- 4 months ago
John and Adam discuss a recent message from Bethel and analyze the language used in both the promotional email and Bill Johnson’s sermon. They identify recurring themes such as “divine identity,” “manifest wisdom,” and “radical obedience,” drawing connections between these phrases and older teachings rooted in Branhamism and other movements. They explain how subtle changes in wording can carry heavy implications, leading audiences toward elitist or cult-like mindsets. Adam notes how the sermon referenced Romans 5, while John highlights how the marketing framed it with additional loaded language not found in the original teaching.
The conversation then turns toward broader concerns: the use of esoteric language resembling mystery cults, comparisons to cultural references like Men in Black, and the theological dangers of DNA-based identity teachings. They expose how concepts of perfectionism, obedience, and carnal-mindedness often serve to control rather than liberate followers. The discussion concludes with warnings about financial motivations, misuse of authority, and the risks when leaders adopt language historically tied to divisive or extremist beliefs.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Bethel email and “divine identity”
02:14 Bill Johnson’s Romans 5 sermon
04:34 Dominionism and reigning in life
05:49 Us versus them identity language
09:03 Manifest wisdom vs. manifold wisdom
13:28 Loaded language and Gnostic roots
16:11 The “Men in Black” effect of false teachers
19:04 “The Dead Can’t Sin” and sinless perfection
23:34 Radical obedience and cult control
25:22 Idols, fear, and manipulation
30:16 Carnal language and cult psychology
39:04 Christian Identity and the DNA of Jesus
46:02 Real-world consequences: Matthew Coleman case
50:08 False gospels mixed with truth
55:14 Deliverance ministries as a business
58:56 Closing thoughts and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation then turns toward broader concerns: the use of esoteric language resembling mystery cults, comparisons to cultural references like Men in Black, and the theological dangers of DNA-based identity teachings. They expose how concepts of perfectionism, obedience, and carnal-mindedness often serve to control rather than liberate followers. The discussion concludes with warnings about financial motivations, misuse of authority, and the risks when leaders adopt language historically tied to divisive or extremist beliefs.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Bethel email and “divine identity”
02:14 Bill Johnson’s Romans 5 sermon
04:34 Dominionism and reigning in life
05:49 Us versus them identity language
09:03 Manifest wisdom vs. manifold wisdom
13:28 Loaded language and Gnostic roots
16:11 The “Men in Black” effect of false teachers
19:04 “The Dead Can’t Sin” and sinless perfection
23:34 Radical obedience and cult control
25:22 Idols, fear, and manipulation
30:16 Carnal language and cult psychology
39:04 Christian Identity and the DNA of Jesus
46:02 Real-world consequences: Matthew Coleman case
50:08 False gospels mixed with truth
55:14 Deliverance ministries as a business
58:56 Closing thoughts and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Adam Short, host of
00:00:47the Grit in the Wild Podcast.
00:00:49Adam, you and our silent researcher keep sending me these crazy things to talk about, usually
00:00:56about Bethel, but sometimes I hop and other guys, and this thing that you sent me today,
00:01:01this letter, I'm looking at it, I read it before the podcast, we started going through it, and
00:01:06I was reading it, and it's odd to me because the language is more modernized, but the themes
00:01:14that are embedded in that, and I'll go through that a little bit, it was a little bit triggering
00:01:19for me because I remember sermons with those same themes, and my first thought as I'm reading
00:01:24it, oh, he's talking about this and that, and that's gospel-based, and then I'm like
00:01:29scratching my head, no, wait a minute, that's not biblical, that's extra biblical, that's
00:01:34outside of biblical.
00:01:35But anyway, the things that you're finding are just fascinating, and I'm glad you sent
00:01:41this to me so we can talk about it.
00:01:43Nice, yeah, I was racking my brain, and I just was coming up empty, what in the world
00:01:47are we going to talk about today, and I just thought, okay, let's go back to the latest
00:01:50Bethel emails, and so I actually remembered a couple weeks ago getting this email, and
00:01:55I still get most of the email updates from Bethel TV and the sermons and this, that, and
00:02:02the other, and I remember when it came out, this was August 10th, and I'm just going to
00:02:08read the subject line of the email, it is, our divine identity in Christ and the manifest
00:02:17wisdom of God, and that really grabbed my attention, the first few words there, our divine
00:02:23identity, I remember when I saw that in my inbox, I'm like, wow, like, that is quite a
00:02:32loaded phrase there, even for Bethel, and I feel like the way that was positioned, first
00:02:39of all, is very much up front and center and out front and center, and, you know, immediately
00:02:45the bells going off in my head are, you know, the manifest sons of God doctrine that we've
00:02:50talked about and that you've talked even more about on your podcast and you've written
00:02:56about, but I wanted to go in and dive in a little bit deeper, I've watched bits and pieces
00:03:02of Bill Johnson's sermon, which the email is in a reference to Bill Johnson's sermon that
00:03:08he did earlier in August, and here's the ironic part, John, you know, if you go look at the
00:03:15YouTube transcript and kind of listen to pieces of the sermon from Bill, specifically around,
00:03:23let's see, minute 28 to about minute 32, give or take, he's actually preaching out of Romans
00:03:325 in the Bible, so, you know, on the one hand, I will give him credit for opening up the Bible
00:03:38and making an attempt to preach out of the Bible, Romans 5, it seems to me that the anchor
00:03:45of his message, at least the part that I've listened to so far, is that he is referencing
00:03:52to, he's referencing Romans 5, 17, which speaks about reigning in life, okay, reigning in
00:04:00life, and of course, yes, that is in the Bible, but the questions that I'm having that are
00:04:09kind of going through my head are, reigning in life, even though Bill specifically said
00:04:14this doesn't mean you're lording over people, you're not like ruling over them like kings,
00:04:19he gives a, you know, a very well rehearsed, I think, explanation for how that's not ruling
00:04:26over people, but this is one of the anchor tenets of dominionism and the seven mountains
00:04:31and how, I've got so many thoughts, I'm trying to get through, like, untangle all this in
00:04:37my head, but the dominionism here, on the one hand, Bill is saying that we are not supposed
00:04:45to reign over people, we're not supposed to lord over people, but in practice and in day-to-day
00:04:52life, I find that the outworkings of dominionism actually are very much, in fact, lording over
00:05:01people and lording over systems, primarily, it's like a systems-based domination, so it's
00:05:07really a lot of cognitive dissonance, honestly, because I'm listening to Bill preaching out
00:05:13of Romans 5, but then I'm like, the voice in my head is like, wait, but practically speaking,
00:05:21this is actually not what's happening.
