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Paddy Gower Has Issues Season 2 Episode 8
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00:00Hello Kiwis I'm Paddy Gower and I have got issues. Now on the show we investigate issues big and
00:15small that are important to all of us and tonight a new explosion of online gambling is targeting
00:22us wherever we look. Our kids and our young people are the ones most at risk. Paula Penfold and I
00:28investigate. And if you're being drug tested for work there's fake urine that
00:33you can buy to try and trick the test. Why is this legal?
00:47Tonight my issue is with online casinos. Kiwi have started doing an insane amount of
00:53gambling online, online pokies, pokies through your phone. This is a new form of
00:58gambling that has infected our society. Now 1.3 million New Zealanders have had an
01:06online bet according to a Ministry of Health survey. 1.3 million, that's heaps.
01:10Now a lot of Kiwi will say there is nothing wrong with having a pun and there
01:14isn't but there is concern out there that it starts with our kids gaming and buying
01:19what's called loot boxes and a lot of parents will have seen their kids with
01:23one of these. And it seems like everybody has noticed the increase of advertising
01:30for sports betting that's out there. Then there are these online casinos that I'm
01:34talking about tonight. They are not allowed to advertise here but that isn't
01:38stopping them from getting influencers to push their products. They exist of course in
01:44the lawless world that is the internet. And while fun for some they are entrenching
01:51harm and addiction deeper than ever before and it's about to get bigger with up
01:56to 15 online casinos being put into New Zealand legally. I'm calling this our
02:02online gambling invasion and this really is an issue for all of us.
02:11Joined tonight by my good friend Karen O'Leary and of course Paula Penfold who is one of
02:17New Zealand's greatest investigative journalists and my friend as well. Now
02:21Karen, you'd love a punt wouldn't you?
02:23I absolutely with my dad used to have the odd punt on the GGs you know but I haven't
02:27delved into the online gambling as yet.
02:29Yeah and just keep it at yet, watch tonight first. And Paula, online gambling, it's getting
02:34much bigger isn't it?
02:35Yeah I haven't done it myself but my son who's in his 20s does it a fair bit. So to all of
02:40his friends that's the thing about it I think now it is insidious because you don't have
02:44to go to the casino you just get your phone out of your pocket.
02:46Yeah you don't have to go to the pokies either. And a warning obviously we are talking about
02:50gambling tonight which can be harmful and addictive. Text 8006 if you want help with
02:56gambling. And I started this investigation for us Paula and I went where international
03:01online casinos, young men and influencers are all coming together in a kind of cocktail
03:07and get this, it's in Dunedin, Student Central, which is also ground zero of this growing form
03:15of gambling.
03:21These Otago Uni students are far from hardcore crimps but we're hiding their faces so they
03:27can speak out about a dodgy world. Who gambles here?
03:31Me.
03:32Yeah.
03:33Everybody.
03:36We're on Castle Street in Dunedin, the iconic student flat end zone.
03:43I pushed in the pool last night my phone to **** so I need a new phone so 10 **** would've
03:49hit that.
03:50How big is gambling amongst the flats here?
03:52Huge.
03:53Everyone does it.
03:54Everyone does it.
03:55Most flats when most nights have some sort of gambling going on inside. A lot of sports
04:02gambling like chucking a couple of multis throughout the week. A lot on the league, on the NFL.
04:11But yeah, more of an online slots type of guy. Like come back to the flat with the boys
04:16and do a couple of features. Hope we win big and most of the time we don't. But when we do it's
04:23pretty **** good.
04:29A feature is when you buy a chance to win a bonus.
04:32This is Sweet Bonanza 1000. I've just done a few bets and lost pretty badly so doing a $300
04:38one now to try to catch that up.
04:40Some say their gambling started well before they hit uni. The gateway was gaming and like
04:47so many kids, buying loot boxes.
04:52Yeah, nah, it definitely started with our loot box and stuff on games and then progressing
04:57into just gambling websites.
05:00This student tells me just how easy it was to start betting. He was only 14 and says he
05:05didn't need to verify his age. Since then he's placed more than 16,000 bets.
05:14It sucks. It's really consuming to be honest. Just want to get that dopamine hit.
05:22Chasing losses. No one here actually has the money to gamble. So just, yeah, digging ourselves into holes.
05:30Oh boy, student loan is just at the account that's $300. We're now able to blackjack and
05:36chuck the entire thing on a hand here. Let's see if we can double our student loan for the rep.
05:41One, one. Bang. How good.
05:43And students here aren't just playing. They've been paid to promote gambling on social media.
05:49And that's not exactly legal.
05:51I'd say a huge sum of people down here have definitely done that.
05:55And the figures they're offering are just crazy for what you have to do.
05:59A couple 30 second videos. You get like, from anywhere from like 20 USD, 50 USD a video.
