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Paddy Gower Has Issues Season 2 Episode 1
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00:00All right, we are back, and hello Kiwis, I'm Paddy Gower, and I have got issues.
00:14On this show, we investigate issues, big and small, that are important to all of us.
00:19And tonight, Tom Phillips disappeared into the bush with his kids four years ago.
00:24Tonight, for the first time, we hear from his family.
00:27And the price of butter in this country is hurting us all.
00:31Karen finds out why, and gets you cheaper butter tomorrow.
00:47Tonight, my issue is with Tom Phillips, the fugitive father who has taken the missing marakopa kits.
00:53Now, like many Kiwis, I worry about them out in the wet, cold bush for their fourth winter.
00:58Nobody wants them out there, away from loved ones, away from school, healthcare, and everything else.
01:04Let's get this straight.
01:05Tom Phillips is no hero.
01:07This has gone on way too long.
01:10I want him to bring those kids back.
01:12Their names are Jaden, Maverick, and Ember, and they've been gone for coming up four years.
01:17So tonight, we are going to take a practical step to try and get Tom Phillips to bring them back.
01:24His close family want him to bring the kids back too.
01:28And we have the first ever interview with them.
01:31They have done it for a simple reason.
01:33They believe that Tom Phillips will see it.
01:36It comes from his sister, and there is a message from his mum.
01:41It is straight up.
01:42Tom Phillips, bring the marakopa kids back.
01:45Now, tonight, we're joined by my friend, one of my journalist mentors, investigative journalist, Tony Wall.
01:51And Karen O'Leary, the community investigator, is back.
01:54Yes.
01:55Now, coming to you first, Wallo, you've been around a long time.
01:59You've investigated a lot of yarns, including this marakopa yarn.
02:02Yeah, yeah.
02:03I've been out there multiple times over the last four years.
02:06Every time there's a sighting, I'm the first one dispatched out there to go and have a bit of a dig around.
02:12Yeah.
02:12Yeah, and how does it stack up against other yarns that you've done in your career?
02:17It's really unique.
02:18There's been nothing like it.
02:20Just this image of this man alone against nature with his kids and able to avoid the authorities and stuff for so long.
02:27And Karen, what do you make of it?
02:29Well, I guess for me, as someone that's obviously a teacher, I just really worry for those kids and what they're missing out on, I reckon.
02:35And Tony, there's something that we want Tom Phillips to see tonight.
02:38Now, if he's out in the bush, you know, can he see it?
02:42How could he end up seeing this?
02:43Well, when he first went missing, he wouldn't have been able to because there was no cell phone coverage out there in Armada Corpo.
02:48But since then, they've put in some cell towers and there's actually some pretty good coverage out there now.
02:54So he will be wired in.
02:56He'll be, you know, he'll be able to see it.
02:58Yeah, he could get three now.
02:59And there could be other ways as well, through people helping him.
03:02Yeah, people that are helping him, obviously, they'll be able to tell him what's being said tonight and, you know, the pleas and stuff.
03:09So, yeah, it'll reach his ears.
03:10There's no doubt.
03:11Well, let's get on with it.
03:12It'll reach his eyes as well.
03:14Well, I went down country to catch up with Tom Phillips' sister, Rozzy.
03:18Rozzy, New Zealand has been talking about the Phillips family for four years, but we hardly know anything, really, about your family.
03:29What's the Phillips family like?
03:31Your typical Kiwi farming family.
03:34Yep, just dirt on the boots, hardworking, good sorts of people.
03:40We're here to talk about your brother, Tom Phillips.
03:46What sort of person is he?
03:51Obviously, I can only talk to what he was till 2021.
03:56But before that, and before he disappeared, was that he was a top man.
04:00He was a good brother.
04:02He's my younger brother.
04:04He's got an amazing sense of humour.
04:06He's super witty.
04:09Has deadly one-liners.
04:11Loves his music.
04:13Loves his kids.
04:14Loves his family.
04:16Loves his dear stalking.
04:18And amazing with his hands.
04:21Amazing builder.
04:22He was a fencer for a long time.
04:25And he's just very clever.
04:26He was always super clever as a young kid and enterprising.
04:31Have you had any contact with your brother, Rosie, since he disappeared?
04:36No, I haven't.
04:37I emailed, texted, tried to call his phone for a few months following his disappearance.
04:44Variety of messages.
04:48Nice and not so nice.
04:50And finally gave up, because while I was sending messages, I never got any replies.
04:57Why are you talking now after being quiet for four years?
05:03In the hope that just maybe, maybe he's going to see this.
05:08And maybe he's going to get to see that he can come home and that we are here for him and it might just be okay.
05:21So what do you want to say to him?
05:26There's a lot of love.
05:28And there's a lot of support.
05:31And we're ready to help you walk through what you need to walk through.
05:37So.
05:37I miss you.
05:46And I miss being part of your life.
05:51And I really want to see you and the kids and be part of your lives again.
05:56What do you want to say to Jada, Maverick and Ember?
06:21I'm proud to be your auntie.
06:28I took a lot of joy in being a part of your lives.
06:33And I'd love to see you again and be part of your lives again.
06:39And know for myself that all is truly well in your world.
06:45Your mum has wanted you to do this.
06:48Yep.
06:49And she's got a note that she wants you to read to Tom.
06:58Yep.
07:02So these words are from...
07:07From a mother's heart.
07:09Just to her son.
07:12Yep.
07:13Tom, I feel really sad that you thought you had to do this.
07:20Not considering how much we love you and can support you.
07:25It hurts every time I see photos of the children and of you and see some of your stuff that is still here.
07:35Thinking what could have been if you had not gone away.
07:38Jada, Maverick, Maverick, Ember, I love you so much and really miss being part of your lives.
