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Putin only understands action: Yatsenyuk urges NATO to match words With real action
FRANCE 24 English
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4 months ago
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00:00
UN Week in New York also about Russia-NATO tensions.
00:03
The Security Council taking up the case of the three Russian MiGs
00:07
that, according to Estonia, stayed in its airspace for 12 minutes last Friday,
00:12
ignoring warnings from Italian jets from NATO's Baltic Air Policing Mission
00:16
before being escorted away towards the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad.
00:20
This incident follows the estimated 20 drones that recently landed inside of Polish territory
00:27
before the Security Council. Some strong words from the EU's head of foreign policy,
00:34
the former Estonian Prime Minister, Kaya Kalas.
00:38
It cannot be that Russia accidentally violates three times in two weeks European airspace.
00:46
And if it was accidentally, it was a mistake, there has been plenty of time for Russian Federation
00:53
to apologize and say, sorry, we made a mistake.
00:56
Instead, we see a pattern. Russia is testing European borders, probing our resolve,
01:03
undermining the security of the whole of Europe.
01:07
Russia will continue to provoke as long as we allow it.
01:11
Yeah, no apology coming from Russia. Instead, this response earlier from the Kremlin.
01:17
Our Ministry of Defense categorically denied these claims.
01:25
Furthermore, our military statement cited objective monitoring capabilities.
01:32
We have never heard the Estonians claim to have data from objective monitoring capabilities.
01:37
Therefore, we consider such claims void, ungrounded, and continuing an unbridled policy of inciting tension
01:46
and provoking a confrontational atmosphere.
01:51
Well, joining us, our guest was Ukrainian Prime Minister after the Maidan revolution of 2014.
01:56
Today, he chairs the Kyiv Security Forum. Arseniy Jatsenyuk, thank you for being with us here.
02:01
My pleasure. Thank you, sir.
02:02
Your reaction to what's happened in Poland and what just happened in Estonia?
02:08
Well, look, nothing new.
02:10
The designated war criminal Putin is just testing the limits.
02:13
And he is pushing the boundaries of NATO and of the free world.
02:17
Let me remind you that more than two dozen of drones have actually made an incursion into Poland
02:24
and three fighter jets did the same in Estonia.
02:29
And you just presented the mouthpiece of President Putin,
02:34
but there was another response from Putin just a few hours ago.
02:38
So he deliberately summoned his National Security Council
02:42
in order to deliver a clear-cut message to the West.
02:47
a new stage of nuclear saber-rattling against the West.
02:52
This is the response of Putin.
02:54
So it is crystal clear that this is a sniff test of Putin
02:58
whether the Western allies are ready to commit to Article 5 obligations.
03:05
And as of now, the response is not as good as everyone expected.
03:12
Yeah, just a reminder of viewers,
03:13
there is a meeting on Tuesday of NATO leaders,
03:16
what's called Article 4, which is, I guess, a wrong...
03:19
It's a consultation.
03:20
Consultation.
03:20
Article 4 is consultation.
03:22
Article 5 is an action.
03:23
It means an attack against one is an attack against all.
03:25
Correct.
03:26
We have Lithuania's defense minister who posted on social media.
03:30
Turkey set an example, an allusion to 2015,
03:32
when there was a Russian fighter jet that ventured for 17 seconds into Turkish airspace
03:39
and was shot down, the pilot was killed.
03:41
Is that what should have been done when there were those drones that were fired upon Poland
03:45
and with these Estonian jets?
03:48
I could hardly imagine what would have occurred during the Cold War
03:53
if, for example, Soviet or Russian jets would violate the airspace of NATO member states.
04:00
No doubt that these fighter jets had to be shot down, period.
04:03
Because Putin understands only the message of action, but not a leap service.
04:09
And as of now, we have plenty of different perfect statements, amazing messages,
04:14
but actions, bold and strong actions are needed.
04:18
And the same happens with Ukraine.
