Paddy Gower Has Issues Season 2 Episode 3

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Transcript

00:00Hello Kiwis, I am Paddy Gower and I have got issues on this show.

00:13We investigate issues, big and small, that are important to all of us.

00:18Tonight, controversial open plan classrooms are an experiment the government has finally

00:23scrapped.

00:24But what about the thousands of kids still stuck in them?

00:27And if you get a car park ticket, the price seems ridiculously high, how can they charge

00:33so much and do you have to pay?

00:36Karen is on the case.

00:49And I've made it, I've made it.

00:52Tonight, my issue is with our classrooms.

00:55We've got what I call a major learning problem in this country and a lot of it is to do with

01:01the classrooms themselves.

01:02We did an experiment on our kids and that experiment has failed.

01:07I am talking about open plan classrooms, also known as modern learning environments or MLEs.

01:13Up to 90 kids in a class, multiple teachers, noisy as hell and some of them are as big as

01:20a barn.

01:21There are many kids, parents and teachers who reckon that they suck.

01:27Now, the government has officially agreed that they suck, admits there was never any solid

01:32evidence they would work and has just banned open plan classrooms from ever being built in

01:37this country again.

01:38That is great.

01:40But what about all the kids that are still stuck in them?

01:43We've built hundreds and hundreds of these MLEs, billions and billions of dollars worth.

01:48Thousands of students are in them in primary schools, intermediates and in high schools.

01:53So it is not just a failed experiment on our kids.

01:56It is worse than that because it is all bricked and concreted in for generations to come.

02:01I am calling this our MLP, our major learning problem, and this really is an issue for all of us.

02:11Well, very lucky to be joined tonight by my good friend Karen O'Leary and of course Mel Chan-Green,

02:18my former colleague and now an expert in the education space.

02:21How are you?

02:22Well, good.

02:22Yeah, and that is kind of you to say, Patty.

02:24One of the issues that I constantly get in that space is about the issue you were just talking about,

02:30open plan classrooms.

02:32Parents saying that their kids have had a negative experience, but they're miffed because now the government

02:37has said that these classrooms are bad, but their kids are still in them.

02:42So what can they do?

02:43They can't just move to another school zone.

02:45So it's a case of a classic Kiwi postcode lottery.

02:48Yeah, I mean, I remember when I first heard about these, when they first started, you know,

02:51becoming a thing and I thought, actually, they seem to me like a really good idea.

02:55You know, they sort of seem to mirror what I was doing in early childhood education,

02:58you know, like a holistic learning based around children's interests and a team of teachers,

03:02you know.

03:02But then my son started at one of the first purpose-built schools like that.

03:07And the longer he was there, the more and more I just saw children falling off by the wayside.

03:11And it's not just the impact on the children, but teachers.

03:14You know, they're under so much pressure at the moment.

03:17And I felt some of that frustration firsthand, actually, back on AIM.

03:20I said something to upset one of them and I got a very angry message.

03:23But I got in touch and we actually talk to each other a lot now.

03:28We keep in contact.

03:29And she is in an MLE and she invited us to go and have a look.

03:33So this is the first time that we met in person.

03:36Thank you for coming down to Christchurch.

03:54Are we basically friends now?

03:55We are.

03:57We are, we are.

03:58Now, what is the basic narrative for Cinderella?

04:02It's perhaps no coincidence Clearview Primary is studying Cinderella.

04:08Their story is one of adversity and perseverance, too.

04:12What happens in the narrative?

04:14Their open plan classroom is so loud, they've had to move some students into the kitchen.

04:20Up to 90 kids, that's three classes, are expected to learn in this area.

04:25The design was signed off by the Ministry of Education 10 years ago.

04:28It's incredibly overwhelming and loud.

04:33It was unworkable, so teachers are making use of other spaces.

04:37Aren't we in a hallway right now?

04:40Yeah, we are.

04:41We used to at Clearview not have any doors at all through here.

04:45So we are thankful we do have some of these doors.

04:49So that you can make use of the hallway and the kitchen.

04:52Yeah.

04:53So that's lucky.

04:54Yeah.

04:54You consider that lucky?

04:55Yes, we do.

04:56I'm finding it actually really hard to hear you.

04:59How do you find it teaching?

05:00I find what we do in here is sometimes I'll teach in here, and we'll also have other colleagues

05:05in here, and you are competing with the noise.

05:08How do you think the kids feel?

05:10Exhausted.

05:11You can see them at the end of the day.

05:13And, you know, you think of our neurodivergent students is that they're looking around all

05:17the time at what's going on.

05:19There are two other teachers sharing the space, and Nicole likes collaboration, but says when

05:29it extends to three classes together, connection suffers.

05:33How do you know how those children are feeling when there are so many faces there?

05:39You just, you don't, you don't know half the time.

05:41You like to think you do.

05:43So I feel sometimes really guilty that I'm not able to connect with my students, like I

05:48have been in the past.

05:50Who would like to lead us through for karakia this morning?

05:53Gracie at the back.

05:55When you are ready.

05:56Do you think children could be getting lost in class?

06:01100%.

06:01Our quieter students can definitely go under the radar.

06:05The government shares Nicole's concerns.

06:07Soon after we filmed this interview, the Education Minister had this announcement.