00:05:23Um, people, people are being churned out of the Bethel machine and they're going out
00:05:30and they're, they're seeking to have dominion and domination over systems, but I want to
00:05:35bring up a bigger point, I'm really curious, you know, you mentioned the trigger, uh, the
00:05:40trigger language that you, you know, you triggered you when you read it, um, why did they name
00:05:47this email, our divine identity, because that is quite a leap.
00:05:53If, if you, if you look at the main theme of the sermon, it's actually not really about
00:05:59that.
00:05:59It doesn't look like that's the main point, but it's like whoever wrote the marketing
00:06:03email for Bethel sort of enhanced the appeal of the, uh, of the message and added to what
00:06:13Bill was saying.
00:06:14I don't know.
00:06:14I'm just theorizing right now.
00:06:16It's almost like they needed to add that language in there to grab people's attention
00:06:19that, that, Hey, you know, divine identity, your divine identity in Christ, but I can't
00:06:25help but to think, what do they really mean by that?
00:06:28Don't they actually mean that we are little gods walking around?
00:06:32I mean, I know we've talked about this before, um, and how the, the whole, you know, this whole
00:06:39movement is predicated upon people walking around just basically Jesus, little Jesuses.
00:06:44I mean, Chris Ballatin's kind of said it himself, ye, or he's the big G God and ye are little
00:06:50G gods walking around.
00:06:51He actually said that out of his mouth.
00:06:53So anyway, that's a, that's a very convoluted mixture of thoughts going through my head,
00:07:01John.
00:07:01So what do you think?
00:07:02I have a big mixture of thoughts going through my head.
00:07:05When I see these things, it's like, I don't know how to explain it.
00:07:08It's like a million explosions go off in different directions.
00:07:11And I have a hard time sometimes choosing which direction that I head down on the podcast.
00:07:16That's why it kind of, I don't know if you remember the old family circus cartoons that
00:07:21were in the newspapers where Billy's going all around to the places and they've got the
00:07:25lines where all he's heading and it's going everywhere.
00:07:29That's, that's kind of what happens in my head when I read these things.
00:07:32And so that's, that's why the podcasts do like they do, but you're, you're correct.
00:07:38The identity focus was specifically the most triggering part for me.
00:07:42There were other parts, but if you understand what is being said with that identity language,
00:07:48Christian identity, we've talked through that history and I won't go too deep with it.
00:07:53Somebody did ask what it was.
00:07:55So at some point I should probably explain it, but in Christian identity, the way it worked
00:08:00was very cult-like it's us versus them.
00:08:03We have the identity.
00:08:05They who are not of us do not have the identity.
00:08:08Even if they're another Christian, they don't.
00:08:11And if you understand what is being said by that verbiage, it creates that us versus them
00:08:15mentality.
00:08:16That alone to me is triggering because you form, whether you do physically or not in your
00:08:22brain, you form this isolationist standpoint.
00:08:25You start considering yourself to be superior to other Christians, even though he's not
00:08:31outright saying it here in the letter.
00:08:33And I don't, I don't think I've ever heard him outright say it in the sermons.
00:08:36Whenever you use this language, it leads people to that conclusion.
00:08:39And then they themselves create isolationist patterns within their brains.
00:08:44And if you study psychology to any limited extent, you understand what that does in the
00:08:49heads, especially in the context of a cult.
00:08:51So the identity language for me was very, it was, it was terrible.
00:08:58I'll just, I'll just say it was terrible.
00:09:00When you combine that with the other identity themes that I saw in this, that manifests wisdom
00:09:07of God, for example.
00:09:09If I understand how that's being used and somebody can correct me if I'm incorrect.
00:09:15There's a passage in, I think it's Ephesians that talks about the manifold wisdom of God.
00:09:21It's not manifest, but it's manifold.
00:09:25However, we've talked before about Bill Johnson and Chris Valton's reverence to William Branham.
00:09:33They, I know that these guys, all of them have studied some of the things Branham said.
00:09:39And Branham would talk about the coming manifestation of God, which led to the ye are little gods with
00:09:46a little g doctrine.
00:09:48And that's something that was dominant in Branhamism.
00:09:52Manifold wisdom.
00:09:53So I'm going to put a shout out to all of, a few of my different podcast series.
00:10:00Manifold wisdom.
00:10:02Number one, the series that I'm doing with Chinno Ross, we're going through the cult of Hobart
00:10:08Freeman, which was a very destructive and deadly cult.
00:10:11And that manifest, manifold wisdom, theology, that was one of his pillars, one of his main doctrinal foundations.
00:10:22He was also out of the Branhamism religion, interestingly also trained by CFNI, at least
00:10:28attending some of the deliverance meetings.
00:10:31Bill Johnson obviously has the trails back to Branhamism, so he understands the manifested
00:10:35sons of God theology.
00:10:36Mike Bickle, the IHOP, KC, all of these apostolic networks, they all have some shape, form, twisting
00:10:45of William Branham's manifest sons of God theology.
00:10:50Combine that with what Steve and I are going through in the converging apostasy.
00:10:55The idea, which emerged long ago, back, most roots that we find go back to Jane Leed, who
00:11:03was a Christian mystic, but they were trying to bring the idea that Sophia, which was the
00:11:11pagan goddess of wisdom, was actually a divine thing that should be honored in Christian circles.
00:11:16So this idea of an esoteric knowledge dominated the movement.
00:11:21That Branhamism continued that theme, you must have the divine wisdom.
00:11:26Me, William Branham, am coming to you, the elect people who are in the identity, to have
00:11:34this divine wisdom, and God has given me the mysteries that have been sealed.
00:11:38Therefore, you are now the keepers of this divine wisdom.
