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https://www.pupia.tv - Roma - Audizione Alsalem, Onu (inglese)
Alle ore 14, presso l'Aula del III piano di Palazzo San Macuto, la Commissione parlamentare di inchiesta sul femminicidio, nonché su ogni forma di violenza di genere ha svolto l'audizione della Relatrice speciale delle Nazioni Unite sulla violenza contro le donne, Reem Alsalem. (20.11.25)
#pupia
Alle ore 14, presso l'Aula del III piano di Palazzo San Macuto, la Commissione parlamentare di inchiesta sul femminicidio, nonché su ogni forma di violenza di genere ha svolto l'audizione della Relatrice speciale delle Nazioni Unite sulla violenza contro le donne, Reem Alsalem. (20.11.25)
#pupia
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00:00Buongiorno a tutti.
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03:26Grazie.
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03:40Grazie.
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03:56È un honore e un piacere a te dire oggi e grazie molto per l'opportunità di essere con voi.
04:03Come alcuni di voi potete sapere, i rapporteurs speciali sono esperti indipendenti che sono appuntati dal Consiglio di Derezza Humanos
04:09per la virtù di loro esperienza su problemi specifici tematici o sui situazioni di paese.
04:18Questa mandata, il rapporteur speciale di violenza gegen le donne, è stata installata nel 1994,
04:24quindi ha esistito per più di 30 anni.
04:29Questo è un testamento alla valutazione che questo mandato ha portato per l'efforzamento internazionale
04:36per evitare le forme di violenza gegen le donne, e per aiutare e proteggere la violenza,
04:43una forma di violenza che è a livello globalmente.
04:47Allora, noi facciamo questo in un numero di modi,
04:52con le lettere che scriviamo a quelli che possono essere responsabili per questa violenza,
04:58come stati e non stati, anche i negozii.
05:03Ci facciamo questo anche con la visita di città,
05:06dove abbiamo guardato la situazione in un paese,
05:09in un paese, le legali e le politiche che il paese ha in place,
05:15per evitare e rispondere a violenza,
05:17e poi prepariamo anche un reporte
05:20con le risultate e le raccomandazioni
05:23in fronte del Consiglato Humanitario.
05:26E poi facciamo anche, come la Presidente ha detto,
05:30con le informazioni semattiche.
05:34Ora, devo presentare due informazioni per anno,
05:37uno per il Consiglato Humanitario e uno per la Generala Assemblea delle Nazioni.
05:42E, come abbiamo bisogno di legge
05:45per decidere come scriviamo i nostri informazioni
05:49dei suporti e dei suporti,
05:51abbiamo deciso,
05:53che ho deciso di essere un mandato holder,
05:55che ho dovuto focalizzare
05:56le problemi di violenza per le donne e le donne
05:59che non hanno ricevuto sufficiente attenzione,
06:02che non sono stati impattati
06:05bene,
06:07o anche nuovi e emergenti formi di violenza.
06:11Quindi,
06:14so I say this,
06:15as a background
06:16to the short introduction
06:18I will give
06:19on my report
06:20Custody,
06:21Child Custody,
06:23Violence Against Women
06:24and Children,
06:25because I felt that this was an issue
06:28that was not discussed
06:31sufficiently
06:32and was not understood sufficiently
06:34at global level.
06:37And that countries have not completely understood
06:43the human rights consequences
06:45of harmful child custody proceedings.
06:48So, therefore,
06:53please consider this report
06:54as a contribution
06:56to the reflection
06:58that we should all be making
07:00on this issue.
07:02So, this report
07:07sheds light
07:08on the tendency
07:09of family courts
07:10to dismiss
07:11the history
07:12of domestic violence
07:13and abuse
07:14in custody cases,
07:15especially where mothers
07:17or children
07:19have brought forward
07:20credible allegations
07:21of domestic abuse,
07:23including credible allegations
07:26of having suffered coercive control,
07:29physical or sexual abuse.
07:31and what the report shows
07:35is that in numerous countries
07:37around the globe,
07:40family courts have tended to judge
07:43such allegations
07:45brought forward by mothers
07:48and or their children
07:50as false,
07:52or judge them
07:54as constituting deliberate efforts
07:56to manipulate their children
07:58and separate them
07:59from their fathers.
