Narcissistic Traits and the Neo Charismatic Movement | Our Stories | 718 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John invites Paul to share his journey through several neo-charismatic communities, including Icthys Fellowship, the Vineyard Movement, Torchbearers International, IHOPKC, and a deliverance ministry. Paul uses narcissistic personality traits as a framework—not a diagnosis—to examine how teachings about superior leaders, unique spiritual insight, prophecy, revival, and special callings shaped his identity from childhood through adulthood.  Paul describes the process of questioning those beliefs, leaving the deliverance ministry in 2014, and gradually accepting an ordinary life without the pressure to fulfill an unusually significant destiny. He also offers practical advice for people questioning a harmful community, discusses resources that helped him reconsider how truth is evaluated, and explains how embracing human limitations brought greater peace.  CHAPTERS 00:00:00 Introduction 00:04:34 Narcissism as the Lens for Paul’s Story 00:11:29 Childhood, Missions, and Moving to England 00:15:06 Ichthus Fellowship and Spiritual Warfare 00:20:24 A Childhood Prophecy and a “Special Purpose” 00:25:00 Vineyard, Soul Survivor, and Charismatic Culture 00:29:24 Cape Ray Hall and the Search for Superior Christian Insight 00:33:08 Paul’s Introduction to IHOPKC 00:37:04 Prophecy, Special Calling, and Life at IHOPKC 00:45:32 IHOPKC’s Prophetic History and the Turn to Deliverance Ministry 00:50:33 Leaving the Movement and Embracing an Ordinary Life 00:56:56 Paul’s Advice for People in Harmful Communities ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Paul, former member of IHOPKC.

00:00:47Paul, it's good to be talking to you and to get your story about not only IHOPKC, but you've apparently

00:00:53gone through a few different groups.

00:00:55And I've noticed that people who have gone into multiple groups, they have a broader perspective of just how much

00:01:04your life can be impacted by all of this.

00:01:06I think I'll say it like that.

00:01:08My life was impacted in a similar way because I went to different sects within the group that I came

00:01:14out of.

00:01:14And each one had their own different flavor, their different version, their different spin.

00:01:19And after you combine a few of those, you get a broader perspective of just how wrong this was.

00:01:25So I'm very glad to have you on.

00:01:26Maybe if you could begin by telling everybody just a little bit about yourself.

00:01:30Yeah.

00:01:30Hey, thanks so much for having me on.

00:01:32I started listening to you right after everything happened with Mike Bickle.

00:01:36So it's been quite a ride.

00:01:38I really enjoyed the podcast.

00:01:41I really enjoyed listening to people like Jed, Brantley, Adam, Franny, Jenny, Bob, Charles, everyone else that I haven't mentioned.

00:01:50It's been great.

00:01:51Feels like I'm a little less lonely sometimes when I hear all these stories.

00:01:55So I'll just tell you a little bit about myself.

00:01:58My name's Paul.

00:01:59I'm 45 years old.

00:02:00Been married for 23 years.

00:02:02Just celebrated 23rd anniversary.

00:02:04I have three children.

00:02:06I have a bachelor's degree in communication arts and literature, which is a teaching degree from Winona State University.

00:02:13And for six years, I was an English teacher in a public middle school in Kansas City.

00:02:19And then after that, I started a small business, which I still operate today.

00:02:23And I today live in northern Colorado.

00:02:26I don't live in Kansas City anymore.

00:02:29And if I look out my window right now, I can see the Rocky Mountains, which is pretty cool.

00:02:33Though they're covered in haze today from all the fires.

00:02:37But I enjoy everything that Colorado has to offer.

00:02:41Hiking, fly fishing, going down to Denver, concerts, museums, restaurants.

00:02:47I love hanging out with my family, reading, listening to podcasts.

00:02:52So that's just a little bit about me.

00:02:54And today, I'm just going to tell the story of my life in the neo-charismatic movement.

00:03:00That's what I'd broadly call it.

00:03:02I spent time as a child in ICTIS Fellowship in London, England.

00:03:06The Vineyard Movement back in the U.S.

00:03:10Torchbearers International at Cape and Ray Hall in England, which isn't neo-charismatic, but was influential in my life.

00:03:17IHOP KC for a long time, and then finally a deliverance ministry before I exited in 2014 when I was

00:03:2433.

00:03:24So I told you I was 45.

00:03:25I'm going to stop my story when I was 33.

00:03:28It's just for the sake of time.

00:03:30I've got to stop around 2014.

00:03:32Otherwise, it will be even longer than it would be anyway.

00:03:37Yeah, a lot of people have trouble fitting everything within their story into one hour.

00:03:42It's kind of hard to do.

00:03:43But out of everything that you said, you're talking about Colorado, and you're talking about the smoke over the mountains.

00:03:49I hate to say this.

00:03:50My mouth started watering when you said this.

00:03:52We took one of our wedding anniversaries.

00:03:56We went into Denver.

00:03:56I'd never been.

00:03:58Oh, cool.

00:03:58And I went up into this town.

00:03:59You'll know the name of it.

00:04:00But it was like this old-timey casino town.

00:04:03Nothing had changed.

00:04:04And when I was there, I had the best brisket that I've had in the entire United States.

00:04:10Oh, wow.

00:04:10It was so good.

00:04:12But anyway, my mouth is watering now.

00:04:16You're welcome.

00:04:17There is so much to tell.

00:04:19So whenever you're going through all of these different shifts and adjustment with all of these different charismatic movements,

00:04:27what would you say was the common thread that bound not only them together but bound you to them?

00:04:34Oh, well, I'm glad you asked because I actually have a theme for everything I'm going to talk about today.

00:04:41So let me just introduce this theme really quickly.

00:04:47There's multiple different themes or lenses that one could look at a destructive cult story through.

00:04:54You have a historical lens, like what you do with William Branham Historical Research.

00:04:59There's a theological lens with a book like Counterfeit Kingdom by Holly Pivick, Doug Givett.

00:05:05You can look at it through a sociological lens, like Brad Christensen, Richard Florey, the rise of network Christianity.

00:05:13Legal lens, like Vanessa Johnson on YouTube.

00:05:17Even an epistemological lens, like how do we come to know what is true and all this.

00:05:24Then, finally, a psychological lens, like Stephen Hassan's BITE model of authoritarian control, Janja Lalic's Bounded Choice.

00:05:33All those lenses are super helpful to me, but the way that I'm going to tie this all together is

00:05:38looking at it through a psychological lens,

00:05:41and especially through looking at narcissistic personality disorder, or NPD.

00:05:46Now, I'm not a mental health professional.

00:05:50I can't diagnose anybody.

00:05:52I'm not diagnosing anybody.

00:05:55I'm just going to do a quick overview of NPD, and then show you how some of those symptoms tie

00:06:02into my story.