00:11:41Well, if you understand that language, that manifest wisdom of God, it's subtly saying that
00:11:48the information that has been hidden for centuries is now being made manifest within our groups.
00:11:56None of that language you find, that verbiage you don't find in this letter.
00:11:59But if you know the loaded language behind the training that Bill Johnson would have had
00:12:05from this movement, you understand how problematic that language is.
00:12:09And if you understand the gospel, you understand how contradictory it is to the gospel.
00:12:13Oh, my goodness.
00:12:15So, yes, I did not even, it was like in my head subconsciously, I realized manifold and manifest,
00:12:23not the same word.
00:12:24I didn't even pick up on that.
00:12:26That's how subtle it is until you mentioned, oh, yeah, you're right.
00:12:30The Bible doesn't use the word manifest.
00:12:32It's manifold.
00:12:33And actually, it's in Ephesians 3.10, where the manifold wisdom of God is mentioned.
00:12:44And then also 1 Corinthians 1.24.
00:12:48Well, it doesn't use the word manifest, or sorry, manifold.
00:12:52Manifest is not in there.
00:12:53You're right.
00:12:54It's not even in the Bible.
00:12:55And so, what's the difference between manifest and manifold?
00:13:00So, manifold is like multi, you know, many or varied or diverse or multifaceted, many aspects,
00:13:09many components.
00:13:10That's manifold.
00:13:12And I always think, when I hear the word manifold, I always think about the old cars, you know,
00:13:16they had a manifold, you know.
00:13:19And, you know, there were multiple, like, curvatures and layers to the manifold, right, of the engine.
00:13:28But then, if you look at the word manifest, what does that mean?
00:13:31I mean, that's a very popular word in our pop culture now, right?
00:13:34I'm going to manifest something in my life, right?
00:13:36I'm going to somehow precipitate this into being just by thinking positively or, you know,
00:13:42declaring it into the, screaming it into the void or whatever else.
00:13:47To do yoga, I mean, God only knows what you can do these days to manifest something in your life.
00:13:52I'm going to manifest millions of dollars in my life, for example, is probably what, you know,
00:13:58many people try to do, or I'm going to manifest the perfect partner, you know, in my life.
00:14:03So, that word manifest is very, very pertinent, and it's very much used in the vernacular today.
00:14:10So, it's interesting how Bethel is using manifest.
00:14:15I mean, they've been using that word for many years, but to hear about how really that word has roots way back to Branham
00:14:25and then prior, it really is loaded.
00:14:28It's totally loaded, and I think you're right.
00:14:31It's a fruit of a Gnostic belief system where a select group of people have the understanding,
00:14:41the knowledge, and the spiritual, you know, elite understanding, and then by extension of that,
00:14:48we've got to somehow uncover that and make that understandable to the people that are in the us category.
00:14:55So, yeah, I guess back to my original point, like, Bill's preaching out of Romans 5,
00:15:03but the marketing push that Bethel is using in this email to get people to go back to their YouTube channel
00:15:09or come to their Bethel.tv account and sign up for a subscription, which means money,
00:15:14it's the loaded phrasing in there that's actually not in the sermon itself.
00:15:22So, it's like, I just kind of, I'm kind of reeling from that.
00:15:26I'm kind of like, does Bill know what they're doing?
00:15:30I mean, I'm sure he does, but does Bill know what his social media department is doing?
00:15:35Like, they're taking a sermon that's supposed to be from Romans 5,
00:15:39and then they're adding all this crap to the top of it, trying to grab people's subscriptions.
00:15:45I don't know.
00:15:45It's just, yeah, I already know, John.
00:15:49He knows.
00:15:50You're going to tell me he knows.
00:15:52Yeah, I might tell you that.
00:15:53Actually, I'm going to tell you differently because I find it funny.
00:15:56I'm going to give you a movie reference.
00:15:58And for those who don't know, I grew up without a television.
00:16:02So, a large portion of my life, I did not watch television and movies.
00:16:06And Adam here, I have to tell him the pop culture references, which is kind of funny.
00:16:10But I'll use the parallel this time of the Men in Black movie.
00:16:15Have you seen this movie, Men in Black?
00:16:17Yes, I've seen that one, John.
00:16:18Okay.
00:16:19So, we're both wearing black.
00:16:20Today, we are the Men in Black.
00:16:22But there's one difference between me and you.
00:16:24And if you know the movie, you know what it is.
00:16:25Yeah, the difference is you have some white along your shoulders there, and I don't.
00:16:30Yeah, that's not the difference that's mentioned in the movie.
00:16:33But that's another joke for another day.
00:16:36Anyway, in Men in Black, you had these – so, you had the two main characters with the fancy guns.
00:16:42And Will Smith had the – what did he call that thing?
00:16:45That little pea shooter that he had that could take out a city block.
00:16:48It was kind of funny.
00:16:49But they're living in this environment where they alone can see all of these – in their world, it's alien things.
00:16:58In Bill Johnson's world, it's all of these so-called, quote-unquote, spiritual things.
00:17:02And people look at them like this.
00:17:04They look at these guys, these apostles and prophets, like they are the Men in Black.
00:17:08Tell us.
00:17:09Tell us more about this alien world that you see.
00:17:11Tell us about the little pea shooter in your hand that can take out a demon with your divine deliverance mumbo-jumbo, whatever it is.
00:17:20They look at these people like this.
00:17:22So, in my opinion – and it is my opinion, Bill Johnson has his – in my opinion, he knows all of the verbiage and the language.
00:17:30He has – I mean, these preachers have one job, and that's to study the things that they say in their sermons and to prepare these letters, etc.
00:17:37Although, he may have a – some sort of a secretary that writes the letters, who knows.
00:17:42But they have to know this stuff.
00:17:44But they present it in such a way that it's very much entertaining, like the Men in Black movie.
00:17:49The people are looking at these guys as though they can see and feel and hear something that they can't.
00:17:55And tell us more about this.
00:17:56What is it?
00:17:57If you understand the concept of what that is, which ties directly back to what I said earlier,
00:18:03this is the idea of Gnostic framing.
00:18:05This is a secret knowledge, an esoteric knowledge that makes me superior to everyone else.
