Vande Mataram to SIR, who won the Sansad showdown? Democratic Newsroom debates

4 hours ago

In this edition of Democratic Newsroom, the focus is on the fiery debates on Vande Mataram and the electoral reforms between the government and the Opposition in the ongoing Winter Session of Parliament.

Transcript

00:00Hello and welcome to another edition of Democratic Newsroom.

00:03I'm joined here by my colleagues in our conference room to discuss the biggest burning topic of the week.

00:10And yes, it's been what's transpired in Parliament.

00:12We've seen two very interesting and rather fiery debates,

00:16whether it was on one day matrim or on electoral reforms, or pointedly at SIR.

00:21But off the two faces, who won the battle on the two issues of narratives and much more?

00:26So, I'll open this up, joining us here in the Democratic Newsroom, as always, Rajdeep Sardisai,

00:32Sahil Joshi, who we've not had to teleport for a change.

00:34He's with us here in our studios.

00:36We've got Gaurav Sawant and Sneha Murdani for a change, who's joining us at the Democratic Newsroom.

00:41Rajdeep, can I begin with you?

00:42What did you make of the parliamentary phase?

00:44Or what did you make of the two debates, Vande Matrim and electoral reforms?

00:48You know, Akshita, if you looked at this as two battles within a war,

00:51I would say when it came to Vande Matrim, my belief is the government scored a self-goal.

00:56Because they looked at a debate, which was really being looked through the rearview mirror,

01:01which in a way was designed, it almost seemed to demonize Jawaharlal Nehru yet again.

01:07In the process, what happened?

01:09You dragged in others like Gurudev, Rabindranath, Tagore.

01:14And at a time when the country has so many contemporary pressing issues,

01:18from fires to air pollution to the Indigo crisis,

01:21to go back to what happened in 1937, I feel was scoring a clear self-goal.

01:26So on that debate, I think the government for once got its steps completely wrong.

01:31The other debate, which was just the other way around, electoral reforms,

01:35the opposition was confused.

01:37Was this debate about electoral reforms?

01:39Was it about SIR or was it about Boat Chhori?

01:42And by the end, when Amit Shah gave what I thought was a hard-hitting,

01:46very, very direct speech,

01:49the opposition really had no response and therefore walked out.

01:51So I think it was very interesting that if this was a series of debates,

01:57one, two debates, it would be one-all.

01:59I think government scored a big self-goal, in my view, on Vande Matram.

02:03They just got the timing, the issues wrong.

02:06And it also gave the opposition an opportunity to tag the government.

02:09What were you doing during the freedom struggle?

02:11What was the RSS doing?

02:12All of which I think pushed the government on the back foot.

02:15On the other hand, when it came to electoral reforms,

02:17I think the opposition was confused

02:19and was not sure what exactly were you going to try and put across

02:23to make it an issue that resonated.

02:26So one-all is the way I put it.

02:27One to the government, one to the opposition.

02:29So what I'm going to do is, I'm going to take this issue by issue, right?

02:32We'll give 10 minutes on Vande Matram, like in Parliament,

02:34and 10 minutes to electoral reforms.

02:36Gaurav, first on Vande Matram, what did you think of the debate?

02:39Do you think government scored a self-goal like Rajdeep does?

02:42So it depends whether you're looking at it as a T20 match

02:44or you're looking at it as a test series.

02:48And if you were to look at it from the government's perspective

02:51or the ideological perspective,

02:53because the government does not look at it as the headlines of the day.

02:57For them, it's more ideological.

03:00They want people of Bengal and they want this generation to know

03:04how in 1937, under pressure of Muhammad Ali Jinnah,

03:09there were people who buckled under pressure.

03:12And instead of the entire Vande Matram,

03:15you agreed only to two stanzas of Vande Matram,

03:18which led to then truncating Vande Matram.

03:21Ultimately, Jinnah was emboldened

03:23that they can't hit them.

