- 2 days ago
The top focus of this episode of To The Point is the fiery confrontation in Parliament between Union Home Minister Amit Shah and Leader of Opposition Rahul Gandhi over the Special Intensive Revision (SIR) of electoral rolls.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary. We come to you not very far off from Parliament.
00:06We're just a short while back. The winter session in Parliament is winding down with fireworks.
00:12What was witnessed today was a face-off between the Home Minister of the country, Amit Shah, as well as the Leader of Opposition, Rahul Gandhi,
00:21all over the contentious issue of SIR. It played out in Lok Sabha. You had the Home Minister, Amit Shah, today, who spoke on electoral reforms.
00:34The core issue was, of course, the special intensive role revision and this intense face-off between both Amit Shah and Rahul Gandhi,
00:44adding high drama to the Lok Sabha proceedings. The clash erupted when the House was debating electoral reforms.
00:50Gandhi interrupted Shah's speech to challenge him to debate on alleged vote theft raised during recent press conferences.
00:58As Shah continued speaking, Gandhi pressed him to address those allegations directly.
01:05Amit Shah then shot back, saying Rahul Gandhi could not dictate the content or order of his speech.
01:12He has to learn to be patient. I will decide what to speak and in what order, the Home Minister said.
01:20Amit Shah went on to accuse the opposition of attempting to protect infiltrators,
01:28prompting the entire opposition then to stage a walkout from the House.
01:32The meeting was said.
01:34The only throw that will be the one who is saying, this is the one that I will tell you.
01:38Who are saying the one who are saying, I should tell you.
01:41Our local people are like what the people here who steal the one who steal the one.
01:46Come and say, come and say.
01:48Come and speak, you say, tell me.
01:49Yes, you say, tell me.
01:52Speaker Sir, my time, a question yesterday,
01:55which has been in India in the first time
01:59the decision on the first time
02:02that election commissioners
02:06full immunity will give you
02:11okay
02:11this is the job
02:13this is the job
02:15I have not done it
02:16it's the job
02:17it's the job
02:18the thinking was the first time
02:21the other thing
02:22no
02:22in Haryanaa, where they have talked about one thing,
02:27there are many things that have given you.
02:32That was also you gave.
02:34That was you gave.
02:36That was you gave.
02:37That was you gave.
02:39That was you gave.
02:40That's why you gave.
02:41And tell us this too.
02:43Actually, let us have a debate on my press conference.
02:47Let us go.
02:48Let us have a very good idea.
02:50Let us have a debate on my press conferences.
02:53Am Achyaji, I challenge you.
02:55I challenge you to have a debate on the three press conferences.
02:59Please.
03:00Please.
03:01Please.
03:02Please.
03:03Please.
03:04Please.
03:05Please.
03:06Please.
03:07Please.
03:12People like me.
03:13foreign
03:20foreign
03:27foreign
03:32foreign
03:37foreign
03:42Vipakske Neta Mohdai says that you want to listen to me first.
03:48There will not be a chance from your mind.
03:50I will do the same thing I will do.
03:54It will not be a chance from this.
03:57I should say that you need to keep your mind.
04:03You need to keep my answer.
04:06I will give them one-one answer.
04:09But I am not able to do my mind.
04:13I will do it.
04:14Because I am saying that I am saying.
04:16Today I am saying that I am saying that I am saying that I am saying that I am saying that.
04:31I am saying that I am saying that I was wrong.
04:35They are saying this.
04:36You said to me when I'm talking about this,
04:41why are you still struggling with this?
04:42You're still struggling with this situation for 2-2 minutes.
04:47Do you still have a problem?
04:49No.
04:50I'll give you a moment to you.
04:52I'll give you a moment.
04:54Say it again.
04:56Say it again.
05:00Yes.
05:01Say it again.
05:03Yeah, you have seen Amitra Ji's response,
05:06then it's a completely defensive response.
05:10This is a bad response.
05:15This is a bad response.
05:18Please, please.
05:20No.
05:21No.
05:22No.
05:23No.
05:24No.
05:25No.
05:26No.
05:27No.
05:28No.
05:29No.
05:30No.
05:31No.
05:32No.
05:33No.
05:34No.
05:35No.
05:36No.
05:37No.
05:38No.
05:39No.
05:40No.
05:41No.
05:42All right.
05:43A heated face-off where the winter session comes into question.
05:47It is winding down.
05:48Just a few days left for the winter session to come to a close.
05:52It was a short winter session, but it's going down, viewers, with fireworks.
05:56This was inside the parliament, right outside.
05:59Rahul Gandhi was questioned on interrupting the Home Minister's speech.
06:03So was Priyanka Gandhi.
06:04Listen in.
06:06No.
06:07No.
06:08No.
06:09No.
06:10No.
06:11No.
06:12No.
06:13No.
06:14No.
06:15No.
06:16No.
06:17No.
06:18No.
06:19No.
06:20No.
06:21No.
06:22No.
06:23No.
06:24No.
06:25No.
06:26No.
06:27No.
06:28No.
06:29No.
06:30No.
06:31No.
06:32No.
06:33No.
06:34No.
06:35No.
06:36No.
06:37No.
06:38No.
06:39No.
06:40No.
06:41No.
06:42No.
06:43No.
06:44No.
