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00:00By 1983, British police were recording interviews with Spex
00:29in custody. One tape of Ciaran Kelly's final police interview has survived. It's the
00:38story of an Irish serial killer in his own words.
00:43You broke Kinekeater. Son. Son. It's clean on your mind at times.
00:49Can I have a load please? How are you Kelly? Do you want a cup of tea?
01:04Cup of tea, cup of coffee.
01:06Cup of tea please.
01:09All right Kelly. What do you think you've killed all together?
01:23Did you know that Mickey Dunn was going to kill him then? Or did you hope it would? You hoped that it would.
01:29He talks about another one and another one and another one. This litany of confessions.
01:35And I'm pouring it in. Put that down then. What's that down now? That's 11 now.
01:43The cops thought that they may well be in the presence of Britain's most prolific se-
01:47It doesn't fit the profile of somebody who's homeless and alcoholic.
01:53All right Kelly. How many people do you think you've killed all together?
01:59I don't fucking know. He's in charge here. Was there an end game?
02:05You see you playing with this guy. You're laughing again.
02:09I mean we talked to him for what? That's two hours.
02:13The ring was nothing to do with killing the man in the cell was it? No.
02:15For some reason the ring comes in. He said I want the ring back.
02:19No you can't have it. And he flips. Bang.
02:29Was the underground stalked by a serial killer who pushed people from tube platforms to their deaths and then got away with it?
02:3730 years after Kelly was questioned by the police, his so called murder spree made headline news.
02:47Back into Kelly's old hearts.
02:51The story caught attention when it did first emerge in 2015 because Ciaran Kelly was branded the London Underground serial killer.
03:00It was a brilliant story for the tabloid media in England.
03:04You know an Irish serial killer who had gone undetected for years and this idea that the British government or the Home Office had hidden details of his crimes to ward off public panic.
03:18Like a lot of people I've stood on very, very busy London Underground platforms where you're kind of right up to the edge.
03:29You know you are in a vulnerable position then in the event that somebody might push you.
03:38All right Kelly.
03:40People can keep it all together.
03:43That's Jane's time to sit down for you.
03:45What can we talk about that?
03:47There it takes you back into the interview room.
03:49Last time, this is the last time we're going to talk to you.
03:51Kelly wasn't laughed.
03:52It was mad.
03:53Yeah, I'm touched.
03:54But he wasn't stupid.
03:55...the circumstances, and what I want to do is go through three things of you again if you've got no objections.
04:01Well he said he's in charge here.
04:03Well he is in charge.
04:04This is not with the station, he's in charge.
04:06You've got an accident.
04:07Which is the big one.
04:08Kelly, let me just tell you what it is, okay?
04:10Mr. Brown is in charge of this police station, I'm in charge of the whole area which includes this police station.
04:15We're both baristas.
04:18You've got the truth.
04:19We have.
04:20When he worked, Mr. Brown was a very, very good worker.
04:24But he wouldn't suffer very often, so he didn't work very much.
04:28Name them for me, the ones that you definitely killed.
04:32Christy Smith.
04:35Kelly said his first murder was in 1953, the time of the Queen's Coronation.
04:42His victim, Christy Smith, was a pal from Dublin.
04:47It was Queen's Coronation.
04:48He said, we went down to Baker Street.
04:51He was a Christian.
04:52Christy started taking the piss out of me.
04:56So I, I pushed him under a train.
05:01I said that after he killed Christy Smith, nobody came to him.
05:14Nobody bothered him.
05:15He said, what?
05:16That's right.
05:17That's right.
05:18Yeah.
05:19It instilled in him the belief that he was cleverer than anybody else.
05:28It's on your mind.
05:30It's playing times.
05:32It seems that Kelly's attacks on the London Underground started with Christy Smith,
05:38and ran right up to his arrest in 1983.
05:42You dick-
05:43Yeah.
05:44No.
05:45You dick-
05:47John Gordon.
05:51Now, starting off with this morning, you went on an ID parade.
05:54And I don't think there's much down in anyone's mind what you told us so far about
05:58that's the complete truth.
06:00Now, you were picked out in an ID parade, weren't you?
06:02Yeah.
06:03Right, and did you recognize him as well?
06:04Yes, sir.
06:05I drunk with him.
06:06I gave him a drink.
06:07And that's the man you pushed?
06:08I didn't push him.
06:09I gave him a wallet.
06:10Right, and why was that?
06:11I was like, I just went down to chew.
06:15No ticket, right?
06:16Yeah.
06:17He came along, he was a bit drunk.
06:18He wasn't real drunk, but he'd drink on him.
06:20He says, an old guy, the only drink.
06:22I says, I've no fucking drink.
06:23I went down to chew.
06:24He says, you must have.
06:25I says, fuck off.
