Islam and the NAR: A Study in Religious Dominion | Bob Scott | Podcast Episode 420 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Bob discuss the parallels between the New Apostolic Reformation and aspects of Islam, focusing on how both use structures of authority, wealth, and control. They highlight how religious movements throughout history have sought to dominate through institutions, often blending faith with political or cultural power. The conversation explores the danger of leaders who claim unique spiritual authority and the way these systems create dependency through fear and promises of blessing.  They also examine historical events, such as oil politics in the Middle East, and how cultural misunderstandings helped shape modern dynamics. Drawing from personal experiences and historical knowledge, John and Bob compare themes of prosperity, population growth, and information control in both systems. They conclude by reflecting on Jesus’ teachings as an alternative to domination, emphasizing compassion, humility, and authentic relationships over institutionalized control.  00:00 Introduction 00:31 Comparing NAR and Islamic Extremism 02:51 The Human Drive to Control Others 05:14 Mike Bickle and Dominionist Thinking 09:02 Caliphate Theology and Global Domination 10:50 Narcissistic Leaders and Apocalyptic Urgency 13:10 Checks and Balances vs. One-Man Rule 15:10 Oil, Saudi Arabia, and the Bush Connection 19:09 Osama bin Laden’s Rise and Motives 23:09 Democracy Export and Middle East Conflicts 24:05 Prosperity Gospel vs. Islamic Wealth Displays 25:28 Illicit Funding and Religious Power 28:00 Jesus’ Anti-Materialism vs. Prosperity Thinking 30:00 Population Growth as a Strategy 33:34 The Branham Cult and Growth by Birth 35:00 Core Islam vs. Extremist Islam 37:34 American Christianity and Extremist Breakaways 40:00 Takia, Lies for a Holy End, and Cult Parallels 45:15 The Man of God Model and Corruption 48:26 Recruitment Through Needs and Dependency 50:27 Prophetic History as Carrot and Threat 52:38 Leaving Cults and the Journey to Healing 55:06 Institutionalized Religion and Distrust 57:00 Jesus’ Teaching vs. Transactional Christianity 58:07 Loving the Outsider: Jesus’ Example 59:12 Finding Common Ground with Muslims ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org. And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder

00:00:47of the Kansas City Fellowship and author of three books. The latest is Some Said They Blundered,

00:00:52Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets, and the International

00:00:57House of Prayer. Bob, right before this, you pitched the idea for the podcast for today.

00:01:03And interestingly, this is something that I see as a theme coming up continually in our

00:01:09comment feeds, but from the opposite direction. And today we're going to be talking a little

00:01:14bit about the similarities between the New Apostolic Reformation and some of the components of its

00:01:21history and Islamic extremism. I have had numerous people over the years. I started, actually started

00:01:30doing this in 2012. One of my YouTube sites they took down. But if you look at the old site, if it

00:01:36still existed, and you look at the new one, you'll find people saying, why are you attacking the

00:01:40Christians? Islam is out there. They're so far worse. And I think people don't realize whenever,

00:01:47number one, I'm not attacking. I'm showing that there's a lot of fraudulent activities and a lot

00:01:52of mind control, manipulation, et cetera, within certain individuals who are key players in the

00:02:00NAR movement and its history. But I don't think they realize the similarities between those people

00:02:05that we're exposing and what is actually brewing on the other side of the pond. So if we've come to

00:02:12our front door. That has come to our front door. But if you look at both, in my opinion,

00:02:20there are two forces of evil brewing and growing that are equal but against each other. And then

00:02:27the rest of the Christian world who are not part of this thing, they're kind of caught in the middle

00:02:31between this. So there's a lot to unpack there. I won't go too far with it. But today we're going

00:02:36to talk about the similarities between the New Apostolic Reformation and Islamic extremists.

00:02:41Yeah, we need to. And as we were discussing, again, this is my perspective. I wrote a book,

00:02:52you know, what's almost five years ago about how I believe that artificial intelligence was going to

00:03:01become in time a next essential threat to everything that Christians believe about God and all that.

00:03:09What I haven't really written about, but I've been pondering it is the threat that Islam is as well.

00:03:19And what we're talking about are the two sons of Abraham, which is sort of interesting,

00:03:23because this all actually goes right back to Abraham. But as we were discussing, it's interesting

00:03:33because first of all, there is a default setting and a historical default setting that's rooted in

00:03:42the human lust for status and stuff. And that dynamic is humans want to control other humans.

00:03:52That's been the historical record. It's never not been that way. It started all the way back when we were

00:04:01tribal, and it's continued on to this day. How humans control other humans is either through technology

00:04:10or institutionalism, right? They, they, and, and religion has historically been, um, and government have

00:04:20been that, you know, the two primary institutions. So for, you know, probably what, um, 1500 years,

00:04:29the Catholic church through its institutional hierarchy and its marriage to government,

00:04:38i.e. the Holy Roman empire, it controlled mass swaths of human population, right? Using fear

00:04:46as its primary motivator. Then we see this whole thing that's emerged in, uh, in our lifetime with

00:04:57the whole concept of Christian nationalism or, um, you know, dominionism or whatever we want to talk

00:05:05about. And that's, it's that same kind of thing again, right? Only this time it's the evangelical

00:05:09community is going to take over, right? Where it gets kind of bizarre for me was back in the 1980s.

00:05:18I had a very intense, um, I don't want to say argument, but a debate with Mike Bickle about all

00:05:26this because in the 1980s, he was so convinced, and this is important to understand this because this is

00:05:32how a lot of these guys think, and I'm talking about the religious leaders, Mike was convinced

00:05:39that this billion soul revival that was coming, that was going to unlock, um, dominionism, right?

00:05:50Where the Christians were going to take over the seven mountains and all this kind of, and all this

00:05:56kind of stuff were, was going to be administrated by religious leaders. In other words, the guys that

00:06:04were driving this message in the future, we're going to be the guys over these seven realms, which

00:06:12just blew my mind because I just said to him, I go, Mike, we've already had that. It was called the

00:06:17Catholic church. It was a disaster, right? Whenever religious leaders try to rule anything, it's a mess.

