Five Fold or One Fold? The Myth of Restored Apostles and Prophets | Chino Ross | Podcast Episode 418 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Chino discuss the rise of the five-fold ministry teaching and its impact on religious movements, starting with personal experiences and false predictions within Hobart Freeman’s ministry. They explore the inconsistencies in early prophecies, such as the case of Bruce Kinsey, and how failed predictions were later ignored or explained away. Their conversation highlights how unfulfilled expectations often sank like quicksand, disappearing from memory while leaders continued promoting the system.  The discussion broadens to examine the restorationist claim of reviving lost ministry offices, contrasting biblical foundations with modern self-appointed leaders. John and Chino reflect on Freeman’s shifting recognition of figures like Branham, Osborne, and Hagen, eventually denouncing those he once upheld. They also review the legendary “apostle from Denmark” story and its flaws. In closing, they emphasize the historical role of true apostles and prophets in laying the foundation of the early church, contrasting it with today’s claims, which lack biblical and historical grounding.  00:00 Introduction 00:31 The Five-Fold Ministry as a Pyramid Scheme 02:02 Hobart Freeman’s Prophecy Over Bruce Kinsey 06:08 Prophecy Turns Against Bruce 09:34 Cult Prophecies and the Quicksand Effect 13:02 False Prophets and Failed Predictions 15:24 The Rise of Prophecy Culture 19:06 Marketing Slogans Masquerading as Prophecy 19:39 Hobart Freeman’s Five-Fold Teaching 22:09 The Bubble Book and Early Excitement 25:14 Inconsistencies in Freeman’s Prophets 28:11 Hobart Freeman’s Early Examples 30:18 Contradictions with Kenneth Hagin and Kathryn Kuhlman 32:05 Where Are the True Five-Fold Ministers? 41:10 The Apostle from Denmark Story 50:23 The Evolution of Freeman’s Denmark Narrative 53:12 Why the Story Doesn’t Hold Up 55:12 Apostles, Prophets, and Mental Health Issues 58:05 Why Freeman Claimed Teacher Instead of Apostle 1:00:01 One-Fold Ministry Exposed 1:02:00 The False Prophet Visitor 1:02:46 Hobart Freeman’s Book on Body Ministry 1:04:03 The Foundation of Apostles and Prophets 1:05:19 Closing Thoughts and Warnings ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chino Ross,

00:00:47pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Chino D. Ross' YouTube channel.

00:00:52Chino, I'm excited today to talk about the five-fold ministry.

00:00:59It is very much like a pyramid scheme, but the only difference is it's more like a totem

00:01:04pole because there's literally the guy at the top and nobody else.

00:01:08That's usually the way, whenever they start preaching five-fold ministry, that's usually

00:01:12how it turns out.

00:01:13But I'm very excited to talk about this because I have a lot of thoughts having escaped something

00:01:19that called itself five-fold ministry and watched all the problems within, and then any time

00:01:25that phrase is mentioned with any sort of critical thinking, you watch in the comment feeds, they're

00:01:31very quick to point out the passage of scripture that mentions the different offices, but they

00:01:37seldom go to the next level, which is how it plays out in the church today.

00:01:41Is it biblical or is it not?

00:01:43And there's really a lot to discuss there.

00:01:46Yeah, and knowing you and I, we won't get it done in one podcast, but we can sure give

00:01:50it a try, John.

00:01:52So the last time you and I were together, we played a rather extended prophecy that Dr.

00:02:02Freeman gave, Hobart Freeman, over his son-in-law, Bruce Kinsey, married to his middle daughter,

00:02:09Kathy, and that was given, I mean, we went way back in the archives 52 years ago to the

00:02:18summer of 1973 on a message entitled, Ministering by the Spirit, or a tape entitled that, and

00:02:25Hobart called Bruce and Kathy up and prophesied.

00:02:30And what was interesting about that, and I hope people will see how we're going to tie this

00:02:33into our discussion today of the so-called five-fold ministry office gifts, was that

00:02:41Bruce had just gotten saved in the spring of 1973.

00:02:46He was a brand new believer, and there was such a buzz of excitement in the glory barn to

00:02:54have Bruce Kinsey, Kathy's husband, now a part of the church, because prior to that, he had

00:03:00been an opponent of Dr. Freeman.

00:03:03Kathy had married him when he was an unsaved man in 1970, and so a couple of years later,

00:03:11he's converted to Christianity, and just a few months later, I think maybe Hobart's emotions

00:03:19got the best of him, and he all of a sudden thought he had a prophecy.

00:03:24And you can, you have to put yourself back in that mindset and that feeling of all of the

00:03:29excitement of the glory barn in the early 1970s.

00:03:33They had just moved in in the fall of the year before, in October of 1972, and Bruce is

00:03:39saved in the spring of 1973.

00:03:42And so it just seems like God is confirming everything about Dr. Freeman's ministry, because

00:03:49everything is going well and going right for them.

00:03:53And so later in that year, in the summer of 1973, we have this ministering by the Spirit

00:03:59tape that was done, where Hobart gives just a series of prophecies and speaking in tongues

00:04:06and interpretation, word of knowledge, healings, different things like that.

00:04:12One of the things I didn't mention that I'll just mention in passing is toward the end of

00:04:16that, he calls out a Brother Reeser, and he says something like this.

00:04:22If people go and find this message online, they can hear all of it.

00:04:26He said, Brother Reeser, it's your teeth.

00:04:30God wants to heal your teeth.

00:04:33Well, I knew later in the 70s when I joined the movement, I knew who Brother Reeser was.

00:04:40And that was George Reeser, who was a longtime member, along with his wife, Lillian Reeser,

00:04:46of Faith Assembly.

00:04:47And they were actually evangelists or missionaries because they went to Belize in Central America,

00:04:55and that's where they were stationed.

00:04:58And I've had the opportunity to talk to some of their relatives because of these podcasts.

00:05:04So I always loved George and Lillian Reeser.

00:05:07I thought they were good people, and I stayed in touch with them in the early 70s from my

00:05:13little teenager's allowance.

00:05:15I actually sent them money, probably $5 or $10, whatever I could afford, to support their

00:05:21endeavors down in Central America.

00:05:24But I would encourage the Reeser relatives to go listen to that message, and I wonder what

00:05:31happened with their father's teeth.

00:05:33I do know that George Reeser died, unfortunately, a terrible death following Dr. Freeman's teaching.

00:05:40Died right before Hobart did with no medication at all.

00:05:45So he, unfortunately, was another one of the casualties.

00:05:48But anyway, getting back to Bruce, I think Hobart's emotions maybe got the best of him.

00:05:53He gives his prophecy that Bruce Kinsey has the mantle of a prophet upon him and is going

00:05:59to minister to the Jew and to the Gentile out there in the world.

00:06:04Fast forward 11 years to the fall of 1984.

00:06:11And this prophecy doesn't sound so good anymore because now Bruce has himself begun to question

00:06:16things.

00:06:17He's had a flip in mind about Hobart Freeman and his ministry.

00:06:22And now he's actually become an opponent of Dr. Freeman's, so much so that he has challenged

00:06:29Dr. Freeman and Dr. Freeman prophesies against him the next time he has a prophecy.

00:06:36This, and we played this last year, John, in messages from Hobart when we were doing podcasts.

00:06:43But Hobart did a message entitled Believers Before the Burning Bush in his exhortations from

00:06:50Exodus series.

00:06:52And on that tape, he prophesied against Bruce and said, because you've not submitted yourself

00:06:58to God's servant, I'm going to remove your lampstand.

00:07:01And so Bruce got out of the ministry.

00:07:06He's no, you know, no longer followed Dr. Freeman and didn't follow him for, you know,

00:07:11the rest of Bruce's life until he passed away in 2008.

00:07:14So you've got two prophecies.

00:07:17You have one done in 1973 where he's, everyone is excited and Dr. Freeman is fresh and excited.

00:07:25And here goes Bruce into the ministry at some future point as a prophet.

00:07:29And now jump fast forward 11 years later and Bruce is no longer supportive.

00:07:35And so Hobart is prophesying against him.

00:07:37And so I always wondered, and I wonder what faith assembly people thought and think to

00:07:44this day, what'd they do with that first prophecy?

00:07:47Did they just sweep it under the rug?

00:07:50I mean, it was never mentioned again.

00:07:52It was never mentioned from the pulpit.

00:07:54I've often wondered, did people even know that was on that message?

00:08:01And thankfully, John, 52 years later, it's still on that message.

00:08:05It's still available for people to hear today.

00:08:08Did they not know it was there or did they forget it?

00:08:13Had they heard it at one time, but they no longer remember it?

00:08:17My guess would be if anyone knew that prophecy, had heard it and had forgotten it.

00:08:23And someone, me or someone else, reminds them, my guess would be they probably would ascribe

00:08:30everything to a failure on Bruce's part, that that prophecy was a conditional prophecy,

00:08:36that if you stay faithful to Hobart Freeman, then you get to be a prophet.

00:08:41I mean, I can't think of any other way that they would deal with that except to say it's

00:08:47somehow a failure on Bruce's part to become a prophet.

00:08:51But come on, guys, you know, look at the prophets in the Bible.

00:08:55Anyone that ever tried to get out of it, Moses or Jeremiah said, God, I'm just a child.

00:09:03Jonah is probably the most famous story of someone trying to get out of being a prophet.

00:09:08There's no such thing as failure on your part.

00:09:11If you're a prophet in the Old Testament called by God, you're a prophet and he will get you

00:09:17sooner or later and you will do the ministry of the prophet.

00:09:21As the Lord called you to do.

00:09:23So that makes me suspicious of this prophecy that Hobart gave, makes me suspicious of this

00:09:31whole doctrine of fivefold ministry.

00:09:34I remember growing up, one of my greatest fears of all was quicksand.

00:09:40No matter where I went, I was afraid that quicksand was going to get me because if you

00:09:45read a children's book, there was quicksand in it.

00:09:47If you watch one of the old Disney movies, there's quicksand.

00:09:50Everywhere you look in the entertainment industry was quicksand.

00:09:54And then to become an adult and find out that you never, ever see this stuff, it's kind of

00:10:00funny.

00:10:00But what's really odd is the cults are very much like quicksand.

00:10:05When the prophecy is issued, it's sitting there on top and the more that time goes by, the

00:10:11more it sinks down, meaning the more less likely it is to come to pass.

00:10:17But there comes a point in which it completely disappears under the quicksand.

00:10:22It's gone.

00:10:23You don't see it anymore.

00:10:24It's long forgotten.

00:10:25And that's the way it is with the prophecies and the cults.

00:10:27It'll be there until it just sinks, until there's no salvaging it whatsoever.

00:10:32It's just gone.

00:10:33And then the cult mind just forgets about it.

00:10:36Many prophecies were this way.

00:10:38And I'll never forget once I started going through that process of evaluating all of the

00:10:45many things that I believed that was going to happen in my lifetime.

00:10:49William Branham would often throw this phrase out to my parents.

00:10:52This is for your generation.

00:10:54This is not for your children's generation.

00:10:56This is for your generation.

00:10:58Well, if you go back through that list of everything that's supposed to happen to their generation,

00:11:03well, many of the people he was speaking to were like my grandparents' age, not even my

00:11:07parents.

00:11:08And they're all dying off.

00:11:09So everything that he said with a time stamp is pretty well ended.

00:11:13But the prophecies themselves, they're just, you know, it can't be.

00:11:17Some of the things can't be.

00:11:19So the older I get and the more disconnected from this, I realize that the cults themselves

00:11:24were much like the quicksand.

00:11:26But you and I, John, I'm listening to what you're saying.

