- 6 months ago
John and Charles discuss the origins, evolution, and impact of the Manifested Sons of God teaching, tracing its lineage from early movements through the Latter Rain era and into modern expressions within the New Apostolic Reformation. They compare the premillennial and amillennial branches of this belief, exploring how each integrates the doctrine into its end-times framework, and showing how it connects to related ideas such as fivefold ministry, positive confession, and kingdom theology. The conversation highlights the doctrine’s historical cycles of rapid growth, collapse, and reinvention, and examines how these cycles have led to authoritarian leadership models, theological distortions, and harmful consequences for followers.
They also reflect on their personal experiences within the movement, offering warnings about its adaptability and persistence over centuries. By examining key figures, organizations, and ideological shifts, they reveal how certain strands of this belief system intersected with racial theories, dominionist ambitions, and a tendency toward high-control structures. Throughout, they emphasize the importance of identifying and removing the underlying theological framework to break the repeating cycle of harm, encouraging listeners to pursue healthier spiritual paths free from manipulative systems.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Tracing Latter Rain to the New Apostolic Reformation
04:33 Variations of Manifested Sons of God Beliefs
07:32 Premillennial vs. Amillennial Schism
10:50 Amillennial Influence in the NAR
14:18 Christian Identity Roots and Early Influences
18:13 Early Latter Rain Teachings and Schisms
21:33 How the Ideology Creates Radical Behavior
23:54 British Israelism and Pentecostal Origins
26:21 Boom-and-Bust Cycles in History
30:05 Unlocking History Through Two Core Theologies
33:43 Evolution of Beliefs from Jane Leade to Today
36:37 Pursuit of the Last Day Revival
39:46 Pinky and the Brain Analogy for Manifested Sons of God
42:17 Root Cause: Ideology, Not Demons or Flesh
44:01 Premillennial vs. Amillennial Dangers
46:51 Harm and Responsibility in Leadership Failures
50:17 Avoiding Parallel Latter Rain Movements After Leaving the Message
52:05 Influence on Broader Christianity
54:23 Cult Structures and Layers of Commitment
55:36 Common Elements That Trap People
56:54 Prophecy Failure and Increased Radicalization
58:49 Sympathy for Those Trapped in the Ideology
1:00:05 Closing Remarks and Next Steps
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
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They also reflect on their personal experiences within the movement, offering warnings about its adaptability and persistence over centuries. By examining key figures, organizations, and ideological shifts, they reveal how certain strands of this belief system intersected with racial theories, dominionist ambitions, and a tendency toward high-control structures. Throughout, they emphasize the importance of identifying and removing the underlying theological framework to break the repeating cycle of harm, encouraging listeners to pursue healthier spiritual paths free from manipulative systems.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Tracing Latter Rain to the New Apostolic Reformation
04:33 Variations of Manifested Sons of God Beliefs
07:32 Premillennial vs. Amillennial Schism
10:50 Amillennial Influence in the NAR
14:18 Christian Identity Roots and Early Influences
18:13 Early Latter Rain Teachings and Schisms
21:33 How the Ideology Creates Radical Behavior
23:54 British Israelism and Pentecostal Origins
26:21 Boom-and-Bust Cycles in History
30:05 Unlocking History Through Two Core Theologies
33:43 Evolution of Beliefs from Jane Leade to Today
36:37 Pursuit of the Last Day Revival
39:46 Pinky and the Brain Analogy for Manifested Sons of God
42:17 Root Cause: Ideology, Not Demons or Flesh
44:01 Premillennial vs. Amillennial Dangers
46:51 Harm and Responsibility in Leadership Failures
50:17 Avoiding Parallel Latter Rain Movements After Leaving the Message
52:05 Influence on Broader Christianity
54:23 Cult Structures and Layers of Commitment
55:36 Common Elements That Trap People
56:54 Prophecy Failure and Increased Radicalization
58:49 Sympathy for Those Trapped in the Ideology
1:00:05 Closing Remarks and Next Steps
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Tw
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend,
00:00:47Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her, My People.
00:00:54Charles, I'm really excited for today, talking about one of the most interesting topics,
00:01:00as it relates to both what we came out of and the New Apostolic Reformation,
00:01:04and that is the manifested sons of God. I know that we've talked about it in various other episodes,
00:01:11but I think we need to take a deep dive so that people understand how and why the New Apostolic
00:01:18Reformation has developed into what it is, and also where it came from, how militant this is.
00:01:24I grew up, like I said, in this religion that had this as a theology. I'll be honest,
00:01:30until I left it, I really didn't understand what it was, and then once I did, I'm like,
00:01:35oh my gosh, I can't believe that we were in something that believed this.
00:01:39It's pretty interesting, John. You know, I'm kind of looking forward to today's episode, too.
00:01:44You know, in part, I'm looking forward to today's episode, John, because this is the last one we've got
00:01:48to talk about these guys for a while. If our listeners remember, this is kind of our fifth
00:01:54episode in an arc where we have been looking at the dots that connect from the latter reign up to
00:02:01the New Apostolic Reformation. And this whole second series of podcasts, John, we've been doing,
00:02:06I've just been going through my book, my second book, Chapter by Chapter, Come Out Over My People,
00:02:11Volume 2. And in Chapter 10, I specifically look at how the beliefs of, you know, that we shared in the
00:02:18message and originated in the latter reign, how those beliefs found their way into the New Apostolic
00:02:24Reformation and the movements in between and how to kind of line those dots up. And so today,
00:02:29we're kind of at the end of that arc. And if our listeners remember, we kind of traced that path
00:02:34from the latter reign movement, you had kind of three main branches, three senior branches that
00:02:40came out of the latter reign. One of those branches, the shepherding movement, played a role
00:02:45influencing the early Jesus people, and later the vineyard movement. And then within that movement,
00:02:51the vineyard movement, they invited in the Kansas City prophets and a whole other branch of the
00:02:57latter reign movement that had connections, deep connections to the message, and even the Sharon
00:03:01Orphanage Global Missions branch. And within vineyard, those guys all kind of recombined their ideology
00:03:08and produced what is known today as the New Apostolic Reformation. The New Apostolic Reformation is
00:03:15the grandchild of the latter reign born in the vineyard movement, primarily in the late 1980s and early
00:03:221990s. Towards the end of John Wimber's life, he was diagnosed with cancer in 1993. He died in 1997. In those
00:03:31years that he was terminally ill, he decided that the ideology was bad. He rejected a lot of it. In the very
00:03:40last months of his life, he wrote some John Wimber's pastoral letters where he rejected some of that
00:03:46ideology and set vineyard on a somewhat of a path of reform after that. But the people who split and
00:03:55exited from vineyard after that were the people who then went on to set up the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:04:02And as they come out of there, they're already deeply influenced by the shepherding movement,
00:04:07by multiple tangled branches of the latter reign via Paul Kane and the Kansas City Prophets.