00:18:11And if you join our group, I can tell you more about this secret knowledge, and you, too, can know the secrets.
00:18:17And people join into this thing thinking that they, too, will suddenly be able to, like Will Smith, see all the aliens that are living in the presence.
00:18:25The sad truth is it's a carrot on the stick because nobody ever sees it.
00:18:29Only the divine leaders that they look up to see it.
00:18:32But just like Gnosticism, that's where it originated from.
00:18:37That's the way it is.
00:18:39In the ancient world, it was called a mystery cult.
00:18:41You had a mystery cult that had a divine mystery.
00:18:44And if you join into the cult, you, too, have the divine mystery.
00:18:47Everyone else around you does not.
00:18:49Yeah, that's an interesting mystery cult.
00:18:51Well, yeah, I think that you're on to a lot of good points there.
00:18:56And then I'll just add this.
00:18:58The other phrase, I don't know if you noticed this in the email, was, or no, it was on the YouTube channel.
00:19:06The title of the sermon, of this sermon that the email refers to, that links to, in YouTube, is, here's the title, word for word quote.
00:19:16The Dead Can't Sin, colon, Bill Johnson's Sermon on Spiritual Maturity, space, Bethel Church.
00:19:23So here are two other themes that are attached here.
00:19:27The Dead Can't Sin, and I mean, I know enough about the Bible to know where they think they got that, being that, you know, relating back to identity in Christ, and you have been, you've died to your sin, right?
00:19:44And your identity in Christ, and you've been identified with him, and then you were raised with Christ.
00:19:51I mean, the Bible teaches that.
00:19:53But here's where I think Bethel and others go wrong, is they take that concept of the dead can't sin, right?
00:20:01Dead people don't sin.
00:20:02I mean, of course, dead people tell no tales, as we know from Captain Jack Sparrow, is another movie reference.
00:20:08Dead people don't tell stories.
00:20:09Dead people don't sin.
00:20:11But I think where they make a leap is they leap from dead people can't sin from the standpoint of your Christian identity, not Christian identity that you're talking about, John.
00:20:21But I'm saying, like, the biblical Christian identity in Christ, right?
00:20:24They leap from that to this belief system that Christians actually can live a sinless life, which is, I think, another heresy, or at least at a minimum a false teaching, right?
00:20:41Because when you go to the book of 1 John, it says,
00:20:47If you say you have no sin, you have deceived yourself, and the truth is not in you.
00:20:52Let us confess our sins to him who is faithful and just to cleanse us and forgive us from all unrighteousness.
00:20:58That's in 1 John.
00:21:00I remember that from Lutheran church growing up.
00:21:03We had to say that over and over and over again.
00:21:05We had to – that was one of the things in the hymn book or the service book, and so it's baked in my head.
00:21:14But anyway, I don't know if this makes sense, but, like, the leap was made from a biblical concept to now Bethel teaching that I think they believe that people can live sinless life.
00:21:27And I think, John, is that another teaching that originates from brandimism or even prior to brandimism, that sinlessness concept?
00:21:40And to clarify what you just said, nothing originated with brandimism.
00:21:44He copied and plagiarized from the works of several others.
00:21:47Right.
00:21:48Crazy, crazy people.
00:21:50There are Jehovah's Witness doctrines in there, and I know where the source, where he got the JW stuff.
00:21:56He got Mormonism, all kinds of things.
00:21:58But there was this idea that – and it wasn't just brandimism.
00:22:02This crept into latter rain, and it began to spread among – even when the AG started to split over latter rain, it even kind of crept into the AG.
00:22:13The idea that God has – God is coming to – they would use this phrase – God is coming to perfect the bride.
00:22:19And they would – there are various Bible passages that they would loosely base it on.
00:22:23But the idea was that eventually you would come to a state where you, as a human, would have no sin.
00:22:30You would be perfect and flawless.
00:22:31That's the point at which you would get – in brandimism, you called it rapturing faith, because he was teaching the rapture.
00:22:37As the rapture theology kind of disseminated among the groups, and then they started to adopt other views, it would change to the rapturing faith would bring on the kingdom.
00:22:49And then it began to transition into the kingdom theology.
00:22:52To get to that point, you had to reach the perfect faith.
00:22:56What's really scary about it is, in the Christian identity circles, it was combined with Joel's army.
00:23:03Once you got to the state of perfection that they would call it, that's whenever you would become a manifested son of God.
00:23:12And then Joel's army would form, and the battle for Armageddon would begin.
00:23:17And you were taking one side in the battle against the forces of evil.
00:23:20So it became very militant, and some groups actually took up arms because of this.
00:23:26It's really scary stuff.
00:23:28Yeah, that is scary.
00:23:29But if you understand the difference between that type of verbiage and theology, it actually ties back to the second most thing that was triggering for me.
00:23:39There was a phrase in there that said something to the effect of, we had a previous speaker who was talking about the overwhelming, what did he call it, radical obedience, I think it was the phrase used.
00:23:54We had another speaker that was talking about radical obedience.
00:23:57Well, if you understand all of the loaded language that goes behind that, it is that perfection doctrine.
00:24:03You must be fully obedient to me.
00:24:06You must bow down to me as your king, supreme leader.
00:24:09Everything that I say, every rule that I give, every doctrine that I utter through my mouth, you must believe this in radical obedience to me as a proxy to God.
00:24:21So they're trying to frame it such that it's radical obedience to God, but then they tell you how that obedience occurs.
00:24:28All of that loaded language that goes behind that, that's the point at which I was reading through this email and I thought, I don't know if I can read any more of this.
00:24:37That's pretty bad stuff.
00:24:39You've seen enough.
00:24:40I've seen enough.
00:24:42And it all goes back to there is a passage in the Bible, and I'm drawing a blank on what book it is.
00:24:50Somebody out there probably knows, but the passage that's talking about food sacrifice to idols.
00:24:55I always go back there because if you understand what Paul is saying, it totally undermines the entire movement itself.
00:25:05They are trying to teach you that you're living in a world where the idols are real, the demons are real.
00:25:11You might accidentally catch a demon.