06:06The money's just too good to say no to. Like obviously, it's pretty marginal and stuff.
06:11Legality wise, but it's just as a student, that's such a good amount of money to be raking in for doing next to no work.
06:17Then you may as well do it. They all say they have stopped.
06:21I was in a group of two. And yeah, I was making a few grand a week.
06:26We were making 2,000 USD a week split between three of us.
06:30We worked it out that Rainbit was paying Castle Street about $14,000 a week at one point.
06:37Wow. It was pretty nuts.
06:38Sam Smith-Soppett from Otago University's student magazine, critic Te Arohi, says gambling is big on campus.
06:50What did you find out about it in your investigations?
06:52I found that there were some pretty predatory sites going out of their way to target New Zealand, particularly university students, into promoting these gambling sites that are run offshore.
07:04Who's paying them? By and large, it is an organisation called Rainbit.
07:08They operate out of somewhere in the Caribbean, I believe.
07:11And in terms of the actual content, quite often it'll be skits.
07:18Just got a $300 ticket for riding us on the road. No off, no reg, no worries.
07:22One I saw the other day was someone got a $300 ticket for driving a golf cart on Castle Street.
07:27They ran a couple of hands of blackjack and they did quite well and paid off the ticket.
07:32Oh, it's a bloody good laugh.
07:34And this gambling scene got big enough for authorities to strike.
07:39We're pretty concerned by the behaviour that we're seeing from some of these casinos.
07:43It's pretty cynical, it's pretty deliberate.
07:45Vicki Scott is the Director of Gambling at the Department of Internal Affairs.
07:50When it comes to the students, we took an education first approach.
07:54Our team reached out to them directly and just explained what the prohibition actually requires and the fact that they were breaking the law.
08:01So, it's actually a criminal offence to advertise an offshore casino in New Zealand.
08:08And that's punishable by a $5,000 infringement fine.
08:11But a lot of them just immediately stopped offending.
08:14Have you made money out of gambling or lost money overall?
08:17Astronomically down, I'd say.
08:19Yeah, nah, definitely lost money.
08:22Why are you speaking out today?
08:24I think it's promoted too much.
08:25I think it's become normalised.
08:27Whether through like influences or sports games.
08:31I don't think that's a good thing.
08:32It's being advertised everywhere in YouTube ads, Instagram ads, live sport.
08:37Yeah, it's been completely normalised.
08:39Started with TAB and all their promotion and then your bitches coming in every third ad on YouTube or something.
08:47Influences promoting in as well.
08:49Just everywhere and kids are getting on to it at quite a young age.
08:52Does it worry you that kids are getting on to it?
08:54Yeah, yeah.
08:55Sort of want to speak out so that maybe parents can let their kids know about the dangers of gambling
08:59and how much of a trap it really is to get into what they do.
09:03I reckon it's just such a bad addiction.
09:05It changes the way people think about money where they'll eat two minute noodles for dinner
09:09but then they'll also spend 200 bucks on the same day on some gambling thing.
09:13It's just...
09:15You just justify it to yourself and it's pretty ridiculous.
09:19And do your parents know you gamble?
09:21My parents wouldn't have a clue.
09:23They're really against that stuff and I'm starting to see why.
09:26In case you're wondering how much these students are gambling, while I was down there I got told,
09:32you know, it's into the thousands at times and one of them told me 2,300 bucks in a day in his room alone.
09:40You heard the boys talk about loot boxes then, so loot boxes work like this.
09:44A kid buys a loot box in the hope of it having something good for the game in it.
09:48Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
09:50The research is already showing that it's a precursor to gambling.
09:54I mean, it's just really worrying.
09:55Melvin, my boy, loves his gaming, you know, and he's always saying,
09:57oh, can I just borrow $20 to buy this thing?
09:59I don't even know what he's buying, but it's a worry.
10:01Yeah, it sure is.
10:02Now, you also heard the boys talking about Betcha,
10:04that's a sports betting company run by a company in New Zealand called Entame,
10:07which also owns the TAB.
10:09We got in touch with them and they said,
10:11we recognise community concern about gambling, advertising,
10:14and continually review our approach to ensure that it is responsible.
10:19Just quickly on Rainbet, that company from the Caribbean that was paying all of those students,
10:24we did approach them and they did not get back to us.
10:27Well, Paddy, here's what happens when things do go bad.
10:29Kieran Jenkins is now 30.
10:31He placed his first bet when he was 22.
10:34For the past five years, he's known he's addicted to online gambling
10:38and he's trying everything really hard to stop it and he just can't.
10:43He wants to talk about it on national television because he wants others to know about gambling
10:47so they don't get sucked in because what's happened to him, as he puts it, was a big mistake.
10:53I started running about a year ago after finding a group that specialises in recovering addicts running.
11:12And it's been a game changer, a lifesaver for me.
11:17I think the urge to gamble is definitely prevented from the running.
