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00:00You want us to know about clear and telly?
00:10Over the years in prison, I've met a few serial killers.
00:15First you have the state one serial killer.
00:18Quiet and a loner.
00:20Doesn't mix with the others.
00:22Then you have the happy-go-lucky killer.
00:25Laughs and jokes as it gives them an audience.
00:30This is how Mr. Kelly lived his life in prison.
00:38Was the underground once stalked by a serial killer
00:41who pushed people from tube platforms to their deaths
00:44and then got away with it?
00:47Kelly's crime area was immense.
00:54Kelly could have pushed somebody under a train in East London
00:58and then back in Clapham in two hours
01:01and back in the churchyard.
01:04Nobody would have known.
01:10Alright Kelly.
01:11How many people did you shoot all together?
01:16He talks about another one and another one and another one
01:19and you suddenly say to yourself,
01:21what the hell have I got here?
01:23Did you know that the stuff you were giving Mickey down
01:26was going to kill him then?
01:27Or did you hope it would?
01:28You hoped that it would.
01:29No.
01:31This litany of confessions.
01:33And I'm pulling it in.
01:35This was the era of Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nielsen.
01:39Because for this one, I've been admitted to this one.
01:43Kelly's...
01:45North of that.
01:46I'll put that down then.
01:47What's that down there?
01:48That's heaven now.
01:50The cops thought that they may well be in the presence
01:51of Britain's most prolific serial killer.
01:54It doesn't fit the profile of somebody who's homeless
01:57and an alcoholic.
01:58They come across as a nobody.
02:01But yet, in that interview room,
02:03he's well able to exert his own arrogance.
02:05All right, Kelly.
02:07How many people do you think you're killed altogether?
02:09Oh, Jesus.
02:10I don't fucking know, honestly.
02:12Who's in the chapter?
02:14Was there an endgame?
02:16You see, you're playing a game with us, Kelly.
02:18You're laughing again.
02:20I mean, we talked to him for what?
02:22Best part of two hours.
02:24The ring was nothing to do with killing the man in the closet.
02:27No.
02:28For season, the ring comes into his head.
02:30I want the ring back.
02:31No, you can't have it.
02:33And he flips.
02:34No, really, that doesn't matter.
02:38It's the truth.
02:40Yeah, you got the truth as far as I'm concerned.
02:42The story kicks off in August 1983, when Kelly is arrested in Clapham, London, for stealing a gold ring.
03:04The police foolishly put him in a cell with other drunks.
03:18It was about quarter past five.
03:22I was deciding to have an early night, so I walked down the stairs to go out.
03:28And just as I got outside in the yard, a constable ran out, governor, governor, quick, quick, down the cells.
03:36Somebody else!
03:38He can't fucking knock!
03:40Give me your own cells!
03:42Send me your system to the cells now!
03:46So I went down the cells and there was Boyd on his back.
03:50He'd been garrotted with a pair of socks.
03:54Kelly is sitting in the corner and no socks on.
04:00I'm not a great detective, but I could work that one out.
04:04We had a murder.
04:10On the news, they said there's been someone murdered, or someone has died, in the cells at Clapham.
04:18And someone has been arrested for it.
04:21I got into work and half-jokingly said to my assistant,
04:26I wonder whether Ciaran has anything to do with that.
04:29When he went with the bullet from a gun, if the fuse was lit and Kelly, it was going all the way.
04:36And there was no bounds to the violence that he would use.
04:41I've got on better than I've got on with some other people.
04:45He asked me to bring in a...
04:47I seem to remember it was.
04:49There was a kebab shop next door.
04:51So I used to get him a kebab every time and bring it in.
04:59I'm Ian Browns.
05:08Today, this is 1983.
05:10I broke some...
05:11G702 for a new tape.
05:14He's...
05:20By 1983, the British had begun to record interviews with suspects.
05:25One tape has survived of Ciaran Kelly's final interview in custody.
05:32It's the confession of an Irish serial killer in his own words.
05:37It takes you back into the interview room.
05:50Let's go through a few things again.
05:52We've got no objections.
05:54The longer you can keep all...
05:56The more...
05:57The more...
05:58Something.
05:59Do you remember...
06:00The afternoon, I came down to the cell...
06:02Yeah.
06:03And I showed you a photograph.
06:04Not a good guy, but I was always lucky.
06:07And I was lucky to be the one that...
06:10Tend to...
06:11Talked to that day because...
06:13He talked.
06:15This chair here.
06:16Yeah, just...
06:17Round the back of that, okay?
06:18Now sit down there.
06:19Can I have a light, please?
06:20Of course you can.
06:21How are you, Kelly?
06:22Alright.
06:23Do you want a cup of tea?
06:24A cup of tea?
06:25Coffee?
06:26No, nothing from my dinner.