00:04:13Also directly from somewhat from the message, John, through other, you know, there's other things we could
00:04:19spend a lot of time. I'm reluctant to say it because we just don't have time to share all the
00:04:22documentation on it. But there is a variety of ways in which the different branches of the latter
00:04:28reign infiltrated into the vineyard movement and then into what ended up producing into the New
00:04:34Apostolic Reformation. Now, like you said, we want to talk a little bit about the
00:04:38manifested sons of God ideology today. And I think something that's just kind of important
00:04:47for our listeners to know and to understand is that the different branches of the latter reign
00:04:54movement had different flavors of the manifested sons of God ideology. And we did a full episode
00:05:02on manifested sons of God somewhere back around episode 35, something like that. But maybe let
00:05:07me just, if you guys want something fuller, you know, you can go back and listen to that episode
00:05:11maybe and get more details. But maybe just let me give a quick summary of what manifested sons of
00:05:18God ideology is. And in our last episode, we spent a lot of time talking about fivefold ministry.
00:05:23Well, in this ideology, they needed to restore the fivefold ministry. And then that fivefold ministry
00:05:30could perfect, complete, mature, unify, bring the church into its last day final state. And that last
00:05:39day final state of the church would more or less enable the church to enter into manifested sons of
00:05:44God. And I think that just the easiest way to characterize it, John, is they believed that once
00:05:52people reached this state, some members of the church, some or all members of the church, depending on,
00:05:58you know, which branch you're looking at, they would become empowered as Christ on earth. They would become
00:06:04manifested sons of God. They would be like Christ, really, in power on the earth, with power to control the
00:06:13weather, with power to, you know, to speak demons out of this, and power to heal the sick, and power to just do all
00:06:20kinds of great, powerful, miraculous things, right, as Christ on earth. And it would be Christ on earth in them.
00:06:28And these would be the manifested sons of God. And there's the belief that this would come about in a great last
00:06:34day revival. So, a great revival would happen, and this restoration event would happen, and these people would be
00:06:44empowered in this great, incredible, powerful way, like the church has not been empowered since the days of the
00:06:50book of Acts, you know, since the day that Christ even was still here on earth with the church. And basically, what would
00:06:56happen is the end-of-day scenario would then ensue following this event. Now, there's a variety of scriptures and
00:07:06ways that they arrived at those conclusions, John. And then there's some older teachings that came out of British
00:07:13Israelism that actually was their basis for coming up with these beliefs. We're not going to walk
00:07:18through all that. That would take much too much time. But in a nutshell, that is the belief.
00:07:23And early on, John, schisms developed in the latter rain movement over just what to do about this.
00:07:30And one of the biggest schisms in this ideology, and this happened in the mid-1950s, in early 1950s,
00:07:37probably about 54, 55 is when the schism really started. You had a section of the latter rain movement
00:07:45that was amillennial, and you had another section of the latter rain movement that was premillennial.
00:07:51And the amillennial group and the premillennial group disagreed about how to fit manifested sons of
00:07:58God into their eschatology. And what you had, and amillennial and premillennial, and all of the dispensational
00:08:07beliefs that come around those things, those all predate the latter rain, John. They're not latter rain specific.
00:08:12But what they did is they started to integrate manifested sons of God into those beliefs.
00:08:17Now, the branch of the movement that you and I come from, John, we were the, we were actually the majority back then.
00:08:22We were the premillennial branch. And what our groups did, John, and I'll connect some dots here to help our
00:08:30listeners understand this a little more, but they basically put that manifestation happening shortly
00:08:35before the rapture. So this manifestation will happen, the church will be empowered on earth,
00:08:41there'll be a short window of time where some things will happen, and then that church will rapture up
00:08:46into heaven. And then after, you know, the wrath of God burns up a bunch of people, they would then
00:08:53come back and set up the global government, the kingdom of God on earth, right? They would purge out
00:08:58whatever wicked people had survived, you know, the wrath of God, and they would rule and reign over the
00:09:02earth, and the people would be, you know, whoever was left living would turn into their servants,
00:09:07you know, and there was the rung of ladders, the pyramid where you had the heathens would be the
00:09:11slaves at the bottom, and, you know, and then the Jews would get a little higher level, and
00:09:15the fake Christians get a little higher level, right, all the way up to the elite people who'd
00:09:21been powered as Christ, you know, in the top or upper levels of this thing. Okay, so that was
00:09:26the belief that we come from, John, and that kind of manifested, for example, in each sect of the
00:09:31message even a little differently. Like, your sect of the message believed in the tent meeting,
00:09:35right? And so the tent meeting is where William Branham would give the glorified bodies to the people,
00:09:41and they would reach this state before the rapture. Joseph Coleman's Thunders Group
00:09:45believed that Joseph Coleman was going to give them their glorified bodies, you know, on a such
00:09:49and such a date before the rapture, and this would happen. The sect of the message icon, we believe
00:09:54the five-fold ministry would do it through the power of the Thunders, when the seventh seal was
00:09:58opened, right, and then these other things would happen before the rapture. Every sect of the message
00:10:02had their own little idea about it, and it's the same with all the pre-millennial latter-reign groups.
00:10:08We believe the manifestation would happen, and a certain amount of time would pass,
00:10:13then the rapture, then we'd come back, and we would exterminate all the unbelievers on the earth
00:10:18who didn't submit to our rule, okay? That is, that in a nutshell is the message version
00:10:23of manifested sons of God, you know, end to end, and William Branham was the first among many to
00:10:29become a manifested son of God, was kind of the essential part of the belief set. Now, manifested
00:10:35sons of God, that phrase itself fell out of favor in the 80s. You don't find, it became a lot less
00:10:40common, and they changed the terminology somewhat after the 80s, but the belief itself stayed the
00:10:45same. Well, let's move over to the amillennial branch of the ideology, John. So, there's the
00:10:51amillennial side of things, where they stopped believing in the rapture, they didn't believe
00:10:55in a rapture anymore, all of that ascended up to heaven, and then the wrath of God thing,
00:10:59they didn't believe in that anymore. And that branch, John, there's a variety of them that went
00:11:04down that road. Global missions actually themselves went down that road. Several of the other branches
00:11:11that remained in independent assemblies of God went down that road. And, and what that group does,
00:11:17John, is they integrate manifested sons of God like this. This manifestation is going to happen
00:11:22in a last day revival. The church will be empowered as God on earth, Christ on earth, you know, in them.
00:11:27But instead of ascending up to heaven in the rapture, John, they're just going to go straight
00:11:34into taking over the world, okay? And this was a point of contention in the 50s, right? You had
00:11:43the side that says, no, we're going to have the rapture first. And then you have the side that says,
00:11:47no, there's no such thing as a rapture, we're just going to take over the world, you know, when this
00:11:50happens. And that was a schism in this movement in the 50s, and that was actually part of the schism
00:11:57that led to the breakaway of Sharon Orphanage into their own branch of the movement, John.
00:12:01That's when George Houghton and his brothers ended up exiting out of Sharon Orphanage and
00:12:05ended up in the message. And, and, you know, George Warnock and those guys went down their
00:12:09path. So this is, there's a variety of things that cause schisms over this. Now, as we bring
00:12:17this into the New Apostolic Reformation, John, okay, when this thing got started, it was the
00:12:23shepherding movement branch that was influencing the early Jesus people. Well, they were pre-millennial,
00:12:28John. They were like the message. They had a soft, softer even version than what the message
00:12:32had of this, but they were in the pre-millennial camp on this. And that was their influence.
