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Paddy Gower Has Issues Season 2 Episode 4
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00:00Hello Tiwis, I'm Paddy Gower and I have got issues.
00:11On this show we investigate issues big and small that are important to all of us.
00:16Tonight, roaming and feral dogs are out of control in this country.
00:21People are being attacked and they're scared and literally thousands of dogs are being put down.
00:26And it's so easy to subscribe to things online.
00:29And hundreds of dollars a month, then it's so damn hard to unsubscribe.
00:33Karen vows to help.
00:44Tonight, my issue is with dogs.
00:47Roaming, stray, wild dogs.
00:49And I will start this by saying that I love dogs.
00:51I am a dog owner.
00:53So this isn't about the dogs themselves.
00:55It is not their fault.
00:57But because of their so-called owners, we now have an absolutely out-of-control dog population in many parts of this country.
01:05Now, my investigation has found people living in fear of dogs, kids afraid to go to school, attacks on people, attacks on pets,
01:12and multiple warnings that a roaming dog is going to kill a person.
01:17Now, Auckland Council released their brand new statistics today.
01:21And get this, in the last year, over 10,000 dogs were impounded.
01:2610,000.
01:27That is the most ever.
01:29And because many of these owners don't even claim them back, there's nowhere for these dogs to go.
01:35So as an animal lover, I find the next statistic traumatic.
01:39But it shows how bad the issue is.
01:41In the last year, over 6,000 dogs were put down.
01:44That's just in Auckland.
01:46It makes you want to cry.
01:48Now, a warning here.
01:50A warning.
01:50We are going to show you a disturbing video of an attack.
01:54It is so disturbing that we're not going to show you the full clip.
01:58The council has shared it with us because they are so worried about what is going on out there.
02:05Look at this.
02:06A toddler playing in his front yard in Auckland.
02:09Nearly dragged away by not one, but two roaming dogs who run into his property.
02:15Now, this happened 18 months ago, and I'm pleased to say the boy survived, but he was severely injured.
02:21It is scary out there.
02:22It is tragic what's happening.
02:24I am calling this our roaming dog crisis, and it really is an issue for all of us.
02:31Karen, what did you make of that footage we just saw?
02:38I mean, it was really harrowing.
02:39As a parent, I can't even imagine what it would be like to have your child playing in your own back garden,
02:43and then the next minute, these dogs are dragging them away.
02:47I mean, even as a dog owner, I just think, how would you let a dog roam around the streets,
02:51go onto someone else's property, and cause such, such horrific trauma?
02:55It's out of control.
02:55Yeah, I mean, your dog, Stevie, is a rescue dog, right?
02:58Yeah, she's a good dog, you know.
02:59I keep her at home, and she's always on the lead when she is out,
03:01so those dogs are just roaming around, and they're aggressive as well.
03:04That's the worrying thing.
03:05Yeah, now, I did this investigation.
03:07I've spoken to people all across New Zealand,
03:09and I went up to Northland, actually, where they're really struggling with it,
03:13and I found, when I went there, dogs literally all over the streets.
03:17There goes a couple of them there.
03:19See, like, just no rotents.
03:20It's like, there's a car right behind them, and they're just, like, waddling around.
03:27What's going on in this town is an absolute abominable crisis.
03:32Oh, there's one right across the road.
03:33Just hold there, just hold there.
03:35Our dog population here, our stray dog population, our breeding,
03:39is just out of control, and I don't know what to do anymore.
03:44Oh, there's a dog right there.
03:45Yeah.
03:47They're just wandering.
03:47Yeah, yeah, they just do, they just wander.
03:49There's one right there, there's children.
03:51My name's Donna.
03:52They call me Donna Doolittle around here.
03:56We do get those urgent calls of, you know,
03:59dogs that have been hit by car or, you know,
04:02straying around and causing problems.
04:06You know, there are some calls where we just do have to get out on the road
04:10in the middle of the night, as, you know, often in my pyjamas still.
04:14There we go.
04:16Across the road there.
04:16Vet nurse Donna runs an animal rescue service in the far north.
04:22It's all done by volunteers.
04:24And how many dogs did you make in the year?
04:25Yeah, I think it was about 900 last year.
04:27900 dogs?
04:28Yeah.
04:29Yeah, they're everywhere.
04:30They're literally everywhere.
04:31There's a dog there?
04:32Yeah.
04:33Just normal.
04:33Just normal.
04:34That's normal.
04:35Yeah, that's normal.
04:35There's another dog over there.
04:36They're trying to stop them breeding,
04:39de-sexing as many dogs as they can for free.
04:42Two people in a row got quite seriously attacked and had to go into hospital.
04:50You know, we've had the local lady who delivered the mail around here got attacked and unable
04:55to do a job anymore.
04:57There's kids that have been chased down after school.
05:00I feel like the community is literally waiting for that incident where someone is actually
05:07killed in order to feel like something will actually be done.
05:11This isn't just a problem in town.
05:21Further north near Cape Reinga, wild feral dogs are attacking farm animals.
05:27Motherf***ers.
05:29What happened in the most recent attack?
05:30We had 23 ewes and 37 newborn lambs killed.
05:3623 ewes and 37 newborn lambs?
05:39Yep, and they were just bitten on the head.
05:41Killed and then left.
05:42That's it.
05:43So they're not actually doing it for food.
05:45Some people might be surprised.
05:47Yeah, no, they're not hungry.
05:49They're definitely not hungry dogs.
05:50It's more like a game.
05:52Fun.
05:53To kill.
05:54Yeah, just doing it.
05:55Yeah, to kill.
05:56Wild dog.
05:58Do the f***.
06:00What's the rough estimate that your boss got on how much this latest attack cost?
06:05I think he said it was upwards of 20 grand, something like that.
06:0920 grand gone, just like that.
06:11Just like that.
06:12Yep.
06:13Far out.