06:27A cup of tea, please.
06:28Tea?
06:29Sugar?
06:30Sure, please.
06:31Sit down, Kelly.
06:32I'll go through it.
06:33I know the circumstances.
06:34And what I want to do is I want to go through a few things of you again, if you've got no objections.
06:48He said he's in charge here.
06:50He is in charge.
06:51There's no other station in charge. You come from Brixton.
06:54Which is the one.
06:55Kelly, let me just tell you what it is, okay?
06:57Mr. Brown is in charge of this police station.
06:59I'm in charge of the whole area which includes this police station.
07:02Yeah.
07:03Alright?
07:04Yeah.
07:05We should know that by now.
07:06You're speaking to us off.
07:07I'm just explaining it to you.
07:08You know the ranking.
07:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:10It doesn't affect it because what we're both after is the truth.
07:13You've got the truth as far as I'm concerned.
07:16We have.
07:17So do you mind if we go just a few points again?
07:20Ah, just the points.
07:22Okay.
07:23Fair enough.
07:26What we're both after is the truth.
07:28Yeah, you've got this as far as I'm concerned.
07:30We have.
07:31Do you mind if we go through...
07:32When we started talking about what he'd done before, I said to him,
07:37Where did it all start then?
07:38Like, when did all this violence start?
07:41I said, Coronation, 1953.
07:45The next station is Baker Street.
08:00Kelly grew up in Dublin and first moved to London around the time of the coronation in 1953.
08:11He travelled with a friend, Christie Smith.
08:13But the truth turned sour and led to Kelly's first killing.
08:20He said, we came down, we came down to London from Liverpool with two prostitutes.
08:26I said, who's we? He said, me and Christie Smith.
08:30All right then.
08:31Mr. Brown's going to ask you about Christie Smith and go over that again.
08:40Yeah, it's interesting, Kelly, that when you talk to us, you usually come back to Christie Smith because that's where it all started.
08:45Yeah, that's it. That's the one. I would have never mentioned none of this one. Fuck it.
08:54Yeah, you really want to get Christie Smith on your mind, don't you?
08:56I want to get them all in mind.
08:58Right, but that's the first. That's the big one.
09:00Well, that's the one that started me panicking like, you know, I don't mean panicking like to run away.
09:07Yeah, is that what started you on the drink as well or were you already on it?
09:11I was on it, but I was able to hold it. In other words, it was able to come out of the money in me pockets.
09:16So you were a drinker as opposed to an alcoholic?
09:19Yeah.
09:21And when did Christie Smith, obviously that played on your mind a lot, yeah?
09:25It played on me mind.
09:29It was Queen's coronation. He said, we went down to Baker Street tube station.
09:36Christie started taking the piss out of me and telling me I was gay because I didn't want to sleep with one of the women.
09:46He said, so I pushed him onto a train.
09:49I said, you get him? Oh yeah.
09:50I said, and that's what's up. He said.
09:51I said, well, why are you telling me this now? He said, well, I'm coping the rights.
09:55You've got me for the one in the cell. I can't get out of that. So I thought I might as well clear them all up.
10:01What you're telling is that you've been playing on your mind for some. You've caught bank the rights of Boyd. You know there's no way out of that. You then decide to come clean and tell us all the truth. And that is right, is it? That's right.
10:17He didn't worry anymore after that. If he wanted to kill somebody, he'd kill somebody. And you get away with it. And the more you get away with it, the more it doesn't matter when you do it.
10:27And when you do Christie, obviously, obviously that played in your mind a lot, yeah?
10:34Played in my mind and every time I'd see when I came back here and there'd be some trouble and I'd see a lot zipping up and then I'd start thinking that, well, t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t.
10:56Or what? They're going to need you for that? Yeah.
10:59How do you feel? How do you feel when you do it? Does a lot go through to don't you care anymore?
11:05It doesn't worry me. It doesn't worry? No.
11:09Do you think I'm going to do a murder? No. Just say I go out of here in the mail, right? Yeah, yeah.
11:15Then there'd be nothing in my head. Or if I was at the tube station, wait on a train and someone comes over arguing, I'd get up and walk away.
11:23Because, you know, I'm clear of them. But at that time I wasn't.
11:26Okay, Kelly, what you're telling us now is because you want to get more clear.
11:30Yeah. Right. And why should you tell us now?
11:32Because I'm in for this one. I've admitted to this one, innit?
11:35For Boyd in itself? Yeah, I wouldn't mention any of them, only I'm for the one down here in that straight.
11:41And because you've been caught for a straight one, you are admitting all the others.
11:45Yeah.
11:49You put yourself in white shoes, right?
11:51Yeah.
11:54I'm captured.
11:56Right?
11:57It's un...
11:58Un...
11:59It helps you.