00:06:25It always has been. You know what I mean? I don't, I can't think of anywhere where it's worked, right?

00:06:32And so anyways, but that's literally what's driving a lot of the guys that have this kind of worldview.

00:06:38They're going to take over, right? The third piece of this is what we're, what we want to talk about

00:06:45now is Islam. And the reason why this is important is because before 9-11, very few of us had any

00:06:53knowledge of Islam other than the fact it was a religion in a remote other part of the world in

00:07:01a culture that was so backwards that they were stuck in the medieval ages and they were of no

00:07:07significance other than the fact they kept pumping oil and we needed it for our cars. Nobody really

00:07:14anticipated them being a force, right? Because they were so backwards. Suddenly now they're a force.

00:07:21Well, how did that happen? And not only a force, a significant force.

00:07:28Now for me, just backstory here, I'll give you a couple things. And one was I got a precursor to

00:07:35this in the 1990s that this was coming. And it just so happened that I was in the music business and I

00:07:42was touring Europe and I had probably the most significant evangelical pastor in Berlin asked to

00:07:49meet with me. And in the course of the conversation, he said to me, I'm on the city council of Berlin and

00:07:58we're struggling immensely. And I said, Peter, what's going on? And he said, well, in your culture,

00:08:05you have the Hispanics as your kind of blue collar labors. They're doing your crops, they're doing your

00:08:13hotels, they're, you know, they're doing your landscaping, they're doing all that kind of

00:08:17stuff. In our culture, it's the Turks, but they're all Muslim. And where your Hispanics are coming in

00:08:26and by and large integrating with American culture, the Islamic Turks are isolating themselves and refuse

00:08:34to integrate into our culture. And I looked at him and I said, Peter, I don't think you understand

00:08:40what's coming. And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, Bob, we're failing. I go, you're gonna fail.

00:08:49And he goes, what do you mean? I said, you're up against a religious worldview, a theology that's not

00:08:57about integrating with you, it's about conquering you. They have a dominion theology. They believe

00:09:06that there's a caliphate coming. There's going to be a great Islamic leader that's going to unify all

00:09:12the tribes together, all of Islam together, and they are going to rule the world. He was just stunned.

00:09:20Like, this is one of the leading pastors who never had really studied Islam to understand

00:09:25that they have an agenda.

00:09:27They do. And a lot of people don't realize and recognize the problems with our current political

00:09:33system because of this. So, let's talk through this a bit. Islam is usually this word. When you

00:09:40think Islam, you're thinking 9-11, you're thinking the guys that fly airplanes into buildings, this kind

00:09:46of thing, suicide bombers. But much like the New Apostolic Reformation, it is a religious system

00:09:52that is hell-bent on domination. They want to control the world. Where the NAR has apostles

00:09:59and prophets, Islamic extremism, they have religious leaders and imams. But the similarities

00:10:07between them are uncanny. They have unquestionable authority. And they basically become the sole

00:10:13interpreter of the divine will of Allah or whatever. Whereas in the NAR, it's the divine interpretation,

00:10:21the rhema, the spoken word of God. So, you have leadership that are very controlling, very

00:10:28narcissistic. I mean, it is an extremist cult whenever you look at Islamic extremism. But

00:10:35the key to understand is, both in the NAR and in Islamic extremism, there is the idea that

00:10:43they want to create a global, not a regional, but a global theocracy.

00:10:49It's called a caliphate in their term.

00:10:53Yeah.

00:10:54And you look through history, look at all of the disruptive cult leaders. John Alexander

00:10:59Dowie is a good example. He created, in America, the theocratic party in America and tried to

00:11:05take over Washington. His ambition was to first conquer Washington. I have no doubt, had he succeeded,

00:11:12had, you know, had he continued before he lost his mind, he would have had a global ambition,

00:11:17because that's what a narcissist does. So, when you get a cult leader, narcissist cult leader

00:11:22in power, they want global domination. That's, look at Napoleon, look at, you can look at any

00:11:28one of these figures who has been risen, been given the power that was unquestioned. They rise to that

00:11:37level. So, both have this, but the key to understand is, in both sides, Islamic extremism

00:11:44and the NAR, you combine all of this with an apocalyptic worldview, and now it becomes militant.

00:11:51The world is about to end. We must hurry. There is no stopping it. We must fight or die. That's what it

00:11:57comes down to. Yeah, it's interesting. See, I think, I mean, you know, I've got connections in my dad's

00:12:06side of the family that go back to the Continental Congress. My grandmother's grandmother's uncle was

00:12:15Dr. Benjamin Rush. He signed the Declaration of Independence. So, I've spent a lot of time kind of

00:12:22studying just that whole time period, and I've always been fascinated about how the liberal press

00:12:29and even the universities want to downplay the influence of Christianity in shaping our early

00:12:38founding fathers' worldview. Because if you go read all their private letters, it's just rampant

00:12:44through everything. You can see, you know, it's like they look at the documents, and because there's,

00:12:49you know, not a lot of religious terminology in there, they make this assumption that they weren't,

00:12:56but you read their private letters, especially Dr. Rush. I mean, Dr. Rush was, you know, the, you know,

00:13:02founder of American medicine, you know, there's a whole lot of stuff in there. But what's interesting

00:13:08is they seem to have an understanding that there is a brokenness in human nature where humans want to

00:13:16control other humans, right? Humans want to, you know, they want to rule over others and then have

00:13:27an autocratic system where one guy basically tells everybody what to do. So, they tried to set up a

00:13:33system that would prevent that. In other words, I think they were so keenly aware of how broken

00:13:39humanity was. They tried to come up with a system that would have checks and balances, right?

