- 4 months ago
Blue Zones are regions where people live well into old age, often past 100 and in remarkably good health. What makes these communities so resilient? Is it diet? Genes? Or something deeper embedded in their social and cultural fabric? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Belgian demographer Michel Poulain, who initiated the first Longevity Blue Zone in Sardinia more than two decades ago. He is also a Professor Emeritus at UCLouvain in Belgium and a Senior Researcher at the Estonian Institute for Population Studies at Tallinn University.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. I'm here
00:21at the Precision Public Health Asia 2025 conference and my guest today was just a
00:26speaker at the conference, Dr. Michel Poulain, who is a Professor Emeritus at University
00:32of Leuven in Belgium. He's also a Senior Researcher at the Estonian Institute for Population Studies
00:38at Thailand University and 25 years ago, he first initiated the demographic concept of
00:46blue zones, which are regions with exceptional longevity and he has spent decades studying,
00:52exploring what these communities have in common, what they reveal about how we live and how
00:59we age. So I'm delighted to have him on the show. Michel, thank you so much for being here
01:05with me. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. So the term blue zones has entered
01:11the public health vernacular recently and I think many people are aware but they don't quite understand
01:17what it truly means and how the concept was born even. Maybe you could begin there.
01:23Yes. I will try to be short because we don't have three hours in front of us. But it's clear
01:30that when I started to study longevity, it was not my first job because I started as astrophysicist
01:38and then I did some work on migration. But then I, when I was 43, I entered in the field
01:45of longevity study. And the main objective was to be sure that the centenarians are really
01:53100 years old. This is the age validation of centenarians. And there was a meeting of those
02:00researchers in Montpellier in France in 1999. 1999. It's the last interview. And at that meeting,
02:12the Sardinian team arrived and said, oh, in the mountain of Sardinia, we have so many centenarians.
02:19Okay. Then I still remember the coffee break and we were discussing between demographers. Oh,
02:26it's a remote area. There is no document. The men are lying. They are not centenarian. So they,
02:34we decide somebody has to go there. And this somebody, there was not a lot of candidates. I was
02:41the only one and I went there and I arrived. I remember I landed in Alghero on the 20th January 2000.
02:49And I visited a celebration of centenarian and I started to validate. What does it mean,
02:55validate the age of centenarian is to go in municipality to look all the birth record. And in
03:01the margin of the birth record, you have the date of death. And so by difference, you can see if these
03:06people are centenarians or not. So we identify 40 centenarians and validate it. So it was really
03:14against the expectation of my colleagues. It was true. It was true. But it may be the end of the story.
03:22I may come back and say, yes, the centenarians in Sardinia are real centenarians. But what has
03:29happened at that moment is that I say to my colleagues, look on the map, when you have centenarian
03:35in one village, you have also in the neighboring village and again in the neighboring and so on.
03:40And at that moment, I took my blue pen and I shape on the map all the village where they were
03:46centenarian. And from that time, it is named Blue Zone. So I have even I found an old email from April
03:542000, where I discussed with my colleagues about Blue Zone. So the Blue Zone story is already 25 years ago.
04:02So I'm so curious to know what makes Blue Zones exceptional. But before that, can we talk about
04:07age verification? Because it must be really difficult to verify age. And I think that's the basis of any study
04:15of longevity. The first step is age verification. So when you are verifying the ages of centenarians,
04:22how hard is it to prove or to disprove, especially in countries where maybe the record keeping is not
04:29great or they have very, you know, very limited public documents? Exactly. So to validate the age,
04:35you need to find documents, which means you need to have a birth register one century ago, because it should be
04:43at the birth of this centenarian, and to have information in the margin. And all should be consistent.
04:50For example, I have been, I visited the oldest person on earth. That was a man, 114,
04:59114, in Menorca, Spain. Emma Morano, 118, in Italy, and Maria Brañas, 117, in Olot, in Catalonia. And for these
05:13centenarians, I met them. And we need more than the date of birth in the register. We need to
05:21to have information on the whole life, to be sure that there is no error. Just to take an example,
05:29the first man who reached 110, a Dutch named Geert Adrian Baumgart, we found 60 information alongside
05:39his life, 60 information. We know that he was a shepherd, that he went there, that he was born Mary,
05:46and so on. So we have a lot of information that confirmed that we are well facing a person who
05:53reached 110. Age validation is really crucial. And I have an example. In Georgia, Caucasus,
06:02I was there to check about the centenarian, and it was with the company of the president of the retired
06:12person. And he brings us everywhere to find people that were supposed to age 120, 130. And as soon as we
06:20arrived in the village and in the place, the person disappeared. No more. And so the last day, I was
06:27with my host, and he said, oh, my mother is 110. I jump on the roof, because I want to see this mother,
06:36and her name is Marta. So I visited Marta, and she has a Russian passport. And on the Russian passport,
06:44she was born in 1891. And at that moment, we were in 2002, which means by difference, she was 110 years old.