00:11:28You and I are sticklers for the facts.

00:11:32I mean, if you gave this as a prophecy, I'm 100% okay with that.

00:11:37Now, let's let it stand the test of time.

00:11:40And they just, they don't stand the test of time.

00:11:42And then as you say, somehow they just dissolve into the quicksand.

00:11:48But I'm not good with that.

00:11:49I mean, I'm not good with that at all.

00:11:52I guess that's a convenient way out.

00:11:54That's a great way out if you're a false prophet is just have everyone forget about it.

00:11:59But as you're saying that, I'm thinking there are plenty of prophecies in the Old Testament

00:12:02that didn't come to pass, you know, for hundreds of years later.

00:12:05And that didn't annul the validity of the man or the message Isaiah prophesied before Israel

00:12:14had ever gone into captivity, before the southern kingdom of Judah had ever gone into captivity,

00:12:19that God was going to raise up a servant.

00:12:22And Isaiah even named him.

00:12:24He said his name will be Cyrus.

00:12:26And Cyrus the Persian is the very king that allowed the exiles in Babylon to return at the

00:12:32end of the sixth century BC.

00:12:34That was 200 years before the time.

00:12:36Of course, Bruce's prophecy won't work because you can't live to be 200 years.

00:12:40And Bruce has been dead for a long time.

00:12:43But every one of these guys who comes along and gives any kind of prophecy that has a predictive

00:12:51element to it, and not all prophecy has to have a predictive element, but if it does,

00:12:58you better be careful because your life is in the balances according to the book of Deuteronomy.

00:13:06You know, false prophets.

00:13:07What's interesting about the nature of prophecy under the Old Covenant, we can't do a

00:13:12Old Testament theology study here, but we can at least say this much, is it was a serious,

00:13:18serious institution in Israel.

00:13:22And it was a serious offense to be found to be a false prophet.

00:13:27They did not treat it lightly because they did not treat the true calling of a prophet lightly

00:13:34because no one could call themselves.

00:13:37And the ones who call themselves, by definition, were false prophets.

00:13:42And the ones whom God called were true prophets.

00:13:46And consequently, their word came to pass.

00:13:49But as soon as someone gives something nowadays, whether it's Jehovah's Witnesses predicting the

00:13:56date of the second advent, you know, and that didn't happen.

00:14:00And so when that didn't happen, they have to come back and say, well, what we meant by that

00:14:05was that Christ would enter into the heavenly sanctuary at that moment.

00:14:11So that is what we meant by him coming again.

00:14:14And of course, everybody probably remembers the book, what was it, 88 Reasons for the Rapture

00:14:22in 1988.

00:14:23As soon as you hear anything cute like that, you know it's false.

00:14:26Because why aren't there 87 or 89 reasons for it happening in 88?

00:14:31As soon as I hear 88 reasons for 88, I just check that's false.

00:14:35I know it's false.

00:14:36And we know it's false because Jesus said no one knows.

00:14:40So as soon as someone says, I know, you're going to either choose to believe them or choose

00:14:44to believe Jesus in the New Testament account.

00:14:47And of course, that day came and went.

00:14:51And then it was the next day.

00:14:52I think it was what, like September the 12th or something.

00:14:55And then it was the 13th.

00:14:56And then it was the 14th.

00:14:58And then it has to be, well, what we meant by that was instead of someone standing up

00:15:04and saying, look, I'm going to go ahead and blindfold myself and step in front of the

00:15:09firing squad, because that is the Old Testament penalty for being a false prophet.

00:15:13So I'll start the process, blindfold myself.

00:15:16You guys count to five and then fire away.

00:15:18And I deserve to die for my false prophecies.

00:15:22Yeah, it's a serious offense, John.

00:15:26And how big has prophecy become today?

00:15:31We're 40 years past Hobart's death and prophecy and prophets, false prophets, fivefold ministry,

00:15:41that stuff's not going away and it's not even dying down.

00:15:46I mean, if anything, it is on the rise.

00:15:49You know, click on YouTube and you can see people who claim to be prophets and prophetesses

00:15:56and apostles giving these prophecies.

00:16:00But it's almost it reminds me of what you and I have discussed earlier as far as divine

00:16:06healing goes.

00:16:07It's the message that Hobart taught of healing is for a bum left shin or a sore right shoulder.

00:16:14It's so waters down what we truly see in the Bible of specific healings that happen immediately.

00:16:25They happen that day and they are of incredible illnesses or diseases or even death.

00:16:33And you've been buried like Lazarus for three days.

00:16:37You're just trivializing the things in the Bible.

00:16:40You're making mockery of that by teaching your healing message is somehow biblical.

00:16:46And I can't help but think that the same thing is probably happening with prophets and prophecies today,

00:16:54where people think that if it's a prophet that he's somehow similar to Agabus in the New Testament

00:17:02or to Ezekiel in the Old Testament, and I just think that that, you know, it really devalues

00:17:09what we have in the Bible of true prophets.

00:17:14In my own personal study, I'm reading Ezekiel, and I keep reading where it said,

00:17:21And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel.

00:17:27So what he claimed, and it was true because it's in God's word, is that the word of the Lord came to him.

00:17:37It just came to him.

00:17:38He didn't go to school and learn it.

00:17:40He didn't think it up.

00:17:41He didn't dream it up.

00:17:43It did not have its origin within himself.

00:17:46The word of the Lord came to him.

00:17:49And that word said, prophesy to the nation of Israel and then say these words.

00:17:55And that's what he did.

00:17:57And I think people are today prophesying out of their own heart when it has all this predictive element in it.

00:18:05And I think the verse we closed with last time at the end of Deuteronomy 13 or 18, whichever chapter it was,

00:18:13said you don't have to be afraid of these people because they prophesy out of their own heart.

00:18:20It really becomes more of sorcery or fortune telling than it does prophecy.

00:18:24And if you're a businessman, you understand that it's also more marketing than it is even religion.

00:18:29You mentioned the 88 reasons that the rapture would come in 88.

00:18:33William Branham would always mock the guys that were throwing out these numbers.

00:18:37One of them, I think he said a million more in 1944, 1944 being the date.

00:18:42They were talking about different strategies.

00:18:44Well, that's a catchy phrase, and it makes a good slogan, and it makes good marketing material.

00:18:49So that when you publish books, magazines, literature, newspaper advertisements, if you put that little slogan, that's going to bring in revenue.

00:18:58And that's really what it's about is revenue.

00:19:00And I'm sure the guy got a lot of revenue out of his book for naming it like that.

00:19:04That's how it works.

00:19:05But that's not how, if you read the Bible, that's not how God works.

00:19:08You don't find prophecies that are based off of random numbers that are catchy phrases.

00:19:13But in today's world, the sad part is it has become so common that people think that the catchy phrase that's generated by a marketing engine sounds biblical,

00:19:23because all of these guys are using the word Jesus while they're using these phrases.

00:19:29And it's sad to me to watch it happen.

00:19:31When I was just a teenager, 17 years old, I first heard Dr. Freeman.

00:19:35One of the things that I began hearing immediately, because it was in every sermon, was God is, in his present day,

00:19:49restoring the five-fold ministry offices to the body of Christ.

00:19:54And he would go on these long speeches that, you know, we can't come to maturity.

00:20:00We can't be who God wants us to be without the five-fold ministry offices.

00:20:07And he had this wonderful little, we called it the bubble book.

00:20:11It's this pink book that has these bubbles on it.

00:20:15Charismatic Body Ministry.

00:20:18That is a picture of a young Hobart Freeman.

00:20:23And you can see my copy dates to May the 10th of 1976.

00:20:31One of the earliest things I got from Dr. Freeman was this little book.

00:20:36And what he does is he, you know, he takes you down the path of how this was in the early church,

00:20:43because the early church lost the experience of the Holy Spirit.

00:20:46They lost the ministry gifts.

00:20:49And God is now restoring them today in the 20th century.

00:20:53That would have been in the 1970s.

00:20:55And, you know, this was great news to us.

00:20:58I mean, I knew of deacons and elders and pastors because we had those in our church.

00:21:04I knew the Catholic church had bishops and cardinals and popes.

00:21:08But I had never heard of apostles and prophets.

00:21:12And so it was exciting for everyone to think.

00:21:15And this is the way that it was told to us that it can be just like the book of Acts again.

00:21:22And really, this is the way all of their teachings were, because anything they read in the Bible,

00:21:28you know, from the crossing of the Red Sea to Paul being called up to the third heaven,

00:21:33those weren't a one time event.

00:21:37You know, these events, if you have enough faith and you're in God's end time army,

00:21:43these events can happen regularly to all of us.

00:21:46That's exactly the kind of stuff that was being told to us.

00:21:50So Peter's shadow just falling on someone.

00:21:54You know, we heard Peter's shadow in Acts 5.

00:21:57That's going to happen again.

00:21:58And Paul's anointed cloths in Acts 19.

00:22:01And, you know, being called up and seeing all of these visions.

00:22:04We were told that you can have these things today.

00:22:08And Hobart did base this on a verse in Ephesians chapter 4 and verse 11,

00:22:16where Paul is talking about Christ who descended is also the one who ascended.

00:22:23And when he ascended back to heaven, then he sent, gave ministry gifts to the church.

00:22:30And we read in Ephesians 4, 11, that he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists

00:22:38and some pastors and teachers.

00:22:40And then Paul goes on to say, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

00:22:45for the equipping of the saints, for the perfecting of us until we come into maturity.

00:22:50And so Hobart's argument would be, if you're lacking any of these ministry offices,

00:22:55then there is no way you can ever be the type of Christian God has called you to be.

00:23:00You simply can't be.

00:23:01If all you have is your local church with a pastor who teaches you,

00:23:07then there's no way that you can ever be fully equipped and become fully mature as a child of God.

00:23:14You've got to have these five-fold ministry offices.

00:23:17And so that became a part of the language.

00:23:19That became part of the cult language where we would call,

00:23:25any minister, rather than call him a minister or something we'd normally just say,

00:23:29he's five-fold, five-fold.

00:23:32And so that was cult terminology.

00:23:34And it just lasted for years and years.

00:23:37And it was, as I look back on it, it is such an aberration.

00:23:43And it is so childish and immature.

00:23:45It's just almost cartoonish.

00:23:47Where these church people would say, yeah, we've got a five-fold coming in next week.

00:23:54And, you know, if you're not a part of the cult, you have no idea.

00:23:58You don't have a clue what they mean.

00:24:00But what they mean is, well, Brother Joe, who's been kind of teaching,

00:24:06talking to us, you know, for the last few weeks,

00:24:08next week, we'll have something better because we'll have a five-fold here.

00:24:15In other words, you'll have one of those recognized ministers from a recognized ministry office

00:24:21approved by Faith Assembly, who will be traveling to one of these, you know,

00:24:25distant satellite groups to be our minister.

00:24:29And that was a big deal.

00:24:31Your little local guy is just, he's second class.

00:24:34He's just fill in because he's probably got a day job.

00:24:38And, you know, God forbid, you can't work a day job and be a true minister.

00:24:43You know, and then you say, well, what about Paul?

00:24:45Paul had a day job every day of his life,

00:24:47and he's the greatest Christian minister who ever walked the face of the earth.

00:24:52But according to our theology, if you're five-fold,

00:24:56you've got to spend all your time in prayer and in the word.

00:24:59And what that really meant is listening to Hobart Freeman's tapes.

00:25:02That's what you really had to be spending your time doing.

00:25:05And you didn't have time to have another job.

00:25:07So they were very grateful whenever a five-fold will come along.