06:14Yeah.
06:14So the farmer called in, punched Niho for help.
06:23I am a dog hunter.
06:24You are called out to put a hit on a dog.
06:27Correct.
06:28And I'll go and sit there all night until I get a result.
06:33And how many dogs have you personally killed?
06:39I know it's well over 70 dogs that I've shot.
06:42As a dog lover, how does it feel to shoot a dog?
06:45It's not good, because those dogs shouldn't be out there in the first place.
06:53They've been neglected.
06:55A lot of people will find this quite brutal, what you're saying, in some ways.
07:00You know, a lot of city folk and people that don't understand rural life.
07:02People don't understand what goes on up here.
07:05What Punch does is legit.
07:08In fact, the Department of Conservation pays him to hunt feral dogs.
07:13This footage is from a night camera he set up for us.
07:17They kill for fun.
07:19They kill for fun.
07:20A lot like a dingo in Australia.
07:22They're bloody dangerous.
07:24Very dangerous, yeah.
07:25And which is what I said to the Department of Conservation
07:30about it was only a matter of time
07:33before someone was killed by these feral dogs.
07:39And they could never be rehomed and trained?
07:42No, no.
07:48Punch's neighbour, John Nilsen, is so worried about wild dogs
07:52that he carries a semi-automatic weapon wherever he goes.
07:56He has a special gun licence for him.
07:58So what is that?
07:59It is a BCM, so a semi-automatic 223.
08:04For pest control?
08:05For pest control.
08:07Have you killed a few dogs with that?
08:08Yes, I have.
08:09What about this thing?
08:11So, weed control.
08:13Oh, that's weed control.
08:14Yeah.
08:15Yeah, yeah, I thought this would be for the dogs as well.
08:17Yeah.
08:22John has a warning.
08:23His farm is close to 90 Mile Beach,
08:27where many walk our national trail, Te Araroa.
08:31There's a dog peeling down by Te Paki's stream, gee.
08:35So you've got people walking, sometimes with kids and such like,
08:40and a feral dog is, you know, as bad as a wolf,
08:44or probably wolves might have more respect.
08:47They're something that's very, very dangerous.
08:50If somebody, you know, walking on their own did get mauled on the track,
08:54we may never even know what happened to them.
08:56You know, they may just go missing.
08:57What, that there'd be nothing, these dogs would leave nothing of them?
09:01They'd chew them up or drag them off into the scrub.
09:04That's a pretty big warning, though, John.
09:05You're warning that someone could get killed on the Te Araroa Trail.
09:10Yeah.
09:11John says there's a breeding population of wild dogs,
09:14but others are making their way here from Kaitaia.
09:18There's also people dumping dogs.
09:20You know, that's somebody in the town going,
09:22we'll just go and let it go in the forest.
09:25He reckons all dog owners should have a licence.
09:29So you have a licence to own a dog.
09:32Sounds, you know, absolutely over the top,
09:35but when you think about it, it works.
09:37Yeah, your suggestion is to licence the owners.
09:39The owners have to show they're responsible.
09:41My firearms are safely locked away in the cabinet.
09:44Like a dog should be safely, safely kept inside its yard.
09:53Here we go.
09:54We have socks.
09:56The little boys, the run to the litter.
10:00Back in Kaitaia, Donna Doolittle's volunteers are doing what they can.
10:05And this is Missy, a big chunky monkey.
10:10A lady had puppies dumped on her lawn.
10:12Dumped on her lawn.
10:13When we get them dumped on lawn, we had a litter of five dumped up by the cape.
10:20They came to us.
10:21We've had them under bridges.
10:23Because there are so many dogs and just not enough people to even adopt them now.
10:28They're trying to stop them breeding, desexing as many dogs as they can for free.
10:34How many dogs have you desexed this year?
10:36At least about 3,000 in total.
10:41You've desexed 3,000 dogs this year?
10:43Yeah, probably.
10:44As a volunteer?
10:46Yeah.
10:46I mean, that's extraordinary.
10:48Why is there not a law that states you just have to have your dog desexed?
10:53We need mandatory desexing in Kaitaia, in the whole of New Zealand, in order to stop this crisis.
11:01Mandatory desexing nationwide.
11:02Mandatory desexing nationwide no-brainer.
11:06Yeah, I mean, just incredible what I found up there.
11:13And of course, this is happening in a lot of poor and deprived areas.
11:17And although desexing can be offered for free by, you know, by charity groups a lot of the time,
11:21people aren't taking it up.
11:23They don't want to go there.
11:24And I was told something really quite disturbing, actually, about it.
11:28But some men don't want their male dogs desexed because they think it's like removing their own manhood.
11:35Now, I say to any man out there that thinks that, get over yourself.
11:41I mean, you think that's bizarre.
11:43I've actually heard it on multiple times when a man has decided he doesn't want to desex this male dog
11:47because he thinks it will turn the dog gay, and that doesn't want to poof the dog, which is ridiculous.
11:51Yeah, this is absolutely crazy.
11:52Now, this is a problem all over the country.
11:55And, of course, desexing stops dogs from reproducing.
11:58And I've talked to people in communities across New Zealand who are faced with exploding dog populations.
12:02They're walking their kids to school with sticks, with weapons even sometimes,
12:06dog zappers they use, and deterrent spray.
12:08Now, I went out to South Auckland and even found residents too scared to walk down their own street.
12:16You're here, you're just walking, and vroom.
12:19I'm down on the ground, I'm twisting, and I just see these jaws in my leg.
12:24I'm shocked, I'm almost paralysed with what's going on.
12:28Sheridan Seals was attacked by a roaming dog near her home in Mangaree.
12:33So that was the dog that attacked you?
12:37Yeah, this is the one that attacked me.
12:38You got a photo of it.
12:39We got a picture right before I went to urgent care so I could provide evidence of what happened.