06:53And I start question and so on, okay, but I have only her passport, but it's okay. And unfortunately,
07:00she died six weeks later. That's, that's often the situation with centenarians. When you meet them,
07:06be sure that you answer your question, because they will not survive so long. But what is important
07:12is that two months later, I received some document from a professor from BBC. And these are the family
07:19books that were written in 38, 40, 42, up to 48. And in the oldest one, she was born not in
07:291981, but in 1901. Not in 1891, but in 1901. And I looked the next book, that is
07:40newly written, and it became 1900. And then a bit later, 1895. And finally, 1891. So this is really a
07:51wonderful woman. She succeeded in tenure to be 20 years older. So this is, but it's the proof,
07:58really the proof with document that people may exaggerate their age, for which reason,
08:04we are not yet for well informed. But maybe it was linked to Stalin, because Stalin was very
08:09interested in the longevity in the mountain of Caucasus. So maybe that they push and add that.
08:16But so age validation is number one. And in a lot of countries where it is not possible,
08:23please stop. And I take the example of Cuba. I'm sure that there is longevity in Cuba.
08:29So I went there three times. And when I, the one month I was invited in the municipality,
08:38the birth record was open. I started to check paper page,
08:42and the police arrived and throw me away. No, it's not always possible. Either it is not a law,
08:49or it is not public records, not accessible. Or there are no data, no data.
08:56So Sardinia was the first? Sardinia was the first. And then Costa Rica, or Japan?
09:03One year later, I went to Okinawa, because I met somebody in Vancouver that told me, come,
09:11we have a meeting in Okinawa. So I started, I was in 2001 in Okinawa. And then three years later,
09:18we work with National Geographic for Icaria and Costa Rica. So the two places were promoted as Blue Zone.
09:27Okay.
09:27And more recently, in 2023, I found that Martinique is the fifth Blue Zone. Martinique is a French
09:38colony.
09:38Department. And I have, just to take an example, I visited 10 municipalities to check the document.
09:45But moreover, I have a list of 2,500 centenarians at home with the name and date of birth.
09:512,000?
09:51No. Not living today.
09:54Oh, not today. But in the past, yes. To show that that is an area of longevity.
09:58This is for an area that is less than half million. And so it's quite a lot.
10:03Okay. So, Michelle, talk to me about what are the non-negotiable factors that make a Blue Zone,
10:12a Blue Zone.
10:14Non-negotiable. So, to be a Blue Zone, you should have... So, when I distributed the centenarians
10:21by place of birth, and I may count them. And if you divide their number by the number of newborn,
10:28you have exactly the probability to reach 100. What is the probability for a baby there to become
10:35centenarians? And so, for example, in Sardinia, it may be 1.5, which means 1.5
10:44out of 100, 1.5% will become centenarians. Why? In France, it is less than 1 in metropole.
10:53You see? In Martinique, it is 2.200. And in Okinawa, it's even a bit larger. So, you need to have
11:05this indicator that we name Extreme Longevity Index. And Extreme Longevity Index, this is just the
11:12probability to reach 100. It should be at least 50% higher than the average of the country.
11:20Okay? And it should be also similar to what we saw in Sardinia that was the reference. Sardinia is the
11:27reference, the first one. So, if you have a proposal for me, I will go and try to collect all the data.
11:35It's very important to count how many centenarians by place of birth and to divide by the number of
11:41newborn. And I may tell you if it is true that this is an exceptional situation or not.
11:49The term Blue Zone, do you think that has been diluted by the current wellness craze? So, Blue
11:58Zones have talked about longevity, about living longer. And there seems to be an attempt to
12:04commercialize Blue Zones. What do you think about that, Michel?
12:08This is fully understood. So, my good friend, I see my good friend, Dan Boettner,
12:15with whom I work for Icaria and Costa Rica, always asked me, Michel, do you have a new Blue Zone?
