Should the Yankees Move on from Aaron Boone After Another Failed Season?

Name: Should the Yankees Move on from Aaron Boone After Another Failed Season? | Pinstripe Post
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00:00:00It's a drive by Derry Dawson. Charles Chisholm goes deep.

00:00:09Hello, welcome to the Pinstripe Post. My name is Ryan Sampson. He's the star of the show, Joel Sherman.

00:00:13Today is Friday, October 9th. Joel, since the last time we spoke with you,

00:00:17the Yankees were swept by the Tampa Bay Rays in the American League Division Series in ugly fashion.

00:00:22A lot of the reaction amongst, I've read from you, from John, from all the baseball pundits,

00:00:28and also from the fans themselves. It's ugly out there right now in Yankees land.

00:00:33But listen, today I think is going to be a show about you and I just really explain.

00:00:38I would love, one, to get your perspective. I've heard you on MLB Network. I've heard you on the show.

00:00:43I want to get your full assessment now a couple days after the fact of where this Yankees team stand,

00:00:48how you view the season went, and ultimately the future of where this could go.

00:00:52Because I know there's a lot of things up in the air in terms of are we going to have

00:00:56a baseball season next year

00:00:57and how that can affect everything.

00:00:59But before we get to any of that, as always, Joel Sherman, how you doing, buddy?

00:01:04Yeah, good. I thought that this was going to be at least a deep run by the Yankees.

00:01:13I think one of the things you have to come to peace with if you're a Yankee fan like yourself

00:01:19or you're covering the sport is Tampa Bay is just better than them.

00:01:25You know, we can play the payroll game.

00:01:28It's an easy narrative.

00:01:31And let's play it if you want.

00:01:34But the reality is the payroll of the Rays reflects the business of baseball.

00:01:39Right. If Junior Caminero was actually just a free agent, he'd be making 50 or 60 million dollars a year.

00:01:45Right. Drew Rasmussen would be making 40.

00:01:50Yandy Diaz and Aranda, Jonathan Aranda would be making 25 each.

00:01:55Brian Baker would be making 25.

00:01:56In other words, the way the game is shaped, they shove all that talent into 100 million dollar payroll.

00:02:05You know, and in the real world, Trent Grisham would be making two.

00:02:08Ryan McMahon would be making two.

00:02:10You know, Jazz Chisholm would be making five, you know, or whatever it is.

00:02:15And so when you see it lined up on the field, the talent is a lot closer than the payroll.

00:02:26And they're just a better team.

00:02:29And the fact that they're a more cohesive, more confident team reflects poorly on the institution that is the New

00:02:38York Yankees.

00:02:40They they they they have reached the same.

00:02:44It is Groundhog Day.

00:02:45They reach the same point.

00:02:47They lose the same way every time.

00:02:50And I know we'll dig into it.

00:02:52So I don't won't go off on a big monologue on it, except to say there is a crapshoot element

00:02:59to this all.

00:03:01Uh, the Volade, Ryan Volade hits a high pop up that's a home run in one of 30 stadiums.

00:03:10Right.

00:03:11And Spencer Jones misses it by a few inches.

00:03:15Sure.

00:03:16Anthony Volpe hits a ball that could be a tight two run homer and it doesn't go out.

00:03:21You know, it gets interfered with because there's replay now and there wasn't replay 30 years ago.

00:03:26So Derek Jeter gets to be a hero and we know Jeffrey Mayer's name, etc.

00:03:31So there is that.

00:03:33But at some point you keep going to the tournament and you keep losing.

00:03:37In similar fashion.

00:03:39In a similar fashion.

00:03:40I take some of the crapshoot, if not a big part of it out, which is you just haven't figured

00:03:47out how to manage it, form it.

00:03:52And mentally tough it through this time of year.

00:03:57And again, I know we'll talk about all this, but I just I think that this ending was should be

00:04:04unacceptable.

00:04:05Yeah.

00:04:06To the Yankees institution.

00:04:10Because it was unacceptable.

00:04:13Yeah, I think unacceptable is a fair word.

00:04:16You know, failure would be another way to describe this in terms of just the fashion of how they went

00:04:21out.

00:04:22And yeah, I hear you on the roster building construction part to Joel and the economics of baseball.

00:04:28But, you know, I think there's also this point of you are and you know this more than anyone.

00:04:34The Yankees are considered the premier franchise in sports, baseball, however you want to label them.

00:04:40They're right there with the Dodgers, the Mets now, too, with the amount of money they spend on their team.

00:04:44It's not just the roster itself.

00:04:47It's also the infrastructure, the analytics teams and the scouting.

00:04:52They spend a ton of money to support this team to try to get to their end goal.

00:04:57And the fact that none of that money really matters because at the end of the day, the product that

00:05:02was put out there, Joel, like you said, it ended up the same way it has the last four seasons,

00:05:08I would argue, where you can't win games on the road in the postseason.

00:05:11You come back home down 2-0, whatever, and you watch the opposing team win on your home turf.

00:05:18And I'm seeing the same things, Joel, that you had uttered to us on this very show two years ago.

00:05:25Ryan, the scouting report is out on them.

00:05:27The Dodgers are just saying play clean baseball and force them to play clean baseball.

00:05:34And they lost because of that.

00:05:36And the fact that that has been such a huge factor in these postseason, it's alarming that it hasn't been

00:05:43corrected.

00:05:44And I'm curious for you, is it more, because this is the whole Aaron Boone of it all, I think,

00:05:52too.

00:05:52Is this a poor reflection on the manager, one?

00:05:55And two, is there a certain point, Joel, where you can only drill it into these guys' heads so many

00:06:02times, right?

00:06:02Like you could say it in meetings.

00:06:03You can say it in front of the clubhouse.

00:06:05You could say it in one-on-ones.

00:06:06You could try to discipline these guys, but if some of them just don't take the information in and refuse

00:06:13to make those adjustments and play clean baseball and be focused and do the routine, like you say so much

00:06:19on this show, do the routine, make it easy for you.

00:06:22If they can't do that, is that more a reflection on the personnel that the Yankees went out and got

00:06:28and didn't scout enough in terms of this guy that you want to trade for, this guy that you want

00:06:34to give a contract to?

00:06:35I don't think he's ever going to want to play baseball clean because he doesn't find that to be the

00:06:41norm for him, and that's too much for him, if that makes sense.

00:06:45Yeah, well, there's a lot there.

00:06:47Can I just say one overriding thing that isn't going to matter to you or Yankee fans, which is they're

00:06:55a little bit like pick your team, the old Buffalo Bills, the old Atlanta Braves, which is like I certainly

00:07:02have a lot of Yankee fans in my life like you, and they keep you, oh, they suck, they suck,

00:07:06terrible.

00:07:06Like they're really good, like those Braves teams were.

00:07:12It's just they're going to be judged by the goal line, and I think you saw the other day.

00:07:18I referred to them for a second straight year as the red zone Yankees.

00:07:21They're really good at getting to about the 13-yard line, and they could see the goal line.

00:07:27It's first down from the 13.

00:07:28They can't get in.

00:07:30It's first down from the 8.

00:07:31They can't get in.

00:07:31So they're a team good enough to get to the point where we pay attention to them.

00:07:36Like right now, there is a reaction to the Yankees that is more overwhelmingly that they suck than to like

00:07:45the Mets, who had a much more disappointing year.

00:07:49So there's that.

00:07:51Number two, the Yankees lost the series in part by the brand of baseball that, yes, let's talk about it,

00:08:01but that they're supposed to play.

00:08:03Yeah.

00:08:03The Rays hit three homers.

00:08:05The Yankees hit two.

00:08:06The Yankees lost this series because of home runs.

00:08:10They lost game one, won nothing.

00:08:12The team that hit a homer won the game.

00:08:15They lost four to three the other day.

00:08:17They lost two one-run games.

00:08:19The Rays hit two homers.

00:08:21Volpe's ball did not go out.

00:08:23They won.

00:08:25At this time of year, the ball has to go out.

00:08:27So they also lost their game.

00:08:30Yeah.

00:08:30I see what you're saying.

00:08:31I see what you're saying.

00:08:32So if they had homers in this series, we might not like how they got to the number.

00:08:39Correct.

00:08:39But they would have won the series maybe.

00:08:42If somebody besides Ben Rice had shown up to play baseball in the series, they might have won the series.

00:08:49I think that they are a better defensive team than they were in 24.

00:08:55Like there were improvements made.

00:08:58But either you live the life or you don't.

00:09:02The Rays live the life.

00:09:06Taylor Walls is playing shortstop for the Rays.

00:09:08Like, no, I have a feeling if Taylor Walls was a Yankee, Yankee fans would pull their hair out about

00:09:15him being when he bats.

00:09:17Because he's not offensively a threat at the plate.

00:09:19He's the worst offensive player in the league pretty much, right, who gets regular at-bats.

00:09:24But they lead the life.

00:09:26Like they are willing.

00:09:27They're saying that position is so important and this player isn't good.

00:09:32He's brilliant.

00:09:33And that brings a value to what is done that he's got to be on the field.

00:09:37Would Yankee fans accept that?

00:09:39I guess if there's a title at the end of it, they would.

00:09:42Right.

00:09:42But I have an overarching thing.

00:09:45Sure.

00:09:46Which is you – it's about the talk to talk.

00:09:53So I am in Yankee spring training every year.

00:09:56And I can tell you that the past two years in specific, the Yankees did work on the finer points

00:10:03of the game.

