- 3 months ago
John and Chino discuss the complex evolution of the doctrine of the Trinity in fringe religious movements and how it impacted followers of William Branham and Hobart Freeman. Chino opens by recounting a personal phone call from Kathy Kinsey, who warns him about speaking critically of her late father, Hobart Freeman, and describes the interaction as a one-sided monologue. The hosts reflect on how cult mindsets produce emotionally charged, irrational responses and prevent honest dialogue. They analyze how theological positions become interwoven with identity, especially in authoritarian religious environments, making disagreement feel like a personal attack.
The discussion then shifts to a deep examination of Hobart Freeman's transition from orthodox Trinitarian belief to a hybrid influenced by Oneness Pentecostalism and Branham's teachings. Chino traces Freeman's theological drift, his fixation on baptism in Jesus' name, and the tension in his efforts to reconcile traditional doctrine with charismatic influences. John shares how historical research and early church debates helped him move beyond Branham's teachings. Together, they explore how early Christian councils shaped the orthodox understanding of the Godhead, contrast it with Freeman's conflated definition, and highlight the logical fallacies and contradictions Freeman introduced. The episode concludes by urging respectful, open inquiry over rigid dogma.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John and Chino reflect on Trinity part one and transition to part two
03:10 Chino recounts phone call with Kathy Kinsey, daughter of Hobart Freeman
06:57 Analyzing cult behavior in Freeman’s followers
10:00 John and Chino examine how cult identity overrides critical thinking
12:02 Double standards in confronting cults versus one’s own group
15:00 The value of respectful disagreement and mature dialogue
17:01 Chino shares his experience transitioning out of Freeman’s teachings
18:02 Healthy versus cultic responses to theological disagreement
19:04 Walter Martin’s debate with Oneness Pentecostals
21:02 Chino outlines his goals: documenting Freeman’s doctrinal evolution
23:00 Explaining Freeman’s original orthodox view of the Godhead
24:55 Freeman’s turn toward charismatic views and criticism of denominations
26:14 Influence of Branham and Oneness theology on Freeman
27:37 Freeman’s six-year struggle with baptismal formula and Godhead
29:06 Effort to synthesize Trinity and Oneness beliefs
31:00 Conflicting statements from Freeman on whether Oneness is heresy
32:00 Redefining heresy and identifying theological contradictions
34:47 John explains the danger of extreme fasting trends in Branham circles
36:04 John’s journey from Oneness to Trinitarian understanding
38:15 The historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity
40:55 Church councils and theological definitions in early Christianity
43:45 The purpose and nature of early church councils
45:41 Jesus as central figure in defining God’s nature
48:04 Councils c
The discussion then shifts to a deep examination of Hobart Freeman's transition from orthodox Trinitarian belief to a hybrid influenced by Oneness Pentecostalism and Branham's teachings. Chino traces Freeman's theological drift, his fixation on baptism in Jesus' name, and the tension in his efforts to reconcile traditional doctrine with charismatic influences. John shares how historical research and early church debates helped him move beyond Branham's teachings. Together, they explore how early Christian councils shaped the orthodox understanding of the Godhead, contrast it with Freeman's conflated definition, and highlight the logical fallacies and contradictions Freeman introduced. The episode concludes by urging respectful, open inquiry over rigid dogma.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John and Chino reflect on Trinity part one and transition to part two
03:10 Chino recounts phone call with Kathy Kinsey, daughter of Hobart Freeman
06:57 Analyzing cult behavior in Freeman’s followers
10:00 John and Chino examine how cult identity overrides critical thinking
12:02 Double standards in confronting cults versus one’s own group
15:00 The value of respectful disagreement and mature dialogue
17:01 Chino shares his experience transitioning out of Freeman’s teachings
18:02 Healthy versus cultic responses to theological disagreement
19:04 Walter Martin’s debate with Oneness Pentecostals
21:02 Chino outlines his goals: documenting Freeman’s doctrinal evolution
23:00 Explaining Freeman’s original orthodox view of the Godhead
24:55 Freeman’s turn toward charismatic views and criticism of denominations
26:14 Influence of Branham and Oneness theology on Freeman
27:37 Freeman’s six-year struggle with baptismal formula and Godhead
29:06 Effort to synthesize Trinity and Oneness beliefs
31:00 Conflicting statements from Freeman on whether Oneness is heresy
32:00 Redefining heresy and identifying theological contradictions
34:47 John explains the danger of extreme fasting trends in Branham circles
36:04 John’s journey from Oneness to Trinitarian understanding
38:15 The historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity
40:55 Church councils and theological definitions in early Christianity
43:45 The purpose and nature of early church councils
45:41 Jesus as central figure in defining God’s nature
48:04 Councils c
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,
00:00:47pastor and the voice of The Understanding Scripture and Truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel.
00:00:53Cheno, last time, I think I gave more Branham quotes in one episode than I have given in
00:00:59any other episode when we were talking about the Trinity, but I did so.
00:01:04I wanted to prove a point because there's so many people that think he was Oneness Pentecostal.
00:01:09In fact, I just met with a theologian in a meeting two days ago, and we were talking about exactly
00:01:17that.
00:01:17He thought it was a Oneness Pentecostal sect.
00:01:20And I began explaining that when William Branham would go to this audience, if they were Trinitarian,
00:01:26he would preach a Trinitarian sermon and pray to the persons of the Trinity in his prayers,
00:01:32and then go to the next service and condemn anybody who did this as having accepted the
00:01:37mark of the beast.
00:01:38That's the vast difference between how his stage personas were.
00:01:43And I came to the conclusion he didn't have any convictions, because if you have a conviction,
00:01:49if you truly believe this is the mark of the beast, you're not going to do the thing that
00:01:53gives you the mark of the beast, right?
00:01:55So, and he claimed from his early years back in the, what was it, 1930s, he claimed that he
00:02:01had always taken that position.
00:02:03And no, it's not it.
00:02:05So, anyway, I filled the podcast with so many quotes that I really didn't give you much time
00:02:11to talk.
00:02:12So, let's have Trinity Part 2, and let's dive a bit deeper.
00:02:17Well, I mean, those quotes, I thought, were necessary and helpful, because part of what
00:02:22I was wanting to document was the influence that William Branham had on Dr. Freeman once
00:02:29he began associating with charismatic and Pentecostal people.
00:02:34But, I mean, from my side, John, I don't think I did a very good job on Hef and the Trinity.
00:02:41So, I needed another crack at it anyway.
00:02:44I think part of the reason is just the difficulty of the topic.
00:02:49Like, this isn't talking about squirrels and hollow logs, you know, where we can just kind
00:02:56of roll that over on your tongue and keep on going.
00:03:00We're talking about some really significant things.
00:03:02So, that's probably part of the reason I don't think I did that great of a job.
00:03:07But that being said, I just didn't do a good enough job, period.
00:03:11It doesn't matter what it was.