11:21But I do think about the mistakes I've made and the amount I've gambled throughout the years.
11:27You beat yourself up a lot, eh?
11:29I do.
11:30Every day.
11:33Yeah.
11:34Guilt.
11:35Shame.
11:36Yeah.
11:37I can see it on your face.
11:38It's part of it.
11:42When was the last time you gambled?
11:44It would have been Monday.
11:46Wednesday today.
11:48Do you feel like gambling today?
11:50Yeah, most mornings I wake up and it's the first thing I think of.
11:55A tightness in my chest.
11:57It's my body heating up.
12:00It's a physical sensation.
12:01It's a physical sensation for sure.
12:04Yeah.
12:05Either I act on it or I don't.
12:08And when you do act on it, what do you do?
12:12I sports bet.
12:14I play online casinos.
12:17The action of winning and losing the adrenaline pump and dump is purely feeling.
12:29Emotion.
12:31How long would a session like that last?
12:35Purely depends.
12:36I've gambled up to 15, 16 hours before in one session.
12:41Then you have to go to work when I've hit zero again.
12:44And no sleep.
12:45I don't feel great.
12:46It feels like I'm coming off a drug.
12:50When you're in the middle of that stretch, why do you keep going?
12:54Why don't you stop?
12:55I can't stop.
12:57100% addicted to gambling.
12:59I've tried so many different things to stop.
13:03I've tried literally everything and I still feel that urge.
13:06How have you been since we last broke?
13:10Pretty good.
13:11It's been a couple of weeks.
13:13But yeah, I've been up and down with the gambling.
13:16How many Karens are there?
13:19Too many.
13:20Compared to other addictions, what's it like to treat?
13:23People who have experienced other substance issues, they're like, you know what, I could do alcohol, I could get through methamphetamine, I could get through cocaine, but gambling is how the claw.
13:38They tell you that gambling's harder to ditch than meth.
13:42Yeah.
13:43And the online landscape is just coming in sideways.
13:46So anyone who's trying to make some changes in that, it almost feels like you're going to trick it left, right and centre.
13:52They can't escape it.
13:53Yeah.
13:58These advertisements is like putting a drink on the bar for an alcoholic, right?
14:03Yep.
14:05And so now there's legislation proposed which will bring even more of that, more advertisements.
14:12What will that do to the people that you're trying to heal from their gambling addictions?
14:17It's opening up a landscape of a little bit of a sinkhole for people who are trying to get out.
14:30What has gambling cost you?
14:33Close to a million dollars, my own money.
14:36That must be almost everything you've ever earned.
14:39A large portion of it.
14:41What does it feel like to say that figure out loud though?
14:43It's an eye-watering amount of money.
14:46It's life-changing money.
14:48Money that I could have spent on pursuing my future.
14:53What else does it cost you apart from money?
14:55Physically, I'm stressed all the time.
15:00I have bouts of depression.
15:04Suicidal thoughts, common.
15:08Anxiety.
15:10Yeah, a lot.
15:11Paddy spoke with a bunch of young students from Otago who are kind of ten years younger than you.
15:18And they all are into gambling, online gambling, sports betting.
15:23Yeah.
15:24Making money from it.
15:26Ten years further down the track, is there anything that you would say to them?
15:31It's this very slippery slope and you should try and catch it before it becomes a real issue.
15:36It's a fine line between doing it for fun and becoming addicted to it.
15:40It can happen very quickly.
15:42How quickly did it happen to you?
15:44Almost immediately.
15:46Within six months I was gambling all of my paychecks.
15:49It's ruined my life so far.
15:51I just want to own a house.
15:55I want to live like a normal human being.
15:58Go and do groceries without having to worry about my bank balance because I've gambled half of it.
16:03Go and get my car fixed or even get a new car.
16:05You know, take holidays, take control of my finances again.
16:12How much do you run now?
16:14Probably about 40 to 50 kilometres a week.
16:17Turns out you're really good at it too.
16:20I'm pretty good at it.
16:22Yeah.
16:24You recently won a half?
16:25I did, yeah.
16:26That must feel good.
16:27It did feel very good, yeah.
16:28Sense of achievement.
16:29I haven't failed for a very long time.
16:31Is that part of your future then, do you think, without gambling?
16:35Yeah, I'll keep going.
16:36Keep running.
16:43Well, one area where Kieran is really lucky, Patty, is that he has a boss who knows about his gambling addiction.
16:50His boss actually takes control of Kieran's finances, gives him an allowance of $400 a week,
16:55out of which he has to pay for groceries.
16:58The rest of it goes on gambling.
17:00One time, Kieran said, I want to take control back of my finances.
17:05He did, and he blew $70,000 of savings in one month.
17:09Wow.
17:10Thank you, Paula.
17:11That really was an incredible, incredible story.
