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Paddy Gower Has Issues Season 2 Episode 2
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00:00Hello Kiwis, I'm Paddy Gower and I have got issues.
00:13Now on this show we investigate issues big and small that are important to all of us.
00:18And tonight, home insurance premiums are going up and up.
00:22Blood threatened Kiwi homes are becoming uninsurable.
00:26What happens next?
00:26And illegal rubbish dumping is the crime with no punishment.
00:31Karen finds out what we can actually do about it.
00:48Now I want to start tonight with a warning about your home.
00:52The value could be about to crash by up to 40%.
00:56It goes like this.
00:57You might get financially trapped with the value of your biggest asset taking a massive hit.
01:03And it is all to do with the risk of floods and weather events.
01:06Now the government has already been warned on this because top climate economist Belinda Story just told Treasury that homes in hazardous areas could be 40% overvalued because risks aren't factored into house prices.
01:21How could we get here?
01:22Well let's start with insurance because after several unprecedented, once in a generation storms, we've been hit with unprecedented, worst in a generation insurance bills up almost 50% in the space of three years.
01:36Now insurance companies are factoring in the risk.
01:40Now if your premiums are rising, your property might have been effectively danger zoned without you really knowing.
01:47And it gets worse.
01:48The government is already talking about pulling out of taxpayer funded buyouts when floods or weather events wreck a place.
01:55So if you own a home in one of these danger zones, the value could drop.
01:59But how would you even know?
02:02It is so hard to get the right information on this.
02:05This is not about location, location, location anymore.
02:09This is about Kiwis needing information, information, information.
02:13We use the term climate crisis a lot.
02:15So tonight, I am describing this as the home value crisis and it really is an issue for all of us.
02:27Okay, joined tonight by Karen O'Leary as always and our special guest, the 3 News Weather and Climate Specialist, Laura Tupo.
02:35Laura, how big an issue is this?
02:37A huge issue, Paddy.
02:38You will have heard of Managed Retreat where councils and communities deem that the threat is too high to remain living where they are.
02:45So they'll think about moving, potentially.
02:47There's also Insurance Retreat, which is where insurance companies decide that it's not worth offering home insurance in that area.
02:55Now, what we're seeing at the moment is huge hikes to people's premiums, so much so that it's becoming unaffordable for some people.
03:02And actually, people in Wellington pay the most for their home insurance.
03:06Well, I didn't actually know that, but I did know that my insurance cost me an absolute fortune.
03:10And I'm nowhere near a flood zone.
03:12Oh, but the land slips.
03:13No, but I live on top of a hill.
03:16I live on top of a hill.
03:17Yeah, there we go.
03:19Well, this investigation, I started it, and it might sound funny saying this, but the tiny town of Westport gives us a glimpse into New Zealand's future.
03:27It got hit by two big floods a few years back, and now it is trying to adapt to that threat.
03:34So I went down there to the west coast.
03:36I actually started in a tiny town called Granity.
03:39It's a paradise.
03:44It's a paradise by the beach.
03:46This is Granity on the west coast.
03:49Paradise to Simon Brook, but a place some say is being eaten by the sea.
03:54Twice in 20 years, there's been kind of a large event where there's been a bit of a fuss around the place, and water has come right in.
04:02Do you have a vibe on climate change?
04:05You've got rocks in your head if you don't think it's happening.
04:07Simon doesn't have insurance.
04:10He got annoyed when his insurer wouldn't pay out the full amount when his laptop broke.
04:15I'd given them tens of thousands of dollars over the years, so I just thought, bugger you, and I insured myself.
04:21How did you insure yourself?
04:23I built myself a rock wall.
04:26What were you thinking?
04:27Well, I was thinking large.
04:29How many tons of rocks are here?
04:33There's 900 tonne there.
04:35They're all 10 to 14 tonne each.
04:36That's your insurance policy against the sea?
04:39Yeah, it sure is.
04:41I've got my million dollar view, and I'm able to sleep well.
04:46What message do you think this gives to insurance companies?
04:51I don't know if I can probably say that on camera.
04:53Just say it?
04:54Get f***ed.
04:55Building your own wall might sound extreme, but Simon isn't alone.
05:0430 minutes down the road is Westport.
05:07Next to the Bulla River, it is a town under threat.
05:11In 2018, and again in 2021, hundreds of homes were flooded.
05:17Half a metre of water in there, everything was pretty much wrecked.
05:20Cot, photo box, yeah, all gone.
05:23Still a bit raw to this day, to be honest.
05:24What sort of information did you have about flooding risk when you bought this place?
05:30There was nothing on my limb from memory.
05:31How are you feeling about rain after that?
05:33Yeah, we don't like rain much.
05:35So Troy Scanlon put up some protection.
05:38We built a flood wall.
05:40So we've got a black plastic film at the back of it that runs all the way down the back of the wall.
05:47Right, and how do you cover the front?
05:50We've bought a big steel wall that obviously can be put up, so effectively we create an enclosed square.
05:58I've never seen anything like this before in New Zealand in my life.
06:01Yeah.
06:02What does this do for you as a homeowner?
06:04Well, I suppose it gives us some peace of mind.
06:07We obviously don't know if it's going to work.
06:09We're fairly confident it will.
06:11Ballpark, how much did this cost?
06:15I think probably in even terms of about 100,000.
06:19Sure.
06:20Eventually, Westport will be surrounded by walls.
06:23The council is building 16 kilometres of stock banks.
06:27What's the worst case scenario?
06:29I think the worst case scenario is another major event before the flood protection is built.
06:34There's insurance cover for most people at the moment, but that would be the last throw of the dice for those claims, particularly around flooding.
06:43What we are seeing is a doubling of the insurance premiums for a number of houses in town, which is unsustainable for many.
06:52Here's a scenario. The government adopts no more buyouts. Insurance is either through the roof in here or pulling out altogether.
07:02You've got a number of people who are mortgaged and their houses aren't worth what they paid for them.
07:09Does that sound like a realistic scenario to you for Westport, and does that worry you?
07:13That's a scenario that is very real if we don't act, and that's why we're acting, in terms of trying to achieve that alternative
07:21so that there is hope, there is options for people.
07:24Yeah, so the risk of buyer beware is you create, effectively, you know, a society of haves and have-nots,
07:31or, you know, or the risk of slummification, which is, you know, a horrific word.
07:35It sounds terrible, but, you know, effectively it's that the smart money has moved to higher ground.
07:40The council's plan is to get some of the town to move.
07:44So it's about how we try and not leave people behind.