00:03:13I don't really have anything else to blame it on.
00:03:15Hey, but before I take off on that, I had a surprise phone call yesterday, a surprise
00:03:24phone call.
00:03:24And I'm sure you have gotten your share of these from people in the hierarchy, people
00:03:32at headquarters.
00:03:34So, someone had given me Kathy Kinsey's phone number.
00:03:40Now, that's Bruce Kinsey's widow.
00:03:42That's Hobart Freeman's middle daughter.
00:03:47And, you know, in real time, you and I are talking during the week when we will have our
00:03:55meet and greet on Saturday of this week.
00:03:58By the time this airs, we will already be past that.
00:04:01But in real time, we're on Wednesday leading up to our meet and greet in Warsaw, Indiana
00:04:06on Saturday, the end of this week.
00:04:08And I had called Kathy.
00:04:12I just got her voicemail.
00:04:13I just left her a one-minute message saying, hey, Kathy, this is Chinno, telling her a little
00:04:19my history with her former husband, Bruce, that whenever Bruce was getting ready to leave
00:04:26Faith Assembly, he found me as an ally.
00:04:29So, we had some communication.
00:04:31He sent me a letter and said, here are the reasons why I'm leaving Faith Assembly and
00:04:37not following Dr. Freeman anymore.
00:04:40And I just wondered if, you know, Kathy would be willing.
00:04:42I said, I'm just wondering if you have any interest, if you'd be willing to talk with me,
00:04:46chat with me at all.
00:04:47It was a minute phone call.
00:04:49About three hours later, my phone rings.
00:04:52I looked down, and it's Kathy Kinsey.
00:04:56And it was a three-minute and 33-second phone call.
00:05:01You know, I time-stamped it all and tried to quickly make notations of what was being said.
00:05:08But she called to say she had heard my message, and she called to warn me, to warn me of speaking
00:05:18against God's man five times in the conversation.
00:05:24I mean, it was really sad to listen to someone this age five times to warn me about what I
00:05:34was doing, and this was God's man, and he followed, my father followed Jesus 100% of
00:05:41the way, and she's definitely aware of the podcast, because I could tell from some of
00:05:47the comments that she's made, either she's heard bits and pieces of ones that you and
00:05:52I have done, or other people have told her.
00:05:55But she said, she made this comment.
00:05:57She said, these people out there are just babies, and they don't know all that my dad
00:06:03taught, and they haven't heard all the message.
00:06:05They're just babies, and you're putting things in their head that you shouldn't be putting
00:06:10in their head.
00:06:12So it was a three-minute and 33-second monologue.
00:06:18I didn't interrupt her.
00:06:20One time when she made a comment, because I had said in my message to her, I really wish
00:06:26your husband was still alive today.
00:06:28I would love to talk to Bruce.
00:06:29And so at one point of her response to me, she said something about Bruce had been in
00:06:38a really dark place, but before Bruce died, which he did in 2008, which we talked about
00:06:46on two earlier podcasts.
00:06:47She said he came back to the Lord, or he was close to the Lord, or something.
00:06:52And I said, I'm really glad to hear that.
00:06:54And then her monologue continued.
00:06:58And when she got to the end, I thought it was the end.
00:07:02I had not interrupted because I wanted her to say whatever she wanted to say, but I had
00:07:07hoped that once she said what she wanted to say, it's normally the way conversations occur.
00:07:13Person A speaks, and person B, then person A, and then person B.
00:07:17So when she got to the end, I said, well, Kathy, I want to say I really appreciate you calling
00:07:23me back.
00:07:23And I thought somewhere along there, you know, there'd be a pause, and there'd be a chance
00:07:27for me to say something.
00:07:28But all I heard was click.
00:07:31I mean, there was no goodbye.
00:07:33And you know, when I got off the phone call, I said to myself, where is this normal?
00:07:40Under what circumstances does a woman in her late 70s call a man, give him a three and a
00:07:49half minute monologue, and then just hang up?
00:07:54I mean, who behaves in this way?
00:07:57It reminds me, and I hate to say it, but it reminds me of something you do in the seventh
00:08:01grade, you know, in middle school, when you have a little tiff with a playmate out on the
00:08:08playground, because they got your boyfriend or your girlfriend, and you're mad at them,
00:08:13and you call them up, and you say, well, I'm not going to be your friend, and I'm going
00:08:15to collect all my marbles, and I'm going to go back home, and I'm not going to play
00:08:19with you anymore, and then you hang up on them, you know?
00:08:22And I don't mean that in any rude way towards her, but I'm sorry.
00:08:28I have to ask myself, who behaves in this way?
00:08:33It's so immature and so childish.
00:08:35But I have to say, she learned from the best.
00:08:40You know, her father hid behind a pulpit and was able to prophesy against people and threaten
00:08:46people and say all these things, but he was a complete coward when it came to actually talking
00:08:53to anybody face to face.
00:08:55So I'm sure you've had these kind of conversations.
00:09:00Cult people are famous for this.
00:09:02They simply, I don't know, John, they lack the, we know all critical thinking is gone
00:09:08out of their mind.
00:09:09We know they lack the ability to engage in a conversation.
00:09:14You know, it's like the blood of Jesus against you.
00:09:18I might get a demon.
00:09:19I might be deceived if I even listen to anything you have to say.
00:09:23So in a high-pitched, fearful, kind of rapid, kind of empty, hollow sound, it just reminds
00:09:33you of someone who's been under mind control, who doesn't have that flexibility, who doesn't
00:09:39have the ability to catch nuances and ask questions and inquire and verify and, you know,
00:09:47did you really mean this by what you said?
00:09:49It's just, they got to get it all out and boom, hang that phone up before a demon comes
00:09:56through the line and possesses you.
00:09:58And I'm sure you've had some conversations like that.
00:10:00I've had more than my fair share.
00:10:03Let's say it simply.
00:10:04You know, it used to bother me.
00:10:06And not just in telephone conversations, but I'll often get emails that are like this.
00:10:13I'll, you know, read through the email and the email is worded in such a way, like you
00:10:18said, where it deserves a response.
00:10:21They open the door for dialogue and then I'll get to the end of it and realize that either
00:10:26A, they didn't give me a respond email address or B, they gave me a fake email address that
00:10:31it's going to bounce when I send it.
00:10:33And I'll go through this heartfelt response, you know, trying to be open and honest as I
00:10:38can.
00:10:38And when the email comes back to me rejected, I'm like, oh man, I just wasted, I wasted
00:10:44brain cycles unnecessarily, right?
00:10:47And it used to really bother me until I, until I started studying psychology and understanding
00:10:53how the cult mindset works.
00:10:56We've talked about it before, but inwardly you have this authentic person that always
00:11:01exists.
00:11:02Even if you're in a cult, the mind control will create a cult identity that forms in your
00:11:07mind.