00:06:05But like I said, I'm not diagnosing anybody, and I don't have NPD either.

00:06:09I'm just going to use that as a framing device for everything I'm going to talk about.

00:06:14Does that make sense?

00:06:15Absolutely, and I'm glad you're doing this, because it is something that is really important that people grasp.

00:06:21And one thing that you said, you're not a psychologist, so you can't diagnose somebody.

00:06:27One of the things that's interesting about these cults, usually, and you can get this directly from Dr. Hassan's book,

00:06:33usually it's the narcissistic type personality that rises up to be central figure.

00:06:37But what happens is when people take that cult identity and that indoctrination into their being,

00:06:44they're being indoctrinated with the identity of a person who shares those narcissistic traits.

00:06:49What isn't in Hassan's book, which I think might relate to this podcast, which is why I'm glad you went

00:06:55there,

00:06:56when you are indoctrinated with this, you start to display many of those traits,

00:07:00even though you may not be narcissists.

00:07:02Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:03And some of those people rise up to be leaders in the movement.

00:07:06And so they may have narcissistic traits, they may not be a narcissist,

00:07:10but they have an indoctrinated narcissism, and they become leaders over people,

00:07:15then creating another cycle that just continues.

00:07:18So this thing spins out of control.

00:07:20But anyway, yes, I get it, and I'm glad you went there.

00:07:24Okay, great.

00:07:25Yeah, and I've heard you in recent podcasts start to go there a little bit.

00:07:30I've heard you talk about that.

00:07:31And so I thought, I'm glad you've talked about that,

00:07:33because you have some idea of what I'm talking about.

00:07:38So I'm just going to quickly do an overview of narcissistic personality disorder.

00:07:44I have to do it just because it's going to stick with everything that I'm going to talk about.

00:07:49So narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder,

00:07:54causes lots of problems with relationships, school, finances, work.

00:07:59It's not cool or trendy.

00:08:00People suffer from it.

00:08:02They're suffering when they have it.

00:08:04They don't flourish because of it.

00:08:06They may seem to be riding high on success.

00:08:08They may seem to have it all together, but they probably don't.

00:08:12And here's a couple symptoms, and you can see these symptoms from a Mayo Clinic website.

00:08:17I just pulled off a couple here.

00:08:19People with NPD have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance,

00:08:24expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements,

00:08:28make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are.

00:08:30They're preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty, or the perfect mate.

00:08:35They believe they're superior to others and can only spend time with equally superior people.

00:08:40And I'm really going to just focus on that superior part of it, where people believe they are intrinsically superior

00:08:49to other people.

00:08:50They believe they possess superior insight or wisdom for living, and they believe their calling or destiny is unusually significant.

00:08:58And therefore, they're superior to that of other people.

00:09:01So, it's really a tight focus for my story and what I'm going to talk about.

00:09:06And the most important thing to really grasp with all this, these, you know, with people with narcissistic personality disorder,

00:09:13I'll just say NPD.

00:09:14They believe they're superior, they believe they have superior insight, they believe they have an unusually significant calling, and they

00:09:21believe all this without strong evidence.

00:09:23So, that, without strong evidence, is really something that I think people need to think about when they're encountering people

00:09:31like this.

00:09:32Yeah.

00:09:33Okay, so, I already said all my caveats.

00:09:37I'm not a psychologist.

00:09:38I don't think I have NPD or anything like that.

00:09:41So, I'm really going to just focus all my story and, you know, up to the age when I was

00:09:4633 in 2014, just looking at it through the lens of narcissism.

00:09:50So, anything you want me to clarify from that or any thoughts?

00:09:54No, I think you really cleared that up for people who may be unfamiliar.

00:09:59And for people who are familiar, I want to take it a step further than that.

00:10:03Because churches, believe it or not, have this unique ability to maybe not breed narcissists, that would be the wrong

00:10:11phrase, but unintentionally reward people with those traits.

00:10:15Because you have a pastor who's a leader, right, is a built-in authority.

00:10:19Many churches, they have and show admiration for the pastor, even healthy churches that I'm talking about.

00:10:25So, you have the built-in ability for somebody who has those psychological leanings to go that direction.

00:10:32Now, take it out of the normal church and put it into churches like you're talking about, IHOPKC.

00:10:39Whenever you have something that it's a group that the church, their entire ideology is built around the leader.

00:10:46In other words, the prophetic history.

00:10:47If you take the person out of the prophetic history, the church is no more.

00:10:51They're completely imploded.

00:10:52When you have it to that level, now, whether the leader is narcissist or not, it puts them into a

00:10:59position where they can start to show traits, even though they may not have any leanings towards narcissism.

00:11:06Because the system has built and enabled this to grow within their personality.

00:11:11Yeah, and like I said, I don't think I have NPD, but as you'll see through the story, I think

00:11:18that I started to develop some symptoms that would be similar to NPD.

00:11:22Once again, not a psychologist.

00:11:24I'm not going to try to diagnose myself.

00:11:27So, let me just go, let me start at the very beginning.

00:11:31I'm going to start at the very beginning.

00:11:32People will laugh because I'm going to start when I was born.

00:11:35But remember, I'm just going up to 33.

00:11:37It's not going to be my whole life story.

00:11:38And even this is abridged.

00:11:41I'm leaving so much out just for the sake of focus.

00:11:44But I was born in 1981, Madison, Wisconsin.

00:11:47My dad was a grant writer or overseer for the state of Wisconsin.

00:11:53So, he had a government job.

00:11:54I remember going down to the Capitol for like take your kid to work days.

00:12:00So, he was successful there.

00:12:02My mom was a copywriter at the Forest Products Lab.

00:12:04And then after I was born, she stayed home to raise me.

00:12:07And I had a great time in Madison, Wisconsin growing up there.

00:12:11The beginning of my life, real quiet place, big trees, three big lakes in the center of Madison, fishing at

00:12:19the lakes, going to the Henry Vilas Zoo.

00:12:22Anybody who's from Madison is going to know all this stuff.

00:12:26But just really cool.

00:12:27My parents were very loving, had a really great first six years of childhood.

00:12:32And then in 1987, my dad started to pray through these little missionary prayer cards that he got and really

00:12:43developed a heart for international missions and joined a missionary organization called Operation Mobilization started by a man named George

00:12:52Verwer.

00:12:52And just real quick about George Verwer, he was a Moody Bible Institute graduate.

00:12:58He started with missionary trips to Mexico.

00:13:02And if you want to know more about him, there's a documentary on YouTube called George for Real that I

00:13:08think is really interesting.

00:13:11So in 1987, my dad joined Operation Mobilization, and we moved to London, England, which is a borough of Bromley

00:13:19in Southeast, or which is, we moved to London, England, and then moved to a borough called Bromley, which is

00:13:27Southeast London.