06:26So I'm sitting down, he comes back, he says, what did you say?
06:29So we let fly at him.
06:30We missed.
06:31We hit him on the shoulder, and he went gone.
06:35No, he wasn't.
06:36There was a train coming in, I don't know.
06:39John Gordon, all right.
06:41You got 12.
06:42You got the right.
06:43It was .
06:44John Gordon went down on the train.
06:47Luckily, the train pulled up, and they got him out.
06:52He went to an ID parade and identified Kelly as a person who pushed him under the train.
07:01The previous year, 1982, Kelly was arrested for pushing Francis Taylor at Tooting Beck Station.
07:11He was accused of pushing Francis Taylor into what's known as a suicide pit.
07:16A pit which is beneath two live rails.
07:21But in order to get electrocuted, you had to touch both the rails.
07:25And he obviously just fell straight down between this pit.
07:30The tube just went straight over him without touching him.
07:36Francis Taylor was an alcoholic.
07:39When he came to act as a witness at court, the police had to put him into a bath before he appeared in court,
07:46because he came in such a disgraceful state.
07:50He was so drunk at the time when the incident happened that he couldn't really remember it.
07:55The verdict was that Kelly was not guilty.
08:00Counsel was surprised at the verdict.
08:07Kelly's crime area was immense.
08:12Kelly could have pushed somebody under a train in East London
08:17and been back in Clapham in two hours and back in the churchyard.
08:23Nobody would have learned.
08:45Did you make him in the churchyard at Tooting, was it?
08:47I was in the churchyard in two hours.
08:49This whole kind of murder admission flows from Kelly.
08:53It says he poisoned a man called Mickey Dunn in 1982 in Tooting.
08:58I couldn't stop him.
09:00I didn't kill him there in Denver.
09:01In the 70s, he kicked the man to death in Shepherd's Bush.
09:05Stabbed somebody else down in Bournemouth.
09:07Name him for me, the ones that you definitely killed.
09:10Christy Smith.
09:11Why Kelly's crimes, or this 30-year crime confession,
09:20could conceivably have gone on for so long is the nature of the victims.
09:23There's an assumption that because he was homeless, that that bothered him.
09:30Maybe it didn't.
09:32Nobody ever asked him that.
09:34There was no evidence to me to suggest that actually it did bother him.
09:37Maybe it suited his deviancy that he was able to evade detection for so long
09:41because he's operating in a subculture.
09:43You know, as I say, he's hidden amongst us.
09:45But nobody's going to take the Holmes vagrant seriously, are they?
09:48A white-collar person out killing prostitutes, for example,
09:53is much harder to conceal than somebody who's living in the underground.
10:03The nobody's own is of its time,
10:05and it was inhabited by a lot of Irish people
10:09who had fallen on hard times in London.
10:12No CCTV, no digital footprint, no machines.
10:16People going by nicknames, not the real names.
10:21Who are your witnesses?
10:22You're talking about people dying in this space,
10:26constantly in the grip of alcohol addiction.
10:32All right.
10:33Mr. Brown's going to ask...
10:35...that again.
10:37Yeah, it's interesting...
10:39...that's where it all...
10:46Yeah, that's it.
10:47That's the one.
10:49I would have never mentioned none of them.
10:51I just want to...
10:53Yeah, you really want to get Christy Smith off your mind, don't you?
10:55I want to get them all off your mind.
10:57Right, but that's the first.
10:58That's the big one.
11:00The police know me to doubt Kelly's claim
11:03that he killed Christy Smith at Baker Street Station in 1953.
11:10Name inform me that you definitely killed Christy 100% positive.
11:14You start to believe him.
11:15Why not?
11:16He's been pushing people under the train anyway.
11:18So, it's perfectly logical that that happened.
11:25Of course, we don't know anything about Christy Smith.
11:29Can't find any record of this.
11:31And we can't find Christy Smith.
11:40You really want to get Christy Smith off your mind, don't you?
11:43Yeah, but that's the first.
11:46That's the one.
11:51I was working on a team that was producing a no-biz podcast
11:54back in 2019, 2020.
11:59On the interview tape, he mentioned Christy Smith
12:02as being the first-bizder.
12:04When you go out and you kill a geezer
12:06and you don't get caught.
12:08You brought kill a geezer, right?
12:10And you're not captured.
12:11It plays on your mind.
12:16He said that this was the one that really set him off
12:18on a different path.
12:21As Detective Inspector Ian Brown said,
12:23if this was a lie, it meant that all of
12:26his claims could be a lie.
12:28You tell the truth of what you're saying.
12:29That's it.
12:30You don't tell the truth about everything.
12:31Kelly's story was that he and Christy were friends back in Dublin.
12:43And like a lot of Irish in the 50s, they crossed the water to England to find work.
12:48They seem to have gone over with two women.