12:00It's plenty of times.
12:02After the murder of Christy Smith, Kelly went home to Dublin to keep a low profile.
12:18But it didn't last.
12:20Kelly was back where it all started.
12:24It seems in the early years, when Kelly was back here in the late 50s and even into the early mid 60s,
12:32you know, Kelly is keeping his nose clean, working in construction, building a life for himself.
12:41I was a builder.
12:44People used to buy houses and we used to run in it.
12:48For the electrical work, we'd done a lot.
12:52Kelly was young and strong and got casual work as a builder's navvy.
13:01But Booz was the real boss.
13:04When he wasn't working, Kelly spent his time drinking in parks and graveyards with other homeless men.
13:14That's probably how I met him.
13:16I didn't know anything about him in a little bit.
13:18One day I was on a job in...
13:20In Ballam.
13:21I was renovating a house.
13:23And we had a skip delivered.
13:25And the rocket started up time then.
13:27So...
13:28There was a guy boxing the hoarding.
13:31And when I say boxing, it's actually a painful...
13:33It wasn't just tapping to them with me.
13:37But our eyes made contact.
13:39So he came down beside me.
13:41Fist clenched, red face.
13:43I said, can you fill the skip?
13:45Yes.
13:46I said, we'll be here later to talk in the morning.
13:48Flicked me secret right away.
13:49I walked into the house.
13:50Thinking he's going to fall.
13:51But he didn't need to sit.
13:52But when I seen this morning...
13:54A guy's hair combed back.
13:57But this man was a totally different human being.
14:00Jekyll and Hyde.
14:02And we finished our job a little bit late in Vox.
14:04And as I was passing the road.
14:05Dropping the two lessons with me.
14:06He said...
14:08I'd forgotten about him.
14:09So went down to the job.
14:10And there he's sitting down to the job.
14:11And this is a quarter past six.
14:14But the skip was full.
14:15And he had more on top than he had in it.
14:18I couldn't believe it.
14:20When I went down, that house was cleaner than this pub.
14:23And part of the garden cleaned up.
14:24And everything was in the skip.
14:26I thought I'd hit the jackpot here.
14:29That was first.
14:30And he was a good worker to give him his due.
14:32He was a good worker.
14:35So if you could bank the rights, you mean?
14:37Bank the rights, what did you do?
14:39Will you tell me?
14:42Kelly had been arrested for stealing a gold ring.
14:45It was a routine case.
14:47Nothing special at first.
14:51But a moment of violence from Kelly...
14:54Exploded a caveworms for the British police.
14:59Why did you do it?
15:01For somebody to be actually murdered inside the cell...
15:03Is very, very unusual.
15:07Really, it was the start of the most bizarre case...
15:11I've ever come across.
15:13Right, you said...
15:15You said...
15:16One had burned somebody somewhere to death.
15:18Alright?
15:19Or somebody was burned in a skipper.
15:22Good morning, Clap and Common.
15:23Clap and Common.
15:24Remember them going up the cunts.
15:26Yeah.
15:27Was that you?
15:28What?
15:29Was that you?
15:30You're rubbing your hands.
15:31Was that you?
15:32No.
15:33Did you do that?
15:34What?
15:35Did you do...
15:36Well put that down then.
15:37What's that down there?
15:38That's eleven now.
15:39Put it down.
15:40Hmm?
15:45Was that you?
15:46Huh?
15:47Was that you?
15:48You're rubbing your hands.
15:49Was that you?
15:52Kelly's case was just...
15:54Totally bizarre and unique.
15:59Out of a little...
16:00Tupney-hapney robbery of a...
16:02Ring and a watch from an old guy...
16:05Comes this...
16:07Amazing story.
16:08I don't know about it.
16:09I don't know.
16:10You really understand.
16:11Well this is the last time...
16:12This is...
16:14So let's...
16:15We'll just finish like that, Kelly.
16:16Just a quick counter.
16:18For some reason...
16:19Can't jump up and decide to do...
16:23Shadow boxing.
16:27Shout out Barry McGuigan.
16:28Barry McGuigan.
16:29And then he'd sit down again.
16:31It was so bizarre but...
16:33That memory only came back to me...
16:35When I listened to that tape.
16:36That tape.
16:49Alright, Kelly.
16:50How many people do you think you've killed?
16:54I don't fucking know.
16:55Honestly.
16:56I don't...
16:57Right, well this is probably...
16:58This is probably the last time we're gonna talk.
16:59Right?
17:00So let's...
17:01Let's just...
17:02We'll just finish it up, Kelly.
17:03Right?
17:04Just sit down...
17:05Up in your head.
17:06About how many...
17:07You think you've killed.
17:08How many you think you might have killed.
17:10And how many you're sure you're killed.
17:12Right?
17:13How many are you sure you're killed?