00:13:28And my dad joined what was called ICT, or the International Coordinating Team for Operation Mobilization.

00:13:34And there was actually in 1987, there was a great storm hit London, and so many trees fell over.

00:13:44Anybody from England will remember this.

00:13:46And even if you see the movie Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, you'll see trees that have been blown over,

00:13:54and it's from that storm.

00:13:56And I remember that storm in 1987 when I was six, it was crazy.

00:14:00But I went to Church of England schools there.

00:14:03It was all overtly Christian, which is very different than the U.S.

00:14:07We even sang, we even had like a church service every Wednesday morning where we sang songs of praise all

00:14:15together as a school.

00:14:17And all the schools did this, you know, that were Church of England schools, because that's the public school in

00:14:22England.

00:14:23But I had many good experiences in England.

00:14:25You know, we lived in London, and we went down to Harrods to see Christmas window displays, went to Trafalgar

00:14:31Square, riding the tube and the train all around London, double-decker buses, school field trips to the Tower of

00:14:39London.

00:14:40So, you know, I'm going to get into some bad stuff, but there's a lot of good stuff there, too.

00:14:45It was a really fun experience.

00:14:47And, you know, my parents were loving people.

00:14:50So, that's kind of the setting there.

00:14:53Now, in 1987, my dad and my parents began attending this neo-charismatic church called Icthys Fellowship.

00:15:03Have you ever heard of Icthys?

00:15:05No.

00:15:06Oh, it's really interesting.

00:15:07Okay.

00:15:08So, Icthys was started by a man named Roger Forster.

00:15:13He was born in 1983.

00:15:14He had a Methodist upbringing.

00:15:18He earned some theology degrees from Cambridge, spent two years in the Royal Air Force as a chaplain, then started

00:15:25Icthys Fellowship in his home in 1974.

00:15:28Today, Icthys is still going strong, even though Forster died in 2024.

00:15:33But Icthys has ten congregations around London.

00:15:37Have you ever heard of Graham Kendrick, the worship leader?

00:15:40Shine Jesus Shine?

00:15:41Yeah.

00:15:41He came out of Icthys.

00:15:43So, my parents began attending this fellowship.

00:15:47And then in 1987, right around the time they started there, so all this is happening right away, Roger Forster

00:15:56joined with two other church groups, a church group called Pioneer and then YWAM.

00:16:02And they started this organization called March for Jesus or this event called March for Jesus where everyone would march

00:16:10around the city of London.

00:16:12And Forster viewed these marches as like weapons of spiritual warfare to fight against Satan's rule.

00:16:19And he explicitly said that, and I, you know, looked up some of his quotes and stuff.

00:16:24So, I remember as a kid taking part in these marches for Jesus, probably in the early 90s.

00:16:31I don't know if it was, I don't know if we went to the first one in 87.

00:16:33But what's really interesting is that in 1986, at the same time, Peter Wagner was writing Spiritual Power and Church

00:16:41Growth.

00:16:41He was writing Territorial Spirits.

00:16:44Frank Peretti wrote This Present Darkness in 1986.

00:16:48So, there was all like parallel thinking of like, we're going to fight against these demons and stuff like this.

00:16:55And even though I was very young, it started this idea in me that my leaders have this unique and

00:17:08superior insight into reality.

00:17:11And what is interesting is that unique and insight, that superior insight into reality kind of placed them at the

00:17:18center of cosmological battles between good and evil.

00:17:23So, even when I was six years old, it's like, this is the milieu I'm growing up in.

00:17:28You know, my leaders are special.

00:17:30The group is special.

00:17:32You know, and we've got a battle, we've got a role to play in this spiritual battle to take back

00:17:38London for the kingdom of God.

00:17:43Now, like I said at the beginning, and I'm not laughing because I know lots of people believe this, that's

00:17:49fine.

00:17:49I'm just saying, without much evidence, it's like, we just, oh, we think this is what's happening.

00:17:57So, let's march around the city and sing, shine Jesus, shine, and that will mean Satan will fall, or something

00:18:05like that.

00:18:05And there's no way to verify it, and there's no way to even prove it false.

00:18:08It's unfalsifiable.

00:18:09You could say whatever you wanted actually happened, and no one would know the difference.

00:18:15So, have you, you've heard of this present darkness, but you've never heard of like Forrester or anything like that?

00:18:21You know, after you said that, I just, I'm really bad at remembering names, which is, it's one of my

00:18:27biggest downfalls in what I'm doing.

00:18:29But I remember reading about that event, because I was digging into early Pentecostalism, and I found where Charles Fox

00:18:37Parham was influenced by both John Dowie and Frank Sanford.

00:18:42And I was trying to find more about Frank Sanford's cult, which is really weird, because it's a fundamental part

00:18:49of Pentecostal history, but you don't find much about it.

00:18:52And so, I'm digging into it, and I'm finding that the spiritual warfare concept started probably long before him, but

00:18:59he was doing it.

00:19:00He was sailing around the world, preaching at a continent as though he had the power to do this.

00:19:06And at the same time, so I'm studying narcissism, I'm studying Pentecostalism, I'm studying all kinds of different things.

00:19:13And then it all kind of hit me whenever I read that, because that's the visions of grandeur.

00:19:19You literally have something that nobody can prove, but you can convince them that you need to do this, you

00:19:25need to follow me and do this.

00:19:27And they have no way to qualify what it is that you're doing.

00:19:30No, absolutely no way.

00:19:32Right. And, you know, that goes back to that epistemological lens that you can look through, which is a whole

00:19:38other story.

00:19:40So, that's kind of where I'm growing up in London.

00:19:43And then, in 1988, there was a little revival in London, and my dad took me to it.

00:19:50I don't think it's famous or has a name.

00:19:54But there was a man speaking there named David Pawson.

00:19:58David Pawson, he's an older English gentleman.

00:20:02He passed away in 2020.

00:20:04He was born in 1930.

00:20:06He also got degrees from Cambridge.

00:20:09He was a chaplain in the RAF, a Methodist minister.

00:20:13And then he left Methodism to become a Baptist minister.

00:20:15And when he was Baptist, he embraced the charismatic movement.

00:20:19And he became a bridge of sorts between evangelicals and charismatics.

00:20:23And, like I said, he died in 2020.

00:20:25But my dad took me to this revival where David Pawson was preaching.

00:20:30And it was an old Anglican stone church, you know, dark wood pews, stained glass windows, stone floor.

00:20:38I sat in a pew with my dad at the back of this revival.

00:20:41And I do remember a man who kind of came down with, like, holy laughter.

00:20:45He was laughing hysterically and uncontrollably.