07:53Every day I wake up and hope that today will be the day that you all come home.
07:59Describe Jada.
08:04She's gorgeous.
08:06Yep, she's full on and spirited.
08:10And Maverick?
08:12Maverick's quiet one.
08:14He's a clever little guy, loved doing his homework and is reading his books.
08:20And then the little one, Ember?
08:21Ember's absolutely adorable.
08:24She's just absolutely gorgeous.
08:28And there's no day that goes by that I don't think about all four of them.
08:36You keep Christmas presents for the kids.
08:38Yep.
08:39And every year, every Christmas, I pull them out of their place and I put them under my tree.
08:48What sort of bushman was your brother Tom?
08:51Obviously pretty good if he can be doing what he's doing for this long.
08:55We did a lot of pig hunting growing up, all of us as kids with dad in the native bush.
09:01And then Tom also, when he was away at boarding school, did part of his education.
09:07There was a six-month outdoor survival skills programme.
09:11I've done a bit of deer hunting with him and he's just, you know,
09:14very aware of all of his surroundings and everything that's going on and what plants are good to eat.
09:19He was eating watercress out of the creeks that we were crossing, that kind of stuff.
09:23And I think kawakawa.
09:25Do you worry about the kids out in the bush, whether they're warm, these sorts of things?
09:31The hard thing about not knowing is that we don't know how good of a nest or hut he's got.
09:43But we do know that he is capable of and is a good builder.
09:48And I don't believe that he would have the children suffering.
09:52Do you think he's being helped?
09:53Part of me hopes he is being helped so that he has people he can rely on to help him.
10:02But at the same time, I'll be very angry with anyone that is helping him and not telling us how they're doing.
10:12You know, he has been accused of an armed robbery.
10:16Is that something you ever expected to potentially see from your brother?
10:20No.
10:21And in terms of the challenges when he comes back, that's the kind of thing that he'll have to face, isn't it?
10:27Yep.
10:29But you're saying to him you're prepared to help him face these sorts of challenges?
10:36Yep.
10:37He's family.
10:38We're family.
10:38He's still my brother.
10:39You know, why has he done this, Rosie?
10:46I would like to go into details about the background of a few things.
10:52But at the moment, it matters before the courts.
10:55That's not possible.
10:58I would like New Zealand to know that when he left in December 2021 with his three children,
11:07he did have legal day-to-day care of those three children.
11:13And it's also publicly on the record with the news and police that that custody now sits with Oranga Tamariki and they have made arrangements for if and when the children are located as to where they will go.
11:26Without going into detail for legal reasons, but is that something that will be motivating Tom to stay in the bush?
11:34Would you encourage the fact that kids are going to go into state care when they come back?
11:42I would imagine so, yes.
11:44Yep.
11:44Would you be prepared to help the police, to help Oranga Tamariki, to help the authorities broker some kind of deal if it was at all possible?
11:56Would you try and help some sort of negotiated return?
12:01Yeah, we have cooperated with the police and I've offered to help where I can if there was an opportunity to help.
12:12Absolutely.
12:14What would it be like to see them all again?
12:17Yeah, it'd be amazing.
12:22It'd be very, very special.
12:26And what would you say to your brother?
12:30I don't know if I'd hug him first or kick him first.
12:34But I love you.
12:35Would definitely be one of the first things.
12:40Yeah, full credit to Rosie there who really put herself out there.
12:43Yeah, very complex family situation and thank you to her and the depth of feeling really came through to me while I was interviewing her.
12:50I didn't show it there but she talked about feeling betrayed by her brother with him going into the bush like that.
12:56She really has deep feelings there.
12:58Now we contact the kid's mum, we talked to one of her older daughters, she wasn't keen to be part of this
13:04and we are going to speak to the police later in the show.
13:07Karen, what did you make of that interview?
13:08Oh, I mean, like you said, it was just really heartfelt.
13:09I really felt for Rosie, you know, like I'm an auntie and I can't imagine what it'll be like.
13:13You've got your nieces and nephews one day and then the next day they've just vanished.
13:17Yeah, and Tony, some new details there about Tom Phillips' skill as a bushman.
13:23There, you know, he had some sort of outdoor education.
13:26Yeah, so he went to St Paul's famous Waikato private school and they have a programme,
13:32and I think it's the tihoi programme where the kids go out into the bush for like several months at a time
13:37and learn survival skills.
13:39So he's learnt these skills from a very young age.
13:41Yes, and some new details as well from his sister there that he is a highly skilled builder
13:46and may well have built some sort of hut or as she calls it, a nest in the bush.
13:51Yeah, well that's always been the question, where's he staying?
13:53And, you know, that could be it.
13:55He could be building structures, maybe multiple structures in different parts of the bush
13:58so he can move between them.
14:00And Tony, you spend a night in the bush.
14:03Yes.
14:04For this.
14:05The Maricopa bush.
14:07What was that like?
14:09Well, I didn't want to do it, Paddy, but you made me.
14:13I've got zero bush skills.
14:14Zero.
14:15So, yeah, it was a bit of an eye-opener, I have to say.
14:18We'd better take a look at this.
14:23If I was trying to hide from somebody, this is the kind of place that I'd be doing it.
14:28He's the hide-and-seek champion of New Zealand.
14:34Three years running.
14:38Kia ora.
14:39How's it going?
14:40Yeah, good.
14:40Tony.
14:41Yeah, g'day, mate.
14:42How's it going, Tony?
14:43I'm now.
14:43Shall we get into it?
14:44Yep.
14:45Great.
14:48How are you feeling about camping in there overnight?
14:51I'm a bit nervous.
14:51I haven't done this since I was a boy scout.
14:53So, what can I expect in there, do you reckon?
14:56It's quite gnarly in this area, eh?