17:14100% positive.
17:17Name them for me.
17:18The ones that you definitely killed.
17:22So you met him in the churchyard...
17:24Tooting was it?
17:25I was in the churchyard...
17:26Tooting was it?
17:27I was in the churchyard...
17:28This whole kind of...
17:29Murder admissions flows from Kelly.
17:31What did you do to him?
17:32He says he poisoned a man called Mickey Dunn...
17:34In 1982 in Tooting.
17:36Switching them...
17:37You can kill them there and then.
17:39He pushed...
17:40Jock Gordon...
17:41Another homeless street drinker...
17:43In front of a tube train.
17:44The same year...
17:45He pushed another man...
17:46Francis Taylor...
17:47In front of a tube train.
17:49In the 70's...
17:50He said he kicked a man to death...
17:52In Shepherd's Bush...
17:53Stabbed somebody else down in Bournemouth.
17:55Name them for me.
17:56The ones that you definitely killed.
17:57Christy...
17:58100%
18:00And he goes all the way back to 1953.
18:04The year he says this murder spree began...
18:07When he pushed...
18:08A Dublin man called Christy Smith...
18:10In front of a tube train...
18:11At Baker Street station.
18:16Christy Smith.
18:17Christy Smith.
18:18Like 100% positive.
18:19Yeah?
18:20And the...
18:21Yeah...
18:22The cunt...
18:23The cunt...
18:24The derelict.
18:25In the house fissure.
18:27Yeah.
18:30Coronation buildings.
18:31Well we're not sure about that one.
18:33We'll leave that one out.
18:34We'll leave that one out.
18:35Yeah.
18:36What about here?
18:38Yeah...
18:39Two...
18:40Bush.
18:41No, no, no.
18:42What about here?
18:43Huh?
18:44Come on, we've got three at the moment.
18:45There's one in...
18:46In the bush.
18:47In Shepherd's Bush.
18:48Yeah.
18:49I'm not sure again.
18:50We don't know about that one.
18:51Alright?
18:52And the last one was...
18:53Here.
18:54Here.
18:55In the cell.
18:56Alright, now is there anything else you want to tell us that you've done?
19:00Mickey done?
19:01Mickey done.
19:02Is there anything else you want to tell us you've done?
19:04I can't.
19:06Honestly fucking God, I haven't got a clue.
19:08I don't know.
19:09I'm being this now, really.
19:10Oh.
19:11I've been infected with alcohols.
19:13I smacked them.
19:14Hurt them.
19:15They're dead.
19:16They're half dead.
19:17I don't know about it.
19:18I don't have...
19:19I'll sneak out.
19:20I'll come back.
19:21I don't want to shout my head out.
19:23I sit down, quiet, drink them.
19:26I don't start shouting about it.
19:29You know what I mean?
19:30Alright, so you never know whether they're dead or not?
19:32No, much more.
19:33I don't...
19:34This was the era of Peter Sutcliffe.
19:39Dennis Nielsen.
19:41Kelly's confession of murder was, you know, north of that.
19:46Ian Brown and his fellow detective thought they may well be in the presence of Britain's most prolific serial killer.
19:54Do you care when you...
19:55Does anything go through your mind or don't you care anymore?
19:59Doesn't worry.
20:00Doesn't worry.
20:01No.
20:02In those days, everything was paper and we sat down and read Kelly's file and found that he was a drunk, he was a tramp, he was a petty thief, except he had one thing on his record that not many tramps had.
20:21On Kelly's face, there was a previous murder charge from 1977, five years before his arrest in Clapham.
20:32A homeless man called Toll had been strangled in London.
20:37At the time, Kelly was the only suspect, but walked free.
20:43The crime remained unsolved.
20:47Because of...
20:48Even though he's been found not guilty, I thought, I'll just try to see if I can get him to actually confess to that one while he's here.
20:58So I said to him, what about the others, Kelly?
21:02And he went dead silent and then he looked at me and said, you're talking about Fisher, are you?
21:11I didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
21:15Fisher meant nothing to me.
21:17But I look at the sergeant and he excuses himself and goes out and gets somebody to rush up to Scotland Yard and get the file on Fisher.
21:28When it comes back, we find that it was an unsolved murder.
21:34The Fisher murder was on Clapham Common.
21:40One of Kelly's regular haunts in the London Underground.
21:50The man who was murdered in Clapham Common in 1975 was Peter Fisher, who was kind of a failed businessman.
21:57Enjoyed the drink, obviously had fallen on hard times, so found himself in the company of Kelly and a kind of cohort of street drinkers who used the Common.
22:08All right, I want you to move on now and talk about Fisher.
22:13Would you tell me again how you did it?
22:16I gave him a wallop and I cut him.
22:22I don't think they were stabs, I'm not sure, but I cut his bollocks.