06:45No.
06:46No.
06:47No.
06:48No.
06:49No.
06:50No.
06:51No.
06:52Can you tell us how long it is?
07:22I want to bring in my colleague Rahul Gautam, who covers the parliament very closely, joining us.
07:27Rahul, what initially started off with a tepid winter session,
07:31the last few days has seen speeches after speeches and fireworks today
07:35between the leader of opposition and Amit Shah.
07:39Well, Sreeti, what we thought today,
07:41the screenplay for the same was written yesterday and only 14th prime agent.
07:46A, Amit Shah was present in Lok Sabha and Rahul Gandhi,
07:49and B, at that point of time also, the opposition camp accused the chair of being biased towards Rahul Gandhi.
08:00And that's why you saw today Amit Shah coming out, launching a full frontal attack on opposition camp.
08:07However, Congress members, including Rahul Gandhi,
08:10they are saying that there was not much to offer in terms of the questions that were raised by Rahul Gandhi,
08:17particularly, you know, seeking machine-readable roles,
08:20you know, seeking access to the electronic voting machines,
08:23asking why immunity has been given to, you know, chief election commissioners.
08:27Now, these are the questions that Congress believe were pertinent questions
08:30that needs to be asked by the Treasury mentioned.
08:33But they believe that, you know, that was absolutely missing from Amit Shah's speech.
08:38And also, they are accusing the chair, Lok Sabha speaker, Mr. Om Birla,
08:42of being biased towards Rahul Gandhi, saying that he was not allowed to intervene,
08:47he was not allowed to speak when Amit Shah and other members were speaking.
08:50So, clearly, it seems that, as you pointed out,
08:53it seems that we are heading, as we're heading towards the end of the question,
08:57it's only getting more, you know, more fiery, more stormy.
09:00You're right there, Rahul, because the opposition has staged a walkout
09:06where the Treasury benches is concerned after that.
09:09But let's just go back once again, listening to what transpired,
09:13like I said, we was two days before the Parliament winter session comes to a close.
09:18Listen in.
09:30Listen in.
10:00Listen in.
10:02this is the thinking that we have to tell first.
10:06The second thing is that Haryana,
10:10they have taken one direction,
10:13there is a number of direction.
10:17That is your opinion.
10:20That is your opinion.
10:24That is your opinion.
10:26And let us have a debate on my press conference.
10:31Let us go.
10:33Let us have a very good idea.
10:35Let us have a debate on my press conferences.
10:38Amitsha ji, I challenge you to have a debate on the three press conferences.
10:43Please.
10:45Please.
10:47Please.
10:49Please.
10:51Please.
10:53Please.
10:54Please.
10:55Please.
10:56Please.
10:57Please.
10:58Please.
10:59Please.
11:00Please.
11:01Please.
11:02Please.
11:03Please.
11:04Please.
11:05Please.
11:06Please.
11:07Please.
11:08Please.
11:09Please.
11:10Please.
11:11Please.
11:12Please.
11:13Please.
11:14Please.
11:15Please.
11:16Please.
11:17Please.
11:18Please.
11:19Please.
11:20Please.
11:21Please.
11:22Please.
11:23Please.
11:24Please.
11:25Please.
11:26Please.
11:27Please.
11:28Please.
11:29Please.
11:30Please.
11:31Please.
11:32Please.
11:33Please.
11:34Please.
11:35Please.
11:36Please.
11:37Please.
11:38Please.
11:39Please.
11:40Please.
11:41Please.
11:42Please.
11:43Please.
11:44Please.
11:45Please.
11:46Please.
11:47Please.
11:48Please.
11:49Please.
11:50Please.
11:51Please.
11:52Please.
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11:59Please.
12:00Please.
12:01Please.
12:02Please.
12:03Please.
12:04Please.
12:05Please.
12:06Please.
12:07Please.
12:08Please.
12:09Please.
12:10So
12:14the
12:17the
12:18reason
12:20the
12:22reason
12:24the
12:26reason
12:28is
12:30not
12:32the
12:34reason
12:36All right, so this was the time when the opposition staged a walkout with saying that the speaker
13:00was partial, where Amit Shah and the Treasury benches were concerned.
13:04All right, with that, a lot has gone on in Parliament over the course of the last one week
13:09with what went down today, speaking of vote choice, speaking of SIR, of electoral reforms debate
13:15and also whether or not a privilege motion will be moved against her and does she care?
13:22Renuka Choudhury, Rajya Sabha MP, Congress, in conversation with me.
13:26Ms. Renuka Choudhury, welcome to India today.
13:35Thank you for taking the time out.
13:37It's a busy winter session where Parliament is concerned.
13:40As we speak, there are heated debates going on where Parliament comes into question.
13:45But to reflect, Ms. Choudhury, I'm somebody who's been multiple times a Rajya Sabha MP.
13:52You are currently a senior Rajya Sabha MP.
13:54I was also Lok Sabha.
13:55You were also twice Lok Sabha.
13:56You've also been the Women and Child Development Minister.
13:59You've also been very often in the crosshairs of the Treasury benches where the Parliament is concerned.
14:07And we are coming off and meeting you at a time where, I don't know if it's happening, you tell me.
14:13Is there going to be a privilege motion moved against you for calling the MPs in Parliament what you referred to as dogs?