14:57If you're out here a couple of k's and you fall into a hole, that might be it for you,
15:01you know?
15:02Hopefully we can find some dry wood, otherwise it's going to be a cold night.
15:05Yeah.
15:08So, do you reckon after almost four years, Tom Phillips and the kids could still be out
15:12here somewhere, in this bush?
15:13Oh, absolutely.
15:14I mean, probably living good too.
15:16There's food resources here, relatively abundant.
15:18It's just, how strong is your will to survive, I suppose, eh?
15:22How would this do for a place to spend the night?
15:26Yeah, man, under the stars, it's perfect.
15:36I was watching you, I was thinking, man, that job blows.
15:38How hard is it to survive in winter in the New Zealand bush?
15:46I don't think hard is the word.
15:48Wet might be the word.
15:50The challenge is then not as hard to survive, as in a physical sense, but as hard to survive
15:58mentally, because no one wants to be sleeping in the rain.
16:00I mean, if you've got a good shelter established, which I assume that family has, then you'll
16:08be fine.
16:19Yeah, that's a nice fire.
16:21What do you love about being out here?
16:23I love the peace and quiet, just the freedom, you know?
16:25I feel like you can leave all of your life behind, just momentarily, put down all your
16:31responsibilities, come out here, and just be present with your surroundings, you know?
16:39Oh, cheers, mate.
16:40Cheers.
16:42What do you think about Tom Phillips going bush with his kids?
16:46Myself, personally, I probably think there's potentially more danger outside living in the
16:53city and stuff than there is out here.
16:55I guess, you know, people would say the kids should be in school.
16:58Definitely they're missing out, eh?
17:00They're missing out.
17:01I've always wondered whether the police could use thermal imaging to try and find them.
17:06I've actually brought a thermal imaging camera with me, so do you reckon we should have a
17:09bit of a game of hide and seek?
17:11You go and hide and I'll find you.
17:12All right.
17:14How's about that?
17:17I used to have a thermal scope mounted to my gun, and oh man, the technology is just
17:22unreal.
17:23But they are better used in an open area, because it's a heat detection device, you know?
17:29It's not an x-ray machine.
17:32We got you at 15 metres there.
17:33Tony, what are you doing?
17:34Are you taking a leak?
17:36Righto.
17:36My view is probably is 50, 60 metres, and currently not picking anything up.
17:45It's crazy thick in here.
17:48Man, he's real good at this.
17:50There, look, there's something there.
17:52Oh, look, it's a rat running up the tree.
17:54Tony, I think that's Tony there.
17:59Found you.
18:01Mean to say, Tony.
18:02If I was looking for you and you were a wanted man, I'd say you would have kept yourself pretty
18:08well hidden.
18:09Do you reckon Tom and the kids are sitting around a fire just like this, maybe a couple
18:14of ridges over?
18:15Or are they sitting inside a house in front of the fireplace laughing at us?
18:19Well, do you reckon he might be at home watching the rugby, eh?
18:21Yeah.
18:21I don't think I've ever slept in the bush with no cover before, just the tree canopy.
18:31A little bit nervous about how it's going to go.
18:33It's getting down to four degrees tonight, but I think I've got enough layers on to keep
18:37me fine.
18:38I just hope some rats don't crawl over my face during the night.
18:42I reckon like Tom and that on nights like this, they probably quite enjoy it.
18:46It's good, but as soon as the wind and the rain comes up, that's when it starts getting
18:50miserable.
18:51Yeah.
19:03Hey, now.
19:03Hey, morning Tony.
19:05How are you feeling this morning?
19:06That was cold as.
19:09Yeah.
19:10From about 3am, the wind came up.
19:12Just got into all the nooks and crannies and freezing.
19:16Freezing.
19:17I actually had a dream that I walked a little bit down that way and found a house with a heat pump.
19:27No visits from any rats last night, eh?
19:29No, I didn't hear any.
19:36I actually just really hope those kids aren't out here all the time, you know?
19:40You know, four years out here and this, that would be pretty brutal.
19:44Yeah, I agree, but I think you did all right.
19:46How do you think you did in this overnight stay?
19:48Well, I'm a bit of a city slicker.
19:50I'm no Tom Phillips, eh?
19:51And one night, probably my limit.
19:55I could tell you I'd live out here for the rest of my life, but taking everything into account, I'm married, I've got a daughter.
20:04You know, I want them to get the most out of life.
20:08As much as I love the outdoors and all that it has to offer, it's not everything, eh?
20:16OK, he woke up dreaming of a heat pump and after spending a night out in the bush, you see how hard it is to kind of track people with the heat stuff and all of those sorts of things.
20:30But do you think that Tom is getting help, like you said earlier on?
20:34What makes you think that?
20:35Yeah, well, there's no doubt.
20:36I mean, you know, he's got bush skills, sure, but no one can stay out in that year after year, winter after winter.
20:43It's hard, it's brutal.
20:45You can have an accident, you can injure yourself.
20:47So, yeah, he'll be getting help and he'll be spending some time indoors, I believe.
20:50Yeah, all right, well, coming up, what do the Maricopa locals think of Tom Phillips?
20:55And I'm going to put to the police the idea of a negotiation that was so important to his sister, Rosie.
21:02And Karen's Futter investigation is going to get very, very special results.
21:06Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues.
21:16And tonight we are investigating the disappearance of Tom Phillips, who took his three kids into the bush four years ago and is still out there.
21:23And now it is time to go behind the issue.
21:29All right, as of today, Jada is 12 years old.
21:33Maverick has turned 10 years old and Ember is now nine years old.
21:39And police have said publicly that Tom's motive for his disappearance has to do with the custody of his three kids.
21:46It is, quote, a custody issue, end quote.
21:49Now, it is important to note here that the family court matters involving children cannot be reported on.
