- 12 hours ago
John and Bob examine how prophetic vindication develops when unusual events are interpreted as supernatural signs and then used to establish the authority of the person interpreting them. They discuss the relationship between leaders and audiences, self-vindicating prophetic systems, the pressure to conform, and Bob's experiences at Kansas City Fellowship as prophetic stories involving Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and Paul Cain became increasingly central to the movement.
They trace similar patterns through Pentecostalism, the healing revivals, the charismatic movement, and IHOPKC, asking what happens when ordinary coincidences, dreams, personal impressions, and everyday experiences begin to be treated as divine confirmation. John and Bob also explore the danger of devaluing ordinary Christian life, the power behind the phrase "God told me," and why another movement built around supernatural validation may eventually follow the same historical pattern.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:45 How Unusual Events Become Vindication
07:20 Prophetic Stories and Authority at Kansas City Fellowship
10:03 Building a Ministry Through Self-Vindication
13:46 Pentecostalism, Azusa Street, and Speaking in Tongues
16:32 Social Pressure and the Full Gospel Experience
21:11 From Tongues to Healing as Evidence
23:40 The Need to Be Right vs. the Need to Be Popular
29:09 Pentecostal Schisms and Spiritual Authority
31:00 When Ordinary Events Become Supernatural Signs
33:09 Reinterpreting Prophecy as Vindication
38:39 The Cost of Devaluing Ordinary Christian Life
42:14 Spiritual Experiences Inside and Outside the Church
48:45 Who Owns the Revival?
51:22 How “God Told Me” Can Become Manipulation
53:14 When Everyone Becomes a Prophetic Voice
56:22 Why Another Movement Will Come
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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They trace similar patterns through Pentecostalism, the healing revivals, the charismatic movement, and IHOPKC, asking what happens when ordinary coincidences, dreams, personal impressions, and everyday experiences begin to be treated as divine confirmation. John and Bob also explore the danger of devaluing ordinary Christian life, the power behind the phrase "God told me," and why another movement built around supernatural validation may eventually follow the same historical pattern.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:45 How Unusual Events Become Vindication
07:20 Prophetic Stories and Authority at Kansas City Fellowship
10:03 Building a Ministry Through Self-Vindication
13:46 Pentecostalism, Azusa Street, and Speaking in Tongues
16:32 Social Pressure and the Full Gospel Experience
21:11 From Tongues to Healing as Evidence
23:40 The Need to Be Right vs. the Need to Be Popular
29:09 Pentecostal Schisms and Spiritual Authority
31:00 When Ordinary Events Become Supernatural Signs
33:09 Reinterpreting Prophecy as Vindication
38:39 The Cost of Devaluing Ordinary Christian Life
42:14 Spiritual Experiences Inside and Outside the Church
48:45 Who Owns the Revival?
51:22 How “God Told Me” Can Become Manipulation
53:14 When Everyone Becomes a Prophetic Voice
56:22 Why Another Movement Will Come
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder
00:46of the Kansas City Fellowship and the author of three books, the latest is Some Said They
00:50Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence of Mike Pickle, The Kansas City Prophets, and
00:54The International House of Prayer.
00:56Bob, I was thinking of you just the other day, maybe two days ago, I was doing a podcast,
01:02and we were deep into the middle of it, and we were talking about some subject that's
01:08unrelated to what we're going to be talking about today, but the thought came to me about
01:13vindication.
01:14Anytime I'm talking to any of these groups, whether it's the group I came from, IHOPKC,
01:20any of these people that, these groups that have prophetic ministries, they'll say, well,
01:25he's a vindicated prophet.
01:27And you start to ask them, well, what does that mean?
01:30And they'll usually point to things that the man said that vindicated him.
01:36And I'm like, well, that's circular reasoning.
01:38I could say I'm a vindicated prophet, and if you ask me how to vindicate myself, I say,
01:43because I said so.
01:45You know, but it actually goes deeper than that.
01:48You and I have had conversations multiple times about how it's not just the guy behind
01:53the pulpit.
01:54You also have an audience, and they feed on each other.
01:57And so there's this cycle.