14:24I didn't.
14:25You didn't refer to them?
14:26No, I didn't call any MP a dog.
14:27It would be very insulting to the dogs.
14:30All right?
14:31Because there are traits and qualities in a dog that human beings don't have.
14:35We don't have that kind of loyalty, that non-judgment, the kind of unconditional love and devotion that a dog gives.
14:44So I don't think human beings are fit to be called dogs.
14:48The dogs would be very humiliated.
14:50So I didn't call anyone a dog.
14:53But if it fits, the coat fits someone and they want to wear it, I can't object, can I?
15:00You mean you're costing self.
15:02But I'll go back to what really happened.
15:05There have been multiple instances.
15:06Like I said, you find yourself very often in the crosshairs of the Treasury benches.
15:09It's not the first time.
15:10But let's talk about this time with what happened.
15:13What made you?
15:14Because, you know, get a stray dog in your car to Parliament.
15:18What really happened?
15:19I was on the road heading to Parliament and opposite Claridge is that long part of the island, not the main island.
15:30A scooterist came in and he turned right abruptly.
15:34We didn't hit him.
15:36But another car, I think it was one of those smaller cars that went and hit him.
15:43The dog?
15:44No.
15:44The scooterist.
15:45The scooterist.
15:46He just abruptly hit him.
15:47We narrowly missed him.
15:49So my driver's reflex pulled up to the left and stopped because it crashed.
15:56The car and the scooter crashed.
15:57Luckily, that chap had a helmet.
15:59He fell down and the car guy got out.
16:02It was quite a loud bang.
16:03And as good old Indians, 10 scooters, 30 cars, everybody stops and there's a huge ruckus and there's this little creature, tiny thing with its tail tucked, caught in all that and running around.
16:20You could see her visibly shivering and trying to negotiate the crowds and terrified out of its mind.
16:28So I did what I thought any decent human being should do.
16:34I said, please pick it up before it goes under the tire or it gets killed.
16:41And then we looked around.
16:43No one came to claim.
16:44So I said, put it in the car.
16:45I'm getting late for parliament.
16:46Drop me at the house and come back.
16:50Bring the dog back to the house and we'll wait.
16:53And we'll tell people.
16:55And if somebody comes to claim the dog, well, then go back.
16:57So, Ms. Chaudhary, you don't think this was a political stunt?
17:00Because many people are reading it.
17:01It's something that Renuka Chaudhary does very often.
17:03She's a clickbait MP in parliament.
17:06All right.
17:07And this is a political stunt once again to, you know, take a potshot at the government.
17:13Saving a dog?
17:14It would save the government's image.
17:16You did it out of...
17:17If really that was the government's image, they desperately need a makeover.
17:22So if my bringing a dog to parliament elevated their status, they should be very lucky.
17:29So you did it to the goodness of your heart.
17:31You had no other malice intended.
17:33I'm a dog lover.
17:34Everyone knows that.
17:35I'm an animal lover.
17:36We have geese.
17:37We have chicken.
17:40We have dogs.
17:42We have cats.
17:43My daughter rescues them perennially.
17:46And our home is home to all of them.
17:49We also rescue human beings.
17:51Okay, so you bring the dog to parliament, Ms. Chaudhary, but then you go ahead and say
17:57that it's better than the dog's inside.
18:00No.
18:00I said ones who actually bite and sting are inside the house.
18:07And you also use the...
18:08This dog doesn't bite.
18:08You also use the term government.
18:11No, I said sarkar chalate hain.
18:13So you intended on clearly the treasury benches, not your family.
18:17Though there are lots of people who chal out the sarkar and like I said, the coat fits
18:23well.
18:24You don't regret it?
18:26What you said?
18:27In hindsight, because sometimes you say things which could be misconstrued.
18:29No, no, I don't regret it because it is a fact that the government bites citizens.
18:35Look at the mess in the airports today.
18:38Today is what?
18:39The third or fifth day of Indigo mess.
18:41Hundreds, lakhs of passengers are held to ransom.
18:45The government makes a statement saying that we are going to keep the prices capped after
18:50the damage is done.
18:52Nothing like that is happening.
18:54You look at the government, the kind of laws they bring in.
18:57Look at the electoral mess that they have made in the vote-tory issue.
19:02So you don't think they are the people who are biting and stinging the citizen?
19:07I mean, there's a literal and a metamorphical way of talking.
19:10All right.
19:11So you have zero regrets.
19:12No, I have no regrets.
19:13I think it was just an off-the-cuff witty remark.
19:16If they have no sense of humor, they don't.
19:19They have a strong sense of rumor.
19:21That's the problem.
19:22What's the status on a privileged motion that possibly is going to be moved against you?
19:26They're waiting and waiting and waiting and nothing's happening.
19:29Nothing's happened yet, but you're waiting.
19:31Do you think it's going to happen this winter session?
19:32Or they've got enough on their plate?
19:35Frankly, it's not a priority in my life.
19:38If they move for privilege, so be it.
19:40If they don't move for privilege, it's the dawning of wisdom for them.
19:44So.
19:45All right.
19:45But it didn't stop there, Ms. Chaudhary.
19:47Because again, I'm going back to the recent sequence of events.
19:50And there is a chronology to it, a word that you use very often sometimes in your tweets.