00:25:14Every corner there's a demon lurking, and you must be radically obedient to me, the supreme leader, so I can protect you from these demons, and I can tell you the mysteries of how to save yourself.
00:25:26And in the passage, talking about sacrificing to idol, eating – I should say that differently.
00:25:33I think I said it incorrectly the first time – about eating food that was sacrificed to idols.
00:25:37He said, basically, you can eat the food as long as it doesn't offend somebody else who's with you, because an idol is nothing.
00:25:46Paul is literally saying that everybody who believes in an idol is believing of something fiction.
00:25:51An idol is nothing.
00:25:52It has no control over you.
00:25:55But what they want to teach you in these movements is that, yes, they do have control over you.
00:26:01And if you're not careful, if you're not totally, radically obedient to the supreme leader and through the leader's proxy to God, then those idols can take power over you and steal your soul from you.
00:26:13Oh, man.
00:26:13It's good stuff you say there.
00:26:15It makes sense because, yeah, I think Paul's point there between, well, people that agree or have in their conscience, they're okay eating food sacrificed to idols versus those that are not.
00:26:29It's kind of like the meat and vegetables, similar kind of, I think, comparison to that.
00:26:36Like, each person has a different conscientious approach to those issues.
00:26:43But that's good.
00:26:44But ultimately, it's really these idols, these are false gods, and they're not real.
00:26:53But, yeah, back to the radical obedience, I'm still so used to this language, even though I've been out of it for 14 years, that I didn't even see that.
00:27:03I didn't even, I mean, I read that from Dan McCollum as the other speaker you were referencing that they put in the email.
00:27:10So, that evening, Pastor Dan McCollum, through compelling stories and testimonies of radical obedience, unpacked the manifest wisdom of God, is another sermon they linked in there.
00:27:23And I appreciate you bringing that up, because radical obedience is like, in your mind, subconsciously, you think, oh, they're talking about radical obedience to God.
00:27:34But, like, if you boil it down, ultimately, there is so much of what you said of, you know, it's channeled, if you will, towards the leadership pyramid.
00:27:45And, yeah, it kind of primes a person's faith, if you want to call it that, to be directed towards that leader and then really set them up to even be more susceptible, vulnerable, and impressionable by what the leader says to do or believe.
00:28:04And so, it's a good point.
00:28:08Like I said, I didn't even, the two phrases I saw were the manifest wisdom of God and the divine identity.
00:28:15I just passed over the radical obedience, because I'm so used to hearing that.
00:28:20So, it just shows how the language of these movements can, literally for decades, it can just be so baked in your brain, it just takes so long to get it washed out.
00:28:31Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
00:28:34Or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:28:44You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:28:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
00:29:01with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:29:06You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:29:12If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:29:19And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:29:25On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:29:30I have seen some of these doctrines crept into the mainstream.
00:29:34Some of the mainstream churches that I've attended, they'll say phrases that were loaded language in the cult,
00:29:41and I know that they don't mean the same thing.
00:29:43I know that.
00:29:44But if you follow the implications of what they're saying out to their logical conclusion,
00:29:49it will end up where the cult is.
00:29:53In other words, they're not there yet.
00:29:54They're not destructive.
00:29:55But they're using the same theology, the same doctrines that came out of the movement.
00:30:00And eventually, somebody who is a nut job, who learns the doctrines and says,
00:30:06oh, well, if what you're saying is correct, this next thing,
00:30:09and they'll eventually take the group to the cult level, unless they're stopped.
00:30:13That is really scary to me.
00:30:17I'm going to say something that's a little personal, but it is the way that I think.
00:30:23When I listened to part of the sermon that Bill Johnson was speaking,
00:30:27there was a, I can't remember where it was, but he starts talking about being carnal.
00:30:32And any time for any sermon in any church that I attend,
00:30:37the moment that they use that word carnal,
00:30:40that's when I either get up and walk out or I tune it out.
00:30:43Because almost every time, every single person that I have ever heard in every church
00:30:48that I have ever listened to a speaker, they take the cult view on the carnal mind.
00:30:54And they try to tell you that – I had one church that I was in,
00:31:00the preacher was actually calling out his children and said they're little demons,
00:31:04God created them as horrific, and I have to let God save them,
00:31:08or otherwise they'll turn out evil.
00:31:10Like, they're inherently evil.
00:31:12That's horrible.
00:31:13And they're doing this – this is a mainstream church.
00:31:15This is not a cult church.
00:31:17They're doing this in front of the entire congregation.
00:31:19So horrible.
00:31:20So the children are being raised like this.
00:31:23Oh, my gosh.
00:31:24Oh, my – I was a little angered.
00:31:26Yeah, I would be, too.
00:31:27He was using that word carnal just like the cults did.
00:31:31And what they're doing – interestingly, in that same church,
00:31:36that doctrine flowed through everything.
00:31:38So one of the Sunday school – or one of the men's studies that I went to,
00:31:43they were talking about how anger is a carnal-minded thing,
00:31:49and if you get angry, you are sinning.
00:31:52And I'm sitting there listening to this guy, and I thought,
00:31:55no, maybe I didn't hear that right.
00:31:57Then he goes off into this rant against anger,
00:32:00and that's one of the devices used by the cults.
00:32:03If they can find anything that is part of your human DNA that you cannot control
00:32:09and then claim that the thing that you can't control is sin,
00:32:13then they themselves take the control over you because you start to feel inferior.
00:32:18That's how it works.
00:32:19That's one of the tricks of the trade of cults.
00:32:21Well, anger is a human emotion.
00:32:23You're going to get angry.
00:32:24I don't care who you are.
00:32:25You won't get angry.
00:32:27And I actually, in the group, I embarrassed myself, and I said,
00:32:31but Paul said, in your anger, do not sin.
00:32:34And I got a good scolding afterwards.
00:32:37This is, again, in a mainstream church, but after the meet, don't do that, John.
00:32:41Don't talk about what Paul said in my – whatever he said, I can't remember.
00:32:45But all this to say, there was that phrase where he starts talking about carnal-minded
00:32:52is actually acting human, and he's giving you the suggestion that humanity is inherently evil,
00:33:00which is one of the cult framework – basically, it's the foundation that everything is laid on.