00:10:04I believe that pretty much in April and May of both of those years, they played a cleaner, headier version

00:10:14of the sport.

00:10:16And then because you either walk the walk or you don't, I think that Major League Baseball, because there's 162

00:10:27games, the inventory never stops.

00:10:30And to play baseball well, you've got to do the routine that is boring, if you think it's boring, over

00:10:38and over again.

00:10:38You've got to care about it.

00:10:40And it's an example I think I've used on this show a lot and a lot of people use.

00:10:45The Dodgers are still playing baseball.

00:10:48If you go to the ballpark three to four hours before a Dodger game, Freddie Freeman and Mookie Betts are

00:10:56on the field every day taking extra infield.

00:10:59They're in their 30s.

00:11:01They are Hall of Famers.

00:11:03They have the teammate.

00:11:04And they set a culture about, is it important?

00:11:09Yeah, it's important.

00:11:11At about late May, early June every year, the Yankees kind of go, you know, this is hard.

00:11:20Why don't we hit a bunch of homers and strike guys out and we'll win 93 games because we're a

00:11:26casino baseball team and we know how to play that analytic game and do that.

00:11:30And we wonder, why do they have the June swoon, the July malaise?

00:11:35Because I think they stop playing a clean game.

00:11:39Then they're just talented enough where in August and September they get it together again by just out-talenting teams

00:11:46that have quit on the season and they collect enough wins.

00:11:50And if all you're doing is counting your chips in a casino and you're not watching the baseball, you're like,

00:11:57we're good.

00:11:58And I'm like, no, you are now going to face those shitty teams come off your schedule.

00:12:05And why do they, they have the same playoff every time.

00:12:11Inferior teams, especially from the AL Central, fall at their knees.

00:12:15The first time it's a fight because they're not mentally tough enough.

00:12:21They're not fundamentally sharp enough.

00:12:26They lose the series, every one of them, not some, all of them.

00:12:33And I think that's about culture.

00:12:36I think it's about mental toughness.

00:12:38It's about all the things you can't at this moment graft.

00:12:43You can't put on a piece of paper.

00:12:46You can't casino baseball.

00:12:48The, the, the, when we say the rays are fundamentally sound, it is boring to run your ass off 90

00:12:58feet over and over again.

00:13:00But you know what?

00:13:01It puts pressure on the other team.

00:13:02And if it's your culture on May 1st and June 1st and July 1st and August 1st and September 1st,

00:13:10then it's also your culture on, on October 1st.

00:13:13You can't flip a switch and say, now it matters.

00:13:17It's got to matter every second.

00:13:20And when you're good enough, the Yankees could fool themselves every year.

00:13:23They're going to be good enough to win 90 games.

00:13:26The teams that are going to get through, it's not just the small rays and brewers, which it is, but

00:13:36the Dodgers are just much more on it, sharp.

00:13:42You can't just check a box.

00:13:44It's got to be your culture, which is, and, and so you asked an important question in that, Ryan, which

00:13:52is, you know, you help lead a department.

00:13:56I've worked with a lot of people.

00:13:58To me, it's very hard to tell somebody who doesn't care to care.

00:14:03Yes.

00:14:03And so, and so I think I start at management and say, you, you got the more talented guy.

00:14:14Did you get the better guy?

00:14:16Did you get the guy who, when, when it becomes a mental toughness game, because you got to do this

00:14:25routine thing every day for 250 straight days from the beginning of spring.

00:14:29Is that your guy, or is it, no, I'm going to, should I run hard this time?

00:14:36And I just think that's who they've become.

00:14:38So I start at management, not, that when it becomes this, this guy versus this guy, it becomes the talented

00:14:46guy.

00:14:46And I think this gets too often.

00:14:50Yep.

00:14:50Do I exonerate Boone and the leadership?

00:14:54I do not.

00:14:55Because you still, if you're running your department, you still have to figure out how to lean on that person

00:15:02and make them understand that the effort is not good enough.

00:15:08And I think the Yankees now exist in a world that I would describe as unreality.

00:15:17They have created an incubator of trying to keep negative news out that, that, that has fostered a fake positivity

00:15:32and a cliche ridden level of nonsense.

00:15:36Not just to me, but I think within the institution with each other, they're gaslighting each other, Joel.

00:15:42They're literally gaslighting each other.

00:15:44That is just not acceptable.

00:15:47Talent for talent.

00:15:48The Yankees stand with anyone.

00:15:50Sure.

00:15:51But when the going gets tough, the Yankees play golf.

00:15:54Yeah.

00:15:55Yeah.

00:15:56It's a, it's a well-said point by you.

00:15:58It, it, it, you can see it.

00:16:00You can feel it.

00:16:02Um, and I think nothing embodies that more.

00:16:04And I hate to pick on him because he, he came out of this series, probably the worst looking of

00:16:10them all with, with jazz Chisholm.

00:16:11But the, after game two, the comments that he makes on, if you were to, to make that play again

00:16:18in the first inning to throw to first.

00:16:20And he goes, yeah, I probably would.

00:16:22But that right there feels like a symbolic of this clubhouse, this culture of, it's okay you made a mistake,

00:16:30but don't do it again.

00:16:32And it's not, not harsh enough, right?

00:16:34Like, it feels like, and by the way, this goes into a much deeper thing.

00:16:38I feel like sometimes with these athletes where it's like, you don't understand, you'll never play the game, blah, blah,

00:16:42blah, blah, blah.

00:16:43It's like, and, and there is an ultra sensitivity to it because you are the gladiators out there going out

00:16:49on the line.

00:16:49You're also getting paid a lot of money to do these things.

00:16:52So you open yourself up to that criticism because that is what our culture has bred here when it comes

00:16:57to sports and professionalism is you are the athlete, you're the God, but we are the people that watch and

00:17:03view you.

00:17:04And yes, we make a living out of critiquing and saying, that's something that you actually have control over.

00:17:09That wasn't something crazy where, you know, the, the sand got kicked up in your face or something crazy happens.

00:17:15What happened was, is you had the ball in your hand and you had the opportunity to hold it and

00:17:19eat it and not make a dumb throw like that.

00:17:22And then you come out afterwards and say, yeah, I would do it again.

00:17:25It's a poor reflection.

00:17:26I feel like on you as a character person, but also I question Aaron Boone in that point where it's

00:17:31like, how are you letting this happen?

00:17:33Like, how are you okay with this guy basically saying, yeah, I'm good with effing up and I could do

00:17:39it again.

00:17:40And it wasn't just that it was the Austin Wells rounding second.

00:17:43Your manager, your third base coach is literally telling you to stop.

00:17:46And when you're asked in the post game, would you do it again?

00:17:49I don't know.

00:17:50I was in the heat of the moment like that to me, Joel's like, it's a simple, no, I wouldn't

00:17:55do it again because that was really dumb of me.

00:17:57That's where I feel like there's like a, maybe a disconnect between the management and the players that they have

00:18:02bred this culture in.

00:18:04And like you said, you're, you're, you're, I think you're highlighting something very important here.

00:18:08There is this acceptance of don't listen to the negative.

00:18:11You guys are doing the right thing.

00:18:13You're super talented.

00:18:14We'll get our way through this with the talent.

00:18:18Yeah.

00:18:19Look, I don't want to, cause I certainly don't lead a life of military, military precision or anything.

00:18:26But like when a parent does the, Hey, make your bed, clean your room, make sure your shoes are clean,

00:18:34make sure your clothes are ready for the next day.

00:18:36Is your homework done?

00:18:39It's about the discipline.

00:18:42It's like, yeah, if you're better, it's made or not, you're going to sleep in it tonight.

00:18:47The question is about the discipline you're teaching a child to be ready for the day.

00:18:53Uh, let's deal with jazz first.

00:18:57Sure.

00:18:57Uh, I was broken record on this show to probably the unpopularity level of some because they like 22 and

00:19:0511 in a basketball box score and don't care if it helped the team win.

00:19:10Or if you were Stefan Marbury and it didn't, uh, jazz Chisholm is 22 and 11 and he's Stefan Marbury.

00:19:17Uh, I, I think I was the only one in print who did not like this trade on the day

00:19:23they made it.

00:19:23I've been on the show a lot.

00:19:25I saw jazz play at city field plenty as a Marlin when I was at Met games.

00:19:30Uh, it is going to be, if, if it is not fun for him, like, like he's going to play

00:19:38the game.

00:19:39And part of the thing is, and I would challenge, challenge is the wrong word.

00:19:43I would ask because I'm not talented enough to do it.

00:19:46Like the, the folks that like John boy or someplace like that, that was not the first time that jazz

00:19:52Chisholm made a pivot that looked like that.

00:19:55Now, again, I ask people, baseball is about doing the routine.

00:20:01Well, over and over the same way, you know, like, like if you're doing like figure skating, you can't suddenly

00:20:09decide, watch how I'm going to do this new one.

00:20:11Like you've got to land the routine over.

00:20:15So, so that is not, go look at that double play pivot again.

00:20:19That's a fall away three pointer while you're high fiving somebody like that is not going to work in an

00:20:25NBA game aside.

00:20:26And he did that pivot.

00:20:29I would say three to five times this year.

00:20:31And I would say all of them ended poorly.

00:20:34So it was a not either, either it was addressed and ignored or not addressed.

00:20:41Dude, if you're going to throw it like that,

00:20:43this was not a pivot where he came across hurried and threw the ball in the stands, because here's the

00:20:48thing.