00:11:08And whenever you engage that person in any way that challenges their indoctrination,
00:11:15the cult identity surfaces.
00:11:17But the problem is this is like a split personality disorder.
00:11:21You've got person A who's the cult identity, person B who is their real authentic self.
00:11:26The development of the cult identity doesn't always match the development of the actual person.
00:11:32So they may seem like they're seven years old.
00:11:34They may act like they're seven years old because literally the cult identity has never
00:11:38matured.
00:11:39And you have to look at it like this.
00:11:41Once you begin to understand it, you instead, you start to feel sorry for them because they
00:11:47really can't help.
00:11:48They don't even know that this is a problem in their head.
00:11:51They don't realize this cult identity.
00:11:52And after they escape, they're like, what in the world?
00:11:57It's like I had a symbiote inside my body that was taking over my mouth.
00:12:02Yeah.
00:12:03And I can remember these kinds of conversations.
00:12:06Honestly, I can remember them from 40 years ago.
00:12:08If I had tried to talk to any faith assembly minister 40 years ago, it was just pleading the
00:12:16blood of Jesus.
00:12:17And, you know, they couldn't listen to you.
00:12:19But it's interesting.
00:12:20It's almost like, you know, they do have this split approach because if they are talking
00:12:27and they're happy to talk to a cult member like a Jehovah's Witness or Christian science,
00:12:32they love debating and arguing with them because they're going to get their Bible out and prove
00:12:38to those people how they're in a cult.
00:12:39But if you ever get your Bible out and try to prove to them that they're in a cult, oh,
00:12:45they don't want to have anything to do with it.
00:12:47You know, so it's like a it's like a double standard that they really operate with.
00:12:51They are happy to talk about other cults and expose other cults and even engage with cult
00:12:59people that by their definition would be a cult member because they want to share what
00:13:06in their opinion is the truth of God's word with them and they will turn to passages.
00:13:12But if you say, hey, I would like to challenge or discuss anyway, your understanding of Mark
00:13:2111, 24, Mark 11, 22 to 24 or Hebrews 11, 1 or Romans 10, 17 or Romans 14, 23 B or any
00:13:29of these passages that were famous with Hobart, oh, no, do they want to engage on that with
00:13:37you on that?
00:13:37Not at all.
00:13:39They just cut you off.
00:13:40No, I wasn't mad at her at all.
00:13:42I felt sorry for her.
00:13:44And I think you're totally right, John, probably in other parts of these people's lives.
00:13:48They function more or less normally, socially acceptable.
00:13:53But man, when it comes to talking about their cult leader, whoa, man, I mean, they defend
00:14:01their cult leader.
00:14:02They defend their cult leader more diligently than they defend Jesus.
00:14:07In other words, if you were talking to someone who doesn't even believe in Jesus, who denies
00:14:13his deity, they're willing to engage with that person to kind of to try to prove that they're
00:14:18wrong, that Jesus is God.
00:14:20So they will they'll engage when it comes to Jesus.
00:14:26But if it comes to their cult leader, their cult leader is like the most important person
00:14:32in their pantheon of beings.
00:14:36And if you say anything about their cult leader, I just think it it it just strikes them so profoundly
00:14:44because they are the very ones, you know, we know who have heard for so long, touch not my
00:14:51anointed and do my prophets no harm.
00:14:54That stuff was just hammered and hammered and hammered into them.
00:14:58And so as I listen to Kathy speak, I just it's you know, I couldn't see her.
00:15:03So I don't I can't accuse her of glazed eyes.
00:15:06But I just hear this hollow, empty, just repetitious, a lack of sensitivity to nuances
00:15:15and to being able to have an a normal adult discussion between two adult people over a
00:15:23topic that you may disagree over.
00:15:25Um, but hey, welcome to life.
00:15:28You know, there are a lot of people that we disagree with about a lot of things that doesn't
00:15:33keep me from being their friend.
00:15:35It doesn't keep me from engaging with them.
00:15:38I can remember telling my church years ago because we just never we never adopted that
00:15:45mentality of if you don't agree with us, we can't talk to you.
00:15:51We never had that mentality.
00:15:53What I always tried to explain to the people in my church was this.
00:15:57You should be willing to engage with anyone about anything because I can see two scenarios
00:16:05and both of them will be good.
00:16:07Either this person that you're engaging with actually ends up being right in the argument,
00:16:12in the debate, in the discussion.
00:16:14And you have the privilege of learning and changing your view.
00:16:17The other option is you figure out after all of this discussion that they are wrong and
00:16:23you're, you walk away confirmed in your own belief.
00:16:27So either way you win, you either walk away confirmed in your own belief or you walk away
00:16:33having been convinced by the logic, by the scriptural background of this other person's argument.
00:16:41So, I mean, what is there to fear?
00:16:43But it's this boogeyman thing.
00:16:45I mean, something bad is going to happen if you listen to someone.
00:16:49I've never believed that.
00:16:51And so consequently, I think, John, in places in my life where I've been wrong in the past,
00:16:56and I was wrong following Dr. Freeman, but because I was willing to look at the other side,
00:17:03you can always reject it.
00:17:05Just take the time to look at the other side, listen, understand not a strong man view of their
00:17:12position, but really understand their position.
00:17:16And hey, at the end of the day, if it doesn't hold water in your mind, you're always free to reject it.
00:17:22And then what has happened, you've kind of learned your opponent's arguments,
00:17:25and you're even the stronger in your own position.
00:17:28But, you know, as I said, there are many times where I was able to change my position
00:17:33because I was willing to listen to what another person had to say,
00:17:38or in some theological textbook I'm reading, I'm listening and reading and processing the arguments.
00:17:46And I go, you know what?
00:17:47What he's saying is absolutely right, and there's no way I can get around it.
00:17:52He is right.
00:17:53And so I just have to change my position.
00:17:56So it involves some humility, some integrity, some honesty, and those are things that we should all cherish.
00:18:04Well, you know, it goes back to psychology.
00:18:06So if you are in a non-cult healthy church and the pastor is saying something that's false,
00:18:13if somebody outside comes into that church, sits to the service with you,
00:18:17and then goes home with you and says, you know, your pastor said X, Y, and Z, and they're completely wrong.
00:18:23When they're not entertaining this, when they're not in this cult mindset,
00:18:28and they don't have that cult identity, they would simply say, oh, is he really?
00:18:32And then they would go look it up because the attack isn't against them.
00:18:36It would be against the pastor.
00:18:38And so they're seeing it.
00:18:40They're disconnected.
00:18:40You're attacking their pastor.
00:18:42You're not attacking them.
00:18:43But when you've been indoctrinated with the cult identity, you become one with the cult leader because that identity is in you.
00:18:50So whenever they challenge the cult leader, they're actually challenging your person as a cult member because that's inside of you.
00:18:57And interestingly, as it relates to this discussion here, I don't know if you've read the book The Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin.
00:19:07Walter Martin, yes.