03:25Ultimately, it led to partition of the country in 1947.

03:29And the Muslims who stayed behind,

03:31many of them don't even sing those two stanzas of Vande Matram.

03:34As the Home Minister gave out an entire list,

03:37listing out Congress Party leaders,

03:39Samajwadi Party leaders,

03:40RJD leaders till date,

03:41who refused to sing the Vande Matram.

03:44So, you know, whatever they sought to achieve in 1937,

03:47in 2025, you realize,

03:49politics of appeasement never works.

03:52When you look at it at that level,

03:53that generation may not have realized this.

03:55The effort was that this generation should realize it.

03:58Okay.

03:58Sahil, what do you think?

03:59See, in Vande Matram debate,

04:01it looked like that the government was ready with the charge sheet.

04:04You know,

04:04and in the debate on the electoral reforms,

04:07it was the opposition party was ready with the charge sheet against the government.

04:11So, exactly played, you know,

04:13completely reversal roles for the opposition and the government.

04:17As far as Vande Matram is concerned,

04:19you know,

04:19most of the people thought that there were no new ideas to speak about.

04:23Every speech was almost similar from the government side

04:26because there were no new points to it.

04:27The Vande Matram debate has been going on in this country for a very long time.

04:32And most of the issues which were discussed by the government,

04:35put by the government,

04:37even by the Prime Minister in Rajya Sabha by Amit Shah,

04:40were already known.

04:41And they were debated,

04:43they were already discussed.

04:44But it gave the opposition party,

04:46specifically,

04:47I would like to mention Priyanka Gandhi,

04:49an opportunity to come up with a completely new thing altogether.

04:53You know,

04:54her remarks about,

04:56you know,

04:56once for all,

04:57decide a day and,

04:59you know,

04:59prepare some 999 charges against Pandit Nehru

05:02and let's discuss it forever,

05:04you know.

05:04So,

05:05that kind of thing came out from the opposition party.

05:08So,

05:09it looked like that

05:10what government was hoping for,

05:12it couldn't materialize.

05:14in the Vande Matram debate.

05:15Just one line,

05:16just one line,

05:17before you pass it on.

05:19What Gaurav said about,

05:21that whether it's a test match or a T20,

05:23the T20,

05:24they definitely lost.

05:25I think you will agree to that.

05:26But about,

05:27I look at it as a much wider thing.

05:29I mean,

05:29in my own country,

05:30if I can't sing Vande Matram

05:32and somebody has a veto

05:33on singing Vande Matram,

05:35it's bizarre.

05:35Who has a veto?

05:36It's bizarre.

05:37Please,

05:38he has to knock you.

05:39No,

05:39no,

05:39one minute,

05:40sir.

05:40No,

05:40no,

05:41you have used a word,

05:41you are saying there is a veto on Vande Matram?

05:43There is a veto on Vande Matram?

05:45From whom?

05:45That only two paras will be sung.

05:48Only two paras will be sung.

05:51So whether Sankh,

05:51suddenly you have discovered Vande Matram,

05:53who has a veto?

05:54Whether Sankh sings or not is immaterial.

05:56Who has a veto?

05:57I don't care if Sankh sings or not.

05:58You have made a comment.

05:59I have made a comment

06:00that only two paras will be sung

06:02and not more will be sung.

06:04And what about leaders?

06:05Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore,

06:06no less.

06:06Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore,

06:08in his wisdom in 1937,

06:10situation,

06:10situation.

06:11So in 2025,

06:11you have to decide,

06:12why did the great Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore,

06:16the Nobel laureate,

06:18why did,

06:18in 1937,

06:20India cannot be compared to 2035.

06:22I would have liked a 10 hour debate

06:23on airline turbulence,

06:26on what's happening with the way

06:27India Galactic is going in the world.

06:27Have another 10 hour debate.

06:29Have a 20 hour debate.

06:30No, that doesn't happen.