12:53One of them was referred to as Christy's girlfriend.
12:56Kelly mentioned her name as Kathleen.
12:58And he said that there was another woman there.
13:01He didn't mention her name.
13:02The other thing that Kelly said about Kathleen was that she was on the game
13:06since she was a prostitute working in Liverpool.
13:15So that's Detective Inspector Ian Brown asking Kelly for more details.
13:19You can hear him angling for more clues.
13:21And he's asking what happened to Kathleen.
13:23And Kelly actually starts to mention some other names.
13:25This could be a relative of Christy Smith.
13:37Maybe it could be a father, but also the most likely scenario is
13:41it could be a brother of Christy Smith.
13:44What went through your mind after?
13:46Back home after that, didn't you?
13:48Yeah, I went back for a while, yeah.
13:50Kelly himself had been born in 1930.
13:52So we decided to look for people named Christopher Smith,
13:56born in Ireland, either side of 1930.
14:02And what it involved was just physically trawling through the registers of birth.
14:09Between the years of 1926 and 1934,
14:12we found 28 Christopher Smiths who had been born in Ireland.
14:16Of those, there were four that lived around the 2008 area.
14:22We found a set that matched.
14:26A Christopher Smith and a Paul Smith with a father and mother.
14:30You touch us with my shoes, right?
14:35You grow up and you kill a geezer.
14:37And then you just go by and you do a few, right?
14:39And then you're not captured, right?
14:41And then it's on the top shelf.
14:44It's on your mind.
14:45It's playing on your mind.
14:46It's playing on your mind, right?
14:47And then you're captured, right?
14:49So what do you do?
14:50Think.
14:51What do you do then?
14:56From the start, Kelly's account of how he killed his friend had confused the police.
15:02They searched, but found no trace of Christie Smith.
15:06It felt like a really significant part of the jigsaw puzzle, but we needed to find more.
15:12So what we set about doing was trying to find a living relative of the Christie Smith that we had found,
15:20who might be able to confirm how and when Christie had died.
15:24Was there a possibility that he could have died at the hands of Ciaran Kelly?
15:30You usually come back to Christie Smith because you really want to get Christie Smith off your mind, don't you?
15:46And what happened to Kathleen?
15:48You never saw her again after that?
15:49I've never seen her after that.
15:51Right, and did she know what happened?
15:53Honestly, I don't really know.
15:55She went back to Ireland because she knew Christie Smith's mother-in-law.
16:01She knew Paul Smith.
16:08Kelly had told the police that Kathleen was Christie Smith's girlfriend
16:13and that they'd all travelled to England together.
16:17The other thing that Kelly said about Kathleen was that she was on the game,
16:21as if she was a prostitute.
16:24She came from the same area as well, did she?
16:26No, she came from Cork.
16:28From Cork.
16:29Were they going out together?
16:30They were going out together.
16:31She was on the game.
16:32Yeah, it's all right.
16:33You, you, you come over here with a bloke.
16:35I've been arguing the whole time.
16:36And you book.
16:37You book with them and you're sleeping in the same room.
16:39And they're fucking arguing.
16:40So your head starts fucking going.
16:42So you say, fuck it, I'm pulling out.
16:44Yeah, so you came down to London.
16:46I says, fuck it, I'm away.
16:48I'm out of this town.
16:49So she says, well, I'm going with you too.
16:52So she's coming over to my side now.
16:54I just didn't fucking want that.
16:55You didn't want that?
16:56Didn't fucking want to, no.
16:57I mean, I could have had a bunk up with her anytime,
16:59but I didn't fucking want it.
17:01Playing as that.
17:02Why?
17:03Because she was on the game?
17:04No, I'm not really that way.
17:06I was going to try.
17:07You were in the game.
17:08I was just about to call.
17:09I've got to call.
17:10You were in your room.
17:11I didn't wanna see if your family was gone.
17:12There's no one.
17:13I don't know.
17:14I don't know.
17:15I'm here.
17:16I'm here.
17:17I'm here.
17:18I'm here.
17:19I'm here.
17:20I'm here.
17:21I'm here.
17:22I'm here.
17:23I'm here.
17:24I'm here.
17:25I'm here.
17:26I'm here.
17:27We found that Christy was actually one of 12 husbands, and that there was one living brother
17:36remaining.
17:37His name was Nick, and he's in his 80s now.
17:40He actually lived most of his life in London, but lives pretty clear.
17:43But he was able to confirm to us that he had had a brother called Christy, that Christy
17:49had lived in London, he'd gone London in the 1950s, and that he'd had a job as railway
17:56for two months.
17:57I got a photograph here, the two of us together actually, at that time.
18:03And they got her hanging on the wall.
18:06And yeah, I can just remember that he was going with that girl Kathleen, because he was
18:12a prostitute at that time.