00:19:08It's a great book if you haven't read it.
00:19:10But I followed him extensively whenever I first left just to understand what a cult was.
00:19:18It's not that I'm a huge Walter Martin fan or not.
00:19:22He's just another figure in the kingdom of the cult research.
00:19:26But I was watching with interest his definition of what it means to be in a cult, some of which I disagree with.
00:19:35I'll say that up front.
00:19:36But where it got interesting is he started investigating the United Pentecostal Church, the oneness churches, etc.
00:19:44And there was this big conference that he got in where he is actually debating and he's talking with different people who are in the oneness faith.
00:19:52And he's trying to understand is oneness Pentecostalism, is it a cult, and do they oppose Trinitarianism in the same way that a cult mindset, like what we're describing here, would they attack it as though it's their identity versus just simply answering questions?
00:20:11And I can't remember the names of the people involved, but these were leaders in, I think, the UPCI different groups.
00:20:19Their responses were exactly what you're describing from Kathy and what I have seen with the other cults.
00:20:27And his conclusion, I can't remember if it's in Kingdom of the Cults, but I know it was in one of the documentary videos that I watched.
00:20:34His conclusion was that they had the cult mindset and they had disfellowshipped any other Christian, could not even consider them to be Christian if they didn't accept their views on the Godhead.
00:20:48And so he labeled the entire thing as a cult.
00:20:50I don't know if I would go so far as to label it that, but if I base my reaction on the responses that he got, which also match what you just described, it's very much like a cult.
00:21:03I think one of the things that people can learn from these podcasts are not only when we come upon a particular point that we want to make, which today will be a little more on the Trinity and Hobart's view on the Godhead, but it's also just witnessing how you go about untangling these things and logically discussing these things.
00:21:29So, for instance, I always say, and I've been saying this, I teach this weekly study on the book of Revelation.
00:21:35So we're looking at, we're in chapter seven, we're looking at verse by verse, but I always tell the people, not only are we looking at verse by verse, but we're trying to understand what does, you know, the fourth verse of Revelation chapter seven mean.
00:21:49Not only do we really focus on the actual content of verse, but by our discussion of it, it shows what your hermeneutic is that you would use on any passage of the Bible.
00:22:01And I think these, these kinds of podcasts do the same thing.
00:22:05Not only are we talking about a specific issue, but we're looking at the broader issue of how do you disagree with someone else?
00:22:16And how do you converse and how do you have a conversation?
00:22:20Of course, some people just don't.
00:22:22It's a monologue, but that's not very smart.
00:22:26It's very immature and childish.
00:22:28It doesn't get you anywhere.
00:22:30And Lord knows, you know, if I'm wrong about something, please engage with me over it so I can learn about it.
00:22:37These people won't engage.
00:22:38They'll just pour things on you and, and then quickly run.
00:22:41So anyway, enough on that back to the Trinity where I don't know that I did a good enough job last time.
00:22:48So what I'm really after here.
00:22:50So let me put out a couple of goals.
00:22:52My goals in talking about this, because it definitely ties into Branhamism and to the whole business of parts of the charismatic movement.
00:23:03My first goal is I wanted to explain to people, document Hobart's transition from orthodoxy to heterodoxy.
00:23:13And my second goal was to show whenever he made that transition and his he was making an attempt to improve on orthodoxy.
00:23:23I think he failed and I think he made matters actually worse.
00:23:26So first of all, his transition from orthodoxy to heterodoxy, and I'm not going to reread things we looked at last time, but coming from a Southern Baptist background to begin with, and then a Grace Brethren denominational background after that, Dr. Freeman was definitely orthodox in his view on, I'll use the word, the Godhead.
00:23:51The members of the Godhead, because when you say Trinity, of course, that does bother some people.
00:23:58So whomever you're making God, it's often referred to as the Godhead.
00:24:04Then Dr. Freeman was orthodox there.
00:24:07He felt, he believed, as the church has taught for hundreds of years, that God was one in essence.
00:24:15He was immutable.
00:24:16He was eternal.
00:24:17He was unchangeable, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, they're co-eternal, they're co-unchangeable, they're co-immutable.
00:24:27So he believed that God was one in essence, and God was three in person.
00:24:33And in his little booklet that he wrote when he founded his church and his home in Winona Lake in 1963,
00:24:41he wrote out the creed, and that was the creed, in essence, that God was one in those senses in which I just described, but he was three in person.
00:24:53In 1966, when Hobart Freeman went up to Chicago, and in March of that year, he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and joined the charismatic Pentecostal movement,
00:25:09then he became even more critical of everything that the denominations had taught.
00:25:21He was already critical before, but he was a Brethren.
00:25:24He never renounced being a Brethren when, or not prior to 66, even when his church became charismatic, it was still the Brethren Church in Winona Lake.
00:25:36He didn't change the name of it or change their identity or their affiliation.
00:25:40Even though they were now charismatic, it was still a Brethren Church.
00:25:46But he had always been critical, and as his life went on, he became so critical.
00:25:51He became so critical that if anything was even taught by a denomination, then by association, there had to be a flaw in it.
00:26:01He just hated the denominations, and he was critical of everything they taught.
00:26:08So it's not a surprise to me, knowing that's kind of how Hobart thought, that whenever he was introduced to Branhamism,
00:26:18and he had some contact in northern Indiana with some oneness Pentecostal people, that he became enamored with Branham.
00:26:28He always said Branham was God's prophet.
00:26:30And so when Branham would teach on the occasions that he did teach oneness, I just think that in Hobart's mind, he felt there has to be something here.
00:26:43He already was anti-denomination, so they teach God is one in essence and three in person.
00:26:49Hobart came to think, well, there's no way that can be right because that's the denominational view, quote unquote.
00:26:55And so when he heard oneness and people teaching oneness, he became enamored with it,
00:27:01and he was fascinated with this subject of the baptism in water in Jesus' name.
00:27:07So fascinated, as I documented last time, he wrestled with that question of the formula for baptism for six years.
00:27:17He was not baptized in Jesus' name in 1966 or 67 or 68 or 69.
00:27:23He wrestled with that for six years.
00:27:25He knew somehow all of this is tied in to your view on the Godhead in his mind.
00:27:33And it wasn't until six years later, 1972, that he fasted and prayed in a motel room for three days.
00:27:41And he said God gave him the revelation of the baptism in Jesus' name.
00:27:46And we talked last time about another man that he had met who had a 40-day fast.
00:27:52And at the end of 40 days and 40 nights of fasting, he was given, this other minister, he was given a revelation of the Godhead that was beyond anything that could be communicated.
00:28:06Evidently, we're not up to date, John, by the way, on fasting because I saw from the comments that a lot of people said they've been on a 40-day fast.
00:28:15And I just flat out said I doubt this guy went on a 40-day fast.
00:28:20I will have to say I wasn't there, so I don't know.