00:20:49If he comes across and looks, he has so no chance at completing the double play.

00:20:54He would just eat the ball.

00:20:57No, he's got to, you know what?

00:20:59It's not, it's fun to do it as awkward and let's see if this is doing it, then I'll snap,

00:21:04you know, like there's fun and fundamentals.

00:21:11I want the fundamentals.

00:21:13Baseball is a routine oriented sport.

00:21:15Like, and that it, it, it was not cleaned up during the season because either it was ignored by him

00:21:24or ignored by the Yankees.

00:21:26But there also was not ever anything done to get this player's attention as far as the GM of the

00:21:36team, the owner of the team, the manager of the team, or the captain of the team.

00:21:41At some point saying we have watched this for two and a half years, if it is being addressed internally,

00:21:47it is being ignored.

00:21:50So if I'm the owner or the GM, I've got to find a way to get them off my roster

00:21:55or say something publicly.

00:21:59If I'm the manager, I've got to bench him or say something publicly.

00:22:04If I'm the captain, I, and I've done this privately, then I have to say something publicly about it because

00:22:14I have not gotten his attention.

00:22:16And the answer might be, I'm never getting Jazz Chiffon's attention.

00:22:20If that's the case, your GM either needs to get him off the roster or your manager needs to put

00:22:26him on the bench.

00:22:27That he is a one step forward, two step back player.

00:22:31That didn't happen.

00:22:32The Austin Wells play is, Wells I think is generally a heady player, is totally unacceptable.

00:22:41And I think that it was not dealt with either well, because I think that there was a little bit

00:22:52of, hey, we weren't scoring.

00:22:55So if he gets a third base and you get a wild pitch, then like, so it doesn't have to

00:22:59be a hundred percent.

00:23:00Yeah, it's got to be a hundred percent.

00:23:02It's got to be, he's got to be able to crawl to third base there safely.

00:23:06If not, I would even say that in a situation like that, it's a, the idea isn't to check a

00:23:15box.

00:23:16Okay.

00:23:17It is not to check a box.

00:23:19Luis Rojas is doing the right thing.

00:23:21He's holding him.

00:23:22But maybe Luis Rojas needs to be jumping up and down and holding up again.

00:23:26Everything is about the best teams in the world are playing.

00:23:29You're going to lose it.

00:23:31They lost games one and three by one run.

00:23:33There is some finer detail in all of this.

00:23:37It isn't about like Luis Rojas did nothing wrong.

00:23:41Did he do everything he could right?

00:23:44Where it's like, hey, it's the heat of the moment where your third base coach has to kind of be

00:23:48cool under this pressure.

00:23:49You're also going to say, holy cow, it looks like he's, like, don't do this.

00:23:55Be more demonstrative.

00:23:57Because, like, in real time, I'm sitting in the press box and I've got to say it's the best press

00:24:07box in the major leagues.

00:24:09Don't change, Rays.

00:24:10I know you're moving.

00:24:11Really?

00:24:12Oh, my God.

00:24:13It's such a great view and got a little space as opposed to most of the newer ones.

00:24:19So I'm sorry for that selfish moment.

00:24:21But it also, because it's such a great press box, it gives you better than any other, I think, the

00:24:27full panorama.

00:24:29And when I saw him turn third, I, like, turned and said, he's going to be out by 20 feet.

00:24:33You mean turn second, right?

00:24:34I'm sorry.

00:24:35Yeah, when he turned second.

00:24:36It's like I couldn't believe it.

00:24:40Like, it was, like, it actually happened in slow motion where I was, like, he's going.

00:24:44He's got no shot.

00:24:46And if you notice, Walls goes, gets the relay from shortstop.

00:24:49You know, again, like, where does it – it's like the shortstop coming across to the right fielder as opposed

00:24:54to the second baseman lining up into it or something.

00:24:57So it's, like, where does Taylor Walls show up in this?

00:25:00Oh, there.

00:25:02He's going to – he's about to ground out again, but the runner didn't reach third base.

00:25:09And he didn't even get to second base by the time the downfitter was on the ball.

00:25:13It should just be unacceptable.

00:25:18And that felt very much heat of the moment.

00:25:23Not that it's – if I were playing the what's more pardonable, I would be like, neither.

00:25:29But if I got to rank them, I see how it's the first hit of the game.

00:25:34You're, like, what if I get to third?

00:25:37There's an overthrow at third.

00:25:39Like, you're playing – Ryan, I just said it's unacceptable.

00:25:44I know.

00:25:44It's impardonable.

00:25:45It's unbelievable.

00:25:47But the thing is, I've literally seen that jazz pivot before.

00:25:51Yes.

00:25:51I've literally seen it before.

00:25:53But we've seen the base path running too where it's just – it's unacceptable where it's, like –

00:25:57And so the fact that it hasn't cleaned up because the player hasn't cleaned it up or the institution hasn't

00:26:03cleaned it up, it's just –

00:26:05and I think people who kill analytics actually don't know what analytics is.

00:26:12It covers so many things.

00:26:13And I also think that people don't understand that if you're not great at it, you can't win in the

00:26:19game.

00:26:19But the question is, can you marry it to a, hey, we understand now how to spin the ball more,

00:26:29how to go after certain targets in the strike zone more, how to emphasize –

00:26:35Like, here's something the Yankees were really good at.

00:26:37Nobody stole third base more, and nobody stole third base more efficiently than the Yankees.

00:26:43They had certain tells that they had video stuff on that they were really good at it.

00:26:49So there was something finer that they were good at.

00:26:51So it's like if you're not maximizing that game, you are going to be way behind.

00:26:58You're going to be a mom-and-pop store.

00:27:00Like, the Brewers, Rays, and Dodgers, I would argue, are more analytical than the Yankees.

00:27:07But what they also are more at is understanding the culture of maximizing players.

00:27:16Like, if you talk to Rays people, they are forever talking about their clubhouse.

00:27:22You know, and I think that the outside belief is, oh, the Rays are numbering it up.

00:27:28I don't think they're numbering it up.

00:27:29I think that they are applying humanity to maximize the other stuff.

00:27:40I think that the Yankees missed some stuff in the cracks.

00:27:44And then I think they create a level of unreality because I think that there's a lot of important

00:27:49people with the Yankees, including their captain, who want no negativity in that world.

00:27:55And I'm here to tell you that I think the Knicks are champions because Tom Thibodeau was

00:28:01tough on them and toughened them up.

00:28:04And then when it was needed at the end for Mike Brown to bring together the group to have

00:28:10a fight with one another and get through it, he did.

00:28:13If all you're trying to do is suck the negativity out of a room, I think, and the outside world,

00:28:21like, I get it.

00:28:22Social media is a bastard.

00:28:24The world could crush on you.

00:28:26But, like, you're going to play games under extreme pressure.

00:28:30And to try to create a world of nothing but utter happiness, I think, is a mistake.

00:28:36And I would say this, too, Joel, just because, you know, you want to expel the negativity

00:28:44out of the locker room.

00:28:44I get it.

00:28:45But I think there's also this point of fans, media.

00:28:51We watch this team year in, year out.

00:28:54It's the same story for four straight years.

00:28:56And you can go even further back with the Boone era of how this team and culture was bred

00:29:01is that it's this acceptance of we made mistakes.

00:29:04It's OK.

00:29:06Don't make it again.

00:29:07But it still happens.

00:29:08And then the fundamentals of baseball, when you see those things happen, it's frustrating.

00:29:14And the fact that this team starts out hot every year, has the June swoon, struggles through

00:29:20the summer months, and then they get hot again at the end, and then they falter in the playoffs

00:29:24because they just can't play baseball well.

00:29:26I've seen that story now for straight years.

00:29:29Because I'm going to be ultra negative on you guys when you do it again.

00:29:32So you've given us no room to, oh, you know what?

00:29:36This year was different.

00:29:37They didn't lose because they didn't play baseball well.

00:29:38They just lost because there's a better team across them.

00:29:41That, to me, is where I think there's a huge disconnect between the organization and how

00:29:46everyone else is viewing them right now in terms of how they operate.

00:29:50Let's talk about...

00:29:52Can I...

00:29:53So I want to say that fundamentals are, also fall under the umbrella to me of mental toughness

00:30:03and mental sharpness.

00:30:04Absolutely.

00:30:04And I just think that that feels like the in the crack stuff for them.

00:30:11Like, oh, I could get sprinkles on the cone also.

00:30:14I mainly want the ice cream.

00:30:16And they see that as, I think, too many important people there see it as the extra, as opposed

00:30:24to that it's literally the grout keeping up your building.

00:30:29And, like, if you don't...

00:30:31If you are not watching the teams that survive every year and the teams that beat you, like,

00:30:37the Yankees should be ashamed of how, when the going gets tough, the other team is tougher.

00:30:45The Rays have...

00:30:47The Rays just stood up to them and said, come on.

00:30:50Like, it's a fight.

00:30:51Who's going to break?

00:30:52It's not only break fundamentally, which they do, but they break.

00:30:57They break.

00:30:58They are more mentally and physically mistake-prone than the other team.

00:31:07And, you know, like, it is interesting, and it's maybe, are we colored by success?

00:31:15Yes.

00:31:16But if I were the Yankees...

00:31:19So, let's go back.

00:31:22The last time the Yankees were great, great, the dynasty years.

00:31:25Yeah.

00:31:25I would say this.