08:03As Madam President said,
08:06these mothers are often accused,
08:08therefore,
08:09of engaging in something
08:10called parental alienation,
08:12a concept called parental alienation.
08:15Now, there is no commonly accepted
08:22or official clinical
08:24or scientific definition
08:25of this term,
08:26parental alienation.
08:27But it is understood broadly
08:31to refer to the deliberate
08:34or unintentional acts
08:35that cause the unwarranted rejection
08:39by a child towards one of his or her parents,
08:43usually the father.
08:46And this concept was coined
08:51by someone called Richard Gardner,
08:54a psychologist who claimed
08:56that children alleging sexual abuse
08:58during high-conflict divorces
09:00suffer from something called parental alienation syndrome,
09:07which caused mothers who have led their children
09:10to believe that they have been abused
09:12by their fathers
09:13and to raise wrong allegations
09:15of abuse against the fathers.
09:17And Mr. Gardner recommended severe remedies
09:24or severe acts to address this quote-unquote syndrome,
09:31including completely cutting off the mother
09:34from the child in order to deprogram the child.
09:39Now, as I have established in my report,
09:46this concept is actually a pseudo-concept.
09:51This concept lacks scientific and factual evidence
09:56and has been criticised worldwide
09:59for its lack of empirical basis
10:02and for its problematic assertions
10:05about sexual abuse.
10:08Why?
10:09Because it reframes abuse claims
10:12as false tools
10:14for alienating a child from his father.
10:18and these kind of false accusations
10:23have dissuaded or convinced courts and evaluators
10:29that this kind of abuse,
10:34sexual, physical abuse, coercive control,
10:38has actually not occurred.
10:40That it's an imagination,
10:44that these are lies,
10:46that they are manufactured.
10:51And in my report, I made it clear
10:53that the medical, psychiatric,
10:56and psychological associations around the world
10:59have dismissed this concept of parental alienation.
11:05and it was removed from the international classification
11:10of diseases by the World Health Organization.
11:15Now, despite the fact that the World Health Organization
11:19was very clear that the parental alienation syndrome
11:22does not exist,
11:24it still is being applied, unfortunately,
11:28in many jurisdictions around the world.
11:31And many family court systems actually use it.
11:41So my report then looks at the way in which family courts
11:45in different regions around the globe
11:47use the parental alienation concept or syndrome
11:52or other iterations of that concept
11:56in child custody cases.
11:58And I have established that in many cases
12:03when they use this accusation
12:06of parentally alienating the child,
12:09courts ignore the histories of domestic violence
12:13and lead to the double victimization
12:17of the victims of such violence.
12:20And so I make a number of recommendations
12:23to states and others
12:25on how, therefore, to remedy this situation.
12:31I also show that this use of this parental alienation concept
12:36is highly gendered.
12:38By that I mean it's often weaponized
12:41and used against the mothers, predominantly.
12:49And the issue is that the gendered use
12:56of the parental alienation syndrome means also
12:59that when the father is accused of perpetrating violence,
13:08he often weaponizes the concept of parental alienation
13:14in order to distract from the accusation
13:18that he has committed sexual or physical abuse
13:23either against the mother or the child.
13:25So it becomes a legal strategy often used in courts
13:30in order for the court to stop focusing really
13:33on the issue that matters, which are these credible allegations.
13:40And get the court to believe that these are all inventions,
13:45false allegations.
13:48And the problem with that is that what happens
13:50is that in many courts then,
13:52the judiciary decides to take at face value the accusations
14:02of alienating the child that the father makes
14:07and disbelief the mother.
14:09This happens in many jurisdictions around the world.
14:13And often the mother then is not just disbelief,
14:21she is also punished by the judiciary,
14:25by the courts, for raising then claims,
14:32for bringing forward these reports
14:34that either she or her child have been aggressed or abused.
14:44Now the report also shows that it's not just the judiciary
14:49that plays along in this or is part of this failure,
14:55but also family and child experts.