22:27And how many times did you stab him?
22:29He put a good drink on me.
22:31What did you hit him dead with?
22:32Big, fucking big thing that I had in my hand. Heavy.
22:36Kelly says that Fisher kind of made a pass at him.
22:46Well actually, Kelly says that Fisher wanted his arse.
22:51He used a bit of a bar as well.
23:04And how was he when you left him?
23:06How was he when you left him?
23:08He went down.
23:11Was he dead?
23:12I don't know if he was dead or alive, nor was I worrying.
23:19The most kind of gruesome injury he said he inflicted on Hector Fisher was that he cut him and he, like in Kelly's words, he cut him in the bollocks.
23:26Would you tell me again how you did him?
23:30I gave him a wallop and I cut him, I don't think they were stabs.
23:34I'm not sure.
23:39When you left him and you went back to the skipper, where was he then when you left him?
23:45On the bench.
23:56The nobody's own was a world that existed in London in the 60s, 70s.
24:06Very much associated with Irish people who fell on hard times in this era and had alcohol addiction issues.
24:15Because of the vagrancy laws in Britain, where it was illegal to be on the street if you were homeless,
24:20retreated into this foggy world of London park lands and commons and graveyards.
24:27A kind of subculture emerged of people who knew each other only by their county of origin and possibly their first name or a nickname.
24:35So like a Cork John or a Clare Liam.
24:39It's called Mick.
24:41The B-C-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-
25:11they start drinking of spirits or magical spirits
25:15and what was your own drink of preference?
25:18the V-
25:19red or white, I preferred red
25:22the group at King's Cross were made up mostly of Scotch people
25:34in the West End at Leicester Square
25:37they were made up of all sorts
25:39the fire hung out, they were from Ireland
25:45they were in Camden Town in Euston
25:47my parents were Irish, my grandparents, my great-grandparents
25:55it went back as far as you could remember
25:59the vagrancy laws produced cultures of savagery
26:05so you need to get some money
26:07or get their drink
26:09then the violence would start
26:13then someone might back them up
26:15and you'd have to back up your faction
26:18or else you'd say
26:19fuck this
26:20this is nothing to do with me
26:22I don't want to get nicked today
26:24I want to live another day
26:26then someone might pull you the next day
26:29and say you fucked off
26:31and that's why let's start
26:33because you left
26:34it was more like ancient Sparta
26:38than swinging 60s London
26:40Fisher
26:44would you tell me again
26:48tell me again how you did him
26:50and how you did him
26:51and how you did him
26:55Kelly has just confessed to the brutal murder of Hector Fisher
27:03but when police checked the case notes from 1975
27:09Kelly's graphic description doesn't match up
27:13but courage, folks
27:14the inference was that Fisher was a homosexual
27:18Kelly was offended
27:20to think that somebody was gay
27:24somebody thought he was gay
27:31in the autopsy report
27:32Kelly's admissions are absolutely correct
27:35there's evidence of Fisher's body
27:37being cut with glass
27:38being stabbed with a knife
27:40being beaten with an iron bar
27:42but there's no evidence of Hector Fisher
27:45being cut into bollocks
27:47I'm not sure
27:49if I cut his bollocks
27:51I'm not sure
27:56alright, but you had his blood on your jumper
27:58what jumper was that?
28:00splatter blood
28:01red, red one
28:02red blood as well
28:03and that goes forensics
28:04everyone knows what comes out of forensics
28:06so I says fuck it
28:07and I got rid
28:08I changed out of it with the colonel
28:10the colonel?
28:11yeah?
28:12who's he Kelly?
28:14the colonel
28:15from the old days
28:16he's
28:17he's a man
28:18he's
28:19his auntie shop in Chelsea
28:20alright
28:21and what's the colonel got to do with it?
28:23the colonel's seen me
28:24and he says
28:25I says
28:26have you a jumper down there?
28:27and he says
28:28you need it badly
28:29alright, and did he know what you had done?
28:30he didn't know his blood did he?
28:32I mean it splashes the red paint on it
28:34so
28:35he brought me down
28:36and he gave me a trousers
28:37and a jumper
28:38and a shirt
28:39are you a friend of yours?
28:40he's a friend of a lot of dossers around
28:42alright
28:43and how old is the er
28:44is the colonel?
28:45well he's
28:4665
28:47maybe 70
28:48but he's
28:49but he's fresh looking
28:50he's fresh
28:51alright, but was he kind to you?
28:52or was he friendly with you?
28:53well he was
28:54friendly
28:55so I don't think
28:56he was
28:57puffs
28:58you know
28:59he never
29:00in other words
29:01I was in
29:02and I had it
29:03sitting there
29:04having a cup of tea
29:05and sandwiches
29:06but he never
29:07never suggested anything
29:08like
29:09sex like
29:10or
29:11or any
29:12you know
29:13homosexual stuff
29:14what conversation
29:15did you and the colonel have
29:16about the clothes?