07:46And not everyone is convinced.
07:52What do you think of the plans to move part of the town?
07:55Oh, no, that's, yeah, I don't know, that's going to be bloody, but as sad as it is, it'll have to happen, won't it?
08:01It'll play the game, bro.
08:02Yeah, yeah.
08:04But, yeah, the whole town's doomed, isn't it?
08:08The whole town's doomed?
08:09Yeah, pretty much, bro.
08:10Yeah.
08:11All right, mate.
08:12You having a good day?
08:12Well, sceptical residents have been part of a documentary called Managed Out.
08:17Our government is now in the business of writing laws for compulsory land acquisition
08:21in preparation for disasters that haven't yet happened.
08:26It's made by Reality Check Radio, which questions climate change policy.
08:31Well, there were some very, very good people on it.
08:33I was one of them.
08:34And I'm fully aware of the flooding problems we've had are caused by government
08:38and our councils that are trying to blame it on the weather.
08:41It's just ridiculous.
08:42What do you think's going to happen under this scenario if it continues?
08:46Slump town.
08:47Slump town.
08:48But Jane Duncan, who has been flooded twice, says it is vital for Westport's future.
08:53You know, it'd be great for our kids to be able to look back and say,
08:56oh, someone had the foresight to do that.
08:59You know, so Westport's still here.
09:01Four years on from the floods, a weather warning brings huge anxiety.
09:06That feeling when you get one, the pit of your stomach, that kind of cold sweat.
09:11That's what you're feeling now, even thinking about a red weather warning.
09:16I'm feeling emotional about it.
09:18You are.
09:19Well, it's okay to feel like that.
09:21You've been through hell because of weather.
09:25Well, and also just seeing what's happening in other parts of the country brings it all home.
09:32You've got a beautiful home here.
09:34When you brought it, did you realise that you were at so much risk?
09:38No, we were aware that it is near the estuary, so we got the LIM report.
09:47A LIM is a land information memorandum, the key council document showing risks and hazards for a home.
09:55I went into council and I checked the flood mapping.
09:58So the LIM says here, under special land features, it should be noted that the dwelling and sheds are outside of a flood area.
10:03So they're in black and white?
10:04Yep.
10:05And you've got water up to here?
10:07We did.
10:08What's the future for you?
10:11Can you sell this place to someone else?
10:14Would I want to?
10:15Would I want to put someone else in our position?
10:18Not until there's protection in place.
10:20Who would buy it anyway?
10:22Do you want a house in Westport?
10:23If you could get out of here, you would.
10:25Yeah.
10:26And that hurts you to say that.
10:27It took you a lot of courage to say that.
10:29But if you could get out of this house with your family, you would.
10:33And don't get me wrong, I love this house.
10:34I love my home.
10:36I've got memories here.
10:37But I just don't think I could go through that again.
10:42Well, that's the issue right there.
10:49You know, Jane couldn't bear to sell her house to anyone knowing what she knows.
10:53And I'm sure there would be thousands of other Kiwis like you who couldn't do that.
10:56But the more brutal side of what she's saying there is there'll be a lot of people looking at houses like hers and saying, I would never buy that.
11:05And that is, of course, where we get that potential for value crash.
11:08Yeah, there was mention of slumification where you have this equity issue, right?
11:12The haves and the have-nots.
11:13Those who have the money can go to higher ground and get out of those areas that are prone to flooding.
11:18But those who can't are still at risk.
11:21Well, I'm thinking of talking to that first guy and getting him to build a massive wall around Brooklyn Hill.
11:26It'd need a lot of rocks, Karen.
11:29When I started looking into this, because it's such a huge issue, a striking example of just how, I guess, frequent these events are is that while we were filming, there were slips in Wellington.
11:41Sorry, Karen.
11:42But there were also two massive storms in Tasman while we were investigating.
11:47Once in a generation.
11:47Exactly.
11:48So I obviously had to go down there to see how they were getting on.
11:56Communities have been cut off and evacuations are underway as New Zealand is lashed by a severe weather system.
12:02Some parts of Tasman have had nearly half a year's rain in just two weeks.
12:07A state of emergency remains in place for Nelson and Tasman in part of Marlborough after heavy rain has pelted the top of the south.
12:13When the chaos of the storm fades, a heavy silence takes its place.
12:19And the damage is everywhere you turn.
12:23Twisted trampolines, buildings torn from their foundations, household items scattered like toys.
12:30The markers of just how high the water climbed and how unstoppable it was.
12:36There was strong current, really strong current.
12:39You've lived here all your life.
12:40Yep.
12:41Have you seen anything like this before?
12:42Not to this extent.
12:44Okay, now it's starting to get a bit serious.
12:47The river's breached.
12:49My gumboots are full of water.
12:51And we're trying to get the cars out.
12:53When the nearby Mochueka River rose and reached the first cottage on the property,
12:58the Beetson family acted quickly, gathered the stock and took them to higher ground.
13:03And within 10 minutes, a quarter of an hour, I'd gone from just coming through to being knee-deep
13:09of where I wasn't too sure if I'd get the four-wheeler through.
13:12Looking back, Guthrie Beetson is pragmatic.
13:15He's seen it flood here in 1957 and 83.
13:19By definition, these are flood plains, so they've been built by flood and silt and all that gives
13:25them their fertility.
13:26Would you ever leave?
13:28No.
13:31The river, it's kind most of the time.
13:35Swim in the air and it's been all my life, really, has been the river.
13:40But some now and then it will bite.
13:4520 minutes away in Dovedale, Ali Newell and her family of six are assessing the damage
13:50after the first devastating storm.
13:53You can kind of see the line down there on the plywood where it's come up.
13:58How are you feeling?
14:00Um, overwhelmed.
14:04Overwhelmed.
14:04And it wasn't like any flooding that we had experienced in three years here.
14:09Or our neighbours in, you know, 50 plus years.
14:13So a totally different, totally different level of water and chaos than we're used to.
14:19Does it change the fact that you want to keep living?
14:23You know what I mean?
14:24Like, does it change anything like that?
14:28Yes and no.
14:29If you asked me yesterday when I was having a moment, I'd say yes, absolutely.
14:33But I could also not live in the city.
14:36Like, I have ducks and we've got a dog and a cat and, yeah, we like the lifestyle.
14:41A week after talking to Ali, a second major storm barreled through the Tasman district.
14:47And this time, it didn't spare their family home.
14:53You've got water right there at the back of the house.
14:56And it's gone inside the house of the france.
14:59They're hoping to salvage the house, but they won't be able to live here until sometime next year.