18:16What Nick always said about their relationship was that Christy really wanted to marry Kathleen
18:21because he wanted her to go straight, as he said.
18:23He wanted her to stop working as a prostitute, and he wanted to be just the porter and for
18:28them to be able to build a life together.
18:30And when did Christy die?
18:32Well, I was there at 55, so it's going to be 56 or 57.
18:38Nick also affirmed that his brother Christy's life was cut short.
18:44He was hit by a train.
18:47But it wasn't at Baker Street, and it wasn't 1953, as Kelly says.
18:53That happened in Tinner.
18:55In where?
18:56Tinner.
18:57And the tube.
18:58You've had spoken on the tracks at night.
19:03When I saw Christy's report, it was really conclusive, because there were several witnesses
19:11listed who actually saw the accident happen.
19:15And it happened as Nick had described.
19:17He'd been working on one track.
19:20He'd warned a train was coming, so he stepped onto another track.
19:23But a train came from the opposite direction.
19:25And struck Christy, killing him instantly.
19:36After the tragic accident, it's Kathleen who was asked, as next of kin, to identify Christy's remains.
19:42In this report, she's named as Christy's wife.
19:47Married two years prior to Christy's death, which was something that we hadn't been aware of.
19:52She had identified through his socks, the boot, because it's pretty, unfortunately unrecognisable.
19:59I'm happy Christy Smith, because that's it.
20:02You make a pretty soft line, don't you?
20:05In the back of my mind, I've been thinking that Kelly must be responsible for this death.
20:10But when I was looking at the coroner's report, I was trawling through all the witnesses and the people that were present
20:16to see had there even been somebody called Ciaran Kelly there, in the background even.
20:23Absolutely not.
20:24There was no record of Ciaran Kelly being present at all when Christy died.
20:31Proof that Kelly did not kill Christy came 37 years too late for the investigation.
20:37You really want to get Christy Smith off your mind, don't you?
20:40I wanted to get them all off your mind.
20:42That's the big one.
20:43That was the one starting, yeah.
20:45It's now clear that his confession in 1983 was either confused or very clever.
20:52And yet the crazy thing is, Christy Smith died under a train.
21:01Kelly didn't do it.
21:03What happened to Baker Street?
21:05God only knows.
21:07Could it have been that Kelly pushed Smith somewhere in front of a train, thought he killed him and fled the scene,
21:12and forevermore thought he'd killed Christy Smith.
21:15Did Kelly go back to Ireland and find out that Christy Smith had died under a train?
21:21Christy had tried to push him under the train.
21:24I really don't know.
21:26But Kelly was convinced that he killed Christy Smith under a train at Baker Street.
21:32Could be that Kelly was pretty clever with the cops, spin them a story about Smith, try and kind of confuse the case.
21:51It's impossible to say.
21:53Are you trying to get into this?
21:56We can't get into Kelly's mind.
21:58But we noticed during the interviews that he would switch.
22:03All to insane.
22:14I discovered that Ciaran Kelly got married in England.
22:17He was married in 1961.
22:19He married an English woman who already had three kids.
22:24He did go on to have a couple of more children with his new wife.
22:32But at some point this marriage begins to break down.
22:36Almost certainly there's a correlation between the breakdown in Kelly's marriage and Kelly falling into a life of crime and alcohol abuse.
22:44But the years of it, Kelly's life was a mix of heavy drinking in London parks and some part-time work as a builder's navvy.
22:55But I always knew him as Ken, not Ciaran.
23:02I nicknamed him Mad Ken.
23:05And some silly things he'd done.
23:09We had a job in, oh God, an emergency job in Brixton.
23:15There was a cellar.
23:17There was three flats.
23:18The cellar was forever getting flooded.
23:20And all the people in the flat were told, don't use any water.
23:24We had dug the hole.
23:27The pipe was stacking up.
23:28The one we took off was sitting there ready to go back on.
23:31Just about to hand him the pipe.
23:34When somebody inside flushed the pipe.
23:39Right down on top of it.
23:40Now that's a guy that would scare the living daylights out of here.
23:46A pack of staff was done and her husband came out.
23:48He was a big man.
23:50God, he started swearing at them.
23:52If he had got out of the hole, now that I know about him, I know he'd have killed them.
23:56Had to hold him down, he was trying to dig his hands and he was trying to get out.
23:58He couldn't get out, but he was trying to.
23:59He's down nine foot.
24:00Had I not been there that then convinced now that.
24:05Had he got out of that hole.
24:08There'd be two more deaths and a tweeze.
24:11That's my opinion anyway.
24:17He had been sent to Broadmoor Psychiatric Prison.
24:21And it was the police fraud more because the court said that he was penally incorrigible and medically untreatable.