00:12:37But as the vineyard movement absorbs all these guys in, and, and roughly in the same time frame
00:12:42that Paul Cain and the Kansas City Prophets are coming in, they're also making contact with
00:12:48the amillennial branches of this ideology, John. And for whatever reason, I mean, I don't
00:12:55know, they, the amillennial view starts to become the dominant view within the New Apostolic
00:13:04Reformation. So they reject the pre-millennial dispense, you know, manifested sons of God
00:13:09view that like you and I would have held when we were in the message. And they accept the
00:13:13amillennial view, more that's coming from global missions and in that orbit. And so that is
00:13:19how you get into where the New Apostolic Reformation is today and why they're a little bit scary.
00:13:25Okay. They believe today they have set up their global apostolic network to empower the church
00:13:31on earth. They believe they're heading towards the last day revival where this great manifestation
00:13:36will happen. But instead of, you know, a rapture and Jesus Christ, you know, personally doing some
00:13:42of this stuff, they believe it's their job to take over the world, John. That's what they believe.
00:13:48And now I'm saying this in really blunt terms, they are going to, they would dress it up and it
00:13:53would sound a whole lot more attractive, John, if they were going to be the ones describing it. Okay.
00:13:58But that in a nutshell is how the New Apostolic Reformation got to the manifested sons of God
00:14:07beliefs they have today and how that they ended up with the amillennial variant of the beliefs
00:14:12compared to the message, which had, you know, a premillennial variant. I don't know. What do
00:14:16you think? Is that interesting? Crazy interesting. I go into this a lot in my latest book from Christian
00:14:21Identity to the NAR, but there is a foundational ideology that is behind all of this from its very
00:14:30inception. And a good example is George Houghton. This is a person who was deeply affiliated with
00:14:38the message, he and his brothers, if I understand correctly. And they were part of the movement that
00:14:45believed strongly in the Christian identity ideology. In 1989, George Houghton was exposed
00:14:52because he had been distributing books and literature on, and this sounds awful, but I have
00:15:00to say it for the podcast, how God created a superior race of whites that were meant to rule over blacks
00:15:07and blacks were created in God's wisdom to serve whites according to what was exposed. So that ideology
00:15:14was among the leadership who were influencing Sharon Orphanage, from which influenced by and large
00:15:21the latter rain movement. You had William Branham, who's also obviously mentored by white supremacists.
00:15:27So you had this ideology that's growing, but here's where it gets insidious. They used Bible verses
00:15:33with this manifested sons of God phraseology to make people believe that they could become God in
00:15:41flesh. But they did it in such a way where the casual listener, if you were just to enter into the building
00:15:47and listen to one of the sermons, you wouldn't pick up on it. It wasn't until my grandfather's resignation
00:15:52speech when he said William Branham was God tabernacled in human flesh, that he had openly declared that he
00:16:00believed William Branham was this manifestation of the Son of God. What they instead did, they would focus very heavily
00:16:08on passages from the Bible that were mysterious or symbolic. One of the examples, there's a passage in
00:16:17Colossians, I think it's Colossians 1, says the mystery of Christ is in you. Well, because it has the word
00:16:23mystery, they go very, very deep into their theology of what that mystery is and try to overload it by combining
00:16:31other passages. Probably the most common of which is a passage in Romans where it says the world is
00:16:38basically groaning, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. So they would say that this
00:16:43manifestation is coming. They would use passages from Romans, passages from Ephesians, I think there's
00:16:49one in John, scattered through the Bible, anything that says something to do with the coming of the
00:16:55Son of Man. What they did was they changed what the coming of the Son of Man was. Every passage
00:17:02that's talking about Jesus, they instead wanted to say that it is this ideology that's coming forward
00:17:08and you and I, brothers, are this manifestation that's coming. I never understood it fully while I
00:17:14was in the message and then after I left and began studying Christian identity, I was abhorred, man.
00:17:19We were just in something that was awful. It was very good to get my family out of it.
00:17:25But where I'm headed with all of this, that was the foundation that was laid. Then all of these
00:17:32movements started to grow and build upon this, many of which didn't even know they were supposed to be
00:17:38in this white supremacy ideology. So what happened over time is as it transitioned, this false doctrine
00:17:45that was built upon removed many of the racial elements and they grew in different directions. You had
00:17:52some groups that wanted to keep the racial elements. They grew into a form of manifested sons of God
00:17:57where there is a race war that is coming. You had others that just simply wanted to take over the world
00:18:02and brought forth the Seven Mountains mandate, etc. But all of it comes from the same foundation.
00:18:08You know, John, there's so much interesting stuff there.
00:18:13This part of the ideology is very quickly becomes crackpot. I gotta say, it just does. And there's so
00:18:22many flavors of it where there's just nuance in it, right? And if you go all the way back to the 50s,
00:18:31though, you're going to find the basic concepts all the way back in the latter rainwritings from the very
00:18:36beginning of this stuff, that the manifestation would happen through this last day of revival.
00:18:43Yes, John, that a man-child would be born, a son of man would come, and it would be Christ in the
00:18:50church in a super great, powerful way. You know, all the way back to George Warnock's Feast of Tabernacle
00:18:55books had this stuff in it. And then, you know, it would ensue. And all of the proof texts were in that
00:19:00book from the very beginning, and through the ideology. And for our listeners' sake, John, you
00:19:06and I are from, you know, we're from the first and second oldest message churches, right? Our friends
00:19:12and family were in this from pretty well day one of this ideology, right? And we're not, you know,
00:19:19we're not speaking of things we don't know about, or even things I haven't read about. I actually
00:19:23pulled out here, John. Look, I have a mountain of literature. And this is not message literature,
00:19:30John. This is from, this, all, every single one of these is wrote by one of the elders of Sharon
00:19:35Orphanage, right here. These are the, these are the writings that came out of Sharon Orphanage about
00:19:42these things, okay? You know, and there's so many of them. And, and, and John, I mean, I know this
00:19:50ideology. And when I say I know, I don't just know the version of it that we believe where we come
00:19:56from, John, because there's been so many schisms over this stuff over the years that, like where I
00:20:03come from, we learned how to argue against every other version of this ideology to prove that ours
00:20:08was the best. And so, and so we didn't just know our version of this ideology. We knew the version of
00:20:15every other branch of the movement so that we could argue against them and prove that our version was
00:20:20the best. So when I say I know these things like the back of my hand, I know these things like the
00:20:26back of my hand, John. I mean, from fivefold ministry to manifested sons of God, the entire
00:20:30framework of how this ideology works all the way back to the fifties and stuff when it really took
00:20:36off. I mean, I know this ideology like the back of my hand and I know each variant and who came up
00:20:41with this and that and those pieces in it. And a lot of it because there were points in times where we
00:20:46had arguments. You know, like I said, how we used to go spy on Ern Baxter and stuff. We knew. We were
00:20:53competing with each other. We were, John. And we were aware of a lot of the connections of the
00:20:59history of this. What was surprising to me, though, John, is with elements of it, there's elements of
00:21:04it I thought was more orthodox than others when I was in it. I never thought manifested sons of God.