15:04There's a lot of current here.
15:08Up in Wellington, there's also been damage.
15:12The region's had hundreds of slips, like this one,
15:15which struck Deborah East's Island Bay home in July.
15:19And as soon as I saw it, I knew we had to evacuate
15:21because the deck at the back was split.
15:25Clearly, it was going to collapse, bringing the stuff down.
15:29You can see the slip here.
15:33Thankfully, there's nobody in the way at the time,
15:35although our dog happened to get trapped in here
15:39and somehow, miraculously, escaped unscathed, though a little traumatised.
15:44I was shaking.
15:45I just didn't know what to do.
15:49So tell me what happened when you returned to the house.
15:53We made a couple of trips in and out,
15:55and then one random 20 centimetre rock came down on the south side
16:00and whacked into the back of my leg.
16:03And I screamed and managed to drag myself in the door,
16:06but I really thought I'd broken my leg.
16:08It was pretty horrible.
16:10It was the last thing Deborah and her husband could imagine
16:14when they bought their distinctive dream home during lockdown.
16:17I just went, wow.
16:20The boat on the front, it's just quirky, individualistic,
16:25and right on the water.
16:26I just loved it.
16:28As a former real estate agent, she did all the right checks,
16:31got the limb, there were no red flags.
16:34But half Wellington is on cliffs.
16:36There's nothing on the limb.
16:38There's nothing to say that that piece of hillside
16:41is more vulnerable than any other hillside in Wellington.
16:44The couple are now living in a rental property,
16:48working through what will happen next to their dream home.
16:52So I'm not sure at this stage
16:56how much funding there's going to actually be
16:58to do the remediation.
17:00It may end up being at our own cost.
17:02Yeah, how are you feeling about it all?
17:04Because it's challenging.
17:06Oh, it is challenging.
17:07It's almost like I've been told to move on.
17:10But, yeah, it was the dream house.
17:17Definitely was the dream house.
17:24OK, let's talk about limbs,
17:26because limb reports, you know,
17:28they're supposed to be the Bible.
17:30You get them from the council when you buy your house,
17:31and that's supposed to have everything kind of covered in it, right?
17:34Yeah, that's the assumption, right?
17:35But, actually, you're supposed to do more research
17:38into the potential hazards on your house.
17:41There is going to be an update to limbs coming in October
17:43where they will clearly state the natural hazards to your property.
17:47But the catch is it's what they know about your property,
17:50what councils know about your property.
17:52And the big question is,
17:53do they have the data to support that?
17:56That's right.
17:56One council might have, one might not.
17:58Now, this is the kind of thing that we need to ask the minister about
18:01when New Zealanders will get the information that they need.
18:05And the minister is coming on later in the programme.
18:08And coming up,
18:10Laura meets the people whose house is becoming nearly uninsurable
18:13despite having, get this, never been flooded.
18:17Could happen to anyone.
18:18And Karen meets a Kiwi frustrated
18:20with illegal rubbish dumping in her neighbourhood.
18:23Aren't we all frustrated with this?
18:28OK, wow.
18:35Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues.
18:37Now, tonight, Laura Tepoa and I are investigating
18:40the unprecedented rise in home insurance costs
18:43and the damage that it is doing to Kiwi families.
18:46So, right now, it is time to go behind the issues.
18:51OK, so insurance premiums have skyrocketed.
18:54Since the year 2000, home insurance has gone up 890%.
18:59That means it is almost 10 times as much as it was.
19:04And way more.
19:05It's gone up way more than any other commodity
19:07like cigarettes and booze.
19:09In the past three years, premiums have gone up 47%.
19:14And Wellington, you guys are paying top dollar for insurance.
19:18It's twice as much as Auckland and about 50% more than Canterbury.
19:22Now, New Zealand is ranked the second riskiest country
19:26when it comes to natural disasters,
19:28sitting only behind flood-prone Bangladesh.
19:33And after the Auckland anniversary floods,
19:35insurance claims reached almost $2 billion.
19:39Then Cyclone Gabriel racked up almost another $2 billion bill.
19:43And the Insurance Council says they were number one and number two
19:48on the list of the largest insurance weather events
19:52in New Zealand's history.
19:54Now, a new government report is out
19:56and it suggests that in 20 years' time,
19:59all taxpayer-funded buyouts after weather events should be stopped.
20:03You will be on your own, except for insurance.
20:08But can we afford to keep paying for our premiums?
20:11Well, increasingly, no.
20:13Consumer NZ's report released today surveyed 1,000 people
20:17and found that 17% have cancelled or not renewed
20:21their house insurance in the past year.
20:24But the worst part could come with your house value.
20:27Say that you bought a house at the average price in New Zealand
20:30of about $770k,
20:32and you've got an average mortgage of about $590k.
20:37Now, if you are in an area vulnerable to weather events,
20:40your insurance premiums start to rise
20:42and it puts people off buying in your area.
20:45The value of your $770k home drops down towards the amount of your mortgage
20:49or even below.
20:51You could end up owing more than your house is worth.
20:54That is called negative equity.
20:56It is called the equity trap.
20:59And in its report, Consumer NZ talks about expensive premiums,
21:02dropping rates of insured houses,
21:04and virtually unsellable homes.
21:06They say this scenario will damage the entire economy
21:10and they call it insurance market failure.
21:13And in some more alarming news, if you need it,
21:16top climate economist Belinda Storey has just warned the government,
21:19telling Treasury that climate risks are not factored into house prices.
21:23As a rough rule, they're probably overvalued by 30% to 40%,
21:26which is less than the amount of appreciation and property values
21:31that we've had in recent times.
21:33So effectively, property values and most hazardous locations
21:37need to go back to where they were 10 or 20 years ago.
21:42And you don't need to have been flooded for your premiums to start rising.
21:46In many places, they already are.
21:47One place is Petone in Wellington,
21:50where locals are already getting hit with big insurance bills.
21:58Across the water from Wellington's CBD,
22:01along the edge of the Hutt Valley,
22:03is the seaside suburb of Petone.
22:07Hello.
22:08Hi.
22:08Laura.
22:09Hi, Michelle.
22:10You've got such a beautiful home.
22:13It's where the Gracie family calls home.
22:15I love the old house and love the character.
22:18And we like doing things up,
22:19so room by room we've been going around
22:21and sort of putting it back to the old character.
22:24When they bought it nine years ago,
22:26insurance premiums cost $200 a month.
22:30Ran like that for a couple of three years,
22:33and then it sort of doubled.