29:17when he was going to get rid of them
29:19he wasn't going to fucking wear them
29:21was he?
29:22so
29:23I said
29:24I'll take these
29:25he says no
29:26he says
29:27the dust men is coming
29:28and he says
29:29I'll put them into a bag
29:30and I'll throw them out
29:31and I'm coming out
29:32then
29:33there's the dust men coming along
29:34there's something odd about that story
29:36what are you smiling for?
29:38what's it about it?
29:39you tell me what's it about it?
29:45there was something funny about the case
29:48I mean the fact that he had
29:50admitted a murder whilst he was in prison
29:53caused me
29:55some concern
29:57that is what causes me to doubt
30:00whether Kieran Kelly did actually
30:02kill Fisher
30:04there's something odd about that story isn't there?
30:06what are you smiling for?
30:07tell us
30:08tell me my son
30:18Kelly what was he?
30:19a trap who killed another tramp in a cell?
30:22what we're both after is the truth
30:24he got the truth as far as I'm concerned
30:28wasn't until you get his file out
30:30and you start to read
30:31and you think
30:32hang on a minute
30:35he
30:36he got the bombshells in
30:37alright Kelly
30:38how many people
30:39do you think
30:40you've killed all together?
30:41well put that down then
30:43what's that down there?
30:44that's eleven now
30:45he's a man
30:48he's a man
30:50Kelly's longest of murders covers thirty years
30:52most of the victims were homeless men
30:55Most of the victims were homeless men, living rough in London's nobody's zone.
31:00Some were Irish, like James.
31:04Would have vagrants in it, sleeping rough, drinking anything they could get their hands on.
31:11And they all had their own skipper, as they called it, where they slept.
31:18That's my tombstone.
31:20I sleep on that every night, and nobody dare go on it.
31:25In a world that started by alcohol addiction,
31:29The patient is Kelly.
31:31Kelly's crimes were easy to conceal and difficult to prove.
31:37You've had a chance to do this before.
31:40Where?
31:41When you was arrested on the Toll murder.
31:44Did you do Toll?
31:48He had been to the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court,
31:51Changed with murder of another tramp,
31:55A guy called Toll.
31:57Toll was sleeping on Kelly's tombstone in Kennington Church.
32:02Kelly wasn't happy about it, so
32:04He'd slid a rope from around his waist that was keeping his trousers up.
32:09It rammed Toll's neck and garrud.
32:10He walked away, and one of the other tramps said,
32:19Oh God, Kelly, I killed him.
32:22So he turned around, went back, put the rope back around his neck,
32:26And did it again.
32:26And then walked away and said,
32:31Well, I have now.
32:35But he'd gone to the Old Bailey and stood trial,
32:38But the only witnesses against him were
32:40A couple of
32:42Alcoholic tramps.
32:45And some of it was that the tramps weren't too clear about anything,
32:49And Kelly walked out free.
32:52Well, I was very full of paranoia and aggression.
33:05Not when they didn't scheme.
33:07If suddenly I'd get aggressive straight away.
33:13There was a guy called Glacken.
33:16He didn't care about my Glacken.
33:18He's from Ireland.
33:19He was a cotsie, you know, like my family.
33:22So anyway, I was on the station.
33:25And I was sitting down on the bench with my Glacken,
33:28Which was my first mistake.
33:30The next thing, he got me by the throat like that.
33:34And I realised,
33:36I had to break the lock.
33:39So I got my thumb
33:40Between the hands,
33:42And then I caught him with a hook
33:44And split him across the eye.
33:46And the sudden shock of
33:48Blow coming from nowhere.
33:50He let go.
33:51So I jumped up
33:52And the train was just about to close the doors.
33:56And I threw my train
33:57And pained my head on the floor.
34:01I was closed and the cop was come.
34:03And they grabbed my Glacken.
34:06It'd have fucking choked me if I hadn't got my th-
34:08I think that we were all a bit psychotic.
34:14But there was deep in that one.
34:17But there was deep in that one.
34:23In the early 60s,
34:24Kelly drifted in and out of the nobody's home.
34:27He'd be in a pub where they'd have music, for instance.
34:41He'd be in a pub where they'd have music, for instance.
34:42And he'd go up on the stage, pick the mic and start.
34:45And he'd go up one nine, all the way four points, and the Galway crowd getting a little bit anxious.
34:49And in the building, he'd be in a pub where they'd have music, for instance.
34:50And he'd go up on the stage, pick the mic and start.
34:51And he'd go up one nine, all the way four points, and the Galway crowd getting a little bit anxious.
34:53And in the building, he'd became...