17:13Alright, coming up.
17:14Paula meets two women who have been through hell and back with gambling.
17:18And what are authorities doing about this new chaos?
17:21And can easily bought fake urine really pass a drug test?
17:26Karen's investigation takes her all over the country to find out.
17:30Alright, shi ora kiwi and welcome back to Patty Gower Has Issues.
17:41We are looking at the damage that the rise of online gambling is doing to our country,
17:46and now it is time to go behind the issue.
17:49Okay, so Ministry of Health figures show us that almost $2.8 billion was lost to gambling in just the past year,
17:59and those same government figures show that nearly half, half of all young people have gambled in the past year.
18:06And these young people are going pretty hard at it too.
18:09Teenage and 20-somethings make up a quarter of all moderate to high-risk gamblers.
18:16Now, researchers are warning of a gateway gambling drug through kids' gaming.
18:21What we've been talking about, loot boxes.
18:23Our classification office has called for there to be warnings on games to, and I quote,
18:29mitigate harm from gambling-like content, such as loot boxes.
18:33That, though, was in 2019, six years ago, and nothing has happened.
18:39Elsewhere, though, Belgium has effectively banned them,
18:42while in the UK, other European countries and Australia have warnings and age restrictions on them.
18:49Then comes online casinos.
18:52It is currently illegal to advertise here in NZ, but there are thousands,
18:57yes, thousands of them available to us,
19:00advertised through social media, by influencers, and on offshore websites.
19:05No harm minimisation, no tax paid, no consumer protection rules.
19:10The ultimate Wild West.
19:12And they make gambling Kiwias.
19:15Look at one of the most popular Kiwis treasures.
19:18But they are actually based over here on the tax-free Channel Islands of Alderney.
19:25But regulation is coming.
19:28The online casino gambling bill is coming,
19:31and this will allow up to 15 online casinos in New Zealand.
19:36And these licensed casinos will pay tax, they will have age verification,
19:40and they will pay a gambling harm levy.
19:43And they will be able to advertise with rules that are not yet decided.
19:49The fine for unlicensed casino advertising will also rocket up to $5 million,
19:54from just $5,000 at the moment.
19:56And crucially, a lot of these changes come back to that tax I mentioned.
20:01The government wants a big collect itself.
20:04We don't know exactly how much, but government departments and government figures
20:07have used anywhere between $35 and $179 million a year.
20:13And controversially, this money will not go back to the community projects
20:17like it does with pokies now.
20:19It's all about revenue collecting for the government.
20:22Now, the idea is to create a controlled casino environment,
20:27but the fear is that this could create a flood of mainstream advertising
20:31for the up to 15 online casinos that win the licences.
20:36It is a gamble, and the stakes are high.
20:39In this next story, Paula meets two women who lost it all,
20:43thanks to online casinos.
20:45The consequences of getting into gambling have been catastrophic.
20:52It started in 2022 when Samantha got an email from the casino,
20:57a $1,000 welcome.
20:59It had been a rough week, and I just wanted to do something that was mindless.
21:04And she walked to an online virtual casino.
21:09She chose slots.
21:10A bit of fun at first.
21:11Within weeks, it had become a daily habit.
21:14I would wake up in the morning thinking about it.
21:17I would be holding my breath at night waiting for my husband to go to bed.
21:23And I would do it two or three in the morning until I ran out of money.
21:28As much as $3,000 in a night, draining their savings accounts,
21:33even the accounts she'd set up for her grandchildren,
21:36maxing out the credit card and overdrafts.
21:39And when that was all gone, I then stole it from my employer.
21:46The first time you did that...
21:48Oh, it made me ill.
21:50Just the guilt, and I couldn't believe that I'd done this thing.
22:00Donna couldn't believe what she did either.
22:03You can tell by the way she speaks of her former self
22:05as if it's a different person.
22:07She was a liar.
22:09She manipulated people.
22:11She did whatever she could to, I guess, get money.
22:16I borrowed money off so many people,
22:18and they thought it was for other reasons.
22:22How much money?
22:24$115,000.
22:29It was online slots for her too, particularly a fishing game
22:33she would play in bed at night for hours on end,
22:36her husband asleep next to her,
22:39sinking thousands of dollars a week.
22:42I would have nights of not sleeping,
22:45trying to think about how I was going to get more money.
22:48Did you think in your own mind
22:51that you might be able to dig yourself out of this?
22:54Always.
22:55By gambling more?
22:57Yep.
22:58So did Samantha.
22:59But the morning after she stole from her boss,
23:01she drove to work panicking.
23:03No one had noticed.
23:05So ten days later, she stole again, and again, and again.
23:10How much in the end?
23:14$360,000.
23:16Her accounts show the withdrawals quickly increasing
23:21from one or two hundred to three hundred, five hundred.
23:25The draw and the desire to be there was so incredibly strong.