00:20:48And I was a little kid.

00:20:49I had no idea what was going on.

00:20:50But no one seemed scared.

00:20:52So, I didn't seem scared either.

00:20:54It was just kind of strange.

00:20:55I even remember asking my dad on the way to the revival, like, Dad, am I going to be able

00:21:02to fly after this revival?

00:21:04Like, I had no idea what was going on.

00:21:08So, but what was interesting is that at the end of the revival, or at the end of this meeting,

00:21:13David Pawson said,

00:21:14I have a prophecy that I'd like to share with a person named Paul.

00:21:20Now, if you remember, my name is Paul.

00:21:23I was too shy to say anything.

00:21:25And in this church, there was maybe 100 to 200 people.

00:21:30Nobody raised their hand and said their name was Paul.

00:21:33So, David Pawson said, well, I'm sorry, maybe I got it wrong, and then ended the service.

00:21:40Well, at the end of the service, my dad took me up to David Pawson, and he said, hey, you

00:21:45know, my son's name is Paul.

00:21:47And I was fine with that.

00:21:48He wasn't embarrassing me or anything.

00:21:51And David Pawson looked at me, and he said, he said, God has a very special purpose for your life.

00:21:57And that was it.

00:21:58He didn't say anything more specific than that.

00:22:01You know, and I said, you know, thanks.

00:22:03You know, I'm a little seven-year-old.

00:22:04I don't know what I'm doing.

00:22:07Now, there's many different ways someone could have received that.

00:22:11And I was young, you know, I was seven or eight.

00:22:14I could imagine myself completely forgetting about it and ignoring it, but it really kind of became the background music

00:22:22of my life.

00:22:23Like, I really kind of lived in this expectation that someday I'd have this unique and special calling that would

00:22:30be revealed to me.

00:22:31And if you remember those three signs of narcissism or three symptoms, one was that someone believes they have an

00:22:39unusually significant purpose.

00:22:41And I, from the time I was seven, I started to believe that about myself.

00:22:47And it was always in the context of the neocharismatic groups I was growing up in.

00:22:53It's funny.

00:22:53As you were thinking about that, you were thinking from the framework of this was something that he could have

00:22:59gotten many ways.

00:23:01And I'm sitting here thinking, okay, I'm going to pull up my internet, and I'm going to find out what's

00:23:06the percentage of the number of men named Paul back in the 90s.

00:23:09And it's like one in ten, man.

00:23:11It's way up there.

00:23:14And those vague prophecies, what's interesting is the group that we came out of, we would condemn that kind of

00:23:20thing.

00:23:21But there were traveling ministers that would do it, and they thought they were the best thing since sliced cheese.

00:23:28But whenever you give such a vague prophecy, what do you do with that?

00:23:31And where in the Bible do you find a prophecy that's that vague?

00:23:35And what would they have done with that?

00:23:37They would probably be like you, okay, that's fine.

00:23:40That's nice.

00:23:40I'm glad you said that.

00:23:41I think the only thing it really contributes is just like to a personality disorder.

00:23:49Because you just think you're a super special person.

00:23:52And it's completely unfalsifiable.

00:23:56It's unverifiable.

00:23:57So anyway, I'll move on.

00:24:01So my time in England eventually came to an end.

00:24:05And just something that was very interesting is that in that documentary, George For Real, George Verwer talks about recognizing

00:24:12that he thought he was a very significant, superior person.

00:24:17And that he thought he was better than everyone else.

00:24:21And he kind of instilled OM with a little bit of that DNA.

00:24:25What is unusual is that he actually recognized it, and he recognized how harmful it was to people.

00:24:30And he worked to help mitigate that in many ways.

00:24:35But it just contributes to the whole context of where I was growing up in England at that time.

00:24:41I was like, George Verwer's important.

00:24:43My dad's important.

00:24:44I'm important.

00:24:45We're in the center of a cosmological battle between good and evil for the spirit of London.

00:24:50All that's happening there in the background.

00:24:52So I came back to Madison, Wisconsin, back to the United States in 1995.

00:25:00My parents joined a vineyard fellowship church.

00:25:03And the whole thing was a huge culture shock to me, just coming back to America anyway.

00:25:10I left a lot of friends behind.

00:25:11So I don't remember a lot of things in the vineyard movement.

00:25:16I do remember the time where we had leaders go visit the Toronto Blessing.

00:25:21And then when they came back to our vineyard fellowship, they had a revival meeting where they were throwing Holy

00:25:27Spirit snowballs at each other, where they would pretend to hold the Holy Spirit in their hand and throw it

00:25:33at somebody else.

00:25:34And then that person would fall out in the Holy Spirit, which I think I was like 14 or 15

00:25:40at the time.

00:25:41And I didn't know what to think of that.

00:25:43But I also, at the same time, didn't dismiss it completely because that was the culture I grew up in.

00:25:51So that was vineyard.

00:25:52Then halfway through high school in 97, I actually returned to England to visit friends.

00:25:58And I went to a soul survivor conference there where I got to hear Matt Redman lead worship.

00:26:03I think he debuted the Heart of Worship.

00:26:06I got to listen to Kevin Prosh.

00:26:08I remember being in the front row listening to Kevin Prosh's band.

00:26:12And then people would argue about who's the best worship leader, Matt Redman or Kevin Prosh and all that stuff.

00:26:17And then I got to hear Mike Pilavachi speak, who himself had allegations of abuse against him.

00:26:24But it was all in that context of like, you know, Christianity is really awesome when we're all together with

00:26:31a bunch of, you know, young people doing really important things, listening to really important people.

00:26:38Then came back to, then, you know, that was just for a summer.

00:26:41I was in England in 97, then, you know, got back to Madison.

00:26:45And then my parents actually left the Vineyard Fellowship, and we went to a church in Madison called Mad City,

00:26:52led by a senior pastor, Shane Holden, who actually, and Shane actually later became an IHOP KC board member.

00:26:59But he really was trying to kind of help the situation right around the time where everything came out with

00:27:05Mike.

00:27:05So he believed victims.

00:27:06He wasn't part of any cover up as far as I know.

00:27:09And even his time on the board lasted quite quickly.

00:27:13But it was a lot of connections to later on in my life there.

00:27:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:27:27reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:27:32You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:27:40On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:27:48John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:27:54You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:28:00If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:28:06top.

00:28:07And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:28:13watching.

00:28:13On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:28:18As you probably have seen on the podcast, I've been digging a little bit into what happened in the UK

00:28:22because as I was trying to investigate the transition from the latter reign into – there's this weird transition that

00:28:31happened with the shepherding movement before it became charismatic movement and finally NAR.

00:28:36I was looking at John Wimber.

00:28:38I was looking at what happened in the UK.