14:59They also fail to take into consideration the previous history
15:03of domestic violence against this woman or the child
15:08and may often also recommend to the court
15:13or confirm to the court that there is a situation,
15:18a deliberate situation of alienating the child
15:22from the father by the mother.
15:25Now you may ask me how come this happens
15:29and my response to you is because there is a whole business
15:36that is established around the concept of parental alienation.
15:41So this business thrives on the assertion
15:47that parental alienation is not a pseudo concept,
15:50it is real.
15:52and therefore a lot of training modules have been created
15:59to confirm that actually parental alienation is a thing,
16:03is something that exists.
16:05And there are many trainers that train on this,
16:09they will train child protection experts,
16:13they will train the judiciary, they will train lawyers,
16:17and so it is also very lucrative to be engaged in this business.
16:27And it is really also regretful
16:30that a number of academic journals also then publish articles
16:36that seek to confirm parental alienation as a concept.
16:40Now, the grave consequences are not only relevant for the mother,
16:50but also for the child.
16:52Because as my report shows,
16:54often decisions by child, by courts,
16:59family courts on child custody matters
17:03are taken without considering the views of the child itself.
17:07So we know that the child has a right to have his or her views being heard,
17:14but what happens is that the child is often marginalized.
17:19So in the cases where the child is a victim of physical or sexual abuse,
17:25the child is not listened to,
17:28and the views of the child are not taken into consideration.
17:32Now, to conclude on this issue,
17:41I have of course made a number of recommendations in the report
17:45that I hope you can go through also in more details than we can discuss here.
17:51But I firmly believe that it is the duty of the state to put an end to this weaponization of parental alienation accusations,
18:03to stop having it being used in courts to be weaponized against mothers and children.
18:10So it has to improve the access of women and children to victim-centered justice.
18:19The state has to make sure that its judiciary, its justice system,
18:25and all other relevant entities and ministries,
18:28leave aside these unconfirmed and unfounded pseudo-frameworks
18:34that are really sexist and at times also misogynistic at their core.
18:41States have to also monitor how parental alienation allegations are used today,
18:51and to collect data on the use of this issue and on the situation of victims and children.
19:00And I also think there is a lot to be done with regards to the application of the Hague Abduction Convention as well,
19:09because the Hague Abduction Convention, of course, deals with the abduction of children by one of the parents.
19:18But the way the Hague Abduction Convention is applied today is that the many women that flee with their children
19:29because they cannot get justice in the countries where they reside,
19:34are then forced through the Hague Abduction Convention to return the child to a situation of abuse.
19:43So because of the failures at national level to listen to and believe the mother or the child,
19:52mothers find themselves often in impossible situations where they have to take these drastic measures.
19:59And I'm happy to discuss with you in more details what I think needs to be done with regards to the Hague Abduction Convention,
20:06because the Hague Abduction Convention includes a number of articles that allow the country where the fleeing mother and the child reside not to return the child
20:18if it is determined that the life or the safety of the child would be in danger.
20:24But right now, many children are being returned without due consideration of the conditions to which they are being returned to.
20:33They are being returned to the arms of their abuser, including, I may say, in Italy or by Italy.
20:43So this is something we can certainly also discuss.
20:47So I will stop here and I'm happy to take also any questions and engage in our conversation.
20:54Thank you, Madam President.
20:56Thank you very much.
21:01I would like now to ask my colleagues whether they have any questions, please.
21:06If I may?
21:13Yes, first of all, I wish to thank the UN Special Rapporteur for this hearing.
21:23You need to speak a bit more slowly because we have simultaneous translation.
21:27Can you hear me, Madam?
21:31Okay, and we also have sign language interpretation today for those of you who are following remotely.
21:38Now, in your report, you pointed out that in Italy we have a certain number of cases of secondary victimization
21:48in connection with custody of children, especially with regard to migrant women or victims of trafficking.
21:56The Cartabia reform has introduced some novelties even in the civil process.
22:01Custody and listening to the minor and protecting victims of violence, for example.
22:06So my question is this.
22:08To what extent do you think that the provisions in the reform are sufficient and are able to reverse this trend then?
22:17And I also have another question.
22:19What gaps do you think still exist?