06:12This government is calling time on open plan classrooms.

06:17We will no longer be building those barnyard-style open classrooms without any doors that separate

06:24classrooms.

06:25The evidence is quite clear that these classrooms are not optimal.

06:31Clearview Primary Principal Tim Lovelock agrees with that evidence, and wonders what the initial

06:36call to build open plan was based on.

06:39Do you think that this is evidence-based, or has it been an experiment?

06:45I would say this building, yes.

06:48So where does this leave this and other schools still stuck with open plan who want to put walls

06:54up?

06:55Because here, an architect just delivered this damning report.

06:58And he said, your acoustic tiling is poor.

07:02Your acoustic treatment on the walls is terrible.

07:05The wall layout just doesn't help with the noise flow.

07:09There's too many sharp angles.

07:11There's funnels, noise through spaces.

07:13So far, schools have been told funding walls to fix a space not fit for purpose will need

07:18to come out of school's usual capital expenditure or capex budgets.

07:22When we get our next capital works money in two years' time, roughly, we're going to have

07:26to spend a whole lot retrofitting that block.

07:28The teachers here say they're making it work.

07:33But for some families, that doesn't work for them.

07:36We've kind of dubbed him in our family the chicken shed of learning.

07:40George Berry has an eight-year-old at a different Christchurch school, in a class with up to

07:4570 children over multiple ages.

07:48He wants to pull him out.

07:50In short, if we could make a change for him relatively quickly and give him a better environment,

07:55we would do it for sure.

07:56He had noticed his son was able to wander around instead of learning.

08:00All of a sudden, he could get up and walk away and go off into another classroom, or

08:04he could do other things if he wasn't quite interested in things.

08:07And this is at primary school?

08:09This is at primary school, yeah, absolutely.

08:10When the learning environment's not right, invariably they manifest in poor behaviour,

08:15right?

08:15So then it becomes challenging for everybody else.

08:17George wants to see existing open plan classrooms reverted to single classes.

08:23Absolutely.

08:23It's a taxpayer issue, it's a budget and a book scenario for the government, but I would

08:28absolutely say if you don't pay for it today, society will pay for it in the future.

08:36Patty, it is so clear that they are doing a great job at Clearview Primary.

08:41They have great teachers, and the problem is that that classroom is just making it so

08:46much harder than it needs to be.

08:47Yeah, I mean, like you said, the teachers are always going to do the best that they possibly

08:50can in whatever environment they're given, but they deserve a better environment.

08:53Okay, Mel, well, you're all over this issue with your new podcast, School Shorts, which

08:57specialises in education.

08:59What can a school or a community do if they're stuck with one of these things?

09:03Well, they're building walls in these big barn spaces, it's as simple as that really, except

09:08it's not as simple as that, because a lot of them don't have the money to do that.

09:12I went to Christchurch to two schools that are connected together.

09:16They're an identical footprint, side by side, but they have different barriers to the problem

09:21with their open plan classrooms.

09:22What are you guys doing?

09:31We're actually just moving classroom equipment out of these classrooms here, because we're

09:34making way for some construction.

09:37This is round two of building walls at Shirley Boys.

09:41How do you feel about the walls going in?

09:44Pretty good, honestly.

09:46Before the walls were up in the other spaces, it was really hard to focus and stuff.

09:51The ministry signed off on this open plan classroom design back in 2019, when the school had

09:57to be rebuilt on a new site after the earthquake.

10:00You know, it felt to me like maybe it was designed in metres, but built in feet.

10:06Deputy Principal Garth Jones says lessons had to become internet-focused to keep the noise

10:11down.

10:12But as a teacher, you don't want that.

10:14You want students to be challenging each other's ideas.

10:17You want interaction with your students when you're a teacher.

10:20That's the joy of teaching.

10:22So were students let down?

10:25Oh, I believe so, yes.

10:27How does that feel as a teacher?

10:29Oh, it's heartbreaking.

10:30We had a number of staff that were visibly upset when they were recounting examples of

10:38how their teaching's been impacted.

10:40Staff had predicted the problems as soon as the school was built, when Media Studies students

10:46covered the topic in this now prophetic documentary.

10:48We will now ask Mr. Ambrose why we are transitioning to a modern learning environment.

10:55There is no educational research that supports that a modern learning environment is a better

11:00environment for students and staff to learn in.

11:02This is pure economics.

11:05And if I were to put my crystal ball forward 20 years, I would say a lot of schools will

11:10be working hard to raise money to put partitions on walls.

11:13Sure enough, only six years later, the school has carved a chunk in their rainy day fund to

11:19spend $800,000 on walls with more to come.

11:23Excuse me, sorry to interrupt.

11:27Can I ask, how did you feel when this wall went back up?

11:31It was actually very exciting.

11:33I may have got a little bit overexcited to be fair.

11:35Oh really?

11:36What do you mean overexcited?

11:38I may have actually hugged the wall and admitted that to my principal.

11:42How do you hug a wall?

11:44Well, you just sort of have to go, I'm glad you're here.

11:47If that's the reaction to a wall, just imagine if it was new IT like the school had hoped

11:54to spend it on, but that was only going to be possible if they had ministry help with

11:58the remedial work.

12:00In an ideal world, we would love some help financially.