00:31:27The two things happened that I think toughened them up.

00:31:32Buck Showalter was Tom Thibodeau.

00:31:35He couldn't get them to the goal line either, but I think Buck Showalter made every detail and

00:31:43eventually wore out his welcome like Thibodeau.

00:31:45Like, but that young version of Showalter, that first version of Showalter where he would

00:31:50not let anything slide, where it was like he could...

00:31:54And you heard...

00:31:55I saw a video that went viral recently of Adam Jones talking about when Buck was the

00:32:00Oriole manager and saying to him, you're the best player on my team and that's how you're

00:32:05going to play?

00:32:06You're not going to run a ball out?

00:32:08Like, the confrontation of it all.

00:32:10And Jones talking about it like five, six years after his career ended about defining

00:32:16his career.

00:32:17So like, can you reach a player?

00:32:19Can you reach Jack?

00:32:20I don't know, but you got to try.

00:32:22So there.

00:32:22So I think Showalter toughened up and sharpened a Yankee team and handed it to a more fatherly,

00:32:31Boone-like figure in Torrey, but they had a more finished kind of product.

00:32:35And the other thing is, and I don't know how you get this lucky, nobody is going to have

00:32:40a class of players come from the minor leagues as good as that Yankee team was, which is nobody's

00:32:46ever gone into the Hall of Fame with a higher percentage of votes than Rivera and Jeter.

00:32:50And Pettit, Bernie, Williams, and Posada are ballot guys who were serious considerations.

00:32:55I mean, to have a quarter of your team, you know, 20% of your team come from the farm

00:33:00system

00:33:00essentially at the same time, play through their prime together, like players that good

00:33:05or not.

00:33:05But the thing that made Rivera and Jeter stand out is, I think anybody who played

00:33:10with them or against them would tell you they were the mentally toughest guys.

00:33:14They would just like the blessing of their talent and their fortitude and their belief

00:33:20of, yeah, great.

00:33:22We're playing the biggest game.

00:33:23The other team is in trouble.

00:33:25We're going to win.

00:33:25Like they were, because they were nice guys, people did not realize what incredible assassins

00:33:31those guys were.

00:33:32If I was trying to be encouraged right now, and I know there's a moment Yankee fans don't

00:33:37in a way want to be encouraged, is I kind of like how mentally tough Rice

00:33:40and Schlittler are.

00:33:41Oh my God.

00:33:41Both of those guys.

00:33:42Like, like, like those guys were like, oh, there's a fight.

00:33:46Cool.

00:33:47Cool.

00:33:48And I wonder if the institution that is the Yankees points at those guys and says, this,

00:33:59this, this is the attitude.

00:34:01And it's somewhat colored by, I mean, one guy's going to win the Cy Young.

00:34:05The other guy's going to finish like five to eight in the MVP someplace in there probably.

00:34:09And then both were really good in the playoffs again.

00:34:12And, you know, like, but they're there for the fight.

00:34:16Yeah.

00:34:16And I just wonder how many Yankees are talking themselves that they're there for the fight

00:34:23and how many are there.

00:34:24Like the Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher I've ever seen for the five years.

00:34:31He was great.

00:34:31And there was an intimidation factor about Pedro because of attitude.

00:34:37And I mean, he'd throw it at you and he was there for the fight also.

00:34:42I'm telling you that Derek Jeter thought I'm going to kill Pedro Martinez today.

00:34:46I am going to get, and the Yankees beat Pedro a lot.

00:34:49And I think one of the reasons was their most important player, the player everyone was looking

00:34:53at was like, that guy's in trouble today.

00:34:56Is that the core of this Yankee team?

00:34:58The other team is in trouble today?

00:35:00Or is that just a cool thing they say to each other?

00:35:02Oh, yeah.

00:35:03Like, whatever.

00:35:04Like, what is the, what are we, what are you holding each other to?

00:35:09What is the mental sharpness?

00:35:11What is the belief system of it?

00:35:14Because when this team gets hit, it stays hit.

00:35:19It doesn't, it doesn't take a punch on the chin and go, oh, we're fighting, huh?

00:35:25It gets hit on the chin and it goes down.

00:35:28There's what stands out to me in this period of time is like, they never forced the other

00:35:34team into trouble.

00:35:35It isn't like they're down to nothing and they get it to two, two, like Cleveland.

00:35:39And I know the White Sox are not that good, but like, I get it.

00:35:42But like Cleveland, just now the White Sox are thinking, are we going to blow this thing?

00:35:45The Yankees don't force that moment.

00:35:48None of these series go.

00:35:49The only time in the Boone era, I think it did is the last time they played Tampa Bay,

00:35:53which was in 2020.

00:35:54And I almost don't even, I think that COVID season is so weird.

00:35:58I almost throw it out.

00:36:00You're playing in an empty stadium and whatever.

00:36:03So like, like a little bizarre, but like none of these other teams, like when they get hit,

00:36:09say, okay, like, let's get back in the, like you get back in the series and you get it to

00:36:12a winner take all.

00:36:14And now the other team, if it's going to feel it has to feel like, oh crap, we might blow

00:36:18this thing.

00:36:19Right.

00:36:20Nope.

00:36:20The Yankees get hit.

00:36:22The Yankees stay down.

00:36:23It is a terrible reflection on the institution.

00:36:27Terrible.

00:36:28Yeah.

00:36:29And it, it, um, I, I want to ask you, Joel, about the, the, the decision-making as well

00:36:36from Aaron Boone.

00:36:37Right.

00:36:37Um, and the front office, cause I know they have their say in this as well, the lineup.

00:36:41Right.

00:36:41But, but, and I understand you are limited when John Colston is a pinch hitter only and

00:36:46Aaron judge is not on the roster.

00:36:47Your options are not as good as they were, but this is what we saw also all regular season.

00:36:52This was an offense where you and I would talk a bunch about like, it's not a good offense.

00:36:57It is Ben rice, Cody Bellinger.

00:36:59And then who the hell else knows what you're going to get from the rest of this lineup.

00:37:03And you know, you're, you can't over rely on guys like Lombard and Jones, who, by the

00:37:07way, I thought Lombard was fantastic in game three and Jones as well.

00:37:10But like, those are young guys getting their first taste of this.

00:37:13So you can't expect too much of them.

00:37:16But the way this roster was constructed, it was a roster.

00:37:19I think Joel, we all agree.

00:37:21It was a bunch of platoon guys where facing a lefty facing a righty, you're going to play

00:37:25today.

00:37:26Like that's, that's how the decision-making was made.

00:37:28So games one and two, one, did you have a, did you have a problem with the Yankees running

00:37:32the same lineup back from one game one, where they were one hit into game two.

00:37:37And the second question I have for you is the Trent Grisham of it all.

00:37:40The guy that I think has been a, another one of those where he's in the ire of Yankees

00:37:46fans because they gave the qualifying offer.

00:37:48We don't have to revisit that, but this was the guy who did not have a good year, was terrible

00:37:54as the leadoff hitter this year.

00:37:56The stats proved it.

00:37:57And they decided to go with him in the leadoff spot, which gave ultimately him that extra

00:38:01at bat and not Ben Rice at the end of game three.

00:38:04And that ultimately bit them in the ass.

00:38:06So what did you make of both of those decisions from Boone and management?

00:38:11Yeah.

00:38:11Uh, there's a lot there.

00:38:14Um, uh, you could, uh, trust me, or you could ask our post colleagues, uh, who were there,

00:38:22uh, Mark Sanchez and Greg Joyce and John Heyman.

00:38:26I made a big deal that Caballero should have been starting at third base in game two.

00:38:31That was well before Ryan McMahon.

00:38:33I really think the McMahon era ends the series.

00:38:37I do.

00:38:38I just, because I think the rest of the inning unfolds in a certain way where it's like,

00:38:43now they're on their heels.

00:38:44It's a routine ground ball to third.

00:38:47It must be turned into an out.

00:38:49It is not.

00:38:50And then, you know, you got a ray on base.

00:38:54The Yankees get unnerved.

00:38:55The, by the way, pretty good crowd in Tampa Bay, which I really not seen before where

00:39:01it was loud and, and for the rays.

00:39:04And, you know, there was a big, when rice homers to tie, um, uh, the game, uh, was a

00:39:12two.

00:39:12Yeah.

00:39:13Uh, it was a reminder that there were Yankees, a lot of Yankee fans there, but then it kind

00:39:18of got faded again when the Yankees started butchering the ball.

00:39:20They were held in check, you know, but, um, so I was a big one for Cabello.

00:39:27It's just a, and what disturb should disturb Yankee fans.

00:39:31The Yankee institution was the guy he was thinking about playing at third.

00:39:35If it wasn't McMahon was Volpe.

00:39:37And to me, it's just like, look, I think Volpe did some stuff to revive himself and

00:39:43make himself an interesting kind of like, I'm sure we'll talk about this either today

00:39:48and other shows like, what does it all mean moving forward?

00:39:51But I'm not going to start Volpe on the turf at third base, his second career start in

00:39:55a playoff game on the turf.

00:39:58Caballero to me was a, first of all, he's just a better player than Ryan McMahon.

00:40:03Like he's just better.

00:40:04Okay.

00:40:05Ryan McMahon has become kind of an, if you're not going to feel great, like he needs to

00:40:10be Taylor.

00:40:11I was, I didn't want to say anything, but like when you said Taylor Wells, I'm like,

00:40:14that's what Ryan Mann is supposed to be is that they're great defender at third.