00:33:05It all goes back, again, to Christian identity.
00:33:08Branham's version of the original sin was not the Christian version of the original sin.
00:33:13It was this – well, in Branham's view, it was basically sex between Eve and the serpent,
00:33:20but it was the idea that one of the bloodlines was inherently evil.
00:33:26One of the bloodlines was actually the product of Satan – he said the serpent was Satan –
00:33:31mating with Eve to produce Cain.
00:33:33So these people have a carnal mind there to begin with.
00:33:38They're ruined.
00:33:39Like the pastor said, his children, they're born this way, and therefore, God has to change them.
00:33:46Instead of – you know, if you read Genesis, God says, and it is good when he creates everything.
00:33:52So instead of saying that what God created is good, these cults try to say what God created is bad,
00:33:59but we have the secret knowledge, and you have to be radically obedient in order to get that secret knowledge.
00:34:06Yeah, man.
00:34:08Yeah, the carnal – first of all, carnal is an older English translation of the Greek word sarx.
00:34:18And I'm rusty on my Greek.
00:34:20I took it in college.
00:34:21I have an equivalent of a minor in Koine Greek, but I've forgotten probably 98% of it.
00:34:27But I remember sarx, and like in the King James version of the Bible, you had a lot of translations to carnal, right?
00:34:38Because there's actually a Latin root to the word carnal related to meat.
00:34:45It's literally flesh.
00:34:47Anyway, we don't use that word in our language, in our English these days.
00:34:51Like, I mean, when's the last time you were talking to somebody at the grocery store,
00:34:55and you said, well, you're acting really carnal.
00:34:57I mean, we don't talk that way.
00:35:00And – but here's something I want to point out about this that's very ironic.
00:35:06To believe this, Jesus died and raised from the dead,
00:35:10but not to believe this is to voluntarily embrace the carnal Christian lifestyle
00:35:18because I'm living from an inferior reality.
00:35:22I don't know if I'm forgiven.
00:35:24I just don't feel forgiven.
00:35:25I find it ironic that here Bill is talking about the quote-unquote carnal Christian lifestyle,
00:35:32but yet on his watch, under his leadership, he has actively protected sexual predators, i.e. Bob Hartley.
00:35:43So don't get on your pedestal and your podium and your pulpit
00:35:48and preach down to very well-intentioned believers who trust you.
00:35:55Don't preach to them about your carnal Christian lifestyle when you're protecting a sexual predator.
00:36:00I'm sorry. That just does not track.
00:36:03It's unacceptable. It's irresponsible, and it's possibly criminal.
00:36:09And I am totally offended by that.
00:36:12I'll just say it up front.
00:36:15Like, that completely offends me.
00:36:18And let me also speak to and respond to what you said, John, about the anger piece.
00:36:24Nowadays, in the charismatic circles, it's offense.
00:36:28It's like the unpardonable sin is if you're offended.
00:36:35So you'll hear these leaders come out anytime there's public calls for accountability.
00:36:41You'll hear a couple things.
00:36:42You'll hear, one, all of these people on social media that are bickering and slandering and gossiping,
00:36:49they're partnering with the accuser of the brethren, and they're offended.
00:36:53So that is sort of a similar device that you're talking about with the anger piece, right?
00:37:02Because it's entirely human for a person to watch injustice happen,
00:37:10for people to watch church leaders turn a blind eye to abuse victims
00:37:17and allow predators and perpetrators to roam freely in their congregations.
00:37:24It is entirely human for a person to be angry, offended, upset, and to say something about that.
00:37:31That is 100% human.
00:37:34But the device they use, the method they use to try to quell that and squelch that is
00:37:41where you're offended and you're partnering with the accuser of the brethren.
00:37:45But all the while, they're up there preaching about the carnal Christian lifestyle.
00:37:50They're the ones, if anybody's carnal, they're the ones that are carnal
00:37:53because they're allowing predators to roam and abuse women and children and men,
00:37:58but mainly women and children.
00:38:00And so, you know, people like Bill can preach that all he wants,
00:38:05but the fact of the matter is it is a miscarriage of justice, it is negligence,
00:38:10it is recklessness, and he is not practicing what he preaches.
00:38:13Even if what he preaches is false, which I think that most of it is, a lot of it is,
00:38:19he's not practicing what he even preaches.
00:38:22So those are my problems with that segment of the sermon.
00:38:26So I have a much deeper problem than this.
00:38:29It always surprises me when these preachers do this.
00:38:32The entire audience has no idea what is actually being said.
00:38:36The preacher has to know, otherwise he wouldn't be saying it.
00:38:40And even people who are critiquing him, they'll hone in on the things that are wrong
00:38:47and double standards like you just did, but they still totally miss it.
00:38:52There is something that is said in this carnal statement that he's making,
00:38:56that if you know where it came from, it unravels the whole thing.
00:39:01You begin to look.
00:39:02So I said Branham, in Branhamism, it was Christian identity.
00:39:06Branham's working for the second in command of the guy who created the second Ku Klux Klan in 1915.
00:39:14White supremacy, evil, evil stuff.
00:39:17And it begins to mix with Christian identity, which is hatred of people with black skin,
00:39:22from Jews to blacks, etc.
00:39:24It all comes back down to the original sin.
00:39:27They have a different view on what is the original sin.
00:39:31So let's explain Christian identity.
00:39:33I've been asked to do this.
00:39:35Christian identity believed that there was a race of people that predated Adam,
00:39:42and they were mud people.
00:39:45Just like the sci-fi movies, they literally believed in mud people.
00:39:48And they believed that Satan came down in the form of the serpent, injected his DNA into Eve to produce Cain.
00:39:57And so you had two bloodlines, just like Thor and Loki.
00:40:01You had the good guys and the bad guys.
00:40:03Cain was mating with the mud people and produced this.
00:40:06That's how the black skin emerged.
00:40:08And when the flood came, it wiped all this away.
00:40:11They believed the reason for the flood is to wipe away this evil race.
00:40:15However, they believed that through Ham came this bloodline, through maybe one of Ham's wives, etc.
00:40:23So this bloodline continues.
00:40:25This DNA continues.