19:55So chronology, they care.
19:56What happens is you begin with the fact that you get a dog to parliament, which, as per the
20:03Supreme Court guidelines, you're not supposed to do, even if it's a sterilized dog, in public
20:08spaces, in the recent guidelines which have come in.
20:10And then, when you're asked that there could be a privilege motion that would be moved against
20:17you, your response, many would thought very amusing.
20:20We thought it was funny.
20:21But clearly, there's somebody that didn't think it funny where you responded with a bow
20:26wow.
20:28What do you see?
20:30I mean, is this the issue that you'd move for privilege on?
20:34I mean, is this even an issue to start with?
20:37I mean, we are reeling under pollution.
20:39The Supreme Court's not taking cognizance of that.
20:43What has the Supreme Court said about that?
20:44The lakhs and millions of children with lung issues, senior citizens dying, youth who are
20:51being affected because they are the wage earners for this country.
20:54They contribute towards the GDP here.
20:58None of that is relevant.
21:00I rescue a dog.
21:03And Supreme Court never said that I can't rescue a dog as a citizen.
21:06It is not there.
21:08And sometimes the Supreme Court, with due respect to the court, there is a constitutional obligation
21:16where we look after our animals.
21:18And so sweeping judgments or orders saying, take them and throw them into wherever they say, where the shelters are not there.
21:31Okay.
21:31So you clearly are a dog lover.
21:33And you don't, and you know, so...
21:35And then this winter, and that's a little puppy.
21:38It was no threat to anyone.
21:40Okay.
21:40So fair point.
21:41So you seem to be a dog lover.
21:43I am.
21:43You get it in the interest.
21:45Okay.
21:45And then to respond, because a journalist asks you that there's a possibility of a privilege motion.
21:50You turn around and you say, bah, wow, which again...
21:52No, because...
21:54I mean, hello, I get down, it's over, the whole show is over, I thought.
21:58And then I get, oh, what are you going to say?
22:01There's a privilege motion against you.
22:02What are you going to say?
22:03What does one say?
22:05So you think it's misplaced priorities in terms of trying to move a privilege motion against you?
22:10Yes.
22:11With what Priyanka Gandhi also said?
22:12Against an issue.
22:13A non-issue like that.
22:14It's not against me.
22:16I'm not afraid.
22:17But you're saying it's a non-issue.
22:18Like Priyanka Gandhi in her speech where Vande Matram was being debated also said that this is a non-issue.
22:24They are...
22:25It's implied.
22:25Yes.
22:26Implied that there are bigger issues that needed to be discussed.
22:28No, no.
22:29She never said that.
22:29No, she didn't say it.
22:30But she implied that there are other issues that we should be discussing.
22:33More crushing importance has to be given to other issues.
22:38And all that this government does from the time they wake up every morning, you know, it's wonderful.
22:42There's a story that says how a negative-minded demon always took the Lord's name and finally he found a place in heaven.
22:53And the other devotee asked that, how has he earned a place in heaven?
22:57Because he's always been against you.
22:59He's asked the Lord.
23:01So the Lord said, yeah, but he wakes up every morning and he takes my name.
23:04So somewhere in heaven, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru must be also smiling benevolently.
23:12This government wakes up every morning, three times, four times a day, they will take Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's name.
23:20These are people who haven't read the history of this country, who have no idea and have a single agenda that they want to be more greater, grander than Pandit Nehru and make people forget Nehru.
23:33There's a whole Nehruvian perception in the world.
23:39It's going to take more than 11 years and a few elections for people to forget.
23:44Neshagri, I'm going to circle back to you now in particular and I'm going to go back into parliamentary history where you very recently also suggested that you're going to sue the Prime Minister for calling you Shrupanaka.
23:55Shrupanaka.
23:56No, I never said that.
23:57You never said that.
23:57It's a waste of time.
23:58He's my brother.
24:00This is a family tie.
24:03So it's okay if he calls me Shrupanaka.
24:04He's my brother.
24:05So he's entitled to a status too.
24:08All right.
24:08But you did indicate that you wanted to take action, legal action.
24:11No, at that point, which never happened.
24:13I said I will, but then I was very amused that this man who talks so derogatorily about women, and that's the signal we give the roadside Romeos, that it's okay to misbehave with women.
24:30And that there are IPC sections and constitutional provisions which protect a woman's dignity, and anything that actually denigrates a woman's status is a crime.
24:44It's a punishable crime.
24:46The Treasury bench used to say at that time you were trying to interrupt his speech constantly.
24:49Because I was so amused at the blatant mistruths that with, I have it on video, if you can show it, where he said that yeh congress aadhar ko lekar jhol rahi hai hai, or something to that extent.
25:06And next thing he's claiming that he was the architect of Aadhar.
25:11I mean, a blatant mistruth in your face.
25:13That made you laugh, and that's what was picked up.
25:16Incredible. It was an incredulous expression, that's it.
25:20So, all right, so that's gone, you know, why, you know...
25:24Why we are not supposed to question if the highest authority in Parliament talks like that?
25:32No, of course it's your job to question.
25:33You're there for a reason, you're the opposition.
25:35Yes.
25:35But, you know, that aside, so why is constantly stress laid on the fact that Benu Kachadri likes to stoke a fire, create a controversy?