00:13:44And make sure that doesn't happen. Well, you get outside of that world, and you get into the

00:13:51religious world, what do we have? We have a pope, right? We have these, you know, what do they call

00:14:00the guy in Iran? You know, the senior, supreme leader, right? And he dictates everything. You see

00:14:07these one man rule kind of environments, right? It's like one guy, and he could be nuts, right? The

00:14:15guy could be completely insane, and yet the whole system, you know, is being controlled. So, one of

00:14:22the things that I'm going to venture into here, which is going to probably surprise some people,

00:14:28but it will be good for you to understand what really was going on with 9-11. Because one of the

00:14:36crazy things about where we are right now is the reason why Islam is infiltrating the West at such a

00:14:46high speed is because of us. In other words, just in the same way that we've kind of shot ourselves in

00:14:54the foot by taking a backwards country like China, going over there, teaching them how to

00:15:00manufacture, and then giving them complete control of all of our supply chain, it's created a huge

00:15:08problem for us, a vulnerability. Well, we did the same thing with Islam. And how did we do that?

00:15:14Oil. Americans wanted lots of gas, and they wanted it cheap, right? So, how does this all start? This

00:15:21will fascinate some of you, because there's a history here that's intriguing. So, in the early,

00:15:28let me go back here. So, we all know that George W. Bush was president, and we also know that his

00:15:36father, George H. Bush, was president. What few people know is that George W. Bush's grandfather,

00:15:44and George H. Bush's father was Preston Bush. And what Preston Bush is well known for was going to

00:15:55Saudi Arabia and discovering oil under the sand. And Preston Bush became very, very good friends

00:16:05with the king. Well, the king who was, so the reason it's called Saudi Arabia, because it's the

00:16:12house of Saud. The Saud tribe controls all the other tribes in Saudi Arabia, right? Because people

00:16:19don't understand that, a lot of times don't understand that the Arabic world is still very

00:16:23tribal, just like Africa. They don't talk about it a lot, but they're all very aware of it. That's

00:16:28where a lot of the conflict comes from. So, the king, so, Preston Bush brings his Texas oil men over

00:16:35there, and they start drilling, and they pull the black gold out of the sand, right? And this goes on

00:16:43and on and on to the point where all of these Islamic countries now are rolling in more money than you can

00:16:52even fathom, right? But what happened as they ended up getting more and more wealthy? Well, to understand

00:17:05Islam, there's two main branches, and there's a third branch that's really under one of them. So, when

00:17:13Muhammad died in around 700 AD, Islam split. There was a fight between his nephew,

00:17:22and an uncle, and so, it ended up splitting to where you have what's called the Shia,

00:17:29and you have the Sunni, right? So, the big Iraq war, Iraq-Iran war, was the Shia in Iran fighting the

00:17:39Sunni in Iraq. There was, you know, Saddam, you know, that whole mess, right? Anyway, so, there's always been

00:17:47this conflict. Well, in the early 1900s, there was a Muslim prophet who came to Saudi Arabia and said,

00:17:56we've lost our way, we've compromised, we've become sinful and materialistic, and therefore,

00:18:04there was a, what we call, what we would call in Christianity, a revival. That's called the Wahhabis.

00:18:11They're the Wahhabis, right? So, the reason why Saudi Arabia is the most extreme when it comes to

00:18:17Sharia law, right? Where they cut your hand off, they'll cut your head off, they'll stone women,

00:18:23all of that is because of this revival that happened in the early 1900s. So, they view themselves as the

00:18:30preservers of pure Islam, right? That's why you go to Mecca, all of that. They're considered the

00:18:37holy group. Well, what happened to that holy group? They got rich. And what did they do with

00:18:42their wealth? They bought yachts. They started gambling in Monaco, right? They were, they were

00:18:50into sex trafficking, young women. They were into drugs. This thing, they, the royal families

00:18:58ended up falling into just rampant immorality. In Saudi Arabia, kind of off the grid, is a guy

00:19:11named Osama bin Laden, who is watching this take place in the royal family and goes, again,

00:19:19like what happened in the early 1900s with this, you know, Muslim prophet that we've lost their way,

00:19:25decides he's the new prophet. He's Elijah. And he's going to bring correction to the wayward

00:19:34sod family, right? So, he starts a conflict. But here's this problem. You know who he blames

00:19:43for their waywardness? The Bushes. If you notice, before the, you know, the king, the original king

00:19:55has died. But whenever he came to America, you know where he always went first? Midland, Texas.

00:20:02He wouldn't go to Washington, D.C. Why did he go to Midland? That's where the Bush empire is. That's

00:20:08where the Bush family oil money is, right? That's the friendship. So, Bin Laden's watching all this

00:20:14going, it's the Bush family. They're the ones that have corrupted us. They're the prophets of Baal.

00:20:23America's the prophets of Baal. They've corrupted my culture, my family. They've corrupted Islam.

00:20:30And so, he decides that he's on a mission for God. And he is going to restore the royal family

00:20:41and Saudi Arabia back to its pure Islamic destiny. And so, when 9-11 happens, what's sad is that the

00:20:52American press is so profoundly ignorant of Islam and the historical dynamics, they then try to

00:21:03communicate what's happening to all of us through a political lens. And they're failing miserably

00:21:08because it doesn't really make sense, right? Here's where it gets bizarre. Why, after 9-11 happens,

00:21:18do we attack Saddam? Saddam didn't cause 9-11, right? A lot of people have never connected the dots.