21:55Once something is in family court, it is suppressed.
21:58And there is a lot in this case that can't be talked about.
22:01And here is the kid's mum, Catherine.
22:04Now, her kids are now four years older, four years older than when she last saw them.
22:09We approached her through one of her older children, and she did not want to be involved in the show.
22:13But she has previously said, quote, I just want them to come back.
22:17They need to be home.
22:18They don't belong out there.
22:20I had faith in our system.
22:22And I feel like such a fool now.
22:24It has failed my children.
22:27And this is important.
22:28In May 2023, there was a bank robbery, and witnesses have said a shot was fired during the escape, and it is alleged that Tom was involved.
22:39Now, since Tom disappeared into the bush, custody has changed.
22:43According to the police, the kids are now officially under the custody of Oranga Tamariki.
22:49And in my interview, Rosie said this is a key reason why Tom Phillips is staying bush.
22:57Now, aggravated robbery carries a maximum sentence of 14 years in jail, and if proven, Tom Phillips will likely have to do time.
23:05This and the custody issue are, of course, the challenges that Rosie has promised to help him face.
23:10Now, Rosie was open to the idea of some kind of deal.
23:15And given Tom's motive as the custody issue, maybe, just maybe, this could involve assurances about the kids.
23:21Maybe it could even involve an independent negotiator coming in and working between the different sides.
23:27And this is the last known sighting of Tom Phillips and the kids, just north of Maricopa, 10 months ago.
23:36So, where are they now, and what do locals there think?
23:40Well, Tony Wall, Wallo, went there to find out.
23:50Four years ago, most Kiwis had never heard of Maricopa, home to just 42 residents, and a haven for whitebaiting, fishing, hunting and farming.
24:02Never tire of coming into this beautiful location.
24:06I think the locals probably tire of seeing me at pit.
24:09But, yeah, it's sort of become the centre of a worldwide story, really.
24:15This is home to us, and honestly, it's beautiful.
24:19We love the place.
24:21And when you go other places now and mention that you're from Maricopa, do people...
24:26That's the first thing people ask, is, do we know where he is?
24:31So, what do you make of all this Tom Phillips business, and what the attention that it's brought down on the town?
24:35You know, it's horrible.
24:37Did police initially make people feel a little bit like they were helping him somehow, maybe, or, you know, hiding him?
24:44Well, that's the impression I get, is that we're all hiding him, you know.
24:47I mean, you come back from town, and you get stopped and searched.
24:51You go into town, you get stopped and searched.
24:54Yeah, it makes you feel like a criminal for hiding him.
24:58And that's not actually what I think anybody's doing.
25:02They just don't know where he is.
25:05Local hunters haven't seen him in the bush, either.
25:08The bros have been over the river hunting many times over these years, three years plus.
25:13And they've never come across Tom Phillips, they've never sighted any of it, never come across any clothing or anything.
25:21Only pigs.
25:23Tom Phillips wasn't actually living in Maricopa when he first went missing, abandoning his car on a nearby beach.
25:30He was living an hour away, here in Otorahanga.
25:33I stopped for a cuppa and got chatting to Heather and Murray Lowenthal.
25:38And do you know the Phillips family?
25:40Yes, we do, yes, quite well.
25:42I'm concerned for the kids, really.
25:45I hate to think what might have happened to them, and the fact that they haven't had any education during that time.
25:51They say it's time for him to bring the kids home.
25:54Well, yes, because, you know, the children are cousins to our great-grandchildren.
26:00And it's had to affect them in some big way.
26:06Is it frustrating?
26:07Like, why can't they find them out there in the bush?
26:10They're cunning.
26:11They've got to have some help, I reckon.
26:14Yeah, it's incredible that it's lasted so long, really.
26:22An hour north of Maricopa is the remote settlement of Te Maika.
26:27It's a place the police have searched.
26:30We've got the tide running on the right direction.
26:41He's taking us across the Kaffia Harbour on his barge.
26:44It's a spot for the summer visitors to come.
26:49And you've seen their batches.
26:50That's their palaces.
26:53Te Maika is so isolated.
26:55There are no roads in, no permanent residents.
26:58And the only way to get here is by boat, or possibly on foot.
27:01Once they're in that scrub there, that pretty well joins up with the Maricopa bush.
27:10I feel quite privileged to come here.
27:11It's not a place that many New Zealanders have seen, I can tell you.
27:14It's a really remote little bay, cute old-style kiwi batches right on the water.
27:19It's like a trip back in time, and a perfect place for Tom and the kids to hide out for a while if they wanted to.
27:25Hello?
27:31Anybody home?
27:32Hello?
27:33Anyone in there?
27:34I tell you what, I reckon that's the perfect spot here.
27:37We've got sleeping bags, bedrolls.
27:40There's a little kitchen.
27:42A few supplies, bits and pieces.
27:44Looks like someone's actually been camping out in there.
27:46Police came here a few months ago and searched these places.
27:49Didn't find anything, but who's to say, Tom and that weren't here for a while, and then moved on.
27:55They put up a reward, $80,000, and they didn't find it.
28:00A little bit fascinated how his determination just keeps him out there, really.
28:05It's a long time.
28:10Nice one, Warlow.
28:11Nice one.
28:12Now, after all the investigation and all the time spent on this story,
28:15mate, what do you think of Tom Phillips?
28:18Well, I have some quite strong feelings.
28:20I think he's just dragged this out way too long.
28:23You know, he's depriving his kids at the end of the day,
28:26and it's time to bring them back.
28:28And bringing them back, what needs to be done to do that, in your view?
28:32You know this case well.
28:33I think the only way that this is going to come to a conclusion
28:36is by some kind of negotiated deal, some kind of negotiation.