25:46No, I don't fall into line.
25:48In 2018, you made a statement, Ms. Choudhury, that, you know, the casting couch is not just in the film industry, it's also in Parliament.
25:56Yes, it's true. You mean to say it's not true?
25:57I don't know, I'm asking you, I have a...
25:58Look, I am a woman, I'm a mother, a grandmother.
26:02And I thought I saw it all till I became Minister of Women and Child Welfare.
26:08And the smartest, the most intelligent, the most well-dressed, the most elite family women walked in through that chamber door because I kept an open-door policy.
26:20And within 10 minutes of them sitting down, they would break down and weep.
26:29And that was the only luxury.
26:31And these were women parliamentarians.
26:32Women parliamentarians, women bureaucracy, women security personnel, everyone, cutting across.
26:39The wound is the geography for a woman.
26:42Her wound is the geography.
26:43And we went to international conferences.
26:46We went to China, the Beijing conference, blah, blah, blah.
26:50It didn't matter whether you were black, white, yellow, polka dot, pinstriped.
26:57Their experience was the same.
26:59And you still hold it.
27:00Men belittle you.
27:02They see you as part of their perks.
27:04That you have come, left your door safety and come out.
27:07So you must be an available woman.
27:10And you have to...
27:10And there's still laws in so-called progress development nations which say that a woman must wear high heels to work.
27:20Why?
27:21Why?
27:22Is there a rule like that for men to wear elevators to work?
27:25So you still stick by what you said there, Ms. Choudhury, that...
27:28Women are fairly...
27:29On the casting couch...
27:30Yes, I stand by that.
27:33And if anyone...
27:34But the casting couch is also there in the parliament.
27:36Yes, it is.
27:37I just want to...
27:38Am I asking?
27:39Yes, it is.
27:40And if I don't articulate this, more women become victims.
27:45When the Me Too campaign came up, I was relieved.
27:49I said that last women have the courage, the empowerment to come forward and say...
27:54But most of the men who were routed at that time have been normalized.
27:57They've been, you know, taken back into the system.
27:59That is the battle.
28:00That is the battle that we are facing.
28:01That was step one.
28:03The journey is still ahead.
28:04I'll ask you a question, Ms. Choudhury.
28:06Do you think one of the main reasons that you've paid the price, you know, where there are taglines, and I'm guilty of using it as well, where we call you a controversial MP, where there's so much, you know, made and said about you, comes at the price of you being a woman.
28:20If Renuka Choudhury was a man, all of this would not have happened.
28:24Of course.
28:24You think that's...
28:25Yes, that's true.
28:26That is true.
28:26We are judged as women.
28:28We are judged as women with a mouth.
28:29Because your laughter, if that laughter was a man's laughter...
28:32It wouldn't have happened like this.
28:33It wouldn't have happened like this.
28:35It's because you're a woman.
28:36Yeah.
28:37And today you're being...
28:38A privileged motion is being moved against you because of bawa, because of you're being a woman, or you're just a troublemaker?
28:43No, just because I'm a smart person.
28:45Troublemaker.
28:45No, I'm a witty person.
28:47I give it as it is.
28:48And they have no sense of humor.
28:49Like I said, this government has a stronger sense of rumor than humor.
28:53I'm going to come back to come down to your party.
28:55You've been...
28:56You know, you're in the winter session again.
28:57And once again, you have the leader of opposition that you've raised many a times, that the government is very antagonized about, is going to leave.
29:08And he is leaving for an event of the Congress.
29:11He's going to be overseas.
29:12It's the winter session when the Bihar elections were there.
29:15Once again, you know, there was talk of Rahul Gandhi not being around.
29:19Why is there this sense of dystopia within the Congress that everything is possibly wrong, you know, with the government?
29:25But is there ever a sense of self-reflection that maybe we're not getting it right?
29:29Maybe the LOP needs to sit out the winter session.
29:31There is an LOP, and all of you are giving it the due respect of being an LOP.
29:38Did the government do that?
29:40You had Mr. Putin in India.
29:42And neither Mr. Kargi, one of our tallest Dalit leaders, never mind him being Dalit, but the most competent, the most experienced, a man who's been in public life and never lost in the election since he was 26 or something when he first came in as an MLA, 28 perhaps.
30:02They won't call them LOPs?
30:07They won't invite them for an official dinner?
30:09Ms. Chaudhuri, I hear you.
30:11There is a...
30:12There might not be protocol, but there are necessities in politics.
30:18Yes, which these crude people...
30:20No, I...
30:20I'm sorry.
30:21But does it wash away with your own self-reflection?
30:25No, it doesn't.
30:26We do introspect, and Rahul Gandhi is particularly focused on seeing that what...
30:32But ma'am, as a journalist, when I sit here and I speak of it, he's not going to be in the winter session because there have been a sizable amount of people that have voted for you.
30:39And what we see is, not we, but the people see is accusations.
30:43You know, there might be credibility behind it.
30:46There warrants investigation, where your vote chaudhuri, all other accusations that you lay at the doorstep of the government.
30:51But one common thread is that there is zero self-awareness, and there is a sense of delusion within the Congress that there is nothing wrong with the party.
30:59And one of those examples is what I'm giving you today, that the leader of opposition is not going to last out the winter session in Parliament.