01:59And basically, I want to talk today about vindication, what that actually means, how does it work,
02:05how does it originate, how does a person just suddenly step up and say, okay, the entire
02:10world is about to end.
02:11We're all going to gather into the stadium, and Joel's army will come forth, believe me,
02:17and abandon all of your other preconceived notions of how the world will end.
02:22You know, at our age, I think one of the things we can probably both testify to is we've seen
02:30a lot of stuff said and a lot of stuff forgotten, meaning that I always find the vindication thing
02:39interesting, why do we need to be vindicated in the first place?
02:43Like, what's the point of vindication here?
02:46Is this to put another merit badge on our prophetic sash here?
02:52You know what I mean?
02:53It's like, I was vindicated in 1957.
02:57I was vindicated in 2026.
03:00You know, the problem is, you know, where I'm at at this particular point is the level of
03:09rightness or accuracy or authenticity of prophetic stuff these days, you know, is so small.
03:22I mean, in some ways, I kind of understand the whole vindication thing, because like when
03:27you're about 99% wrong, you know, when you get one right, it's like, oh, I got one, you
03:34know, it's like catching fish.
03:36I got one, you know?
03:37And so, I think for a lot of these guys that are trying to build a ministry and build a
03:45reputation, you know, I see why they want to be vindicated, because obviously it establishes
03:52their credibility.
03:53The problem is, is that you get to a certain point, and this is where I love Ecclesiastes.
04:02I can't remember the actual verse, but it's basically where there's many dreams and visions,
04:08there's emptiness.
04:09Rather fear God.
04:10Why is having many dreams and visions emptiness?
04:15You know, that's, you know, a lot of people will read that, but my question always is,
04:19well, why?
04:20Like, why?
04:21Right?
04:21And I think a lot of it has to do with what we know about economics, right?
04:26When you have a bunch of something, it's not valuable.
04:30It loses its value, and I, if there's a heartache, to be honest with you, that I have, because,
04:38you know, in full disclosure, I love the prophetic.
04:41I think the prophetic has so much to offer the Christian community.
04:48My heartache is the fact that it's been so badly abused and so misused that it's lost
04:57its value in a way, right?
05:00It's just like we've reached this space where there's just such a volume level of it.
05:06People are glazed over now.
05:08Before I even began my podcast, things were just taken too far.
05:12I don't know if you caught on to this or not.
05:14Maybe you might not have been in the movement when it got this destructive, but as these movements
05:19become more and more destructive, should anything unusual or extraordinary happen,
05:26it's always a sign.
05:28There's always some religious doctrine that ties back to it.
05:32And so, as I was having this conversation the other day, I was thinking through just that.
05:37Something unusual happens, and it always turns out in favor of the person who's behind the
05:42pulpit who's got control of the crowd.
05:44Why is that?
05:45So, I started thinking just simply through the mechanics of it.
05:49You have the phenomenon.
05:51Something happened.
05:52Who knows what it was?
05:53In our group that we escaped, there was these weird things with clouds in the sky or lights
05:58and the camera photographs, just weird stuff that's unusual, but you can go right down
06:04the line to almost every group.
06:05There's something unusual happens, and what happens is after that, the people are like,
06:11huh, well, that's unusual.
06:12And then the guy or girl behind the pulpit says, well, that happened because, and they
06:17give the interpretation of what the sign means.
06:20Because of those two things, and I'll carry on with where that heads, because the person always
06:26has an answer for the unexplainable, they always look to this person for the answer to the
06:31unexplainable, which creates this cycle that never ends.
06:35Because after he gives the answer to what happened, the people start to use that unexplainable
06:42thing actually as validation of the ministry of the man who just gave you the interpretation
06:47of it.
06:48So, they're saying, well, this is a vindicated prophet because the sign happened.
06:52Why do they say this?
06:53It's because the guy told them what the vindication is.
06:56When that loop begins, what happens is it spins off into authority.
07:00If you can get people to believe that you have the answer to all questionable or extraordinary
07:07things, and that those same extraordinary things are vindicating you as a prophet, authority,
07:14an apostle, whatever, you can take control over the heads of the people.
07:19I think I wrote a little bit about this in my book because, and again, this is my perspective.
07:26You know, other people may have a different one, but I watched Mike do this.