28:40All right, well, that's exactly what I'm going to ask the New Zealand police about,
28:43and I get the chance to do just that when I speak to them after this break.
28:48And Karen is willing to buy scones, eat scones, and watch Nicola Willis eat scones
28:53if it means getting you cheaper butter.
28:56Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues.
29:06Now, tonight we are investigating the disappearance of Tom Phillips with his three kids.
29:11So many questions that Kiwis have about this case.
29:13And now to help us with those, I've got Detective Senior Sergeant Andrew Saunders,
29:18who is in charge of the hunt for Tom Phillips.
29:20As Detective Senior Sergeant, you've just watched the interview
29:23and that message from Tom Phillips' sister and his own mum.
29:27What did you make of it?
29:29Actually, I found it very helpful.
29:31We've been working with the family for a long time.
29:34We've always been interested in them putting the message out in public,
29:38so we're very grateful this has happened.
29:41And what did you take from what they said to Tom Phillips?
29:45What did you take from it?
29:47I think the message Ros was putting out, we echo that.
29:52We want this to end safely.
29:54We want Tom and those that are helping him to actually,
29:58let's work out a negotiation and let's get everyone out of there safely.
30:03And we're willing to negotiate with anyone that actually is in helping Tom
30:09and in communication with him.
30:11Right, so your message essentially is to those people helping him
30:15who will be watching this tonight is that police are open to a deal,
30:20to some form of negotiation, to working with them and the Phillips family
30:24to get him out of there.
30:27Absolutely.
30:28And you seem convinced that people are helping Tom Phillips
30:31and obviously many others are.
30:33What is your message to those people who you feel have been helping him?
30:38So the people that are helping Tom, they need to talk to us
30:43or they need to reach out to someone that they trust to communicate with us
30:47and we can start the board rolling with getting that negotiation happening.
30:51Right, so you're basically saying let's bring in some kind of middle person
30:55potentially to work between Tom Phillips and his supporters
30:58and the New Zealand Police.
31:00Well, we're happy to talk to those people directly
31:03but they may wish to talk, have someone else,
31:07some other party present to work with us.
31:10And the question on every New Zealander's lips really is
31:15why is Tom Phillips so hard to catch?
31:19It's the environment out there.
31:22It's incredibly challenging.
31:23And given the concerns we have,
31:28it's not just a simple case of sending plenty of people in the bush
31:33to search for him.
31:35We're very measured about any investigation we conduct in that area.
31:41Finally, Detective Senior Sergeant,
31:43do you have a message for Tom Phillips?
31:47It's probably echoing what Ross said.
31:51Everything can be worked through.
31:53But, you know, he's got to have some endgame.
31:58It's been long enough now and it's just time to get those children out
32:03and let them get on with their lives.
32:05And Tom can deal with whatever he needs to deal with and then continue.
32:09And just finally, Detective Senior Sergeant,
32:11in all this time,
32:13the people helping him have not wanted to engage with the police.
32:17What do you think has changed now?
32:19What would make them want to talk to you now?
32:21Well, I'd like to think, A, the passage of time.
32:25I want them to think about the children
32:26and actually take out from Roz's message.
32:31You know, the family actually want to see them back out.
32:35Want to see them out.
32:36So you think the people helping Tom Phillips
32:38may see this message from Rozzy and Tom Phillips' mum
32:41and see that, look, the family want them out as well?
32:46Well, I'd like to think so.
32:47I'd like to think they'll finally say enough's enough
32:50and we work towards a safe resolution.
32:54All right.
32:54Thank you very much, Detective Senior Sergeant Andrew Saunders,
32:58for that interview.
33:01Well, Wala, you said that deal and negotiation was the only way to go.
33:04What do you make of that development?
33:05Yeah, that's actually a major development.
33:07I've never heard the police say that so firmly before,
33:10that they are ready.
33:11They're ready to sit down and negotiate with this guy
33:13or his proxies.
33:15So, yeah, that's great.
33:17That's great news.
33:18All right.
33:18Awesome.
33:18Well, tonight, my issue was with Tom Phillips,
33:22as you saw there,
33:22who has disappeared for four years with his three kids.
33:25Now, when I have issues,
33:26I aim to be constructive and put forward solutions.
33:30And for me, it goes like this.
33:31I've been constructive by showing a message to Tom Phillips
33:34from his sister and his mum.
33:35I've been constructive by asking police
33:38if they'd be willing to enter into negotiations as well.
33:41And as you just saw, they will.
33:43Now, Tom Phillips is going to see this
33:45or he is going to have it shown to him by those helping him
33:48and the solution here is that he listens to his mum,
33:52that he listens to his sister,
33:53and he brings those kids home.
33:55And that message goes to those helping him as well.
33:57There are ways this can be done safely
34:00and there are ways that this can be negotiated.
34:04So do the right thing.
34:06Bring Jaden, Maverick and Ember back.
34:09All right.
34:10Coming up, it's time for Karen O'Leary's investigation.
34:13Who is actually making money on butter?
34:15Who is controlling the price?
34:17And can Karen really get us out of here, doesn't he?
34:25Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues,
34:27where we are moving from Tom Phillips and Marikopa
34:30to Karen O'Leary's investigation.
34:33And O'Leary, I am so stoked to have you back.
34:36This is so exciting.
34:37It's great to be back.
34:37It's a great moment.
34:38What are you investigating today?
34:41What issue?
34:42OK, well, obviously, you know,
34:43to work out what was grinding the gears of New Zealanders,
34:45I went live on stuff and the biggest issue out there
34:48is actually finding that Black Panther down in Christchurch.
34:51The Black Panther in Christchurch.
34:52It's a big cat, Karen.
34:54Well, bit to differ.
34:55Anyway, a very close second was obviously the price of butter.
34:59I mean, we've got five million cows in this country.