35:04I think he'd take me through here.
35:06He could imitate...
35:08When he could comment in a football match as if he was watching it.
35:12But he had made it up.
35:13And it goes from Galway on the fullback on the mids***.
35:17When he said, he'd get...
35:18...stending it high and sending it over the bird and shoulders getting...
35:23How do you do that? I don't know, but that was his party piece.
35:28He wasn't a loner or such.
35:31He got on with other people.
35:34As I was saying, when he got kicked, people tried to avoid him.
35:37That was only a problem.
35:38It didn't take him a lot to get drunk, by the way.
35:40A couple of drinks and he was...
35:41If you said the wrong thing to him, that was it.
35:50According to Kelly's own story,
35:52it didn't take much for his irritation to turn murderous.
36:07The Correlation Buildings was,
36:10it was a derelict house that was a sleeper for Tom's.
36:15Kelly talked about a man
36:18that he'd pour whiskey down his throat
36:21and killed.
36:25But he couldn't remember who he was.
36:27But he knows he killed him.
36:31Yes, sir.
36:33I saw.
36:35Yeah?
36:36Right, now.
36:37No.
36:38I love Kelly.
36:39Yeah, well, I love Kelly.
36:45Right, who do you think that might be?
36:47I don't know who he is.
36:50Right, have you seen a...
36:51Yeah.
36:53Let's put it to you bluntly, mate.
36:54Is that the guy you killed in Coronation Building?
36:57I fucking like him, to be honest.
36:59It's like the head and all that, the hair.
37:02Right, and what are you doing?
37:04Right?
37:05Well, I don't fucking know.
37:08I can't, because I can't...
37:09I'd drink on me.
37:10I wasn't drunk.
37:11Right, you know we told you
37:13our records show that you were in prison
37:14when that one was done in Coronation Building.
37:16Well, then the cunt mustn't have died
37:18the one I...
37:19What are you saying?
37:21Well, the thing is done
37:22because I put it down his throat, right?
37:24I know what I done in that house myself.
37:27Right, well, how did you do it?
37:29What?
37:29And you said that is the guy?
37:38Yeah.
37:38Because the way you described to me
37:39that you killed him before,
37:42remember, when you got down on your knees
37:44in his office and showed me with a towel?
37:46Yeah, I had it under his chin
37:48and to his ears
37:50and I'm with my knees holding the towel
37:53and to his ears
37:54and I'm pulling and pulling and
37:57and out of a bottle
37:58and he was like
37:59bubbling
38:00back up
38:02out of a bottle.
38:04You wanted the whole bottle?
38:06No, there was
38:07there was
38:08there was some left
38:09some left in the bottle
38:09but I didn't drink it
38:11because he was bringing a vomit as well
38:13and it's just the raw whiskey like
38:15I mean, you get it down
38:17whiskey and you bring it straight
38:19straight up
38:19I didn't want to get it on me own clothes
38:23because I had a good old trousers on me
38:25Yeah, well, let me tell you
38:26let me tell you the biggest problem, Kelly
38:27everything you told us
38:28is similar to the one that happened at the
38:30conch in buildings
38:31right, but when that one happened
38:33you were in prison
38:34Oh, Jesus
38:36well, I'm telling you
38:37I'd done one there
38:38but I don't know whether he was dead or not
38:40understand me now?
38:42Kelly would know
38:43that he's a violent person
38:45and that he kills people
38:46so perhaps
38:48he knows himself
38:49to virtually every death of tramps
38:51that there is in the area
38:52He's the one in conchination building
38:55Is that the absolute curse?
38:57It's the truth, yeah
38:58In actual fact, Patsy Waters died
39:01exactly that way
39:02in coronation buildings
39:04the only thing is that Kelly
39:06was prison at the time
39:08Come on
39:09Kelly
39:09Come on
39:10Patsy Waters
39:12Come on, tell us the truth
39:13Who's that photograph?
39:15Who's that photo?
39:16That's Patsy Waters, isn't it?
39:17It's a bad photograph
39:18No, no, no, come on
39:19tell us the truth about that one
39:20because it's the fuck one
39:21Then he's just a fuck
39:22Come on, can you tell us the truth about that one?
39:24What do you want me to tell you?
39:25I want you to tell us the truth
39:26I'm telling you the fuck
39:27that you killed him
39:27Yeah
39:28You killed the fuck
39:29So do our records show
39:30that you're in prison
39:31when Patsy Waters died?
39:32But then the cunt
39:33mustn't have died
39:34the fuck that I done
39:35But, you see?