04:19
Very strong resolve and very strong action against Putin's war in Ukraine.
04:24
All right.
04:25
Let's listen to another reaction.
04:26
This is from the Polish prime minister.
04:29
There was not just the overfly of that island off of Estonia.
04:35
There was also, according to Warsaw, the violation of the safety of the Petro-Baltic drilling platform in the Baltic Sea.
04:42
Now, Warsaw notes this was in international waters.
04:45
But listen to the language of Donald Tusk.
04:49
We are ready to make any decision aimed at destroying objects that might pose a threat to us,
04:55
such as Russian fighter jets.
04:59
If they violate, for example, if they fly over our territorial waters.
05:03
I also need to be absolutely certain, and you understand correctly, I won't elaborate on this,
05:09
that all our allies will treat this in exactly the same way as we do.
05:16
All the allies, Arseniy Yatsenyuk?
05:19
Or is there one that's wavering the United States?
05:22
Well, that's a million-dollar question.
05:25
President Trump, he just gave an interview a few hours ago,
05:29
and he said that he stands by the U.S. commitment to support NATO member states,
05:34
and that he's ready to make a bold action.
05:37
But once again, whether it is to come, whether it's true,
05:42
all depends on the U.S. right now.
05:45
And look, Putin is trying to play Trump.
05:49
It's clear.
05:50
But I still believe that Trump will never allow to be humiliated by Putin.
05:55
And Trump is quite unpredictable,
05:57
because a lot of folks, they didn't predict that Trump could hit Iran with a missile attack.
06:02
But it happened.
06:04
So this gamble that Putin launched against the West,
06:08
and this kind of provocations that Putin started to make,
06:12
could have very bad and dreadful implications for Russia.
06:17
But once again, it all depends on our unity.
06:20
Well, that's the thing.
06:20
We had the first instance over Poland,
06:23
and those drones fell over a period of six and a half hours.
06:26
And then this flyover, 12 minutes on Estonian airspace.
06:32
Why weren't those Russian MiGs shot down?
06:35
They had to make it.
06:37
I believe this test...
06:39
They should have shot them down.
06:40
Absolutely.
06:41
Absolutely.
06:42
Once again, look at the history of the Cold War.
06:45
This is under the obligation of every NATO member state.
06:49
That's my humble opinion.
06:50
This is the way I read Article 5.
06:53
And this is the way Putin reads it.
06:55
If he doesn't see any kind of strong response,
06:58
he will move further,
06:59
with another incursion,
07:01
with another act of provocation,
07:03
and even he is considering an option
07:05
to wage the war against the Baltic states.
07:08
And I fully share a take of the European Union High Commissioner
07:11
and all of all our Baltic states' friends
07:15
that, look, they are in danger.
07:18
And it's all due to the fact
07:20
whether Americans are ready to support NATO.
07:26
So there is no other option for the United States
07:30
rather to stand by the NATO
07:32
and to help Europe to deter Russians,
07:36
to help Ukraine to deter Russians.
07:38
Many of our viewers,
07:40
they're too young to remember the Cold War.
07:42
When there is nuclear saber rattling,
07:46
as you say, from Moscow,
07:48
they're scared.
07:49
And this is another weapon
07:51
that Putin has in his war chest.
07:54
So he...
07:55
But is it legitimate to be worried?
07:56
Is it legitimate to be worried
07:58
about nuclear saber rattling?
07:58
Well, it is always legitimate to be worried,
08:00
but it's more legitimate
08:01
to find a remedy
08:03
against these kind of worries.
08:05
That's what FDR Franklin Delano Roosevelt said.
08:09
The main fear is fear itself.
08:12
So it is Putin
08:14
that has to be scared
08:16
of nuclear potential of France,
08:19
of the UK,
08:20
of the United States
08:21
and of entire NATO.
08:23
And it is Putin and autocrats
08:25
that have to realize
08:26
that you guys stay united
08:28
and you can punch
08:30
these kind of dictators
08:33
and aggressors.