24:31Penally incorrigible means that there's nothing they can do to stop committing crimes.
24:36And medically untreatable was they couldn't give him any treatment which would make him better.
24:42I remember that it said his idea of going straight is to go out of here and commit a robbery.
24:48I don't know when he was dead or alive.
24:52I was half steamed up and I wasn't running.
24:55The kinds of things I came across on the tapes for me from Ciaran Kelly were, first of all, that lack of empathy.
25:01That lack of remorse.
25:02He's talking about crimes as if he was talking like he was going down to the beach to pick out a book.
25:07Did you try to do him?
25:08He did.
25:09He died.
25:10Did you do him?
25:11He's talking about how he fed him and the surgical spirits as if he was offering him ice cream.
25:14Did you know that they're speaking?
25:17Mickey Dan was killing me.
25:18But he could work.
25:19He could work.
25:21He could work.
25:24There is no tension between a normal, morally acceptable behaviour versus something that's quite deviant.
25:30In his head, it's just another way that he gets what he wants.
25:34Kelly's violence was often sudden and impulsive.
25:41But revenge was a deeper motive.
25:44And revenge links two of Kelly's suspected crimes.
25:48Why did you want to do him?
25:49Because he meant false statements.
25:52About what?
25:53About Toll's murder.
25:54In 1977, Kelly had been arrested for the murder of Edward Toll in a London churchyard.
26:03He'd taken a rope from round his waist that was keeping his trousers up, put it round Toll's neck and garrotted him.
26:10There were witnesses to the crime, but Kelly walked free.
26:21Now he had a score to settle.
26:25His target?
26:26A homeless man.
26:27Mickey Dunn.
26:28Mickey Dunn was another tramp.
26:46Dunn, he'd found a church.
26:50He decided he was going to do him because he told these liars about him at the old bailey church.
26:55It's Mickey Dunn that goes against you in that other murder, isn't it? The Toll murder?
27:00Yeah.
27:02And...
27:05I was in the church, I did.
27:10Now, Mickey Dunn, what did he do to him?
27:16I gave him drink, and what did he give him?
27:19Well, I didn't...
27:21Okay, and where did he get that from?
27:23Tablets.
27:26There were tablets in there as well?
27:28Yeah.
27:29What sort of tablets were there?
27:30I don't know what they were, I picked them up with the cameras.
27:32Alright, and how many did he put in? Like, how many of them?
27:36I'm not sure, maybe four to four plastic packages.
27:39Alright, so, you mix the stuff up, you put it in the white spirit.
27:43Now, did he put anything else with it when he gave it to him?
27:45Drink.
27:46Drink.
27:47Alright, and did you help him drink it?
27:48No.
27:49No.
27:52He made this cocktail of God knows what, and sat down with Mickey Dunn and persuaded him to drink it.
28:00Well, they don't need any persuading to drink anything.
28:04Did you know the stuff that Mickey Dunn was going to kill him then, or did you said it would?
28:11You said it would.
28:12I hoped it would.
28:13I kept slowly.
28:15Kelly had given him a couple of whacks because he didn't like it.
28:20He'd already made up his mind, he was going to do him.
28:24Mickey Dunn went to the homeless shelter and was rushed into St. Thomas' Hospital in London and died a couple of days later.
28:34The autopsy said sclerosis of the liver.
28:37Well, they've all got that.
28:40So, I died a natural disease.
28:43He simply doesn't care.
28:45You know, even though he's caught for the murders, there's no remorse and there's no genuine remorse.
28:50The difference between remorse and it being genuine felt.
28:53Empathy is a part of human nature.
28:56Most of us, when we're remorseful, feel sorry for what we've done or we feel guilty.
29:01People psychopathically aren't bothered with those emotions because they simply don't feel them in the first place.
29:06So, they don't feel guilt and they certainly don't feel genuine remorse and that's always a red flag.
29:15Ciaran Kelly's confession of multiple murder came only by chance.
29:21His arrest in 1983 was for petty theft.
29:24But Kelly's killing of William Boyd while in custody opened a can of worms for the British police.
29:35What he came in for originally was stealing a watch and a ring.
29:39Well, we found the watch, but couldn't find the ring.
29:43Kelly said he got rid of it and that was it.
29:46The professionals are all the truth, the truth.
29:49And I must have done something right because in the interview, Kelly put his hand up to his lips.
29:56And took the ring out and said you better have that.
29:59And he's had that in there for 48 hours in his mouth.
30:09Let me put something.
30:14Is it a chance you've been telling any lies and you hope that we're going to go off to pairings and that somehow or another you'll wiggle out of killing that man in the cell?
30:20It's up to you, isn't it?
30:26Right, are you trying to wriggle out of killing that man in the cell?
30:29No, you can take mine and screw the whole lot. It's one or the other.