06:31That did happen.

06:32I would have wanted a 10 hour debate

06:35on pollution.

06:35Very good.

06:36So do you feel it was unnecessary?

06:40No, it was absolutely unnecessary.

06:42Because 10 hours were set aside

06:44and nothing new was said

06:46in this entire discussion.

06:48Why weren't we discussing pollution

06:50is my question.

06:51It's not just Delhi.

06:52It's not something that is to be discussed

06:54in the Delhi Assembly.

06:56It is something that is to be discussed

06:57in the country.

06:58because in India,

06:59unlike many other countries,

07:01the effort has to be from,

07:03at all levels.

07:04It's going to be a multi-agency,

07:06a central government,

07:07a state government level effort.

07:09On the day Bandai Matram

07:11was getting discussed,

07:12the AQI of Delhi was 650 plus.

07:15And not just that.

07:17Let me tell you,

07:17it's not just Delhi.

07:18There were other cities as well

07:19who were reporting very bad air quality,

07:22particularly in the Indo-Gangetic plain,

07:24which is North India.

07:25My question is,

07:26and that struck to me as a journalist

07:27and as a citizen,

07:29why isn't pollution being given one hour?

07:32One hour?

07:32That is the pitch.

07:33That is the pitch.

07:34That is the pitch put forward

07:36by the opposition parties.

07:37That why are we discussing the issues

07:39which are some 150 years old?

07:41Because it's like WMD,

07:42weapon of mass distraction.

07:44This was a classic weapon

07:45of mass distraction

07:46at a time when the country

07:48has got urgent issues

07:49to discuss with.

07:50You're going back to the 1930s

07:51and scoring self-goals

07:52because your own track record.

07:54Who was Shama Prasad Mukherjee

07:56aligning with in 1930s?

07:58And if you want a history lesson,

08:00then both sides will put it,

08:01put their points across.

08:03But I don't think this was a moment

08:04for a history lesson in parliament

08:06when there are far more urgent issues

08:08concerning India of today.

08:09I want to fix it.

08:10Bharat in 2047.

08:12I don't want to know what happened.

08:13But Gaurav hasn't answered the question.

08:15I want to know who's veto.

08:17He has made a very serious point.

08:18So two questions.

08:20Let him answer now.

08:21He must answer it.

08:22He'll answer.

08:23Let him answer.

08:23Amit Shah has answered it.

08:24Who?

08:24Amit Shah answered it.

08:26He gave out a list of people

08:27who refused to sing

08:28Vande Mataram

08:29and because of which

08:30it is only two paras

08:31are also sung.

08:32All those details

08:32are out in public domain.

08:33Two paras and saying

08:34Vande Mataram

08:34are two different issues.

08:35It's completely different issues.

08:37Several times in the past

08:38we've had ruling party MPs.

08:40All of you want to speak

08:41and not let me speak?

08:42It's fine.

08:42Let him finish.

08:43He's not answered my question.

08:45Who is giving a veto?

08:46He'll answer it.

08:47Go ahead.

08:48Are you stopped

08:48from singing Vande Mataram?

08:49Let him finish.

08:50Like the home minister

08:51told Rahul Gandhi

08:52you will not decide

08:53what I will speak

08:54and when I will speak.

08:57Okay Gaurav now go ahead.

08:58I will decide.

09:01As speaker Birla

09:02I will now say

09:03Gaurav gets the flow.

09:04If you go by Mr. Birla

09:07then you will be biased against us.

09:08No no Rajdeep come on.

09:09Okay go ahead.

09:10So your suggestion

09:11you're one side then.

09:12No no go ahead.

09:12Go ahead.

09:13That's a fact

09:14but be that as it may

09:16the fact of the matter remains

09:18there a tree to become

09:20tall and strong

09:21has to have strong roots

09:23and you have to know

09:24what the civilization here

09:27is all about.

09:29Okay if you can't even say

09:30Vande Mataram

09:31in this country

09:32That's wrong.