12:44What do you think when you look at that dog?
12:46Nothing but fear.
12:47Look at all the dogs you've kept records of.
12:50So this is the evidence I've gathered for the council over the years.
12:53So these are all the pictures I've taken of dogs that are roaming.
12:56Wow.
12:58There's heaps.
13:00Now Sheridan is moving out.
13:03I don't feel safe anymore.
13:05I don't feel safe walking around my neighbourhood.
13:07I can't walk to the dairy.
13:09I can't even hop in my car if it's parked on the road.
13:11I feel trapped in my own home in this area because I can't go out safely anymore.
13:17Carrying objects like an umbrella isn't enough anymore.
13:20It's frustrating.
13:22There's a dog there now just still going past.
13:26Yeah, it's frustrating.
13:27I feel like I'm locked inside my own home.
13:29It's that fear and that's affected my life.
13:32It has affected your life big time.
13:34Yeah.
13:36Ten minutes away in Clendon, the Alan Scioli family is also reeling from a dog attack.
13:43Do you want to show your mum eyes?
13:46Yeah.
13:46It's over there.
13:50It's a little bite, but a bite is a bite.
13:54This was the damage when her six-year-old boy was bitten in the pack after school.
14:01The dog bit me when I was going to pet him.
14:05Did you think it was a nice dog or a mean dog?
14:09Nice.
14:10His mum, Lindell, tried to corner the dog.
14:13Myself and a few other parents had geared up with branches and sticks, which we had found,
14:19and the dog started to run up.
14:22It showed its teeth towards me and charged, and I started running.
14:27She says despite calling the council, the dog is still roaming.
14:31What does it make you think about taking the kids to school from here on in, or letting
14:37the kids walk to school on their own?
14:38I don't let my kids walk to school on their own.
14:41I know a parent who said to me, would you like to borrow a BB gun?
14:44Animal management needs to step up.
14:46The community needs to step up.
14:48Because now our community is getting hurt.
14:53That's how somebody has to die by an animal in order for them to act.
14:58So it's out of control?
15:01It's more than out of control.
15:02It's manic.
15:04It's manic.
15:06It's not just people being attacked by dogs.
15:09In Weymouth, they are mauling pets too.
15:12You've got the ashes of a bunny rabbit here.
15:14Yeah, he was our first rabbit.
15:17What was that rabbit's name?
15:18Bunzo.
15:19Bunzo?
15:20Yeah.
15:20Cute.
15:21And Bunzo was killed by a roaming dog?
15:24Yeah.
15:25Yeah, it was awful.
15:27So Meg and Henley got two new rabbits, but they weren't safe either.
15:31So tell me what happened that night, because you've got a big fence.
15:34So we've got three very large dogs, who don't have collars on, it looks like.
15:40And they're just surrounding the enclosure.
15:42They are running into it, trying to, I guess, get through.
15:47These are massive dogs that have jumped a huge fence.
15:52Yeah.
15:52And a pack of dogs on your property.
15:55Yeah.
15:56It makes us feel really vulnerable, knowing that they were able to get in, and that they
16:00could do this at any time.
16:02Yeah, it was awful to see, and I feel sick looking at the video.
16:05And you've got a little baby, a beautiful little baby here.
16:12You've got another weird child.
16:13Do you feel safe in this neighborhood with all the dogs around?
16:16Yeah, I don't feel safe walking around.
16:19Every time we go out, I'm thinking about what I can do to defend.
16:22No, we call animal control every time we see one.
16:25Our cases keep being closed unresolved.
16:28The dogs that killed Bunzo, they never caught them, and we would see them out on the road.
16:33So it's just awful to know that not a lot is being done, or what is being done isn't enough.
16:42In Conifer Grove, almost 30 cats were killed by dogs on Yvonne Packers Street.
16:47We lost our two cats to roaming dogs.
16:51What are you doing?
16:52She runs South Auckland Animal Rescue and helped the council track them down.
16:57We spent seven weeks out all night.
16:59We also purchased a dog trap to help catch these dogs.
17:05Her service is overwhelmed.
17:07How big is this problem?
17:09It's crazy, and it all comes down to people not desexing their pets.
17:14And it's really sad.
17:17There's dogs being dumped and left to die, and it's horrible.
17:21It's gut-wrenching to think, you know, look at these beautiful puppies, you know.
17:26And these guys here will not leave our care until they're desexed.
17:34I mean, one thing that really brought up for me was, you know, how terrible it was that that child felt scared of just going to school.
17:40We know that truancy is a big problem in New Zealand, and attendance is crucial to success.
17:45So, I mean, that's just terrible.
17:46Yeah, and actually, I went to the Ministry of Education about this, and they agree it is a big issue.
17:51They say roaming dogs have created barriers to school attendance.
17:55Children have been too frightened to walk to school or enter school grounds due to roaming or stray dogs.
18:01So, this is the Ministry of Education, Karen, admitting this and saying, yes, it is an issue.
18:06This dogs issue is becoming a social problem, preventing kids from getting their education.
18:11It really is big, and, of course, the Ministry is working on a multi-agency approach to try and solve this, they say.
18:18Now, coming up, I go on the road in Auckland to see how authorities are dealing with the problem and what the solutions are.
18:25And how much are you spending on subscriptions you've forgotten about?
18:29Karen goes to the top to free us.
18:41Back to Patty Gower Has Issues, where I am looking at why roaming dogs are such a menace in our neighbourhoods and what we can do about it.
18:49It is time now to go behind the issues.
18:54So, why are we ending up with so many roaming and dump dogs?
18:57Well, if they haven't been de-sexed, a female dog can have two litters of pups a year.
19:02Each litter can be anything from a few to 12 puppies.
19:05Then those puppies, of course, have their own puppies.
19:08And bang, there is a population explosion.
19:12So, more dogs are out there and dog-related injuries are on the up.
