:58Okay, so there's no desperation then?
12:00Well, the desperation lies in the fact that now you're going to play Kaminga.
12:03That's not desperate.
12:04That is desperate.
12:05Why?
12:05And if you really looked at it like, you know, in reality, if the reality you thought as
12:10an organization was, you know what, it's over, then you bubble wrap Steph, and you bubble
12:15wrap Draymond, and we'll see you next year, and you can go ahead and get a lottery.
12:18That's what I'm saying.
12:19If they thought the way that I thought, then they would go that way.
12:23But instead, they're desperate to try to see if they can salvage this, so they're going
12:27to throw Kaminga back in there.
12:28I don't agree with that at all.
12:29They're going to play Jonathan Kaminga.
12:30All of a sudden, now J.K. is an asset because Jimmy Butler's out, so now we're going to go
12:34ahead and play Kaminga?
12:35Where do you get the sense of desperation?
12:38I get the sense of desperation where you have a player who was a lottery pick who you used
12:43at the start of the year, and you played him, and now you didn't play him for two months,
12:46but now you lose a player.
12:48No, no, just right now.
12:49I'm trying to explain it if you let me finish.
12:51No, no, right now.
12:51If you let me finish.
12:52No, but you're talking about the boss.
12:53No, I'm trying to explain it to you.
12:55The desperation comes from a guy you didn't think was playable yesterday, now you have
13:00a guy who's injured, and so now all of a sudden he's playable.
13:03That's desperation.
13:04It's not desperate.
13:04It's a new reality.
13:06Yesterday, Jimmy Butler.
13:07The reality is desperation.
13:09It's not.
13:10It's my opinion, yeah.
13:11It's asset management, and you do it every day, and sometimes you wake up to a new world.
13:18The Warriors have woken up to a new world, and all of us are sitting here thinking about,
13:23okay, now what do you do?
13:26And I have to think that new people coming into the game, a new goal for the year, a new
13:32outlook like the Warriors, according to reports, they're sitting in meetings all morning because
13:37they're rebooting their entire system and outlook because one of their top investments
13:44is no longer available, so a whole new world, and in a whole new world, you might do things
13:50completely differently.
13:51I don't see it as desperation at all.
13:54I see it simply as this actually might now make sense when it didn't yesterday.
14:00No desperation.
14:01The opposite of desperation.
14:03Like, they have to be real with themselves.
14:04You're not winning the title this year.
14:07You're wrong.
14:07Well, they weren't anyway, so.
14:09I said that earlier, and you crapped on me.
14:11No, I told you that it was over.
14:13Like, I mean, they weren't anyway.
14:14Nobody thought that they were anyway, but now you get into a situation.
14:18So, Kaminga demands to be traded, and so we don't play him because we want to preserve
14:23the asset.
14:24Which is irrelevant.
14:25His demand was irrelevant.
14:26You and I both laughed at it.
14:27Okay, yes.
14:28We laughed at it, but they didn't play him because they wanted to preserve the asset,
14:32and now, all of a sudden, you need Jimmy Butler.
14:34Jimmy Butler's out, so now you're going to play him?
14:36Isn't that, like, risking the asset?
14:38No.
14:39Absolutely, it's risking the asset.
14:41What are you risking?
14:42You're risking him tearing up his knee.
14:43Sure.
14:44And then what?
14:45And that's a small risk based on you're not risking anything because there's no good
14:49deal on the table.
14:50Like, here's the quickest way I can say it.
14:53It's not desperation.
14:54Yesterday, you were trying to win.
14:57Today, you might not be.
14:59So, that's why.
14:59You better be trying to win.
15:00Why?
15:01Because that's what you do.
15:03Like, if you're not trying to win, then sit Steph, sit Draymond, play Pat, play Guy,
15:09play LJ Cryer.
15:11If you're not trying to win, then go ahead and wave the white flag.
15:14You're trying to win.
15:15The guy who says it's over also says they have to try to win.
15:19I say it's over, but it's not me.
15:21I'm not the one running the team.
15:23Do you think that they think it's over?
15:25Yeah, I do.
15:26I do.
15:26I think their championship dreams are completely over.
15:28I can tell you, if they thought it was really over, then they would sit Steph, they would
15:33sit Draymond, they would sit everyone.
15:35No, that's up to them.
15:37That's up to Steph.
15:38Well, they don't think it's over.
15:39Well, you don't have that.
15:40We have zero evidence of what they think.
15:42We haven't seen them since this happened.
15:44Right.
15:44So, like, no, I'm not suggesting you tank, but, like, to think that today they're in
15:50position to win a title is ludicrous.
15:52Well, they weren't in position yesterday to win a title.
15:53Which is what I said earlier, and you said that was nuts.
15:55It's what I've said the whole time.
15:57Vince in the city.
15:59Hi, Vince.
15:59Thanks for calling.
16:01Hey, what's up, guys?
16:03You know, I think with this injury, there's only two real decisions that need to be made,
16:10and one is going to be, do you keep doing what you've been doing with this roster as
16:15constructed, or if the goal is really about getting Steph another ring, you blow it all
16:21up?
16:22Because I look at the roster, and I don't see anybody taking over the mantle for Steph when
16:26he retires, when he decides to retire.