22:22And what urgent measures would you recommend to the Italian Parliament so as to avoid seeing women who report violence
22:35are then victims of secondary victimization through the judicial system, the justice system?
22:42Thank you very much.
22:43And now Senator Valenta has the floor.
22:45First of all, I wish to thank you, Madam.
22:47Thank you for coming today, for coming to Italy, and for coming to this parliamentary inquiry committee.
22:55Now, in the previous committee, as well as in this committee, we've been carrying out an investigation, an inquiry on this very subject.
23:05And we call it secondary victimization because we think that when children are taken away from mothers in our courtrooms,
23:17especially in civil proceedings, we think that this is one of the most serious forms of secondary victimization
23:23and therefore violence which is perpetrated by the state itself against women.
23:28This is what we are seeing in our justice system.
23:30Now, this is my question.
23:32Of course, we are continuing with our inquiry.
23:35And, okay, with the reform, we've tried, of course, to reform the civil process.
23:42And something has been done, but not everything.
23:44But I'm not going to discuss that.
23:46I have a question instead, a question on your report.
23:49Now, the report was drawn up on the basis of which countries, which of the larger countries.
23:58How many countries have you considered?
24:00How many cases are part of your inquiry and survey?
24:04So this is a quantitative interest that I have to see how representative it is.
24:10Because just to put it simply, we've verified every single thing that you've pointed out.
24:17We've seen this in Italy, and we've tried to put in place a reform, and we're now trying to determine to what extent it works
24:24and how to what extent it resolves the problem.
24:27Over to you, madam.
24:30Yes, thank you very much for these important questions.
24:36So I must confess, I'm not aware of the details of this latest measure put in place on behalf of migrant women.
24:49However, what I can say, in general, is that there's a number of barriers facing migrant women.
24:57And so they have to be addressed as a package.
25:00One is, of course, the precarious legal status that she may have in a country.
25:06And in a number of countries, including in Europe, if a woman that came to, let's say, a country based on the legal resident of her spouse,
25:21and then faces domestic violence by the spouse, yet she has no way of obtaining a separate legal residence in her own right.
25:33That traps the woman in a situation of victimization.
25:38So, again, I don't know what the situation is for Italy, if you have addressed this, but this is one of the barriers,
25:45which means that women will feel very disempowered to come forward and report, or to be able really to also deal with accusations by their male partners.
26:03Because, also, they are scared then that they might be deported and never be able to see their children again.
26:11Another barrier is, of course, the language issue.
26:15So, many migrant women are not conversant with the language of the country where they live,
26:21or do not have it at the level that is required to engage in court proceedings.
26:27They may not have access to free or low-cost legal aid.
26:33This is a big problem.
26:35Because, as I said, in child custody cases, parental alienation, but also other things, are weaponized.
26:43Which means that, also, you try to drag out the legal process, and migrant women often will not have access to the same financial resources
26:54as the national of the country who is their partner or former partner.
27:00So, this is what I would say there.
27:03Now, on which basis, let me maybe tell you a little bit on how we actually do our reports.
27:10So, what matters more than the quantitative is really the qualitative.
27:17But, I can tell you that, even for this report, I received, I think my, when I put out a call for input, asking for information,
27:29I received over a thousand pieces of written submissions.
27:34Many of them from individual mothers from all over the world that had been harmed by child custody proceedings, particularly parental alienation.
27:47But, in addition to that, I have received also a lot of contributions from states, from civil society, from women organizations, from organizations that work with victims.
28:01So, I also, you know, verify that separately. I triangulate that information.
28:09And I also hold expert consultations. I hold consultations with representative groups that represent these actors that have provided this information.
28:24And then, of course, I have and do receive information from regional and international human rights mechanisms working on ending discrimination and violence against women.
28:36And here, perhaps, let me just say that it's not just my mandate or I that found, had concerns about the way parental alienation is used.
28:47If you review decisions by the CEDAW committee, the committee overseeing the implementation of the Convention on the Elimination of Forms of Discrimination Against Women that Italy is party to,
29:01to, they have spoken about this. They have spoken also about the gender bias in justice systems on domestic violence.
29:08The Grevio that monitors the implementation of the Istanbul Convention in its report on Italy has spoken to this.
