00:00Jared Verst taking quite a shellacking on the field on Sunday,
00:03getting dumped on his head like a lawn dart from Mason McCormick,
00:06and he's also taking quite a shellacking since that game ended.
00:10Browns fans kind of viewing him as the focal point of their frustrations.
00:16Well, Malik Collins, we missed this clip yesterday
00:19because it was said a little bit later in the show.
00:21Malik Collins talked about his message to Jared Verst
00:24through his own lack of production.
00:26I mean, I've seen every circumstance.
00:28I feel like the league got the offer.
00:30I just encourage him to keep going.
00:31Just keep being himself, but then also when we get out on the field,
00:34to keep working, you know what I'm saying, to keep improving every day.
00:37The league is about constant and never-ending improvement.
00:39How do you get better every day and just take one solid step at a time?
00:42That was pretty generic.
00:45Yeah, also it's kind of a weird question too.
00:48I assumed the question was something like,
00:50so what would you tell Jared to get him out of this funk?
00:53It's like, walk down the hall and tell him yourself.
00:55Well, but pretty generic, and the reason why,
00:57I'm actually saying like that's the right message
01:00because the message is don't stop doing what you're doing.
01:03Don't lose faith.
01:04Keep doing what you're doing.
01:06But we are on the precipice of some very real conversations about Jared Verst,
01:11and I think the Browns have to be open and willing to understand that you look at it
01:18and he had 69% of snaps against Pittsburgh on defense, 63% against Tennessee,
01:2367% against Baltimore, 67%.
01:26We're getting to a point where if the production doesn't get an uptick,
01:29you are going to have to start asking yourself,
01:31is putting him out there that percentage of snaps between 63% and 69%?
01:36Is that the right move?
01:38They should be having that conversation now, but we're in that zone right now.
01:43Well, yeah.
01:43I mean, first you've got to figure out why this is happening
01:45and why he's not the player that everyone said he was going to be coming from the Rams.
01:48Is it him not having enough guys on the line with double-digit sacks
01:52at the end of the season when it's all said and done?
01:53Is it what they're doing with his hand in the dirt versus standing up?
01:57I mean, there's so many things that I feel like they have to identify first.
02:01He's too talented of a player to just start taking away snaps
02:05and diminishing what you think he can be.
02:06He is, but I do think fit matters with a lot of different players in the NFL,
02:13and we might just be getting the proof.
02:15And it is early, and I want to say that before I say the thing I'm about to say
02:18because it's going to be very heavy-handed.
02:20It is early, but there's a chance that he just doesn't fit the wide nine.
02:24And I think you'll get into a fascinating situation
02:27where a year removed from Jim Schwartz, do you want to start changing what you...
02:32I don't think you should.
02:33I think this front nine, this front four works.
02:37I think most of your talent conforms to it.
02:39Certainly, Isaiah McGuire, Alex Wright, Mason Graham, Malik Collins.
02:43Most of the guys you have here work in this and work in a big way.
02:47Michael Hall Jr., Winnie Selfie, works in this front four in a way that makes sense.
02:55But you don't just have questions this year.
02:57I mean, I think certainly you've got the long-term questions about, you know,
03:00when do you start deciding that you're not going to re-sign Jared Verse?
03:04Well, I mean, that's the big question for this offseason is what kind of contract
03:07are you willing to give him?
03:08Are you willing...
03:08It was a foregone conclusion you were going to give him one when you made the trade,
03:11and now it doesn't seem like it's as obvious.
03:13I mean, two years into the NFL, this is just the first chance you get to extend him?
03:18It doesn't mean you have to.
03:18No, you can play it out, obviously, if you want to.
03:21But at some point, you do have to decide whether or not...
03:24If you think it's a scheme problem and you think it's so much to do with the system
03:27that they're running, but at some point, you do have to decide if it fits your system
03:30or you're going to change your system.
03:31I will tell you, from this point on, I'm going to be watching his snap counts every week.
03:37I mean, the Bronx...
03:38Clearly, Ruttenberg takes a Moneyball approach to all this, and what I mean by that is
03:41one of the things with Moneyball was we can get three players, or sorry,
03:45we can get two players to equal what one awesome all-star player can be.
03:50And you can see Ruttenberg is doing that.
03:51He wants the collection of two different players to equal what Miles Garrett was doing as a whole,
03:56or three players to equal what Miles was doing as a whole.
03:58That's why their pressure numbers are insane right now.
04:01Their quarterback sacks are insane right now.
04:04He's getting the production.
04:05He's just doing it between three, four guys instead of just doing it all at one.