39:36You can't have a game with us
39:38I'm not
39:38Now you're laughing again
39:40I'm not laughing
39:40Look, I could meet a fella
39:42who could turn around
39:43and say I'm Patsy
39:43I think it's as simple as that
39:45Now listen
39:45You are laughing
39:46Kelly showed
39:50his animal cunning
39:51I suppose
39:52the fact that he was playing us
39:54at times
39:54and
39:55and
39:55and eventually agrees with you
39:57but he's had his five minutes
39:59to play with you
39:59No, listen
40:01you're playing a game
40:02now keep
40:02keep to the point
40:03Can I have one of them cigarettes, please?
40:05Now, keep
40:06made a cock up
40:06and now you're trying to
40:07pack it up about
40:08Patsy Waters
40:09No, I made a cock up
40:11I'm telling you
40:11and that's it
40:12Right, Kelly
40:12let's put it to your street
40:13Is this something
40:14of a red area?
40:15No
40:15Coronation
40:16I'm serious
40:17I'm serious
40:18about this
40:18I'm serious
40:20if not scrub at all
40:21Is Ciaran Kelly
40:25spinning the police story?
40:27Is he a manipulator?
40:29Is Kelly completely mad?
40:32On the other hand
40:33Is he
40:34trying to admit
40:36to crimes
40:37that he didn't commit
40:38in order to confuse
40:39the police investigation
40:41in the hope
40:42that
40:42Kels are not working
40:43on his own reliable
40:44that they can't
40:45convict him
40:46on any crime?
40:46Let me put it to you
40:47Is there any
40:48that you've been
40:50telling us
40:52in the hope
40:53that we're going to
40:54go off chasing
40:55red herrings
40:55and somehow
40:57or other
40:57you'll rig Al out
40:58of killing that man?
41:01It's up to you
41:02in the Senate
41:02when you just
41:05listen to the tape raw
41:06you hear a man
41:08who is very composed
41:09in the fullness
41:11of his mental faculties
41:12in that moment
41:13I quite like
41:22at the start
41:22where they offer him
41:22a cup of tea
41:23you know
41:23they're building rapport
41:24they're offering him
41:24a cigarette
41:25they want him
41:25to be comfortable
41:26in the hope
41:26then that
41:27he will be forthcoming
41:28with the information
41:28that they require
41:29from him
41:30Also the manipulation
41:36of the arrogance
41:37was there
41:37you don't expect it
41:39from somebody
41:40who's homeless
41:40and an alcoholic
41:41has no means
41:42they come across
41:43as a nobody
41:43but yet
41:44in that interview
41:45he's able to
41:46exert his own arrogance
41:47he's able to
41:47question the police
41:48who's in charge
41:49here
41:50kind of a cult
41:51in his own subtle
41:52wick
41:52he's directing
41:53what's going on
41:54right
42:04about Mr. Kelly
42:06he was about
42:08six foot
42:09very thin
42:10and gaunt looking
42:12he'd run up
42:14to other people
42:15and just stand
42:16in front of them
42:16and fear into them
42:18because of his crimes
42:19head games
42:21the weak
42:23will always be
42:25his target
42:26alright
42:29Mr. Brown's
42:30going to ask you
42:30now about
42:31I'm Christy Smith
42:32and go over that again
42:35yeah
42:36it's interesting
42:37Kelly
42:37that
42:37when we talk
42:39to you
42:39you're usually
42:40Christy Smith
42:41all the interviews
42:44we did
42:44always went back
42:46to 1953
42:47and Christy Smith
42:49he was his mate
42:52they came over
42:53from Ireland
42:53together
42:54and he killed him
42:56but of course
43:02we don't
43:03know anything
43:04about Christy Smith
43:05can't find any
43:07record of this
43:08and we can't find
43:09Christy Smith
43:09you broke
43:11Peter
43:11so did that
43:19that started
43:20you on the drink
43:20according to Kelly
43:22Christy and
43:24Kelly had an argument
43:25and
43:26Caracal claims
43:27to have pushed
43:27Christy Smith
43:28under a train
43:29at Baker Street
43:31Tube Station
43:32around
43:331953
43:34what happened to
43:36what happened to
43:36Kathleen
43:37he really does
43:45sound
43:46he's telling the truth
43:47with so many
43:47of these things
43:48and in fact
43:49he is telling the truth
43:50Paul Smith
43:51was Christy Smith's
43:52brother
43:52Kathleen was
43:54Christy Smith's
43:55girlfriend
43:55it's the other part
43:57of the story
43:57that isn't so true
43:59name them for me
44:00the ones that
44:01you killed
44:01Christy Smith
44:02as detective
44:04inspector
44:05if this was
44:07a lie
44:07it meant
44:08that all
44:09of Kelly's
44:09claims
44:09could be a lie
44:10you'd definitely
44:11kill Christy Smith
44:12yeah
44:12you'd definitely
44:14kill
44:15Christy Smith
44:16yeah
44:32you'd definitely
45:02We'll see you next time.
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