29:18The MSECV, which monitors the implementation of the Belim de Parra Convention in the Americas, has also condemned the weaponization of parental alienation and other pseudo-concepts.
29:31So, the fact that there is wide consensus has also helped me make this case. It confirms, basically, what we know.
29:40Thank you very much.
30:08e nello stesso modo anche nel nostro paese.
30:12Le chiedo se è vero che...
30:15Right, sorry.
30:16Let me tell you that whatever all you said can be confirmed
30:20because it has happened in Italy.
30:22If the World Health Organization has in fact reported
30:27as being fraudulent concepts,
30:30this concept of parental alienation,
30:32as they said that it is a wrong concept,
30:36a false concept with no scientific evidence whatsoever.
30:39However, tribunals and courts all over the world
30:42seem to be keep using it
30:44to pass judgment against mothers.
30:49So why is it the case?
30:50Why?
30:51They decide on the lives of many people
30:54and this is the case in many countries in the world.
30:56So why don't we decide to forbid the use of this term,
31:04of this concept, of this non-existent,
31:09unscientifical, non-scientifical concept
31:14forbidding the use of it,
31:16saying that it is so false
31:18because if they keep,
31:20if internationally courts at an international level
31:22keep using it,
31:23then there will be no end to it.
31:24And maybe,
31:25and my question is addressed to the current committee,
31:29maybe this committee might help
31:31our Dr. Al-Salem,
31:36providing her with all the data and information
31:39that we've been collecting over the past few years
31:41since that we are approaching the end of our work
31:45and maybe just to help her
31:46have a more complete framework
31:49and picture of the Italian situation.
31:52Yes, thank you very much, Ms. Ferrari.
31:57As for our committee,
31:58we've been carrying out a very important job
32:02under the leadership of Mr. Valente.
32:06We have an inquiry,
32:09a group that is carrying out an inquiry on the job
32:15and we will give Dr. Al-Salem,
32:19we'll provide her with the results of this research study
32:22and give her all the document that we have gathered
32:28as Ms. Valente and the other speaker rightly said.
32:36Mr. Cincy, yes, thank you, President, Madam President.
32:40I'd like to apologize
32:41because I have a prior engagement in another committee,
32:46so I will have to leave before the end,
32:48but I'd like to ask a question.
32:49You referred to this sort of superstitious attitude,
33:00the syndrome of parental alienation,
33:03and you referred to the sizable economic consequence
33:09that revolves around this supposedly scientific theory.
33:14My question to you is,
33:16do you feel a very strong pressure
33:18on the part of these lobbies
33:20because they are lobbying?
33:23It's a lobbying activity.
33:24These are international groups.
33:25Do you think they have exerted pressure
33:27on your kind of work as well,
33:29and what kind of pressure have they actually exerted?
33:33Quite a part of the fact
33:33that they tend to defend their own interests.
33:35Thank you.
33:39Yes, yes.
33:45So look, not many countries in their legal system
33:53may very clearly name or indicate a position
33:59on the use of parental alienation.
34:01Some of them, for example,
34:03including, for example, in the past,
34:05I don't know now, Spain, yeah,
34:08when it removed or the concept of parental alienation,
34:15it was still happening in the courts,
34:18which makes it much more difficult to fight, right?
34:20Because at the essence of the power of this concept
34:25is a very deeply ingrained gender bias,
34:29bias against women.
34:31is this tendency to believe that a mother's allegation
34:36is not sincere,
34:39that she's being manipulative, right?
34:41So it relies on this concept that women are manipulative,
34:46they don't say the truth.
34:49That's one.
34:50And the other element that makes this view,
34:56this approach so entrenched
34:57is that there is the belief in society,
35:02but also amongst law enforcement and the judiciary,
35:06that it is in the best interest of the child
35:09to always have contact with both parents,
35:13irrespective of what happens.
35:16And it's therefore astounding,
35:18and I have seen cases like this
35:20where the judge will accept
35:23that something happened to the child.
35:26He may, he or she may not even question
35:28whether the abuse happened,
35:31but the final assessment will still be,
35:34yes, but we have to not cut the child from his father.