00:21:30Why? Well, the reason was, is that Saddam is another branch of Islam and Saddam's running around

00:21:38pretending he's got weapons of mass destruction. The Saudis have no military. They have no way to

00:21:46defend themselves. But what do they have? They have us. We're their protectors. We're the guys that

00:21:54have power. So, the Saudis come to us and say, hey, we don't, you know, we don't want an attack

00:22:01from Saddam Hussein. You got to take them out. So, we actually do the Saudis bidding in order to

00:22:08maintain the oil flowing, right? To maintain this relationship. So, we become the policeman or the

00:22:14enforcer in the Middle East. That's how we get sucked into this whole thing, right? And we get pulled

00:22:21right into this thing. So, as I said to people, this is the absurdity of the whole thing that happened

00:22:27in the 2000s, is that our government is so profoundly ignorant of Islam and the dynamics that are involved

00:22:38in it that they unbelievably, naively think that they're going to bring democracy to the Middle East,

00:22:47right? I mean, if you even have a bit of understanding of how Islam works and the, you know,

00:22:54the dynamics behind it and its religious worldview, you would understand how profoundly stupid idea that

00:23:01is, right? But we're so convinced because we're America and it works here and we're going to export it

00:23:07around the world, not understanding that we literally inserted ourselves into a 1,300-year-old war,

00:23:14right? Like, we're going to jump into this thing that's just been going on for 1,300 years

00:23:22where these three sides are all in conflict with each other and we're going to solve it

00:23:27by implementing democracy. Well, guess what? It's been an absolute disaster.

00:23:33It has. And I want to make a connection here that not many people make. Everybody misses this,

00:23:39and I'm actually a little surprised that they all miss it. So, you mentioned how they came to Texas,

00:23:46right? Because there's where they see the money and power, right there in Texas, in the Bush family.

00:23:52If you understand how Islam works and understand the significance of what you just said,

00:23:58now compare it to the prosperity gospel. In the prosperity gospel, God is giving you divine favor

00:24:06because he's making you – he's giving you money. That's what the message of the prosperity gospel

00:24:11is. Whenever somebody – whenever these religious leaders flaunt their airplanes or their gold chains

00:24:17or whatever it is, they say, God is blessing me and God can bless you too, my friend. Well,

00:24:23if you understand the concept of how different that is from the actual gospel and then compare it to

00:24:29Islamic extremism, even in the movies, whenever there's some bad guy Islamic leader who's in

00:24:36Islamic extremism, they're flaunting the gold Cadillacs, the gold necklaces, the gold weapons. I mean,

00:24:43they flaunt it to no end. And there's a reason why they do that. Because if they show money, wealth,

00:24:52power, sex, anything like that, very much like the prosperity gospel, they're displaying that God

00:25:00is giving them favor and therefore they're the ones empowered. That's exactly right. So,

00:25:04on both sides, it is exactly equal. Both of them are equal. And one of the – Which is why it's so

00:25:12dangerous that theology is so dangerous, right? Because here we have a group that wants to take

00:25:18us all out who has the same worldview, right? Absolutely. And I hate to go here, but I have to

00:25:24because we're talking about Islamic extremism and something else that – it ties back to what you said.

00:25:30In Islamic extremism, there is the concept that you – it's almost like forced donations. There's

00:25:37mandatory almsgiving. They have a name for it. I can't remember what that name is. But basically,

00:25:43it's like the tithe, the tithe system of the Pentecostal charismatics. But outside of that,

00:25:51there's also this hidden blessing for those who are doing the sometimes illicit funding. You go into

00:25:59the oil smuggling, the – all kinds of problematic things that they're doing. Well, that money is

00:26:06going back into the religion. And so, the ones who are doing it are saints. The ones who are in power

00:26:13are blessing them, knowing that the money was illicit money. Compare that to some of the things

00:26:19that has been exposed in the NAR. It's not as openly blessed as Islam, but they're doing the same

00:26:24things. Because when you have something that is built on that type of architecture, where power,

00:26:32money is displays of God's favor, it's not really the Christian God. So, you have two different

00:26:38things that are very, very similar in nature. The difference is one of them uses the word Jesus

00:26:43Christ in their speeches. And so, everybody thinks, well, that's not as bad as Islam. But if you actually

00:26:48compare the architecture of the two, they are one and the same.

00:26:51Well, and again, it's religion, right? It's a religious worldview. I mean, the Catholic

00:26:57Church had it as well. Right? You know, the thing that – you know, the thing I struggle with,

00:27:05and again, I'm just throwing it out there because, you know, even at my age, I still have more

00:27:11questions than I have answers and I ponder a lot. But I cannot say in my lifetime that I have seen many

00:27:24religious leaders that have the capacity to handle status and stuff. It's weird. I see it in the

00:27:33business world, and it's maybe because they're trained, but even there's a struggle there. But it's

00:27:39very interesting to me how often those two things end up destroying the lives of religious leaders.

00:27:51You know? And then you go back to Jesus' teaching, right? Where he seems to so often warn people

00:28:01about the trappings, right? And to a point where he's almost anti-materialism, right? He's anti-gathering

00:28:12status and stuff where he says, if you've got two, give one away, right? Well, that's the antithesis of

00:28:19American prosperity thinking, right? Because if you have two, well, God wants you to have 10,

00:28:25right? So you go to get more, right? And this is where I find myself in these head-on collisions

00:28:34often with not only sometimes our, you know, the American dream or the prosperity gospel with the

00:28:43message of Jesus in the kingdom of God, because the kingdom of God is all about laying your life down

00:28:48for others. It's loving others, caring for others, sacrificing for others. And these two things seem to

00:28:55me, you know, to be in direct conflict with that. And so I struggle with it, right? You know, because I

00:29:02also understand that that part of the reason why we move forward is because we're driven by this need

00:29:11to achieve and, you know, attain. So even though sometimes our motives are impure, I mean, I think,

00:29:18I mean, this is just a sidebar here, but I think the greatest motivator for human development has been fear.

00:29:25Our survival instincts, the fear of death has actually, in my view, been, you know, the greatest

00:29:32motivator for the advancement of technology, right? We want to live longer. We want to protect ourselves,

00:29:40right? All this kind of crazy stuff out there. So, but yeah, getting back to this whole Islam thing,

00:29:45I think people are a little bit shocked right now because this thing seems to have come out of

00:29:55nowhere, right? You know, you're hearing these stories, you know, and maybe some of you have

00:30:02friends in Europe. I traveled so extensively through Europe in the 90s and 2000s that I have so many

00:30:09friends there and they're in shock what's happening to their culture. There has been this influx, right?