04:08And they're blitzing a little bit more, which is another thing that they're doing
04:11that they didn't necessarily have to do under Jim Schwartz.
04:14I actually think that's the two-parter.
04:16I don't expect, by the way, against the Saints, all of a sudden he's going to be at 40%
04:21snaps.
04:21But I think it's going to be interesting to see if we see those numbers alter.
04:25They've been very consistently 60% of snaps or more.
04:28And as the season goes on, if the pressure rates across the entire defensive line swing,
04:35does that impact Jared's playing time and the winning thing?
04:38So much of this has been, well, the defensive line is producing as a whole,
04:41and you're winning, we can kind of just wait on Jared first.
04:46I imagine there is a scenario.
04:48I don't know where it is, and I'd be imagining one and have to get real creative,
04:52but I would imagine there's got to be a scenario where that patience starts to wear down.
04:55So I was looking at this earlier, and oddly enough, their blitz rate is 28%, Nick.
04:58That's 12th lowest in the league.
05:00So they're actually not blitzing a lot, all things considered.
05:02They're getting a lot of pressure, and they're getting a lot of sacks,
05:04and they're getting a lot of hurries.
05:05They're doing all the things.
05:06But Rudenberg is not really blitzing that often.
05:09They blitzed a lot against Pittsburgh.
05:11Okay.
05:12No, they did, because I was looking at...
05:14No, I'm just telling you what the numbers are.
05:15I mean, it's 12th lowest in the league, the 28%.
05:18Like, in the whole of it all, they're not blitzing nearly as often
05:22as what you would think for a team that is getting the numbers they're getting.
05:25216-474-0092.
05:27How much patience should the Browns have with Jared Verz?
05:30And I think when you start to draw back to a bigger picture,
05:34there is then the conversation about how much of a concern the defense is at large.
05:39I think any time you have something where it's apparent teams realize you can run
05:44at the Browns, and it becomes an IQ test, are you just going to keep running at the Browns?
05:50And at least Mike McCarthy had the gumption to say yes.
05:54Tony Pollard had whatever he wanted two Sundays ago.
05:58The last three teams have just kept running at the Browns until the Baltimore Ravens didn't.
06:05I do think if your biggest concern is the run game,
06:09I think a lot of what you've seen the last three weeks can be cleaned up.
06:13I think some of this is an over-aggressive defense.
06:16I think some of this is at points you're getting caught in smaller defensive line formations
06:21because you're trying to be overly aggressive in the pass rush.
06:26By the way, sometimes it's just guys out of position by half a foot.
06:31Well, they sell out is what they do here, and that's why they lead the league in plays
06:35where you have a negative yard total, and they also then lead the league in plays
06:39of 10-plus yards, runs, or more on the season.
06:42They clearly are.
06:43They're a boom or bust defense, and the problem with that right now is that
06:46when you bust out so many times, it becomes painfully obvious what they're trying to do.
06:50But I think those things can be tightened up.
06:54And so until proven otherwise, meaning if we get another three or four games into this
07:00and they're not cleaning up the run game, well, then at some point...
07:03But would you have them not be as aggressive?
07:06I think there are ways you can be aggressive without being too aggressive.
07:10Because clearly what they're doing right now is they are.
07:12They're selling out for the big play, and they're selling out to try to make sure
07:15they get as many negative plays as possible.
07:17That's why, like earlier in the show, we talked about the idea that oftentimes,
07:21even in the Steelers game, there's drives where they look dominant and they look the part.
07:24But then there's other things.
07:25When you sell out that way, you're opening yourself up to some of these big plays
07:30that the Browns have just seen these running backs just be able to muster and be able to do.
07:35It's not their DNA.
07:37Ruttenberg has clearly made it his mission to be as aggressive as possible.
07:41I just wonder if they dial that back a little bit.
07:42It is.
07:44But again, I think there's a line that you're trying to walk,
07:47and I just think the last three weeks proves you're on the wrong side of the line.
07:51Again, I don't think you're ever going to stop being an aggressive defense.
07:55And I don't want to.
07:56I think part of what I love about the wide nine is you just let players pin their ears back
08:01and attack.
08:03But also part of that is, all right, well, clearly we're getting burned on this,
08:06so we need to go ahead and either tighten things up.
08:09Sometimes aggressiveness can be a problem, right?
08:12That was one of the big things that Coach Riz always got on Schwestinger in year one,
08:17the over-pursuit of it all.
08:20So do you think it's a problem?
08:21Yeah, I think the defense is a problem right now.
08:23I think the run defense is a major problem right now.
08:25And I don't know that they're going to dial it back
08:27and not be as aggressive as what we've seen.