00:40:17He can't hit.

00:40:19It's like, if, if the ball gets hit to you, it must be an out almost a hundred percent

00:40:23of the time, especially a routine ball.

00:40:25And then you got to make plays above average.

00:40:26Like Taylor walls does a lot of stuff.

00:40:28There was a, there was a six, four play in game three that I think he made look easy

00:40:34coming in and over that he threw across his body.

00:40:37Like, like he's really a good shortstop.

00:40:40I mean, really special.

00:40:41Uh, if Ryan McMahon is not going to be the Taylor walls of third baseman, he's a non-player.

00:40:49Okay.

00:40:50So if I'm feeling like, Oh, I'm Aaron Boone and I play Aaron Boone every day.

00:40:57Like I try to imagine what the lineup is.

00:40:59And again, I told everyone what I would do.

00:41:01There were two things that bothered me about the McMahon decision.

00:41:06Or maybe even more number one, you're kind of like down now one, nothing in the series.

00:41:12You know, this vibe you've been, you literally were here last year, literally were here last

00:41:19year.

00:41:19And to me, I could feel the fraudulence of the Yankee confidence in their clubhouse that

00:41:27night.

00:41:28And as a rational as it is, you know, who's super confident Jose Caballera.

00:41:36And now I would worry a little bit against the team that traded him.

00:41:40Does he lose his head and start making mistakes also, but I'm willing to roll the dice of he's

00:41:46a better player than McMahon.

00:41:48He's super confident.

00:41:49And I'm going to have a talking to him and deal with reality and not non-reality of, Oh,

00:41:55hey, Jose, I need you to be you, which is, there's got to be some looseness and fire to

00:42:01it, but you can't get picked off.

00:42:04You can't, here's the three things I noticed during the course of the year that could happen

00:42:07to you because you get over.

00:42:09So there's that, there's the play from the hole where you should eat the ball, eat the

00:42:15ball, like kind of thing.

00:42:17Okay.

00:42:17So I'm going to have the talking to, but I'm going to put his competent.

00:42:20The other thing is when you put eight lefty hitters in the lineup against a righty, if

00:42:27they're eight good lefty hitters, you've created a gauntlet for the other team.

00:42:33If they're not a good lefty hitters, you have created an easy pattern for a starting pitcher

00:42:40to go, Oh, the Yankees all are kind of this, this is their swing pattern, you know, and I

00:42:47could just go over and over and over to the same thing.

00:42:51So I want, it's like, if you tell me I got eight Ben Rices, I'll take my shot.

00:42:57If I've got to mix in, you know, the Grisham of it all and the McMahon of it all.

00:43:03And the jazz.

00:43:04Yeah.

00:43:04Like, like I'm not really creating any diversity.

00:43:10Uh, and so I would, so I was on the Caballero on Grisham.

00:43:17So, so I, this is a, I am going to do a mea culpa.

00:43:25I, I understand why the Yankees did the qualifying offer to Trent Grisham.

00:43:32Um, and I went against my, for tactical reasons, I went against my belief system about baseball,

00:43:42which was center field is an incredibly difficult place to find.

00:43:47There was no, like the next obvious thing to do was to trade players for Luis Robert Jr.

00:43:52Which if it mirrored what happened with the Mets would have been a mistake also.

00:43:56Like, like, like there was not an obvious guy, like, could they have lucked into Tristan Peters

00:44:03and been like, oh, we need a center fielder.

00:44:05And the Rays are selling the contract to Tristan Peters.

00:44:09Like a big mistake by the Rays, right?

00:44:11He ends up being a really good player with the White Sox.

00:44:13Like they would have had to get lucky.

00:44:15Like, or they would have ended up with some judge in center field, Bellinger doing a lot more,

00:44:20which they don't want because they think the wear and tear on him is too much.

00:44:23And he's so good and left in Yankee stadium.

00:44:25Do you try Dominguez in center?

00:44:27So like, I went to all that and I was like, hey, for $23 million for a guy who had

00:44:3330-ish homers last year,

00:44:35that made sense.

00:44:36And one of the things I rebuked, and I still stand by that, is the foulings of Yankee fans said,

00:44:42oh, they only did that so they don't have to sign Bellinger.

00:44:46And then, of course, they signed Bellinger.

00:44:47So like that, like Grisham didn't stop them from something else.

00:44:51Grisham was an attempt at a solution because that's a tough position to find and he just hit 30 homers.

00:44:57And so I was like, yeah, I would do that also.

00:45:00And now, even at my advanced age, I would never do something like that again because I just don't like

00:45:06the player.

00:45:06And the belief system I have to have is if I don't like that and I feel that it invades

00:45:13my space of like it's going to be bad look,

00:45:18I can't change it, like it didn't kill them against Boston,

00:45:23but the lollygag into the extra base for Nate Eaton, it was just like, oh, I've seen, like it's the

00:45:29jazz pivot.

00:45:30I've just seen it before.

00:45:31How is it not corrected?

00:45:33Oh, it's not corrected because the player doesn't care enough.

00:45:36And again, we'll go through the institution, the owner, the GM, the manager, the captain who stands next to him,

00:45:41who says, like at some point somebody has to say, if you do this again, we're just going to have

00:45:45to fight.

00:45:45Yeah, like we're playing the biggest games like like between I know the answer is not a playoff game, Trent.

00:45:53It's not a playoff game.

00:45:55I assume if there was a feral tiger on the field running around, you would run hard.

00:46:01So between a feral tiger and a playoff game, what would you run hard for?

00:46:06Like, what would you what would get your attention?

00:46:08And so I went against my belief system, which is if you put players who don't value being sharp, playing

00:46:20hard,

00:46:22caring about the scoreboard every second they play.

00:46:24I did it for a tactical reason, which was if not him, who's playing center field for you?

00:46:30And what I would say going forward, again, even after all these years is I'll find something better.

00:46:36If I will not put a player on my roster, in my clubhouse and on the field, I don't believe

00:46:42we'll play sharp as as you know, like as as his template.

00:46:49Does everybody make a mistake?

00:46:50Yes.

00:46:51Like every once in a while, you're like, you let something get to you.

00:46:54Well, he's perfect.

00:46:55Right.

00:46:55But but this is who he is.

00:46:58Yeah.

00:46:58As a player.

00:46:59It is who jazz is as a player.

00:47:02It is the it is their core element as players.

00:47:07And I simply would not put it on my team.

00:47:11And I made the mistake of, oh, that position is hard to find.

00:47:15This one's easy.

00:47:17It's worth twenty three million if he's two thirds of the player he was last year and is just a

00:47:24two war player kind of thing.

00:47:26And leads off and gets on base thirty two, thirty three percent of the time and hits twenty two homers.

00:47:32I was like, that's what he could probably do.

00:47:35And I thought that would be worth the twenty two million.

00:47:38I was wrong because it comes in this package and I should never accept.

00:47:46The like like if I accept it, the player better be Aaron Judge and not Trent Grisham.

00:47:52And I don't even want to accept it out of Aaron Judge.

00:47:55And by the way, that's not I think Judge plays hard and smart.

00:47:57I was just using the talent as the example.

00:48:00But like I just I think if there's a lesson, I'm sure Brian Cashman is going to stay the GM.

00:48:06Sorry, Yankee fans.

00:48:07I know you hate that.

00:48:07I assume he's going to stay the GM.

00:48:09You would like to believe like here I am saying at my advanced age, I would have made that mistake

00:48:16as well based on what else was available at the position.

00:48:21Right.

00:48:22Stop making this mistake.

00:48:24Yeah.

00:48:24Only put players on your in your clubhouse and on your roster who you believe will be sharp and on

00:48:31it at all times.

00:48:33Yeah.

00:48:33And I hear you on the on the revisit, revisitation of what happened in the offseason.

00:48:39I think.

00:48:40For game three, though, right, like you should not have let off.

00:48:44I mean, I again, that's a first guess, which is like I just.

00:48:48Like, I don't even understand the logic of it all.

00:48:50Like I the logic was he was hoping that he draw a walk or two and Bryce Rice's at bats

00:48:58would come with guys on base.

00:49:00And I and look, the easy way to see this is as the game ended with Grisham's at bat, like

00:49:07if Grisham's hitting seventh, everything is different.

00:49:10Does do they even get to like that extra at bat of it all?

00:49:15Like maybe Rice still only bats for you know what I'm saying is like like you don't know.

00:49:21But the reality is I don't want Trent Grisham to bat most often wherever the final at bat ends.

00:49:27And nothing showed from the last two games that he was on it or this guy's close.

00:49:31And this, you know, like that to me is where I think there's a touch of no reality there where

00:49:37it's like I just watched this guy loaf in center field and he's not putting together quality at bats.

00:49:42He's got his bat on the shoulder staring at strike three multiple times.

00:49:45That to me, going into game three, I'd be like, I don't think you got it.

00:49:49Like you don't seem like you're in this game right now.

00:49:52And I, as a manager, need to have a responsibility.

00:49:55This is a must win game.

00:49:56I'm not going to put my season on the line with you at leading off the game.

00:50:01Can I throw in one other thing?

00:50:02It's the I forgot one of the reasons I mentioned again to the group at the stadium why I would

00:50:09hit Cabo, why I would play Cabo a third.

00:50:11I'd also hit him ninth and this way he's batting in front of rice, right?