35:39And this is a catastrophe, if you ask me.
35:42It flies in the face of all the rights of the child
35:47and their well-being.
35:51And, you know, because in a number of courts,
35:55when you use parental alienation allegations,
36:00it automatically inverts the table against the mother,
36:05in a number of countries,
36:07the lawyers will even tell the mother in court
36:10that she should not bring up any reports of abuse
36:19that the child might have suffered
36:20because she will automatically be accused
36:24of parent alienating the child.
36:27So imagine the mother is in an impossible situation.
36:30On one hand, she knows the child is being abused
36:34or she is abused,
36:36and the child, of course, suffers by extension
36:38of seeing his mother abuse.
36:41But on the other hand,
36:42she's scared to raise this issue
36:44because she's scared she will lose the child.
36:47Because what also courts do
36:48is they will punish the mother, as I said.
36:51What does that mean, actually?
36:52It means even taking away from her visitation rights
36:57or shared custody.
36:59So imagine the two fires a mother is in,
37:03these difficult choices that she has to make.
37:07Now, coming to the pressures by the lobbies.
37:11So when I first issued my report,
37:16there was a huge wave of attack
37:19by influential lobbies,
37:21which unfortunately also includes father lobbies.
37:25But also not only.
37:27It also includes, you know,
37:28the lawyers that benefit from parental alienation industry,
37:32as I call it,
37:33the trainers,
37:35everybody who basically benefits.
37:37They try to undermine the report.
37:39They try to discredit it.
37:42It's fine.
37:43That can happen.
37:45I'm very well aware
37:46that our reports can be controversial,
37:50especially on complex issues.
37:52Even on social media?
37:53Yes.
37:54Yes.
37:54But also they wrote letters
37:56to the Human Rights Council and to the UN.
37:58But the thing I want to mention, sir,
38:01which I think is very relevant for...
38:04I have seen that in any country
38:07that has made a very serious and sincere effort
38:12to re-examine the use of parental alienation.
38:16I'm aware of two, for example,
38:18Brazil and the UK.
38:21This lobby has tried to derail these efforts,
38:25really derail them.
38:27And so I think lawmakers,
38:30parliamentarians need to be aware of this,
38:33that you have to stand your grounds.
38:37And the best way really to also,
38:41you know, not give up
38:45is to give space to the voices of the victims,
38:50so women and children
38:51that have been at the receiving end,
38:54that have experienced the harm.
38:55And I have seen some parliaments actually
38:58do inquiries, independent inquiries.
39:01Again, the UK has actually been leading on this.
39:05The Domestic Violence Commissioner of the UK
39:07did an independent inquiry
39:09into, you know, family courts.
39:12And space was given to many women and children
39:16to say what has happened to them
39:20and how this was used against them.
39:21and I think this is a really good way to go about it.
39:25If you don't have this type of commissioner,
39:28maybe, I don't know, the child commissioner,
39:30but an independent position.
39:32I would like to ask our colleagues,
39:44those here and those connected remotely,
39:46if there are any questions.
39:47Otherwise, I'd like to avail myself of this opportunity
39:51since we have Dr. Al-Salam here with us
39:53because she deals with parental alienation,
39:55but not just that.
39:56she deals with a number of other subjects
40:00that deal with the women and women issues
40:07and violence related issues, et cetera,
40:09that we in this committee have been dealing with.
40:12One is linked to what we just mentioned,
40:14i.e. economic related violence.
40:16That is something that is very rarely tackled
40:20but heavily impacts the cases of parental alienation
40:25so that the proceedings tend to be very hard and difficult.
40:29And, you know, this brings us to the economic violence at large.
40:33And then it brings us to another topic
40:36that you have also tackled, i.e. online violence.
40:40maybe is a way of conclusion, if you can maybe.
40:44We can also briefly mention,
40:47considering your work,
40:48the work, amazing work that you've been carrying out,
40:52we can also talk about this
40:54because it has to do with gender related violence
40:57and not to mention the legal aspect
41:05and the comparison between good practices
41:07between different countries.
41:09So, my mandate was amongst the first, actually,
41:18to look specifically on online violence
41:22and violence perpetrated through digital technologies.