22:36It went up, you know, to $400, $500 a month.
22:39Then it went up to $600, $700 a month.
22:41And then last year, they gave us a price of like $950 a month.
22:46Putting it up by 42% in one jump
22:50is way too much for people to handle.
22:53What did you do when you were told
22:55that that was what you were going to have to pay?
22:57Yeah.
22:57We rang up the insurance company, didn't we?
23:00Yeah, I wanted to write it down.
23:02I wanted to see year by year how much it had increased
23:05and wrote it down on a piece of paper
23:06so I could actually see it in front of me.
23:08And it was ridiculous.
23:10And the insurance company said
23:11one of the reasons the price has gone up
23:14is because we're more prone to natural disasters or flooding.
23:17So they tried to switch insurer.
23:20Yeah, we've been on a journey definitely
23:22of ringing around all the other insurance companies
23:24and no one else will cover this house.
23:26So there's...
23:28The common response I get is
23:30we're not offering coverage in that area
23:32or we're not taking on any new customers in that area.
23:36So no one will cover us
23:37and we're locked in with who we've got
23:40and they keep putting the price up
23:41so we're kind of stuck really.
23:43There's nothing you can do about it.
23:45Bank says must have insurance.
23:46Insurance company is the only one that will give insurance.
23:50You're trapped.
23:51How are you managing things at the moment financially?
23:54Oh, we're lucky I suppose
23:57that we're not...
23:58You know, we can afford to rejig our budget to make it work
24:01but if it goes up more than where it currently is
24:04then we're looking at either sacrificing...
24:08You know, it's not quite food versus insurance
24:10but it's getting pretty close.
24:11We'll have to make some tough decisions if it goes up.
24:13The Gracies, like many others around the country,
24:16are paying a premium for a hazard they are yet to experience.
24:21But what could happen
24:22and what are insurers worried about?
24:24We tried to track down all the official information
24:27we could through the council's websites.
24:29Yeah, we're stuffed. Look at that.
24:32Yeah, but what does that mean?
24:33But these guys are okay and these guys are okay.
24:36What does it mean?
24:36It's a very good question.
24:37This map is ambiguous
24:39and that plays right into the hands of the insurance companies
24:44who use it as a reason for increasing risk
24:47and increasing premiums on people's houses.
24:49Like, this is perfect for them because it's unclear
24:52and they can just use that vagueness to justify rate increases.
24:57And the two maps show two different things.
24:58They're different colours, they're different...
25:01I mean, this one shows the sea being flooded
25:04which kind of doesn't make sense.
25:06It's confusing, it's technical,
25:08it's difficult to interpret even the experts struggle.
25:12Climate economist Belinda Story
25:14was a guest presenter at Treasury recently
25:16and shared her frustrations.
25:19So even the data that we do have,
25:22it is not accessible.
25:23It is not accessible to the public,
25:27it's not accessible to most researchers
25:30and it's not accessible to small to medium businesses.
25:36Information is available from the Breast Science Institute
25:41if you have enough money.
25:43And the entities that tend to have the money to pay for that
25:45would be the insurers and some of the banks.
25:47Consumer NZ has just completed an extensive investigation
25:50into the insurance market.
25:52They say there needs to be consistency in the information available.
25:57We all need to know and agree on the base data that is reliable
26:01before we can make decisions.
26:04And if one party's holding a big chunk of that data,
26:07it creates an unequal playing field.
26:10So it would be much easier to make future decisions
26:12if we were all singing from the same songbook essentially
26:15and had access to the same data.
26:17She says the lack of transparency makes it difficult for anyone
26:21to understand why insurers are hiking up premiums.
26:25We actually hired an economist to go through the publishable annual reports
26:28of the insurers and we couldn't quite get to the bottom of it.
26:32After the 2023 events, they did take a financial hit,
26:36but they all still made a profit.
26:38That's despite more people ditching their insurance.
26:42Consumer NZ's survey of 1,000 homeowners found 17%
26:47had cancelled their house insurance.
26:50And that's up 10% since 2022.
26:53So we're seeing sort of a slow and steady increase
26:55in people dropping house insurance because of cost.
26:58And although the Gracies are still insured,
27:01they've reduced their cover so they can pay a more manageable $650 a month.
27:07I mean, there'll come a point where people just simply can't afford it.
27:10And so, I mean, like, you squeeze and squeeze and squeeze,
27:13eventually something's going to pop.
27:19Whoa.
27:20I know, right?
27:22$650 a month, right?
27:24Their insurance company told them
27:26it was because of these weather-related events.
27:28So we actually went to their insurance company for a Please Explain
27:31and they came back to us and confirmed
27:33it's not the weather-related events.
27:35What they've been doing is they've been phasing in this address-based pricing
27:39over the past couple of years
27:41and it's this huge risk of earthquakes to the Gracies' house,
27:45which is what's hiked up their premiums.
27:47Yeah, well, that sounds like pretty crappy information
27:49that they're getting and totally unfair.
27:53Yeah, I mean, they had a lot of things to say about the response.
27:56What did they say?
27:57But the one thing that Craig said was,
28:00it's just corporate waffle.
28:01Yeah, and, I mean, obviously that is the least delicious kind of waffle there is.
28:05Yeah.
28:05Waffles.
28:07Now, the other thing that stood out to me there
28:09was the economists saying that,
28:12look, insurance companies and banks can buy this information
28:14and get this information, you know, that homeowners can't.
28:18Yes, this is from Earth Sciences New Zealand.
28:20So we're familiar with NIWA and GNS.
28:22They've kind of merged together to create this entity.
28:24They're taxpayer-funded, but their model, their business model,
28:29is such that they require these commercial revenues.
28:32They require people or companies to come and pay for this data
28:36to keep their lights on.
28:37Wow, that sounds pretty crappy as well for the ordinary Kiwi.
28:40And I will be asking the Minister for Climate Change, Simon Watts,
28:43just that.
28:44Coming up, will the Minister give Kiwis any hope
28:48for the future of buying homes and insuring them in this country
28:51and getting the right information?
28:52And Karen talks to most of the people in New Zealand
28:55and one person in India on the hunt for a solution to illegal rubbish.
29:11Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues.
29:13And tonight we're investigating the rising cost of home insurance.
29:16So we asked the Insurance Council, who speak for the insurance companies,
29:20why premiums are so damn high.
29:22They said inflation, construction costs, global reinsurance costs
29:24and taxes and levies all contribute to rising costs.
29:28But what they also said, and I'll quote,
29:30insurers support the public provision of natural hazard data
29:33as the increased transparency and awareness of risk
29:35is a good thing for homeowners and communities.