08:29They clearly want this to be their DNA, and it's burning them.
08:31So not to try and pick apart.
08:33I think it's fair to say it's a concern right now.
08:36I just think it can be fixed.
08:38Maybe that's where it's like, I think you and I are in lockstep.
08:41It's like, all right, yeah, you have what happened to you at 27 points.
08:46It could have been 50 points.
08:48On Sunday, it has to be a concern, specifically when you continue to see the same issues.
08:54I just feel like this to me isn't as alarming as like, let's say week one,
09:00where it was like, oh, you played more zone in that game
09:04than I feel like you did the previous season entirely.
09:06That felt like I'm not going to use the talent that I have in a way that makes sense
09:11with what their gifts are.
09:12This, I think, is an identity thing.
09:14Or this, I think, is a habit thing.
09:16And again, I think good defenses and good defensive coordinators can clear that up.
09:20I also think Rudy's still a young defensive coordinator that's learning,
09:24and sometimes he gets ahead of himself.
09:26And I think other offensive coaches pick up on that.
09:30And I think he did get picked on by a superior, experienced offensive mind on Sunday.
09:36And I can't believe I'm saying that about Mike McCarthy.
09:38Well, and it also doesn't help that in the past few weeks where we've talked about
09:41these running backs that are just gashing and just really just taking over these games,
09:45it's all exactly what these teams wanted to do
09:47and what their game plan would have been regardless.
09:49It feeds into that, Nick.
09:50The Titans don't want Cam Ward to throw a bunch.
09:52That's not their game plan.
09:53And the Steelers don't really want Aaron Rodgers to throw a bunch.
09:56That's not their game plan either.
09:57Jalen Warren is their game plan right now.
09:59And so we just kind of hit the worst end of it all.
10:02Let's go with John in Akron.
10:04John, how concerned are you about the Browns' defense?
10:07How concerned are you about Jared Verse?
10:10I'm not really concerned about Verse per se,
10:13but I am concerned about our lack of run defense.
10:18We're getting gashed, and teams are going to recognize that,
10:21and they're going to take advantage of that.
10:23In terms of Verse, I think we're a little too focused on his stack numbers
10:28or lack thereof.
10:29I think he attributes more to our defensive scheme,
10:33and I think he's still a big part of how offenses scheme against us.
10:39What do you guys think?
10:40So I guess my thing would be, if he's not getting to the quarterback
10:43and the Browns have run defensive issues and he's a defensive lineman,
10:47what do you think he contributes to the Browns,
10:50the kind of value that you're talking about?
10:53Well, I think he does present quarterback pressures and quarterback hurries,
11:00which should allow other defensive players to get back.
11:04But he doesn't right now, though.
11:05That's the problem.
11:05It's like we got the numbers on this.
11:07He's not doing quarterback hurries or pressures,
11:09and it's nowhere close to the rate that he was at the first two years in the NFL.
11:14So what do you think?
11:15That we should just take him off the field?
11:17I think there will become a point this year where you have to start doing that
11:20if your pressure rate fall across the defense or if you start losing too many games.
11:25I disagree with that, by the way.
11:27I don't take him off the field.
11:28I try to figure this thing out with him.
11:30He's too talented not to try it, but I also need to know whether or not I need to pay
11:33him next year.
11:34So here's the thing, and John, we appreciate you.
11:37Thank you, John.
11:38I think you can still give him opportunities to figure it out.
11:41And I don't think we're there yet, by the way.
11:43I would expect he's still in the 60% to 70% snap percentage rate there.
11:51That's where I expect him against the Saints.
11:53This feels like a let's get to the bye and then look back at this.
11:57But, I mean, if there is just a basic analysis here, up front, face value.
12:04What really succeeds in the wide nine defense?
12:07Quick first step.
12:09What is Jared Verst known for?
12:11Power.
12:13What is he not known for?
12:15Having the quickest first step in the NFL.
12:17That doesn't mean he can't do it, by the way.
12:19It means he has to adapt to it.
12:21He has to find his rhythm in it.
12:22And at some point, that has to matter this year.
12:25Right, with a bet on why they made the trade is because they thought it would be the transition that
12:29he could make.
12:29And I would be surprised, in a season like this, where you really can just try to find out who
12:36your guys are for next year,
12:38who you guys are for the next couple years, and really, whether or not you, again, want to pay one
12:41of the better parts
12:42or supposed to be better parts of your defense, I'll give him the snaps to figure it out.
12:46I'll give him the reps to go ahead and try to figure that out because it could pay off tenfold
12:49if you get it right.