23:32It overrode everything.
23:34She resigned, but unable to tell her boss what she'd done,
23:38left clues, and everything unravelled.
23:41I was absolutely convinced I was going to jail.
23:44What was the sentence instead?
23:46I received five months community detention.
23:50I just had a seven till seven curfew every day.
23:54How was that enforced?
23:56I wore an ankle bracelet.
23:59What does that feel like?
24:02Humiliating.
24:04It's a constant reminder of what you've done.
24:07Donna hit a different rock bottom,
24:09having to admit everything to her husband.
24:12I said I owe around about $110,000 in money,
24:17and he was just like, you're kidding me.
24:19Do you remember that call?
24:22Yeah, it's one of those ones where people say their life's turned upside down,
24:28and it just totally did.
24:29I couldn't think.
24:31I felt betrayed.
24:33Donna withdrew her KiwiSaver funds on hardship grounds,
24:37faced the people she'd borrowed from,
24:39and told them they would get their money back.
24:42Do you recall going through the accounts?
24:45Yeah, it made me sick.
24:48I wondered how the bank could allow someone to just have that many transactions.
24:54Like, there's probably over a hundred transaction deposits into the online casino a week.
25:00Donna has just celebrated a year free of gambling.
25:03I never, ever want to go back to that person.
25:05I've been given a second opportunity in life to right my wrongs, to get everything right,
25:11and to never, ever go back to being that person again, or I'll lose everything.
25:15Through pure fear of consequences, Samantha resists the emails and phone calls she still gets from the online casinos.
25:23But even gambling free, things are not great.
25:27And I have to live with the shame and the humiliation and the absolute loathing every day.
25:35What do you say to people who received that email that was the one that made you start that night?
25:42Delete. Delete. Just don't. It's not worth it.
25:48So for Samantha All Up, including the legal fees, her gambling addiction cost her half a million dollars.
25:56Whoa. But it cost her a lot more than money.
25:58And she and all of the problem gamblers that I met are dead against the government's plans for 15 new online casinos.
26:06They say it's going to make an existing terrible problem so much worse.
26:10I mean, it just seems like such a stupid idea. Why are the government doing it?
26:14They think that it will be good to regulate an industry that they currently don't control.
26:20But of course the critics say it's just going to multiply the issue.
26:24And don't forget that tax that they're going to get from it.
26:27Alright, coming up. Can we step up and control these gambling outfits that are preying on Kiwi young and old?
26:34And Karen gets scientific to investigate the world of fake urine.
26:39Why is it even a thing? And should it be legal?
26:42Go to whānau and welcome back to Padigawa Has Issues.
26:55Now the Department of Internal Affairs is cracking down on this where they can under the current law.
27:00They have received complaints about 41 different offshore casinos, 41 of them.
27:06And they've fined one of them actually, Spinbet, $60,000 for a series of breaches,
27:11including doing things like giving away New Zealand products as prizes.
27:15Now Spinbet are based in the Caribbean and they have not paid their fine or even bothered to respond to the DIA.
27:24And that really says it all, I think.
27:26It certainly does. The DIA is also cracking down on the influencers who illegally advertise gambling to their followers on social media.
27:34They've had heaps of complaints. They've warned people. They've sent infringement notices.
27:39They're currently investigating eight influencers and have fined four of them multiple fines of $5,000 a pop.
27:46Paddy, the fact that they have to keep on fining them shows that for these influencers it's just cost of business.
27:52Sure. Now under the new legislation that is coming, the DIA will have more powers and updated rules.
27:59They'll be able to give bigger fines to influencers going up from $5,000 per postal reel to $300,000 if they take them through court.
28:08And takedown notices will come in. They'll be able to serve notices to Google and Meta and work with them to actually require influencers to takedown contact,
28:18which is basically hitting them where it hurts.
28:20Because right now, anyone, anyone with an online profile is being targeted by these casinos.
28:26I myself have had five offers in just the past month, including this one from somewhere called Mr. Ben, for US dollars 1,000.
28:351,000 US bucks. That's about 1,700 New Zealand bucks, by the way, for just one Instagram post.
28:41Good money if you can get it, but obviously I don't want it.
28:44Yeah, well, just so you know, my handle is actually at Karen Olerius.
28:48Karen, Karen. It's the last show.
28:50Karen, the DIA are watching. The DIA are watching.
28:52Just joking.
28:53Okay. Now, the Minister responsible for gambling, the Minister of Internal Affairs,
28:58Brooke Van Valden, declined to come on tonight.
29:01However, we do have a Problem Gambling Foundation in New Zealand,
29:05and their advocacy and comms director is Andre Frood.
29:08Come on up, Andre.
29:12So, a couple of questions, really.
29:14And the first one is this.
29:16It seems to me like the gambling world in New Zealand is about to change.