00:25:11So, you know, John, in all my early years, I use the same terminology.

00:25:16And I just thought that is really great five-fold ministry.

00:25:20I thought we had a verse for it, Ephesians 4.11.

00:25:23I didn't read two chapters before Ephesians 2.20.

00:25:27Well, I did read it, but I didn't see any inconsistency.

00:25:29Because you just take what you're being told.

00:25:33But, you know, a few years go by,

00:25:35and you're able to think for yourself a little better.

00:25:39And even when I wasn't to the point that I could deal doctrinally

00:25:45or exegetically with that whole concept,

00:25:50there were other ways that I could deal with it.

00:25:53And this is kind of the way that I personally was able to transition.

00:25:57I couldn't always deal doctrinally because I didn't know enough to undo the false doctrine.

00:26:03But what always would stand out to me were inconsistencies,

00:26:08either in teaching or practice.

00:26:10And the inconsistencies were always the things,

00:26:13because I, even though I believed that,

00:26:16which was a false doctrine,

00:26:17I believed a false doctrine.

00:26:19I believed it in the sincerity of my heart.

00:26:22I believed it in the genuineness and the sincerity of my heart.

00:26:26And proof of that was when I developed a little more,

00:26:30and I thought I could recognize there's some kind of inconsistency happening here.

00:26:34I wouldn't just brush that inconsistency off.

00:26:37I was not willing to do that.

00:26:39I was the type of person who would say,

00:26:41well, I still believe in fivefold because that's what I've been taught.

00:26:45But now I got to deal with this inconsistency.

00:26:47And I can't just sweep it under the rug.

00:26:49I've got to figure out what's the answer to this.

00:26:53And so here's the first inconsistency I saw

00:26:56that I would recommend for everyone out there in listening land

00:27:00to at least consider.

00:27:02And that was this.

00:27:05I knew Hobart's tapes well,

00:27:07because I listened to all of them multiple times.

00:27:09And he didn't have that many in 1976,

00:27:12compared to what he had eight years later by 1984.

00:27:15And one thing I noticed is that those earlier prophets and apostles and evangelists

00:27:23and so forth that Hobart had so glowingly referred to and spoke of,

00:27:28he later anathematized all of them.

00:27:32And so that began to present a problem for me,

00:27:36because when I first heard Fivefold Ministry Office,

00:27:39I saw it in the Bible.

00:27:42And then, because I didn't know any apostles or prophets,

00:27:46then when Hobart was able to provide me with the names of current ones who were living,

00:27:53then I thought, well, that settles it then.

00:27:55You know, that totally settles it.

00:27:57The Bible teaches it.

00:27:58We lost it in our church for thousands of years.

00:28:01And now God is restoring the Fivefold Ministry,

00:28:04and proof that he is restoring are these men in these ministry offices now.

00:28:10So, if we could, John, if you could play,

00:28:13this is a very brief clip from a message Hobart did,

00:28:18entitled, Preparation for Restoration.

00:28:23Oh, Roberts is an evangelist.

00:28:25He's not a teacher.

00:28:26Again, none of this is to be taken in the wrong sense.

00:28:30We're trying to make a point, just like I'm not an evangelist, you see.

00:28:33So, that isn't a reflection on me.

00:28:35Oral Roberts is an evangelist.

00:28:36He's not a teacher.

00:28:38T.L. Osborne is an apostle.

00:28:39He's not a teacher.

00:28:42William Branham was a prophet.

00:28:44I'm a teacher.

00:28:45Billy Graham doesn't even have the baptism,

00:28:47but I believe God's reaching him to reach denominational people.

00:28:50He could have it if he wanted,

00:28:51but there's where God is using a situation like it is.

00:28:55So, this is not an isolated example on any of Hobart's early messages.

00:28:59I'll say from, you know, the late 60s into the mid-70s,

00:29:03say 1975, maybe 1976.

00:29:07Hobart, you know, he had not become the charismatic curmudgeon

00:29:13that he did later in his life.

00:29:16So, he was recognizing all of these people.

00:29:19And we heard on that clip, he said,

00:29:20so, Oral Roberts is an evangelist.

00:29:23Well, he went on to scathingly denounce Oral Roberts

00:29:27because he was building a medical complex,

00:29:30which is in contradiction to his healing message.

00:29:33And so, you know, Hobart totally rejected him.

00:29:37Oral Roberts is an evangelist.

00:29:39T.L. Osborne is an apostle.

00:29:42Well, you have some of the craziest stories,

00:29:44and you've already talked about them and put them out there

00:29:47of what T.L. Osborne's ministry was all about.

00:29:49I'd never heard of T.L. Osborne, but Hobart told stories,

00:29:53and they were just stories.

00:29:55You know, that's it.

00:29:55They were just stories.

00:29:57And he would say, if you've got a man who's an apostle,

00:30:01like T.L. Osborne,

00:30:02he can see 50,000 people converted under one message.

00:30:07And he would use T.L. Osborne as the example.

00:30:11And then we also heard in that clip,

00:30:13and he said, and William Branham was a prophet,

00:30:16and that I'm a teacher.

00:30:18And on many, many other tapes,

00:30:21he would call Branham a prophet.

00:30:23On many other tapes,

00:30:24he would call Kenneth Hagin a prophet.

00:30:27Well, Kenneth Hagin ended up teaching

00:30:29that Jesus died spiritually heresy,

00:30:34that he died spiritually.

00:30:36Hobart said that's a heresy.

00:30:39Hagin definitely taught that.

00:30:42So here's the inconsistency.

00:30:44You see that I'm having to process,

00:30:46how is it that Hagin is a prophet?

00:30:49A prophet means an Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel to me.

00:30:52I mean, he's a prophet.

00:30:53How is it Hagin is a prophet,

00:30:55and he's teaching a damnable heresy?

00:30:59That sounds like a false prophet to me,

00:31:02and not a true prophet.

00:31:03And he would say on many other tapes

00:31:05that Catherine Kuhlman was an evangelist,

00:31:08was a female evangelist.

00:31:10And he would say,

00:31:10now you don't have any problem with that,

00:31:12with God calling women into ministry now, do you?

00:31:15He would say that on early tapes.

00:31:17Well, on later tapes,

00:31:18when he got to teaching on 1 Corinthians chapter 14,

00:31:21where he would teach women are not allowed

00:31:23in a speaking capacity

00:31:27with any authority over the church,

00:31:29let your women keep silence in church.

00:31:31So he went on to blast not only these Oral Roberts,

00:31:38Osborne, Branham, and Hagin,

00:31:39but Catherine Kuhlman as well.

00:31:41So there was the first inconsistency I saw.

00:31:44So God has restored to the church,

00:31:46five-fold ministry office.

00:31:47Here are some examples.

00:31:49He gave the examples in glowing terms.

00:31:52He gave the examples,

00:31:53and he went on to anathematize them later.

00:31:56Well, now you've just taken away from me

00:31:59all the ones that I thought

00:32:01were current and were valid today.

00:32:04So, you know, it leaves me scratching my head,

00:32:07and it leaves me wondering,

00:32:08if God is restoring five-fold ministry office,

00:32:11then where are they?

00:32:13Have you ever wondered

00:32:14how the Pentecostal movement started,

00:32:16or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism

00:32:19transitioned through the latter reign,

00:32:22charismatic, and other fringe movements

00:32:24into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:32:27You can learn this and more

00:32:28on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:32:31william-branham.org.

00:32:34On the books page of the website,

00:32:36you can find the compiled research

00:32:38of John Collins, Charles Paisley,

00:32:40Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

00:32:43with links to the paper, audio,

00:32:46and digital versions of each book.

00:32:48You can also find resources and documentation

00:32:50on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:32:54If you want to contribute to the cause,

00:32:57you can support the podcast

00:32:58by clicking the Contribute button at the top.

00:33:01And as always,

00:33:02be sure to like and subscribe

00:33:04to the audio or video version

00:33:05that you're listening to or watching.

00:33:07On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,

00:33:10we want to thank you for your support.

00:33:13Anytime that I mention the five-fold ministry cult,

00:33:16which I will call it that outright,

00:33:18I always mention the five-fold ministry passage

00:33:21as it is interpreted by the five-fold ministry cult

00:33:25with skepticism.

00:33:27And the reason why is because of the strawman arguments

00:33:31used to support the cult version of it

00:33:34and the circular arguments

00:33:36to defend the cult version of it.

00:33:38So anytime that you're talking about the biblical offices

00:33:42and you talk about the prophets, apostles,

00:33:45and compare that to what we have today,

00:33:47the very first thing that you say

00:33:48if you have any sort of conscience of what's going on

00:33:53is you say,

00:33:54well, there's an awful lot of people

00:33:55that claim that they are apostles or prophets

00:33:57and you can clearly tell that they're not.

00:34:00And that begins the discussion.

00:34:02It opens the door.

00:34:03And here's where I kind of walk down the middle.

00:34:07I can't remember what the word I used.

00:34:09Was it skeptic, continuous, cessationist or something?

00:34:12Here's where I try to walk down the middle.

00:34:15Just openly discuss it as it's mentioned in the Bible.

00:34:18There is a passage in Ephesians

00:34:20that talks about the different offices.

00:34:23But when you talk to somebody

00:34:25who is of the five-fold ministry cult,

00:34:28they want to use the word restore

00:34:30because the cult also has a restoration movement,

00:34:35theology mixed in with it.

00:34:37And we could go into five podcasts

00:34:39and discuss why that is.

00:34:41But for now, we'll just say that

00:34:43if you try to add restoration to it,

00:34:46you have to add something that's extra biblical

00:34:48because there is nothing that says

00:34:50that this office will be restored

00:34:52in the so-called last days.

00:34:54And if you use the phrase last days,

00:34:56you also have to do other podcasts

00:34:58to explain why they use the phrase last days

00:35:00because that too.

00:35:02So there are building blocks of loaded language

00:35:04that have to exist prior

00:35:06to the five-fold ministry cult's existence.

00:35:09Without those building blocks,

00:35:11it doesn't exist.

00:35:12But then take it a step further.

00:35:14If you ever get into a discussion,

00:35:16which I have with somebody

00:35:18who's in the five-fold ministry cult,

00:35:21instead of going down that path,

00:35:22when you mention that there is no restoration,

00:35:24what they do is they do the circular argument.

00:35:28Well, there's nowhere in the Bible

00:35:29that said these offices ever end.

00:35:32And that's what you call a straw man argument.

00:35:34Yes, that is correct.

00:35:36But there's also nowhere in history

00:35:39where it has continued.

00:35:40And they will never discuss that part.

00:35:43Where in history do you find this

00:35:45until this weird mess of a movement

00:35:47that exists today

00:35:48that literally exists only because of the cults?

00:35:53You can only see this office being

00:35:55quote-unquote restored because of the cults.

00:35:58And every leader who has appointed himself as such

00:36:01is appointing himself as a self-proclaimed prophet-apostle.

00:36:05And usually they don't even understand

00:36:07what the word prophet or apostle means.

00:36:10And sadly, neither do their congregations.

00:36:12But those circular arguments,

00:36:15those building blocks of false theology,

00:36:17if you take all of that away

00:36:19and just take what the Bible says

00:36:20and read it for the context of the Bible,

00:36:23and this is me taking the sort of the cessationist view into this,

00:36:30not that I'm saying that I am this,

00:36:32but what it is describing is a snapshot in time.

00:36:36There were apostles.

00:36:37There were prophets.

00:36:38There were, if you read the Bible,

00:36:40you can find all of these things.

00:36:41It doesn't say that it is to continue forever,

00:36:44so that's where you get into the continuous debate.