31:06He's chosen to go and attend an event outside.
31:08The same thing happened when Bihar elections were on.
31:11Look, none of you are talking about the walk that he did in Bihar.
31:15Do you remember how many manas he actually put on the ground and walked and the sizable crowds and people that came around?
31:23The confidence that he gave to the workers and to the citizens there that he's there hands-on.
31:30How come that's not mentioned in the same breath that he was not there for the Bihar election?
31:35When wasn't he there for the Bihar election?
31:38He was very much there.
31:40As an outsider, he can't be there during the election process.
31:43Right before the election, the run-up to it, two weeks.
31:45No, he wasn't.
31:46He was there laying the bare work on the ground because the workers have to go into the booth areas, do the door-to-door verification, be on the ground.
31:57They can't be walking on the streets with Rahul Gandhi.
32:00No, okay, I understand.
32:01It's difficult for you.
32:02So that is a steady, strategic exit that he had to do.
32:05No, Renuka ji, you know, I understand.
32:07And this conversation is not going to go anywhere because I can raise multiple questions.
32:11You will defend your leader.
32:13But I'll come back to the point that I was raising.
32:16Let's talk about one of the charges that your party, your leader, you yourself are very vociferous on, and that is Vokchori,
32:23where you say that you did all you did for Bihar, but ultimately that election was stolen from you.
32:27That is what your official line is.
32:29The Haryana election was stolen from you.
32:30The Maharashtra election was stolen from you.
32:32There's something sinister going on where the election process is concerned, is your charge.
32:36How do you justify it then?
32:38Because at one end, you come from the state, that you say that the Bihar election was stolen, yet you celebrate a Jubilee Hill win in Hyderabad.
32:49Yeah, that was a bit of excess.
32:51You shouldn't have done that.
32:52No, we celebrate it.
32:54It's a victory.
32:54It's a by-election.
32:59I mean, we would be worried if we didn't win a by-election being in power.
33:03But, but Reynika Chaudhryji, the point is not that.
33:06The point is you can't celebrate one win, and then if you lose the other election, then you say that, you know, it's a red election.
33:14Either you take, either, just let me, allow me to complete the question.
33:17Either you take an ideological stand, which has happened before in other countries, and say we just don't believe in the election system.
33:23You go and boycott an election.
33:25You don't do that.
33:26You then choose to celebrate one, and then you say this one be lost, ye toh rigged hai.
33:31It doesn't work.
33:32Two things can't happen together.
33:33Let me tell you one thing.
33:34While the whole media is so focused, and the opposition, the ruling party is so focused on deriding and decrying Rahul Gandhi, you've all missed the woods for the trees.
33:47Because if you go to see the sequence of events that this government, they're very clever.
33:53They're very clever.
33:54We have to give it to them.
33:55I can see it to that, that they're so intelligent.
33:58If you see the sequence of events, what was the step one that they took many years ago?
34:04The appointment of election commissioners.
34:08Okay, just see how nicely they've laid the graveyard of elections.
34:12So what happens in the appointment of election commissioners?
34:16That is absolutely politicized.
34:18And then you go and you gain majority control over all the appointments.
34:25Who do you put in?
34:27You remove the CGI.
34:28As per the norm and the rule and the practice, you have the Chief Justice of India involved in the electoral process of choosing the election commissioners.
34:40He's arbitrarily removed.
34:42He's arbitrarily removed.
34:43And who comes in and plays?
34:45Bureaucracy.
34:46Do we expect bureaucracy to stand up to a ruling government and say no?
34:52No.
34:53Very clever.
34:54So the firstborn is moved.
34:56Then what do they do?
34:58They give legal immunity.
35:00They give legal immunity to the election commission.
35:03So a citizen or a political party cannot move a court because they're an autonomous body and the law has been changed.
35:13So you have no choice but to sit there and talk about it and do nothing else because there is no other provision for you to do that.
35:24Then what do you do, which is given for this official action?
35:30The CC footage.
35:31Suddenly, the pride and respect for women is so much that we can't show a CC footage of women standing in a political line to vote, for God's sake.
35:43No, I understand.
35:44It's not some changing room.
35:45You've laid up.
35:46Nobody, you know, I agree that all of this needs to be investigated.
35:49No, no, no.
35:50I'm saying these are all the structures in place.
35:53Then you do mandatory deletion of the CCTV footage.
35:57Hmm.
35:58So this evidence, which is evidence for you, has vanished.
36:02That has disappeared.
36:04Then vote chauri starts in Haryana, starts in Maharashtra, starts somewhere else.
36:10And large sections of votes are removed arbitrarily.
36:14The citizen has no right to go anywhere.
36:17There is a time lag within which you have to...
36:20Ms. Shagri, I hear you.
36:21Now, at the end of this, Bihar election came on the heels.
36:25I think...
36:26And we knew that we are not able to move court.
36:30We have no legal record.
36:32Meenuka Chaudhuri ji, I hear you on this.
36:33Yes.
36:34This needs to be investigated as a journalist.
36:35I do think this needs a court monitored probe.
36:37Yes.
36:38Having said that, having said that, there is a political argument to it.
36:40Yes.
36:41When did the EVMs come in?
36:42You know very well.
36:43Yes.
36:44They came in the times of Rajiv Gandhi.