09:33If you can't even

09:33That's wrong.

09:34Yes you can't.

09:35No it's wrong.

09:37Please let him finish.

09:38No but at least

09:38we should not

09:39we should not have

09:40the facts wrong.

09:41So Vande Mataram

09:41We have been singing

09:42Vande Mataram in our school.

09:44We have been singing

09:46Vande Mataram in our school.

09:46Just clarify on that.

09:49Beyond two paragraphs.

09:51Beyond two stanzas.

09:52That is Rashtragarh.

09:53Beyond two stanzas.

09:53Let him clarify now.

09:55Clarify on what?

09:56Beyond two stanzas.

09:58How many of you know

09:59that Vande Mataram

10:00beyond those two stanzas?

10:01How many of you know

10:02in parliament

10:03know the full song?

10:04That is not my point.

10:05I'm challenging half of them.

10:05That is and I'm not

10:06blaming you for this.

10:07I'm not blaming anybody

10:08for not knowing

10:09beyond those two stanzas

10:10because we were only

10:11taught those two stanzas.

10:13The effort

10:13I believe

10:15is so that

10:17future generations

10:17know that

10:18policy of appeasement

10:20never works.

10:21You should not

10:22have a policy of

10:23Why not make a public

10:23speech about it?

10:24Why not make a public

10:25speech about it?

10:26I'm just asking you

10:31is that the most

10:32pressing issue of the

10:33day for the parliament

10:34to dedicate 10 hours

10:35to discuss it?

10:37Parliament does not

10:38function only one day

10:39all the walkouts

10:40all that everything

10:41else is happening

10:42instead of walking

10:43out come sit

10:44wait discuss all

10:45the other issues

10:46also you know

10:47this is exactly

10:48like the same

10:49argument why do

10:50you want a

10:50ram mandir at

10:51Ayodhya you can

10:51have a hospital

10:52there you can

10:53have a school

10:54there you can

10:55have this there

10:55it is not

10:58an either or

10:59now that you

11:00have a

11:00ram mandir

11:02in Ayodhya

11:02and land

11:03has been given

11:04elsewhere

11:04for construction

11:05of other

11:06structures

11:06boss

11:07you have

11:19other hours

11:20you discuss

11:21every other issue

11:21under the sun

11:22you have used

11:23the word

11:24appeasement

11:24in the context

11:25of vande matram

11:25my point is

11:26in the 1930s

11:27you can turn

11:28hindu mahasabha

11:29was aligning

11:30with muslim league

11:31to form governments

11:32is that appeasement

11:32lk adwani goes

11:34to pakistan

11:34and makes a

11:35statement in

11:36praise of jinnah

11:37is that appeasement

11:38just one thing

11:38no no no no no no no no no no

11:40truth to our

11:42fact is how far back in

11:42time do you

11:43i maintain

11:44i want to see

11:45a better india

11:46for my children

11:46that better india

11:48is not going to be

11:49built by having

11:49a 10 hour debate

11:50why vande matram

11:51has two stanzas

11:52and not more

11:52according to

11:53Better India will also not be built.

11:55That is why I cannot even follow my own vision.

11:57A weapon of mass distraction because it also exposed,

12:00and that's why I think the self-goal was caught,

12:02it also exposed where was the RSS during 1930s,

12:05where was it during Quit India movement.

12:07You see, history is a very contentious issue.

12:09I don't think that is the issue of our times.

12:12The issue of our times is to look at the present and the future

12:15by looking at...

12:16Unless you have a strong past,

12:18unless there is reconciliation from the past,

12:20you cannot have a strong future.

12:21What is the reconciliation by having a debate?

12:23We all respect our national song.

12:27Okay, what is the outcome of the debate?

12:28What is the outcome of the debate?

12:30What is the outcome?

12:32Everyone is asking questions of the government right now.