00:30:21You know, it's like, oh, you know, you get this group of people, oh, they're oppressed, right? So we got to

00:30:31open the gates and let all these oppressed people in. Well, the oppressed people they let in were all people

00:30:38that belong to a system who will never challenge that system because they have this fear of God and fear of

00:30:45their leaders, right? So they're there not to integrate with anything in Europe, right? But to

00:30:52literally take over. And here's the crazy thing about it. Here's what people don't seem to grasp.

00:30:59As much as extremism and terrorism is what we see, right? And we see this, what appears to be a war,

00:31:10that's actually the distraction. Because the strategy for Islam to take over the world is what?

00:31:20Reproduction, right? And you can drill down and you'll figure this out. Islam is playing the long

00:31:30game. They're not in a hurry. Like we Americans, like we want it all now. They don't think like that.

00:31:37They know this, that European culture, Western white European culture, American Europe are now

00:31:47reproducing at a level that's below keeping the population even stable. We're shrinking. Elon Musk,

00:31:56a lot of people have warned about this, right? Every woman needs to have whatever it is, 2.3 or 2.5

00:32:03children. We're down to 1.7, I think it is, right? So what do we do? Oh, we got to let more people in,

00:32:10right? We got to keep the factory, all this kind of stuff. Well, so great. Well, how many kids are

00:32:16the Islamic women having? Six, seven, right? Right. And then not only that, where this gets even more

00:32:24dicey in Islam, you can still have concubines. You can have multiple wives, right? So we're back to

00:32:31the Old Testament again with guys like Abraham who are trying to grow his tribe and how do they grow

00:32:37their tribe so they can stand up against larger and more powerful tribes. They have multiple wives and

00:32:44multiple concubines and Abraham's producing kids as fast as he can. And he's hoping they're all boys

00:32:51because he needs them to fight, right? I mean, this is just raw human survival mode right now.

00:32:58You know what I mean? And so people forget this is how the world. Well, Islam hasn't changed.

00:33:03They think the same exact way. So they are going to outpopulate us and they think within a hundred

00:33:10years we will be the minority and they will rule just by sheer population dominance.

00:33:16It is scary. I mean, it's really scary. I, um, so let's talk about the-

00:33:22So should we Christians have more kids?

00:33:25I think it's an open invitation.

00:33:28Should we start a war of population, right?

00:33:31You know, so the Branham cult. The Branham cult does not advertise the Branham cult. There is no

00:33:38outreach programs. There's no obvious recruitment. In fact, I would say that it's quite the opposite.

00:33:45When they advertise, it's to advertise to keep people in, not to bring people in.

00:33:50If you drive down, if you drive down the interstate in areas where there's a heavy

00:33:56message, Branham cult population, they have these signs like, how will you be judged?

00:34:03And things that if you're on the outside, you look at this and you go, oh, well, that's a cult.

00:34:07I'm not going in there. But to the people, they're really scared. Oh my gosh, we're going to be

00:34:11judged if we leave this place. There's no real advertisement to bring people in. It's to

00:34:16constrain because they know over time, as they repopulate, as their families grow, those children

00:34:23become cult members. As they have children, they, all of this, it's spreading literally through

00:34:29childbirth. That's how it has remained stable. And if you look at, I mean, we've exposed countless

00:34:34things. Many people are aware of these things. If you look at how awful it is and understand that

00:34:40nobody should be in it in the first place, yet it still exists and survives. It survives because

00:34:46they're teaching the young children the doctrines. So the young children grow up like this. The same

00:34:51thing is happening in Islamic extremism. And at its core, so let's break that down a bit. I have

00:34:59friends who are Islamic. I don't have any friends who are in Islamic extremism. I do have Islamic friends.

00:35:05Yeah, I do as well.

00:35:06And they have explained to me, whenever I, so I was redneck, naive, I don't know what you want to call

00:35:13me when I left the cult. I kind of lumped them, all Islamic people, in the same bucket.

00:35:19Right.

00:35:19Much like I'm certain the Islamic people do Christians, which is funny if you think about it.

00:35:24And I have a really, really good neighbor who's Islamic. He explained to me, we used to take

00:35:31walks every morning, and he's explaining to me the difference between the core of Islam

00:35:36and the extremist views. And he – I can't remember the names, but he listed all of these

00:35:41different branches of extremism. And he says, in the core, it isn't like this. They believe

00:35:48that Muhammad taught peace. And they – yes, if you read the Koran, there are things that

00:35:53are militant. But much like the Old Testament you have, John, if you read your Old Testament,

00:35:58you're going to find many of the same things. When he first said that, I was like, no.

00:36:02And then I go back and look, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I started to understand it isn't

00:36:09so much about what you see as the very violent personalities. It's the extremists that are different

00:36:15from the core. So once I began to understand that, and then understand that within American

00:36:21Christianity, you have the same exact thing. You have a core base of Christianity, you have

00:36:26core concepts, theology that has evolved for decades to become more humanistic. And then

00:36:34you have these extremists that they want to defy the decades of theology. They want to say,

00:36:40no, we want to be different. And they form their extremist group. And some of them are benign,

00:36:44but some of them go completely nuts. So I began to understand that both sides are really,

00:36:51really equal. And it wasn't until I began my study of the New Apostolic Reformation, I began

00:36:57to realize the dangers of this. Because once those people break away, and they want to defy

00:37:05the core, they want to say our version of our version of Islam is more like Mohammed or our

00:37:11version of Christianity is more like Jesus. Therefore, we must dominate those who don't

00:37:16believe like we do. We need to claim dominion over them and enforce our policies.

00:37:21Right.

00:37:21Once that hit me, I'm like, oh, my gosh, we have Islam right here in America under a different

00:37:27name. And even that, it took me a while to understand that, no, it is still different.

00:37:33But what we have is the very foundations for what became Islamic extremism we're watching

00:37:39happen in real time today in the United States.