12:05At this stage, that hasn't been forthcoming.

12:10Have you tried?

12:11We have tried, yes.

12:12You don't have to go far to find that Shirley Boyce is lucky to at least have the option

12:17of self-funding.

12:19The school shares a site with Avonside Girls, which has a mirror image design.

12:23Take a right at the foyer with Principal Catherine Law, and you'll find a different school with

12:29a different story.

12:30Can you just point to all the different areas that we're actually hearing noise from right

12:34now?

12:35Okay, so right now we've got a psychology class just in that space there, and you can

12:40hear the teacher talking and hear them.

12:42And we've got a junior class just through the absorbor there, and you can hear them quite

12:46clearly, having a discussion and laughing and talking, and that's what you'd hope students

12:50would be doing.

12:51But obviously that's now disturbing the class over there who are working quite quietly and

12:56silently together in groups on a project.

12:59And that's all despite spending $50,000 on absorber walls.

13:04They're a sticking plaster.

13:05They're not actually solving the problem.

13:08Are you envious of the walls that have gone up at Shirley Boys?

13:12Very.

13:13One of the big differences you'll be aware of between boys and girls' schools, and again,

13:18you know, wonderful for the boys' schools, is they have huge old boys' networks and a

13:23lot of money that's left to boys' schools in general.

13:27And, you know, girls' schools just don't have that.

13:30But the question is, should they be paying for that sort of thing anyway?

13:32Should that money be being used for that when this is a problem that was posed on school

13:38design?

13:39Now that the ministry says they will be building no more of these open plan designs, Catherine

13:44Law wants ministry help to fix schools that still have them.

13:48It's not to blame anybody, but nonetheless, the decisions were made.

13:53And actually now we know that for teaching and learning, these aren't the right things.

13:56And actually, as a ministry and as a school and as a government, we should partner together.

14:00What kind of teaching and learning spaces do we want for our young people, what's going

14:03to be the best?

14:04So yes, come and help us.

14:06Come and help us do it so that we've got those spaces.

14:10The ministry has funded some schools.

14:13We're driving now to Rangai Ora High School, and they got 500 grand to go towards a $1.5 million

14:20spend to put walls back up.

14:23These pictures were taken before the walls went up.

14:26The breakout spaces you see had no ceilings.

14:28Most of our teachers didn't use this space.

14:31So whilst they were timetabled in here, they went to the far corners of the school to find

14:36the coldest and most unused classrooms, and they taught there instead.

14:40You know, with 500 kids in here, you could imagine transitioning and learning became, you

14:45know, fairly noisy and fairly difficult to manage.

14:47There were 500 kids in this one big space.

14:50Learning-wise, it really wasn't great.

14:52You never got that one-on-one time with your teacher, obviously.

14:54Trying to focus in class was not on the table whatsoever.

14:58And yeah, I just think it was for everybody.

15:00It was just really a struggle.

15:02Bruce says the ministry sympathised and helped fund new walls.

15:06The building wasn't functioning as well as it possibly could, so it was in their best interest

15:11to put funds into this.

15:14These few walls essentially have effect to almost 1,800 students a day as they come through

15:20this building.

15:20Yeah.

15:21And we're seeing happiness, achievement and attendance all skyrocket.

15:24So it's worth it, but it has taken away from other potential projects.

15:29Yeah, as it always does.

15:30Do you think the ministry should help other schools that need remedial work?

15:35Ah, yes, I do.

15:38Well, you can't get much clearer than please help us from the principal there, you know.

15:44And this is a crucial question for the minister.

15:46Is the government going to step in and help those schools that want to fix?

15:51Yeah, well, I will ask the minister, Erica Stanford, that because she will be coming on the show

15:55later on.

15:56And Mel, important to note here that not all MLEs are bad, are they?

16:00Yeah, I genuinely think that there are some schools where they work.

16:03Well, what would be an example of when they do work?

16:05Well, I visited Te Aumarama in Hamilton and they really enjoy them.

16:10But even they would admit that there are all the puzzle pieces to get right.

16:14You know, there's good leadership, good classroom design and the resources to make it work as well.

16:19Yeah, I've actually spoken, though, to the other side of the coin, which is parents who

16:24feel that these are damaging for their children.

16:27And they come from one of our most vulnerable learning communities, our most vulnerable learners.

16:31That is the neurodiversal, neurodivergent.

16:34So we'll be looking at that after the break where I meet two kids on their way to great

16:39futures, partly because their parents were able to get them out of the chaos of their open

16:44plan classrooms.

16:45And Karen meets Liv, who is angry about her $85 fine for Wilson car parking, and the lawyer

16:51who knows whether that is legal or not.

16:54Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues.

17:07And today we are talking about the open plan experiment that was foisted on our schools

17:1215 years ago.

17:14And now it is time to go behind the issues.

17:18Okay, well, open plan classrooms have been around for ages, but they were rolled out as

17:25modern learning environments, or MLEs, in 2011 by then Education Minister Hekia Parata.

17:31Now, their classrooms were part of a new strategy for 21st century learning to allow for flexibility,

17:39student-led learning and collaborative teaching.

17:42Now, as the policy progressed and these barn-like classrooms started popping up absolutely everywhere.

17:50So where did the evidence come from for this classroom revolution?