19:16New figures from ACC show more than 29,000 dog-related injury claims in the last year.
19:23That's up nearly 10,000 from 10 years ago.
19:26And Auckland Council's figures just out today show roaming dogs and attacks are worse than ever before.
19:33There were 10,214 dogs impounded in the past year.
19:39That is the highest number ever.
19:41Almost 2,000 dogs more than the year before.
19:46Now, out of last year's 10,000 dogs, only about 35% were claimed by their owners, leaving over 6,000 dogs at the pound.
19:57That's meant a big increase in dogs being put down.
20:026,079 dogs were euthanised in a year.
20:06That is a tragedy.
20:08That is over 2,000 more dogs put down than the year before.
20:13So, basically, 17 dogs are being put down every single day in Auckland.
20:19Why so many?
20:20Well, the reality is there are so many dogs available to buy or adopt elsewhere that people don't want one from the pound.
20:29And in case you are wondering, the most impounded dog is one of these.
20:34A Staffie.
20:35A Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
20:37And there were more than 2,000 impounded in the last year.
20:41Take it from me, they are everywhere out there.
20:44Now, back to de-sexing.
20:47Under the law, the council can't de-sex impounded dogs without the owner's permission,
20:55which means they mostly go back into the community still able to breed.
21:00This, the council reckons, is a big part of why there is a dog population explosion.
21:07Councils cannot cope.
21:08And that is exactly what I saw out on the front line in South Auckland.
21:12I've just received another two jobs.
21:17One's an aggressive and another one is a roaming.
21:19So, this is what we deal with dogs being mauled to that extent.
21:23I really empathise and sympathise with the dog owner and the dog itself.
21:27But, yeah, you sort of get numb to it.
21:31I'm out with Animal Control Officers, Richard and Miguel.
21:40We'll take that roaming off you.
21:42They're one of 30 units on patrol today.
21:45It's a roaming in Papakorobro.
21:47There we go.
21:50See your dog, guys.
21:51We get what we call P1 jobs, which is jobs that we need to attend to straight away.
21:59Just keep them contained, eh?
22:01All right?
22:01Sure.
22:03And that could be anything.
22:04That could be dog attacks, roamings, pick-ups.
22:10Hello?
22:11Hello?
22:14Anyone home?
22:15A lot of things we've come across is, um, I don't think a lot of dog owners have their dog as a family member.
22:21A lot of them say it's there for protection.
22:24He's got a dog.
22:25Oh, OK.
22:27So, where will that dog go?
22:33He's got no microchips, so we're taking him straight to the shelter.
22:38And that's where we're heading to.
22:41And now this place is full at the moment, Tommy.
22:43The Manukau Animal Shelter is the largest pound in New Zealand.
22:49Pretty much all our shelters are at capacity.
22:51We can have 30, 40 dogs come in in one day.
22:5530 or 40 dogs can be brought in here in one day.
22:59These dogs have passed the safety test and are up for adoption.
23:04So, all these puppies.
23:06A lot of them are dumped in parks or in public bathrooms.
23:10These two are really cute.
23:11Do all the puppies that come here have time to hide?
23:14No.
23:18And then there are the really aggressive dogs.
23:24What's a pole dog?
23:25So, this is a pole.
23:27So, it's basically a lead, but with a metal pole to keep your distance with the dog.
23:35In many cases where you have dogs that are highly aggressive and it's going to be a risk to the public,
23:42we won't approve a release of those dogs.
23:44There's multiple avenues that we're trying to tackle the dog problem in Auckland.
23:51Rob Irvine is the council boss dealing with this issue.
23:55Desexing is one of them.
23:56We've got to reduce the amount of unwanted dogs.
23:59And that's at the heart of the problem here, isn't it?
24:01That these dogs are breeding.
24:03A dog will just have a litter after litter after litter.
24:06The council wants the government to change the law so it can desex impounded dogs before they go back to their own.
24:13What is your message to the government here?
24:15We need some big changes, including the ability for councillors to tackle the desexing problem.
24:21The council also wants a law change so it can bring in mandatory desexing if needed.
24:26And you need the power to be able to call for mandatory desexing across Auckland.
24:32Yeah.
24:33It's a crisis, would you say?
24:34It's a crisis, it's a crisis, yes.
24:37And we need government's help.
24:39The council also wants the Dog Control Act changed so it can put down dogs faster.
24:45So a dog's got seven days for the owner to come and claim it or it gets euthanised.
24:50The council wants to bring that down to five.
24:52That's tougher.
24:52Yeah, it is a very controversial proposal.
24:57We don't want to be euthanising dogs.
24:59It's something that our staff really, really struggle with.
25:02It's not something that any one of them enjoy.
25:04But unfortunately the shelter capacity is at a maximum.
25:08You have got to euthanise the dogs quicker to make more room for all the dogs that need to be in there.
25:13And that will then keep the public safe.
25:15Dog, dog, dog!
25:16At the West Auckland Pound, to get more dogs desexed, the council is even running a free pick-up and drop-off service.
25:24It is targeting dogs in high-risk areas, says manager Nikki Cripps.
25:29So you'll go out and pick the dogs up and bring them here?
25:32Absolutely.
25:33So we will go to the owner's home, we will pick up the dog, we will have discussion with the owner, bring it to the clinic.
25:39And when they've fully recovered and been monitored for the required time, then we return them to the owner.
25:47We're about to castrate this dog today, so it's a pretty quick and straightforward procedure.
25:51Council vet Hannah Ford is desexing up to eight dogs a day.
25:55Once we've removed that testosterone, they'll be a little bit calmer at home.
25:59They'll be less reactive to other dogs and certainly less reactive to female dogs.
26:07So is that one testicle or two?
26:11This here is one testicle.
26:12So this is the second testicle that I'm removing.
26:14So that's one?
26:15Yeah.