00:50:16Like, like in feeling like, oh, if I could get his, because by the way, if I could Grisham on,

00:50:20am I even getting speed or am I getting jog?

00:50:24It's like, like Caballero at first base for rice is like, I can't believe a double is going to score

00:50:29him.

00:50:29I'm going to believe that he will be distracting to a pitcher because as opposed to Grisham, he could steal.

00:50:35Like, like, I like the idea of almost the Caballero is the lead off hitter once you clear the lineup

00:50:42the first time.

00:50:43And if he could get on base, he does some things for rice in that spot.

00:50:49And I just be like, at this moment, Ben rice has to bat more than everybody else.

00:50:54Like that, that's, that's the thing that they had the unfortunate that the game ended on the first batter instead

00:51:00of the second batter.

00:51:01Like, yes, you've put yourself in position for that to become the batter.

00:51:05You left yourself open to it.

00:51:06You left yourself open to it.

00:51:07But I just, I hated the, the, who it was, the philosophy, regardless of where it ends up.

00:51:15Like, like, let's say that they, uh, uh, Trent Grisham doubles in that spot.

00:51:23They're going to intentionally walk Ben rice.

00:51:25So like now the game is going to end on the second hitter.

00:51:27Like, like, but I am Ben rice still has to force them to make a decision by batting the most

00:51:33often.

00:51:33You're at a moment right now where you have one of your nine players hitting well.

00:51:38And so that guy had just has to hit them.

00:51:40Um, like once we've gotten to the untradition of it all, like five, six, seven years ago, where a Kyle

00:51:45Schwarber type player or a Luke Voigt type player is leading off.

00:51:49And it doesn't have to be the speedy center fielder, the guy who could steal base.

00:51:53Then it's like, okay, we've all come to peace with that in, in this game.

00:51:57Ben rice is going to bat the most often.

00:51:59If I could control it, just felt like, again, maybe overthinking, maybe just, uh, and I, by the way, I,

00:52:04I, I know fans don't believe it.

00:52:06I really believe Aaron Boone makes the lineup.

00:52:08I think that they come down, I think they come down and show him the matrix.

00:52:12Sure.

00:52:13Say this is, uh, but I bet you the matrix would show Ben rice should hit first.

00:52:19So I really do think that Aaron Boone decided.

00:52:24Well, it, it, it, so that to me feels very much like that's Aaron Boone saying, I think Trent can

00:52:30do the damage tonight or he can make that walk or, or that big at bat.

00:52:34And that's the same feeling and thought that when it's a game two, where it's like, no, I was thinking

00:52:38about Caballero third.

00:52:40I think it actually Volpe can be there.

00:52:41Cause he might be the guy who can give us that.

00:52:44Like that to me is what's alarming.

00:52:47And then the other, the most important thing was it needed not to be McMahon, uh, which was, uh, uh,

00:52:54but yeah, I, I, there's such a large enough sample size, right?

00:52:57Joel all year long, where it's like those two guys, you can even count jazz and those three players have

00:53:02really not been what you needed them to be all this year.

00:53:05And there's nothing to say, you know, they can't have one game or two like that.

00:53:10But when you're talking about the post season, everything's on the line, your season's online, potentially your career is on

00:53:16the line.

00:53:17You go with them and it, and it bites you in the ass because, and we, and leaves you open

00:53:21to say you made the mistake.

00:53:23Like you didn't put the right lineup together.

00:53:25You didn't, you, you, and then the other thing too, Joel in game management wise, and I, we can go

00:53:29quick on this, but like game two, they have the lefty on the mound and you leave all three lefties

00:53:35with five right-handed bats on the bench.

00:53:39Are we giving up?

00:53:41We not like, where is the, where is the in game management decision-making like that infuriated me just as

00:53:48much as the other stuff where it's like, are we not in this game?

00:53:51Are we not going for the win?

00:53:52And why are, why are we not seeing Ramos stand?

00:53:54You traded for Ramos to be this guy for you.

00:53:57Like Caballero, anything.

00:54:01Very weird, man.

00:54:02Felt very weird.

00:54:03So that, that leads me to, I think where we have to end this show is about the future of

00:54:09Aaron Boone.

00:54:10And you said, Brian Cashman's coming back.

00:54:11Who's got no contract after going into the off season.

00:54:14So he needs a new deal.

00:54:15And it seems like from your reporting and everyone else discussion, like the Yankees want to bring Brian Cashman back.

00:54:22Where does Aaron Boone land in all this?

00:54:24Because like you've said multiple times on this show and in your writing, he's one in seven in the postseason

00:54:30in terms of facing teams that are better than them in record wise and the better opponent.

00:54:34It's the same story for four straight years of losing on your home turf in the playoffs, going down and

00:54:40losing on the road teams fundamentally has just not gotten where it needs to be.

00:54:45They don't do the routine.

00:54:46Well, how does this end with Aaron Boone?

00:54:49Does he get another year to finish out the rest of his contract or are they going to seriously consider

00:54:53moving on from him?

00:54:56I think I've told the story, so I'll do it as quick as possible.

00:54:59In 1991, I was the Yankee beat guy, but we didn't have a baseball columnist in 91.

00:55:05And so the season was coming towards an end, might have been August or September.

00:55:11And so when a column was needed to be written, I was only a third year beat guy.

00:55:15I shouldn't have probably been given this responsibility, but I was like write a column.

00:55:19And I kind of a little bit got strung armed into saying the Yankees should fire Stump Merrill, which, by

00:55:25the way, they should have.

00:55:26But also the writing was on the wall.

00:55:28It was understood that Stump Merrill was getting fired.

00:55:31It was in a way fake muscles by me to be like.

00:55:38And back then when newspapers were king, I literally had a physical copy of the newspaper the next day.

00:55:44I read my column and this is not an illusion.

00:55:49This actually happened.

00:55:50I read a column where I said another man should be fired and I threw up.

00:55:55I physically threw up.

00:55:56I understand that the world has changed and forums like this, everybody gets fired.

00:56:02But I am my father's son, who is the hardest working man I know.

00:56:06He was a truck driver.

00:56:07And I just there was something about the idea of like your father should be fired.

00:56:12And I just have trouble saying a human being should be fired.

00:56:17So I've never that was 1991.

00:56:21It's 35 years.

00:56:22I've never called for anyone to be fired.

00:56:25I do encourage people when they read me or hear me to hear between the lines.

00:56:34And what I would say is it is harder to defend bringing Aaron Boone back than any other time because

00:56:46it is to deja boom.

00:56:49It is familiar what is happening.

00:56:54And I think the question is, have you gone as far as you can go with this manager, which is

00:57:02pretty far.

00:57:03We should not underestimate what it means to win 50.

00:57:06Like, like, like lots of teams have expectations, the Mets the last two years, the Mariners for a lot of

00:57:14years, the Tigers this year, who I have like a great manager in A.J. Hinge, and they don't figure

00:57:19out how to win 56, 57, 58, 59% of the games.

00:57:23And that Boone over the 162 game sample will get your vehicle to the starting line of the most important

00:57:34games.

00:57:37But the Yankees replaced Buckshaw Walter, who could do that.

00:57:42The Knicks replaced Tom Thibodeau, who could do that.

00:57:46And the question I think Brian Cashman and Hal Steinbrenner need to ask.

00:57:55And that is and by the way, they like this person.

00:58:03And I want to say I like this person, which is another reason I won't say fire the person that

00:58:11to know Aaron Boone is to like him.

00:58:15I would ask, does the Yankee clubhouse right now need a manager they like?

00:58:22Or just would a different voice.

00:58:28Stir something about like, is there a need for some fear coming from the manager's office that if you're kind

00:58:38of like, like, like after Showalter, the difference in Torrey did get him.

00:58:44From the red zone into the end zone that they needed, like between the combination of how overbearing George Steinbrenner

00:58:51was and how Buck to some degree had been on them so much.

00:58:56They were a finished product and what they needed was a more fatherly figure like Torrey to manage them.

00:59:04I don't think these Yankees need a fatherly figure.

00:59:07I think they, for want of a better term, they need an asshole a little bit.

00:59:12And to know Aaron Boone is to know he's no asshole.

00:59:16He's a good man.

00:59:19Can he?

00:59:21And so so I so I will throw out two things to say this.

00:59:26Would it benefit the Yankees to have a different kind of, say, bench coach?

00:59:31Again, Brett Asmus is a good man and a good baseball man and I think has probably a real shot

00:59:36to be if the Astros change things.

00:59:38He's very close with Jeff Bagwell.

00:59:40Like, could he be the GM in Houston or the manager in Houston?

00:59:43I think he's going to be in play for something like that if there are changes there.

00:59:48But do they need, like, if you're going to have this type person managing, should there be this type person

00:59:54next to them?

00:59:57It would be something I think seriously about.

00:59:59I think the time if you were going to make a change for Boone was last year.

01:00:04I think nobody wants to hear this, but the calendar sucks this year to make a change.

01:00:08The calendar sucks.

01:00:09Now, I hear the you know how how good a friend and how much respect I have for for for

01:00:17John Heyman and John and I literally sat next to each other, physically sat next to each other just for

01:00:2227 hours of baseball.

01:00:23We talk to each other all the time.

01:00:25And I John and there's a few people I respect in the whole institution of baseball more than John and

01:00:30John's like, you can't let like a tough situation go because the calendar sucks.

01:00:37Yeah, I'm like, I hear you.

01:00:40You might be right.