36:45That is when the EVMs came in.
36:46So, you know, now to reject something that you brought on, it's a political argument.
36:50The other political argument says it's not the first time.
36:52You've had appointed ECs who you have given tickets to to fight elections during the Congress.
36:57Did we remove the ECJs?
36:59Yes.
37:00I am giving, I'm giving, I'm giving multiple.
37:01Of course.
37:02There's a political argument.
37:03Yeah.
37:04But let me, let me turn around and ask you the question that I asked you.
37:07You do not believe in this electoral process.
37:09Then why is it that the Congress refuses to take a hard stand?
37:13Now there's a dichotomy there and say that, okay, we don't believe in this process.
37:16We're not participating in it.
37:17Because the Bihar election came so fast on the heels of setting up all this that the government
37:23did delineating the vote bank of the workers.
37:26Are you not fighting Assam?
37:27You're not fighting Assam.
37:28You will fight Assam.
37:29You will fight Bengal.
37:30We will fight Bengal.
37:31We will fight Assam.
37:32We'll see.
37:33And then when it turns around, you'll turn around and say it does.
37:35We'll see.
37:36Yes.
37:37I believe that Mamata Banerjee is going to give them a good round fight.
37:40Okay.
37:41So that election is not going to be, so that election will be rigged.
37:43I don't know.
37:44Let's see.
37:45Let's see what they do.
37:46Do you understand?
37:47I understand your point of view, but I want you to understand something.
37:52In the army, we have a saying, never underestimate the enemy.
37:56Hmm.
37:57So we are going with all our guns prepared.
37:59We don't know about Assam election or the West Bengal election.
38:02I'm not going to preempt anything by saying anything.
38:05Now what we are going to do?
38:06Okay.
38:07We will do what we will do at the right time.
38:10Okay.
38:11But having said that, it is our collective responsibility, both yours and mine, to establish how insidiously
38:20the instruments of democracy are being removed.
38:24You are suddenly, you are shy to give footage.
38:28Then you delete footage.
38:31That is allowed.
38:32Like I said, I have a lot of points.
38:33How does the court even accept this?
38:35But the point is that the Congress party takes this high moral ground.
38:39No, no.
38:40It is not moral.
38:41It is legal ground.
38:42No, no.
38:43The party does take a high moral ground, refuses to reflect on its own.
38:45You have been missing in a lot of elections.
38:47You don't have your alliances right.
38:50You don't have your ticket distribution right, which happened in Bihar as well.
38:54But I am just, you know, I understand.
38:56It is like I said.
38:57No, we have stumbled.
38:58I am not saying no.
38:59And then either you decide you don't believe in an electoral system, but if you believe
39:03then...
39:04No, we have to fight for it.
39:05Then you have to fight for it.
39:06We don't give up and vacate the compound and push away.
39:09Okay.
39:10I don't think we should do that.
39:11So you will continue to fight elections and you will continue...
39:13We will continue to fight.
39:14Okay.
39:15On different platforms and different levels.
39:17But whether you will fight an election, the coming one, is still up for discussion.
39:21No, that is something that we will collectively take.
39:24You will collectively take.
39:25It's not some individual who takes a point of view, unlike the BJP.
39:28So, you know, here we have a little more democracy where we talk and we disagree.
39:33Some would say your party has too much democracy.
39:35Perhaps.
39:36That's quite possible because you know what happens over a period of time.
39:40We are the longest, oldest party that's been there.
39:44And sometimes we take things for granted or sometimes we don't respond in time.
39:51And we do have...
39:52We have stumbled.
39:53We have slipped on certain fronts.
39:55But then there is also a grassroot revival and setting things in pace.
40:01Okay.
40:02And it will take that inertia to...
40:04That inertia will take some momentum before...
40:06I am going to touch on that.
40:07And I am going to invite you for a longer discussion on my podcast.
40:09Sure.
40:10But this is a smaller, shorter interview.
40:11Sure.
40:12So, I am running out of time.
40:13But I am going to ask you three questions.
40:14You talk about that there is a system in place to revive the Congress.
40:17There is also...
40:18I was interviewing Dig Vijay ji the last time.
40:21And he says, you know, there is also time now for the old guard to let go.
40:24And you are the old guard.
40:26Old in what sense?
40:27The old guard.
40:28I don't know what old guard and new guard...
40:29I am not going to make an ageist joke.
40:30I am not going to make an ageist joke.
40:31I am not going to make an ageist joke.
40:32I think it is very wrong to enable people with age or something.
40:35I do not want to get ageist.
40:36I do not want to sound ageist.
40:37But there is a constant friction within the Congress between the old and the new.
40:42That the old needs to give way to the new.
40:44That is true of any change.
40:45Change is eternal and perpetual.
40:47It will happen.
40:48So, is the old guard now sticking on and refusing to let go of the old systems and workings
40:53of the Congress?
40:54How much of the old guard is left behind?
40:55Tell me.
40:56I am asking you.
40:57There is a very minimal lot who are left behind.
40:59Okay.
41:00And I do not think we should sneer or jeer at them because...
41:03No, I am not.
41:04You are part of the old guard.
41:05I do not think I am old or young or new or anything like that.
41:09I think I am a Congress worker and that is eternal.