30:33But you did kill the man in the cell here, didn't you?
30:36Yeah, yeah.
30:38But what about the ring now, boss?
30:40The ring?
30:41The ring is mine, yeah.
30:42Yeah, but the ring's got nothing to do with killing the man in the cell, hasn't it?
30:45All right, all right. Well, look, it's 20 past five now. We may as well go and have a cup of tea.
30:48No, but I want to have the ring.
30:50Your ring?
30:51Not yet, Kelly.
30:52Well, then I'm not going to...
30:53It's got to be the right time.
30:54Nothing's promising you.
30:55It's got to be the right time.
30:56Okay, look, they wouldn't let you have the ring back in the prison anyhow.
30:58Of course they would.
30:59It's not your property, Kelly.
31:00You're allowed to wear your ring in prison.
31:02Okay, look, can we talk about it to your solicitor when we go back to court?
31:05Solicitor, what is this?
31:07Let him ask for it. Let him ask for it.
31:09And if the court says you can have a bag, you can have a bag.
31:12Because we have taken the property from you as an exhibit, and it's got to go before the court.
31:17Exhibit? How exhibit?
31:19Well, that is a court, but it's got to go before the court.
31:21It's an exhibit as to why you got arrested.
31:23I mean, you were arrested because of the ring, weren't you?
31:25That's why you were arrested originally.
31:27Yeah.
31:28Yeah, so the court will decide whether you still... whether you didn't.
31:30Yeah, well, then I'm pleading not guilty to the whole lot.
31:32That's it.
31:33I'm not guilty to the one and...
31:35And then you go and chase all your...
31:37Chase all your...
31:38Chase all your...
31:39Chase all your...
31:40Alright, Kelly.
31:41Alright, alright.
31:42That's the way it stays.
31:43I'm not guilty to the murder of the man down in that cell.
31:44Because of the ring.
31:45Because we won't give you the ring.
31:46I'm not guilty of the murder of the man down in that cell.
31:49And you're saying that because he won't give you the ring.
31:51I'm not saying anything now and that's it.
31:53That's what you came in here for in the first place.
31:54Oh, I want...
31:55I am not guilty of the murder of the...
31:56Have it Kelly.
31:57I am guilty of the murder of the...
31:58Because we won't give you the ring.
31:59I am guilty of the...
32:00The man down in that cell.
32:01And that's it.
32:02Yes.
32:03I'm guilty of the murder of the...
32:04That's what you came in here for in the first place.
32:06Oh, I'm...
32:07I'm not going to do the more...
32:08Have it, Kelly.
32:10Because we won't give you the...
32:12The man down in the...
32:14The man down in the...
32:15The man down in the...
32:17Interview...
32:22After a long confession of 11 or more killing...
32:34At the very end, Kelly turned the tables and denied everything.
32:41So the police decided to focus on just two crimes.
32:46William Boyd in the police cell...
32:48And Hector Fisher on Clapham Common.
32:51You've got Kelly...
32:52Banged to rights, one in the cell.
32:56By his own admission, you've got him...
32:59Bang to rights for Fisher.
33:01Okay, so he starts to put his hands up to five, six...
33:04Seven...
33:05Eight...
33:07But how many convictions do you want...
33:09To get him sent away for life?
33:12How much time are you going to spend...
33:14On...
33:16Getting more and more and more evidence...
33:18And...
33:19Sad as it is to say...
33:22All the victims...
33:24Every one of them...
33:25Is a tramp with...
33:28No fixed abode...
33:29No family...
33:30We don't even know who they are...
33:31Half of them.
33:33There comes a time when you've got to stop...
33:37And say, I don't know...
33:38Well, have we got enough here?
33:44The police charged Kelly with Hector Fisher's murder...
33:47Even though part of his story didn't match the evidence.
33:51There have been a rumour going around...
33:54That he had been stabbed...
33:57In the balls...
33:59And that is what Kelly...
34:02Said that he'd done.
34:04And I don't think they were stamps.
34:08I'm not sure.
34:09But I cut his balks.
34:10Hello!
34:11But I cut his balks.
34:14In the autopsy report...
34:16Kelly's admissions are absolutely correct...
34:18But crucially...
34:19There's no evidence of...
34:21Hector Fisher being cut in the bollocks.
34:24I'm not sure.
34:25But I cut his balks.
34:26Hello!
34:27I'm not sure.
34:28Whether he committed the murder...
34:32And have forgotten...
34:33I mean, after all, it was...
34:35It might be that he had simply...
34:38Heard these balks...
34:40And so...
34:41Admitted it.
34:44It has been mitered.
34:46I don't mitered.
34:47I don't mean...
34:47Yeah.
34:50By Kelly's own admission...
34:52His brain had been mitered by drink.
34:54So I don't think...
34:56The police were overly concerned...