00:28:39And there's some other groups over there that caught my interest, but there's too many names.

00:28:45And I struggle with all of the names.

00:28:47It's so big.

00:28:48Yeah, it's such a – it spreads like a virus.

00:28:50I recently started this series with Pia Hugo and we're talking about – she's talking about people of destiny, which

00:28:56is integral to everything you're talking about, everything that I've had in the podcast.

00:29:00But not many people recognize how significant that actually was.

00:29:06So, so many things to tie together here.

00:29:09John, I can't get into this, but after 2014, I went to a church that was highly influenced by people

00:29:16of destiny or sovereign grace ministries.

00:29:18I don't have time for it.

00:29:20But okay, so I'm just going to keep on going here.

00:29:23So, after high school, I went back to England for a year to go to this Bible college called Cape

00:29:32and Ray Hall, which is part of Torchbearers International, founded by Major Ian Thomas.

00:29:37So, Major Ian Thomas was this exchanged life Christian teacher.

00:29:42It's not neo-charismatic, but it came out of this movement called the Keswick Convention, where these people in England

00:29:50had this idea that Christ didn't just come to die for the forgiveness of sins.

00:29:56He came to live the Christian life through you.

00:29:59So, the Bible college would talk a lot about Christ in you, the hope of glory, how if you can

00:30:06just figure out a way, Christ will live through you to live the Christian life.

00:30:14And then you'll live this victorious Christian life where you don't sin and you do all the stuff that you're

00:30:19supposed to do.

00:30:21Now, I had a fun time at Cape and Ray.

00:30:24It was in an idyllic part of England.

00:30:27It was like a BBC manor from like Downton Abbey or something that we stayed at.

00:30:33It was beautiful.

00:30:34I made great friends.

00:30:36We had a great time.

00:30:39But at the same time, I was learning like just yet another leader who has some superior insight into the

00:30:47world.

00:30:48And if only I could grasp that insight, then I could be the super Christian I was always wanting to

00:30:54be.

00:30:55And I remember being even so confused by this teaching.

00:30:58I remember pulling one of the Bible teachers aside once and asking them,

00:31:02I don't understand how this works.

00:31:04I don't understand how practically I'm supposed to let Jesus live through me.

00:31:10And they would even say Jesus.

00:31:13They wouldn't say the Holy Spirit or something like that.

00:31:17And I just got kind of a word salad answer from the teacher because I don't even really think he

00:31:24understood what he was talking about.

00:31:26But I'm sure there's lots of people who think they really do understand what they're talking about and I'm not

00:31:31trying to make fun of them.

00:31:32I'm just saying that I never really understood that.

00:31:35I had a great time at Cape and Ray Hall.

00:31:38But I didn't understand what they were talking about, except still had this idea,

00:31:43Oh, Major Ian Thomas, another great person.

00:31:45If only I could live like him.

00:31:47If only I could, you know, grasp this superior Christian wisdom.

00:31:52You know, maybe I'd be great like him.

00:31:55Now, this is interesting, but like Torch Bears has different schools all around the world.

00:32:04And one of them is in Estes Park, Colorado.

00:32:07It's called Ravencrest.

00:32:10And Ravencrest has a couple infamous alumni, Bob Scott and Mike Bickle.

00:32:18So, those two guys actually went to the same type of organization that I went to after high school, even

00:32:24though they went to it, you know, a long time before.

00:32:26And I remember Bob Scott talking about reading the book, Reese Howell's Intercessor, and then meeting the author, Norman Grubb,

00:32:35and how disillusioning that was for him.

00:32:37And I had to read Reese Howell's Intercessor at Cape and Ray.

00:32:41So, I wonder if Bob and Mike had to read that book at Ravencrest.

00:32:47I don't know if they ever told where they read it.

00:32:49But I just thought that was an interesting connection when I read Bob's book and later talked to him about

00:32:55it.

00:32:57So, you know, after that year, I went back to America and I started college.

00:33:04I went to Winona State University in Minnesota.

00:33:09And right around 2001, I was going to a Pentecostal church, and they knew about IHOPKC and organized a trip

00:33:23down to the trailers when IHOPKC was first in these little mobile homes that they had been put together.

00:33:29So, we went down in 2001, and, you know, Misty Edwards is leading worship on the piano a couple feet

00:33:35away.

00:33:36Mike's there in the prayer room.

00:33:38You know, Mike prayed.

00:33:39I never got to know Mike or anything like that, but he prayed for me.

00:33:42He put his hand on my chest and shouted, fire, fire!

00:33:46You know, and I didn't feel anything or anything like that.

00:33:50But that was my first introduction.

00:33:51And I remember Jed Hartley talking about the bumps in the carpet at the IHOPKC prayer trailers.

00:33:59I remember that.

00:34:00I remember those bumps in the carpet.

00:34:02And I think, wow, did I see Jed Hartley as a little kid, like, running around those trailers trying to

00:34:06staple those in?

00:34:08So, that was in 2001.

00:34:11And then in January 2002, I'm pretty sure this is, IHOPKC had their first One Thing conference.

00:34:18And I went down there with a bunch of other college students, and that was the time where I really

00:34:24got, like, indoctrinated into it.

00:34:28I remember watching Mike preach this sermon on David running to God when he sinned instead of running away from

00:34:40God.

00:34:40And I just have this memory of Mike on stage running from one side of the stage to the other,

00:34:45representing running from God or running to God.

00:34:47And it was a moment in my life where I thought, oh, this is now, like, the superior wisdom, really.

00:34:56You know, I didn't understand Cape and Ray.

00:34:58I didn't understand vineyard stuff.

00:35:01But this makes sense to me.

00:35:03Like, I can live the Christian life if I know I just can run to God in my weaknesses and

00:35:11my shortcomings and stuff like that.

00:35:12And I just dove in headfirst, got Dwayne Roberts' Apostolic Prayer CD, listened to all the Mike Bickle teachings, Song

00:35:22of Solomon, End Times, started hearing snippets of the prophetic history.

00:35:26But I didn't, like, I didn't even enter it hearing the prophetic history at the onset of it.

00:35:34And then during 2002 would go from Winona down to Kansas City to, you know, visit maybe two or three

00:35:44times or something like that and just go into the prayer room, study, listen to different teachings or something like

00:35:52that.

00:35:52Then a year after that, they had another One Thing conference.

00:35:56This was, like, over New Year's Eve, December 2002, January 2003, which was just, you know, another incredible kind of

00:36:07hype conference.

00:36:09Loud music, probably 10,000 to 20,000 people.

00:36:12So, I remember going to a breakout session where Mike and Diane answered questions on what makes a great marriage.

00:36:21Pause for laughter.

00:36:25I'm like so dumbfounded I couldn't laugh.

00:36:27It's crazy.