35:02Why on earth are we paying ten bucks a block?
35:04Well, OK, newsflash.
35:06But what are you going to do about it?
35:08Well, I'm just going to do something for all of New Zealand
35:10and lower the price of butter.
35:13Lower the price of butter.
35:14That's a big call, Wallo.
35:15You've had a few achievements in your glorious career.
35:18Have you ever heard of anyone lowering the price of the achievement?
35:20I've never had an achievement that big.
35:22You know, I want to see this.
35:23Well, here, take a look.
35:26We're a nation built on butter.
35:28Every year we spread, slice and swallow 66 million blocks of it.
35:33But there's an issue.
35:34It's getting expensive.
35:35The price is ramping up faster than my cholesterol,
35:37which is actually ramping down because I can't afford butter.
35:40I'm here at Beaufort & Coe Cafe on Auckland's famous North Shore,
35:44where Buttergate is really affecting business.
35:48Dairy.
35:49Dairy's our big issue.
35:50It is the biggest cost for us in a product that we use all the time.
35:55Our scones especially use a lot of dairy.
35:58Butter and cheese are our biggest ones.
36:00And the price increases in the last year has just been astronomical.
36:04How much does it cost you to make a scone?
36:08It has certainly jumped.
36:09And for us now, we need to charge $8.90 for a scone.
36:13For a scone?
36:13Which we would never do.
36:14No.
36:15We would never do.
36:15We're charging $6.50 at the moment.
36:17Yeah.
36:17And that's about as much as we can push it.
36:20I mean, have you ever thought about using, like, margarine or, like, you know, your Olivani?
36:25I'm not sure we can continue talking anymore.
36:28Absolutely not.
36:29No, it has to be real stuff.
36:30It's got to be the real stuff.
36:31Absolutely, yeah.
36:33The real stuff can be found just off State Highway 1, where Richard and his 380 cows are pumping
36:37out thousands of litres of liquid gold a day.
36:40So are farmers milking it?
36:41Well, we get $10 per kilo of milk solids at the moment.
36:45Okay.
36:45And so if a butter is 500 grams, it'd be roughly $5 worth of our milk in that respect.
36:51Yeah.
36:52How much do you actually pay for a block of butter?
36:54We're actually high-butter users in our family, and we have to buy it as well, and we'll watch
36:58the price go up.
36:59I mean, do you get kind of mates' rates?
37:00No, it'd be nice if you want to give us one, actually.
37:02But no, no, we don't.
37:03We buy butter the same way everyone else does.
37:06Yep.
37:06And same for the front one.
37:08Perfect.
37:08Can't you just make butter cheaper?
37:11Oh, it'd be nice, wouldn't it?
37:12But, look, you know, 95% of the milk that we sell goes overseas, and so we're subject
37:18to the international prices, you know, via various options and the likes.
37:22We're not making a huge margin on this at all.
37:24We are making some profit this year, which is great.
37:26It allows us to pay off a little bit of debt and also provision for the years where we
37:30don't make so much money.
37:32For Kevin, this is one of those years.
37:34The last year has been the toughest.
37:37Like, it's so hard, and people do say that all the time, but, like, it is really.
37:42Like, it rules your life.
37:43You literally don't sleep.
37:44What do you want me to do about it?
37:45The biggest thing for me is, if this is true, and it should be that price, then, like, maybe
37:52there needs to be a bit more transparency, because someone must be making money.
37:55What's the point?
37:55Yes, who is making the money?
37:58I tell you what, Kevin, leave it with me.
37:59Yes.
38:00I'm on the job.
38:01Yes, who is making the money, and why isn't it cheaper for Kiwis?
38:07Now, look, this is exciting.
38:08In our first season, Paddy, he was the only one allowed to walk and talk in front of these
38:12screens.
38:12But guess what?
38:13It's my turn.
38:14It's time to go Behind the Issue.
38:16They've allowed me to walk and put anything I want on the screen.
38:22But look, we're not here to talk about unicorns.
38:24I'm here to talk about butter.
38:26Kevin's seen his wholesale butter blocks increase by almost $6 in the last five years.
38:31So what's caused the skyrocket?
38:34We can put some of the blame on the huge international appetite for our dairy products.
38:37This planet absolutely froths our dairy, with New Zealand butter heating all around the
38:42world every week.
38:43The price for Kiwi dairy products is set at the Global Dairy Trade Auction, where butter
38:48is sold by the tonne every two weeks.
38:50Over the last year, the demand has increased, and it's driving up the price.
38:54When big players like China and the Middle East are willing to pay a premium for our products,
38:58local prices are forced to keep up.
39:00With 95% of our dairy sold abroad, our domestic butter business has to barter with the big guns.
39:06The latest Global Dairy Trade Auction saw New Zealand butter sales average out at around
39:10$13,000 a tonne.
39:11Last year, this figure was closer to $11,000, and in 2020, it sat at around $5,500.
39:18That's a 142% increase in five years.
39:23It's brutal for buyers, but as Richard knows, it's not bad news for our farmers.
39:28But shouldn't the country that produces the product get a discount?
39:31Well, often that's just a pipe dream.
39:33The Dutch are the fourth largest exporter of refined petroleum, but their petrol prices
39:38are amongst the highest in Europe.
39:41It's like Germans.
39:42They pay more for their domestically produced cars than foreign buyers do.
39:45And even though Australia ships 60% of their beef offshore, it's around 15% cheaper for Aussies
39:51to buy Australian meat in the UK and Japan than it is at home.
39:55It turns out the system of capitalism is built in such a way that we can't get a discount
40:01on the products our own country makes.
40:03And look, I mean, I'm very good at my job, but I'm not sure that I can dismantle capitalism,
40:08not other than the next 10 minutes of the show anyway.