08:34
As we did,
08:36
I mean, Ukrainians,
08:37
no one expected
08:38
that Putin,
08:40
who actually crafted
08:42
a blitzkrieg
08:43
to take over Kyiv
08:43
just in three days,
08:45
that he will fail.
08:47
And Ukraine is fighting like hell
08:48
for three and a half years
08:51
against an armed
08:52
to the teeth nuclear state.
08:55
So we are an example.
08:57
So follow the line.
08:58
So what does
09:00
Volodymyr Zelensky,
09:01
the Ukrainian president,
09:03
say to Donald Trump?
09:04
They'll be meeting it
09:05
on the sidelines
09:06
of the UN General Assembly
09:08
this week in New York.
09:09
How does he broach this
09:11
with Trump?
09:13
It seems to me
09:14
that they got along.
09:16
The relations between
09:17
Trump and Zelensky
09:18
are much better
09:18
than Putin expected.
09:20
Let me put it this way.
09:22
Despite that meltdown
09:23
we saw in February
09:24
at the White House.
09:25
Right, right, right.
09:26
So this is the bad part
09:28
of the history.
09:29
We turn this page.
09:31
I believe that
09:32
President Zelensky
09:33
will send a very clear message
09:35
to President Trump.
09:36
The world is watching you,
09:37
Mr. President.
09:38
You have enough strengths.
09:41
You are very strong.
09:42
You are bold.
09:44
But whether you are ready to act,
09:46
that's the way
09:48
the history will judge you.
09:50
And we heavily rely on you,
09:51
Mr. President.
09:52
And we believe
09:54
that you are to defend
09:56
sovereign and independent Ukraine
09:58
with our Western allies.
10:00
Otherwise,
10:01
you will be humiliated
10:02
by dictators.
10:03
And Putin is not the only one.
10:05
It's a cohort.
10:07
It is a huge alliance.
10:08
It is a nexus of new evil
10:09
under the auspice of China.
10:11
So if the US wants to lead the world,
10:15
to lead the free world,
10:17
they have to act.
10:18
And I still believe
10:19
that President Trump will act.
10:21
Is the same Donald Trump
10:23
that was a president once before,
10:26
or is this a different Donald Trump?
10:28
Well, here is the thing.
10:30
You know, Francois,
10:31
during his first time,
10:32
he decided to supply
10:33
a lethal weapon to Ukraine.
10:35
Maybe you remember,
10:36
and your viewers let me recall,
10:39
that he decided to supply Ukraine
10:42
with Javelin anti-tank missiles,
10:45
contrary to his predecessor,
10:46
Barack Obama.
10:48
This time,
10:49
President Trump expected
10:52
to get some kind of concessions
10:53
during this notorious Alaska meeting
10:56
with Putin.
10:57
But he was played out by Putin.
10:59
And now it's time to act
11:01
and for him to make a U-turn
11:03
against Russia.
11:03
But once again,
11:05
let's wait and see.
11:07
That's what usually Trump says.
11:08
Let's see what's going to happen.
11:10
Because there was still this talk
11:11
reported,
11:12
White House aides quoted
11:13
by the Rogers News Agency.
11:15
He still,
11:15
as of late last week,
11:17
was still pondering
11:18
whether or not
11:19
to keep up the same level of support
11:21
for the NATO frontline states.
11:24
Of course,
11:25
this was before the latest incidents.
11:29
Trump changes his mind a lot.
11:31
But an entire political U.S. establishment
11:33
stands by the NATO.
11:35
Look at Republicans and Democrats
11:37
in the House
11:38
and in the Senate
11:39
on the Hill.
11:40
They are very articulate
11:42
and they were very strong
11:43
in their statements
11:44
in supporting Baltic states,
11:46
in supporting
11:46
the eastern flank of NATO,
11:48
and actually in the U.S. commitments
11:50
to execute Article 5.