26:16So the other one's just in that little pot there.
26:19Yeah, so you can see it's very quick.
26:21It is quick.
26:22Yeah.
26:22They're gone quite quickly, aren't they?
26:23Yeah, yeah.
26:27All done?
26:28Yep, all finished.
26:29Yeah, and if you could say one thing to people who are reluctant to get their dogs desexed, what would it be?
26:35I would say that it's the right thing that you can do for your animal and for your community.
26:39Yep.
26:40And before I leave, a frightening reminder of the problem.
26:45I check out Auckland's most dangerous dogs.
26:48So one of the big issues as part of this is that councils can make bylaws.
27:10We all know that.
27:11But with something as big as desexing and euthanasia, they say they need the backing of an actual law, which would be a change to that Dog Control Act that's out there so they can get the powers that they need.
27:23And you may be wondering, Karen, what the SBCA and our vets think.
27:27Well, they both want breeders to be registered.
27:30And when it comes to desexing, the SBCA says all dogs need to be desexed before rehoming, while vets say sterilisation of unowned dogs and puppies being rehomed is their position.
27:44So both of them want basically targeted desexing powers, and that would require what the council's asking for, that law change, Karen.
27:53Yeah, well, there actually is another solution.
27:55I was out walking the other day and I saw a llama.
27:59OK.
28:00Bear with me, though.
28:01So I sort of asked a couple of questions, and it turns out the Auckland City Council have got lots of parks, but some of which have got livestock in them.
28:07So, you know, lambs, sheep, that kind of thing.
28:09And what they've actually done is they've got llamas to guard the sheep, because llamas can actually make, like, they make this shrill noise that sounds like an alarm.
28:18So it's like a llama, a llama.
28:19A llama, a llama.
28:21And so these, basically, they've just got llama guard guarding all the parks.
28:27All right, that is a solution now.
28:29Coming up, Karen tries every face she can to get us out of unwanted subscription traps.
28:39Welcome back to Padigawa Has Issues.
28:48Well, we put all these issues and concern to the government, and the minister in charge of local councils and dog control, Simon Watts, says he is aware and concerned about roaming dogs, but says, get this, councils have the authority to develop dog control bylaws tailored to their local circumstances.
29:07So he's saying, you don't need the powers that you're asking for.
29:11We put that to the Auckland Council, Rob Irvine, the boss who you heard from earlier, and he said, a bylaw around de-sexing may be challenged as to whether it's lawful.
29:20We believe it cannot be done under a bylaw.
29:23So, basically, the council is saying, we need more powers.
29:27Government is saying, no, you don't.
29:29OK, so that's great.
29:30So, basically, the councils and the, you know, and the government are at war while these dogs are roaming around, you know, breeding and biting people.
29:37Yeah, exactly.
29:37It's really good news.
29:38And it is not great.
29:39So, now, the far north, where we were earlier in the show, have told us they'd welcome a review of this 30-year-old Dog Control Act.
29:46And joining us now is the mayor of the far north, Mokotu Panea.
29:50How bad is the dog situation up there, mayor?
29:53Oh, it's significant just during the past three years.
29:57In my time as mayor, right, we've been in the papers for all the wrong reasons when it comes for dogs here in the whanau.
30:02I welcome changes to 30-year-old legislation which isn't fit for purpose and giving us more tools in the kete so that we can get on top of this.
30:13Yes, and have you had any problems with loose dogs yourself?
30:17Oh, yeah.
30:18I mean, we get around 8,000 registered dogs every year, but we know about 10,000 dogs, which means there's probably 20,000 dogs out there in the whanau.
30:28We've just spent over $4 million over the past four years to upgrade both of our animal shelters, have 15 staff, but it's a real hard one to get on top of, one that we are actively working to do better by.
30:40But the more tools that we can put in our kete and better legislative reform to empower us on the ground to do this.
30:47Now, Auckland Council, they've got a much larger legal team than we do here in the little whanau.
30:52So if they're saying that they're not going to implement something like mandatory de-sexting because they'll be challenged, there's no way the whanau is ever going to take that risk.
31:01We need our central government to step up with changes to empower us to do better for our people up here.
31:05Great. So your message to the government is what? Give you a hand by the sounds of things.
31:09I know this is an issue across the country, right, but for us in the whanau, we've got 75,000 people spread over 40 towns, and our district is four hours long and two hours wide.
31:20We've got 12 animal management officers on the ground, but if they need to respond to a call-out, you know, the next town over is a half an hour, an hour return trip.
31:30We've got two pounds, one in the whanau and one in the mid-north.
31:33We're struggling to keep on top of this, and then there's always that litigation risk that comes with the fact that our controlling legislation is out of date.
31:42Our dog control bylaw is up for renewal next year.
31:45I would love to have extra tools that we could implement through a renewed dog control act when we go through that process with our people.
31:53Being up there, Mr Mayor, it looked like a crisis to me.
31:57A quick message to the government on how much you need help to deal with this.
32:00Oh, we absolutely need help.
32:03Now, first and foremost, we've got thousands of responsible dog owners in the whanau, keep up the awesome mahi.
32:09But we also have whanau up here who are not responsible dog owners and who are letting their dogs get out, roam around and run amok.
32:16We need tools in our kit to make sure we can get on top of that central government.
32:20Haka ronga mai, listen up, and come up and help us.
32:23Well, thank you very much, Mia Moko Te Panea from the whanau there.
32:30OK, so I'm with the Mayor on this one, actually, because tonight my issue was with dogs, wild, stray and roaming dogs.
32:38The Dog Control Act 1996 is 30 years old and is not fit for purpose.
32:42It is a dog of a law, and the government must review it.
32:45There is a solution here.
32:47Desexing.
32:48Stop the breeding.
32:49It is quite simple.
32:50It is ridiculous that councils don't have the power to desex animals before they leave the pound.