16:29There's no marquee player.
16:30You don't have championship talent on the roster, so what are you doing?
16:35You're either playing to be an A seed and then a middle draft pick, or you've got to
16:41do what you've got to do.
16:42It's going to suck.
16:43You're going to give up good pieces, young pieces, to try to put a roster together that's
16:47going to win now.
16:49But then, I just thought about this while I was listening.
16:52Jimmy Butler's salary is so high, and he's on the bench because he's injured, so what
16:57does that do for cap space as well?
16:58That makes making deals even harder.
17:01So I don't know what there is to do.
17:03You've kind of got to just tank and just eat it.
17:05You've got to take the L on this one and just write it out and see what happens.
17:10Or, like I said, figure out some magical, mathematical way to make the numbers work and
17:15trade whoever you've got to trade away to get talent that could possibly win this year,
17:20which I don't think is there.
17:21I completely agree with you, Vince, except for the one idea of everyone's expendable,
17:28except for the one person we know who is not expendable.
17:32Listen, I don't have a firm pull-out-of-Sharpie answer.
17:37I don't think there is a great answer, which I think was kind of your point.
17:40The one thing I'll put in Sharpie is stop bringing up Steph.
17:43That's my Sharpie.
17:45Stop talking about Steph Curry and maneuvering him and moving him and this, that, and the
17:51other.
17:52That's my only Sharpie.
17:54They may still trade Jonathan.
17:56I just believe that today you wake up in a whole new world.
18:01So you have to look at this through a completely new lens.
18:05And as Vince says, kind of might need to just take the L. And if that means riding it out
18:10and playing who you have and seeing if that you can then manage the assets to a different
18:17reality in the summer, that may be the best option.
18:21I don't think that that's out of the realm of possibility.
18:25It might even be the probability.
18:27Again, if you believe what we're being told, the whole world's telling everybody that nobody
18:32wants him.
18:33Nobody's willing, even O.
18:35We'll see.
18:36I mean, you have two more weeks.
18:37The Kings want him.
18:38Really?
18:38Then stop asking the Warriors to attach a pick.
18:42How bad do you want him?
18:43We'll see.
18:43Okay, we'll see.
18:44You got two more weeks to go until the deadline.
18:46And if there's a great deal, then wonderful.
18:48Do it.
18:49And if there's an okay deal, then go ahead and do it.
18:51If there's a mediocre deal, go ahead and do it.
18:53Because the asset, I don't think necessarily is going to get a lot better.
18:57I don't think the Kaminga between now and the end of the year plays so well that all
19:01of a sudden now, some team out there is like, whoa, I didn't see that coming.
19:05You might be right, but you also might be wrong.
19:07Like, let me throw a scenario at you, okay?
19:10The last time we saw Jonathan play really, really, really consistent minutes was in the
19:15Minnesota series.
19:17And Steph Curry was out.
19:18Now, the Warriors did not win any of the basketball games, but you know darn well how many fans
19:23in this city have pointed to those four games and gone, see, 24.3 points per game.
19:30Now, whether they won or not, whether the analytics were great, put that aside.
19:35What if he came in and did that again?
19:39Again, not right away.
19:40Does there need to be a ramp up?
19:41But what if in the month of March, Jonathan averaged 19.9 points per game?
19:48Warriors aren't a great team, but you don't think that that would stoke some interest in
19:53the offseason if he put that on film?
19:57I think the interest is already there.
19:59The interest is wherever it would be.
20:01And if you look at the first 12 games of this year, he averaged 15 a game, and he started
20:05all 12 of those games.
20:07And you always want to say five games.
20:09It was more than that, and the last three or four of those, he actually struggled shooting
20:12it from three, but he still averaged 15 a night, and he played a lot, and he played
20:17as well as he has all year.
20:19So it's more than just four games against Minnesota.
20:21And if you're out there watching Kaminga, you've seen four years of what he can be.
20:25I don't think that his value, even if he has a great March, I don't think that the value
20:29goes from where it is now to all of a sudden now, oh God, we got to have him.
20:34Teams either like him or they don't like him.
20:36Then you don't believe all the source reporting that's out there right now.
20:40I do believe it to the extent that I don't believe anything right now.
20:44And that's fine.
20:45You don't have to believe it.
20:46It's trade season.
20:46So yes, I do believe that there's not been an offer that they've received that they like
20:51enough that they've taken it.
20:52That I believe.
20:53And that's been true for like two and a half years.
20:56Right.
20:57And who's that on?
20:59It's on Kaminga, and it's on the organization.
21:01That's fine.
21:01For mismanagement.
21:02I'm not, yeah, that is.
21:03So does he play one more month and then all of a sudden, wow, oh my God, now the offers
21:08come pouring in?
21:09I don't believe it.
21:10Didn't say that.
21:10I believe that.
21:11I'm just telling you what I think.
21:12Yeah.
21:13I'm not saying anything about your point.
21:14I'm telling you what I think.
21:15We're having a discussion here.
21:16Right.
21:16And what I think is that his value is his value.
21:19And if you play him for three more months, his value is not going to go higher.
21:23It's not going to go lower unless he gets hurt.
21:25I think there's always possibilities for change.
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