00:28:23And I'm definitely not going to tell the people that said I fasted 40 days if they haven't.
00:28:27If they have, they have.
00:28:29I do want to make sure by fast, I mean fast.
00:28:33And that means water, but nothing else.
00:28:35No fruit juices, no supplements, no vitamins.
00:28:38That's not the kind of fast I would be talking about.
00:28:41It might be some type of fast.
00:28:43But when I say fast, I mean nothing except water.
00:28:47And if people have done it for 40 days, who am I to say they haven't?
00:28:52I'm in full agreement.
00:28:53I know I haven't.
00:28:54I think three days is the maximum for me.
00:28:57So when Hobart's got his orthodox view and now he's heard some oneness teaching, then what he wants to do is synthesize or conflate these two views.
00:29:12God one in essence, God three in person to simply God is kind of one, period, because he was hearing oneness people accuse Trinitarians of tritheism.
00:29:25The oneness people will say, if you've ever talked with one, you'll hear them say this, that you Trinitarians, you believe in three gods.
00:29:34And Hobart agreed with that.
00:29:37Hobart did not like the word Trinity, even though he does use it and he does say it is an okay word.
00:29:44He doesn't like the word because I gave you this quote last time when he was teaching on the Godhead to Faith Assembly.
00:29:54Here's a statement he would often make.
00:29:56He would say, and I'm almost quoting, can you think of God in any other way than three?
00:30:04No, he would say, that's what the denominations have taught you, that God is three.
00:30:12God is not three.
00:30:13God is one.
00:30:14That's almost a quote of what he often said.
00:30:17So he, you can tell there is, there's confusion in his mind.
00:30:22He knows I cannot reject the distinctions between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
00:30:29We see them at Jesus' baptism.
00:30:31We see that elsewhere.
00:30:32He knew enough about the Bible, he couldn't do that, but he was afraid to simply reject what he was hearing from the oneness people.
00:30:44And so on one tape, teaching on the Godhead, he said oneness is not heresy.
00:30:51On another tape, entitled Eternal Personifications in the Godhead, he said it is heresy.
00:31:00Both of those tapes, both of those messages are online, and for some reason, we're somewhere shortly after the four-minute time stamp.
00:31:08That's all you've got to do on both of them.
00:31:10Start at four minutes and listen.
00:31:12And one of them, he says oneness is heresy.
00:31:15On another one, he said oneness is not heresy.
00:31:19Well, what is it?
00:31:21I mean, oneness in its truest form, as you alluded to earlier, maybe everything that UPC people believe is not heresy, but oneness in its purest form is definitely heresy.
00:31:35It would have been rejected by any of the church councils, even though they were not dealing with the Trinity per se.
00:31:42The Trinity did come up, and it would have been rejected by any of the early councils.
00:31:49So, and you know something else, and I'll pause and give you a chance, Sean.
00:31:54When I talk about, when Hobart talks about heresy, this is another fascinating thing with Hobart.
00:32:03He would say, whenever heresy came up, he would say, now heresy, according to 2 John, the little epistle of 2 John, heresy is anything that has to do with the doctrine of Christ.
00:32:15And I've had people bring that back to me when I would say, well, Hobart was teaching something heretical, and it would be in some other area, like Manifested Sons.
00:32:25That's a heretical teaching.
00:32:27They'd say, oh, no, heresy only has to do with the doctrine of Christ.
00:32:31Well, that's just what they're parroting again from Hobart.
00:32:35But, you know, if you deny the reality or the personality of the Holy Spirit, that's a heresy.
00:32:41If you deny, I mean, pick your doctrines.
00:32:43If you deny the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, that's a heresy.
00:32:50If you deny the eternal bliss of the righteous, that's a heresy.
00:32:55You know, a heresy is any kind of weighty issue.
00:32:57It's not, what's your view on the date of the minor prophet Obadiah?
00:33:04Some Old Testament scholars will date Obadiah in the 9th century B.C., and others will date him after the fall of Jerusalem in 586.
00:33:13That's a matter of opinion.
00:33:15There's a lot of scholarly debate.
00:33:17No one is going to be able to conclusively resolve the date of the little 21-verse Old Testament book on Obadiah.
00:33:26That's not a heresy.
00:33:27Whatever you think.
00:33:28Unless you think it was written last week, that would probably be heretical.
00:33:32Other than that, that's an opinion.
00:33:34But all of these other things, oh, it doesn't have to just do with the doctrine of Christ.
00:33:41Any significant doctrine within the Christian faith, if you hold a heterodox view on it, then you're a heretic.
00:33:50That is for sure.
00:33:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:34:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:34:12On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:34:25You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:34:32If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:34:39And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:34:45On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:34:50You know, you mentioned the fasting, and I saw the same comment that you did.
00:34:55If you go back to the episode, we were talking about Franklin Hall, and Hall is one of the people who started advocating for this 40-day fast.
00:35:04So it's not that people can't do it.
00:35:08Hall was doing it, and people were getting sick, and I'm almost positive I read that people were dying from doing this.
00:35:14And if you think of what fasting is, when you fast, your body starts to consume itself.
00:35:20So when you have extra weight, extra fat, that's how you lose weight so fast.
00:35:23If you're a heavyset person, you can absolutely fast for 40 days.
00:35:28But someone as skinny as you, Chino, I don't know that you would last for 40 days.
00:35:33So it's not that they would die, by and large, but it is a very, very unhealthy thing to do.
00:35:40And if you look at the lifestyles of the people that lived in the ancient world, they sometimes went for days without food just because they were hunter-gatherers or there was no food to be had.
00:35:52During those times, if they were to try to fast for 40 days, they might not have made it.
00:35:57I think that was the point I was trying to make.
00:35:59But with regards to the Trinity, this was something that was very problematic for me when I left the message.
00:36:08So for 37 years, I was indoctrinated with Oneness Pentecostalism.
00:36:13Branham's twist, I should say, on Oneness Pentecostalism.
00:36:15And so I was fully programmed with every one of the verses, and there are many, that Oneness Pentecostals use to define their version of the Godhead.
00:36:29I knew it.
00:36:29I believed it.
00:36:30In fact, I was still of that mindset for quite a few years after leaving.
00:36:35And I watched the Dr. Martin videos on, you know, his position against the Oneness Pentecostals.
00:36:44That's where it gets interesting.
00:36:46I was out of the cult mindset.
00:36:47I no longer had the cult identity.
00:36:49I disagreed with his position on the Trinity at the time I watched it.
00:36:54Yet, at the same time, I was open to listening to what he said, because I did not have that cult identity.
00:37:00And I listened, and his argument, while it may have been good and everybody may support it,
00:37:05it wasn't enough to sway me from believing what I had believed, because I believed it for years and I knew all the verses.
00:37:12And his argument and position wasn't really enough to change me.
00:37:16But it wasn't until I started studying the early church, and then I began to realize that every argument made against the Trinitarian doctrine,
00:37:28every argument was made either an outright lie or misrepresenting facts and misrepresenting truths.