29:38Translation, they reckon they want us to have the information
29:42they get as well.
29:43So now I want to ask the Minister of Climate Change, Simon Watts,
29:47about fair access to that crucial information.
29:50Minister, welcome to Paddy Gower Has Issues.
29:53And I will start with this.
29:55It's really a yes or no answer.
29:57Do you believe that Kiwis have access to the right kind of information
30:01about risk and hazards to their homes?
30:03Yes or no?
30:04No, I don't, Paddy.
30:06We've got a pretty significant gap in that space.
30:09And lack of information means that people don't have everything they need
30:12in order to make good decisions.
30:14And that's a major challenge, but also a major opportunity for us.
30:18And it's an opportunity that we've recognised that we need to close.
30:21And we're working our way through that in order to create a framework
30:24to make sure that that information is accessible to New Zealanders
30:27so they can make informed decisions in terms of where they build,
30:30where they live,
30:30and importantly then are more informed around potentially what the future climate
30:37may throw their way.
30:38So does your government, it sounds as if it does,
30:41have some plans to make some standardised, available, potentially free information,
30:46some sort of new form of information?
30:49Is that what you're talking about, Minister?
30:51We're currently working our way through some legislative policy design,
30:56which we're referring to as the National Climate Change Adaptation Framework.
31:01And basically that framework, a key pillar of that,
31:03probably 60 to 70% of that framework is focused on the data aspect.
31:08And we're working our way through that,
31:10and we're hopefully going to be in a position where our Cabinet
31:13would have reviewed that this side of Christmas,
31:15and we'll be able to implement that into law,
31:19and that'll be a positive step forward from where we are at the moment.
31:23OK. In the course of the show, we've talked to Earth Sciences,
31:25which is the old NIWA and GNS.
31:29They are keeping some information back.
31:32They're only making it available to people who pay for it.
31:35So people who pay for it, like insurance companies, can get it,
31:38but the ordinary Kiwi, like you're talking about, can't.
31:41Is that something you agree with?
31:42Yeah, I don't think that that is a tolerable position.
31:45As we move forward, it's just simply not good enough
31:47that the people within that community,
31:50average New Zealanders, do not have access to the information
31:52to make an informed decision around the risks in which they face.
31:55People have got enough challenges in their life right now
31:57with cost of living and all of that.
31:59The fact that they can't get information
32:01in regards to really important decisions around their livelihood
32:05and decisions that impact their family and whānau as well
32:09and the broader community
32:10is not a tolerable position from a status quo.
32:13So a couple of things on that.
32:15Will you talk to earth sciences?
32:17Will the government talk to earth sciences and just say,
32:20hey, we don't want you to do this anymore.
32:21We want you to make this available to everyone?
32:23We'll make some decisions on that in due course as a government,
32:27but it's definitely an active conversation right here, right now.
32:30So this, I'm going to ask you now to make some kind of promise
32:33to New Zealanders then, Minister.
32:35As the Minister of Climate Change,
32:37do you promise to give them better access,
32:42more available access, more standardised access
32:45to information about risks to your home?
32:47Do you make that promise here and now, Minister?
32:50Well, Paddy, it's not often I make promises to you,
32:54but luckily you said I'm making that promise
32:56to the New Zealand public
32:57and I'm very happy to make that commitment.
33:00Why?
33:00Because I've heard loud and clear from New Zealanders
33:03that this is a key aspect of information
33:05that is not accessible to them at the moment
33:08and that is not right.
33:10And we're talking about a new nationwide system here,
33:13aren't we?
33:14A new nationwide system of information access.
33:16We're talking about a mechanism
33:18that does not exist under the current status quo.
33:22That's correct.
33:23Thank you very much, Minister for Climate Change, Simon Watts.
33:27Great, Paddy.
33:28Thanks very much for inviting me today.
33:31Laura, is that good enough for Kiwis?
33:34Well, I think Kiwis will be really pleased with the outcome.
33:36That's what people want.
33:37We want to have the data to make these informed decisions
33:40about where we live and where our families live.
33:43Totally a good result.
33:44And thank you, Laura.
33:45I agree with you because tonight my issue
33:47was with what I have called a home value crisis
33:49and the solution here is simple.
33:52Kiwis must, must be given a fair go
33:55and fair warning about the way their home
33:57could be affected by floods and other events.
34:00That promise from the Climate Change Minister was good
34:02because he was talking about giving us clear,
34:04standardised, easy to act and correct information.
34:08Let's just hope he goes through with it
34:09because in my opinion, insurance companies
34:11or anyone else should not have access
34:13to information about risks to your home
34:16that you don't have.
34:17It is just plain wrong that government organisations
34:20appear to be selling it to others
34:22when we can't get it.
34:23So for me, it goes like this.
34:25This should be a priority
34:27for Christopher Luxon's government.
34:29It is their duty to give us this info.
34:31Get on with what Simon Watts was talking about
34:34because home ownership in New Zealand
34:35should now be based on a new mantra.
34:38Information, information, information.
34:45All right, coming up, it's Karen's turn
34:47and if illegal dumping, illegal dumping
34:49has ever frustrated you, sit back
34:51and let Karen discover some surprising facts
34:54and solve the issue.
34:56Welcome back to Paddy Gower Has Issues
35:08where it is time for Karen O'Leary
35:11to solve an issue for all of us.
35:14Now, whose issue are you solving today, Karen?
35:17Well, it really is an issue for everybody
35:19and obviously people have said in the past
35:21that all I do is talk rubbish.
35:23So, but tonight, I'm actually going to do that.
35:28You know, I'm going to investigate
35:30illegal rubbish dumping.
35:32Yeah.
35:32Okay, illegal dumping.
35:33Have you ever seen, like, you know,
35:34rubbish on the side of the road,
35:35a mattress here, a fridge here?
35:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:37Nappies and all that sort of thing.
35:39Yeah, I hate it.
35:40Actually, I'm a tidy Kiwi.
35:41I pick that sort of stuff up.
35:42I feel like it's sort of quite a concentrated effort
35:45these people sometimes have.
35:46I've done a few stories on illegal dumping.
35:48It's almost like there's a property
35:49that they'll drive to
35:50and they'll dump their rubbish
35:51and then...
35:52Yeah, well, even while we were filming
35:54for this, for the tonight,
35:56we were down at the end of a cul-de-sac
35:57and in that space of half an hour,
35:59four cars came, saw us,
36:01and then scarpered.