07:32And when it was the 1980s and I was in my 20s, all of our peers were gathered at Kansas
07:39City
07:40Fellowship.
07:40And Mike would get up there and he would tell these Bob Jones stories.
07:45And then it was Paul Kane stories, right?
07:48And the prophecies were, and the way that he would use them were a vindication of everything
07:58that I'm saying as Mike Bickle and everything that Bob Jones or Paul Kane is saying, right?
08:03In other words, you know, we're being vindicated and you need to listen to us and whatever.
08:09And what I saw was tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people flocking to Kansas City
08:16because of the fact that these stories, these prophetic stories were vindicating Mike.
08:23And we were all excited about it, right?
08:26It was, it's terribly exciting.
08:28I mean, it's an adrenaline rush.
08:30You know what I mean?
08:31It's exciting.
08:32It's exciting to be, to go to work.
08:35It was exciting to work, go to work every day for me because it was like, oh my God,
08:39I'm a part of an end time movement.
08:41You know what I mean?
08:42I, you know, as a young guy going into the ministry, I wanted to serve God.
08:49Like I wanted to be a faithful servant and oh my gosh, I'm in the heart and soul of it.
08:55I'm in the epicenter of it, right?
08:57I mean, Kansas City, look it, people are coming from all over the world.
09:01And it's, and what I realized over the course of time, it was all based on these prophetic words.
09:08Like the whole aura of Kansas City was really because of these three prophetic guys and their words, right?
09:19Which is, was so interesting because when we started the church, it was about Mike preaching the gospel
09:25and, and, and being a Bible teacher, right?
09:30And focusing on prayer somehow, you know, within four months of the church starting, Bob Jones had come in
09:38and completely taken the whole direction of the church away from this focus on Bible teaching, right?
09:46Because we were evangelicals, right?
09:48You know, exegesis, we're going to open up the word of God and we're going to, you know, we're going
09:53to study it.
09:54Two, all this prophetic stuff, right?
09:58All this sensationalism.
10:00I realized over the course of time, as I got older and began to understand how guys like Mike work,
10:08I began to realize how manipulative it all was because what he was basically doing,
10:15and I don't know if he was aware of it, like he was cognitive of it, or it was just
10:21his nature.
10:21But the whole thing, when you, when I sort of stripped away at all, it came down to this basic
10:29thing.
10:29What's Mike doing?
10:31He's using these three prophetic eyes to vindicate his ministry and to establish the fact he was special, right?
10:44He wasn't like all the other guys in the ministry.
10:47He had a special calling.
10:50It was an elite calling, right?
10:52And every prophetic thing, you know, every instance just kept building this pyramid, right?
10:59Another layer, another layer of how special it was, all vindicating how special it was.
11:05And the transaction was, look how special I am.
11:10I know you want to be special too.
11:12And of course we all do, right?
11:14Everybody that's sitting in a chair that's not in the ministry, they either want their tithes and offerings to go
11:20to serve God,
11:21or they want to, you know, be involved in something.
11:23They're not any different than the guys in the ministry.
11:25They all want to feel special, right?
11:28They all want to feel like they're a part of something, right?
11:30And I started realizing how vulnerable we all are.
11:34It's like, oh my gosh, we're all out here desperately wanting to please God.
11:40We're all out here desperately wanting to be bond servants and serve in whatever capacity we can.
11:47And oh my gosh, this is like drugs.
11:49It's like Mike and Bob Jones were like pushers, like drug pushers.
11:53And instead of it being heroin, it was prophetic words that every few weeks were like another jolt, you know,
12:04another, you know,
12:05well, we could be more or less extreme and called vitamin B.
12:09It was a vitamin B injection, right?
12:12You know how they do that in the health clinic.
12:15We got a vitamin.
12:15Suddenly we have all this energy and we're special and we're going to take the world, right?
12:21And we're being vindicated.
12:23And I realized, oh my gosh, this is crazy.
12:27Like this is a little scary here in a sense.
12:29Like who's checking us?
12:33You know what I mean?
12:34It's like we're in our own space.
12:36And here's what, see, who's confirming all of this?
12:39We are.
12:39Like we're confirming our own stuff.