41:26So, my predecessor did one of,
41:29dedicated one of her reports, actually,
41:32to the issue of online violence.
41:33I think it was 2018 or 19.
41:37That was a groundbreaking report.
41:39because, until then,
41:41this issue of, again,
41:43the gendered experiences of women and girls
41:46of violence in online spaces
41:49had not been really discussed
41:52in a very sort of clear way.
41:56I have, of course, also continued to focus on that.
42:00Now, as you all know,
42:03those that are particularly affected by online violence
42:07are women that are visible in society
42:10and that speak their mind on issues that are important to women.
42:15So, that includes journalists,
42:16that includes women politicians,
42:18that includes human rights defenders.
42:24So, and the problem, of course, with online violence,
42:27it can sometimes start online, but then materialize offline.
42:32So, threats online can actually lead to real violence offline.
42:37In addition to what we call character assassination,
42:41undermining the credibility of the woman in question.
42:45And then you also have, of course,
42:47women that, let's say, don't conform to the gender norms
42:51that society has for women.
42:54So, that can include women that are, for example, lesbians.
42:57It can also include, you know,
43:03women that don't want to be restricted
43:05by the rules that society has.
43:07Now, since I became rapporteur,
43:10I have continued to focus on this.
43:14And I have in my report to the Human Rights Council in June
43:17looked at artificial intelligence
43:21and other kind of digital technology-perpetrated violence,
43:28like deep fakes,
43:30and also pornography,
43:32which I consider as a form of online violence against women.
43:40Pornography and all this thing that we see,
43:44like deep fakes,
43:45is very harmful not just for women and girls,
43:49but for society at large.
43:50because it allows the continued sexualization
43:54and commodification of the bodies of women and girls.
44:00And it gives the impression
44:03or it pushes society to normalize
44:07harmful sexual action towards women and girls,
44:13whether it's buying sex from women and girls,
44:19or also engaging with them
44:29in degrading and violent treatment
44:35because this is what pornography does.
44:38Pornography perpetuates
44:40and I worry really very much in this situation
44:49about young boys
44:51because nowadays young boys get their sex education
44:56mainly from pornography.
44:59And pornography, which is a business model
45:01that wants to always come up with something more creative
45:04and more addictive and more alluring,
45:07is becoming more and more violent.
45:10And therefore it's not a coincidence
45:12that in a number of countries,
45:14including European countries,
45:16we have seen an incredible increase
45:20in adolescent boys becoming perpetrators
45:24of serious violence against girls.
45:28So we're talking about rape, gang rape,
45:31and it's to be expected if they see,
45:37if they get their education about sexual relationships
45:40from pornography.
45:42So this is, in my view,
45:44something that countries have to deal with.
45:48You will not be able to achieve gender equality
45:52if society believes that it's very normal
45:56to buy women female bodies
46:00and to solicit women and girls in sex
46:05and to expect that they are there to please men
46:11and to just basically do that.
46:16Madam President,
46:17you were talking about OnlyFans earlier over lunch.
46:21I'm very concerned also about these kind of platforms
46:24trying to push girls, adolescent girls,
46:29into this avenue.
46:35and giving the impression to women and girls
46:38that the only viable thing for them economically
46:43is to actually engage in prostitution
46:47and that they have to also change their bodies
46:54because, of course, porn pornifies and sexualizes women
46:58and so that they have to physically appear
47:05and change themselves in such a way to appeal to men.
47:09So this is an issue.
47:12I'm afraid there isn't sufficient discussion on pornography
47:16and on this kind of online violence.
47:20And the measures taken by countries,
47:23I feel, are still insufficient, in my view.
47:26Thank you very much, Madam.
47:33If we have no further questions,
47:36I wish to thank you again for agreeing to come.
47:41Madam Arim Al-Salem, UN Special Reporter,
47:44thank you again for coming.
47:46Thank you on behalf of the members of our committee.
47:49Thank you very much for your hard work.
47:51I now declare the hearing closed
47:56and I would just ask you quickly to stay a little longer
48:01for an additional meeting.
48:03Thank you.
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48:19Thank you.
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