00:37:35Because if you go back and you study all of the different views of the Godhead, which was emerging and forming and evolving even during the days that the Bible was being written,
00:37:47that's why you really don't find a standard definition, this is what the Trinity is in the Bible.
00:37:52They were forming their basis of understanding God when the Bible was written.
00:37:57The early church fathers were facing things like modalism, which is the idea that modalists will often use your finger.
00:38:05God is like your finger, the father's the first segment, then you have Jesus the second, then you have the Holy Spirit the third.
00:38:11Modalism was condemned as heresy, I want to change that word, not heresy, but condemned as wrong by the early church fathers.
00:38:19And some of the early church councils, I think you can find the modalistic debate.
00:38:25Heresy is an interesting word, because as the religion is being formed, the theology is being formed, you really didn't have heresy.
00:38:34What you had was instead proto-Orthodoxy.
00:38:37You had the ideas that would develop into Orthodox beliefs of Christianity, and you had men who were standing up and saying,
00:38:44no, this can't be, because we have this whole collection of the Bible, and the idea that you're pushing on this view on the Godhead,
00:38:52while it may support some passages of Scripture, it can't support the whole of Scripture.
00:38:59That argument, the whole of Scripture, is what really started to change my opinion on the subject.
00:39:04Then I got into the councils, I think I mentioned last time, Branham and others, especially in the Klan when they were fighting the Catholic Church,
00:39:14would say things like the Trinitarian doctrine was formed because of the Council of Nicaea, which is absolute nonsense.
00:39:21It was actually formed to fight what was, by then I think it was becoming deemed as heresy.
00:39:28But you have the early Church Fathers were condemning any doctrine that tried to say that there were not three distinct persons in the Godhead.
00:39:38And they went back and referenced passages of Scripture that I was familiar with that had been slightly twisted with a Oneness Pentecostal stint.
00:39:47And the one that really pushed me over the edge was trying to understand that there's a scene in the Bible that Jesus declares,
00:39:55if you ask the Father, He will send you a Helper who will lead you and guide you into all truth.
00:40:03That Helper, as we know, is the Spirit.
00:40:05When you think of that scene, you can't have – one of the Oneness Pentecostal verses is,
00:40:11I and the Father are one.
00:40:13Well, you cannot have that if He's saying that this other figure, who is the Father, is going to send it
00:40:19without taking the manifested sons of God approach.
00:40:23This was a human being.
00:40:24Jesus was not a deity.
00:40:26He was not divine.
00:40:27I'm going to ignore all of the Scriptures that say that Jesus was divine.
00:40:32And I'm going to say that He was a human vessel that contained the manifestation of God.
00:40:38That's what Branhamism taught.
00:40:40That's what Hobart was building his theology from, you know, as this is developing.
00:40:46But yet to do this, to understand this and believe this, you really had to object to certain passages of Scripture.
00:40:54And I reached a point in all of my journey where I just simply could not reject what I was being told I must reject.
00:41:00And this is what I said earlier in this podcast, John, is this is not a theological podcast.
00:41:08Yours is a historical one.
00:41:09So it's not the place.
00:41:12We don't have the time and opportunity to delve into this too deeply.
00:41:16And I'm simply trying to show how Hobart evolved from one position to the other.
00:41:21But you're exactly right.
00:41:23After the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, which was an important council when they were trying to decide what are the grounds for acceptance into the Christian church and who can sit at the table.
00:41:40You know, there was a Jewish Gentile on table situation there.
00:41:43Then we didn't have a council until Nicaea in 325.
00:41:47And in the 4th and 5th century, we had, you know, four or five big councils.
00:41:53But the councils, because the Bible is not and never was intended by God to be a textbook on theology, it is a collection of prophecies and letters and poems and all kinds of things given by God the Holy Spirit from, you know, early times until the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation.
00:42:14And it's not systematized and, you know, you don't have in chapter 14, verse 17, a definition of the Trinity.
00:42:24You don't have a definition for really anything.
00:42:27And that's the beauty of Scripture and the nature of Scripture.
00:42:32It takes time and effort and diligence and study to synthesize and come up with what you think is the right position on doctrine A, B, and C.
00:42:47And you described your own journey there perfectly.
00:42:49You don't have to reject everything you've ever been taught today.
00:42:54You don't have to reject it tomorrow.
00:42:55You have to take your time.
00:42:58I mean, everybody's been taught things by other people.
00:43:02And it's time to make up your own mind what you believe.
00:43:05And you've got all the time in the world to do that.
00:43:07You know, you're not under any deadline at all.
00:43:10But cults will put you under a deadline and they will force you.
00:43:13You have to believe what we believe.
00:43:15Faith Assembly was like that.
00:43:16You know, you believe what we believe or it's our way or the highway.
00:43:20Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
00:43:21That's not the way you treat any other fellow human being.
00:43:26You let them come to their own conclusion.
00:43:30And yeah, if you are feeling you're a pastor or Bible teacher, it's your responsibility to teach us the Bible.
00:43:37Do it to the best of your ability.
00:43:40And then after you've done that, guess what?
00:43:42And now it's all up to us.
00:43:44Now it's up to us to use the best of our ability to decide, did what that guy just tell me is that right or is that wrong?
00:43:51You know, there's no blanket approval on anything and no blanket requirement to approve anything.
00:43:59It's simply up to the people.
00:44:01So in those first few centuries, what caused the councils, they weren't saying, you know, let's sit down and figure out something about the Trinity.
00:44:11What always calls any of the councils was when someone came along espousing a view and it was a person who had a lot of clout, like Arius did, who was one of the leaders in the church in Alexandria, Egypt, who was teaching Arianism in the early fourth century, which was the cause for Nicaea.
00:44:32When a person with a lot of clout came on the scene and began to teach something that sounded, even though it was new and novel, that sounded like this might not be supported by the biblical record, then arguments, debates, discussions were had.
00:44:51And then finally a council was called and Nicaea was that council in 325.
00:44:56And the early councils, I think I can say this about all of them.
00:45:01There was Nicaea in 325, there was Constantinople in 381, Ephesus in 431, and Chalcedon in 451, and then there were some others after that.
00:45:13Those were the first early big councils.
00:45:17They were all called under consideration of what I just said.
00:45:22Someone is teaching something new.
00:45:24This person has a lot of sway.
00:45:25It doesn't sound right.
00:45:27Let's convene the theologians of the day, and let's discuss this and see where we end up.
00:45:35And those councils all had to do with Jesus.
00:45:40Because here's the thing with Christianity.
00:45:42Jesus is the central figure of the New Testament.
00:45:46He is the central figure of Christianity.
00:45:49We carry his name, Christians, from Jesus Christ.
00:45:53And the New Testament does not give a systematic theology.
00:45:59We see him being born of a virgin.