34:57That this...
34:58Particular aspect of Kelly's admission...
35:01That he cut Hector Fisher in the bollocks...
35:03Didn't stand up.
35:05The police concluded...
35:06That the weight of evidence was enough.
35:15I think he was...
35:16Going for...
35:18Infamy.
35:19That he...
35:20Wanted to be known...
35:22As a mass murderer.
35:25He enjoyed...
35:26Being in the...
35:28Limelight.
35:38We're in the pub...
35:39Having a drink...
35:40And one of those...
35:41Heard a story about Kent.
35:42I said...
35:43What happened about Kent?
35:44He's been arrested for...
35:45A murder in Tappham Common.
35:47I'll be honest with you...
35:48I didn't think he would...
35:49I didn't think he would...
35:50I didn't think he would have...
35:51Done anything like that.
35:52I'll be quite honest with you.
35:53I thought he was just...
35:54Kind of mistaken identity.
35:55He just happened to be the wrong place...
35:56In the wrong time.
35:57Now I did hear...
35:59That Kent...
36:00He was on rough times...
36:01And he was sleeping rough...
36:02In the park...
36:03In the summertime.
36:04I heard that story.
36:05In around the same time...
36:06As the murder.
36:07The Kent was...
36:08On his uppers...
36:09And living on the...
36:10He should...
36:11But he was a good...
36:12Rave there...
36:13And a good living.
36:14In 1984.
36:15In 1984.
36:16Ciaran Kelly was sent for trial...
36:18At the old...
36:19B**** criminal court.
36:20In London.
36:23The outcome was...
36:24That Ciaran Kelly was convicted of murder...
36:26Of...
36:27Fischer.
36:28He was also convicted of manslaughter...
36:31Of Boyd.
36:33Now...
36:34Quite how the...
36:35Jury came to the conclusion...
36:37That it was manslaughter.
36:38We don't know.
36:39Found guilty...
36:40Kelly was sent for life...
36:41At a high security prison...
36:42In Durham.
36:43England.
36:44My instincts are...
36:45That he wasn't really...
36:46Worried about it.
36:47The only effect on him...
36:48Would be that he wouldn't get...
36:49Drink.
36:50But of course...
36:51He'd get fed.
36:52And he would have...
36:53A roof over his head.
36:54The only effect on him...
36:55Would be that he wouldn't get...
36:56Drink.
36:57But of course...
36:58He'd get fed.
36:59And he would have...
37:00A roof over his head.
37:02And he would have...
37:03A roof over his head.
37:13It's the underground...
37:14Once stalked by...
37:15A serial killer...
37:16Who pushed people...
37:17From tube platforms...
37:18To their deaths...
37:19And then...
37:20Got away with it.
37:23When Kelly was jailed in 1984...
37:25His story was more or less...
37:27Forgotten.
37:28But 30 years later...
37:30There were claims...
37:31That he was behind...
37:32Even more attacks...
37:33Unreported at the time.
37:36I've never heard of anything...
37:38On this sort of scale...
37:40This nature of...
37:41Of callous...
37:42Apparently the detective was told...
37:43That it was somebody...
37:44With a half...
37:45Not wishing to spread panic...
37:46But I do wonder...
37:47As an investigation...
37:48We might consider reopening...
37:49The Kelly story...
37:50Just exploded out of nowhere...
37:51In 2015...
37:52Picked up by the BBC...
37:54All the tabloid...
37:55Media...
37:56In the UK...
37:57The submission of murder...
37:59From an Irish man...
38:01Called Ciaran Kelly...
38:02A litany of crimes...
38:04Upwards of...
38:0520 plus murders...
38:07Dating all the way back...
38:08To 1953...
38:09Kelly told police...
38:11I'm your man for this one...
38:13But now I've started...
38:14I want to tell you about...
38:15Some more...
38:16I've done in the past...
38:18He was described...
38:19As being the underground killer...
38:21I didn't think...
38:22That there was the evidence there...
38:24I felt that...
38:26They were trying to...
38:27Blow it out...
38:28Of all proportion...
38:29So I'm not playing...
38:31But I'm just...
38:32I don't understand...
38:33He went for gone...
38:34Not the train coming in...
38:35And I said...
38:40I really...
38:41Don't know...
38:42To this day...
38:43Uh...
38:44Whether Kelly...
38:45Is absolutely sure...
38:47Of the truth...
38:48Of all of this...
38:49Our records show...
38:50That you're...
38:51When that one was done...
38:52In coronation...
38:53We proved him...
38:55To be a liar...
38:56Admitting to murders...
38:57That he could...
38:58Possibly have done...
38:59Because he was in prison...
39:02And the thing...
39:03That started it all...
39:04He never did either...
39:08The truth...
39:09About Kieran Kelly...
39:10And what he really did...