00:36:47But also in history, you don't see that it did continue.

00:36:50That's the point that I'm driving at.

00:36:52It's not that, you know,

00:36:54there's nothing explicitly that says these gifts will end,

00:36:57but there's a long period of time

00:36:59where you don't find five-fold ministry being preached as it is today.

00:37:04What you instead find are people who are preaching

00:37:06about the past apostles, the past prophets, the past offices.

00:37:12And some may be teachers, of course.

00:37:13Many are preachers.

00:37:15But those offices that were for the biblical versions of a prophet

00:37:20and biblical versions of an apostle,

00:37:21they didn't exist until the last day of Mass.

00:37:24Everything you said, John, is so loaded there,

00:37:27and you're so right,

00:37:28and we are so limited in our time today.

00:37:32The idea of restoration, that's Acts 321,

00:37:36until the time of the restitution of all things

00:37:39spoken of by the holy prophets since the world began.

00:37:43They use that verse all the time.

00:37:44And that's clearly, if you read the context,

00:37:46that is a Second Advent millennial context.

00:37:50I won't say any more on that.

00:37:52I would love to go into the doctrinal side of all of this,

00:37:55but that wasn't and isn't my purpose today.

00:38:00The latter reign, the former reign in the latter reign,

00:38:04Joel 2, that is a huge issue,

00:38:06and I hope that we can talk about that.

00:38:09But yes, the whole restoration implies that they disappeared.

00:38:17But that brings me into my next point,

00:38:20because that is a good point.

00:38:22And they have an answer,

00:38:24or they had an answer for that.

00:38:26The fact that where you said,

00:38:31well, in order for them to be restored,

00:38:33they have to have stopped,

00:38:35and we don't have anywhere in the Bible

00:38:36that says they were ever going to stop.

00:38:38And that was part of their argument,

00:38:39that they would say,

00:38:40I think it's 1 Corinthians 12, 28,

00:38:43God has set in the church,

00:38:45first apostles, secondarily prophets,

00:38:47then after that,

00:38:49teachers, works of miracles, and so forth.

00:38:52And they would say God set them in the church,

00:38:54and he never said that he took them out.

00:38:56We'll hopefully come back to that

00:38:57before we're through today.

00:38:59But the next inconsistency that I saw

00:39:02was not only did Hobart

00:39:06anathematize these people

00:39:08that he before had told us

00:39:10are our current examples

00:39:13of apostles and prophets,

00:39:15which we really need to have some.

00:39:17It's one thing to say God's restoring,

00:39:19and we're all saying,

00:39:20amen, amen, God's restoring.

00:39:21And then, but the next thing is,

00:39:23show me one.

00:39:24You know, if God's restoring,

00:39:25show me one.

00:39:26And of course, you said, John,

00:39:28well, there's everybody claiming,

00:39:29and we can tell there are many false,

00:39:30and they would say,

00:39:31well, yeah, there are plenty of false ones,

00:39:33but they're also true.

00:39:34I'm good with that.

00:39:35Show me one.

00:39:36That's what we're wanting to do,

00:39:38is see, is show me one.

00:39:39And now he's anathematized

00:39:41the ones that he had pulled forward

00:39:44as exhibit number one

00:39:46for an apostle and a prophet.

00:39:48So then my mind says,

00:39:50well, okay,

00:39:51but since Faith Assembly

00:39:53and Dr. Freeman's message

00:39:54is the only pure end-time

00:39:57church message group movement word,

00:40:01then that's where I would expect

00:40:03to find the prophets and the apostles.

00:40:06That's the only approved pure end-time word

00:40:10is Hobart's word.

00:40:10So, okay,

00:40:13I can accept the fact

00:40:14that Hagen is false

00:40:16and Branham is false

00:40:17and T.L. Osborne is false,

00:40:19but now you're narrowing

00:40:21your confines even more.

00:40:23Now I need to find one

00:40:24within the midst of Faith Assembly.

00:40:27And so,

00:40:28so here we go

00:40:29with my logical mind

00:40:31looking for consistency

00:40:33or the lack thereof.

00:40:35So we have one, Bruce.

00:40:37Bruce is called to be a prophet.

00:40:39The problem is Bruce was never a prophet.

00:40:41He never went into any ministry office.

00:40:43Bruce never claimed to be one.

00:40:44Just Hobart had prophesied

00:40:46you will be one.

00:40:47Okay,

00:40:48but then fast forward

00:40:49to the fall of 1984

00:40:51and Hobart anathematizes Bruce as well.

00:40:54So there goes one

00:40:56that was from within the midst.

00:40:59And so here,

00:41:01you talk about some circular,

00:41:03obscure reasoning and arguments.

00:41:06Here is a path

00:41:07that Hobart went down

00:41:09that anyone

00:41:11who came from Faith Assembly

00:41:13will remember this

00:41:15because Hobart,

00:41:17because he liked to talk about himself

00:41:19a lot,

00:41:20he talked about this story

00:41:22a lot,

00:41:23and this was the apostle

00:41:25who came from Denmark.

00:41:28The apostle

00:41:29who came from Denmark.

00:41:31So we have a clip

00:41:33that we're going to play

00:41:34and

00:41:35before you play it,

00:41:38maybe I will

00:41:39just kind of outline it

00:41:41so people know

00:41:42where they're headed,

00:41:43John,

00:41:43before they listen to the clip.

00:41:45But it's found

00:41:46on many different messages.

00:41:48But as I was going through

00:41:49trying to find,

00:41:50well, Hobart,

00:41:51where did you give

00:41:52a fuller,

00:41:54more complete account

00:41:55of this story?

00:41:57You can find it

00:41:58on a message

00:41:59entitled

00:42:00Preparation for Manifestation,

00:42:03Part 2.

00:42:05This is in the Roman series.

00:42:06So this is

00:42:07probably in Romans 8

00:42:08when he's going to teach

00:42:09on the manifestation

00:42:10of the sons of God.

00:42:1336 minute,

00:42:1436 second time stamp

00:42:17to 40 minute

00:42:19and 29 second time stamp.

00:42:23And here's what you're going to hear

00:42:24and then we'll listen to it

00:42:26in a minute.

00:42:28Hobart tells a story

00:42:29of an apostle

00:42:31who lived in Denmark

00:42:33who God appeared to

00:42:36in 1959

00:42:39and this man

00:42:41went on a fast.

00:42:44The man went on a fast

00:42:45because,

00:42:46according to Hobart,

00:42:47this man

00:42:49who was an apostle,

00:42:50you've got to remember,

00:42:51an apostle

00:42:51in the church

00:42:53in Denmark,

00:42:54but he was an apostle

00:42:56in the Brethren

00:42:57denomination

00:42:58in the church

00:42:59in Denmark.

00:43:00He came over

00:43:01to the United States

00:43:02in 1959

00:43:04to visit

00:43:05the Brethren Church

00:43:06and was heartbroken

00:43:07over the fact

00:43:09that the Brethren Church

00:43:11in the United States

00:43:12had lost the experience

00:43:13of the baptism

00:43:14of the Holy Spirit

00:43:15in speaking in tongues.

00:43:16Hobart said,

00:43:17oh yeah,

00:43:18they had it in Europe.

00:43:19You know,

00:43:19it never disappeared.

00:43:20It continued

00:43:21from the apostles

00:43:22right on through history.

00:43:24This goes back

00:43:24to your point earlier,

00:43:25John,

00:43:25but it was just

00:43:26in little hidden pockets.

00:43:28You know,

00:43:28it was never known

00:43:29in any broad scale

00:43:31way.

00:43:33The Catholic Church

00:43:34was big.

00:43:35The Protestant Reformation

00:43:36was big,

00:43:36but the Charismatics

00:43:38were always there.

00:43:39They were just hidden,

00:43:40tucked away somewhere.

00:43:41So in the Brethren

00:43:42denomination,

00:43:43Hobart said,

00:43:44in Denmark,

00:43:45they're charismatic,

00:43:46they're spirit-filled

00:43:47over the whole history

00:43:48of their existence.

00:43:51You know,

00:43:51and I'm scratching

00:43:51my head thinking,

00:43:52but I thought

00:43:53we were anti-denominational.

00:43:55So how can you have

00:43:56an apostle

00:43:58in the Brethren denomination?

00:44:00But anyway,

00:44:01you know,

00:44:02you just,

00:44:02you hear all these

00:44:03inconsistencies

00:44:04and you just,

00:44:06they don't make sense,

00:44:07but you just keep

00:44:07listening to the story

00:44:08and you keep

00:44:09buying into the story.

00:44:10So when he went

00:44:11back to Denmark

00:44:12in 1959,

00:44:15the year I was born,

00:44:17he was so grieved

00:44:18over it,

00:44:19he went on a fast.

00:44:20He fasted for

00:44:21four weeks

00:44:23with no food

00:44:25and with no water.

00:44:27And at the end

00:44:28of four weeks,

00:44:28God gave him

00:44:29a vision of a man

00:44:31and said,

00:44:31pray for him.

00:44:32And that's all he said.

00:44:33Here's a man,

00:44:34pray for him.

00:44:35He continued his fast

00:44:37for another

00:44:38three weeks.

00:44:40At the end

00:44:41of 49 days

00:44:43with no food

00:44:45and with no water,

00:44:48God said,

00:44:49the reason

00:44:49that I showed you

00:44:50that man

00:44:51is I'm going

00:44:52to fill him

00:44:53with my Holy Spirit

00:44:54and use him

00:44:55as my end time messenger.

00:44:57The reason

00:44:58most of you

00:44:59are here

00:44:59as far as

00:45:00being related

00:45:01to this body

00:45:01is because

00:45:02somebody got

00:45:02a direct revelation

00:45:03about your pastor.

00:45:05Back in 1959,

00:45:07the only thing

00:45:07I knew about

00:45:08the baptism

00:45:08of the Holy Spirit

00:45:09is it was

00:45:10a doctrine

00:45:10and we taught

00:45:11it every three

00:45:11years in seminary

00:45:12when it came up

00:45:13or in Sunday school

00:45:14it came up,

00:45:14you know.

00:45:16That's all I knew

00:45:16about it.

00:45:17A brother

00:45:17came over here

00:45:18to our seminary

00:45:19where I taught,

00:45:21discovered

00:45:21that the brethren

00:45:23no longer believed

00:45:24in the baptism

00:45:25of the Holy Spirit

00:45:26and the gifts

00:45:26and were even

00:45:27saying tongues

00:45:27were the devil.

00:45:28And he said,

00:45:29practically broke

00:45:30his heart.

00:45:32Happens to be

00:45:32an apostle,

00:45:34never been told,

00:45:35you know,

00:45:35they're not for today,

00:45:36and happens

00:45:37to be an apostle

00:45:38in his church

00:45:39over in Denmark

00:45:39and said

00:45:40he went back

00:45:41and began

00:45:42to fast and pray

00:45:43for the brethren

00:45:44over here in America

00:45:45because he said

00:45:46when they came over

00:45:47they had this experience

00:45:48and they did,

00:45:49you can read

00:45:49their history.

00:45:50They were charismatic

00:45:51when they came

00:45:52and so somewhere

00:45:54they lost the gifts

00:45:55and the apostleship

00:45:56and the anointing

00:45:57and all of that

00:45:58and went back

00:45:58and began to fast

00:45:59and pray.

00:46:00I found out

00:46:01about this later.

00:46:03I learned of it

00:46:03in 66.

00:46:04But this was happening

00:46:05in 59

00:46:05when I not so much

00:46:06as heard of the Holy Spirit.

00:46:07We're talking about

00:46:08direct revelation.