00:46:02We see him in Luke's gospel growing in knowledge and in favor with God and with man.
00:46:08How is that possible?
00:46:10How can that statement in Luke's gospel be made about Jesus that he grew in favor with not only man, but with God as well?
00:46:19So the early councils had to do with who is Jesus?
00:46:24How does he relate to what everyone believed and knew existed, God the Father?
00:46:32Is he God the Father?
00:46:34Is he less than God the Father?
00:46:36Is he equal to God the Father?
00:46:38They all had to do with Jesus.
00:46:41What is his relationship with God, if I can put it like that?
00:46:45And I believe Jesus was God and is God.
00:46:48But what was his relationship with God?
00:46:51And also the other thing the councils were talking about were the two natures of Christ.
00:46:55He's the only being who is one person with two natures.
00:47:00He has a divine and he has a human nature.
00:47:02And those things are not easy to discuss at all.
00:47:08They're not clearly stated in the Bible.
00:47:11You have to combine a number of passages in a scriptural and in a logical way.
00:47:19And that's what the councils were all about.
00:47:21And so there was not a council.
00:47:24Nicaea was not about let's figure out the doctrine of the Trinity.
00:47:28It was who is Jesus and is he God or is he somehow less than God?
00:47:34Then when you start talking about that issue, then I think the next council in Constantinople
00:47:41in 381, well, there is another figure that we need to talk about.
00:47:48And we see him throughout Old and New Testament.
00:47:52And that is called the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.
00:47:56So is that something that is distinct from the Father and the Son or not?
00:48:01And then you begin having some discussions of, well, what is the Godhead?
00:48:08And they never said, OK, here's our definition of the Trinity.
00:48:11They simply went on to explain who and what they felt God, the Father, God, the Son and
00:48:18God, the Holy Spirit work.
00:48:20And it's not this is not easy stuff.
00:48:23This is not grade school material.
00:48:26These are these are matters that the early councils met for weeks and months about.
00:48:34And there was a lot of discussion and debate, which I wish we could have today, but nobody
00:48:40will do it.
00:48:41It's just I'm in my cult and you're in your cult and never the twain shall meet where
00:48:47we should be able to say, let's talk about this openly, honestly and fairly.
00:48:53And then if if at the end of the council, we just can't agree and we just can't agree,
00:49:00but people won't even make an effort today.
00:49:02And I wish they would.
00:49:04Absolutely.
00:49:04It's usually an us versus them mentality when you're in the cults.
00:49:08And to his credit, I think Dr. Martin was trying to point that out and trying to say
00:49:13that it it has become us versus them in the oneness faith.
00:49:17And that that was his main point.
00:49:19And I also wish I could find that video.
00:49:21I've had people ask me for it because I have mentioned it a few times.
00:49:24This is something that I found just stumbled upon it back in 2012.
00:49:29So it's not not anything that I saved or bought.
00:49:32So I don't have it.
00:49:33But it is interesting when you think of that mindset.
00:49:36But for me, it's fascinating to understand how the history evolved.
00:49:40You find these people in modern day cults claiming that they're speaking divinely by God.
00:49:46They're basically trying to describe themselves in the same way that anybody else would describe Jesus.
00:49:51And that's why whenever you question them, they say, well, people questioned Jesus, too, when Jesus was alive.
00:49:58And you have to understand that's not the same thing, right?
00:50:01This is a human being.
00:50:02That's Jesus of the Bible.
00:50:04But that's the way that they have been programmed and manipulated, and you can't help it.
00:50:08But so as I went through this journey, like I said, I just came to understand that once you read the Bible for what it says
00:50:16and not read it for what the other guy is telling you that it says, it's really hard to deny some of the things,
00:50:22some of the arguments that are made in favor of the Trinity.
00:50:25And learning the history was significant.
00:50:28Learning how and why people in the cults have covered up that history is even more significant for me.
00:50:35And that's why I focus on history.
00:50:37If you can explain why they're covering things up, you can usually find their agenda and why their agenda is false.
00:50:43Yeah, and I totally agree with you on that, John.
00:50:46And this is not, as I said, a doctrinal podcast.
00:50:48What I'm trying to show is for Hobart Freeman's followers, Hobart Freeman did believe in the Trinity,
00:50:54although he always said, I prefer to say the triunity of God, because that unity from his oneness influenced by Branham was so important to him.
00:51:06He should have just accepted what the church has accepted for 1700 years.
00:51:11God is one in essence and three in person.
00:51:13But he simply couldn't do that.
00:51:15So he came up with his new, conflated, synthesized view of the Trinity, where he said,
00:51:21and everyone who followed Hobart has this memorized to this day, God.
00:51:26What is he?
00:51:27God is not what we think he is.
00:51:29He's what he reveals himself to be in Scripture.
00:51:32And here it is.
00:51:34God is one divine spirit, eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
00:51:41Everyone has that definition memorized.
00:51:45They feel so good about themselves because they can quote that.
00:51:49They didn't understand the Trinity any better because they memorized Hobart's little one sentence definition.
00:51:55But it made them feel good.
00:51:58Like, we don't believe in what the oneness people teach, and we don't believe in what the denominations teach.
00:52:03Oh, really?
00:52:05What is your conflation of that?
00:52:08How did you synthesize that?
00:52:09Well, we believe that God is one divine spirit, eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
00:52:15Okay.
00:52:16What do you mean by that?
00:52:18What do you mean by one?
00:52:20God is one?
00:52:22One spirit?
00:52:23Are we talking about mathematically or numerically or what are we talking about?
00:52:29Well, no, we're not talking about that.
00:52:33It's almost as though Hobart set something up where people could not engage conversationally once they had this definition in their mind.
00:52:43All they could think of God's one divine spirit, God's one divine spirit, God's one divine spirit, eternally manifested as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
00:52:51They thought, if I've said that, I've said it all, Augustine, Tertullian, the Apostle Paul, everybody would be proud of me if I can quote that definition.
00:53:01It made them feel good about themselves, but they didn't understand the Trinity any better, and it probably made things worse.
00:53:07Because Hobart, I'm telling you, you can hear this in his teaching, he wanted to hold on to that oneness.
00:53:17He did not want God to be three.
00:53:19He said, can you think of God in any other way than three?
00:53:24Can you, in your mind, he would tell his congregation, sit there and try to think.
00:53:29Can you think of God in any other way than three?
00:53:32He would say, no, he would tell you, that's what the denominations taught you, and God is not three, God is one.
00:53:40Well, I can think of God as three.
00:53:43When the Son prayed to the Father to send his people, the Holy Spirit, it sounds like it's okay for me in my mind to think of God as three.
00:53:56And Hobart believed that verse, John.
00:53:58He said, this is a verse against oneness.
00:54:01It's a verse against oneness, but he still wanted that unity.
00:54:07So he did not like the word Trinity.
00:54:09He wanted the word triunity.