29:20Up to 15 new online casinos, able to advertise and everything.
29:23What are Kiwi going to see?
29:25How's the world going to change?
29:27Well, it's a really good question.
29:29But I think what we will see is an absolute tsunami of advertising.
29:34You know, we're going to have up to 15 of these online casinos.
29:39The Minister's been quite clear that to get people, to channel people into these licensed operators,
29:45they want to allow them to advertise.
29:47We don't agree with that.
29:49We want to see gambling advertising banned full stop.
29:52Sure.
29:53But, absolutely, it's going to change things up.
29:55And in lieu of a ban, because the government isn't going to do that,
29:58they're going to let this happen.
30:00What would you like to see?
30:01What sort of controls and things would you like to see to sort of hammer down on the tsunami?
30:07Well, there have to be really robust controls.
30:10And, you know, already, currently, we're seeing overseas offshore casinos advertising to New Zealanders.
30:18Well, it's illegal.
30:19So they shouldn't be doing it.
30:21So we're already seeing it.
30:22So something has to be done.
30:24There's got to be some teeth behind it.
30:26So the DIA need to be resourced to be able to monitor what's going on with it.
30:32And they shouldn't be able to target children.
30:34They shouldn't be able to offer inducements.
30:36There are so many things on the wish list.
30:38Banning is the top of the list.
30:41But if we can't have that, then there's got to be some really, really good guardrails around this advertising,
30:47because it's just going to be a tsunami.
30:49And just finally, it is scary, isn't it?
30:51Yes, it is, from a harm minimisation perspective.
30:54You know, the bill leaves to separate regulations all the really tough things that we need
31:00around advertising, harm minimisation and consumer protections.
31:04So they're in regulations that sit outside the primary legislation.
31:08So there's a lot we don't actually know.
31:10And it is concerning.
31:11All right.
31:12Well, thank you very much for your time.
31:14And continue your good mahi.
31:15Thank you very much.
31:16Andre Freed from the Problem Gambling Foundation.
31:19All right.
31:20Well, tonight, my issue was with online gambling.
31:23And it is time for me to say the official stuff that I need to say.
31:27If you've been watching this and think you might need to talk to someone about gambling,
31:30the gambling helpline is free.
31:32You can call day or night 0800 654 655 or text them on 8006.
31:39Now, for me, it goes like this.
31:42We are facing an online gambling invasion.
31:45And yes, we do need to get some sort of control over this wild west out there.
31:51But if warnings and helplines like the information I just gave you are basically all will have
31:57to protect us, then all I've really got to say on this is good luck, New Zealand.
32:02Good luck, New Zealand.
32:07All right.
32:08Coming up, it is time for Karen O'Leary's investigation.
32:10Fake urine is used to pass drug tests.
32:13So why is it even legal?
32:15And can we ban it?
32:16Karen gets scientific and gets answers.
32:19Good luck, Kiwi, and welcome back to Patigawa Has Issues.
32:32Now, we are leaving online gambling behind now.
32:35And Karen, you've had an incredibly successful season so far.
32:38You've lowered the price of butter.
32:39You've got Wilson Parking to change.
32:41You took on Jetstar's weight scales.
32:44How could you possibly, possibly top that?
32:48Well, Paddy, look, I'll be honest.
32:50People do sometimes say that I like to take the piss just for a bit of fun.
32:53But I can assure you that tonight I'm going to be taking the piss quite seriously.
33:03If there's one thing you know about me, it's that I love talking to people.
33:06And normally, I meet my issue habit.
33:08But this week I got an email from a person who didn't want to be identified for personal reasons
33:12with an issue I couldn't believe.
33:14They said that drug tests have been fraudulently passed using synthetic urine that you can buy over-the-counter.
33:21Surely, that can't be true.
33:28Well, here you go.
33:30Introducing a urine fetish kit.
33:33Available over-the-counter for £149.99.
33:36Perfect for having a good time and pretending you haven't had a good time.
33:40But will it pass the test?
33:42I'm going to make sure it's all dissolved.
33:43Mmm.
33:44It's a pass.
33:45Negative.
33:46Negative for drugs.
33:47Good on me.
33:48Well, that's me testing it myself.
33:49But surely, the experts can pick it up.
33:50Synthetic urine is very challenging to test for because it is designed for a drug test.
33:55I'm going to make sure it's all dissolved.
33:58It's a pass.
33:59Negative.
34:00Negative for drugs.
34:01Good on me.
34:02Well, that's me testing it myself.
34:03But surely, the experts can pick it up.
34:04Synthetic urine is very challenging to test for because it is designed to mimic exactly the urine.
34:21Dr Meena is one of Australasia's leading experts when it comes to urine testing.
34:26Would synthetic urine, false wee-wees, would that pass a urine drug test?
34:31Absolutely, it would, yes.
34:33We are not specifically testing for synthetic urine, which is very challenging.