00:36:30But, you know, it's just like you go down there and everyone's jumping around.

00:36:33You just think, oh, I found the people.

00:36:35I found the superior people and I'm the superior person and we've all got this going on.

00:36:40And it really was quite something.

00:36:43So, I was totally into IHOPKC then.

00:36:47And I hope everyone kind of understands, like, the threads of NPD going through everything.

00:36:54Superior people, superior wisdom, unusually significant purpose.

00:36:59It was just rooted in everything there.

00:37:04Halfway through college, I took a little bit of a detour from IHOPKC.

00:37:10I was still involved, but in June of 2003, a person that my dad knew from Madison organized a retreat

00:37:20in Colorado at this place called Wind River Ranch.

00:37:24And Gary Weins was the speaker there.

00:37:26I don't know if you know of Gary Weins from IHOPKC, but he was a leader at IHOPKC early on

00:37:32and then left at some point.

00:37:35I can't remember when.

00:37:37But at this retreat at Wind River Ranch, Gary Weins was the speaker and there were other prophetic people there.

00:37:42And one day I was sitting down for lunch and this prophetic woman looked at me and she said, God

00:37:50has one special thing for you to do that will be your life's focus.

00:37:55And I had lived all my life, you know, in the shadow of that David Paulson prophecy.

00:38:01And then in all these communities and groups where you think there's all these special people on stage and you're

00:38:08just like, oh, if only I could be one of them.

00:38:10And it was just like this added little boost, this nitrogen boost of NPD.

00:38:21You're a superior person.

00:38:23You've got an unusually significant purpose.

00:38:27Without any real evidence, except just people telling you that, you know, nobody knows who I am.

00:38:34That's fine.

00:38:36And I haven't done anything unusually significant and that's totally fine.

00:38:41But it's just those little seeds just planted in you, planted in you.

00:38:46And it's the whole culture too.

00:38:48No one has a prophecy for anyone where they're like, hey, guess what?

00:38:52You're just going to be a normal, ordinary person.

00:38:55Exactly.

00:38:56I am so glad you said that.

00:38:58I have wanted to say that, but I've been waiting for somebody to talk about it.

00:39:01There's not a single prophecy that says you're just going to live an ordinary life and you're going to die

00:39:06and nobody's going to know who you were except me and your church body.

00:39:11And that's like, that's the majority of people in the pews, right?

00:39:15Yeah, it is.

00:39:16And I want to say I lead a very happy, wonderful, blessed life in many ways.

00:39:27And I'm very special to my friends and family as they are special to me.

00:39:33We have those significant relationships that are very meaningful and very powerful.

00:39:40But I'm not going to be on a stage talking to millions of people and that's never going to happen.

00:39:45And I'm so glad it didn't happen while I was in this movement.

00:39:51So, anyway, after that little retreat at Wind River Ranch, I got married in 2003.

00:39:59And my family is really important to me, but just for the sake of time, I really can't talk much

00:40:05about my wife or my kids.

00:40:06And then in 2005, after I graduated with my teaching degree, I moved to Kansas City with my wife.

00:40:16And it really was like arriving to live in the Magic Castle at Disneyland.

00:40:22It's like there are fireworks every night.

00:40:24There's a parade every day.

00:40:26I mean, it's just like, and it's like, oh, you saw Mickey Mouse on TV?

00:40:31Oh, there he is on the stage.

00:40:32It's Mike Bickle.

00:40:34It's just like, it really was a total fantasy land.

00:40:38So, I just wanted, I hope I can tell people, or I hope I can express just how special it

00:40:45was for me at the moment.

00:40:46Like when I moved down there, I just thought I had arrived at the promised land.

00:40:51And my life just revolved around IHOPKC.

00:40:54Even though I had a full-time teaching job the entire time I was there, most of my life was

00:41:01really about IHOPKC.

00:41:03I was on prayer room staff for a while, where I did 12 hours a week in the prayer room,

00:41:08and I was an usher.

00:41:08I would go to EGS, Encounter God Services on the weekends, go to conferences, do private Bible studies.

00:41:15Every Sunday morning, go to Forerunner Christian Fellowship.

00:41:19Even there were times where I wasn't on prayer room staff.

00:41:21I would do six to ten hours a week in the prayer room, probably from 2005 to 2011.

00:41:27So, we're talking about like six years of just really focused time in the prayer room in Kansas City.

00:41:34I just really baptized into it, really indoctrinated into it, listen to all of Mike's teachings, songs, songs, go to

00:41:42E12 groups, Power of a Focused Life, Power Encounters and Finances, Book of Daniel, Life of David.

00:41:50I'm just saying all these.

00:41:51Anyone from IHOPKC will just be like, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:41:53You know, looking at Revelation, apostolic prayers, and I really just thought, oh, wow, I am fulfilling my life's purpose,

00:42:01and one day it's going to culminate in my unusually significant calling being revealed specifically as to what it might

00:42:10be.

00:42:10And by this time, I just thought, well, it's got to be standing on a stage telling people about my

00:42:15unique insights into God, because that's all I saw modeled.

00:42:20And then I just thought, everything will culminate in a procession down Blue Ridge Boulevard to Arrowhead Stadium, where the

00:42:27great end times revival will break out, and everyone's going to get healed, and the end times will begin.

00:42:32And it's just this carrot on a stick where you're just like, it's going to happen.

00:42:36It's going to happen any moment.

00:42:39It's going to happen this year.

00:42:40Oh, there's prophetic signs that it's going to happen maybe next year.

00:42:46Six years of that.

00:42:47Just heavy indoctrination.

00:42:50And even before that, my entire life was quite indoctrinated into the whole thing as well.

00:42:56And I did all that while working 40-plus hours a week as a public school teacher.

00:43:00I had good performance evaluations.

00:43:02I really enjoyed teaching.

00:43:05But it was like teaching was my side hustle.

00:43:09And IHOPKC was the thing that I really cared about.

00:43:13Yeah, there's a reason why they call it a high-demand group.

00:43:16It's a high-control group, obviously, and we're talking about some of the control, but it is also a high

00:43:20-demand group.

00:43:21What's interesting for me, whenever I was escaping what I did, I did some work briefly with Dr. Stephen Hassan,

00:43:28and he was explaining how all of this worked.

00:43:30I rejected the notion that my group was a high-demand group.

00:43:34I did see the high-control, but I rejected the high-demand because we didn't do many of the things

00:43:39that you did in IHOPKC where you're sleep-deprived and all of these things.

00:43:43He did in the Moonies, and that's what he wrote about.

00:43:45But long after processing all of this, I realized that different groups in different ways have different tools for making

00:43:56it more high-demand.

00:43:57We actually were a high-demand group, but the focus of the demand was actually inside of ourselves.