40:11So instead, there is one other thing that affects these prices, and it's called the supermarket duopoly.
40:19Patty, I think it's time for a break-up.
40:24Whoa, whoa, whoa.
40:25I thought you were doing butter.
40:26Now you're taking down the duopoly.
40:28Are you going to be able to reduce the price of butter like you said you would, Karen O'Leary?
40:35Patty Gower, you have my word.
40:37Honestly, I'm going to do it.
40:38OK, well, I'll watch out for that, because coming up,
40:41Karen goes to the very, very, very top to get a better butter deal for New Zealand.
40:46Now, welcome back to Patty Gower Has Issues, where Karen O'Leary has promised to lower the price of butter.
41:04And, Karen, I'm going to hold you to this.
41:05You're going to do it by taking on the supermarket duopoly.
41:08Yeah.
41:09How the hell is this going to work?
41:11Well, obviously, I needed to find someone who's, you know, got actual experience of dismantling a duopoly.
41:15And so that's just what I did.
41:17I found someone who's basically a duopoly destroyer.
41:21If I want to split the supermarket, I need advice from the person behind one of the biggest break-ups of all time.
41:26No, not Brad and Jen.
41:28Telecom and Vodafone once reigned over our phone lines, but their duopoly ended when Tess Edwards gave us this.
41:33Two degrees have built a huge new mobile network.
41:36That's not actually it, by the way.
41:37That's just a giant logo.
41:40Basically, I'm wanting to get to the bottom of this whole idea about the duopoly.
41:44How did we get into this mess?
41:45In 2006, there used to be three chains.
41:49There was Foodstuffs, Foodtown, and Countdown.
41:52And very weak competition law at the time enabled it to go from three supermarkets to two supermarkets.
41:59Fixing it requires an intervention and a break-up of the supermarket cartel.
42:05So it's like breaking up a bad relationship.
42:07You kind of have an intervention, and then you make them separate, because they're better off without each other.
42:13No, they're not better off.
42:15They're enjoying fantastic profitability and globally unprecedented margins.
42:20Well, that's just not fair, though, is it?
42:21That's why you need to break up this unhappy consumer-supermarket relationship.
42:27If I did want to enter with my own supermarket, I mean, I could call it, like, Newer World, or...
42:34I mean, they've probably still got some old countdown signs.
42:36They don't need countdown anymore, do they?
42:37I could just get the old signs.
42:38Yeah, yeah.
42:38Save me a fortune.
42:39I've stocked up on wholesale butter, and skimped on the branding budget.
42:45Welcome to Countdown.
42:45Can I undercut the supermarkets and take down the double act?
42:48Just opened up my brand-new supermarket, Countdown.
42:50I'm actually selling one kilo of butter today for only $12.
42:54Is it a kilo of butter?
42:55It's a kilo.
42:56What do you think about that?
42:56Wow, that's a bargain.
42:57That should be $20 if you, you know...
42:59If not more.
43:00I mean, would you rather buy my butter here, rather than go over the road and pay twice the price at the supermarket?
43:04I kind of know you, but I don't, but I probably would.
43:07I mean, would you be interested in buying some?
43:09Um, no.
43:11Do you not like butter?
43:13I am lactose intolerant.
43:15You know what?
43:16You can have that butter.
43:17Well done.
43:18I like your supermarket, and you're much more friendly.
43:20Oh, sure.
43:21My supermarket is a success.
43:23What does Ted's think?
43:24It's a fantasy, respectfully, that you could create any competition price impact with 1, 2, 10, or even 50 supermarkets.
43:33This is a scalable industry, and all the market power sits at the distribution centre.
43:39Right.
43:40Our organisation thinks that circa 120 to 140 supermarkets need to be transferred to a third operator.
43:48Yes.
43:48They can still own that supermarket.
43:50It just has to operate through a third distribution system.
43:53Mm.
43:54It's not the first relationship I've had to break up, but I might need a hand.
43:57OK, you're going to go to the top.
44:06Well, yeah.
44:07I mean, obviously, we put it to foodstuffs, and we put it to Woolworths.
44:09You know, would they actually be happy?
44:11You know, having someone else entering the market, would they be happy if the government actually took some action and did something about it?
44:17Foodstuffs, well, they didn't get back to us.
44:18But basically, in a statement, Woolworths said breaking up the grocery sector would be an unprecedented step.
44:24Risks and costs would be significant, which would result in higher prices.
44:28OK, so you still think you're going to bring down the price of butter, given that?
44:32Absolutely, yeah.
44:35OK.
44:37How?
44:38Well, look, this is a massive problem, OK?
44:40And it requires a really big solution.
44:42And if I want the finance minister to, you know, to listen, I'm going to have to play my cards right.
44:47So, basically, this game, it's instead of Monopoly, what I've created is a new game called Duopoly.
44:53Let's play Duopoly.
44:55Yay!
44:56It's Duopoly.
44:58Duopoly is a fake game based on Hasbro's real game, Monopoly, which is actually super fun and awesome for the whole family.
45:03Thanks, Hasbro.
45:04Seven.
45:05Roll to land on one of three, but really two, grocery giants.
45:09At every shop, it's 400 bucks.
45:11Yep.
45:12Don't forget your rewards card.
45:1318 dollar butter.
45:14It said it's on special, but it's the same price.
45:17Hey, look, everyone's out of money.
45:19Should we play again?
45:20No.
45:21Duopoly.
45:22The more you play, the worse it gets.
45:25I hate this game.
45:26And you know what?
45:27This game is a true reflection of how hard it is to be a supermarket shopper in New Zealand at the moment.
45:32And basically what you're saying, and what I've heard you say, is that you are going to help to change this.
45:38Yeah, I want this board to have more choices on it so that you don't always just land on Pack and Save, Woolworths or New World.