00:54:11He thought he had come up with something new, the correct view of the Trinity.
00:54:17You're not going to improve on what Nicaea said and Constantinople and Ephesus and Chalcedon.
00:54:25You are not going to improve on that.
00:54:28And one little proof of how this makes people so confused is this story that I will give you and close with, or maybe we have more time.
00:54:40I don't know.
00:54:40I sat down not long ago, face-to-face with a couple of ex-ministers from Faith Assembly.
00:54:49If I mentioned their names, everyone would know them.
00:54:51We're not talking about some fringe minister in the Philippines.
00:54:55We're talking about Indiana, northern Indiana.
00:55:00And when I sat down to talk with them, they knew I had had some objections to Dr. Freeman.
00:55:08And I guess people somehow think that we just are opposed to his view on divine healing and no doctors or something.
00:55:16That's the one that will kill you if you hold on to that view.
00:55:19But there are so many other things about Dr. Freeman that were less than orthodox, maybe not heretical.
00:55:27Yeah, I would definitely say everything was not heretical, but it was less than orthodox.
00:55:31And so I mentioned, I said, well, to these two guys, I said, well, I think Dr. Freeman's definition of the Trinity, that God is one divine spirit who eternally manifests himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is not orthodox.
00:55:48That is a heterodox view.
00:55:51Oh, no, no, that's not.
00:55:53They wanted to argue over that.
00:55:55And I said, Hobart, in his teaching, ends up with a contradiction on your hands, confusion to say the least, contradiction to say the most.
00:56:06And you know what they said?
00:56:07They said, well, there are contradictory things that we just can't understand about God and Scripture.
00:56:14And I said, wait a minute.
00:56:15You made two different statements, a compound statement.
00:56:19One, you said they're contradictions.
00:56:21And then secondly, you said there are things we can't comprehend.
00:56:24Again, those are two different claims right there.
00:56:27And we have to understand those are two different claims.
00:56:30So I said, look, and there was a heated discussion over this until I was able to make my point.
00:56:36I said, look, if you go, if you sit through some formal classes on epistemology, which is simply a fancy word for the doctrine of knowledge, or you sit through some formal classes on logic,
00:56:47you're going to learn the law of non-contradiction, that something cannot be both A and non-A at the same time and in the same regard.
00:56:56And when I said that, one of these guys just started saying, Aristotelian, Aristotelian.
00:57:01And I knew what he meant, what he was meaning was, you are borrowing from Aristotle in Greek philosophy when you're trying to use logic.
00:57:10And I said, just because Aristotle and his compatriots came up with some formal definitions and explanations of things doesn't mean that he invented that any more than Sir Isaac Newton invented gravity.
00:57:30He didn't invent gravity.
00:57:32It was there all along.
00:57:33He just told us this is a name for it and this is how it works.
00:57:37And we all go, oh, yeah, now I understand.
00:57:40He didn't invent anything.
00:57:41It was already there.
00:57:43Aristotle didn't invent logic.
00:57:45It was already there.
00:57:47He just explained it.
00:57:49And so I told these guys, I said, look, there are three different words that we really need to define and understand.
00:57:55One is a contradiction.
00:57:57And a contradiction is a contradiction to me and to you as it is to God.
00:58:01In other words, if you hear someone say, hey, I just drew a round square, you want to see it?
00:58:08There's no such thing as a round square that doesn't exist because that is a contradiction.
00:58:14That is unintelligible.
00:58:18Always use the example of a mountain.
00:58:20You can't have a mountain without a valley.
00:58:22It's impossible.
00:58:23If everything was the same height, then it wouldn't be a mountain.
00:58:26You cannot have a mountain without a valley.
00:58:29To have one is to necessarily imply the existence of the other.
00:58:35So I said a contradiction is unintelligible.
00:58:39No things exist.
00:58:40A second word that we like to use and confound with others is the word paradox.
00:58:48A paradox is something that appears to be contradictory.
00:58:53But upon further study and reflection, we find out that it really isn't.
00:58:58And then the third word is mystery.
00:59:02Mystery means that there is something that we can't say that it doesn't exist,
00:59:09but we also can't explain or define it.
00:59:13And I said, are there mysteries about God?
00:59:16Well, of course there are.
00:59:17So for you to say God is incomprehensible, oh, I agree with, but that doesn't mean we can't
00:59:26comprehend some things about God.
00:59:29Can we comprehend God in his purest essence?
00:59:34Well, no, we're just created human beings.
00:59:37But let's don't call something a contradiction.
00:59:40And I said, I think where Hobart was headed was some type of contradiction where he wanted God.
00:59:48He truly, truly wanted God to be one in a sense more than essence.
00:59:55He wanted him to be one because of his belief in baptism in Jesus name and because of his influence by William Branham.
01:00:03He wanted him to be one, but he knew he couldn't believe in oneness because that's not right.
01:00:09So he also had to somehow hold to a threeness.
01:00:13And what I tried to explain to them is it's not that difficult to explain based on the law of contradiction
01:00:21where something cannot be both a and non a at the same time and in the same regard.
01:00:28God can be one in one sense and three in another.
01:00:34That's not a contradiction.
01:00:35That's saying he is one in these senses.
01:00:38And then you define and quantify what you mean by that.
01:00:43And God is three in this regard.
01:00:46But he can't be one and three at the same time and in the same relation.
01:00:53That would be a contradiction.
01:00:54And a contradiction is unintelligible and it simply doesn't exist either in our mind or in the mind of God.
01:01:03Well, like I said, it's this is a historical podcast.
01:01:06And I think you've mentioned that a few times, but just explaining my own journey might help somebody else and at least open their mind to be able to listen to the opposite opinion.
01:01:17Because I think whether the opposite opinion is correct or false, it's not hurtful if you if you listen to it and you may learn something that you didn't know, even from somebody who doesn't really who isn't really correct.
01:01:31They may have information that you didn't have.
01:01:33And so there's that Bible phrase, iron sharpens iron.
01:01:36I look at it like this.
01:01:38In fact, I enjoy I had a person who I won't tell which episode, but one of the episodes, they they got quite irate.
01:01:46They wanted to challenge everything.
01:01:47And I said, well, that's interesting.
01:01:49It'd be you'd be welcome on the podcast if you want to voice your opinion.
01:01:52Never heard back because usually that's the way the cult mindset works.
01:01:57But thank you so much for doing this.
01:01:59Yeah.
01:01:59Thanks for having me, John.
01:02:00And I appreciate it.
01:02:01If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the Web.
01:02:05You can find us at William dash Branham dot org.
01:02:07For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.
01:02:30And all the different再び 아니� heard from both, and we can read and uncle arose.
01:02:43So that's it.
01:02:45So that's it.
01:02:48We're like, right.
01:02:49We're like, people are in the house.
01:02:51So that's it.
01:02:52So that's it.
01:02:53You've been as simple as you want to do.
01:02:53We'll see you next time.
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