00:21:10I never thought that stuff was orthodox, right? I always knew this was some special revelation we had.
00:21:14Quote, unquote, special revelation. But elements of it I thought was orthodox. Like, I thought
00:21:20fivefold ministry was orthodox for most of my life only to discover, no, that was actually part of the
00:21:26whole package. That's something I didn't, you know, discover until really, you know, my last years in
00:21:31the message. But, you know, in a nutshell, John, when you come back to this stuff, it gets so crazy.
00:21:38And you can see how this starts to produce radical behavior in people. They're chasing this
00:21:44manifestation coming via the last day revival to empower them into this end of day state
00:21:51with the ultimate culmination belief that they're going to be the great world powers
00:21:57of the earth. And the people, it is so easy to go crazy with this, John. You know, and when you,
00:22:04when the people start to get brainwashed, and here's the thing, how do they believe that they're
00:22:08going to get there? Positive confession. They're going to believe it's true. And then believing
00:22:13it true is going to make it happen. They're going to faith their way into it. They're going to only
00:22:17believe their way into it, right? And so it creates a feedback loop where there don't have to be a shred
00:22:25of evidence that this thing is true. We're only believing our way into it, right? And they start to get
00:22:33the only, you know, the positive confession through the only believism starts to brainwash
00:22:38the people in this stuff, right? And then when you've got the authoritarian leadership model of
00:22:42five-fold ministry ruling over the thing, John, they channel it in what that went to whatever
00:22:48direction they want. And it does, it gets, it gets very crazy, this ideology. And it has. And that's
00:22:54something that's repeated over and over in the history of this ideology, John. You know, in the first
00:22:59volume of, I wrote on message history, I did a short chapter where I traced, you know, the history
00:23:05of this ideology even before latter rain. Because this, this ideology didn't actually begin in latter
00:23:10rain, just like it didn't begin in, in new apostolic reformation. New apostolic reformation,
00:23:14they just repackaged it, right? Latter rain, they just repackaged it. And these things go back in
00:23:20time, actually, some of it as far back as the 1700s, some of these beliefs. I think as far as I know,
00:23:27we can credit Jane Leed, actually, as the originator of manifested sons of God, right?
00:23:32Just as we can, we can credit Edward Irving as the man who started five-fold ministry beliefs.
00:23:37You know, there's different elements of this we can credit to different people. And what you see
00:23:41happen in the, in the, in the later 1700s and early 1800s, those beliefs all get imported into
00:23:48British Israelism. And then via British Israelism, they transport forward, right? And as you come into
00:23:54early Pentecostalism, there are two, there are two British Israelite groups of Pentecostals that are
00:24:01important. There are those that came from the influence of John Alexander Dowie. But then there's
00:24:05also the, the ones who came from the influence of, his name is Jeffries. The first name's slipping my
00:24:12mind. But he's the man who came out of the Welsh Revival and started the Elam Fellowship in the UK.
00:24:16So you have Elam in the UK, and which then also has churches in North America. But then in North America,
00:24:23you have the branches out of Zion, out of John Alexander Dowie. You got two
00:24:27small, yet influential British Israelite groups of Pentecostals. And they have these ideas already in
00:24:36early Pentecostalism. They already have manifested sons of God. They already have five-fold ministry.
00:24:42They already have these concepts in early Pentecostalism. But here's the thing. Mainstream
00:24:46Pentecostalism rejected all of that in the first generation. Assemblies of God outright rejected those
00:24:52things in their, you know, conference meetings. There's articles ran, you know, the Pentecostal
00:24:59evangelist rejecting, like, they got rejected by mainstream early Pentecostalism. And, but, but they,
00:25:06but they survived in this British Israel portion of Pentecostalism, which was slowly dying. And then when
00:25:15the latter rain movement happens, John, it is the British Israel Pentecostals who launched the latter
00:25:20rain movement. It absolutely is. You know, it's Elam. And they, they jump into it real quick because
00:25:25they're already British Israelites. They've got a big connection to it. And that's where Bob Mumford comes
00:25:29from. You know, we've talked about some of those things before. But then you have, in North America, you have
00:25:34the British Israelites are predominantly within the Foursquare denomination back then, John. And
00:25:39Foursquare, we know, is who planted the Sharon Orphanage, where latter rain started. Well, anyways,
00:25:44they launched this ideology. The, the, the, the, these ideas and concepts carry forward into latter rain.
00:25:50And we know, again, mainstream Pentecostalism totally rejected latter rain. And it kind of went into this
00:25:56hibernating under the radar approach, John, surviving in the message in its branches, surviving in the
00:26:02shepherding movement and its branches. And in those years, they dropped the 10 lost tribes concept,
00:26:07right, in a lot of the movement. But they kept other, they kept a lot of the other elements that
00:26:10came out of British Israelism. And that then finds its way into the vineyard movement in the 1980s
00:26:21and 1990s, influences what becomes the new apostolic reformation, the ideology. John Wimber pushes them
00:26:28out at the end of their lives, and they're off, they're off on their tangent today, doing, doing what
00:26:33they're doing. And if you look at the history of this ideology, John, it is a long string of boom and bust
00:26:40cycles. This ideology is a string of boom and bust cycles all the way back to the 1700s. As far back as you can
00:26:48trace it, it's been a cycle of boom and bust, boom and bust, boom and bust. The Last Day Revival is
00:26:53coming, ladies and gentlemen. We've got to get ready. Hurry, hurry, hurry. We're gonna, it's gonna be,
00:26:57Christ is gonna return in a great way, and we've got a great work to do in order to help with his
00:27:01coming. And then it turns out the leaders are all dirtbags. And it falls apart. And then it repeats
00:27:09itself. And it repeats itself. And it repeats itself. And it repeats itself. And, and here what
00:27:16we're living in today, John, with Mike Bickle and what's happening, you know, Art Lussier and all
00:27:21these others, it's repeating itself again right now, right? Daystar, all that. Right now, there's just,
00:27:27there has been a boom cycle of this that has been building since the late 90s, John, and the bust cycle
00:27:33is now in full motion. Okay? Because the people have discovered yet again that they, that the
00:27:40leaders were all a bunch of dirtbags, right? It, it's just the sad truth of the thing. And that's
00:27:45how this ideology iterates. And, and, and, you know, I don't have to be a prophet, John, to tell you
00:27:50what's going to happen next. Because I can look at the last 10 times that this has happened with this
00:27:54ideology, and I can tell you the exact same thing is going to happen again. Here's what's going to
00:27:58happen, John. A segment of the people are going to wake up and leave and reform and go
00:28:03find their way to Jesus and be just fine. Praise the Lord. Another segment of the people
00:28:09are going to be so fanatically devoted to Mike Bickle and any of the others, they're going to
00:28:16be a cult. And there is nothing that is ever going to be done to be possible to stop that cult. They
00:28:21are going to be mindlessly trapped in that cult system. And that's going to last for two or three
00:28:26or four generations, right? And eventually they, they'll probably fade out. It's very sad. And it's
00:28:31going to get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. Okay. And, and they'll eventually die
00:28:39out. But then there's going to be a third group that comes out of this, John. And that third group
00:28:44is going to be the group that says, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, our leaders
00:28:48turned out to all be dirtbags. Let's try to find the right way to reform this thing. And they will.