32:56Compulsory desexing before dogs leave volunteer shelters as well.
33:00No-brainer.
33:01And as a country, we must investigate mandatory desexing.
33:05All dogs, except for registered breeders.
33:08This is on the government.
33:10Review the law.
33:10Change the law before a roaming dog kills someone.
33:14Because this is an issue for all of us.
33:17All right, coming up, it's Karen's turn.
33:23Subscriptions are so easy to sign up for, but sometimes the only way you can get out is with the help of Karen.
33:30Hello, Kiwis, and welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues, where we are turning from roaming dogs to, well, Karen O'Leary.
33:49Karen, what issue are you sorting out today?
33:52You're not saying I'm a roaming dog, though, are you, Paddy?
33:55No, I'm not.
33:55Today, I'm doing, this week, subscriptions, and it's a word that I find very difficult to say,
34:02so if I do get through the rest of this show, will they be able to say it?
34:06Then I'm going to take that as a win, regardless of the outcome of my investigation.
34:09Yeah, there's a bigger issue than that.
34:10Yeah, yeah, but the issue with subscriptions is you know what it's like.
34:13It's so easy to sign up to anything, you know, one click and you're up there,
34:18and then before you know it, you're starting to get charged money.
34:21And, you know, businesses have got lots of ways to trap you into these things.
34:25It might start with a free trial, then all of a sudden you're paying for the service,
34:28or, you know, there's a terrible maze just to try and work out how to unsubscribe.
34:32I mean, have you had any?
34:33Yeah, well, just lately, actually, I keep month after month,
34:36I don't even know where the hell it came from, OnlyFans.
34:40Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, well, that's an issue for another time.
34:48But the good thing is, New Zealand, don't worry, I am on the case.
34:51So, Claire, tell me, what is your issue?
34:54So, I won a competition with McDonald's,
34:56and I got a free magazine subscription for six months.
35:01I was like, oh, yeah, cool, looks really cool.
35:04After six months, then, according to the terms and conditions, I start charging you.
35:09But in that time, I'd changed jobs.
35:12I no longer had that email address.
35:14Right.
35:15So, I couldn't access the account, not even to read the things they were charging me for.
35:20Right.
35:20So, I couldn't get this product.
35:22So, I wrote them an email, and it was, you know, very formal.
35:25I, Claire, Lang, no longer authorise you to deduct.
35:30No, we want the first four numbers, and the last four numbers of the credit card.
35:35You're charging it off.
35:37But I didn't actually know physically where it was, so I couldn't do that, and I can't access my account.
35:42So, Claire cancelled her credit card, but the charges soon appeared on her replacement card.
35:47She was trapped.
35:47So, that actually took me about six months, you know, just to everything.
35:50That's not your priority, your day-to-day priority.
35:52Exactly.
35:53You're a teacher, are you?
35:53You're a busy teacher.
35:54Yeah.
35:55I have learned my lesson now.
35:56I just, I won't sign up for anything like that.
35:59Claire was paying for a subscription she did not want, and it was almost impossible to cancel.
36:03She's not the only one.
36:04One time last year, I'd been to LA, and I got caught, didn't realise for ages, because
36:08they never took little amounts out of my bank account, but it was to an adult website, which
36:13I did not sign up to, just to let you know, I didn't sign up to that.
36:17I didn't, I actually didn't.
36:17Before I reveal too much, let's see what Sahara Consumer NZ thinks about Claire's situation.
36:23Claire's pretty unlucky, and yeah, companies are getting away with that at the moment.
36:28There are some protections under the Fair Trading Act and Consumer Guarantees Act, but
36:34we think that they could be stronger to ensure that people aren't being trapped in subscriptions
36:40they don't want.
36:41With no laws to protect us from these traps, I'm thinking about laying my own bait.
36:46Hey look, now, I'm thinking of starting up my own subscription, you know, an online one.
36:50I mean, what kind of things would you suggest I do to make sure people find it very hard
36:56to get out of it, and have to pay me quite a lot of money?
36:59I think make it really difficult to unsubscribe.
37:01Yeah, so just like by hiding the, hiding the button?
37:04Okay, yes, what else can I do?
37:05Yeah, nailed it.
37:06You could also do some confirm shaming, so, um, are you really sure you want to leave?
37:12Okay, so if they do manage to leave, then I send them an email?
37:15Yeah, something that ideally would guilt or shame them.
37:19Yes, okay, how do you sleep at night?
37:21That sort of stuff?
37:22Yeah, is that, is that okay for me to do that?
37:24If you're about increasing your bottom line, then go for gold.
37:29I will go for gold, thank you very much, Zaha.
37:30It's been a fantastic chat.
37:32Thanks, Karen.
37:32So it's as easy as that.
37:35And with a new intel, to fix this problem, I'm going to become the problem.
37:39Click subscribe.
37:45I mean, it's actually a really, really good app.
37:48I think you're going to really love it.
37:49Yeah, I'll probably want to subscribe.
37:51Oh, definitely.
37:51Look, so basically what I did discover is that there are currently no specific laws to, you know, to protect us from these subscription traps.
37:59And internationally, that means we're kind of lagging behind, because obviously in France, you must be able to cancel a subscription within three clicks.
38:06For the Germans, it's just two clicks.
38:07And in the States, Biden tried to enforce a one-click-to-cancel rule, but the big orange monster that's in charge over there now nipped that in the bud last month.
38:15So basically, with no real protections here, you know, after the break, with my new app, I'm just going to go out there and try and exploit this thing and see how easy it is to catch people in these subscription traps.
38:25And coming up, Karen does do that.
38:28She sets her own trap, then hits the Wellington, where she starts a wicked jam to get you out of a wicked subscription jam.
38:34Welcome back to Patigawa Has Issues, where it's now Karen O'Leary, who has a massive issue with subscriptions that you can get into, Karen, but you can never leave.