12:23Because he was interested, step by step, to have a new Blue Zone and new books and so on.
12:29But at one moment, he decided to create something in the U.S. and put the trademark on Blue Zone
12:36and started to sell this idea of Blue Zone everywhere in the municipality of the U.S.
12:42And in most of his talk, he say, I discovered the Blue Zone. So, at the beginning, I was not too
12:51disturbed, but at the end of the day, when I saw all the money that he did on my shoulder,
12:58I decided to cut with him because, for me, I am strictly a rigorous and scientist.
13:03I never gained any money on the shoulder of the centenarians, while on the other side,
13:10he gained millions and millions. And that has been pointed out in the recent newspaper,
13:18because the New York Times magazine and the science explained that, in fact, he sold his
13:26company to the Adventists. He built a new company, Blue Zone Kitchen. He did a lot of things. You have
13:32everything with Blue Zone. A lot of money is coming and nothing to do with science. I never received from
13:39him any penny, any dollar to support the investigation. So, your research is really about
13:46understanding what makes an area have extreme longevity. Exactly. Okay. And therefore,
13:54we identify, we observe seven principles that are really the most important that we saw there. So,
14:02it's eat wisely. This is important. Wisely, it's not too much, not a lot of processed food. And this is
14:12very important in your country. The processed food is not the best. Vegetable, fruit, done in season,
14:20but you have a lot of vegetables in the country and fruit. I have seen this. So, no problem to import,
14:27but the most important is to limit the sugar. Okay. So, this is all related to food. Then,
14:34the second one is to exercise. Do, move naturally. Don't forget to move. To do, not fitness, but to move.
14:42It's very important. In the Blue Zone, people are already moving in the village to say hello and so on.
14:50The third one is mostly the contact. You see, have a contact. You have the contact with your family
14:57first. Don't forget this. And then, the second one is to have the contact with the community.
15:02In fact, to live longer and better, you should not forget that you are not alone. You are in a community.
15:10And that's something crucial. And I saw it in Singapore. The contact are really limited. And I'm sure
15:19that in Kuala Lumpur, all the big buildings, you have a really difficult contact between all those
15:27people living in these buildings. So, we should create a place where it is really easy to meet other
15:34person. And then, it will be a real support. And what we want to promote is healthy aging, not at
15:43individual level, but with other persons. Supporting a classroom, a club, a group of people living in the
15:51same place. So, we are also considering the stress that is the most dramatic. You see, you have three
16:00killer. You have the stress, you have the loneliness, people living alone, and you have the food industry.
16:07So, if you suppress this, you will live longer. The problem is not to live longer. It's to live longer
16:13and happier. Happier. So, that's actually really wonderful because it's not just about living longer,
16:20but it's living meaningfully longer. Exactly. And I wanted to ask you about that, based on your
16:25observations, should governments strive to make longevity a policy KPI? Should they make, you know,
16:36having their citizens live longer, is that something they should be proud of? But how do we talk about
16:40meaningfully longer? In fact, the objective is not that everybody will reach 100. And even I decide not
16:49to look anymore on the new blue zone, but I switch to another topic that I named living blue zone.
16:56Living blue zone. And living blue zone, this is how can we implement the lesson of the blue zone
17:01within our society. Right. Because we observe in the mountain, we observe in Ikaria and so on, rules.
17:10How can we apply this in our society? In Kuala Lumpur, for example, how can we... Can it be?
17:16Yeah. And so this is the living blue zone process. It's a process and it should work progressively,
17:24convincing at the community level, how can we improve the quality of life of all people there.
17:30And this is for me really very important for the future. So I don't recommend you to go to live in
17:38Sardinia. You will not succeed to live there, but in the place where you live, try to do maximum,
17:46and that's why we need the support of the authorities, of the local authorities.
17:50Is it possible, Michelle, to implement some of the principles of blue zones in modern urban context?
17:58Yes. Is it? Or do you need that ecological and cultural isolation that some of the blue zones have?
18:06No. It's really important to think about the possibility, how can we implement these principles
18:14in our urban society? So for the food, we should have food that is really natural food.
18:23So to develop the garden around the city so that you may import in a lot of fresh fruit,
18:29fresh vegetables. This is the first point. And to limit, as they did, for example, in Singapore,
18:36they limit the sugar in the drinks. So sugar is really a very bad thing. And obesity is not at the
18:45minimum in Malaysia. So you see, it's a real problem. And we have to start with children.