00:28:54And those are the group that will restart the cycle that will repeat again. And we'll be right back here,
00:28:59John, in about 30 more years. That is what is going to happen because that is what has happened
00:29:04the last 10 times. And it's going to happen again. And so, ladies and gentlemen, I mean,
00:29:09I, I, we've primarily done this, I think, I feel to try and help people leave in the message. But I do
00:29:14know we seem to have a lot of people listening from, from that background. Please, please, this, if you,
00:29:21this, there's never a better time to try and kill this ideology than right now while we're in a
00:29:26bus cycle. You know, put the knife, you know, you got a silver knife, I've got a cross, right?
00:29:33Put the cross through Dracula's heart right here. This is the time to do it, okay? And don't let
00:29:37this thing go into another cycle, for goodness sakes. Examine this thing and clean out all of the
00:29:46bathwater, right? And don't keep half the bathwater with the baby, okay? And the thing is, there's
00:29:52probably a lot of stuff you think is baby that is actually bathwater, okay? Look at this thing
00:29:56carefully, carefully, carefully, that you don't set up another cycle of this ideology to do this
00:30:04all over again. You know, whenever I began researching and trying to piece together how
00:30:09we got into this mess today, from the mess that I was familiar with, it was really difficult because
00:30:16I would look at the different movements, some of which I knew had a lineage back to William
00:30:21Branham. And I would examine its theology, its ideology. And my first thought when examining
00:30:27them is, well, they're pretty crazy, but they're nothing like what we came from. So therefore,
00:30:32I just, I really, in the beginning, just discounted the whole thing. I said, maybe some nut jobs just
00:30:39hijacked whatever power or money or sex or whatever they could get out of this movement and then went
00:30:45astray. But it wasn't until I studied, there were two things that I studied that really helped me tie
00:30:52it all back to Branhamism. And that is, the first thing is what we're talking about today,
00:30:57the manifested sons of God. The second thing, which I won't go deep into, the kingdom theology.
00:31:03If you understand the progression of how kingdom theology developed from what Branham had and what
00:31:09was before Branham into what happened during the charismatic movement, all the way up to the NAR,
00:31:15the kingdom movement is how you are describing the domain for the manifested sons of God.
00:31:24Those two in parallel unlocked the door and the key to finding all of this history. So once I began
00:31:31to understand that, I started going through the different movements and you can see all of the
00:31:35different flavors of the manifested sons of God, how they begin to emerge. Some of them, like I said,
00:31:41are purely racist because at its core, that's what it was developed primarily as by the Christian
00:31:47identity leaders. But remember, there were levels of layers below this before Christian identity even
00:31:56was a thing. You had, like you said, Jane Leed talking about the manifested sons of God way back in,
00:32:02I don't know what that is, 1500s or 1600s.
00:32:06Later, 1700s, I think.
00:32:08Yeah.
00:32:08When it was published.
00:32:09So if you trace all the way back to her version of what is kingdom theology, it's totally different.
00:32:14But they emerge and they evolve in kind of the same way. But like you said, there are these
00:32:19boom and bust cycles. What will happen is it will build up until, it is a platform that enables
00:32:27destructive leaders. It'll build up until the group becomes so destructive that either a bunch
00:32:32of people die or they end up having all of these doomsday prophecies that failed with many failed
00:32:39years of what they predict as the end of the world. Or people will just suddenly realize, wait a minute,
00:32:45this theology that we're teaching doesn't match these specific passages from the Bible.
00:32:50Therefore, it must be extra biblical or anti-biblical. And then they'll bust, but they'll keep the same
00:32:57foundation and build up again. So it comes, it goes, it comes and goes. And if you understand that and
00:33:04understand how the movement has continued to evolve, you can trace its lineage all the way back. And
00:33:11that's kind of what I did. I've seen comments where people say, you're tracing everything back to
00:33:16Branhamism. Not everything is Branhamism. It isn't so much that as I'm tracing the manifested sons of
00:33:21God and the kingdom theology. When you understand that and unlock that history, it's amazing what it
00:33:30opens up because you find all of these movements that are interconnected, interrelated, yet evolve into
00:33:38very, very destructive groups.
00:33:40You know, if you take, say you take what, what they believe at Bethel about this today, right? Bethel
00:33:48believes manifested sons of God. If you take their version of manifested sons of God, and then you go
00:33:52back and you read Jane Leeds' version of manifested sons of God, you're going to say, this is, no, this is
00:33:59not the same thing, right? But you can't do it that way. You've got to look at all the intervening
00:34:04versions. I tried to do that in volume one of my book, John, to try and just walk through the, how the
00:34:09versions evolved. The Bethel guy, you know, that version, they didn't get it directly from Jane
00:34:16Leeds. They got it from the amillennial branch of the latter reign. Who got it from the early branch
00:34:22of the latter reign, right? Who got it from the Pentecostal British Israelites? Who got it from Jane
00:34:27Leeds? Okay, it's went through those iterations, and in each version, it gets modified a little bit.
00:34:34It does. And when you watch the evolution of it, right, it makes sense when you actually look at it
00:34:41step to step to step to step. And the elements, though, that remain consistent is, before the
00:34:50second literal bodily coming of Christ, people are going to be glorified on earth and enact a great
00:34:56last day revival and go out and do all kinds of great powerful things and eventually take over
00:35:04the world, okay? That is in Jane Leeds' stuff from the very beginning, okay? Yep, there are other
00:35:10details that change. As each iteration goes, there are elements that change. It eventually changes
00:35:15amillennial. You know, Jane Leeds' version was premillennial, John, if you go look at it,
00:35:19actually. Jane Leeds' version was premillennial, right? The amillennial shift happened in the early
00:35:23latter rain movement. So there's an evolution of this ideology over time. And, you know,
00:35:32like I said, John, I know this backwards and forwards, right? So, I mean, I could talk to
00:35:37anybody about this in detail, you know, down to the fine nitty-gritty details of this stuff to try
00:35:43and explain it all. But I'm just trying to say these things in a kind of a broad way that I hope
00:35:48the average listener can just kind of pick up what I'm talking about. But yes, John, I mean,
00:35:55this thing's been going on forever, right? You go back, one of the bus cycles was Joanna Southcott,
00:36:01remember? She believed that she was going to bring the man-child in and the manifested son of God,
00:36:06the start it all was going to come through her. But it turns out it was a tumor in her stomach and
00:36:11she died. You had a bus cycle because it turned out she was just a dirtbag deceiving everybody,
00:36:18right? And then it cycles again, right? Like, you can go through every iteration of this ideology,
00:36:24John, and it just, it repeats itself. It repeats itself. It repeats itself. You know, one problem
00:36:32that I might point out, John, that I see in this ideology is that, you know, there seems to be,
00:36:40when you look at all these people, the last day revival is so critical to all this, right?
00:36:45There's a reason they're chasing it. They're not chasing a last day revival because they want to
00:36:49see this loss saved and, hey, we would like to see souls. That's wonderful. You know, to have a
00:36:54revival to save, you know, see people find Jesus, that's great. But they're after the last day revival
00:36:59because they need it for the end of day scenario and because they're chasing this power, right?