34:38How do we fix that?
34:39It is not part of the standard that Australia and New Zealand share in drug testing.
34:45And more need to be done to ensure that we are analysing proper sample before we are issuing a report.
34:51I believe it is like the elephant in the room.
34:54If you had elephant urine and human urine, could you tell the difference between the two?
34:59I haven't tested elephant urine before.
35:01Neither.
35:02So maybe I will qualify to answer that question.
35:04Yeah.
35:05A lot of people I've talked to have been really surprised that this product even exists, let alone as being used for drug testing.
35:12But it does, and it is.
35:14So let's go behind the issue.
35:15Urine drug tests, or wee's twiddlies, are actually used quite a lot in New Zealand.
35:22From people ordered to take drug tests by the courts, to people who need a test for operating heavy machinery, to elite athletes representing our country.
35:30Go the Blackbirds!
35:31When I went to the Big Three about their experience spotting synthetic urine, Oranga Tamariki politely declined to be part of the story.
35:39WorkSafe said that they don't give advice about drug testing, so also didn't want to talk.
35:43While the Sports Integrity Commission jumped to help, saying athletes can be tested at any time, in or out of competition, by trained officials.
35:50And while they haven't had any Kiwi athletes attempting to use synthetic urine here in Aotearoa, it has happened internationally, famously, by hand of God Maradona, and bite your ear off Mike Tyson.
36:00Now, there has already been an attempt to restrict the sale of synthetic urine in 2021 with National's Matt Ducey's Members Bill.
36:08However, it was thoroughly voted down.
36:11Boo!
36:12And hasn't sniffed the light of day since.
36:14So, where does this leave me?
36:16Treating a drug test can have massive and dangerous ramifications, and we know synthetic urine can be used to do it.
36:22So the question remains, why is it allowed to be sold?
36:30I mean, it's serious, isn't it, given what you can use the stuff to get out of, and you can buy this.
36:36Absolutely, you can.
36:37You can go to Cosmic, the hemp store, Shosha, you can get it online.
36:40Um, and obviously none of the people, none of those retailers did actually want to talk to me about the sale of synthetic urine.
36:45I mean, it's marketed officially by the shops as being for fetish use, or for product development for nappies, or detox and testing.
36:53But you can also see things on their websites like protect your privacy and medical history.
36:58So it seems like it's a pretty open secret as to what most people are going to be using this for.
37:02All right, well, coming up, Karen finds out the truth about the legit uses of fake urine, and meets the MP, who tried to get it back.
37:21Kia ora koutou, and welcome back to Padigawa Has Issues.
37:24So, Karen, there's fake wheeze being sold over the counter to cheat drug tests, and nobody is doing anything about it except you.
37:32What are you going to do?
37:33Well, obviously, I wanted to see what the professional drug testers have to say about it.
37:36I mean, first and foremost, and if there is a legitimate reason for this product existing.
37:41Hello.
37:42Hi, Ken.
37:43Hi, how are you?
37:44Karen.
37:45Hi, how are you?
37:46Karen.
37:47Have you heard about people using synthetic urine?
37:50Yes.
37:51Oh, we have.
37:52Yes, yes.
37:53And what do you think of it?
37:54Oh, look, it's cheating.
37:55It's cheating.
37:56And if you're cheating a drug test, you're potentially affecting someone's life.
37:59But, Jen, have you seen one of these?
38:02Yep, prosthetic penis, yep.
38:04I've seen plenty of those.
38:05But does it work?
38:06Like, would it work to...?
38:08Oh, look, there's a risk that they could get away with it, but it's still very challenging,
38:13with a properly trained technician, to be able to produce a urine sample and get away with it.
38:16Come on through.
38:17So now, what would happen in here?
38:19Okay, I'm going to ask you to produce some urine.
38:21Yes.
38:22Up to at least that line.
38:23Alright, well, I'll just go give it a go.
38:25Perfect.
38:26Cheers.
38:27Good luck.
38:29Oh, there's no door on the toilet.
38:30Oh.
38:31No, it's okay.
38:32Cozy.
38:33How common do you think it is?
38:34In this clinic, we had a person try and cheat with some synthetic urine today, but unfortunately...
38:36Today?
38:37Today?
38:38But the vessel they had it in actually burst, so they, um, synthetic urinated onto the seat.
38:43Where would you be standing to keep an eye on me?
38:45So I'd sort of stand just over in this area here.
38:47Yep.
38:48I'm no closer than a public urinal at a rugby match.
38:51Yes.
38:52You guys love standing at each other to go for a wee, don't you?
38:53It's a great way to talk to people, meet people.
38:55Is it?
38:56Yeah, superb.
38:57You do that, eh?
38:58Is that what you do?
38:59Give it a shake.
39:00There's a lot of integrity tests in relation to...