00:46:09He said he fasted

00:46:10and prayed

00:46:10without food and water

00:46:11for four weeks.

00:46:13Four weeks.

00:46:14Supernatural.

00:46:16Now he doesn't fast

00:46:18without water every time

00:46:19but it was a super,

00:46:20that's his concern

00:46:21for the brethren

00:46:21in America.

00:46:22At the end of four weeks

00:46:23he said God gave him

00:46:24a vision of a man

00:46:25and said pray for this man.

00:46:27That's all he said.

00:46:28Well he said,

00:46:28you know,

00:46:29that wasn't enough

00:46:29for him to satisfy him.

00:46:31He's crying out

00:46:31for God to pour

00:46:32his spirit out again

00:46:33upon these men

00:46:34who had it

00:46:34when they came over here

00:46:35and now are resisting it.

00:46:37And he said he fasted,

00:46:39he just kept up his fasts

00:46:40for three more weeks.

00:46:41Forty-nine days.

00:46:42Seven weeks.

00:46:43Without food or water.

00:46:45You couldn't go

00:46:46eight days

00:46:47probably without water.

00:46:48You couldn't

00:46:49but I mean

00:46:49God could enable you.

00:46:51He said on the 49th day

00:46:53in the seventh week

00:46:55all he had was a vision.

00:46:57Pray for this man.

00:46:57He said the Lord

00:46:58spoke again.

00:46:59He said the reason

00:47:00I told you to pray

00:47:01for this man.

00:47:01He said I'm going

00:47:02to raise him up

00:47:02fill him with my spirit

00:47:04and he'll be an instrument

00:47:05in my hand

00:47:06in these last days.

00:47:09Well that's what he told him.

00:47:10So he obeyed the Lord

00:47:11and began to pray

00:47:12and for years

00:47:12prayed for that man

00:47:13he saw in the vision.

00:47:1459 all the way up

00:47:16to 1966

00:47:17and somewhere around 67

00:47:21a brother

00:47:21who was one of my students

00:47:23in the seminary

00:47:24came by

00:47:26and found out

00:47:28we were charismatic

00:47:29and he

00:47:30when he was in the seminary

00:47:31as a student

00:47:31we always knew

00:47:32there was something

00:47:33wrong with him.

00:47:33He had the Holy Ghost.

00:47:34We didn't know

00:47:35what it was then.

00:47:37He was odd

00:47:38you know

00:47:38he was real

00:47:38odd in the sense

00:47:40that he was kind of

00:47:41always caught up

00:47:41in the spirit

00:47:42we thought

00:47:42and wasn't down here

00:47:44where everyone else

00:47:45was living as Christians.

00:47:46He just had faith

00:47:49in the victory

00:47:50and knew the baptism

00:47:52of the Holy Spirit.

00:47:52Well anyway

00:47:53when he came by

00:47:54to visit me

00:47:55and found out

00:47:55we were charismatic

00:47:56and stayed that night

00:47:57and spoke

00:47:57I spoke

00:47:59and he spoke

00:47:59and took a picture

00:48:01and went back

00:48:03to Denmark

00:48:03where he's from

00:48:04also

00:48:05and visited

00:48:06this brother

00:48:06who was doing

00:48:07all this fasting

00:48:08and praying

00:48:08back in 59

00:48:09he said

00:48:11I want to tell you

00:48:11about my experience

00:48:13when I went to America

00:48:14and talked to the seminary

00:48:15and they're non-charismatic

00:48:17and opposing it and all

00:48:18and he started

00:48:19telling him all this

00:48:20and I went back

00:48:21came back here

00:48:21and began to pray

00:48:22and fast

00:48:23and said

00:48:23the Lord gave me

00:48:24the vision of a man

00:48:25and this brother

00:48:26who had been

00:48:28my student

00:48:28said

00:48:30he began to describe

00:48:31this person

00:48:32why he said

00:48:32I know him

00:48:33he's my former teacher

00:48:35in fact he said

00:48:36we were just in his church

00:48:38and they're charismatic now

00:48:39he's already got the baptism

00:48:41he says

00:48:42let me show you

00:48:43if this isn't the man

00:48:44he said

00:48:44he pulled the picture out

00:48:45he took in our house church

00:48:46why he said

00:48:47that's a man

00:48:47that God showed me

00:48:48in 59

00:48:49hallelujah

00:48:50so the congregation

00:48:54John

00:48:55at the glory barn

00:48:55is really excited

00:48:56Hobart says

00:48:57the only reason

00:48:58any of you people

00:48:58are even here

00:48:59is because of

00:49:00what happened

00:49:01years ago

00:49:01when God gave

00:49:02this brother

00:49:03this burden

00:49:04and then gave him

00:49:05this vision

00:49:06and

00:49:07I'm a result of that

00:49:10and you're a result of that

00:49:11and how the connection

00:49:12was made

00:49:13as you hear

00:49:14in the

00:49:14heard in the clip

00:49:15is there was a

00:49:16seminary student

00:49:17of Hobart's

00:49:18at the Brethren Seminary

00:49:20Grace Brethren Seminary

00:49:21who came over

00:49:23and visited

00:49:24Hobart's home church

00:49:26in Claypool

00:49:26in 1966

00:49:28after Hobart

00:49:29had become charismatic

00:49:31he was from Denmark

00:49:33he was in the Brethren Church

00:49:35and

00:49:36once he saw

00:49:38that his former professor

00:49:39had received the Holy Spirit

00:49:41on one of his trips

00:49:42back to Denmark

00:49:43he

00:49:45somehow

00:49:46ran across

00:49:47this

00:49:48Denmark Brethren

00:49:49Apostle

00:49:50was telling him

00:49:52what God

00:49:53was doing

00:49:53in the United States

00:49:55the Apostle

00:49:57was saying

00:49:57well I had a vision

00:49:59or a dream

00:50:00of this man

00:50:01they compare stories

00:50:02the Apostle

00:50:04realizes

00:50:04oh

00:50:05that's the very man

00:50:06I've been praying for

00:50:07and so

00:50:08it all

00:50:09coalesces

00:50:10as this miracle

00:50:11that God

00:50:13had shown a man

00:50:14Hobart Freeman's face

00:50:15in 1959

00:50:16and now

00:50:18this is being fulfilled

00:50:19in Hobart Freeman's life

00:50:21that's a story

00:50:23that's been told

00:50:24and retold

00:50:25and retold

00:50:26there are several

00:50:27problems with that story

00:50:29in Hobart's

00:50:31own

00:50:31little declaration

00:50:33that he

00:50:34of his

00:50:34the outpouring

00:50:35of the Holy Spirit

00:50:36in his church

00:50:37in Claypool

00:50:38where they met

00:50:39under the Claypool

00:50:39water tower

00:50:40in 1966

00:50:42Hobart wrote this

00:50:43a year later

00:50:44he relates

00:50:45that story

00:50:46in here

00:50:47but in

00:50:47this account

00:50:49of it

00:50:49the

00:50:50the man

00:50:51is a

00:50:51pastor

00:50:52he's not

00:50:53an apostle

00:50:54the story

00:50:56began to evolve

00:50:57as Hobart

00:50:58told the story

00:50:59he was no longer

00:51:00a pastor

00:51:02now

00:51:02he is an apostle

00:51:04and as Hobart

00:51:06would continue

00:51:07to tell the story

00:51:08the story

00:51:08just took on

00:51:09a life

00:51:09of its own

00:51:10and

00:51:11when I first

00:51:12heard the story

00:51:13it sounded like

00:51:14you know

00:51:15confirmation

00:51:16of Hobart Freeman's

00:51:17entire ministry

00:51:18that God

00:51:19would use

00:51:20an apostle

00:51:20in Denmark

00:51:21to go on

00:51:23a 49 day

00:51:24no food

00:51:24no water

00:51:25fast

00:51:25just for

00:51:26this one man

00:51:27and then

00:51:28this whole

00:51:29monument

00:51:30of faith

00:51:30ministry

00:51:31that he

00:51:32would build

00:51:32until faith

00:51:33assembly

00:51:34you know

00:51:35let's go

00:51:36in hindsight

00:51:37fell apart

00:51:37and disintegrated

00:51:38you know

00:51:39people

00:51:40you could see

00:51:41why people

00:51:41would hold

00:51:42on to that

00:51:42and believe

00:51:43it

00:51:43because

00:51:43faith

00:51:44assembly

00:51:44in the 70s

00:51:45was growing

00:51:46and vibrant

00:51:47and lively

00:51:47the inconsistencies

00:51:50were still there

00:51:51and you know

00:51:52the one

00:51:52that I always

00:51:53wondered about

00:51:54and thought about

00:51:55during those years

00:51:56is

00:51:56why haven't we

00:51:57ever met

00:51:58this apostle

00:51:58I mean

00:52:00that would

00:52:01have been

00:52:01that would

00:52:01have been

00:52:02the guy

00:52:03was alive

00:52:03back in

00:52:04the 60s

00:52:05at least

00:52:05why didn't

00:52:06he come

00:52:07and see

00:52:08this figure

00:52:08why didn't

00:52:09why don't

00:52:10we have

00:52:10some record

00:52:11I'd like

00:52:12to know

00:52:13the person's

00:52:13name

00:52:14I would

00:52:15like to

00:52:15know

00:52:15everything

00:52:16I can

00:52:17about

00:52:18this apostle

00:52:19the problem

00:52:20is

00:52:21that was

00:52:22never

00:52:22going to

00:52:23happen

00:52:23I know

00:52:26there are

00:52:26people out

00:52:27there probably

00:52:27wondering

00:52:28well what

00:52:28is the

00:52:29story of

00:52:29this man

00:52:30I don't

00:52:30know the

00:52:30story of

00:52:31this man

00:52:31but I

00:52:32just see

00:52:33too many

00:52:33inconsistencies

00:52:34Hobart Freeman's

00:52:35ministry

00:52:36you know

00:52:37fell apart

00:52:38dissolved

00:52:39you know

00:52:40he died

00:52:41sick

00:52:41everybody else

00:52:42died sick

00:52:43so if this

00:52:44had been

00:52:44a valid

00:52:45word

00:52:46I don't

00:52:47think this

00:52:48would have

00:52:48been the

00:52:48result of

00:52:49the ministry

00:52:49there are

00:52:51too many

00:52:52shady

00:52:52things

00:52:53without

00:52:53documentation

00:52:54in the

00:52:55background

00:52:55and I

00:52:56would ask

00:52:57that

00:52:57anyone

00:52:58who

00:52:58continues

00:52:58to follow

00:52:59Dr.