00:37:05That is what they're after, a lot of them, with their last day revival.
00:37:10And they're very keen to make it happen, really, pretty well at all costs, right?
00:37:16I mean, it's, and you see within a lot of these people, John, and you'll find a lot of them say
00:37:22this, more or less, that the new birth is messy. And so we should expect messy things to happen,
00:37:28you know, when we're converting people. They'll say revivals are messy and we should expect that
00:37:34there's going to be a certain amount of casualties in any revival, right? Like, they have that mentality
00:37:39built in that whenever we go out and do this thing and have this revival, it's only natural
00:37:44that there's going to be X percentage of casualties and bad things happen. It's just the natural
00:37:48byproduct of God's revivals to produce this natural, you know, this, you know, ugly side
00:37:54of things. And you'll hear them say this and they will vocalize that. There'll be people who say that
00:37:59very plainly. And as they go out and they have these revivals and they're trying to do this thing,
00:38:04they're doing it with the conscious awareness that, yes, we are fully expecting this to produce
00:38:09at least some percentage of damaged people, damaged stuff, problems, right? They go into it with that
00:38:15expectation that they're going to cause harm. And it does, John, it does. And what ends up happening is
00:38:24that that percentage that causes problems is a whole lot bigger than a lot of them ever want to admit.
00:38:29And in a lot of these groups, I think, what's sad to say, some of them, I think the majority of what
00:38:35they do is actually harm rather than help. And, you know, I think, you know, like a doctor,
00:38:42when a doctor goes out to help people, what do they say? Do no harm, right? Don't make it worse,
00:38:47right? And it's very hard for me to believe. I mean, when Jesus held his revivals, John,
00:38:54were there casualties? I mean, I don't think so, right? Did the Apostle Paul, when he held his
00:39:01revivals, were there casualties? I mean, there was the boy who fell out of the window and broke his
00:39:05neck because Paul preached too long, but Paul went and healed him, right? So, I mean, I don't see in
00:39:10the Bible casualties coming out of revivals, John, or out of, you know, spreading the gospel,
00:39:16right? And so, it's very hard for me, you know, to even want to touch that stuff. And I think it's
00:39:24really eye-opening if you step back and realize that a lot of them say, yes, we fully expect a
00:39:30percentage of what we do to cause casualties, and we're willing to accept that risk for you
00:39:35because we need this last day of revival. That's a very common thing, you know, although I'm vocalizing
00:39:41it in a way they don't quite. It's there in the things that they say and do.
00:39:45You know, Charles, I'm a big fan of cartoons. I've mentioned that a few times. What I see in
00:39:50Manifested Sons of God, one of the reasons it fascinates me is because it is a religious version
00:39:56of Pinky and the Brain. I don't know if the audience is not familiar with this show. There's
00:40:01two lab rats that basically one of them wants to take over the world every single day, and he says,
00:40:08what are we going to do today, brain? Try to take over the world. And what happens is they attempt it,
00:40:14and it turns into such chaos and mess that it turns into a funny cartoon? Well, if you think
00:40:20about Manifested Sons of God, it's the same way. With every boom cycle, they're trying to get to the
00:40:25point where they are literally believing that they're the manifestation of the Son of God
00:40:31in the people or in the leader or some variation in between. And with the kingdom theology, this is now
00:40:38our domain. We're the gods of the kingdom. We must try to take it over, and bad things happen.
00:40:44There is not a scenario that I can think of whenever you combine those two things where a bad
00:40:50thing is not going to happen. So whenever I look at churches like Bethel or IHOP or any of them that
00:40:57build their framework on those two elements, this weird variation of kingdom theology and the
00:41:04manifested sons of God, you're going to end up to be destructive. Are they destructive now? That
00:41:10could be debated, but they will end up there if they're not already, because that is what happens
00:41:16whenever you combine those two things. Bad things happen, and all the way back to its root, when you
00:41:22examine it all the way to its root, you have to ignore large portions of scripture to believe this
00:41:29thing. So while they're preaching, and they claim they're preaching from the Bible, what they're
00:41:35doing is they're preaching between the lines. William Branham would often say that you have to
00:41:40read a book. You have to read between the lines, and he gave this example. I don't know if you
00:41:44remember him. He said, if my wife sends me a letter, she's writing the letter. Well, I know what
00:41:48she's saying in between those lines. That's how you have to read the Bible. And I didn't even think of
00:41:54it when I was in the cult, but now that I'm out of it, I'm thinking, that is so horrific, man,
00:41:58because you can inject whatever you want between those lines. And so for me, it's fascinating. I
00:42:06can't stop digging, because it's an adult version of Pinky and the Brain, and every group that uses
00:42:12it, it's fascinating to see where they end up, because they always end up in destruction.
00:42:18It really is something, John. I hope that a lot of the people who are in this ideology are able to
00:42:23escape it, and not just reform it, but actually to eliminate these problems that are the root causes
00:42:33of this stuff, right? And the root cause of this is not, as Derek Prince would say, demons.
00:42:40It's not the flesh. It's not all of these. You know, Derek Prince had all kinds of ways to blame
00:42:45the problems on everything except the ideology. The problem is the ideology. That's the problem.
00:42:53The problem is the ideology makes people go crazy, okay? It's not demons. It's not people's flesh.
00:43:01It is a brainwashing system on these people that make them go crazy, right? And you actually need
00:43:06to step back and examine the ideology. And, you know, this is, these manifested sons of God is
00:43:14in the way that Jane lead in these movements. He is not part of historic Christianity at all,
00:43:19right? The five-fold ministry teachings are not part of historic Christianity. I mean, they're just not.
00:43:26Positive confession is not part of historic Christianity. I mean, those three things are not
00:43:33Bible-based beliefs. John, I mean, I am firmly of that conviction on this side of things. And those
00:43:40three things, frankly, need to be eliminated. But until they're eliminated, anytime those three
00:43:46things recombine together, guess what's going to happen? A boom and a bust cycle of this ideology.
00:43:51It is inevitable. You can trace it through history. It's happened over and over and over again in big
00:43:58ways and in small ways. So, John, I don't know. There's so much more we could say.
00:44:03You know, one thing I might say is this, is I think the premillennial version of this ideology
00:44:12is safer. I'll be honest. I think it's safer for the world around us. It's maybe not necessarily
00:44:20safer for the people in it. I think the premillennial version of it tends more towards doomsday,
00:44:25right? But the amillennial version of it tends towards societal chaos, right? So, you know,
00:44:31what do you pick there? The lesser of two evils. I think that for society at large, the premillennial
00:44:36version is probably healthier. But the amillennial version of it, I mean, you see it. They're much
00:44:42more into trying converting the masses. And there's not really any safeguard in place to keep it from
00:44:48really going crazy, right? You know, the premillennial version actually does literally
00:44:54expect to ascend up to heaven in the rapture, right? And that's stuff to happen. You can't really
00:44:58fake a rapture, right? I mean, that's pretty hard to fake, you know what I mean? But the amillennial
00:45:04stuff, you could fake all of that. Oh, yeah, you could fake every bit of that. And I wouldn't put it
00:45:09past them to fake a lot of it, John. I mean, they are faking a lot of it today, right? It's crazy.