01:00:42But let's deal with the reality.

01:00:45If the Yankees got rid of Aaron Boone today, which is October 9th, let's give them a month to have

01:00:53people in do multiple rounds of interviews.

01:00:56So let's call it November 10th.

01:00:58Sure.

01:00:59They name a new manager.

01:01:02Ryan, you can take it to the bank at midnight, November 30th.

01:01:05There's going to be a lockout.

01:01:07So you've got 20 days of that new person to come in.

01:01:12Those are the last 20.

01:01:13He can talk to players.

01:01:15It goes dark after that.

01:01:17It's illegal.

01:01:18If he got caught talking to a player at that point, he's going to be suspended.

01:01:21So like like any relationships with the players, anything to familiarize himself.

01:01:26So if it's not like you're elevating Brad Osmus or Luis Rojas, it's if you're going to outside voice, you're

01:01:33bringing that person in.

01:01:34He's got 20 days.

01:01:36And then the likelihood is we're going to push into spring training and beyond.

01:01:42Let's make up a date.

01:01:43Wait, they settle.

01:01:44We get a new CBA on May 1st.

01:01:48It's going to be a three-week spring training.

01:01:51It's possibly maybe going to be in New York instead of Tampa.

01:01:56But let's say it's in Tampa.

01:01:57You're still only – you're not going to bring 70 people to camp.

01:02:00You're going to bring 40.

01:02:01So you're not going to get to know that next layer of, oh, there goes Dax Kilby and there goes

01:02:06Ben Hess and there – whatever it is.

01:02:09It's going to be 40 and it's going to be like speed rush.

01:02:12We've got to get a team ready to play.

01:02:14It's going to – it's going to be a tough year to bring in somebody from the outside.

01:02:19Now let's add the Yankees of it all, the size of the media crew that covers it, the innate pressure

01:02:26to do better.

01:02:27I think it's a very, very difficult thing.

01:02:31And now let's talk about the people who are going to make the decision to replace Aaron Boone, which is

01:02:38the Yankees have done a great job.

01:02:39If you go from Buck Showalter to Joe Torre to Joe Girardi to Aaron Boone over 35 years, you have

01:02:45done a great job picking managers.

01:02:46And that includes Aaron Boone, who has one of the best winning percentages in the history of the game.

01:02:52But the last team to come back from an 0-2 hole in the playoffs and win were Joe Girardi's

01:02:592017 Yankees.

01:03:00Right.

01:03:01In the division series against Cleveland.

01:03:03Yep.

01:03:05If the Yankees – and it's very important that the Yankees beat Cleveland.

01:03:08And it's very important that the Yankees then go seven games against Houston.

01:03:12And then it's very important that Houston wins and goes on for this story, which is I can guarantee you

01:03:18that if the Yankees got beat by Cleveland and Cleveland advance,

01:03:21the very strong likelihood is the Yankees would have hired Mickey Calloway to be their manager.

01:03:28He was at the very top of their list.

01:03:30He was the Cleveland pitching coach.

01:03:32He was well regarded.

01:03:35It was him and Alex Cora who was the bench coach of those 2017 Astros.

01:03:45So let's play it out.

01:03:47The Yankees get – losing three games to Cleveland.

01:03:51They begin the interview process same time as the Mets who bring in Mickey Calloway.

01:03:56They're the Yankees.

01:03:56They're the sexier team.

01:03:59They may hire Mickey Calloway.

01:04:00If not, they might hire Alex Cora who I think is a very good major league manager.

01:04:05You know what's going to happen two years later?

01:04:07Remember, the cheating scandal is going to come out and he's going to get suspended for cheating against your team.

01:04:16Okay?

01:04:17So it's a little tricky.

01:04:19Go back and look at who the finalists were with Boone.

01:04:22Rob Thompson's name is in there.

01:04:24Carlos Beltran, Hensley Mullins.

01:04:26It's like – we do this all the time.

01:04:31I don't like Trent Grisham in center field.

01:04:34Within reality, you've got to tell me who plays center field.

01:04:37I don't like Ryan McMahon at third.

01:04:39I agree with all Yankee fans.

01:04:40Right.

01:04:41But we do this all the time.

01:04:42You know, there's not – you don't get out at Penn Station and – oh, there's the third base store.

01:04:47There's the center field store.

01:04:49There's the manager store.

01:04:50Who do you want to do it?

01:04:53Yeah.

01:04:54And by the way, that shouldn't preclude you changing if you think change should be made.

01:05:00Well said.

01:05:01Well said.

01:05:02But you've got to do it quick.

01:05:05Yeah.

01:05:05That person is almost certainly going to be put behind the eight ball for at least the 2027 season by

01:05:12very short relationships to build with players on the front end and in spring training.

01:05:18If you think that you cannot put the lieutenant in arms next to Boone or shake up Boone to be

01:05:30a different kind of person as far as this – and by the way, stop putting the Trent Grishams and

01:05:36the Jazz Chisholm's in his clubhouse.

01:05:38So maybe you'll help the manager with that kind of stuff.

01:05:42I'm just saying if the greatest defense for the manager is a calendar, it's not a great defense.

01:05:51But you have to take it into account.

01:05:53Sure.

01:05:54You must take into account.

01:05:56I think it's a very logical way to look at it from your perspective, Joel, the calendar, like how this

01:06:01all plays out because that looming lockout is going to happen on November 30th.

01:06:06There is a name out there.

01:06:07And I know this is crazy.

01:06:09Like we're doing the hypothetical.

01:06:11It's crazy, Ryan.

01:06:11You can't do that.

01:06:12But the name is out there.

01:06:13He's very familiar with the Yankees because you just mentioned him now.

01:06:17Alex Cora.

01:06:18Now, I know that there's all reports he does not want to manage in 2027.

01:06:22I'm sure it's because of the lockout, the uncertainty of it all, but also at the same time, maybe he

01:06:25just wants to take a year off from baseball because he just lost, you know, the job with the Red

01:06:28Sox.

01:06:28But he had won championships with the Red Sox.

01:06:31Is that something that they are familiar with?

01:06:33Like, he's there.

01:06:35Like, can you convince him enough to say, hey, you know this team.

01:06:38You've gone up against it enough.

01:06:40Do you want to be the manager of this team?

01:06:42I don't know.

01:06:43That's just something I think.

01:06:44So I know Alex Cora.

01:06:47I like Alex Cora.

01:06:48I think Alex Cora is a very good major league manager.

01:06:52If Hal Steinbrenner is the owner and Brian Cashman is the general manager and about five other key people are

01:07:00in the positions they're in, the idea that a 2017 Astro will be hired is very difficult for me to

01:07:07imagine.

01:07:08That's number one.

01:07:09Okay, like what Yankee fans might forgive to get it, I find very difficult to believe that certain people in

01:07:19the Yankee organization, and I will say some other influential people who are not just those two people.

01:07:25I'm not sure that that could happen.

01:07:28That's number one.

01:07:28Number two, you know, Alex Cora is a very good manager, championship manager, and managed in a big Northeast market.

01:07:36The Red Sox finished last under him a couple of times.

01:07:39Like, again, there's something to be said for, like, whatever you think, you must get to the tournament every year.

01:07:52And I think in-game manager, it's not really close to me, Cora versus Boone.

01:07:57I think Cora, it gives you some advantages, but does he give you some disadvantages?

01:08:02Like, him and Haim Bloom, when Haim ran it, there was this.

01:08:07Is he going to play well with upper management?

01:08:10Now, I know the argument would be, like, screw upper management.

01:08:13What have they done?

01:08:14Well, they put together a very good team all the time.

01:08:16I mean, they traded away Mookie Betts, Chris Sills.

01:08:19They let some big, important pieces.

01:08:21They didn't help him in certain areas, I would say.

01:08:24Right, but that came from ownership needing, saying, lower the payroll.

01:08:27Right, right, right.

01:08:28Like, I get it.

01:08:31I get it.

01:08:31I think Alex Cora is an exceptional manager.

01:08:38I would be very, very, and again, he was on the short list in 17, but remember what happens.

01:08:46The Yankees get eliminated by Houston, and I think that by that point, Alex has the Boston job.

01:08:52I think my chronology is right, but if the Yankees hadn't been eliminated earlier, I think I'm positive, from talking

01:09:01to Yankee people over the years, that Callaway and Cora were 1-2 on their initial thought of, because I

01:09:06think internally, they knew they were going to move on from Girardi.

01:09:10That I think that there's a 10-year shelf life, and keep in mind, next year would be 10 for

01:09:15Boone, and it's the final year of his contract.

01:09:17Is that a reason to – I see the very reason people want to get rid of Boone, and I

01:09:25think that there is a totally legitimate reason to change managers, and I think that there is something that you

01:09:34cannot ignore about the baseball calendar this year, and that if it's not Cora, let's take Cora out.

01:09:41Let's say you're contaminated to too many people in Yankee management.

01:09:46Like if I told you it's Rocco Baldelli, if I told you it was Brandon Hyde, if I told you

01:09:52it was – now you reach down to – it's Ryan Fletcher, who's a disciple of Buck Showalter in a

01:10:01lot of ways.

01:10:01Play for him the ball, and has a great rep.

01:10:04Now maybe Ryan Fletcher is the next big thing.

01:10:07Maybe he's Mickey Calloway that when he steps up to the job, you suddenly – like you can't get it

01:10:12wrong, and maybe the Yankee institution should say, I don't know, we've gone four for four, which Showalter, Torrey, Girardi,

01:10:18and Boone will do it right again.