00:44:03We were listening to the recordings.

00:44:05We were doing all of these ritualistic things, which is weird.

00:44:08But all of that aside, being in IHOPKC and the things that you've been through, it was levels worse, I

00:44:15think, than even what I escaped.

00:44:16And if you stop and think about that, whenever they talk about the cults and they talk about some of

00:44:23the more destructive groups,

00:44:25Branimism is one of the more destructive.

00:44:27You don't hear the same level of destructive being talked about with IHOPKC, yet they are more high-demand.

00:44:33Maybe the difference is IHOPKC was just maybe a little less isolated, and we could interact with other people, but

00:44:43I don't know the answer.

00:44:45And I know plenty of people from IHOPKC that had psychotic breaks from reality.

00:44:52That's sad.

00:44:53I know people also, and Branimism, same kind of thing.

00:44:57I mean, honestly, whenever you're in a system that taxes your brain that heavily, and you were talking about the

00:45:03imprint of an identity from whether it's a narcissist, actually diagnosed narcissist, or somebody who just has the traits.

00:45:13When those traits get in you and they're not part of your internal makeup, it has to wreak havoc inside

00:45:17your head.

00:45:18Oh, yeah, for sure, because I don't think that I necessarily would have developed any of these traits by myself.

00:45:26But I really started to think that I was just a real special person, and one day everybody would see

00:45:30it.

00:45:31I'll continue on with my story.

00:45:33So, in 2009, IHOPKC had their 10-year anniversary, and Mike retold the prophetic history.

00:45:43And everyone gathered in the Forerunner Christian Fellowship Auditorium for Mike to do these really long sessions.

00:45:49I think it was like four or five hours every night for three nights.

00:45:53And it was like listening to Moses come down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets.

00:45:58I mean, it was just like such an emotionally charged time.

00:46:04And he just laid out the prophetic history, all the different stories.

00:46:10I remember one story in particular where he claimed that God told him that God was inviting Mike to be

00:46:20a part of a work that will touch the ends of the earth.

00:46:23And Mike responded, yes, I will do that.

00:46:26And then God responded, you have only said yes, but you have not yet done it.

00:46:31Many have said yes, but did not do it.

00:46:34Beware, lest your brethren steal these from your heart.

00:46:38And the whole thing is just putting Mike Bickle on the pedestal of all pedestals as the most superior, significant

00:46:45person you could ever imagine,

00:46:47with the most incredible divine purpose that anyone has ever had in the history of the world, possibly more than

00:46:55Jesus Christ himself.

00:46:58It is impossible to exaggerate.

00:47:00For me, I know that not everyone at IHOP KC held Mike in this regard.

00:47:09But I didn't know him personally off the stage.

00:47:12So, everything I knew was just stage persona.

00:47:14And I had grown up in this culture of stage personas.

00:47:18And to me, Mike was just like the pinnacle of Christianity.

00:47:22And if I stick with this guy, I'm going to see a great revival at the end of days.

00:47:28And I'm going to be a part of it.

00:47:30And I'm going to be this special person who's a part of it.

00:47:34And then, after he told that prophetic history, I think later that year, the IHOP student awakening happened.

00:47:43And, you know, I was still in the milieu.

00:47:46Now, I know we're kind of getting to the end of our time here.

00:47:49So, I'm going to wrap this up a little bit.

00:47:51And I can't even really talk much about this deliverance ministry I was involved in.

00:47:57But I eventually became a little disillusioned with IHOP.

00:48:00I found that I was languishing.

00:48:03And then, there were a couple that came into my life who led a deliverance ministry based on Brian Brent's

00:48:11Freedom Prayer Manual.

00:48:12And I just want to say those names in case somebody recognizes that.

00:48:16But their whole idea was, God has original design for your life.

00:48:21Because of your sin, you've allowed demons to come in and mess with that original design.

00:48:26And the leaders claimed they were the people who could tell you what those demons were and how you could

00:48:34pray them off your life.

00:48:37And that captured me at the time.

00:48:39It's, you know, another, other ideas of like, oh, wait a second.

00:48:44Maybe Mike Bickle is a superior person.

00:48:47But maybe these people, I know them personally, they've got the superior insight.

00:48:52Maybe they're going to unlock my unusually significant calling.

00:48:56Maybe they're the special people who are really going to help me.

00:48:59So, that really captured me there.

00:49:03And we met them in Kansas City for probably five years.

00:49:10I had a little bit of overlap between IHOP, KC, and this deliverance ministry.

00:49:16And then probably around 2012 or so, I really kind of went full bore into the deliverance ministry.

00:49:24And that was when this ministry moved from Kansas City to Colorado.

00:49:28And that's how I came out here to Colorado.

00:49:33But very shortly after we moved to Colorado, and we moved in 2012, by 2014, everything had fallen apart.

00:49:41And I had started to learn just a little bit about NPD and about narcissism.

00:49:48And starting to see some of these patterns in my leaders.

00:49:51And this almost sounds like I'm making the story up for the podcast, but this happened.

00:49:57And I remember asking one of the deliverance ministry leaders, would you ever be able to consider that you're not

00:50:04a special person?

00:50:06And the leader just, without a beat, said, no.

00:50:10And it's just like, yeah, there we go.

00:50:12There's no questioning of the superiority of people who demonstrate some of these traits.

00:50:22It's when they're really into it.

00:50:24You know, when it's like, wow, they're really strongly demonstrating some of these traits.

00:50:29It's very hard to question any of that.

00:50:33So, I said I was going to end in 2014, right at the time this deliverance ministry ends.

00:50:38And, you know, that's what I'm going to do.

00:50:39I'm just going to wrap it up here.

00:50:42Kind of summarize it.

00:50:43But I really had been indoctrinated, you know, during those first 33 years of my life to believe my Christian

00:50:51leaders were intrinsically superior people.

00:50:54And possessed unique insight and wisdom and had unusually significant purpose.

00:50:59The communities I was a part of were the same way.

00:51:03Intrinsically superior to other communities.

00:51:06Possessed unique insight and wisdom.

00:51:08Had significant purpose.

00:51:09And I was the same way.

00:51:10I was just indoctrinated into it.

00:51:12I thought I was a superior person.

00:51:14I thought I had this insight into God.

00:51:16You know, that it mostly I just borrowed from the leaders.

00:51:19And that one day my, you know, purpose would be revealed, you know, to the world.

00:51:26I mean, I really thought these things.

00:51:28And now when I think back on it, I think those thoughts are more indicative of a mental health disorder

00:51:35than they are of anything approaching the truth.

00:51:38So, I learned a lot about cults.

00:51:40I read a lot.

00:51:42I read many cult books, listened to many cult podcasts, you know, watched lectures from cult experts and learned all

00:51:51this.