00:53:00Freeman's

00:53:00ministry

00:53:01they need

00:53:02to take

00:53:02seriously

00:53:02this whole

00:53:03story of

00:53:03the apostle

00:53:04in Denmark

00:53:05and you

00:53:05need to

00:53:06find some

00:53:06way to

00:53:06deal with

00:53:07that

00:53:07you

00:53:08mentioned

00:53:08the issue

00:53:09of

00:53:09the guy

00:53:10who was

00:53:11a preacher

00:53:12and then

00:53:12he's supposed

00:53:13to be

00:53:13a teacher

00:53:14one of the

00:53:14other offices

00:53:15this is

00:53:16actually the

00:53:17sole reason

00:53:18why I

00:53:19don't take

00:53:19either side

00:53:20of this

00:53:20argument

00:53:20because

00:53:22if you

00:53:23take a

00:53:23moment to

00:53:24understand

00:53:25the ancient

00:53:25world

00:53:25and the

00:53:26context in

00:53:27which the

00:53:27scripture

00:53:27is written

00:53:28you have

00:53:29a bunch

00:53:29of people

00:53:29who are

00:53:30largely

00:53:30illiterate

00:53:31who if

00:53:32you gave

00:53:33them a

00:53:33Bible

00:53:33they couldn't

00:53:34read it

00:53:34for themselves

00:53:35who came

00:53:36out of

00:53:36pagan

00:53:36backgrounds

00:53:37who had

00:53:39no idea

00:53:39how Christian

00:53:41worship

00:53:41or even

00:53:42ancient

00:53:43Judaism

00:53:44would have

00:53:45been

00:53:45the ceremonies

00:53:46and the

00:53:46structure

00:53:47and the

00:53:47religion

00:53:48would have

00:53:48been

00:53:49structured

00:53:49you had

00:53:50to have

00:53:50somebody

00:53:51who's

00:53:51teaching

00:53:51them

00:53:52and

00:53:53the

00:53:53teacher

00:53:53office

00:53:53is

00:53:54the

00:53:54one

00:53:54that

00:53:54I

00:53:54usually

00:53:55use

00:53:55whenever

00:53:55I

00:53:55describe

00:53:56this

00:53:56because

00:53:56you

00:53:57really

00:53:58needed

00:53:58that

00:53:59you

00:53:59needed

00:53:59apostle

00:54:00means

00:54:01somebody

00:54:01who's

00:54:02sent

00:54:02out

00:54:02it's

00:54:03very

00:54:03close

00:54:03to

00:54:04the

00:54:05ancient

00:54:05word

00:54:06for

00:54:06a

00:54:06missionary

00:54:06this

00:54:06is

00:54:07somebody

00:54:07who

00:54:07goes

00:54:07out

00:54:08but

00:54:09what

00:54:09you

00:54:09find

00:54:09in

00:54:10this

00:54:10weird

00:54:10five-fold

00:54:11cult

00:54:12that

00:54:12exists

00:54:12today

00:54:13anybody

00:54:13who claims

00:54:14that

00:54:14they're

00:54:14in

00:54:15this

00:54:15five-fold

00:54:15thing

00:54:16and

00:54:16they

00:54:16have

00:54:16an

00:54:16office

00:54:16that's

00:54:17not

00:54:22apostle

00:54:22or

00:54:22any

00:54:22of

00:54:22the

00:54:22others

00:54:23they

00:54:23started

00:54:23out

00:54:24and

00:54:24then

00:54:25what

00:54:25happened

00:54:26was

00:54:26usually

00:54:27and

00:54:28I

00:54:29know

00:54:29there

00:54:29are

00:54:30exceptions

00:54:30to

00:54:30this

00:54:30rule

00:54:31but

00:54:31usually

00:54:31it's

00:54:31somebody

00:54:32who

00:54:32you

00:54:33can

00:54:33clearly

00:54:33tell

00:54:33has

00:54:34some

00:54:34sort

00:54:34of

00:54:34a

00:54:34mental

00:54:35health

00:54:35issue

00:54:35or

00:54:36who

00:54:36is

00:54:37struggling

00:54:38with

00:54:38narcissistic

00:54:39personality

00:54:39disorder

00:54:40to think

00:54:40that they

00:54:41are

00:54:41something

00:54:41more

00:54:42than

00:54:42the

00:54:42preacher

00:54:43that

00:54:43they

00:54:44are

00:54:44so

00:54:45they

00:54:45start

00:54:45to

00:54:45see

00:54:46themselves

00:54:46as

00:54:47this

00:54:47new

00:54:47apostle

00:54:48or

00:54:48prophet

00:54:49or

00:54:49whatever

00:54:49the

00:54:49office

00:54:49is

00:54:50so

00:54:50they

00:54:50try

00:54:51to

00:54:51step

00:54:51into

00:54:51a

00:54:51role

00:54:52that

00:54:52wasn't

00:54:53really

00:54:53fitting

00:54:53for

00:54:53them

00:54:54in

00:54:54the

00:54:54first

00:54:54place

00:54:54but

00:54:55go

00:54:56back

00:54:56to

00:54:56the

00:54:56role

00:54:56of

00:54:56teacher

00:54:57in

00:54:57our

00:54:58in

00:54:58today's

00:54:59world

00:54:59we

00:54:59didn't

00:54:59come

00:55:00out

00:55:00of

00:55:00pagan

00:55:00religion

00:55:01we

00:55:01do

00:55:01understand

00:55:02as

00:55:02Christians

00:55:03by

00:55:03and

00:55:03large

00:55:03the

00:55:04Christian

00:55:04religion

00:55:04we

00:55:05teach

00:55:05our

00:55:05children

00:55:05the

00:55:06Christian

00:55:06religion

00:55:06the

00:55:07office

00:55:08of

00:55:08teacher

00:55:08in

00:55:09today's

00:55:09world

00:55:09almost

00:55:10doesn't

00:55:10make

00:55:10sense

00:55:11because

00:55:11from

00:55:12a

00:55:12very

00:55:12early

00:55:12age

00:55:13we're

00:55:13being

00:55:13taught

00:55:14in

00:55:14our

00:55:14Sunday

00:55:14school

00:55:15programs

00:55:15even

00:55:16adult

00:55:17Sunday

00:55:17school

00:55:17programs

00:55:18and

00:55:18you

00:55:19have

00:55:19people

00:55:19teaching

00:55:20people

00:55:20you

00:55:21really

00:55:21don't

00:55:21have

00:55:22the

00:55:22need

00:55:22for

00:55:22that

00:55:22specific

00:55:23office

00:55:24and

00:55:25I

00:55:25find

00:55:25it

00:55:25very

00:55:26ironic

00:55:26that

00:55:27Hobart

00:55:27Freeman

00:55:27chooses

00:55:28the

00:55:28office

00:55:29of

00:55:29a

00:55:29teacher

00:55:30I

00:55:30don't

00:55:31know

00:55:31why

00:55:31that

00:55:31is

00:55:31because

00:55:32most

00:55:32cult

00:55:32leaders

00:55:33as

00:55:34a

00:55:34narcissistic

00:55:35personality

00:55:36disorder

00:55:36they want

00:55:36to go

00:55:37to the

00:55:37very

00:55:37top

00:55:37and

00:55:38this

00:55:39five-fold

00:55:39ministry

00:55:40while

00:55:41the

00:55:41biblical

00:55:41version

00:55:42of

00:55:42it

00:55:42is

00:55:43a

00:55:43case

00:55:45where

00:55:45everybody

00:55:45is

00:55:46equal

00:55:46everybody

00:55:46is

00:55:47doing

00:55:47their

00:55:47specific

00:55:48part

00:55:48their

00:55:49specific

00:55:49role

00:55:49there

00:55:49is

00:55:50no

00:55:50authority

00:55:50the

00:55:51version

00:55:51of

00:55:52five-fold

00:55:52ministry

00:55:52cult

00:55:53is

00:55:53usually

00:55:53a

00:55:53pyramid

00:55:54where

00:55:54at

00:55:54the

00:55:55very

00:55:55top

00:55:55is

00:55:55the

00:55:55apostle

00:55:56guy

00:55:56so

00:55:56that's

00:55:57why

00:55:57every

00:55:57single

00:55:58one

00:55:58of

00:55:58these

00:55:58guys

00:55:58wants

00:55:59to

00:55:59say

00:55:59I'm

00:55:59an

00:55:59apostle

00:56:00and

00:56:01if

00:56:01they

00:56:02are

00:56:02coming

00:56:03in

00:56:03under

00:56:03somebody

00:56:04they'll

00:56:04say

00:56:04well

00:56:04I'm

00:56:04a

00:56:05prophet

00:56:05because

00:56:06the

00:56:06guy

00:56:06at

00:56:06the

00:56:06top

00:56:06is

00:56:06the

00:56:07apostle

00:56:07it's

00:56:07a

00:56:07pyramid

00:56:08scheme

00:56:08but

00:56:09the

00:56:09role

00:56:10of

00:56:10a

00:56:10teacher

00:56:10isn't

00:56:10usually

00:56:11the

00:56:11one

00:56:11that

00:56:12they

00:56:12choose

00:56:12and

00:56:13like

00:56:14I

00:56:14said

00:56:14in

00:56:14today's

00:56:14world

00:56:14you

00:56:15don't

00:56:15even

00:56:15need

00:56:15it

00:56:15so

00:56:16the

00:56:16whole

00:56:17thing

00:56:17to

00:56:17me

00:56:17doesn't

00:56:17make

00:56:18sense

00:56:18and

00:56:19I

00:56:19think

00:56:19the

00:56:19reason

00:56:19that

00:56:20Hobart

00:56:20and

00:56:20that's

00:56:21a

00:56:21good

00:56:21observation

00:56:22John

00:56:22he

00:56:22didn't

00:56:22claim

00:56:23any

00:56:23of

00:56:23those

00:56:23the

00:56:24top

00:56:24two

00:56:24apostle

00:56:25or

00:56:25prophet

00:56:26I

00:56:28think

00:56:28the

00:56:28reason

00:56:28that

00:56:28he

00:56:28didn't

00:56:29is

00:56:29because

00:56:30he

00:56:30had

00:56:30enough

00:56:31common

00:56:32sense

00:56:32and

00:56:32biblical

00:56:32sense

00:56:33even

00:56:33though

00:56:33he

00:56:33had

00:56:33lots

00:56:34of

00:56:34narcissism

00:56:34too

00:56:35to

00:56:36remember

00:56:37that

00:56:37he

00:56:37himself

00:56:38had

00:56:38taught

00:56:38that

00:56:39in

00:56:39order

00:56:39to

00:56:39be

00:56:39an

00:56:39apostle

00:56:40that

00:56:40requires

00:56:41a

00:56:41direct

00:56:42appearance

00:56:43of

00:56:43Jesus

00:56:43Christ

00:56:44to

00:56:44you

00:56:45as

00:56:46we

00:56:46see

00:56:46in

00:56:46the

00:56:46end

00:56:46of

00:56:47Acts

00:56:471

00:56:47in

00:56:47order

00:56:48for

00:56:48them

00:56:48to

00:56:48have

00:56:49chosen

00:56:49a

00:56:49replacement

00:56:50for

00:56:50Judas

00:56:51the

00:56:52requirements

00:56:53were

00:56:53you

00:56:54had

00:56:54to

00:56:54have

00:56:54seen

00:56:55the

00:56:55Lord

00:56:55Jesus

00:56:56you

00:56:56had

00:56:56to

00:56:57have

00:56:57been

00:56:57a

00:56:57part

00:56:58of

00:56:58his

00:56:59ministry

00:57:00in

00:57:01his

00:57:02life

00:57:02you

00:57:02had

00:57:02to

00:57:02have

00:57:03seen

00:57:03him

00:57:03after

00:57:03the

00:57:04resurrection

00:57:04you

00:57:05know

00:57:05you

00:57:06couldn't

00:57:07just

00:57:07go

00:57:09out