12:42We're vindicating ourselves.
12:45And you see what I mean?
12:46It's like it's incestuous.
12:48And then I started realizing, oh my gosh, this is how people go off the edge.
12:53This is how people go over the cliff because they lose their bearing.
12:56It's like you become so full of yourself and you're in your own little bubble and you're self-vindicating, right?
13:03Because everybody wants to be, right?
13:05Because what did all the guys that vindicated get?
13:08So you have the guys that need to be vindicated and the vindicators.
13:11What did the vindicators get?
13:13Lots of money.
13:14Because they got put in the pulpit as guest speakers.
13:19They got big offerings, like $70,000 in the case of IHOP, to vindicate the guys who were in charge.
13:28It's like pay for your own praise.
13:31Is that a thing?
13:32Pay the praise?
13:34I think so.
13:35So I'm going to step on a few heads here.
13:37Uh-oh.
13:38Not purposefully so, but this is actual history.
13:40Oh, like we're so uncontroversial, John.
13:43I can't believe you're going to do that.
13:46I'm going to take you back to one of the earliest splits in Pentecostalism.
13:50And it's over.
13:52I've looked at it in many ways.
13:53A lot of people look at this as a historical theological thing.
13:57But I actually look at it more related to this podcast than I do the history.
14:02Okay.
14:02Picture everything that you and I have said in the past entire series that we've done together.
14:08Let's talk about the personality types.
14:11Which personality types become a leader?
14:13How they usually act?
14:15How they usually behave?
14:16It's not that it's a bad thing.
14:18Like you said, even presidents share the same personality types.
14:22That's all accurate if you study psychology.
14:24Now, picture this.
14:27You had this event happen.
14:29It was a revival at Azusa Street.
14:31Everybody starts breaking out and speaking in tongues.
14:35And people were coming to get this gift of speaking in tongues.
14:39You had among the people who were coming to that revival, those who wanted to learn to speak in tongues.
14:46And then you had evangelists going out teaching other people how to speak in tongues.
14:51So, as these evangelists would go out, they would enter into a church where the minister may not have yet
14:57spoken tongues.
14:59What if it was a minister that had that same personality type?
15:03Well, wait a minute.
15:03I'm the leader here.
15:04These people have something I don't have.
15:07And eventually what happened is they started to claim out of this movement that came out of Azusa Street that
15:15the evidence that you have the Holy Spirit is whether or not you can do this thing.
15:20Which is good for the people that can do this thing.
15:23Now, take the other side.
15:24What about the Holy Ghost-filled minister who knows that he's walking with God, knows that he has the Holy
15:30Spirit with him?
15:31Is he going to sit back and say, wait a minute, I agree with you.
15:34You have the Holy Spirit and I don't.
15:37So, there came to be this schism and ultimately it played a good part into the role of the creation
15:44of the Assemblies of God.
15:45There were ministers who said, no, that's not the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit.
15:49Some of us also have the Holy Spirit.
15:51So, with this, that division, if you carry that theme forward, whenever there's an event that happens that's unusual, the
16:02thing that happened at Azusa Street, that's unusual.
16:05Well, you had people who were interpreting what this means saying, well, that means we have the Holy Spirit.
16:09You don't have it yet.
16:10We'll come give it to you.
16:12And it gets to be this self-fulfilling authority on doctrine and scripture.
16:20If you can do something that the other guy can't, well, you must have something he doesn't because you're interpreting
16:26what that initial phenomenon means.
16:29You're triggering me.
16:32I just – I'm having flashbacks here.
16:35So, as you know, we've talked about this.
16:38I'm empathic.
16:39I feel people's pain.
16:42And whatever, right?
16:44So, imagine an empathic person going to a full gospel businessman's event with business guys who are all being told,
16:55unless they speak in tongues, they don't have the Holy Spirit.
16:59And watching very dignified executives who are put in this really awkward situation with a whole bunch of guys staring
17:12at him while they're sitting in a chair and guys are praying over him and they're trying to get him
17:17to speak in tongues, right?
17:19And the confusion in these poor man's hands going, nothing's happening to me.
17:26Like, I'm not feeling anything.