17:54Well, we asked the Ministry and get this.

17:57One of the main sources that they cited was a TED Talk by an American, a school architect

18:03called Prakash Nair.

18:05Now, as for solid evidence, the Minister of Education, Erica Stanford herself, six weeks ago

18:10said there was not any.

18:13Now, despite this, for about a decade, building open plan classrooms was mandatory in this country.

18:21And new school builds really picked up pace after the Christchurch earthquake.

18:25And Hekia Parata announced more than $1 billion to rebuild schools in the city, and Christchurch

18:33became MLE central.

18:35Now, here is a really, really important figure.

18:38Between 2011 and 2016, $5 billion, $5 billion was spent on open plan classrooms around the country.

18:47$5 billion worth of these classrooms in just five years.

18:52An MLE explosion.

18:54Now, this is a very important number because it's the only decent figure on MLEs that the

18:59Ministry of Education is really giving out.

19:01So how much taxpayer money has been spent, they won't say.

19:05How many MLEs are there in this country?

19:08It seems that the Ministry might not even know.

19:11Now, in recent years, opinions started to turn against these things, and the open plan

19:17classroom walk-back began.

19:19In 2022, then Education Minister Chris Hipkins said schools didn't have to have them anymore,

19:25so they were no longer mandatory.

19:26And then this July, Education Minister Erica Stanford announced that she was calling time

19:33on open plan classrooms.

19:35So from mandatory to a ban, that is one hell of a walk-back right there.

19:40And the new plan is for modular or single-cell classrooms, also known as a classroom.

19:47That is great, but my issue is this.

19:50What about all the kids that are stuck in the billions of dollars worth of MLEs that have

19:55already been built?

19:57Now, our most vulnerable learners are the neurodivergent, like ADHD, autism and dyslexia.

20:04That's one in five of our kids.

20:06So I went to check out what they think of open plan classrooms.

20:10So I'm just happy going off to school now.

20:25Like, it was a struggle before, for sure.

20:28I think she's a lot more enthused and empowered.

20:32Yeah.

20:40Eleven-year-old Sophia has dyslexia and auditory processing disorder, which means she struggles

20:47to hear in a noisy environment.

20:50I noticed quite early on, because she's our third child, that she was having a lot of difficulty

20:56with reading and writing.

20:58She was sort of just flying under the radar.

21:01At her old school, she was one of 60 kids in an open plan classroom.

21:05Mum Cara and Dad Anton say that just wasn't working for her.

21:10It's just kind of chaos.

21:13You could just see some kids lined up against the wall, not just sitting down, reading and

21:17doing different things, and different things happening over there.

21:20There might be some raucous kids.

21:21And when she's in a busy classroom, she can hear everything that everyone's saying behind

21:27her, and she couldn't hear or sort of process what the teacher was saying.

21:31They provided her with a little hearing piece and a little microphone that the teacher wore.

21:36It didn't work well at all.

21:37The teachers didn't really like it.

21:39I could hear gossip in class from telling off kids, my teachers dropping some F-bombs,

21:46them going to the bathroom.

21:49OK.

21:50So while that school wasn't right for Sophia, there was one on the other side of Auckland

21:55that was.

21:56But it meant the entire family had to uproot all their lives and move.

22:00So we decided to pull all the kids out of their schools and move for Sophia.

22:06That's a massive sacrifice for a family.

22:09Yeah, it is.

22:11But we've made the, we've made the right choice, yeah.

22:14They can do everything for your kids, right?

22:20I know, but I've got the family.

22:22Sophia's new school, Summit Point, is designed for neurodivergent children.

22:28Classrooms are single cell and small.

22:30It's not cheap though.

22:31An independent school, fees are up to $19,000 a year.

22:35But Sophia says it is working.

22:39This school, I'll give it a 9.5.

22:42Really?

22:43Yeah, that's pretty awesome.

22:44Do you have four one way and five the other way?

22:47It's so quiet, Sophia doesn't need that headset to amplify the teacher's voice.

22:51How many did you use?

22:5421.

22:55Yeah, it is 21.

22:56Good job, Sophia.

22:57And how's your learning been here?

22:59It's been great.

23:01Really?

23:01Really good.

23:02Really?

23:03At my old school, I didn't really get recognised.

23:06Because they were just like, not gave up on me, but like, they would just treat me like

23:11another kid when I need more attention.

23:13And when I have more attention, I can unlock my true abilities.

23:17And that's what's happening here?

23:18Yeah.

23:19Team four.

23:2112-year-old Violet Green has also moved to Summit Point from an open-plan, modern learning

23:28environment, known as MLEs.

23:31Amazing.

23:32You didn't really need me, did you?

23:34You did it.

23:35She has all-DHD, a combination of autism and ADHD.

23:40So mum, Lucy, shifted her hair.

23:42We knew something was different when Violet was three.

23:46And so she just was really unique.

23:50Yeah, it was pretty special.

23:51What was that first school like then?

23:54We were all in one space with like 75 kids in this huge space.

24:00Too many.

24:01How would you get away?

24:02How would you get away?

24:03Um, I had a tent, which I would spend most of my time in.

24:08Okay.

24:09You had a tent?

24:10Yeah.

24:10Like a pub tent or like a...

24:12Like a teepee kind of thing.