00:37:43Yeah. Well, it's sort of what we're doing. We're playing Toto today, meaning that we're

00:37:48pulling the curtain back. Because on the surface, the facade, right, it seems we're talking about

00:37:56two things that aren't even remotely alike. But then, like you're saying, when you pull

00:38:02the curtain back, and you see what's actually underneath, right, the motive, the theology,

00:38:09the worldview, all of this underneath, you go, oh, my God, it's the same thing. That's

00:38:14the shocker. And I think most people haven't had the opportunity to do that. I look back on

00:38:22my life sometimes, and I realize that I think God just does things like he, things I'm not

00:38:29even aware of at the time and how significant they were. But around 2015, 2016, I actually

00:38:37went to work for a technology company in Lawrence, Kansas. I was the only white Christian. Everybody

00:38:46else was Muslim from either Pakistan or Iraq. And it was the most interesting thing. Now,

00:38:55based on my personality and my previous experiences in Africa and all that, I was very

00:39:02adept at cross-cultural dynamics, right? I understood what was going on. And over time,

00:39:09they developed a great relationship with these guys. And there was a trust level to where they

00:39:15were inviting me to their family activities and whatever. But like you, they took me behind the

00:39:21scenes of the Islamic world, right? And I got to see the other side of this. There's one concept I

00:39:30want to throw out real quickly here, because I think it's really important. And I don't even know

00:39:37sometimes if our political figures understand this. But there, I learned it from these guys,

00:39:44because I was in a situation where I would observe the owner of the company who was a convert to

00:39:52Muslim lie to white Americans in his business. And that really bothered me, right? And so I started

00:40:00poking around a little bit. Well, I learned that there is a concept in Islam that I cannot pronounce

00:40:07very well, but it's called taqiyya. T-A-Q-I-Y-Y-A. I think that's how you say it. The theology is,

00:40:17is that lying to a Muslim is a sin. Lying to an infidel is not a sin. The reason this is really important

00:40:27is, is because there are a lot of Muslims, even in America, that will lie to you face to face and

00:40:37believe that their religion gives them permission to do it because you're an infidel. You know,

00:40:44there's, you know, if you've noticed, there's a lot coming about medical, what do you call it,

00:40:49Medicare, Social Security fraud. A lot of this is coming out of these Muslim countries, right?

00:40:56There's a lot going on behind the scenes right now. It's not all out into the public, but the reason

00:41:03is, is they feel like they have a right to do that, right? They don't look at it as, see, we look at it

00:41:09as that's wrong. You broke the law. They don't look at it like that. They look at it as you're an idiot

00:41:15and, and, you know, we have the right to do this and, you know, your technology is, doesn't have,

00:41:23you know, the security protocols and we took advantage of it. We win. God's on our side. It's

00:41:30that whole thing again, right? If I succeed, God's with me. That's the proof. Lying is not an issue.

00:41:37Chinese have the same problem, but that's not because they have a law that says it. They have,

00:41:44they don't even, you know, they have a morality and an ethics that doesn't see it as wrong,

00:41:49right? So there's all these things that, these problems we have when we interact with these

00:41:54cultures where you have to be very, very careful here of what you're hearing because, and not do

00:42:00what Americans do and sort of assume, oh, he's being honest. One of the early Christian apologists,

00:42:06I want to say it was Irenaeus, but it might have been, I'm drawing a blank on the other guy's name.

00:42:12One of the early ones anyway was studying all of these Gnostic groups and one of the groups

00:42:16he declared as heretical and said that they were following Gnosticism, believed that, and he used a

00:42:24different word too. I can't remember the word, but essentially the terminology is lies for the sake

00:42:31of a holy end. They believed it was okay to tell lies for the sake of a holy end. Somewhere in the

00:42:37millions of miles of 10-point font that I have written over the past 10 years, I had a study comparing

00:42:44that group to some of the things that I saw within Branhamism and in some of the branches,

00:42:50the offshoots. When Branham would be home in his hometown, he would tell somewhat more truthful

00:42:57versions of the stories than when he went abroad. And I was trying to determine, is that A, because

00:43:03he thought when he's out away from town, nobody's going to know, or B, was it because the groups of

00:43:09people were different? And the conclusion that I came to, which it's my opinion, there's no way to

00:43:15know what was in the guy's head, why he was lying, but the conclusion I came to was that whenever he

00:43:21was trying to recruit people into the cult, it was okay to lie. Once they got in, he could tell them

00:43:26the truth. And I started studying, I mean, that opened the door to all kinds of research. You can go

00:43:32down rabbit trails, study almost any of the guys that were in the Voice of Healing lineup. And

00:43:37they're all claiming things that you know are not true. These guys are lying. But they're speaking to

00:43:42audiences that during this era, we've talked about it before, they were trying to push the

00:43:48fundamentalist agenda. And they saw anybody who didn't believe Christian fundamentalism as much

00:43:56like you described how an Islamic person would see somebody who's not Islamic. These are heretical

00:44:00people. We're going to tame the beast, so to speak. And it's okay to lie to them if I can get

00:44:06them to come join our cause. I believe that that was the mindset of these people. Matches very much

00:44:12what I saw in Islam. Well, you know, I think we did kind of address this on previous episodes,

00:44:19but it's been my observation, like you, again, primarily in the Pentecostal charismatic stream of

00:44:27things that this whole theology of the man of God model, where God anoints a man, right, and elevates

00:44:37him above everyone else. He has prophetic insight that others don't. And so, therefore, we all default

00:44:45to the spiritual giant amongst us, right? Every time I have seen that dynamic come in play,

00:44:53I have watched that particular person lose their moral and ethical plumb line. It's as though what

00:45:00happens to them is they start believing their press clippings, start believing the adulation.