36:02So, basically, look,
36:03I've got to solve this issue
36:04for my new best friend, Tiana.
36:06Take a look.
36:09Rubbish, rubbish everywhere
36:11and all of it stinks.
36:13Swimming in a sea of trash,
36:15it really makes you think.
36:18You're actually going to look
36:19way taller than me now.
36:20Kia ora, Tiana.
36:21Kia ora, Karen.
36:21Hi, how's it going?
36:22Thank you so much for coming to talk to me
36:23in this beautiful park
36:24on this beautiful greyish day
36:26in Tamaki Makoto.
36:28Hey, look, what is your issue?
36:30Yeah, my issue is the amount of rubbish dumping
36:33that's been happening
36:33around our communities.
36:40There's rubbish flying all over the roads,
36:42rubbish flying into people's backyards.
36:45It makes us look like
36:47we're neglecting our land a little bit.
36:49So you care about cleanliness?
36:51Yeah.
36:51I started my own cleaning business
36:53with my sister.
36:54So you've got a cleaning business?
36:55Yeah.
36:55No wonder you care about the rubbish.
36:57What's it called?
36:58It's called TNT Cleaning.
37:00TNT Cleaning?
37:01Yeah.
37:01Explosive.
37:02Yeah.
37:02All right, well, look, Tiana,
37:04I'm going to go away
37:05and I'm going to think about this.
37:06Leave it with me.
37:07I'm on the job.
37:08Thank you, Karen.
37:09Nice meeting you.
37:09Lovely meeting you too.
37:12Tiana's right.
37:13It doesn't look very nice.
37:14And once you start noticing it,
37:16you can't stop seeing it.
37:17It's a pretty good old brother.
37:24It shouldn't be here.
37:26It should be here.
37:28To be disposed of properly
37:29or re-loved at one of Auckland's
37:3115 community recycling centres.
37:34I'm here talking about people
37:35that illegally dump their rubbish
37:36just out on the street.
37:38I mean...
37:38Ooh, yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
37:40I mean, why do you think people do it?
37:42Probably because it's convenient.
37:43Just lazy, can't be bothered
37:45to actually get up and go to the bin.
37:48Some people just dump rubbish.
37:50Easy, quick, don't have to kill up, dump up.
37:52What's the weirdest thing
37:53that you've probably seen
37:54dumped out on the street?
37:55Carcasses left to rot.
37:57Carcasses?
37:58Yeah, I'm from down south.
38:00Yeah, yeah.
38:01And what do you think about people
38:02that throw rubbish on the street?
38:04Not good, eh?
38:05No.
38:05Not good?
38:06Don't like it.
38:07That face says it all.
38:09If I want to clean up the streets for Tiana,
38:11the easiest solution
38:13is to change the place
38:14that makes the rules.
38:15I've grabbed myself
38:16an Auckland councillor.
38:17Ken Turner, councillor Ken Turner,
38:19thank you so much for having me.
38:20I'm here today to talk about
38:21illegal rubbish dumping,
38:23and I mean, it's a council issue,
38:24so, I mean, could you stop it, please?
38:29It's a community issue,
38:32and I think we should start
38:34by leading by example.
38:36You've talked to me about
38:37your slogan for the next election
38:39is just, what is it?
38:40Keeping it real.
38:40Keep it real.
38:41You know?
38:41But how are you going to keep it real
38:43in regards to just making people
38:45stop dumping their piles
38:46of old mattresses,
38:47washing machines,
38:48broken umbrellas
38:49just on the side of the road?
38:50I'm not trying to forgive
38:52the people who do that.
38:53Yeah.
38:53But I am trying to say
38:55that we've tried for too long
38:57to discipline them,
38:59ridicule them,
39:00and call them out.
39:01So you're not a fan
39:02of the yellow stickers?
39:03No.
39:03No.
39:04I'm a fan of someone
39:05going there the first time
39:06in a truck
39:06and picking it up
39:07and taking it away
39:08and keeping the environment
39:10clean,
39:11not soliciting other people
39:13to dump rubbish there.
39:15And I'm also a fan
39:17of some teeth
39:18for when we do find
39:20someone doing it
39:20and we prosecute properly.
39:23Well, the thing is,
39:24if you're looking through
39:24like illegally dumped rubbish,
39:26you probably will find
39:27some false teeth
39:28in and amongst it.
39:29Yeah.
39:29Because people are throwing away
39:29all sorts of things these days.
39:31So, as an Auckland councillor,
39:37what is Ken's biggest problem?
39:39There's a big disconnect
39:40between the rubbish man,
39:42the rubbish collector,
39:43and thinking inside
39:44the ivory tower.
39:46I'm presuming that's
39:47like a metaphor for...
39:49What is it, a metaphor?
39:51It's a metaphor for
39:52135 Albert Street.
39:55135 Albert Street
39:56is Auckland Council,
39:58which is where Ken works.
39:59The council's biggest problem
40:01is the council.
40:03This could be tougher
40:04than I thought.
40:06Before I go back
40:07to the ivory tower
40:08of Auckland Council,
40:09to get a solution,
40:10I need to get out
40:11in front of the issue.
40:12And to do that,
40:13I have to go
40:14behind the issue.
40:18A bit of rubbish dumping
40:19might not seem like
40:20a big deal,
40:21but like grains of sand
40:22on a beach
40:22or hundreds and thousands
40:23on a piece of fairy bread,
40:25a lot of a little thing
40:26really adds up.
40:27In Auckland,
40:28there are more than
40:281,300 reports
40:30of illegal dumping
40:31every month,
40:32which is more than
40:3340 a day.
40:34Auckland Council
40:35cleans up an average
40:35of 36,000 kilograms
40:37of illegally dumped
40:39items every month,
40:40which is about
40:41the weight
40:41of a humpback whale.
40:43Or, to put it
40:43into more relatable terms,
40:45about 1,343
40:46of my dog, Stevie's.
40:48Now, that is a lot
40:49of Stevie's.
40:49Good dog.
40:50Now, what's the cost
40:51of this constant dumping?
40:52Well,
40:53$2.7 million a year.
40:55And it's been rising
40:56$200,000 each year
40:58since 2022.
41:00As a Wellingtonian,
41:01I have to ask the question,
41:03is it because Aucklanders
41:04just don't give a shit?
41:06It turns out,
41:07no.
41:07Looking after our environment
41:08is increasingly important
41:10to us as Kiwis.
41:11Kantar's 2025
41:12Better Futures survey
41:13had pollution,
41:14managing waste
41:15and protection of our land
41:16in the top environmental
41:17concerns of Kiwis.