00:45:16And maybe kind of coming back to my remarks about how they always expect a percentage of casualties to
00:45:21come out of this. You know, when you think to John Wimber, for example, we've talked about him a lot.
00:45:27But Derek Prince, the same way, you know, they're always talking how it's God, right? It's God. God
00:45:36told me this this morning. God led me this way. God told me the gifts of the Spirit are going to come
00:45:41in this way. John Wimber would do this quite a lot, how God told me to start this movement. God told me
00:45:47to do this. God told me to do that. But look at what Vineyard produced, John. Look at the people that he got
00:45:55into bed with. Look at the child molesters and the homosexuals and the rapists and all of that
00:46:01stuff that John Wimber put on the platform with him and let preach and who did that to the people
00:46:06around them. Look at, I mean, look at all of that stuff. Look at how it empowered the New Apostolic
00:46:13Reformation. Look at all the people that were harmed. You know, like out in, there's like class action
00:46:19lawsuits right now against Vineyard for sexual molestation from their pastors. The main Vineyard
00:46:25church out in Anaheim left the denomination here very recently, right? I mean, there's problems.
00:46:31There's problems to this present day with this stuff. And when you reflect back on it and John
00:46:36Wimber says, God told me to do all of this stuff. It's so, that is so problematic, John. I mean,
00:46:43did God tell John Wimber to do this stuff that was going to lead to all of these problems?
00:46:48Boy, it's really hard. That makes God look bad, right? If God really told John Wimber to do this
00:46:55stuff, boy, then it makes God a bad person, doesn't it? Right? And that's part of the problem
00:47:01that these ideologies create. Because there are people who walk away and will say, okay, well,
00:47:07I believe God told John Wimber to do all this stuff. I believe God told Derek Prince to beat me
00:47:13until the demon came out of me, you know? I believe Derek Prince told my parents to beat
00:47:17me until the demon came out of me. And they did. And they said, well, I don't want anything
00:47:23to do with that. I don't want anything to do with a God like that. And that ideology creates
00:47:28those kind of casualties in mass. There are all kinds of casualties. You know, I talked to a woman,
00:47:35I talked to so many people that come out of this ideology, John. You know, in the message,
00:47:39we would sing, in the name of Jesus, in the name of Jesus, demons will have to flee. Well,
00:47:45there's one woman I talked to, she said, my parents would beat me to the rhythm of that
00:47:48song as they cast the demons out of me. They would beat her to the rhythm and sing, demons
00:47:54will have to flee, you know? And preachers inspired them to do this stuff, right? And this creates
00:48:01casualties. And there's people that are responsible for doing this. And there are people,
00:48:07people, and it's not a few people. It is a large number of people who have been irreparably
00:48:12damaged by this ideology, right? And all the primary, even when you see in the comments back
00:48:19on some of the prior videos we did, all you see is people trying to make excuses. Oh, Derek
00:48:24Prince wouldn't do that. Oh, sure he did. People listening to his preaching or did that,
00:48:28right? The same with John Wimber. People listening to John Wimber went off and made the crazy
00:48:33gnar. I mean, there is responsibility for this stuff, right? And making excuses for
00:48:37them don't help. You know, trying to nibble around the edges and try to find some way to
00:48:43recover it all. At a certain point, you've got to step back and you've got to say, no,
00:48:47they were lying to us when they said God told them to do all this. No, he didn't. No, he
00:48:51didn't. They were making all that up. And all that stuff they're saying, you know how many,
00:48:56Derek Prince, I think, said three or four demons possessed him at different points in his
00:48:59life, John? Derek Prince, I mean, why would you want a preacher who's possessed by demons
00:49:05to preach to you? You know, it's kind of like William Branham saying he was possessed by the
00:49:09demon squirrel. Like, why would you want to listen to a preacher who actually admits to
00:49:14having demons in him, right? I mean, I sure wouldn't want a preacher like that. You know,
00:49:19the harm caused by this stuff, and a lot of the times that is just to deflect from their
00:49:24own responsibility in this. Yes, it was an evil spirit that made me do that, and now it's
00:49:28gone. Praise the Lord. Let's get back on track. Listen to me again. No. No. There's
00:49:35no get out of jail free for all of this stuff, John. And, you know, for me, primarily the
00:49:41reason I wrote chapter 10 in my book, primarily the reason I did these past five episodes with
00:49:45you, John, is to try and help the people in the message just understand that are leaving.
00:49:51There are other branches of this ideology that are just as harmful, that are just as dangerous,
00:49:55and that do a lot of the same stuff and have a lot of the same beliefs. And just beware
00:49:59not to—if you want to get away from that stuff, that's not the place to go. You know,
00:50:03go find yourself a nice, normal, healthy, more evangelical church, probably, you know,
00:50:08than that sort of, you know, crazy stuff where they're still, you know, piling on all of the
00:50:14nonsense from the places that we came from. And that's really what has motivated me talking
00:50:19about this. I don't really know, John, frankly. I haven't done this in such a way that I think
00:50:23would even be helpful to people from these movements. I hope maybe that they can be helped
00:50:28by the things we've talked about. But that really hasn't been my target or the way that
00:50:34I've approached it in such a way to hopefully help them, but more so to just bring awareness
00:50:38to our friends, to our family, to our loved ones, to the people we know that are coming
00:50:42from our background to beware. There's also danger over here in these other branches of the
00:50:47latter rain movement. And maybe that's not a good place to go either after having left
00:50:52the message.
00:50:54No, it's not a good place. And, you know, like I said, I pieced all this together looking
00:50:58at just those two theologies. Where it gets really difficult to explain whenever somebody's
00:51:04on the outside looking in is that it isn't just those two that are destructive. Those two
00:51:10are the framework that enabled me to understand where all this came from. But with each variation
00:51:15that happens with each different version of manifested sons of God, it's a different
00:51:21foundation than the Bible. So it produces different doctrine. And the doctrines all different,
00:51:26all vary. That's why when you look at Bethel, you're not going to see it looks nothing like
00:51:31the message that we came from. When you look at Bethel, it's totally evolved into something
00:51:35new. But it's using that same from that same framework, that same foundation. And I worry
00:51:43sometimes, as I look at the groups that have developed from this, thinking through how destructive
00:51:50our cult was, what doctrines are they producing that are becoming commonplace? What doctrines
00:51:57have main, even mainstream Christianity, believe it or not, are influenced by some of these things.
00:52:02So as mainstream Christianity evolves, and you have these destructive groups that aren't
00:52:08yet considered to be destructive, what theologies are they introducing that is going to make the
00:52:14whole thing a mess? So whenever I see the mess that's created and where it came from, it just
00:52:21really worries me. I'm glad I got my family out of it. But I wish more people would stand up and say,
00:52:26no, we do not want this. It already has a track record of producing destructive cults.
00:52:32Take it out. No more manifested sons of God. No more Joel's army. Rip out everything that was built
00:52:38on that foundation.
00:52:39I think that's a very good way to put it, John. There's just so much wrong and so much harm.