00:45:08They begin to see themselves as on an elevated plane, right? There's all of you that stick to the

00:45:15rules, and then there's me who makes the rules. And so, what I see this happen over and over again,

00:45:22because the mission, right? It's the same thing at IHOP, right? Again, I'm ADDing here, but if you

00:45:32ever read Tammy Woods, the letter Mike wrote to Tammy Woods about why she should not come forward,

00:45:40right, with the whole statement that God told me that my wife's going to die and you're going to

00:45:47marry me, Mike says in the email, because everybody then won't believe the prophetic history. And that's

00:45:57the most important thing. I mean, if there isn't an insight into the thinking of these guys, right?

00:46:05That is classic to me. I have seen that thinking over and over again. In other words, we have to cover

00:46:12up my manipulation, cover up my lie, cover up all this, because if we don't, all of these people

00:46:22out there aren't going to believe this prophetic history that I also lied about, right? But I'm just

00:46:30saying, you see the thinking? And again, as we said weeks ago, the end justifies the means,

00:46:38right? It's not that there's a moral and ethical plumb line that we all follow. It's my own end

00:46:45justifies the means. I, you know, I'm leading this global revival that's going to have a billion souls.

00:46:53I have to do this, this, and this all because this is the most important thing, right? So lying,

00:46:59manipulating, whatever I have to do to get there, it's all okay. It's all justified. And that's the

00:47:04deception. And I see it over and over again. Um, what happens on the backside is intriguing because

00:47:13I have had some guys sort of hit the ground so hard. It was like a wake up call. Like, oh my God,

00:47:22what happened to me? You know what I mean? It's like, what happened? Like, it's almost like a fog lifts,

00:47:28right? And they'll just go, what was I thinking? Like, how did, how did I fall into this? Right?

00:47:35And they're actually confused as how, you know, they bit the apple. Like they, you know what I mean?

00:47:43How did that happen? Or other guys, they just relentlessly, even while, you know, they've been

00:47:50totally human, they just can't let go. It's almost like if I let go of this, I have no reason to live.

00:47:55It's like their psyche can't even acknowledge the fact that, you know, this is all fabricated

00:48:02because their whole world's going to come crashing down around them and they can't survive without

00:48:07this. And so one's kind of, um, you know, it's kind of wow. And the other one's really pathetic in a

00:48:15way, you know what I mean? It's sad for me, you know, cause I want to see all these guys restored,

00:48:21but it's just like, nah, it is sad and closely tied to that, or I should say somewhat tied to that.

00:48:28One of the, one of the last similarities between Islam and the new NAR that I'll mention within the

00:48:35NAR and many of its apostolic networks leading up to the NAR, whenever the people were being targeted

00:48:44for recruitment, they would always target people who had a need. For instance, the divine healing

00:48:52lines, these faith healing movements, they were targeting the sick and needy. Whenever the cults

00:48:58began to emerge after this, you find the people in poverty, the people who needed help. In a normal

00:49:04Christian church that is in the core, not in the, not into the extreme, same with Islam. In the core of

00:49:10Islam, as my friend was telling me, whenever the needy are being addressed, you give to the needy

00:49:19as, as is declared by both Jesus Christ and Muhammad, you give to the needy, but you're giving in such a

00:49:26way that empowers them, not that makes you empower over them. In other words, you, you help them to

00:49:33help themselves and you, you don't, even if they don't stay in your religion, you're, you're fine that

00:49:38you help them because you're doing the good deed. In the NAR and in Islamic extremism, it's the

00:49:44opposite. They will give you jobs, money, et cetera, as long as you stay in the cult. As long

00:49:50as you stay with them, you can still have this. Once you leave, that's it. You're cut off. Same with

00:49:56friendships. All of your friendships are built around this core. You have to be a part of the

00:50:00unit. If you leave, you're cut off. And why is this? It's because when you leave, much like you

00:50:06described in the situation where Mike is telling her, but what about the prophetic history? The

00:50:13moment somebody leaves the group, everybody gets to question, well, why did they leave? What's wrong

00:50:17with this group? Right. It's the same thing. It's that control of information that's causing this.

00:50:23And you find that control of information both in Islam and in the NAR.

00:50:27Well, it's sort of like the carrot and the horse, right? I mean, in the IHOP world,

00:50:35the prophetic history is the carrot. That's what's keeping everyone there, right? You have,

00:50:41well, and it was like that at Kansas City. So there's two iterations of it for people that may

00:50:45just be tuning in. There was an iteration called Kansas City Fellowship in the 1980s

00:50:52that morphed into the 90s and it became

00:50:56Metro Christian Fellowship. And then Mike left and then reinvented himself in the IHOP world.

00:51:06But this prophetic history has always been the carrot. It's been, in a weird way, it's also been

00:51:13the threat. To your point, well, if you leave, you're not going to participate in this incredible

00:51:23moment, right? It's like, you know, you're walking away from your destiny. You're walking away from

00:51:29your calling. You're walking away from your prosperity. It's like this threat. You're going

00:51:34to be left behind, you know, like the movies, the left behind movies, right? It's like, you're going

00:51:39to be left behind. You're not going to get raptured with the rest of us because you left, right? And so

00:51:46there's this underlying threat as well, right? It's like, you lose, loser.

00:51:53You know what I mean? And so, you know, people, I don't find many people that don't leave these

00:52:03things that don't leave with their tail between their legs, right? It's like, I mean, I hate to

00:52:10say this. There's very few people that are like warriors that leave. Most people are so beat up

00:52:16and so whatever that they leave. They know something's wrong. They're hurting. They leave

00:52:22with their tail between their legs and it takes a good 12 to 24 months or longer to almost decompress,

00:52:30right? To demystify, to rethink everything. And so it's a process. And if you're listening and you're

00:52:39part of the IHOP world, you know, and you're still in the middle of struggling, you know what?