41:19So, we should be sending
41:20illegal rubbish numbers
41:21to jail forever,
41:22right?
41:23Wrong.
41:23Even if you wanted to,
41:24and it is a really bad idea
41:25to be honest,
41:26you wouldn't be able to anyway.
41:28Currently, councils are hamstrung
41:30by outdated litter rules
41:31that were established
41:31back in 1979.
41:33So, our main litter law
41:35is older than Channing Tatum.
41:37Not my cover tea.
41:39Our current laws suck so much
41:40that right now
41:41you have to basically
41:42be caught red-handed
41:43to really face any consequences.
41:45And there's only so much
41:46the litter control officers
41:47can do.
41:48But, like a teenager's body,
41:50that might be changing
41:50sooner than you think.
41:52I'm just tripped over.
41:54The current government
41:55is in the process
41:56of amending the
41:57Waste Minimisation Act
41:58and the Litter Act.
41:59They want to combine them
42:00into a new and relevant act,
42:02which hasn't been named yet,
42:03but I reckon it should be called
42:04the Waste Assimilation Protocols
42:06or WAP.
42:07It's currently being crafted,
42:10but it proposes way more flexibility
42:12and teeth for enforcement.
42:14If the proposals go through,
42:15litter officers will be able
42:16to use vehicle registration
42:17and ownership details
42:19to ping dumpers.
42:20And they'll finally be able
42:21to use evidence like letters
42:23and traceable items
42:24and dump rubbish
42:25to track down offenders.
42:26So stronger and more
42:27flexible enforcement
42:28might be coming soon.
42:29And that was behind the issue.
42:31Hey, so what's the likely progress
42:37on this?
42:37Did you talk to those ministers?
42:39Well, obviously I wanted to
42:40and I tried to,
42:41but Penny Simmons
42:42and Andrew Hoggard,
42:43they didn't want to comment on it
42:45while they're trying
42:46to get something processed.
42:47So hopefully they will get
42:48those changes in place
42:49for the new bill,
42:51basically.
42:52So what the hell
42:52are you going to do then?
42:53Well, there's lots of things
42:54I could do,
42:55but the one big thing
42:56that I really think
42:57is going to make
42:57the biggest difference
42:58is behavioural change.
43:00So basically what I'm going to do
43:01is I'm just going to
43:02change everyone's behaviour.
43:04Okay, right.
43:05Look forward to seeing this
43:07change everyone's behaviour.
43:09Oh my goodness.
43:09Coming up,
43:10Karen consults the experts though,
43:12acts shifty
43:12and cracks someone up
43:14in an effort
43:15to kick
43:16illegal rubbish dumpings
43:18buttocks.
43:28Welcome back to
43:29Paddy Gower Has Issues
43:30and Karen O'Leary
43:31is trying to help a Kiwi
43:32who is absolutely sick
43:34of illegal rubbish dumping
43:35near her home.
43:36It's not as easy
43:37as you thought it would be,
43:39is it Karen,
43:39this one?
43:40Well, no, no,
43:41it's not as easy
43:41as I thought.
43:42So how are you going
43:43to stop people dumping
43:44because that's what
43:44you said you'd do?
43:45Check it out.
43:48If I want to change
43:54the behaviour
43:54of these rubbish dumpers,
43:56I have to get
43:56inside their heads.
43:58I couldn't find
43:59a brain surgeon
43:59but I found another doctor
44:01who can help.
44:02So I am Dr. Ranjit Kaur.
44:05I did my PhD
44:06with respect to
44:07anti-littering behaviour
44:08in India.
44:09Why do you think
44:10people do this?
44:11People often don't feel
44:13personally responsible.
44:15There's this weird idea
44:16that someone else
44:17will see it up for me.
44:19Is that a little bit like
44:19when you,
44:20if you have children
44:21and they never pick
44:22up their mess
44:23because they think
44:24their parents
44:24will do it for them?
44:25Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:26Something like social proof
44:27becomes very dangerous
44:29when we are normalising
44:30a wrong behaviour.
44:32What do you mean
44:32by social proof?
44:34You know,
44:35you see other people
44:36around you
44:37and your social circle,
44:38everyone is doing it.
44:39So let's say,
44:40you know,
44:40you kill a person,
44:41right?
44:42So you know
44:42your social circle
44:43is going to say
44:43that it is wrong behaviour.
44:45Whereas when you're littering,
44:47you will not think
44:48I'm doing something bad.
44:49So it is basically
44:50in a way
44:51that's probably,
44:52that's the concept.
44:54I mean,
44:54one of the kind of things
44:55that would be good
44:56for us to do
44:57as a country
44:57to try and stop,
44:59they're like,
44:59what do you think
44:59we could do?
45:00All humans
45:01are social learners.
45:02So if you communicate
45:03that most people here
45:04dispose of waste properly,
45:06you know,
45:07signs like that,
45:08it would probably
45:08nudge people
45:09to fall in line.
45:10If they thought
45:11people were watching them,
45:12would that help?
45:13Interestingly,
45:13just the feeling
45:14of being watched,
45:16it does change behaviour,
45:17right?
45:18So for example,
45:18people in malls
45:20where there are CCTVs,
45:21they do not litter
45:21their mouths,
45:22right?
45:23Oh yeah,
45:23let's say mules with eyes.
45:28So it's subtle psychology,
45:30but it does,
45:31it does work.
45:31So all I've got to do
45:32is take everything
45:33that you've just said to me
45:34and apply that in New Zealand
45:36and I'll be able
45:37to fix the problem,
45:38basically.
45:39Yeah, yeah,
45:39I hope so,
45:40I hope so,
45:41I hope so.
45:41I'm pretty confident,
45:42I'm feeling confident,
45:43yeah.
45:44And there's plenty
45:45of other signs
45:45that backstocked to care up.
45:47A research group
45:48in Cornwall
45:48tested different sign types
45:50to see what was
45:51the most effective
45:51in reducing littering.
45:53It found that
45:53signs threatening fines
45:55didn't reduce
45:55the amount of rubbish
45:56and signs saying
45:57it made the community sad
45:58didn't reduce it either.
46:00So what did work?
46:01Signs saying you're being watched
46:03and signs emphasising
46:04positive social norms.
46:05So let's see if I can do
46:06some good
46:07with my own signs.
46:08So signage works
46:16but they have to be
46:17just the right signs.
46:18Yeah, that's right.