24:13Oh, like a teepee.

24:14Yeah.

24:15So what would you do in there, Violet?

24:17I would like do my work, but barely, because I didn't know how to do it right.

24:21So I would just sit there alone.

24:23That wouldn't have been too much fun.

24:24That wouldn't have been too much fun.

24:26What was that like?

24:27It wasn't great.

24:28It wasn't great.

24:29I attempted reading by myself, but I was really bad.

24:33When I came here, they like showed me how to read and I got pretty good at it.

24:38This is pretty exciting.

24:39And now you read what?

24:40I don't know.

24:41Reading level of 14.

24:42Yeah.

24:4314 and like 15.

24:4414 and 15.

24:45Is your reading age?

24:46Yeah.

24:47And you're how old?

24:4812.

24:49Legend.

24:50Okay.

24:51How do you feel about yourself now at this school?

24:54I feel a lot better because I feel like I'm actually good at stuff.

24:58Because I used to think I was just some dumb kid who was in the special group.

25:04What do you guys think about MLEs?

25:06I don't think it works for neurodiverse children.

25:09I don't really know if it works for anyone, to be honest.

25:13Yeah.

25:14And should the government fix all of these classrooms that are all around the country?

25:17Should they just get in and fix them?

25:19Yeah.

25:20Because I think that would make everyone's life a lot better.

25:26Sophia's parents know they're lucky they had the choice to move her out of an open-plan

25:32classroom.

25:33I think Sophia would have been lost and I think her learning would have really deteriorated.

25:40Yeah.

25:41Whereas here it's going up.

25:42Seeing the benefit to Sophia, you know, what does that mean to all those other people in

25:47Sophia's situation who can't do that?

25:50And what does that actually mean to their future?

25:53Let's leave the last word, or words, on open-plan classrooms, aka MLEs, to Sophia.

25:59I don't think they should be around.

26:00I think they should be gonza.

26:01Walkabout.

26:02Yeah.

26:03Gonza.

26:04Gone.

26:05Gone.

26:06Walkabout.

26:07Yeah.

26:08Gone.

26:09No more MLEs.

26:10Yeah.

26:11Out.

26:12Never seen again.

26:13Gonza.

26:14Gonza.

26:15Did I say it right?

26:16Gonza.

26:17Gonza.

26:18Walkabout.

26:19MLEs are gone.

26:20Gone.

26:21Yeah, they're already gone.

26:22Yeah, they're already gone.

26:23I get it.

26:24It's good.

26:25Gonza.

26:26Walkabout.

26:27It is interesting because the Minister of Education herself has said that these open-plan

26:40classrooms are not good for neurodivergent students, but not every family can afford to

26:44move their children to an independent school or has access to a school.

26:48Yeah, and caveat, obviously, it can work for some of these children, so if it is working

26:52for your child and your family, there's no need to have to move.

26:54Yeah, important questions for the Minister on neurodiverse, so I will be asking her in

26:59the interview that is coming up because schools are desperate to rebuild their unfit classrooms

27:06and they need money, so I will ask the Minister, what is she going to do about it?

27:11And Karen's crusade is no walk in the car park.

27:15Can she get a result for Kiwis with Wilson Park?

27:27Wow.

27:28Welcome back to Katigawa Has Issues.

27:30Now, we have been talking about open-plan classrooms, the now-banned buildings that still exist by the

27:36hundreds in New Zealand schools.

27:38What is the government planning to do about this mess?

27:42Well, I got the chance to ask the Minister of Education, Erica Stanford, that very question.

27:49Minister, this is probably an unusual way of starting a political interview for me, but

27:53I'd like to praise you for your decision in stopping MLEs.

27:58So, well done.

28:00This is the best start to an interview I've ever had.

28:02It was a no-brainer.

28:03Yeah.

28:04What was the reaction from parents, from schools and importantly from students about

28:09that decision?

28:10It was overwhelmingly positive and instant.

28:12My inbox was flooded with emails from principals and teachers, but mostly from parents, because

28:17they inherently knew that this type of environment wasn't conducive to good focused learning for

28:23their children.

28:24And so, it went down really well, as I expected.

28:27The key issue here, to my mind, is stopping MLEs or open-plan classrooms is one thing, but

28:34it's left quite a mess out there in the school system.

28:37What message do you have for those schools and their communities that have got classrooms,

28:41big classrooms, they don't want?

28:42Well, the first thing I want to say to those principals and teachers is thank you for writing

28:46to me, because it has started a conversation and it has allowed those principals and teachers

28:51to come out and say, actually, this is not working for us.

28:54We were hearing anecdotally before, but now we're hearing a tidal wave of teachers and

28:59principals saying this isn't conducive to academic achievement and it isn't conducive

29:04to good learning.

29:05So, now we have to work out what do we do with what we have.

29:08I've been working with my officials about what a plan might look like and we have got

29:14something together and I'll be looking forward to saying more in the near future.

29:17Okay, so you've got a plan where schools can come to the government and say, we want to

29:22fix this and basically we want assistance and by that we mean money.

29:27Look, there are many schools who wrote to me and said, while we have our own, what's

29:31called 5YA budgets, these are budgets that schools have to do their own property maintenance

29:35and building.

29:36They're saying to me, look, we just don't have enough.