00:52:43You're absolutely normal. Anybody that's left the cult will tell you that sometimes it takes a whole

00:52:48decade, right? For you to actually find yourself again. You know, especially, and this is especially

00:52:55true if you came into it when you're 18, 19, 20 years old, right? Because your whole introduction

00:53:04to adulthood is being pre-formatted, right? You are being programmed where to look, what to see,

00:53:11and how to interpret it, and you don't know anything else, right? And so it's not like you're

00:53:17older and you go, well, I'm going to go back to something, right? When you're, for all the IHOP

00:53:23kids, they're not going back to anything. They don't have a before, right? So they're having to find

00:53:30the authentic, the new authentic on this journey sort of out in the desert, right? Alone. And I think most of us,

00:53:41that have been on this journey will tell you, it can be a very lonely journey, but oh my gosh,

00:53:47where you're going to end up, you're going to find who you really are, who God really is,

00:53:53and he's no longer going to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He's going to be your God.

00:53:59And that's the real object of the exercise. Sometimes the disillusionment, you know, the detachment,

00:54:06you know, the depression, all of that stuff that feels like you're just a whoop puppy is actually

00:54:14really good. That means you're actually on a healing journey. And if you keep at it, you'll come out the

00:54:22other end way ahead, you know, like we have, you know, but it's hard, you know? And so you're fighting

00:54:28these forces, whether it's Islam, you know, the dominionism of Islam, the dominionism of Catholicism,

00:54:36the dominionism of evangelicalism, you know? And that's why I have, you know, I don't know how you

00:54:43are, but I think now at this particular point in my life, I have a significant distrust of anything

00:54:53institutionalized. Anywhere where there's a system with a few people at the top controlling everyone

00:55:01else, I just have an innate distrust because I just haven't seen it work well.

00:55:07Darrell Bock Anytime there's a human in power,

00:55:08there's human problems with their power.

00:55:10Darrell Bock Yes. Right. We are the problem, not them. It's us.

00:55:16We always think it's the other guy that's like, no, it's us. We're the problem, right? And Jesus laid it

00:55:23out pretty clearly. It's like, yeah, that's because you have this nature that's very self-centered.

00:55:30Your default setting isn't love for others, it's love for self. You love yourself. And that's what

00:55:38drives you. And you have got to overcome that. And the only way to overcome that is through the power

00:55:44of my spirit and being aware that's not my way, you know? It's not my way. And what's crazy to me,

00:55:53I mean, again, I'm going to get myself in huge trouble here and we can close with this. But, you know,

00:55:59all of my Bible school training, all of my upbringing in Christianity, the most important thing

00:56:09was all about the transaction of moving people from the debit column to the asset column, meaning

00:56:16out of hell into heaven, right? The most significant event in human history was the crucifixion of Jesus

00:56:23and his dying for our sins, right? And I'm not saying that's not. Just so you understand where

00:56:30I'm going with this. It just intrigues me, though, when I read the Gospels, there's very little that

00:56:36talks about that. Everything Jesus is talking about is how we live. Everything is about how we relate to

00:56:44each other. Everything is about our motive and our love for others and our willingness to sacrifice

00:56:52and our ability to cross culture and do all these things. There's hardly, he hardly ever talks about

00:56:59dying for the sins of others and getting people out of hell into heaven. And yet, that's the major

00:57:04focus, right? That's why we spent all these, you know, missions and everything driving us to go to

00:57:11the pagans so we can get them out of hell into heaven. We can change their status, right? Instead

00:57:17of just loving them. And part of the problem we have now is we have all this resentment and all these

00:57:25indigenous cultures because as missionaries, we went in there and we imposed, you know, it wasn't the

00:57:32imperialism, the dominionism, right? We're going to take over. And we wounded people and we hurt people

00:57:40and we discounted them and we demeaned them. And they're hurt and bitter about it. And now it's

00:57:45coming back at us, right? Because we didn't learn to love first.

00:57:49Darrell Bock Absolutely. I was going to end on the same thing,

00:57:52but from a different direction. When I read the Bibles and you read what the Bible books and you

00:57:57read what Jesus is saying, take the woman at the well, for instance. While everybody else wanted to

00:58:03condemn, to scorn, he wanted to lift up, to empower, and that's how it was. And I picture him

00:58:10in today's world seeing this big mess that we have and seeing the hatred against people of Islam.

00:58:19Jesus would first want to disarm the Islamic extremists. You can't do this. You can't be

00:58:25militant. And then to the others, he would say, do you know who the God of Abraham is that you serve?

00:58:31Darrell Bock And he would not condemn and

00:58:33scorn. So it's a much different world. Like I said, I have good Islamic friends. I don't believe

00:58:41in the system that they're in. It is a system that they're in. But they're of the core. They're not in

00:58:47the extremism, and they have explained to me the differences. And when he started asking me the

00:58:52questions about Christianity, I really had to do a step back and self-examine because what he said was

00:58:59absolutely hurtful to the core and yet true to the core. We have the same exact thing in America.

00:59:05It's just a different name. So much to me, to me, if there's a doorway into the Islamic heart,

00:59:14to the Islamic person's heart, it's to understand that they actually revere Jesus. That's something

00:59:19that most Western Christians don't understand. They do not believe he's the son of God,

00:59:24but they revere his teachings. And there is so much you can find oneness on. And that's an open door

00:59:35to have some deep conversations about life and spiritual worldviews and all that. That's the door.

00:59:44Don't argue with them about the divinity of Jesus, but understand they revere his teachings.

00:59:49Absolutely. And I can tell anybody who's listening because of my conversations,

00:59:53that door works.

00:59:55Yes, it does, doesn't it?

00:59:57Yeah. This has been fun. Thanks for doing this.

00:59:59Well, hopefully we've been enlightening, educating, and inspiring.

01:00:04Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:00:08You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic

01:00:12reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:00:17And for more about Mike Bickle and IHOPKC, you can read Some Say They Blundered,

01:00:22breaking my decades of silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas City Prophets,

01:00:26and the International House of Prayer.

01:00:47Thank you very much for listening.

Islam and the NAR: A Study in Religious Dominion | Bob Scott | Podcast Episode 420

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