12:36Have the government come to the conclusion

12:40and the parliament come to the conclusion

12:41now that the whole song needs to be taught in the school?

12:44Have they come to the conclusion of that?

12:46What is the outcome of the whole debate?

12:48You passed the question, you have to answer now.

12:49Are you now pre-empting a debate has happened?

12:52Debate has happened.

12:54Now, let's see what the next action is.

12:56You know, again, like I say,

12:57there are some people who move by 24-hour news cycle.

12:59Was it a discussion or a debate?

13:01A 24-hour news cycle.

13:03And there are some who move on a much wider scale.

13:05And this is what...

13:07This is what is something that...

13:08No, I'll tell you the difference.

13:10He's moving in millennium.

13:12Civilization.

13:12No, no, one minute.

13:13One minute.

13:14One minute.

13:14I have...

13:15Yes.

13:15And why not?

13:16Worry about today and we believe.

13:18We are the only civilization that continues to flourish

13:21the world's oldest flourishing civilization.

13:25I just have one thing to say.

13:27In SIR, in the debate on the electoral reforms,

13:29the opposition came up with specific demands.

13:32Okay?

13:33This is what we want to change in the electoral system.

13:35Excellent.

13:35What happened in the Vande Matram debate?

13:37What did the government decide?

13:39What was the opposite of the idea that this is what is to be happened?

13:41Let him answer now.

13:42What was the biggest takeaway from the Vande Matram debate, Gaurav?

13:45That this generation also knows what India has been through.

13:48That they have been talking about it since long time.

13:50Very good.

13:51Future generations will also get to know.

13:52Okay.

13:52Why this apprehension?

13:54That you don't know what happened in the Vande Matram debate.

13:56Who said it?

13:57You don't know what it means.

13:59It doesn't mean what it means.

14:00It doesn't mean what it means.

14:01Okay.

14:02I completely agree.

14:04It is just future generations will also get to know.

14:14Okay.

14:14And as far as you are saying, you know, where was RSS?

14:16Where was so and so?

14:17It is for them to decide where they were.

14:20If you look at...

14:21Okay.

14:21I will resort to more tactics.

14:23I will resort.

14:24If you look at electoral results, they seem to be doing much better.

14:27Of course they are.

14:28Of course.

14:28That also answers...

14:29Now I am going to resort to speaker tactics and start muting now.

14:33Sorry.

14:34Mananiya Sadasigal.

14:35Sorry.

14:35We will start next with the electoral reforms.

14:37Yes.

14:38You have already...

14:38Rajdeep, what did you make of that debate?

14:40You had Rahul Gandhi speak.

14:41You had Amit Shah speak.

14:43You know, I think...

14:44I am very clear.

14:45The opposition there got it horribly wrong.

14:47They actually wanted to raise the issue of SIR.

14:50Then they wanted...

14:51A section wanted to raise the issue of vote jury.

14:54But government cleverly framed the debate or the opposition agreed to electoral reforms debate.

14:59Once you agree to electoral reforms debate, then you open the window for, in a way, the

15:05way the opposition approached it was by sending mixed signals.

15:09They were not clear what they wanted to say on these issues.

15:12Once Amit Shah took the floor, and I believe, forget about a slightly unparliamentary word

15:17that he used in between, it almost made me feel, yeah, that's also okay to say a few

15:22words in parliament.

15:23Barring that, I thought it was a speech that hit the opposition where it hurt.

15:27Because it then went into specific issues.

15:30And I think there, I think the government scored.

15:33And the opposition was completely confused.

15:36Just as the opposition was able to expose the government's agenda on Vande Matram, I believe

15:42the government was able to expose the opposition on its failure to come up with clarity on

15:47electoral reform.

15:47I had a debate yesterday on electoral reform with, you know, former chief election commissioners

15:53and some people who worked on it.

15:54And there is key issues.

15:55Money power.

15:56How are you going to reduce the use of money power in election?