11:53
So Trump is dependent
11:54
on the views
11:56
of his political establishment
11:57
and on his voters.
12:00
An overwhelming majority
12:02
of Americans
12:03
strongly oppose Russia.
12:05
An overwhelming majority
12:06
of Americans
12:07
believe that Russia
12:08
is actually a threat
12:10
to the U.S. national security.
12:11
So,
12:12
and this plays
12:13
into our hands,
12:14
I mean,
12:14
in terms of
12:15
increasing
12:18
the probability rate
12:19
of the right decision
12:20
of President Trump.
12:21
And the right decision
12:22
is to provide support
12:23
for Ukraine,
12:24
to actually
12:28
be very strong
12:29
in supporting NATO,
12:31
and to present
12:33
one united front
12:34
with the European Union
12:35
in imposing
12:36
secondary sanctions
12:37
and secondary tariffs
12:38
on Russia.
12:39
But once again,
12:40
Putin is closely watching
12:41
whether this
12:42
sleep service
12:43
transfers
12:44
into some kind
12:45
of actions.
12:46
As of now,
12:48
no.
12:49
But there is no way
12:50
to delay the decision.
12:51
Otherwise,
12:52
this is going to be
12:53
a disaster
12:53
for the U.S.
12:54
and for the White House.
12:56
Arseniy Yatsenyuk,
12:56
you talk about
12:57
Vladimir Zelensky
12:59
learning on the fly
13:01
how to better manage
13:02
the relationship with...
13:03
And your president
13:03
is doing well.
13:04
I mean,
13:05
President Macron
13:05
and UK Prime Minister.
13:08
So,
13:08
you guys know
13:09
the playbook.
13:10
But what about
13:11
Zelensky himself?
13:12
How has he changed
13:13
in the time
13:15
that he's been president?
13:16
Is he different?
13:19
My country
13:20
has faced
13:21
a tremendous challenge.
13:23
historic challenges.
13:26
And it seems to me
13:27
that President Zelensky
13:29
has changed a lot.
13:34
He's the different president.
13:35
He's the wartime president.
13:37
I was the first
13:38
wartime prime minister
13:39
and he is actually
13:41
the second
13:42
wartime president.
13:44
But he fully understands
13:45
the historic momentum
13:47
and he fully understands
13:50
that the history
13:51
lies on his shoulders.
13:55
Arseniy Yatsenyuk,
13:56
I want to thank you
13:57
so much for being
13:58
with us here
13:58
on France 24.
13:59
One last question,
14:00
though.
14:00
we talked about Russia
14:02
and Russian meddling.
14:04
Being here in Paris,
14:06
do you feel
14:08
elements of Russian language
14:10
sometimes
14:11
in the people
14:11
you speak with,
14:13
Russian influence,
14:14
how far does it reach?
14:16
You know,
14:17
you have a quite
14:18
strange history
14:20
of relations
14:20
with Russia.
14:22
You know,
14:22
you were
14:23
always
14:25
excited
14:27
by so-called
14:28
Russian culture.
14:30
That's another weapon
14:31
of Russia.
14:32
The Russian culture
14:33
happened in Buccia,
14:34
in Mariupol
14:34
and all over Ukraine
14:36
with the tortures,
14:37
rapes and killing.
14:38
This is the Russian culture.
14:39
Thanks God,
14:40
I haven't had
14:40
Russian language
14:41
in Paris
14:42
in the last 24 hours.
14:45
All right,
14:46
we'll leave it there,
14:47
Arseniy Yatsenyuk.
14:48
I want to thank you
14:49
so much for being
14:50
with us here
14:50
on France 24.
14:51
Thank you, sir.
14:52
Stay with us.
14:53
There's much more to come.
14:54
More news,
14:54
plus today's business
14:55
and in sports.
14:57
Could be a Frenchman
14:58
who wins the Ballon d'Or
14:59
for European Player of the Year.
15:00
We'll tell you all about it.
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