00:40:27And if you are of the good DNA, you are the one who God sends the leaders to give you the secret mysteries.
00:40:33If you are of the bad DNA, towards the non-radicalized, non-military version of Christian identity,
00:40:45they believed that those people could be saved, but they could not be God's chosen.
00:40:50So you had two levels of Christian.
00:40:52You had the ones with the secret knowledge, the ones with the DNA that wasn't the good people,
00:40:58but God saved, God loved the world, etc.
00:41:01So in the statement where Bill is talking about the carnally-minded.
00:41:07Carnal believer is one who lives beneath what God intended, born again, going to heaven,
00:41:14but they live from their senses, from their opinions, from everything separate from what Jesus has done.
00:41:21So it's like having a little Jesus flavor on your life, a seasoning of Jesus,
00:41:28but it's not the heart and soul of what you live for.
00:41:30The part where he's talking about they live beneath what God intended.
00:41:37Let that sink in, what he's saying.
00:41:39They live beneath what God intended.
00:41:41If you understand Christian identity, that's the exact verbiage that would have been used in Christian identity.
00:41:46And just like Branhamism, that did not take up the arms and go violently protest and shoot people, etc.,
00:41:56he says they live from their senses, their opinions, but they're separate from everything Jesus has done.
00:42:03He goes on, not much later in this, he goes on to say that some believers have the DNA of Jesus himself.
00:42:11That is Christian Identity 101.
00:42:14That is the essence of Christian identity.
00:42:17The good guys have Jesus' DNA.
00:42:19The bad guys, yes, they might be saved, but they don't have what we have, brothers and sisters.
00:42:25They don't have Jesus' DNA.
00:42:27They're a subhuman race of people.
00:42:29That, he's not coming out and saying subhuman race, but the word DNA, if you understand its implications,
00:42:37he in effect is saying that there is a subhuman race of people.
00:42:41Dude, that's mind-blowing.
00:42:42I'm looking at the transcript exactly 10 minutes in, and you're right.
00:42:48Here it is.
00:42:49You have the DNA of the Lord Jesus himself, the resurrected one, in you.
00:42:57You are qualified to live like Jesus in absolute power and absolute humility.
00:43:05Well, there it is in black and white, and so that was something that I had not heard before about the DNA piece.
00:43:13That's good to know that that's one of the indicators and sort of trigger words for Christian identity.
00:43:21That's crazy that, like, it literally goes down to, like, a genetic.
00:43:25It's actually a genetic-based, I guess, classification, right?
00:43:31Because you're going back to, you mentioned the mud people and the way they mixed in and then on down the line.
00:43:37That makes so much sense to me, though, like, and I think, too, like, even broader than the genetic piece is, like, this is back to the divinity, the deity of people, isn't it?
00:43:53Because if what Bill is saying is true, then he actually is quite literally teaching that we are deity, isn't he?
00:44:04I mean, how can we have the DNA of the Lord Jesus himself and not be deity?
00:44:11I think that's a real important point that we all need to pause on and really think about really closely and really think about what is Bill teaching here?
00:44:22I think in my past life, I would have heard that and thought, yeah, of course.
00:44:27He's not teaching that we're deity.
00:44:29He's just teaching that we're, you know, we're born-again believers, the Holy Spirit lives in us, and we have the capability of walking in the same kind of power that Jesus did because the Holy Spirit lives in it.
00:44:43But it's like you said, like, that's a very superficial interpretation.
00:44:49Deeper down, you see the very direct theme of the deity of people.
00:44:56That's pretty mind-blowing.
00:44:58Major red flag, like, flagged really big waving in our face here about numbers of things, not the least of which is deity of people.
00:45:09It is problematic.
00:45:10I don't very often talk about people who are still living, as you know from – it's William Branham, historical research.
00:45:18And the problem is this.
00:45:20I'm not saying that Bill is a racist.
00:45:22I'm not saying that he's a member of Christian identity, anything like this.
00:45:25He may not even be aware that what he's saying comes from this Christian identity thing.
00:45:31But he has been trained in that system.
00:45:33And because he's trained in that system, there are people in his audience who may be aware of what he's saying.
00:45:40I'm aware of what he's saying.
00:45:41I know exactly – when I hear these things, I know exactly what it is he's saying and where it came from.
00:45:46There are people who are of ill intent, who believe this stuff, who really believe Christian identity, believe that all blacks and Jews are evil.
00:45:56And they'll hear that, and they'll take it as a charge.
00:45:59And if they're mentally unstable, they may take it to a violent charge.
00:46:03Somebody connected to Bethel, and I don't know if it's true or not.
00:46:06I'm just going to say that it's not.
00:46:08I don't know.
00:46:09But there was a man who – he was a surfer from California.
00:46:15His name was Matthew Taylor Coleman.
00:46:18And he believed really into this DNA theory.
00:46:23He believed that his children were born, I guess, through his wife of the serpent DNA, and this man killed his children.
00:46:31It turned into a big deal.
00:46:33You can read about it in the news.
00:46:35The government linked this to QAnon, which if you understand Q and understand the implications of it,
00:46:42it is really just a very extremist version of Christian identity with a modern flair.
00:46:48Somebody took the identity language and tried to modernize it and created QAnon, apparently.
00:46:55But if you understand the implications of a preacher using that language in his sermons,
00:47:01whether Matthew Coleman got this, whether he learned this in Bethel or not,
00:47:05we can clearly see that Bill is teaching this DNA theory.
00:47:08And Branham – the interesting part about all of this, Jim Jones, who we've talked about,
00:47:16who over 900 people committed mass suicide by drinking cyanide, lace Kool-Aid in Jonestown, Guyana,
00:47:24he, as evil as this man was, parted ways with William Branham when he learned that Branham believed this DNA theory.
00:47:32Wow, that's a big deal.
00:47:34It's a big deal.
00:47:34Branham was exposed in the 50s as being a Christian identity person.
00:47:40Something like – Branham says there were 300 ministers that challenged him.
00:47:43I don't know if that's true or not.
00:47:44But I do know, according to Branham's testimony, Jones' testimony, and some of the others,
00:47:50that in Chicago there was a big event where Branham was basically outed as a Christian identity leader.