15:59Why not look at proportional representation?

16:01Real solid ideas.

16:02None of which I saw in that debate in parliament.

16:04In parliament debate, it was almost, you know, when we don't win, there is something wrong

16:09with the system.

16:10When we win, all is okay.

16:12And I think...

16:12So you're not convinced by the vote chori that Rahul Gandhi kept speaking of?

16:15No, I have not been convinced unless I get much stronger, hard evidence to suggest that

16:22this is being done on scale.

16:23Obviously, there are irregularities at some level in our electoral rolls that need to be

16:27cleaned up.

16:27But I do believe that the SIR exercise is taking place with undue haste.

16:31There should be an exercise, but you cannot have it at the cost of BLOs being so stressed

16:36out.

16:36These are legitimate issues.

16:38But the opposition failed to provide a cohesive argument and thereby gave Amit Shah the chance

16:44to grandstand and make a strong political statement.

16:47So from that point of view, I do believe we need a much more focused debate on how do we

16:54make our politics cleaner and ensure a level playing field.

16:58I didn't see that in the debate from the opposition.

17:01Their charge sheet didn't quite work for me on electoral reform.

17:04But I guess to begin with, the opposition was successful in forcing a debate on electoral

17:09reforms, if not specifically and pointedly on SIR.

17:11But I think that's where they kind of were able to build a narrative.

17:14But what's the point if you don't ask the right questions?

17:16What's the point?

17:16Plus, you don't ask the right questions.

17:18There was no consistency between the opposition parties in terms of their arguments.

17:22There was no specific pointed demand like there was in the case of 2G, for example,

17:27where in the opposition at that point in time in BJP, it forced the government and parliament

17:31to set up a joint parliamentary committee.

17:33So no outcome.

17:34Plus, the walkout defeats the purpose.

17:36If you walkout, then you give the narrative that you have nothing to say.

17:39Yes, and then give this to the government on the platter.

17:43Just like the way the government gave this, the Congress, in fact, was able to give the

17:48Vande Matram issue on the platter, ask questions of the government on Vande Matram.

17:52The opposite happened in the case of…

17:53Flipped, essentially.

17:54Yeah, got it.

17:55Okay, so I think Amit Shah didn't say anything new.

17:57He said everything in the run-up to Bihar elections.

18:00We didn't need this debate.

18:01No, of course we needed the debate.

18:03As far as we journalists are concerned, it's a great time for all of us, you know, to listen

18:08to every side of that big, big story.

18:10But yes, when was the last electoral SIR process carried out in this country?

18:16Before 2025.

18:18So why is it that SIR was not needed and why is there undue haste?

18:21When was it done last time, Rajiv?

18:2220-year argument in…

18:23Yeah, yeah, but the last time it was done over an extended period.

18:26So, if it hasn't happened…

18:27Just to clarify, my problem with SIR is not the exercise, it's the haste and the deadline.

18:33And the timing.

18:34And now the EC is caught in a pint because every week they seem to be extending the deadline.

18:38They've extended it now by over.

18:39Yes, even today it is extended.

18:40This man is the exercise person.

18:41Okay, now let Gaurav finish.

18:43It sounded like…

18:44I love this interruption because this is what shows how…

18:47You know…

18:47How democratic.

18:48No, even if it's three against one, it's perfectly fine.

18:52I love it.

18:53He has praised the government.

18:54I love it.

18:55You don't have to create a fight now.

18:57No, no.

18:57I love this.

18:58You don't have to create a fight.

18:59Go ahead.

18:59So, SIR process in the past, as Amit Shah pointed out, 1951, 52, 57, you know, 1960s.

19:08It is regularly happening.

19:09If it's happening after 20 years, now electoral rolls have to be reformed, right?

19:14That's exactly the purification of electoral rolls is happening.

19:17There was so much brouhaha about it.

19:19Why?

19:19It was uncalled for.

19:21So, opposition just looks at something, hopes it will grab something and something will stick.