46:19I mean it really is
46:20a social thing
46:21so it's about how you feel
46:22so like you say
46:23the thought of being watched
46:24can really change behaviour
46:26and also you know
46:27like that thing of
46:28you know you're doing
46:29the wrong thing.
46:30So yeah.
46:31I have watched someone
46:32recently do this.
46:34What, shocking?
46:34So in my neighbourhood
46:35this guy came out
46:37of the dairy
46:37guzzled like a can
46:39of energy drink
46:40and just screwed it up
46:42and just chucked it
46:43in the gutter
46:43and I saw him
46:44and so I went up to him
46:45and I said
46:45Oi, did you just do that?
46:47Just confirming it was him.
46:48Yeah.
46:49It was
46:49and then he just got his vape
46:51he goes
46:51and just confirmed
46:56and then I said
46:57well pick it up bro
46:58and he got out
46:59and he picked it up.
47:00So I'll just clean up
47:01my community you know.
47:01Yeah well you are
47:02you are the actual Karen here.
47:05Yeah.
47:05You are the actual Karen really.
47:07So Karen you need
47:08Karen DePoe to be
47:09doing what you do.
47:11So what's next in this?
47:12Okay well basically
47:13I'm going to go back
47:13to the council
47:14and get them to
47:15you know
47:15come on board
47:16with my solution.
47:18I'm armed with some science
47:20and ready to take on
47:21the big bad boss
47:22at Auckland Council's
47:23Ivory Town.
47:25I will not leave
47:26until I get them
47:27to do something.
47:28Get ready
47:29for the fight
47:30of your life.
47:30Thank you Karen.
47:33So I'm Justine Haves
47:34I'm the general manager
47:35of Waste Solutions
47:36at Auckland Council.
47:38I mean what are you doing
47:39specifically
47:40to stop people
47:41from dumping rubbish
47:42illegally?
47:43So we're doing
47:44a range of things.
47:45We have facility
47:46on our website
47:47called Where It Goes
47:48so people
47:49people who are looking
47:50to dispose of something
47:51and they're not sure
47:51how to
47:52can go to our website
47:53and find a range
47:54of options
47:54to get rid of something.
47:55We have awareness campaigns.
47:58We really encourage residents
47:59to report illegal dumping.
48:01In hotspots around Auckland
48:02we use cameras.
48:03Our inorganic collection
48:04encouraging people
48:05to use licensed operators
48:07that collect evidence
48:08on the people
48:09that are doing this.
48:10Advocating for extended
48:11product stewardship schemes
48:14which is a free service
48:15available for Aucklanders.
48:17Differential pricing.
48:18The TireWise scheme
48:19upcoming spring clean up
48:20kind of promotion
48:21and get a 10% discount
48:22during August and September.
48:25That was a comprehensive answer.
48:26It made a lot of sense.
48:27I can see rubbish
48:29is a massive
48:30complicated issue
48:32and I'm not talking rubbish
48:33when I say that.
48:34Is there anything
48:35that you aren't doing
48:36at the moment
48:37that you'd really love to do
48:38if you're allowed to?
48:39There's a high threshold
48:41for enforcement
48:42and I think that's important
48:44because we do need
48:45to make sure
48:46that we are obviously
48:47pursuing the actual offender
48:49and not somebody else.
48:50But in reality
48:51enforcement
48:51is a really good deterrent
48:53especially for repeat offenders.
48:56OK.
48:56now it's time
48:57to unleash my solution
48:58on the city of Auckland.
49:00I have done
49:01some research of my own
49:02and what I've actually
49:03come up with
49:04which I'm more than happy
49:05to share with you
49:06would you consider
49:07using these?
49:08Just it.
49:13Again it's just like
49:13just those people
49:14someone's watching
49:15you know
49:15so there's that one
49:16I've also got
49:17you know
49:17that makes you feel
49:18good about yourself
49:19you put your rubbish
49:19in the bin
49:20you're a good person
49:21you know
49:21that's kind of nice
49:22and then that one
49:23as well
49:23very good
49:26yes I mean
49:26I'll just leave them
49:27with you
49:28so you're more than
49:29welcome to use those
49:30as you see fit
49:31thank you
49:32Justine is lovely
49:34and wants to help out
49:35but I don't have time
49:36to wait
49:36I'm taking my work
49:39to the streets myself
49:40Paddy doesn't take dumps
49:56Sorry sorry
49:56Paddy doesn't take dumps
49:57No look
49:58it was autocorrected
49:59I was just supposed to say
50:00Paddy doesn't do dumping
50:01Yeah sorry sorry
50:02Yeah because I do take dumps
50:04I do take dumps
50:04Now what have you
50:05We don't need to go into that
50:08No no we don't
50:09there's another issue
50:10together
50:10How are you going to
50:11solve this though
50:12Well I mean obviously
50:13the government is working
50:14on new enforcement rules
50:15which is going to be good
50:16you know
50:16but for Tiana and others
50:17who want to do something
50:18you know right now
50:19to fix this problem
50:20I've actually you know
50:21the signs that you saw
50:22are there
50:22I've made a website
50:24and they're all going to be
50:25on there along with
50:25some information
50:26so you've got
50:27you can download
50:28your own sign
50:29and put them up
50:30around your neighbourhood
50:30so yeah get on
50:31the website
50:32it's at paddygower.kiwi
50:34there's also a QR code
50:36that you can scan
50:36I never understand
50:37how those things work
50:38but yeah that's what
50:39that's what you can do
50:40Well thank you very much
50:41Karen O'Leary
50:42and thank you for your
50:43investigations tonight
50:43Karen Tepoe
50:44and thank you also
50:46to the studio audience
50:47you've been amazing
50:48and of course
50:49all the people who shared
50:50their stories
50:50and their issues
50:51your issues
50:51with us tonight
50:52see you next Tuesday
50:55because I've still got issues
50:57and we've still got issues
50:58cheer
50:59I've got no issues
51:03with New Zealand on Air
51:04thank you
51:05New Zealand on Air
51:07I've got no issues
51:08I've got no issues
51:09I've got no issues
51:10I've got no issues
51:11I've got no issues
51:12I've got no issues
51:13I've got no issues
51:14I've got no issues
51:15I've got no issues
51:16I've got no issues
51:17I've got no issues
51:18I've got no issues
51:19I've got no issues
51:20I've got no issues
51:21I've got no issues
51:22I've got no issues
51:23I've got no issues
51:24I've got no issues
51:25I've got no issues
51:26I've got no issues
51:27I've got no issues
51:28I've got no issues
51:29I've got no issues
51:30I've got no issues
51:31I've got no issues
51:32I've got no issues
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