01:10:20But I'm telling you that if they got eliminated like almost every team does that's down 0-2, they're probably

01:10:27hiring Mickey Calloway.

01:10:29And so like I know they could get it wrong too, and then you're crash landing a team.

01:10:35And so –

01:10:36Right.

01:10:36I mean but at least you're trying to change – here's what I'm saying.

01:10:40You're at least saying and admitting to everyone, we accept that we have failed the same way multiple years now

01:10:47and around.

01:10:47It is the reason to change managers.

01:10:49Yeah.

01:10:49If you are going to do it, if you are going to call for another human being to be fired,

01:10:55the reason to do it is a totally acceptable reason, which is I think an easy case could be made

01:11:06that the Yankees have gone as far as they could go with this man.

01:11:09Right.

01:11:10That is the case, that there is something that some screw is in turn – like whatever the analogy is

01:11:20to Godfather, one of my favorite movies, right, is like you're out, Tom.

01:11:28You're not a wartime consigliere.

01:11:29Like is it possible Aaron Boone is a 162-game manager and not a wartime consigliere?

01:11:37You know, it's possible that that was true about Buck Showalter with a completely different temperament, right?

01:11:42Yeah.

01:11:43Because Buck was great at getting teams there and not great at getting them across the goal line.

01:11:48And so maybe we'd say the same thing about Tom Thibodeau.

01:11:53Yeah.

01:11:53Right?

01:11:53We'd probably say the same thing about Marty Schottenheimer.

01:11:56Yeah.

01:11:57I mean Mike – and this is what I'll say.

01:11:59Mike Brown was not a highly touted candidate for the Knicks to hire.

01:12:04People were like, Mike Brown, the guy who can't get the team over the finish line either?

01:12:08But it was the right change for the locker room.

01:12:12It was the Joe Torre change.

01:12:13It was Joe Torre had failed in his three previous places.

01:12:17He was clueless Joe on back pages.

01:12:20And so – but then you really are just – are you inspired or getting lucky that it's Joe Torre

01:12:27and Mike Brown?

01:12:28I don't know.

01:12:29But also at the end of the day, if you make that call and it does work out, you go

01:12:33down in the Canyon of Heroes, Joe.

01:12:35That's what it is.

01:12:36Look, I think that there is a real case.

01:12:43Remember, I'm not a person who will say the word.

01:12:45No, I hear you.

01:12:47Hey, fire this guy.

01:12:49The case is you've got to sit in a room and say, turn the noise off.

01:12:55I know what the fan base wants, especially the angriest, loudest.

01:12:59I got it.

01:13:01And I don't want to throw red meat just to throw red meat.

01:13:04This is a human being who's never embarrassed the organization, who's won 57% of the games here,

01:13:09who is a pretty good major league manager regardless of what – again, like the comps are,

01:13:15did you watch like the Orioles play this year and their manager?

01:13:19Like that's a – so stuff can go down and you could do – Aaron Boone is a good major

01:13:25league manager.

01:13:26We're the Yankees.

01:13:28We have to have somebody who's a wartime consigliere also.

01:13:32We have to have a finisher.

01:13:34Do we think that we can turn the knobs, we could hire somebody else, we could clean out the clubhouse,

01:13:41and this manager can get us the last 20 yards into the end zone?

01:13:45If the answer is yes, the calendar this offseason suggests, do those things.

01:13:52If the answer is no, ignore the calendar.

01:13:58Ignore all the difficulties.

01:14:00Ignore the worry about, oh, look at this slate of people we're going to have sitting in front of us.

01:14:05Do any of them inspire us?

01:14:07And change.

01:14:10I think you can make a strong argument that as tough an offseason as this is, to make that change,

01:14:20you will have to look at this manager and say, can he get us the last 20 yards?

01:14:24And if you don't, you've got to do a really difficult thing, which is you will not be dismissing a

01:14:34man you will enjoy dismissing, right?

01:14:37Like I get how angry Yankee fans are.

01:14:40If this is the end for Aaron Boone, that will be a joy –

01:14:46Yankee fans will cheer, will get all the internet, social media muscles, oh, good, whatever.

01:14:52That would be a good human being losing his job who has given everything to the Yankees

01:14:58and might not have the skill set to get them the last thing.

01:15:00But that would not be – like people who would revel in that are pricks.

01:15:06That is a man losing his job.

01:15:09That is a horrible thing.

01:15:12And a good man and good at his job.

01:15:16The Yankees might need great.

01:15:19The Yankees do need great.

01:15:21Yeah.

01:15:22Do the Yankees believe that Aaron Boone has one more step to great?

01:15:26It's been nine years.

01:15:28If they don't, they owe it to the institution to do a thing that would be miserable.

01:15:36And in a tough, tough offseason to do the miserable.

01:15:42It's a heavy question.

01:15:43It's a heavy subject matter.

01:15:45And it also – it will determine ultimately where this franchise is going in 2027.

01:15:51If there is, baseball will be played.

01:15:53Joel, I don't think this will be the last time we speak to you for a while.

01:15:56I have a feeling we'll be talking –

01:15:57We didn't talk about the future at all.

01:15:58I think there's probably –

01:16:00Another episode in there.

01:16:01In the post today, I wrote about some of the stuff I think they should do moving forward.

01:16:04And look, why don't I leave on this and it will be a tease for the next time we get

01:16:08together.

01:16:09Whoever is managing the Yankees next year will start with a lot of good stuff.

01:16:14Again, it's not where Yankee fans want to be now.

01:16:16But if you have seven legitimate starting pitchers, if you have Rice, Judge, and Garcia in the middle of your

01:16:25lineup, if you have these –

01:16:28And Bellinger.

01:16:29I think Bellinger I left out there who I think is their best all-around player.

01:16:33I think if you – I think Lombard is going to be Jeremy Pena, which is a really, really good

01:16:39baseball player.

01:16:40Really good.

01:16:42And I think – I don't know what Spencer Jones is going to be, but I kind of want to

01:16:45see it.

01:16:46It might – that's one that has a chance to really go bad.

01:16:51And it has a chance where you're sitting there and going, holy cow, they just passed the baton to Spencer

01:16:56Jones.

01:16:57And so I'm fascinated to see it.

01:16:59But I think they have like the core of – like whoever is managing the team next year is managing

01:17:07– sitting here today, that's a 90-plus win team.

01:17:10If you just fix things at the margins, they – what's interesting is they have the roster you'd want going

01:17:18into a lockout because they don't have to get a big starting pitcher.

01:17:22Right.

01:17:22They don't – they might not have to get a starting pitcher.

01:17:24Right.

01:17:25They don't have to get a number two to five hitter.

01:17:28It would be nice if that thing is lingering around, like lengthen the lineup.

01:17:32Yeah, but like if you believe like Rice, Judge, Garcia, Ballinger is two to five in some way and Lombard

01:17:40and Jones, like now, like what if you get one more good hitter?

01:17:44You know, and I kind of still feel – I'll probably go down on this ship.

01:17:48I kind of think less than well should be a better hitter than he's been and was for the last

01:17:52–

01:17:52You could argue he's their second best hitter in the postseason this year.

01:17:55Yeah, was for like the last three months plus the playoffs plus is a good defensive catcher.

01:18:00They have the skeleton of a – they could win the World Series next year.

01:18:07They're starting pitching and a couple of really – some of the best – Rice, Jones, Ballinger, Garcia, they're like

01:18:15four of the top 35, 40 hitters in the game.

01:18:19Judge and Rice are in the top five to eight.

01:18:23It's really – I get it.

01:18:26We're in the bleak period.

01:18:27Yankee fans want to be – I got it, the pitchforks and the torches and do it.

01:18:32I'm not a fan.

01:18:33I don't have those emotions.

01:18:34I understand this is part of the grieving process and be angry.

01:18:40But whoever is building it and managing it moving forward, they are in a better place – and let's do

01:18:48a show on this at another time.

01:18:50They are in a better place than nearly any team will be going into a, oh, crap, we got a

01:18:57lot to do.

01:18:57We got to do it all before November 30th or we got to do it as a shotgun marriage.

01:19:02Yeah.

01:19:03Like for those three weeks as soon as like – if you remember what happened the last time and what

01:19:07was it, 21 or 21 was it?

01:19:11Where it was like, go and look, the Yankees needed to do a lot and they ended up with Josh

01:19:15Donaldson.

01:19:16You know, like they ended up doing some stuff that wasn't like great for them.

01:19:21Yeah.

01:19:22Yeah.

01:19:23Joel, that was a lot.

01:19:25Appreciate you as always.

01:19:27I'm sure like you said, we'll be doing some future episodes here about the future of this team going forward.

01:19:31And we're looking forward to your coverage throughout, man.

01:19:34Hope you enjoy the rest of the postseason and we'll catch up with you next time.

01:19:37Thank you as always, Joel.

01:19:38All right.

01:19:39And thanks everyone for watching.

01:19:40I know people have stuck with us through this and we – I'm going to speak for you, Ryan.

01:19:44I think we're both appreciative of that.

01:19:46Well said.

01:19:47We're looking forward to it.

01:19:48We'll continue to make this content engine going and we're going to keep turning this stuff out.

01:19:52Thanks, Joel.

01:19:53Thanks, Ryan.

Should the Yankees Move on from Aaron Boone After Another Failed Season? | Pinstripe Post

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