00:57:09into

00:57:09the

00:57:09world

00:57:10in

00:57:10the

00:57:10first

00:57:10century

00:57:11and

00:57:11claim

00:57:11to

00:57:12be

00:57:12an

00:57:13apostle

00:57:13if

00:57:14you

00:57:14didn't

00:57:14meet

00:57:15certain

00:57:15requirements

00:57:16and

00:57:17that's

00:57:17why

00:57:17the

00:57:17apostle

00:57:18Paul

00:57:18was

00:57:18so

00:57:18different

00:57:19because

00:57:20we

00:57:20know

00:57:20that

00:57:20he

00:57:21was

00:57:21not

00:57:21a

00:57:22part

00:57:22of

00:57:22Jesus

00:57:22ministry

00:57:23he

00:57:24was

00:57:24not

00:57:24a

00:57:24part

00:57:25of

00:57:25the

00:57:25group

00:57:25in

00:57:26the

00:57:26upper

00:57:26room

00:57:26who

00:57:27saw

00:57:27Jesus

00:57:27in

00:57:28his

00:57:28resurrected

00:57:29state

00:57:29that's

00:57:30why

00:57:30we

00:57:31have

00:57:31such

00:57:31a

00:57:32big

00:57:32emphasis

00:57:32in

00:57:33the

00:57:33book

00:57:33of

00:57:34Acts

00:57:34on

00:57:35Paul's

00:57:36conversion

00:57:36experience

00:57:37on the

00:57:37road

00:57:37to

00:57:38Damascus

00:57:38where

00:57:39he

00:57:39did

00:57:42of

00:57:42early

00:57:43church

00:57:43history

00:57:43when

00:57:44you

00:57:45want

00:57:46to

00:57:46economize

00:57:47space

00:57:48because

00:57:48you

00:57:48have

00:57:48so

00:57:49much

00:57:49to

00:57:49tell

00:57:50Luke

00:57:51tells

00:57:52Paul's

00:57:52conversion

00:57:53experience

00:57:54three

00:57:54different

00:57:55times

00:57:56when

00:57:57one

00:57:57would

00:57:57be

00:57:57sufficient

00:57:58when

00:57:59you

00:57:59look

00:57:59at

00:58:00what

00:58:00an

00:58:00author

00:58:00does

00:58:01and

00:58:01you

00:58:01ask

00:58:02why

00:58:02did

00:58:02he

00:58:02do

00:58:03it

00:58:03and

00:58:04I

00:58:04think

00:58:04the

00:58:04reason

00:58:05Luke

00:58:05told

00:58:06Paul's

00:58:06conversion

00:58:07experience

00:58:07three

00:58:08different

00:58:08times

00:58:08is

00:58:09it

00:58:09was

00:58:09so

00:58:09important

00:58:10and

00:58:10so

00:58:10significant

00:58:11for

00:58:11the

00:58:12early

00:58:12church

00:58:12to

00:58:12recognize

00:58:13that

00:58:14even

00:58:14though

00:58:14the

00:58:15apostle

00:58:15Paul

00:58:15wasn't

00:58:16a

00:58:16part

00:58:16of

00:58:16the

00:58:17twelve

00:58:17and

00:58:18even

00:58:18though

00:58:18he

00:58:19wasn't

00:58:20the

00:58:20replacement

00:58:21for

00:58:21Judas

00:58:21even

00:58:22though

00:58:22he

00:58:23didn't

00:58:23see

00:58:23Jesus

00:58:24in

00:58:24Jesus

00:58:24earthly

00:58:25ministry

00:58:25Jesus

00:58:27made

00:58:27a

00:58:27specific

00:58:28direct

00:58:29appearance

00:58:29to him

00:58:30on the

00:58:30road

00:58:30to

00:58:30Damascus

00:58:31and

00:58:31we

00:58:31read

00:58:32the

00:58:32first

00:58:32account

00:58:33in

00:58:33Acts

00:58:349

00:58:35of

00:58:35that

00:58:35account

00:58:36of

00:58:36Paul

00:58:37seeing

00:58:37the

00:58:38risen

00:58:38Lord

00:58:38and

00:58:38being

00:58:39called

00:58:39into

00:58:40the

00:58:40ministry

00:58:40Hobart

00:58:41knew

00:58:41he's

00:58:41not

00:58:41seen

00:58:41Jesus

00:58:42now

00:58:42he

00:58:42might

00:58:43have

00:58:43seen

00:58:43a

00:58:43vision

00:58:44or

00:58:44a

00:58:44dream

00:58:44but

00:58:44he

00:58:45has

00:58:45not

00:58:45seen

00:58:46Jesus

00:58:46as

00:58:47the

00:58:47apostles

00:58:47in

00:58:47the

00:58:48New

00:58:48Testament

00:58:48did

00:58:49and

00:58:49as

00:58:50Paul

00:58:50did

00:58:50so

00:58:51then

00:58:51we're

00:58:52again

00:58:52we're

00:58:52back

00:58:52to

00:58:53today

00:58:53how

00:58:54can

00:58:54you

00:58:54claim

00:58:54to

00:58:54be

00:58:54an

00:58:55apostle

00:58:55today

00:58:55I

00:58:56don't

00:58:56think

00:58:56they

00:58:57understand

00:58:57the

00:58:58people

00:58:58claiming

00:58:58that

00:58:58what

00:58:59the

00:58:59biblical

00:58:59requirements

00:59:00are

00:59:00and

00:59:00they

00:59:01are

00:59:01that

00:59:01you

00:59:01were

00:59:02a

00:59:02part

00:59:02of

00:59:02the

00:59:03Lord's

00:59:03ministry

00:59:03and

00:59:04if

00:59:04you

00:59:04weren't

00:59:04that

00:59:05you

00:59:05have

00:59:05to

00:59:05be

00:59:05the

00:59:06exception

00:59:06like

00:59:07the

00:59:07apostle

00:59:07Paul

00:59:07was

00:59:08and

00:59:08you

00:59:09know

00:59:09we

00:59:09just

00:59:10don't

00:59:10have

00:59:10that

00:59:10I

00:59:11think

00:59:11Hobart

00:59:11knew

00:59:12he

00:59:12couldn't

00:59:12claim

00:59:13those

00:59:13things

00:59:14because

00:59:14it's

00:59:14going

00:59:14to

00:59:15contradict

00:59:15all

00:59:16that

00:59:16he

00:59:16had

00:59:16taught

00:59:16the

00:59:17people

00:59:17before

00:59:17so

00:59:18he

00:59:18was

00:59:19happy

00:59:19being

00:59:20stuck

00:59:21down

00:59:21at

00:59:21the

00:59:21bottom

00:59:21as

00:59:22a

00:59:22pastor

00:59:22or

00:59:22teacher

00:59:23but

00:59:23he

00:59:24claimed

00:59:24he

00:59:24was

00:59:24a

00:59:24prophetic

00:59:25teacher

00:59:26that

00:59:27his

00:59:27teachings

00:59:29had

00:59:29a

00:59:29prophetic

00:59:30element

00:59:30to

00:59:31him

00:59:31it

00:59:31wasn't

00:59:32just

00:59:32Bible

00:59:32exposition

00:59:33he

00:59:33called

00:59:34that

00:59:34the

00:59:34dead

00:59:34letter

00:59:35of

00:59:35the

00:59:35word

00:59:35I

00:59:36don't

00:59:38even

00:59:38know

00:59:39that

00:59:39Hobart

00:59:39understood

00:59:40what

00:59:41Paul

00:59:41meant

00:59:41when

00:59:42Paul

00:59:42used

00:59:42that

00:59:43phrase

00:59:43I

00:59:43know

00:59:44those

00:59:44two

00:59:44men

00:59:44meant

00:59:45two

00:59:45entirely

00:59:46different

00:59:46things

00:59:47Hobart

00:59:48didn't

00:59:48like

00:59:49just

00:59:49the

00:59:49writing

00:59:49on

00:59:50the

00:59:50page

00:59:50you

00:59:50had

00:59:51to

00:59:51have

00:59:51the

00:59:51spiritual

00:59:52meaning

00:59:52of

00:59:53it

00:59:53in

00:59:54order

00:59:54for

00:59:55it

00:59:55to

00:59:55be

00:59:55valid

00:59:55but

00:59:56this

00:59:56inconsistency

00:59:58in

00:59:59the

01:00:00fact

01:00:00that

01:00:00there

01:00:01aren't

01:00:01any

01:00:01ministry

01:00:02offices

01:00:02at

01:00:03faith

01:00:03assembly

01:00:04except

01:00:04the

01:00:05teacher

01:00:05and

01:00:06yet

01:00:06these

01:00:06people

01:00:07constantly

01:00:07said

01:00:08well

01:00:08we

01:00:09believe

01:00:09in

01:00:09five

01:00:10fold

01:00:10ministry

01:00:10and

01:00:11as

01:00:11I

01:00:11was

01:00:12emerging

01:00:13from

01:00:13the

01:00:14fog

01:00:14of

01:00:14that

01:00:14false

01:00:15teaching

01:00:15back

01:00:15in

01:00:16my

01:00:16twenties

01:00:17asking

01:00:17the

01:00:17question

01:00:18well

01:00:19if

01:00:19you

01:00:19believe

01:00:20in

01:00:20it

01:00:20then

01:00:20where

01:00:21are

01:00:21they

01:00:21and

01:00:22they

01:00:22just

01:00:22insisted

01:00:23on

01:00:23well

01:00:23he's

01:00:24a

01:00:24five

01:00:24fold

01:00:24he's

01:00:24a

01:00:25one

01:00:27fold

01:00:27you

01:00:28believe

01:00:29in

01:00:29a

01:00:29one

01:00:29fold

01:00:30ministry

01:00:31you

01:00:31don't

01:00:32have

01:00:32Ephesians

01:00:334

01:00:3311

01:00:33you

01:00:35have

01:00:35a

01:00:35one

01:00:36fold

01:00:36ministry

01:00:36of

01:00:37a

01:00:37teacher

01:00:37all

01:00:38these

01:00:38men

01:00:39were

01:00:39being

01:00:39sent

01:00:40out

01:00:40to

01:00:40all

01:00:40of

01:00:41these

01:00:41satellite

01:00:41groups

01:00:42and

01:00:43none

01:00:43of

01:00:43them

01:00:44were

01:00:45even

01:00:45given

01:00:46the

01:00:47allowance

01:00:50by

01:00:50Hobart

01:00:51to

01:00:51become

01:00:51a

01:00:52pastor

01:00:52they

01:00:52had

01:00:52to

01:00:53come

01:00:53back

01:00:53and

01:00:54hear

01:00:54him

01:00:55teach

01:00:56what

01:00:56he

01:00:57had

01:00:57to

01:00:57say

01:00:57you

01:00:58know

01:00:58one

01:00:58time

01:00:58we

01:00:59had

01:00:59someone

01:00:59show

01:01:00up

01:01:00in

01:01:00my

01:01:00church

01:01:01John

01:01:01who

01:01:01was

01:01:02a

01:01:02prophet

01:01:02a

01:01:03very

01:01:03young

01:01:04man

01:01:04newly

01:01:05married

01:01:05no

01:01:05children

01:01:06I

01:01:07won't

01:01:07mention

01:01:08his

01:01:08name

01:01:08but

01:01:10he

01:01:10showed

01:01:10up

01:01:10before

01:01:11he

01:01:11came

01:01:11he

01:01:12called

01:01:12me

01:01:12got

01:01:13my

01:01:13telephone

01:01:13number

01:01:14and

01:01:15actually

01:01:16before

01:01:16he

01:01:16moved

01:01:17to

01:01:17the

01:01:17state

01:01:18he

01:01:19was

01:01:19leaving

01:01:19another

01:01:20one

01:01:20of

01:01:21these

01:01:21faith

01:01:22assembly

01:01:22satellite

01:01:22groups

01:01:23he

01:01:23was

01:01:23a

01:01:23part

01:01:24of

01:01:24Tom

01:01:24Hamilton's

01:01:25church

01:01:25in

01:01:25Shelbyville

01:01:26Kentucky

01:01:26and

01:01:27he

01:01:28called

01:01:28me

01:01:28and

01:01:29said

01:01:30he

01:01:30wanted

01:01:31to