18:51A lot of things may be non-promoted, just to put an obstacle to a lot of things like that. And
18:58favor moving. Is there any place in the city where you can walk or bike and not only the car? This is
19:07the problem of the balance between the car and the pedestrian. You have a lot of things. And creating
19:14place where people will live together, will meet, will discuss and involve every citizen in this process,
19:21not only the policy maker. Try to discuss with the citizen what are they expecting, what are they
19:27willing to do? Because without the citizen, you will do nothing. So it's the work to be done by
19:33the authorities, but also by the local citizen. And I suggest to do it first at a very limited area
19:41and progressively to go. But you cannot work at Kuala Lumpur as a whole. You have to do, for example,
19:48you have 2000 inhabitants somewhere. Let's try to work together. How can we improve?
19:54Have you seen it succeed? It is possible to succeed. Through government, through engineering
19:59of government population policy. Have you seen it succeed? It's, it has already some positive
20:06point in the US, for example. Yes, it's working. But the problem is that in the US, and then I came back
20:13to Dan Brutner, that he requested a lot of money to do this, then he turned, he turned to a business. This
20:20is, and in my case, this is public health, which means we have to LS. If I was the Minister of Health in
20:29Malaysia, I would really support this idea. And it is not a business, it is just the health and the well-being
20:36of the population. In the 25 years that you have been specifically looking at longevity study,
20:42extreme longevity study, have you seen demographic trends change? Have you seen the way people live
20:50change? There are several important changes. In the blue zone, you have some blue zones that are
20:56disappearing. Just to take an example, in Okinawa, all the generations born after World War II now suffer
21:05from obesity. Why? Because they received the food, the lunchbox, when they were young from the US. It was
21:13US occupation and the food for the children in the school was coming from the US. If you go today in
21:20Okinawa, you will see the old person very thin, very small and very proactive. And then the young
21:27people, when I say young, those who are less than 70 that are really problematic. Okinawa for the below 70
21:37is one of the last prefecture. Why for the oldest old is it is the first one. So this is something that
21:45it seems very, very important. And then in Costa Rica, the same when I was there 20 years ago,
21:55there were no Burger King, no McDonald's. So if you go today, you will see. And even they prefer to drink
22:02a Coke than the natural water or natural juice. This is something really crazy. So some blue zones are
22:09really disappearing and Sardinia is still surviving and Martinique. But there is another topic that
22:18concerns Malaysia. This is aging of the population. You see, the population will progressively age because
22:26you will have less children and you live longer. So the health care will be more and more needed
22:35because you have more. So this is something you have to consider. This is the demographic transition
22:41with more and more old people compared to young ones. That's something. And the last point I want to
22:48say is that for the young people, there are two categories, those who are working and those who are
22:53in school. For those who are working, I will not suggest to compete all the time at all. The competition
23:01between that is very bad. So it brings a lot of stress. And for the young one, this is where you
23:08have to start to learn how to follow the seven principles of the blue zone. If we start with the
23:14children, then their parents will follow and that will be really positive for the world country.
23:20Okay. So just now you said if you were the Minister of Health of Malaysia, you would try to implement some
23:26policies that align with the seven principles. Can I ask you what you would prioritize? How would you
23:32like to see it being implemented? Which one? Some are more interesting than others. What would you
23:40prioritize for Malaysia? It's clear that the sugar revolution is important because I have seen the
23:50obesity there. But I am not yet... I will travel a lot in the country during the next day. I will go to
23:58airport to Cameroon Island then and so on. So I will meet outside of Kuala Lumpur because it's important
24:06to see how people are living around. Absolutely. Because there is two ways of living in city or outside.
24:13And so I am interested to understand what is happening outside. But in city, it's this important
24:20to create situation where people are in contact and they may work together to have a healthy future.
24:28That's important. Not only the policy maker but also the citizen at local level. Yes, society. And
24:35should be promoted. Should be really promoted. Michelle, it's been such a joy talking to you. Thank you so
24:41much for your time. I appreciate it. I hope there will be some change in Malaysia and I'm ready to come back
24:47to see. Maybe there's a blue zone here. Who knows? Thank you. Thank you so much for your time.
24:52That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing
24:57up for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.
Be the first to comment