29:39And I want, as a minister, to make sure we get the best outcomes for our kids.

29:43I've got a reform agenda underway that relies on teachers changing their practice and it's

29:49happening all across the country with structured learning, structured literacy, structured maths.

29:54That type of reform that is underway and happening in our classrooms relies on focused learning

30:00in quiet environments.

30:01So we're talking about, you know, your government is big on infrastructure, for instance.

30:06Are we talking about enabling infrastructure type spend to fix classrooms?

30:11Well, I'll have more to say on that soon, but it will look something like a contestable

30:14fund that we'll put together based on need because there are, and one of the issues we've

30:19got with the education department is that they don't actually have a really good understanding

30:25of the size of the problem as well.

30:27So they've got a feeling for it, but they don't keep any records on these types of classrooms.

30:32So that'll be the first thing is to go out and find out where they all are and who wants to remedy.

30:37And a contestable fund where schools can come in based on need.

30:40I mean, that is more money becoming available.

30:43That is difficult to do, but that is clearly a sign of how important this is to your government.

30:49It's hugely important.

30:50Every single thing that I'm doing in my reform agenda is about raising achievement.

30:54So your message to schools, to parents, to students who are worried about this is some

31:00help is on its way.

31:01Some financial help is on its way.

31:03Yeah, look, my message to parents is that this is a failed experiment.

31:06We're not doing it anymore.

31:07And now we're going away to work out a plan of how we can help schools make sure that

31:11they do have good learning environments for all children so we can raise achievement.

31:15This is fantastic news, Minister.

31:17Well, thank you very much.

31:18Thank you for coming on.

31:19Patty Gower has issues.

31:20And thank you for bringing a solution to a very big issue in this country.

31:25Thank you for your time.

31:26You're welcome.

31:28So that is actually really significant.

31:30She has indicated there that change is coming and this is new information.

31:35Well, it can't come soon enough.

31:36Yeah, big, big news from the Minister there.

31:39So tonight my issue was with open plan classrooms or modern learning environments, MLEs, the

31:45failed experiment on our kids that I have been calling MLP, our major learning problem.

31:50And for me, it goes like this.

31:52Banning them was a no brainer, but it's easy to stop doing something.

31:56It's much harder to fix what is wrong.

31:59So the Ministry of Education needs to get off its butt and find out which MLEs are working

32:03and which ones aren't and then start fixing them and get our kids into classrooms that

32:09actually work or else our education system will keep going backwards.

32:14Now I know that money is tight, but not only is this for our kids, our classrooms are also

32:19what's called infrastructure, which creates not only assets, but spending and jobs.

32:25This current government reckons it is all about an infrastructure pipeline, by the way,

32:29and we have a construction sector crying out for work.

32:33So the solution here, put fixing our classrooms into the damn pipeline.

32:38Do it for our kids.

32:44Now, if you have an issue, send me an email about it, patty at pattygower.kiwi.

32:48Alright, coming up, it is time for Karen O'Leary's investigation.

32:52If you get a car parking fine, is there a way out?

32:55What can you do about it?

32:57Do you even have to pay it?

32:59Karen gets the answers.

33:11Welcome back to Patty Gower Has Issues.

33:13Now we are leaving open-plan classrooms behind now.

33:16Karen, what have you been investigating this time?

33:20Well, look, I'm going to start off with a question, okay?

33:22What are two words that make most drivers pretty angry?

33:25Not indicating.

33:26Traffic.

33:27Something.

33:28No.

33:29WP.

33:30Women.

33:31Women.

33:32Wilson.

33:33Wilson Parking.

33:34Okay.

33:35Oh, yeah.

33:36Wilson Parking.

33:37Yeah, yes.

33:38So they're the face of private parking.

33:39There are other operators, but they're probably the most people's first thoughts.

33:42And I have met someone who has a specific issue about a Wilson Parking breach.

33:46Breaching.

33:47It's not fun.

33:48If you're giving birth or if you're parking.

33:49But does it have to be so rough?

33:51The parking one, not the birth one.

33:52I'm not a doctor.

33:53So, Liv, what is your issue?

33:55My issue is Wilson's Parking.

33:56And what's specifically about Wilson Parking?

33:57So, I got a fine for not paying for parking, but I did pay for the parking.

34:15Hi, you didn't pay for our parking?

34:18Have you 거 we do not pay for parking?

34:24pay for our parking here's your entrance and your exit and i'm like hi here's my receipt i did pay

34:29for the parking yeah it was like a couple emails which is actually very difficult for someone with

34:33adhd to remember yeah you gotta remember the password to your account you gotta remember

34:37so many things it's too difficult they did let me out of it in the end but it was just frustrating

34:43that i had to go through that in the first place when i had already paid yeah and thought it was

34:47fine so live in seven words or less describe wilson parking stop finding my car the car is

34:56why are you finding it i think they're finding finding you as the driver as a person well that's

35:01more personal no just you didn't have to pay the fine in the end but you've still got an issue

35:09yeah so i just think they shouldn't have given me a fine in the first place because i did pay

35:13so obviously their systems aren't good enough um their signage isn't good enough but it's not

35:19really me i'm worried about it's kind of other people like if they're maybe older they're not

35:22good with technology they don't know how to send an email to get out of it um or english isn't their