38:54Well, I know, and look, it turns out that we're not very well protected, so obviously I've decided to exploit the loophole with my very own subscription service.
39:03So you're going bad, you're breaking bad.
39:05Well, look, I mean, it's not in my nature.
39:07Eh, it's kind of in my nature, yeah.
39:09But look, I would like to introduce to you my new meditation app, and it's called Calm, with a K.
39:19Kia ora, Aotearoa.
39:20Have you been feeling stressed lately?
39:22Calm, the brand new app to meditate your stress away.
39:26Each day I'll send you a guided meditation full of inspiring words and mantras.
39:31You're a leaf floating on the wind.
39:33You land in the gutter.
39:35Don't worry.
39:36You'll clean it out next summer.
39:38And even more mantras.
39:39You are a beautiful horse with long legs and strong thighs.
39:44Go to the website now, enter your credit card details, and you'll get a completely free seven-day trial.
39:49And then after that, I'm going to charge you $350, but I won't email.
39:53Hear that?
39:54It's completely free.
40:00Before my app hits the market, I need to put my mantras where the money is, and survey some potential customers.
40:05It's called Calm, with a K.
40:06And I was wondering, would you mind just having a little listen, then give me some feedback so I can improve it?
40:10Yeah, sure.
40:11Thank you so much.
40:12Put that on, and we'll play the app.
40:13Okay, here you go.
40:14Take it away, Karen.
40:14I mean you.
40:15I am enough.
40:20I am.
40:21I am enough.
40:23The universe speaks through you, and it says, up the waas.
40:29Do you feel more relaxed now?
40:31Oh, yeah, definitely.
40:32I feel so much better.
40:33I'm calm.
40:34You didn't look that relaxed, but did you find it relaxing?
40:36Such great feedback.
40:40Thank you so much.
40:41And obviously, you know how I can use that feedback to develop my app.
40:43I do just need you to sign this actual form so we can use you on the television.
40:46It's all fine.
40:47I've asked my product users to sign a release form saying they're happy to appear on the telly.
40:51Luckily, no one ever reads the fine print.
40:53You did obviously read this.
40:54You gave it a quick skin.
40:54Yeah, double check.
40:55You'd read number six, which was, I agree to a 10-year subscription to MeditationAppCalm at a monthly cost of $350.
41:02So you have signed up for that now, $350.
41:05Oh, hell.
41:05And you can revoke the subscription to come, but you understand you must get a tattoo of my face on your left buttock.
41:12And it would be beautiful.
41:13Either pay the money or get the tattoo.
41:16Oh, I'll probably get the tattoo, actually.
41:19Great.
41:19Thank you so much.
41:20It's been a pleasure.
41:21Have fun with the rest of your 10 years.
41:22Thanks.
41:23But if my subscribers want to kick up a fuss about the new service, they could complain to Vanessa at the Commerce Commission.
41:28Let's just say hypothetically, so completely hypothetically, I did create my own app.
41:33It was incredibly easy to sign up for, free trial, but then was quite hard, nigh on impossible to get out of.
41:40Simply click the unsubscribe button, which is hidden at the end of a very, very long hidden maze.
41:44At what point do you, the ComCom, come in, the ComCom come in to, you know, to say, look, enough is enough business.
41:51You've got to stop this.
41:52Do you do that?
41:53Yeah, we do.
41:54So in the past year, I think we've received about 150 complaints about subscription traps.
42:00Like, who are the worst offenders?
42:02Like, now's the time, just name and shame them.
42:04So Uber, with them, we had some complaints from people saying that they were being caught up in a free trial and then, you know, having a subscription that they couldn't get out of.
42:13And so we said to Uber, not great for consumers.
42:16We're getting complaints, which is not great for you either.
42:19And so what Uber NZ now do is they send out an alert from the app that says your free trial is about to come to an end.
42:26If you don't want it, tap this button and it will go away.
42:29One click cancellation.
42:31Awesome, you know.
42:32And the business gets penalised.
42:33Like, say they get taken to court, they lose some money.
42:35But do they still make more money from tricking people?
42:38Like, does it work?
42:40Is that the right penalty?
42:41It's on the current government's agenda to look at the Fair Trading Act penalties.
42:45And there's a private member's bill in the bucket over there at the moment.
42:51Biscuit tin.
42:51Biscuit tin, yeah.
42:52That might be being pulled out.
42:55If there's one thing I can do, it's get to the bottom of a biscuit tin.
42:59It's off to Parliament I go.
43:02Okay.
43:03Now, I know a lot about that biscuit tin.
43:06It's literally a lottery.
43:07If your solution to this subscription issue is at the bottom of a bloody biscuit tin, we've got problems.
43:13Well, I know, yeah.
43:14But look, I mean, what else?
43:16Look, I've got faith in the biscuit tin.
43:18Yeah, okay.
43:18Well, what about banks?
43:19Surely I should just be able to go to my bank and say, look, I'm subscribed to the OnlyFans.
43:24Stop it.
43:25Stop it right there.
43:26Of course you would absolutely think that.
43:27But I actually did ring my bank when I was getting charged for a streaming service that I was sure that I'd cancelled.
43:32I rang up the bank and said, look, you know, this is my account, my money.
43:35Please stop paying these people.
43:36And they said, no, you've entered into a contract, so we can't do that.
43:39And then I rang up the streaming service, said to them, look, I've cancelled this thing.
43:42And I was very angry.
43:44And they said, who, do you know anyone called Eilish?
43:46And my partner had actually been using that.
43:48They have.
43:49So then I had an egg on my face, yeah.
43:51That's another issue you ought to get, Karen.
43:52Yeah, yeah.
43:53But look, unlike you, like I said, I do have faith in the biscuit tins.
43:57So obviously I went back to Parliament just to see if I could hurry things along.
44:01We need action on subscriptions.