19:25Where is that coherent strategy for them to take it to its logical conclusion?

19:30And in the middle of the battle, when the commander abandons the battle and goes, in the middle of the battle,

19:36what does it say about, you know, the future of that battle?

19:39Well, I…

19:39You know…

19:40Okay.

19:40No, go on, sir.

19:42Okay.

19:43So, you know, I thought very interestingly, the way it happened during Vande Matram debate,

19:49that the opposition got a chance to talk their points out.

19:51Similarly, in this debate, the government got a chance to raise this Ghospatya issue again.

19:56You know?

19:57And it's a very serious issue, Ghospatya.

19:59I mean, you can't have foreigners who will decide who your chief minister, prime minister is.

20:02Could you please tell us, could the election commissioner please tell us how many Ghospatyas

20:06have been found in SIR in Bihar so far?

20:09They don't even tell us.

20:10It's very easy to say Ghospatya could.

20:12I want numbers.

20:13I would have rather had a debate, actually, which the election commissioner Gyanesh Kumar was involved in.

20:18He's the one who has to answer the question.

20:19But he can't…

20:20But that's exactly…

20:20The government said that also.

20:21The government constantly made Gyanesh Kumar cannot come in parliament.

20:24He's not…

20:24I agree.

20:25That's why he has said that.

20:26I agree.

20:26I actually have said that also.

20:27That is not a parliament debate.

20:28But yeah.

20:29I agree to Governor Sagan's point.

20:30And of course, the government is right or the election commission is right that the

20:33foreigners cannot vote in India.

20:34That's absolutely correct.

20:36But also, we have to see that how many Ghospatyas the government has been able to catch in

20:42the last 11 years till now, even in the election process, even in the SIR, even in the normal

20:47drives the election commission does every year, twice a year, actually.

20:54That has not happened yet.

20:55But anyway, the government got a political stand in this, the whole debate.

20:59And the way Amit Shah answered point by point, the point by point rebuttal of the opposition

21:05charges, every point has been answered back by Amit Shah in this.

21:10Very interestingly, the charges put forward by the opposition parties and the demand made

21:16by the opposition parties gave a chance to the government to show that, you know, they

21:20are sore losers, you know.

21:22That statistics was really interesting.

21:23And Amit Shah said that, you know, in the last 10 years, these many elections you won,

21:27these many elections we won.

21:29So the elections you won happened with the same election process.

21:32And the election we won also happened in the same election process.

21:36So when you win, you say all is fine.

21:39When you don't win, then you suddenly start making those rights.

21:40No, but what went wrong, Rajdeep, what went wrong in the opposition strategy that, look,

21:44they wanted this debate and yet they were horribly underprepared for it.

21:48Because, you see, there is a lack of clarity as to exactly what you, what was the message

21:55you were trying to send out.

21:56A few years ago, you were saying there was something wrong with EVMs.

21:59Then you moved from EVMs to electoral rolls.

22:01Now you moved to SIR, you're constantly changing the goalposts.

22:03No, but Rahul Gandhi is clear.

22:04He's held press conference after press conference.

22:06No, no, but Rahul, you see, I thought one very strong point Amit Shah made yesterday.

22:10All very well to hold press conference.

22:12If you feel so strongly, have you gone in the last 10 years, even once to the election commission

22:16or to the courts on, specifically on electoral reforms?

22:19Now, I think that's really, that's why I said the real battle to be fought is at the election commission.

22:24I do have a problem with the opacity and the lack of transparency of this election commission,

22:29of its failure to take all stakeholders into account before you conduct a major exercise

22:33like SIR.

22:35That aside, I think when you are going, if there was a clear plan that these are the 10 things

22:41I want as electoral reforms, Rahul Gandhi cited two or three, CCTV, the immunity that's been

22:47granted to election commissioners, the way in which election commissioners are chosen,

22:52all of which the government can easily turn back on you because it's not as if...