39:11All that time ago...
39:13Is distorted...
39:14By poverty...
39:15And alcohol addiction...
39:16The fuck...
39:17Of London...
39:18Nobody's own...
39:19Starting with...
39:20Christy Smith...
39:21Kelly claimed...
39:2230 years of murder...
39:23Right up to the time...
39:24Of his arrest...
39:25The police investigation...
39:26Linked them...
39:27With five killings...
39:28Or more...
39:29But nothing is clear...
39:30For me...
39:31Definitely...
39:32Kill two people...
39:33William Boyd...
39:34Hector Fisher...
39:35After that...
39:36I believe...
39:37He killed...
39:38Edward Hall...
39:39As confident...
39:40Of his claims...
39:41That he murdered...
39:42Mickey Dunn...
39:43By way of poisoning...
39:44After Mickey Dunn...
39:45I think...
39:46You're getting into the realm...
39:47Of kind of speculation...
39:48Four...
39:49Is a bit of a reach...
39:50Three...
39:51I could say...
39:52With confidence...
39:53Two...
39:54Certainly...
39:55If Ciaran Kelly...
39:56Killed three people...
39:57That makes him a serial killer...
39:58The definition...
39:59Of a serial killer...
40:00Was developed by the FBI...
40:01As a somebody who kills...
40:02Three or more...
40:03In the day...
40:04Two...
40:05In the day...
40:06I think...
40:07As confident...
40:08Of his...
40:09The claims...
40:10That he murdered...
40:11Mickey Dunn...
40:12By way of poisoning...
40:13After Mickey Dunn...
40:15I think...
40:16You're getting into the realm...
40:17Of kind of speculation...
40:19Four...
40:20Is a bit of a reach...
40:21Three...
40:22I could say...
40:23With confidence...
40:24Two...
40:25Certainly...
40:26If Ciaran Kelly...
40:27three or more individuals over a period of time, but there's a cooling off period between them.
40:33Kieran Kelly absolutely fits that definition.
40:38This just differentiates people who commit crimes of mass murder, let's say where they kill multiple
40:41people in one that's a mass murder. But what we are noticing is that most serial killers are in
40:50facts like cats and syscopathy, which helps us understand their personality, which helps explain
40:55they're able to maintain serial killing over a period of time.
40:59How many people do you kill?
41:05Watching his brain work was like clockwork, because he had a little smirk come over his face,
41:10I think I'll tell him this, and he'd tell you an out and out lie. He'd laugh at something,
41:15he'd laugh at it. You get these expressions and you knew that Kelly was coming in or going out.
41:31Kelly's life was about Kelly, and he drifted into that continual circle of drunkenness, and the only
41:40place he could get it was amongst the tramps. So he became one. But I think once he was in there,
41:47he found that he was capable of doing just about anything that Kelly wanted.
41:54I just thought how naive I am, and went through all this and never detected anything like that.
42:01Even I got to think, did he actually do all of this? Is it possible? He could have done all that
42:05without somebody knowing something. But the best way I can describe it, he was quite a decent fella.
42:12But when he had a few drinks, he became Jekyll and Hyde.
42:23Do I think there was something deeply complex that was driving Kelly that he was gratification,
42:30like sexual or otherwise, through these murders? I don't think so. The answer is possibly a lot simpler
42:37and a lot less complex. The mere fact that at the end of this wandering confession that all Kelly wanted
42:46was a ring that he stole off a man in a park. This was the thing that was going to give him peace,
42:53not the fact that he just cleared the books, as he said himself. This confession of murder for 30 years.
43:00I don't see somebody who would have been regretful or remorseful for the life that they led.
43:08I think what Kelly did in the nobody zone would have given him sleepless nights in those final years.
43:23The confession made here, they are all the truth, yeah? Kelly, have you done anything you want to tell us about?
43:43I forget now. I'm honest.
43:45Is there that many?
43:49It is, boss. But my brain is fucked. It does be mithered. I don't murder, I be murdered, but mithered.
43:57Oh, by alcohol?
43:58Yeah. And I go and do a ten. And I don't give a fuck.
44:15It is, boss.
44:16It is that many...
44:16I don't give a fuck.
44:20Okay, I don't give a fuck.
44:22Say goodbye.
44:23Yeah.
44:23Maybe you...
44:23Say goodbye.
44:25Yeah.
44:25Say goodbye to me.
44:27Okay, bye.
44:29I will not give a fuck.
44:30I will not give a fuck.
44:32Bye.
44:33Bye.
44:33Bye.
44:34Bye.
44:35Bye.
44:36Bye.
44:38Bye.
44:39Bye.
44:41Bye.
44:41Bye.
44:41Bye.
44:42Bye.
44:43Bye.
44:44Bye.
44:45Bye.
44:45Bye.
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