39:01Our guys are pretty well trained to pick up people that are fiddling around with anything
39:05other than a normal urine production.
39:07Yes.
39:08One of the first things they do is they do a visual check.
39:09Yes.
39:10So they look at it visually.
39:11They'll test the temperature on the hand to see if the temperature feels okay.
39:13Is that like when you're testing a baby's milk?
39:15Really similar.
39:16On your elbow?
39:17Yeah.
39:18And you just pour some of it actually on your skin?
39:19No, you don't actually pour it, sorry.
39:20No, you just hold the cup.
39:21Sorry, I might...
39:22We try and punch the wheeze.
39:23I was going to say, I think that's a bit of an issue for you guys.
39:24That's a bit gross.
39:25It warms the touch.
39:26That's when you start to think, hang on, this might be false urine.
39:29Yeah.
39:30If there's any concerns, we'd say that's an invalid test.
39:32Right.
39:33We're going to invalidate it.
39:34We're not going to test it at all.
39:35Yes.
39:36If you wanted to go through a drug test, you'd have to provide another sample.
39:38Chances are you wasn't as empty by that stage.
39:40It is, it's totally, it's completely empty.
39:42You're not going to be able to use that again, so this time it's going to be your actual urine.
39:49As always, this isn't a one-sided issue.
39:51Synthetic urine is sold as a fetish product, but is that just a cover?
39:55Morgan Penn is a renowned sexologist who wants to normalise the way we talk about this stuff.
40:00How common do you think it is?
40:01What I have seen is that it is quite common.
40:03If, say, I had ten people in my house, how many of them would be?
40:08Probably one.
40:09Oh.
40:10It's really hard, right?
40:11Because people have to be honest to get a good gauge on these.
40:13A lot of people aren't honest about this kind of thing.
40:15And who's out there door knocking?
40:17I would like to be.
40:18Okay.
40:19Maybe we should.
40:20We could.
40:21We need more data.
40:22I'd come with you.
40:23Okay, great.
40:25Karen, the question that every woman wants an answer to, what was it like to pee like a man?
40:31Well, I mean, that's a good question.
40:32I felt, you know, kind of way more powerful and like I'd just got a massive pay rise actually.
40:38But no, seriously though, remember there was an attempt to get this stuff banned four years ago,
40:43but every party except for National thoroughly voted it down and out of parliament.
40:47So I wanted to see where things are at and standing now, and if I can get people talking about it again.
40:52Matt Doocy was on the front lines of banning synthetic urine in 2021.
40:57When this bill first got pulled, the media wrote a title, Doocy taking the piss.
41:02As a local MP for Waimakarere, I had a constituent who came and saw me.
41:07Now, he owned a big agricultural contracting business.
41:11He had some of his staff that had used synthetic urine to pass a drug test when they'd actually been using cannabis.
41:20And I was quite surprised how accessible synthetic urine was.
41:25But not only that, what really annoyed me was how openly they were flouting this product as a way of cheating a drug test.
41:34The Labor government said it's okay, that is disgusting.
41:40The Greens were one of the four parties to vote his bill down, and Kahurangi Carter stands by the decision.
41:46I think that if people are trying to cheat a drug test, then there's some deeper issues that we need to focus on.
41:53I was disappointed the other parties didn't support it.
41:56But really, the challenge is back on them now, that they need to think about whether we want these sold openly,
42:03over-the-counter.
42:05We would say, no thank you, let's focus on the real issues here.
42:09This is tinkering on the edges, and there is some really important work that we need to do to focus on harm reduction.
42:17People want us to take a health approach rather than punitive.
42:23At the moment, with all these punitive measures, it is drugs that are winning the war on drugs.
42:29Well look, we can have a big philosophical discussion about drugs and the legislation.
42:35I firmly believe that we shouldn't be openly selling a product as a way of cheating a drug test.
42:43My goal was to start a conversation, and I think I've done that.
42:47No matter where you stand on this issue, let's keep talking.
42:51So good. Alright, I think we can call that a result.
42:58You got this fake urine back on the agenda.
43:02You started a conversation, you raised awareness.
43:04Well done, Karen.
43:05Yeah, I had never heard of this issue before, till now.
43:08Good job.
43:09Thank you. I mean, I just think seeing people getting to see me in my undies is definitely a result.
43:13Alright, brilliant work.
43:15Now, thank you to everyone who shared their issue with us tonight and across this series.
43:20Thank you so much to Karen, of course, for all your money, and to Paula.
43:23Absolutely incredible work.
43:25Now, thank you to our studio audience who've just been fantastic.
43:29That's the end of this series for this year.
43:32But you can email me anytime with your issues.
43:35patty at pattygower.kiwi
43:38I am Patty Gower, and I still have issues because we still have issues.
43:44Cheers.
43:51I've got no issues with New Zealand On Air.
43:55New Zealand On Air.
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