00:47:57And a large number of people in the Revivales parted ways with Branham over it.
00:48:02And many of them began to prophesy Branham's death, Jones included.
00:48:07After Branham died, Jones apparently claimed credit for it.
00:48:11He said, I prophesied that.
00:48:13And he doesn't go back and say what it was, but he talks about this event.
00:48:17Branham admitted that this event was over Christian identity.
00:48:20He called it the serpent's seed, but it's the same thing.
00:48:23It is the serpent's DNA theology, the same one that Bill Johnson is using here.
00:48:29So if you understand that a minister who's saying these things, whether he intentionally is doing it or whether he's just doing it because he learned from others, this Christian identity thing,
00:48:40and then understand that there can be people in his congregations like this Matthew Coleman who might go act on it, this is a horrific thing.
00:48:49If you follow that out to its logical conclusions, if we have Jesus' DNA, that means that this other guy who doesn't attend this church, well, that guy doesn't have Jesus' DNA.
00:49:00He's one of the bad guys.
00:49:01We need to conquer the bad guys.
00:49:03We need to take them out.
00:49:05It's so – I don't even know where to put this in my head.
00:49:09Like, it's so bad.
00:49:10It's not bad.
00:49:11Bad's not the word.
00:49:12It's so evil.
00:49:12It's the worst kind of evil, right, for a man to unalive his own children, like, because of a belief system that he adheres to, that he thinks that his children have DNA of the devil.
00:49:29Like, I legitimately do not even know how to process that.
00:49:33But there's your real-life example of how this teaching can, you know, result in literal harm, like the worst kind of harm possible.
00:49:46And, yeah, maybe Bill doesn't know that he's regurgitating very evil belief systems that have been around that Branham espoused.
00:49:56Maybe he, you know, give him the benefit of the doubt, although I've given a lot of benefit of the doubt to Bill over the past several years,
00:50:04and I'm just about fresh out of benefit of the doubt.
00:50:08So, especially after the details around what Jed has talked about publicly around, you know, his dad and Bill
00:50:19and what Bill said to his dad around, you know, the Thailand thing and all that, it's like, I just can't, I don't think there's any more benefit of the doubt left.
00:50:33It's like, Bill, either wake up and smell the coffee or just come out and tell us really what you think.
00:50:41And because that would make it a lot easier for people that are still on the fence.
00:50:45But, yeah, I mean, I think that we've probably identified at least four or five heresies in the sermon.
00:50:57Right there mixed in is Romans 5, and that is how insidious this can be.
00:51:02That is how, I think it's one of the reasons why we are warned so frequently in the Bible.
00:51:08We're warned by Jesus.
00:51:09We're warned by Paul.
00:51:09We were warned by other epistles in the Bible to watch out for false teachers, watch out for sheep, for wolves in sheep's clothing,
00:51:18because it's so easy to, it's so easy for us to be sucked in and be deceived by a, it's not even, it's not even like a,
00:51:29it's a false gospel mixed with the Bible, which really is still the false gospel, right?
00:51:34If you mix anything, Paul said, if any angel preaches anything other than what we preached, then it's anathema, literally like God's wrath.
00:51:44So, I don't know, it's just another five heresies to add to the list for Bethel.
00:51:53Even though, I mean, it's nothing new.
00:51:55I know you've been talking about this for a long time, and I've kind of been talking about it for a while.
00:51:59But, it's just, every time I get an email from Bethel, and it includes this loaded language stuff, it's just, it's just like, there it is, bam, up front and center.
00:52:08They're pushing it again.
00:52:10And, many people are none the wiser, and which is all the more reason that we need to talk about it.
00:52:17Absolutely.
00:52:17And, you know, if you understand the basics, not even the deep things of the Bible, like the deep mysteries they try to teach you, just the basics, and understand that God created the whole heavens and the earth, God loved the world, all of that is declared openly in the Bible.
00:52:34And then you compare it to what these guys are saying, and they have one job, that is to study the Bible, to preach it, and to teach others the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:52:45They're not doing the one job.
00:52:47They're teaching the mysteries instead, and they've lost focus of the original concepts that the Bible tries to lay out.
00:52:53And simple things like this, like this DNA thing, if you read, there's a passage, and I can't remember what book, but Paul says somewhere that he's made of one blood, all nations of men to dwell on the face of the earth.
00:53:07If you understand the difference between that and he's made two DNAs, one good and one bad, you understand that Bill Johnson either hasn't read that book and understand what that book is saying, or he's outwardly teaching against it.
00:53:25It's one or the other.
00:53:26He's either not read it or he's outwardly teaching against it.
00:53:28But more than that, take it all the way back to the roots of William Branham and Gordon Lindsay started teaching right before Branham died how to become a deliverance minister.
00:53:42And everybody was eating it up because these deliverance ministers were making a lot of money, a heck of a lot of money.
00:53:50And so they started – this actually is what evolved into Christ for the Nations Institute.
00:53:54And they were forming an organization.
00:53:56They were trying to create an actual denomination out of it.
00:53:59Branham died, and I think Lindsay just took it and ran with it.
00:54:02But they were creating the concept that what Paul said about the idols not having power over you, about the idols, he says something to the effect, if you understand the verbiage and the language, it means the idols are nothing at all.
00:54:16They're nothing.
00:54:17But what they're doing in the deliverance ministries is they're trying to say, no, these idols actually have a demon associated with it.
00:54:23And we have the power to conquer that demon because we have the mystery.
00:54:28And I'm going to teach you in the seminar that you're going to pay for how to get this mystery.
00:54:33Then you can go through touring all of these apostolic networks, and you can be a famous deliverance minister, and they'll give you all of their tithes and earnings so that they can pay you to become a deliverance minister.
00:54:45It's a job.
00:54:46It's a business.
00:54:46All this is really is a fantasy entertainment system that is structured like a business to make money.
00:54:56And in the end, I have to believe that the guys either have never read the passages that undermine the entire thing that they're doing, or they just simply don't believe it and they teach against it.
00:55:07So I'm glad you shared all of this with me.
00:55:10I had no idea that Bill said any of this.
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