00:51:51And this is just so brief summary of everything that happened since then.

00:51:59Then, in October 2023, I joined a Facebook group called Recovering from IHOP.

00:52:04And the very next day after I joined it, the allegations from Mike Bickle came out.

00:52:08And then over the next couple years, Tammy Wood's article appeared in the Kansas City Star.

00:52:14Julie Roy has published a bunch of stuff.

00:52:16I even, Kevin Prosh came back into my life through the dash cam footage of a police officer who was

00:52:24arresting a shirtless Kevin Prosh with Misty Edwards, which blew my mind.

00:52:28And I want to take that seriously because I don't know the horrible situation that Misty's involved in or I

00:52:36don't even know anything about it.

00:52:37But wild to see Kevin Prosh in those photos.

00:52:41You know, Deborah Perkins eventually revealed her identity.

00:52:44And then we had the Firefly Report published.

00:52:47And all this time, I had been learning more and more about these things.

00:52:51But after the truth came out about Mike, I really thought about all the people who stood on stage next

00:52:59to him and endorsed him over the years.

00:53:02And all those people who had similarly claimed to be superior people who knew God's purposes and were themselves unusually

00:53:12significant.

00:53:13But yet they could not discern the character of the man standing right next to them on the stage.

00:53:19And that was the evidence for me, along with many other things, that my neo-charismatic leaders did not possess

00:53:31superior wisdom.

00:53:33They weren't superior people.

00:53:35And they didn't have an unusually significant calling or purpose.

00:53:38And then from that time, I was able to unravel some of that indoctrination in my own life and come

00:53:48to a point of, and I'm on a journey as well, like everybody,

00:53:52but more be able to radically accept or just accept my own human limitations and my own ordinariness.

00:54:03And even learn to embrace and enjoy the experience of being a very ordinary person in a world in which

00:54:15I do not, I'm not superior to everyone else.

00:54:19Even the communities I go to or I'm a part of are not superior to other people.

00:54:24And just a little caveat, I know that some communities can be more harmful than others, but I'm really talking

00:54:32about more of a superior mindset.

00:54:36And, you know, I realized I don't have an unusually significant calling.

00:54:41And I was able to put those prophecies to rest and just realize, you know what?

00:54:45I don't think there's any truth to those things at all.

00:54:49And I can rest now knowing that I don't have to try to find out one day or live in

00:54:55the expectation that one day I'm going to be super important and I'll be on a stage just like all

00:55:01these other people.

00:55:02And it really has brought a lot of peace to my heart over the years, even though, like I said,

00:55:07it's always a process and I'm still unraveling these things.

00:55:10And it's been very, very difficult to unravel that indoctrination in my own mind, because even after leaving the neo

00:55:20-charismatic movement, I really thought I was a special person for a long time.

00:55:25And I even thought, oh, now my special mission will be exposing the neo-charismatic movement.

00:55:32I mean, that's, you know, that's how weird it can get.

00:55:35But, you know, I'm at a point right now where I've done a lot of work, and it has been

00:55:40a lot of work, and it's been a lot of pain, a lot of trauma.

00:55:45But there's hope at the end of it.

00:55:48And I'm living in a lot of that hope and peace at the moment.

00:55:53I can sympathize with every single thing that you have said.

00:55:56I had one minister, I don't know if it was a prophetic thing or if he just said it because

00:56:02he was shooting the breeze, but he told me that I would one day become a minister.

00:56:06And when you're younger and somebody says something like this, it does have meaning, whether they meant it or not.

00:56:12I felt it, but then when I got older, this isn't what I want to do.

00:56:16I don't want to become a minister.

00:56:17I want to be that ordinary person.

00:56:20And even this thing that I do, I'm out of my element, but the reason why I never, ever really

00:56:27talk about myself and go too far with my journey, I don't want people to look at me like I'm

00:56:32something special because I'm not.

00:56:34I'm just John.

00:56:35I'm just the guy that's letting you share your story, and I'm very glad that you did.

00:56:39I'm actually hoping that you'll come back and do more because I feel like there's more to your story and

00:56:44people would really want to hear it.

00:56:46So much more, John.

00:56:47So much more.

00:56:49But, hey, if they clap loud enough in the YouTube responses, maybe I'll come back for an encore.

00:56:56Yeah, we'd absolutely love to have you back.

00:56:58Could you give some advice for people who are trapped in this type of thing?

00:57:03Just one.

00:57:03If you suspect you're in a harmful community, I would advise you just to take as long a break as

00:57:10you feel comfortable with.

00:57:12And that might be one prayer meeting or it might be leaving it forever.

00:57:16But just whatever you're comfortable with, just take a break.

00:57:18Just take one little break and then set aside some time to do something you can enjoy without any guilt

00:57:23or shame.

00:57:24Like, go for a hike, go to a beautiful place, listen to a favorite album, go to a restaurant, and

00:57:32just to get yourself out of the mindset for as long as you're comfortable with.

00:57:37And that's different for everybody.

00:57:39If you're already out of a harmful community, there's a book I read that was very helpful to me.

00:57:44It's Alan Jacobs' book called How to Think.

00:57:47It's just a very, very short primer on the thought processes that lead people to actually discover what is true

00:57:55versus the thought processes that lead people into thinking things that are not true.

00:58:01And Alan Jacobs is an Anglican and an English professor.

00:58:06And if you're a Christian coming out of these groups, or even if you're not a Christian, it's not written

00:58:10as a Christian book, but it's a very helpful book.

00:58:13And then I'd like to just give a shout out.

00:58:16If you're in the Denver metro area, a couple that helped me are Pat and Heidi Knapp.

00:58:23And they run a life coaching and counseling, I don't want to say ministry because it's not a ministry, but

00:58:34organization called Becoming Free.

00:58:36And you can go to becomingfree.org.

00:58:38And Pat is a PhD who got his PhD in cult studies.

00:58:44He's written books on it.

00:58:46And Pat and Heidi run support groups, and they are trained to help people come out of these cult situations.

00:58:55They've helped all kinds of people from all kinds of situations.

00:58:59And that has been something that really, really helped me heal.

00:59:04And they're vetted by other people.

00:59:06You can go on their website and check them out.

00:59:07You're not going to get yourself into another bad situation by going to Pat and Heidi Knapp.

00:59:13So you can check that out.

00:59:14I just wanted to shout them out because they were so helpful to me.

00:59:17Awesome.

00:59:18Glad you did.

00:59:18Thank you so much for doing this.

00:59:20John, thank you so much for having me on.

00:59:21It's been a pleasure.

00:59:22If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out

00:59:26on the web.

00:59:26You can find us at william-branham.org.

00:59:29For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

00:59:34the NAR.

00:59:35Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:13Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:00:43Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

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