35:27first language like they might not realize that they can get out of these things without having to pay

35:33you're worried about other people yeah what do you want wilson to do um just be better i guess and

35:40stop finding me specifically i'd love that but yeah be better for everyone i think all right well

35:45look leave it with me i'm on the job thanks karen no worries can you park your car somewhere or could

35:51i grab a lift live's right these signs and systems aren't great if you want to know you're actually

35:57agreeing to but we can't be the only ones who think that have you parked a car in the wilson car park

36:02today yes do you always make sure you read every single thing on the on the sign no very rarely i don't

36:07have time the fine print i don't think anybody reads those of course we do not do not what about

36:15the qr code have you ever scanned that never no no qr codes are a bit beyond me a bit beyond me to be

36:23honest are you aware when you've paid for parking that you've actually entered into a contract no yes

36:28no this doesn't seem right but can they do it i'd love to talk to a lawyer preferably one named

36:42andrea to see if this is above board lovely to meet you lovely to meet you can wilson parking do this

36:53with these 85 breach notices the short answer to that question is yes they can

37:02provided that all the terms of the parking are clearly displayed but you go over to the big the

37:07display board where it tells you all of the money you're gonna have to pay for parking and then it

37:11says you agree to the terms and conditions and if you want to see them then you've got to scan

37:15another qr code and scroll through a million pages on the internet to find anything about breach

37:20notices are they allowed to do that they can provided it is clear clear that you have to scan

37:25the qr code in order to see provided the terms are clear and that at some point in those provisions

37:32there is reference to the consequences of not complying with the terms of the contract

37:39if the consequences are not out of proportion beyond the legitimate interests of the innocent party i.e.

37:47wilson's oh so so wilson parking are actually the innocent party here and they are allowed to do

37:54what they're doing they are allowed to do what they're doing

38:03despite everything they're doing being above board legally i'm not giving up on this quest for wilson to

38:08be better so the next step is to take us all behind the issue

38:11the first thing to clear up is that what wilson parking gives you is not a fine it's a breach

38:19notice a fine is a punishment for breaking a law and wilson parking do not have the authority to issue

38:24them a breach notice however can be issued when a contract has not been upheld and when you park in

38:30a private car park you're agreeing to a contract with terms and conditions breach the contract get a

38:35breach notice another misconception to clear up wilson parking in their enforcement division

38:40parking enforcement services or piss actually have a tiered fee range depending on what part

38:45of the contract you breach it's 45 to 55 dollars if you pay for time but go over 85 dollars for when

38:51you just don't pay at all and up to 250 dollars for parking in a mobility bay without a valid permit

38:57now you might be like me when i see someone with a libubu and you're thinking why are they so expensive

39:03well like a libubu a lot of the price is because of how it makes other people feel under the law

39:09breach fees can be made up of covering admin expensive recovering lost income and then a deterrent

39:15which isn't allowed to be excessive but is allowed to make you do a little ouch so wilson's 85

39:21dollar fee is encouraging people to pay for their parking instead of effectively stealing it this is

39:27the key issue for me because if the 85 dollar fee is meant to be a deterrent that shouldn't be hidden

39:32away in the digital terms and conditions which you have to scan a qr code to access it's not a great

39:37system and live isn't the only one who hasn't had a fun time with it in the last four and a half years

39:41the commerce commission or com com received 470 concerns about wilson parking and over 300 of them

39:48were about breach notices so to quote my co-host and best friend this is an issue for all of us

39:55hey hey hey hey this is an issue for all of us that's my saying you can't just take it she did

40:04say it well though maybe better hey so are they they are allowed to sting you like that it's all

40:11within the law so what are you going to do from here you got nothing well look it is legal but but

40:18and he's a big but is it fair i mean who's to say well it's my show and i reckon it doesn't sound

40:23that fair at all okay well exactly okay well what we're going to do after the break i'm going to let

40:27you all know what to do if you do happen to get one of those breach notices yes coming up wilson

40:33parking don't give many interviews and they don't give many concessions can karen get both

40:48welcome back to patty gow has issues where karen o'leary is on the case of wilson parking now

40:53let's talk about the wilson's where are they from are they a kiwi family yeah so no they're not

40:58actually it's they're an international company and they're based out of hong kong and they're

41:02actually the quok family and where are you up to in this investigation okay so so just to recap

41:07obviously we've found out they are entitled to give out that 85 breach fee and also they're under no

41:12obligation to have that clearly stated on any of their signage in their car folks they can have it

41:16hidden away under a qr code or in their terms and conditions online um so basically i really do

41:20think i can get them to change but just before we get on to that okay just before we get on to that

41:25i want to go and make sure that we know what to do if you do happen to get one of those breach notices

41:30i want to let you know what to do when a breach notice happens to you so i roped in an expert who

41:34was also a victim it all started when i got my own parking fine a couple of years ago was it with wilson

41:41yes it was wilson i mean how did it make you feel when you got it i was so terrified i mean

41:46you open this letter you read to the bottom and it says uh they're going to send you to to debt

41:51collectors and it's going to impact your credit record if you don't pay so that's really scary

41:56i mean what are your rights what what can you just ignore it or do you have to do what they scare you

42:02into doing yeah well look in my heart i want to say totally ignore it you can say that