00:52:45And it is, you know, again, the reason that I want to stay away from it is inevitable that this
00:52:52ideology is going to produce more cults. It's inevitable. It is, at this point, a 250-year track
00:52:58record of this ideology. It will produce more cults, right? It is right now. You look at what's
00:53:05happening with these people from, I watched a video here of a lady from IHOP here not very long ago,
00:53:12John. Oh my goodness. I kind of, up until now, I had thought they were maybe not quite a, you know,
00:53:22just how cult they had become. They're a full-blown cult, ladies and gentlemen. Run for your lives.
00:53:26Run for your lives, you know, after seeing some of that stuff. You know, and the thing is, that has
00:53:32always, that cultic element has been there in the nucleus of that from day one. It has. And you're
00:53:38just now seeing it, right? The inner core has always been crazy cultic in these movements, right?
00:53:44But the outer layers are more normal, right? Kind of like a pyramid. You know, Stephen Hassan has that
00:53:48really nice pyramid diagram. You got the leader at the top. You got the most loyal cult-like group around
00:53:54him. You got the next layer out is the next layer of the cult. But the further you get away from the
00:53:59center, the less culty the people are. And what you see, John, is a lot of the people in that,
00:54:05you know, that third and fourth layer tier out, they're escaping the movement, right? But the people
00:54:11from those inner tiers, they're the ones having the trouble getting away because they're the ones
00:54:15who've been most brainwashed by the ideology. The same thing is true in the message. It is so sad.
00:54:21And at the end of the day, even though there are differences between the beliefs of the
00:54:27message and the beliefs of the New Apostolic Reformation, the elements that hold and trap
00:54:31the people are still common elements. Positive confession is still what brainwashes the people
00:54:37in both movements. The positive thinking beliefs of this movement blind the people to danger.
00:54:44They blind the people to critical thinking. And they trap them in a feedback loop where they
00:54:50cannot realize something here is very wrong. The positive confession teachings do that.
00:54:56And the things built on those teachings. The fivefold ministry structures is an authoritarian
00:55:01leadership model that is controlling them. And the manifested sons of God ideology has them
00:55:06chasing a something they're never going to get. It's never going to come to fruition because
00:55:11it's not real. And B, it's going to continue to produce more and more radical behavior.
00:55:16And what happens in these movements, John, I think we've mentioned before a book called When Prophecy
00:55:22Fails, which is a really a fantastic study of ideologies like this. What happens is, is the
00:55:29prophecies fail over time. And each time the prophecies fail, some people wake up and leave. But the people
00:55:36who remain get more radical. Isn't it ironic, John, that the Chiefs won the Super Bowl the same year Mike
00:55:42Pickle got outed with all of this? What a great irony that is, right? Because the Chiefs win in the
00:55:48Super Bowl was supposed to be the sign of the last day of revival. Instead, it's the sign of the
00:55:51downfall of IHOP, right? What irony? What irony? Their prophecy failed, obviously, right? But did the
00:55:58people actually wake up when their prophecy failed? No, a lot of them did not. Now, some of them did.
00:56:05Some of them wake up and leave. But the ones who stay, stay. And what happens? They get more radical.
00:56:10And every cycle this happens, they will get more radical. And as that cycle continues, right? What
00:56:17happens at the end of the day is, you can end up in really crazy, dangerous places, right? And it
00:56:24don't take, it don't take many more cycles, I think, for people as crazy as they are to, to go off the
00:56:30deep end. I mean, I would think a lot of people say they're already off the deep end after listening
00:56:34to that poor crazy lady, and the stuff that she said about it all. But I mean, they're off the deep
00:56:39end, John. And it's scary. And you know, I have, John, I have so much sympathy for the people in
00:56:47these movements and in the message. You know, someone listening might think that we're being
00:56:51judgmental of the deliverance movement and all of that and the people in it. But not really. Not in
00:56:56the sense, I think, that, I mean, we're certainly being judgmental of the ideology. But John, I mean,
00:57:02we were these people. Where do you think we come from, ladies and gentlemen? I was a preacher in
00:57:09this thing. I was the associate pastor of the second oldest message church in the world. John,
00:57:13your grandfather was the pastor of Branham Tabernacle. We, we lived, even if we lived to be
00:57:19old people, we'll have lived most of our lives in this ideology. We, we are guilty of all this
00:57:26ideology has to offer ourselves, right? Jesus said, you better be merciful if you want to obtain
00:57:32mercy. I am very merciful, John, because I need a lot of mercy out of this thing. And I'm very
00:57:37entirely understanding. I understand how this ideology grips you and holds you and traps you
00:57:44and blinds you so you don't even realize what you're doing. And I'm also, no, intimately, the pain
00:57:50that comes with waking up and realizing, oh my goodness, what have we done? Oh my goodness, what
00:57:57have we, it is a painful wake-up call when that sort of thing happens. And I have great sympathy for
00:58:02the people in these movements. And I have great sympathy for the pain and the difficulty it takes to
00:58:09escape these movements and to, and to re-examine your ideology and, and, and even to find your way back
00:58:17to a solid foundation with Christ on the other side of these things. And I just have a tremendous
00:58:22sympathy for these people, John. And I wish, I wish I had a million hours in a day that I could help
00:58:28everybody. But, you know, I, I tend to try and focus my efforts on helping the people leaving the
00:58:33message because those are the people that I know the most. And those are the people that I am certainly
00:58:37the most qualified to help with. I sometimes get people reach out to me, John, asking for help coming
00:58:42out of these movements. I do my best to, you know, to be kind and offer advice. But at the end of the
00:58:47day, I would encourage you to find a preacher who hadn't spent his entire life in a cult
00:58:51to help you. You know what I mean? There are good preachers out there who haven't been in a cult
00:58:58for their entire lives. They can probably help you a whole lot better than, than, you know,
00:59:02than, than someone like me. But at any rate, I've shared with you the best that I know through these
00:59:07things, John. And maybe what we can do in our next episode or two, maybe we can go back through the
00:59:12comments through the second series that we've done. We finished. This is the last episode in our second
00:59:16series of revival history, looking at the post-Brandom years. We can maybe look through some
00:59:20of the questions people ask. Maybe we can do a couple question and answers episodes to wrap
00:59:25everything up. So feel free, ladies and gentlemen, put your questions in the comment feeds. We'll go
00:59:30back through, pick out some good ones, and we'll try and do a few question and answers episodes. But
00:59:34thanks everyone for listening. Well, thanks for doing it. This has been a very wild ride, to say the
00:59:40least. I, um, I look back on some of the things that we've gone through and you have unlocked more
00:59:46areas for me to research. So you've given me more work. Thank you for that, Charles, but much more
00:59:51to continue with in the future. And there will be hopefully some good fruit that's, that has come
00:59:57from what we have done. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us
01:00:02out on the web. You can find us at william-branom.org and christiangospelchurch.org. For more about the
01:00:08history of William Branom and the healing revivals, read Come Out of Her My People. And for more about
01:00:12the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian
01:00:17Identity to the NAR, both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:32And for more about the history of William Branom and the healing revivals, read Come Out of Her My People. And for more about the
01:00:48movies that I can have written, read This Tomorrow And we will see you next time. In every
01:01:15We'll see you next time.
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