44:03And the good news is that somebody in here might already be doing it for us.
44:08A little birdie told me that you want to do something about this.
44:11And that little birdie was obviously the Labour press release.
44:14What is your bill?
44:15What's it all about?
44:15So it's called the Fair Trading Subscription Cancellation Amendment Bill.
44:21You know, bills just have such catchy names in this country.
44:24What is the acronym for that?
44:25If we did the letters?
44:27F-T-C-A-B.
44:29Oh, that sounds...
44:30That's catchy, yeah?
44:30The F-T-C-A-B.
44:31Yes.
44:32Yeah, I've heard about it.
44:33If you can sign up on your phone or online, you should be able to cancel your subscription that way.
44:39As easily.
44:40As easily as...
44:41Because, you know, we're all scrolling at night and think, oh, I might try that exercise programme.
44:44And the seven-day free trial next minute, you're getting a monthly deduction out of your credit card.
44:50So this will make it as simple as it was for you doom-scrolling to subscribe to cancel it.
44:56So obviously, we know the biscuit tin.
44:57It's like a lottery.
45:01Number 22.
45:0322.
45:04Financial market.
45:05Is there anything that I, we can do to try and help get that bill drawn?
45:10As tempted as I am to sneak you down there, Karen.
45:13It's a fair process.
45:14Everyone gets drawn at random, so there is really no way to speed it up.
45:18It is kind of a matter of the luck of the draw.
45:20I have it on good authority again, because you told me that you're actually really good at playing the guitar.
45:26So I thought maybe we could just have a little bit of a sing-song.
45:29We could sing a song about subscriptions.
45:33Do you think we could do that?
45:34Well, I'm not...
45:34My singing voice is not...
45:36I'm happy to sing.
45:36...not here at...
45:37Oh, you can sing?
45:37Hey, if you subscribe, and you change your mind, you reckon all the parties are going to support it?
45:47I would hope so.
45:48Every now and then, you know, we surprise the nation, and we all vote unanimously on things,
45:54and I think...
45:54And it could be this bill.
45:55It could be this bill.
45:56So while Kusha's bill sits in the biscuit tin collecting crumbs, I'm following the scent of unity,
46:03and my nose has led me just down the corridor.
46:05Typically, parties don't take much of a view about a member's bill that's in the tin but not yet drawn,
46:12because it's kind of hypothetical.
46:14It hasn't happened.
46:15It's kind of not real.
46:16So you don't get to eat the biscuit yet?
46:17You don't get the biscuit.
46:18In principle, what I'd say is that I think it should be as easy to get out of a subscription
46:25as it is to get into one.
46:27So basically, you're kind of on a similar page.
46:31Yeah, yeah.
46:31Let's say Kusha's bill gets pulled out of the biscuit tin, right?
46:34Then what would you say about it?
46:36Well, I would say I'd like to look at it.
46:38I'd like to look at the details.
46:39I'm going to ask my officials to just see whether actually there is already existing law.
46:45So there could be something in the Fair Trading Act that actually, I think,
46:49means that what Kusha is seeking could be achieved,
46:55but maybe it's not being enforced or applied already.
46:58When you've heard from your officials and they've looked into it,
47:01can you send me an email or flip me a text?
47:03Yeah, but will you be subscribing to my channels?
47:07Oh, is there a free trial for seven days?
47:09Yeah, could be.
47:10Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:11I did have a bit of a sing-song in Kusha's office.
47:14Do you have a guitar in here?
47:15No, I'm in the business of trying to win votes.
47:20What about, can you do this?
47:23Here we go, here we go.
47:26You just copy me and you say what I say.
47:28Here we go, here we go.
47:30This is the singing bit.
47:32You didn't tell me about this.
47:33Seriously.
47:34So Scott's agreed in principle,
47:36and I've agreed to get him some music lessons.
47:38Now we just have to wait for a bit of luck to hit the biscuit tin.
47:43How easy should it be
47:45To set yourself free, free, free
47:48It should be easy
47:51So that was actually quite good.
47:55That was quite good.
47:56We might make a jingle for the bill.
47:57So, like you saw there, I asked Minister Scott, you know, to investigate this,
48:06and he did, and guess what?
48:08What, what, what?
48:09Well, there is nothing to protect us from subscription traps.
48:12I'm doing so well.
48:13So now, obviously, he does agree that the bill that's in the biscuit tin
48:16might not be a bad idea.
48:18I mean, he actually gave us a statement.
48:19He said the member's bill would extend protection
48:22so that all subscriptions can be cancelled in any way by the consumer.
48:26Wow.
48:27So what's he going to do about it, Minister Scott?
48:29Nothing.
48:32No, so he's not.
48:33He knows there's a problem, right?
48:35Okay.
48:35He knows how to fix it.
48:37He's in government.
48:38He's the Minister of Consumer Affairs.
48:40We tried to contact him, you know,
48:41but this is actually what he's been doing.
48:44Oh, okay.
48:45Yeah, yeah.
48:46He couldn't come on the show, no.
48:47No, he's busy.
48:48There's nothing you can do, Karen O'Leary,
48:50if the Minister of Consumer Affairs,
48:53also known as the Minister of Diagnosing Problems
48:56and Doing Nothing About Them,
48:58isn't around to do anything about it.
49:00Oh, my goodness.
49:01I've got the solution.
49:02We need to make you the Minister of Consumer Affairs,
49:06not Scott Simpson.
49:06Vote for Karen.
49:07Yeah, who agrees?
49:10All right.
49:11Thank you so much to everyone who shared their issues with us tonight.
49:14Thank you to the studio audience.
49:16No issues with you.
49:17Thank you for watching No Issues With You Either.
49:18I'm Paddy Gower, and I still have issues
49:21because we still have issues.
49:23See you next Tuesday.
49:25Cheers.
49:29I've got no issues with New Zealand On Air.
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