42:07but i can't say that it's not true you absolutely should not ignore one of these letters right

42:13the best thing that you can do is is read it figure out exactly what they're accusing you of

42:19um open up a chain of dialogue email them even if that time for appeal um usually it's about 14 days

42:26even if that's over just contact them and say hey well actually where's the evidence for this

42:31uh what what goes into you you know making up this fine what what am i actually paying for

42:37and then the final thing is is that you know once you've gone through this dialogue with wilson

42:42or any operator if you have to pay pay there may be some debt collection impacts there we don't want

42:49that we don't want this impacting on your credit record or anything like that so at the end of the

42:54day once you've had your appeal um pay what do you see what would you want to see is the future

43:01for breach notices here in aotearoa we want to see really really clear signage you're looking for a

43:07park but as soon as you park you've you've agreed to the terms and conditions so those terms and conditions

43:12have to be really really clear the wording should be much larger should be in plain english and it should

43:18be adequately sign posted it's not clear you've got to scan a qr code then you've got to get there's a

43:23million pages in there yeah and that's not fair and it shouldn't be on the consumer to chase down

43:29those terms and conditions so if you could just say one thing to wilson parking right now i mean

43:36what would you say to them do better be nice be fair that's really powerful anything else you want

43:44to say to them well there's something i want to say to you okay and the people viewing at home oh great

43:50it's don't go and harass the people in the car parks putting the tickets on or you know writing the

43:57letters or marking your card they're just doing their job it's not their fault

44:05yeah so obviously just just to reiterate there i think it was really wise do not ignore these

44:10two these breach fees um do not harass the people that are just doing their jobs and putting out the

44:14tickets but do definitely appeal if you think your breach was unjustified and just make sure you keep

44:19everything in writing i mean at the end of the day basically you might just have to pay because it

44:23is actually it is actually all legal so that's it that's all you've got we're done here no it's not

44:27no because i still want to give wilson you know a chance to tell their side of the story and i think

44:32hopefully we can come up with a solution that's going to work for me and live so i just i asked if

44:36i could make them well wilson's have never done an interview in my whole career i don't know about

44:40many journalists over many years try and get an interview with wilson and they very rarely

44:45do oh yeah but i just i asked them and they said they'd talk to me

44:51wilson's have agreed to meet me in their office on camera and i'm not leaving until i get something

44:56out of them

45:01good to meet you yeah um just could we just swap places i just yeah i feel a bit shorter for years

45:10i think that's just you know we want to be on a level playing field i think that's always good

45:14hey look thank you so much for coming to meet me i mean at your work i really appreciate that

45:18now look we've had some we've had someone come to us that it's got a bit of an issue with the

45:22the 85 breach notices that you guys are like to give out i just want to know first and foremost like

45:28where did you come up with that number 85 well firstly we don't like to give out the 85 breach

45:33fee but it does need to be set at a a good level that acts as a deterrent i think the new zealand

45:38dispute tribunal have found that 85 up to 120 is is a reasonable deterrent and the good thing is

45:44you can still write in and appeal it and if we've seen that you've done it for the first time and you

45:50made an effort to pay and you've given us a good reason for that it's going to be waived because we

45:54actually waive over half of the breach notices that write in and people write in an appeal we

45:59actually end up waiving them in goodwill we'd rather educate people so speaking of the signage

46:04i was going to talk to you about that as well a bit because obviously you know you go in there you

46:08want to know the terms and conditions so that you don't get one of these breach things and there's a

46:11qr code and we're just going to pause because there's a loud car and then you've got to go access

46:17the qr code scroll through all those pages to work out where is the breach amount i mean do you think

46:23that's a deterrent because it's just so annoying yeah we we get that and we're always looking for

46:28ways to improve the messaging on our signage and with regards to the breach for that that's a fair

46:32comment and that's something that we're working on so matt i am a solutions focus kind of a person

46:37so i'd really like to come up with a solution that we could agree on right now we talked about the signs

46:41i mean can you kind of promise promise me now that you will make it clearer put that 85 breach amount

46:48on your signage we are absolutely going to do that we're working on it we really appreciate the

46:53feedback that we get from people about that so i can assure you that that's top of our agenda

46:58improving our signage and making the messaging much clearer that's fantastic so i just want to

47:03thank you again for your time it's been marvelous good good rest of your day did you pay for your

47:06parking i'm just good okay success not only did i get wilson to be better i also forgot we're a park

47:17what a result karen wilson are going to change their signage you've done it again well look you

47:27know i have i've had word from wilson they've already changed um 95 of their signs to make sure

47:31their 85 breach fee is clear and center right right there so everyone can see what they're they're going

47:36to have to pay if they don't pay for their parking so and they've also promised to make sure they change

47:40all of the rest of the signs throughout the country well that is just incredible you've taken on a big

47:44global company and you've got a result you are absolutely awesome a phenomenon now thank you to

47:50every one of you phenomenons out there who shared your issue with us tonight thank you to our

47:55phenomenal student studio audience and thank you for watching at home you're phenomenal i'm patty gower

48:00and i still have issues because we still have issues so get in touch with your issue patty

48:06at patty gower dot kiwi and we will see you next tuesday cheers

48:15i've got no issues with new zealand on air thank you new zealand on air

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