41:13And I will work for the party and I think we should be able to bridge that with younger
41:21enthusiasm.
41:22I was a young worker at one time.
41:23Fair point.
41:24With all our fervour and zeal and sometimes we don't have...
41:27Oh, which you still have.
41:28Yeah, that's true.
41:29In here, yeah.
41:30But we don't...
41:32But we now have...
41:33We are well-rounded.
41:34All our sharp edges have gone.
41:36And so we are well-rounded now and so we know a little more calculation, a little more weighing
41:43the pros and cons and how to negotiate.
41:45Maneuver.
41:46So, it works.
41:47It works.
41:48It works.
41:49I have young workers who have been with me for the past 25 years.
41:52I am proud to tell you that I have never paid them a single pie.
41:57And they are doing it of their own.
41:58They will.
41:59And they, at the grassroot level, they are valiant warriors.
42:03When I first met them, I told them, I said I don't want some power.
42:05I said I don't want some power.
42:06So, it's going to take a while before, you know, at least...
42:08Yeah, that momentum catches up.
42:10And I'm delighted to tell you...
42:11That the old guard steps down.
42:13It's going to be a while.
42:14You'll see what's happening inside the BJP.
42:16That's going to...
42:17There are many implosions which they suppress and they don't tell.
42:20That's the problem.
42:21The point is that the Congress will keep enjoying in...
42:22No, no, no.
42:23We are not.
42:24We will relish what's going on in the BJP while their own house is on fire.
42:27No, no.
42:28We are not fiddling in Rome.
42:30We are watching and we are taking charge.
42:32You know, this conversation has gone on for half an hour.
42:34It's a...
42:35We must do it a longer format.
42:37But let me ask you, you talk about too much democracy.
42:40I spoke about it and you agreed that possibly.
42:43Is Shashit Harur a product of too much democracy?
42:46That's a question you need to ask him.
42:48He's very articulate.
42:50And he has many tongue twisting words which can describe the situation that he's in.
42:56How would you describe it?
42:57Shashit Harur benefited vastly from associating with the Congress party.
43:01And he has...
43:03He has his own fan following.
43:05No one's denying that.
43:07I don't know how good his political acumen is.
43:12And there's always a price to pay.
43:16There are no free lunches.
43:18What free lunches are you looking at?
43:20I'm just saying it's a statement of facts that nothing comes free.
43:25So, this kind of what he's doing while pretending that it's all very eluteristic and very deshmakt and all that hasn't gone down well.
43:38It's actually hurt his image, I feel.
43:40With whom?
43:41With the people?
43:42With the people.
43:43Congress for sure.
43:44Congress?
43:45Okay, we are used to this.
43:46That's the problem.
43:47You should have suspended him by now.
43:48But you should have suspended him by now then?
43:51It's not always a black and white situation.
43:53Okay.
43:54Alright?
43:55And we will bide our time and whatever has to happen will happen.
43:59Till the time he decides to do what he does.
44:01Well, why isn't he doing it then?
44:03Okay.
44:04Fair point.
44:05There's also a question.
44:06Why isn't he doing it then?
44:08If he thinks that whatever, whatever he aspires for.
44:13He has a fair, this thing in saying I want this, I want that.
44:17He expects certain recognition and all.
44:20Where Kerala is concerned especially.
44:22Sorry?
44:23Where Kerala is concerned.
44:24Not just Kerala, he also contested for Congress party president and no one denied him that right.
44:30We said go ahead and fight.
44:32He lost.
44:33He lost in the UN as well if you remember.
44:36He won in Kerala because the Kerala Congress workers are so committed and devoted.
44:40And we have wonderful grand men on the ground there like Ramesh Chani Tala.
44:44There's an election coming up there as well.
44:45No.
44:46We have Ramesh Chani Tala and we have other great guys.
44:48Clearly you picked a size.
44:49Okay.
44:50No.
44:51I have no size in Kerala.
44:52What am I doing in Kerala?
44:54But known faces.
44:55Okay.
44:56You know people who know.
44:57You say the name and they tend people who say yes.
44:59Who know him.
45:00So it's whatever and you have Mr. Casey Venugopal who's running the whole country.
45:04Country?
45:05GSO.
45:06In terms of Congress.
45:08Ha.
45:09Countrywide.
45:10And there's a fair amount of criticism for him as well.
45:12Yeah.
45:13Who I interviewed last week and who didn't have very good things to say about Mr. Casey
45:17Venugopal.
45:18There'll always be someone.
45:19Do people say nice things about me?
45:21No, they don't.
45:22Okay.
45:23But does it alter me or does it change me or my belief systems or my capacity to do something?
45:28Okay.
45:29I work also.
45:30I work as efficiently as I hit back.
45:33So it's okay.
45:34It's part of the game.
45:35It goes with the turf.
45:36All right.
45:37Thank you, Ms. Chaudhary, for taking the time out.
45:39And I hope to get you back on a longer and easier conversation in my podcast.
45:44But thank you.
45:45Unless you, by the time the government goes to dogs.
45:47So you have to look out and be careful.
45:49I'm not saying anything.
45:50No.
45:51You can't.
45:52I can.
45:53Yeah, you can.
45:54But thank you.
45:55Thank you for taking the time out.
45:56I appreciate it.
45:57Thanks.
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