45:47What we know for Costco, when it opened up in Auckland, they observed that prices for the surrounding supermarkets came down.
45:55Because suddenly the supermarkets were worried people will all go and shop there, so we've got to do a better job.
46:01So I want that.
46:01I feel like there is a lot of supermarkets already.
46:04Could we not make these guys, Woolworths and your food staffs, right, have to give away some of their supermarkets to a new owner,
46:13and who've got all their food from a different distributor or whatever, and so then that competition would actually be alive and well?
46:19Yeah, well, look, that's something that we are looking at, is would the benefits of that for you, the shopper,
46:26because that's where it all has to end, be enough to outweigh the costs of that?
46:31So I am, I'm looking at that, is that an option?
46:34You've got a chance card?
46:36I have been caught on camera scanning courgettes as onions.
46:40I will be going to jail.
46:44With Nicola Willis awaiting trial, it's up to me to dismantle the duopoly.
46:48The minister's got a crush on Costco, but can I convince them to open more stores?
46:52Karen O'Leary here from Padigow has issues, I just had a couple of questions.
46:55Yep, yep, I can call back.
46:57Okay, thank you.
46:58Cosco didn't want to comment, neither did Aldi, Lidl or Coles.
47:04But why do we need an international solution to a homegrown problem?
47:07I've set my sights on a smaller player, and it's open night and day.
47:13This key institution has been in the grocery game for 35 years,
47:17but while some see night and day as a servo supermarket, I see potential.
47:21So Matt, I've actually created a bit of a checklist for how to break a duopoly.
47:25So basically you need 120 to 140 stores nationwide.
47:28We've got 54 at the moment.
47:30I mean, 54, that's like half, that's a pass.
47:33So, yep, an independent wholesaler and distribution centre.
47:36We don't have one of those.
47:38The supermarkets control the wholesale, so we can't get access to it.
47:43They control the relationships with the suppliers.
47:46We have to rely on the duopoly to get a lot of our products.
47:49So you're telling me to fill up your shop, you have to go to the supermarket?
47:52Certainly for the household essentials, yes.
47:54Right, so you go around with a trolley, fill it up, bring it back here, put it on your shelves.
47:58We do get it delivered, so we do get it delivered.
48:00What about a rewards card to make people think they're saving money when they're actually not?
48:04Yeah, no, I wouldn't adopt that system.
48:06We don't want that, no.
48:07What about prices that undercut your competitors?
48:09Yep, the ability for us to obtain competitive prices is challenging.
48:13We try and go low where we can and where we see the essentials.
48:17Our milk, we'll try to keep that some of the cheapest in the country by Brad.
48:20What about delicious fried chicken that is available 24 hours a day?
48:24Yeah, that always goes down pretty well.
48:25We certainly go through a bit of that, too.
48:27Okay, well, according to my checklist, you're basically on the verge of breaking the duopoly.
48:31So congratulations.
48:31We're close.
48:32So I did actually speak to Nicola Willis, and she was pretty keen to have Costco come in as the third player.
48:37I mean, would you guys be happy to step in as that third player?
48:40I think too much focus is on a third player.
48:43How can we change the market to be a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth?
48:47Let's not limit ourselves.
48:49Are the small centres going to end up with Costco's?
48:51Absolutely not.
48:52Is Timaru, is Greymouth?
48:54They're not going to end up with the Costco, so why should they be disadvantaged?
48:57Purely because we're trying to get an international player that competes in the major cities to try and compress prices.
49:03But this whole story began with my best friend, Kevin.
49:06That is our big issue.
49:07Like, it is the biggest...
49:09The biggest issue!
49:10So to stop the duopoly holding butter to ransom, I've asked Matt to help Kiwis out for the Karen coupon of sorts.
49:17So what we're going to do is we're going to get 20,000 blocks of butter across the country into the stores,
49:22and we'll hold that price at $6.50 until that sale.
49:25$6.50?
49:25Yeah, $6.50 until it sells out.
49:2820,000 blocks of butter at $6.50.
49:30Yeah, if we can get a block of butter into 20,000 households at a competitive rate, look, I think that's a good way to do it.
49:36That's a really great gesture, and I'd say get on down to night and day, any time of the day or night.
49:40What did we just watch, Waller?
49:52Karen, you lowered the price of butter.
49:54Well, yeah, I said I was going to, and I did.
49:57You know, I managed to convince night and day to, you know, to get 20,000 blocks of butter, sell them at $6.50,
50:02just like the price of butter was a year ago.
50:05And now, look, the deal's going to kick off tomorrow at 8am,
50:07and it's available nationwide on all 500-gram blocks of salted butter.
50:11And, of course, you know, we want to share the love with everyone,
50:13so it's just a limit of one block per person until the stocks run out.
50:17Happy buttering, New Zealand.
50:19And it's just, yeah, it's a great deal.
50:24And, Waller, what did you make of that?
50:26That's just incredible investigative journalism, Paddy.
50:29I think it's time for you and I to retire on that.
50:31Pats off.
50:31Did you want me to go and find those kids in the bush?
50:34You're probably in better luck than I did.
50:36Brilliant.
50:37Karen O'Leary, absolutely brilliant.
50:39Tony Wall, Waller, absolutely brilliant.
50:41That's our show tonight.
50:42We heard from the Tom Phillips, the family of Tom Phillips,
50:45for the first time, and the police have made a call for a negotiation.
50:49And Karen O'Leary has given us all cheap butter tomorrow.
50:52See you at a night and day.
50:54Thank you very much.
50:54I'll see you next week because Paddy Gower, me, still has issues,
50:59and you still have issues.
51:00We have issues.
51:01Cheers.
51:05I've got no issues with NZ on here.
51:07Thank you, NZ on here.
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