22:55No, but you responded to those.

22:56You see, because, you see, because it's very simple.

22:58Today, today you are telling me that a three member commission is heavily weighted in favor

23:03of the government when it comes to choosing election commissioners.

23:05What was it when you were in power?

23:07You see, immediately what about three comes in.

23:09So the Congress has to deal with those questions and I don't think they were prepared or in

23:13a way they gave the government an opportunity to say, you are no one to tell us of how the

23:18election commissioners should be appointed.

23:19We can turn it back on you.

23:21Just like on Vande Matram.

23:23Every time Vande Matram was said, the opposition had an opportunity, you please don't tell us

23:27about Vande Matram.

23:28Where were you during the 1930s?

23:29Very interesting.

23:30That's how it happened.

23:30Very interesting.

23:31So I think a serious debate on electoral reforms is needed in this country.

23:34It sounded...

23:35But a serious focus debate outside of this bipartisan politics of this country.

23:39This is outside our discussion on vote chori.

23:41You know, this constant use of vote chori targeting the government.

23:44It should have been very more...

23:45It should have been more pointed.

23:46More focused.

23:47Focused.

23:48You know, on what are the congressional measures, for example, for genuine voters who are aggrieved.

23:54You should be...

23:55You should vote as a representative.

23:56You should be advisers.

23:57And I don't even...

23:58And for once, I agree.

23:59You know, I don't even like this word vote chori at times.

24:01Because if I'm a genuine voter who's standing in a line from 6am or 7am waiting to vote

24:06in some part of the country, then you come and say vote chori.

24:09I think the opposition needed to frame the debate.

24:14I think the whole debate was planned because the leadership of all the opposition parties

24:41could tell their workers that why we are losing.

24:43You know, they wanted to put blame on something.

24:45Mainly the Congress.

24:47Because there is a lot of ask from the workers of the party that why are we losing?

24:53You know, where it is everything going...

24:54The Home Minister also listed why they were losing.

24:57He gave no message.

24:58That's a different debate.

24:59That's a different debate.

25:00But they couldn't prove that they are losing only and only because of this.

25:05You know, the vote chori is an inference from...

25:08There are mistakes in the voters list.

25:10India has 90 crore voters, you know.

25:12That list cannot be perfect.

25:14That's very clear.

25:15And it's a responsibility of the election commission to have a correct voter list.

25:17That is also very clear.

25:19But at the same time, that is not the reason why they are losing.

25:21That is the point.

25:22If at may, Rahul Gandhi had this huge, you know, yatra in Bihar.

25:30Even RJD walked away from it.

25:32It wasn't an RJD issue at all.

25:34Point one, point two.

25:35In all of this, you know, who won both rounds?

25:38India as a democracy.

25:40Free, fair for the whole world to see.

25:43Everyone loved it.

25:44Don't make it philosophical.

25:45It's everyone's side.

25:47Last one minute.

25:48These VDEM chaps who say India is like an elected autocracy.

25:51It's a slap on their face.

25:53Rajdeep, last one minute.

25:55So go ahead.

25:55I'm going to get ratings from everyone on what they thought of the whole debate.

25:58Look, I, you know, I am a great believer in India's parliamentary democracy and I always appreciate any kind of debate that takes place on the floor of the house.

26:07But let's not run ahead of ourselves and suggest that just because these two debates were held, that means parliamentary democracy is back to being its robust self.

26:15I think there are, I think the glass is half full and the glass is half empty as is often the case with much in India.

26:22We need to strengthen our institutions in democracy.

26:25I don't see enough call attention motions.

26:27For example, when I used to cover parliament, regularly call attention motions on serious immediate issues of concern, like air pollution will take place.

26:36Now those issues don't take place.

26:37So let's not suddenly give parliament 10 out of 10 because two debates, one which I thought was completely irrelevant and the other because the opposition got its framing of the debate wrong.