01:01:31come

01:01:32and

01:01:32join

01:01:32my

01:01:33group

01:01:33he

01:01:33didn't

01:01:33tell

01:01:33me

01:01:34who

01:01:34or

01:01:34what

01:01:34he

01:01:34was

01:01:35just

01:01:35where

01:01:36he

01:01:36was

01:01:36coming

01:01:36from

01:01:37well

01:01:37I

01:01:38never

01:01:38wanted

01:01:38to be

01:01:38any

01:01:39kind

01:01:39of

01:01:39sheep

01:01:41stealer

01:01:41so

01:01:42I

01:01:42actually

01:01:42called

01:01:43Tom

01:01:43Hamill

01:01:43on the

01:01:44phone

01:01:44I

01:01:44said

01:01:44Tom

01:01:44somebody

01:01:45is

01:01:45wanting

01:01:45to

01:01:46leave

01:01:46your

01:01:46church

01:01:46and

01:01:46come

01:01:46and

01:01:47join

01:01:47my

01:01:47church

01:01:47and

01:01:48I

01:01:48said

01:01:48I

01:01:48don't

01:01:50like

01:01:50the

01:01:51appearance

01:01:51of

01:01:51that

01:01:52everybody

01:01:52is

01:01:53out

01:01:53there

01:01:53stealing

01:01:53everybody

01:01:54else's

01:01:54people

01:01:55I

01:01:55said

01:01:55that's

01:01:56the

01:01:56furthest

01:01:56thing

01:01:56from

01:01:57I

01:01:57would

01:01:58ever

01:01:58want

01:01:58to

01:01:58do

01:01:58and

01:01:59when

01:02:00Tom

01:02:00heard

01:02:01who

01:02:01it

01:02:01was

01:02:02they

01:02:03should

01:02:03have

01:02:03told

01:02:03me

01:02:03something

01:02:04when

01:02:04Tom

01:02:04told

01:02:05me

01:02:05who

01:02:05it

01:02:05was

01:02:05it

01:02:05wanted

01:02:06to

01:02:06come

01:02:06he

01:02:06said

01:02:07oh

01:02:07that's

01:02:07fine

01:02:07that's

01:02:08fine

01:02:08that's

01:02:09fine

01:02:09if

01:02:09they

01:02:09join

01:02:09so

01:02:11whenever

01:02:12they

01:02:13did

01:02:13come

01:02:13and

01:02:14want

01:02:14to

01:02:14become

01:02:15a

01:02:15part

01:02:15of

01:02:15the

01:02:15church

01:02:16well

01:02:16then

01:02:16the

01:02:17young

01:02:17man

01:02:17told

01:02:17me

01:02:17he

01:02:17was

01:02:18a

01:02:18prophet

01:02:18and

01:02:19I'm

01:02:19just

01:02:20like

01:02:20oh

01:02:20my

01:02:21and

01:02:23he

01:02:24didn't

01:02:24last

01:02:24a

01:02:25week

01:02:25or

01:02:25two

01:02:25you

01:02:25know

01:02:26he

01:02:26was

01:02:26not

01:02:26a

01:02:26prophet

01:02:27he

01:02:27was

01:02:27just

01:02:27one

01:02:28of

01:02:28these

01:02:28you

01:02:29know

01:02:30vague

01:02:30migrant

01:02:31church

01:02:32travelers

01:02:33that

01:02:33just

01:02:33traveled

01:02:34around

01:02:34hoped

01:02:35that

01:02:35a

01:02:35group

01:02:35would

01:02:35give

01:02:36him

01:02:36an

01:02:37audience

01:02:37so

01:02:38that

01:02:38he

01:02:38could

01:02:38deliver

01:02:39his

01:02:39prophecies

01:02:40to

01:02:41them

01:02:41but

01:02:43I

01:02:45conclusion

01:02:45at

01:02:46the

01:02:46very

01:02:46end

01:02:47of

01:02:47Hobart's

01:02:47book

01:02:48on

01:02:48body

01:02:48ministry

01:02:49it's

01:02:50almost

01:02:50like

01:02:51the

01:02:52very

01:02:52last

01:02:52paragraph

01:02:53John

01:02:53it's

01:02:53almost

01:02:54like

01:02:54even

01:02:54though

01:02:54he's

01:02:55talking

01:02:55about

01:02:55restoration

01:02:56restoration

01:02:57restoration

01:02:57the

01:02:59very

01:02:59last

01:02:59paragraph

01:03:00of

01:03:00the

01:03:00book

01:03:00he

01:03:01says

01:03:02we

01:03:02believe

01:03:02that

01:03:03these

01:03:03charismatic

01:03:04house

01:03:04groups

01:03:05which

01:03:05meet

01:03:06regularly

01:03:06for

01:03:07worship

01:03:07will

01:03:08either

01:03:08be

01:03:09directed

01:03:09by

01:03:10the

01:03:10spirit

01:03:10to

01:03:11become

01:03:11full

01:03:11New

01:03:12Testament

01:03:12churches

01:03:13or

01:03:14the

01:03:15participants

01:03:15of

01:03:16such

01:03:16groups

01:03:16should

01:03:17also

01:03:17be

01:03:18a

01:03:18part

01:03:18of

01:03:18the

01:03:18ministry

01:03:20of

01:03:20charismatic

01:03:21churches

01:03:22already

01:03:22functioning

01:03:23Hobart never

01:03:25gave his

01:03:26ministers

01:03:26the freedom

01:03:27to go

01:03:27establish

01:03:27churches

01:03:28and that's

01:03:28what it's

01:03:28all about

01:03:29is a

01:03:29restoration

01:03:30of

01:03:30everything

01:03:31and in

01:03:32the very

01:03:33last paragraph

01:03:33he's almost

01:03:34holding on

01:03:35to the fact

01:03:35that maybe

01:03:36you'll

01:03:36never

01:03:36maybe you

01:03:37will never

01:03:38become

01:03:39a fully

01:03:39functioning

01:03:40New

01:03:40Testament

01:03:41church

01:03:41but what

01:03:41you can

01:03:42do

01:03:42is you

01:03:43can

01:03:43keep

01:03:43listening

01:03:44to

01:03:44our

01:03:44tapes

01:03:45and

01:03:45reading

01:03:45my

01:03:45books

01:03:46because

01:03:47we're

01:03:47a

01:03:47functioning

01:03:47church

01:03:48and

01:03:49as long

01:03:49as you

01:03:49stay

01:03:49a part

01:03:50of

01:03:50us

01:03:50then

01:03:51you'll

01:03:51be

01:03:51okay

01:03:52the

01:03:53inconsistencies

01:03:54I know

01:03:54we don't

01:03:54deal

01:03:55with this

01:03:55biblically

01:03:56here

01:03:56exegetically

01:03:57John

01:03:57but the

01:03:58inconsistencies

01:03:59were just

01:04:00so big

01:04:01in my

01:04:01mind

01:04:02the only

01:04:02way

01:04:03I could

01:04:03possibly

01:04:04have

01:04:04gotten

01:04:04out of

01:04:05that

01:04:05is to

01:04:05say

01:04:05well

01:04:06so far

01:04:06everything

01:04:07they have

01:04:08said

01:04:08has not

01:04:09been

01:04:09true

01:04:10and so

01:04:11far

01:04:11every

01:04:11apostle

01:04:12that

01:04:12I have

01:04:13been

01:04:13told

01:04:14about

01:04:14and every

01:04:15prophet

01:04:15I have

01:04:16been

01:04:16told

01:04:17about

01:04:17they're

01:04:17all

01:04:18false

01:04:18the only

01:04:19way

01:04:19you can

01:04:19continue

01:04:20to hold

01:04:20on to

01:04:21it

01:04:21is say

01:04:21but maybe

01:04:23God

01:04:23is still

01:04:24going to

01:04:25restore

01:04:26those two

01:04:26offices

01:04:26to the

01:04:27church

01:04:27that's

01:04:28when I

01:04:28would

01:04:29say

01:04:29please

01:04:30go back

01:04:30and look

01:04:30at

01:04:31Ephesians

01:04:312

01:04:3120

01:04:32where Paul

01:04:33clearly

01:04:33says

01:04:34that

01:04:34the

01:04:35foundation

01:04:36of the

01:04:37Christian

01:04:37church

01:04:38of the

01:04:38first

01:04:38century

01:04:39the

01:04:40foundation

01:04:40not all

01:04:41the rest

01:04:41of it

01:04:42that's

01:04:42been

01:04:42built

01:04:42down

01:04:42through

01:04:43the

01:04:43centuries

01:04:43the

01:04:44foundation

01:04:44of it

01:04:45he said

01:04:46is built

01:04:47on the

01:04:47apostles

01:04:48and on

01:04:48the

01:04:48prophets

01:04:49and had

01:04:50we just

01:04:50had guys

01:04:51floating

01:04:51around

01:04:52in the

01:04:52first

01:04:52century

01:04:53who

01:04:53didn't

01:04:53know

01:04:53what

01:04:53they

01:04:53were

01:04:54talking

01:04:54about

01:04:54Christianity

01:04:55never

01:04:56would

01:04:56have

01:04:56lasted

01:04:57but

01:04:57because

01:04:58we

01:04:58had

01:04:59the

01:04:59apostles

01:04:59and

01:05:00the

01:05:00prophets

01:05:00of the

01:05:01first

01:05:01century

01:05:02which I

01:05:03think

01:05:03that was

01:05:03their

01:05:04to get

01:05:05the

01:05:05church

01:05:06established

01:05:06to

01:05:07write

01:05:08scripture

01:05:09and

01:05:10now

01:05:10that

01:05:10we

01:05:10have

01:05:11a

01:05:11closed

01:05:11New

01:05:12Testament

01:05:12canon

01:05:13you know

01:05:13I'm

01:05:14very

01:05:15suspicious

01:05:16of anyone

01:05:17who claims

01:05:17to be

01:05:18an apostle

01:05:18or a

01:05:19prophet

01:05:19today

01:05:20well in

01:05:20my opinion

01:05:21they would

01:05:22have a

01:05:22much more

01:05:22solid

01:05:23ministry

01:05:23if we

01:05:23were able

01:05:24to pass

01:05:24out

01:05:24Balaam's

01:05:25donkeys

01:05:25to each

01:05:26of them

01:05:26that's

01:05:28about all

01:05:29I'll say

01:05:29about it

01:05:29thank you

01:05:30so much

01:05:30for doing

01:05:30this

01:05:31yeah

01:05:32thanks for

01:05:32having me

01:05:32John

01:05:33well if

01:05:33you've

01:05:34enjoyed our

01:05:34show and

01:05:34want more

01:05:35information

01:05:35you can

01:05:35check us

01:05:36out on

01:05:36the web

01:05:36you can

01:05:37find us

01:05:37at

01:05:37william-branham.org

01:05:39for more

01:05:39about the

01:05:40dark side

01:05:40of the new

01:05:41apostolic

01:05:41reformation

01:05:42you can

01:05:42read weaponized

01:05:43religion from

01:05:44christian identity

01:05:45to the

01:05:45NAR

01:05:46available on

01:05:47amazon

01:05:47kindle

01:05:48and audible

01:05:49do

01:05:51and

01:05:51you can

01:05:52hold on

01:05:52it

01:05:54and

01:05:54you can

01:05:55see

01:05:55if

01:05:55you can

01:05:56see

01:05:56in

01:05:57a

01:05:58and

01:05:58of

01:05:59you

01:05:59and

01:05:59you

01:06:00can

01:06:01and

01:06:01see

Five Fold or One Fold? The Myth of Restored Apostles and Prophets | Chino Ross | Podcast Episode 418

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