17:28But if I don't do something, I'm never going to get out of this chair because the more time I
17:35take not speaking in tongues, the more extreme this is getting, the more intense it's getting, and the harder they're
17:43all trying to make me do this.
17:45And I watch guys either humiliate themselves, right, to not just get it over with, and just make up something,
17:56right?
17:57Which, of course, everybody's going, yes, brother.
18:00And then, you know, they're calling me on the phone afterwards going, that was just complete fake.
18:07Like, I just wanted to get out of there.
18:09You see what I mean?
18:10It's like, and yet, there's a whole bunch of guys that are bragging to everyone else that we got brother
18:15so-and-so to speak in tongues.
18:19Vindicating them, right, this whole thing.
18:22And you're just going, oh, this is bad.
18:23I couldn't go to those things.
18:25I mean, it got so bad.
18:27Like, I could not be there and feel the anxiety and the shame and the embarrassment that all these very
18:37distinguished guys were going through in these high-pressure situations.
18:42So, I can imagine the zoo's a street, right?
18:44Because here's the problem.
18:46Nobody, when you're in a group situation, there's very few people that have the psychological strength to say, no, I'm
18:54not going to be like all the rest of you, right?
18:56That's why we've talked about this before, why most innovation comes from people that are weird and rebellious, that break
19:04the status quo, the popular point of view.
19:10They're anti, right?
19:12And so, in these group situations, this is where I find vindictiveness, vindication, such a trap, is because what's behind
19:27it, right?
19:29Everybody's wanting to be accepted.
19:31So, people will lie.
19:33People will manipulate.
19:34People will acquiesce, right?
19:37They'll just go, oh, yes, of course that happened, right?
19:39You know, can you imagine, you know, like, I was in situations with Mike where he'd turn to me and
19:47go, right, Bob?
19:50And, like, I didn't know what to do if I was of a different mindset than him.
19:56I would just change the subject.
19:59You know what I mean?
20:00It's like, how do I extradite myself from this very awkward situation right now, you know?
20:06So, yes, I can see why the Azusa Street and a lot of the Pentecostal, especially, I mean, again, let's
20:14unpack the social dynamics.
20:17A lot of this was happening primarily in small rural communities, right?
20:22You know, it did happen in some major cities, but a lot of it was happening in smaller, you know,
20:29a lot of the full gospel stuff that I went to was stuff outside of St. Louis or whatever, right?
20:35In small communities where everybody knows everybody.
20:38They even know you if you don't go to their church.
20:41Like, these are small communities.
20:43And so to be ostracized, right, to be the only one not speaking in tongues, the only one that doesn't,
20:53you know, believe in progress.
20:55In the big urban areas, it's a little easier just to disappear, like, just not come back to church.
21:00Nobody misses you, right?
21:02In a rural area, everybody knows, brother.
21:05So it's not showing up at church.
21:08So, yeah, there's a lot of pressure there.
21:10So I am also an empath, and I've thought about this in many ways.
21:14It's funny because I've studied quite a bit of histories of Pentecostalism and how it morphed into latter rain, healing,
21:21revival, et cetera.
21:22Not many people talk about this because it is just a bit offensive to those people who are of the
21:29mindset, you know.
21:30So I know I'm stepping on heads, and I'm not meaning to.
21:32I'm trying to delicately walk through history.
21:35But now let's carry it forward to the healing revivals.
21:38You had those people who believed that speaking in tongues was the initial evidence.
21:42If you could speak in tongues, you had the Holy Spirit.
21:44If you couldn't, we need to give this to you so you can get the Holy Spirit.
21:48You had the people who broke away and said, no, no, no, I have the Holy Spirit.
21:52What in the world are you talking about?
21:54I know my walk with God.
21:55So they kind of split, and this was a major schism.
21:59Well, what happens when you get bad apples in that part of the schism who also have the same personality
22:05type?
22:06Well, you guys are wrong.
22:08I have something you don't have.
22:10You must be lying.
22:11I must have the Holy Spirit, and you must not.
22:13And so this idea began to develop that healing was the evidence, and they reframed it, rephrased it.
22:22Basically, what they said was that the healing was in the atonement, and if you had the atonement, if you
22:28were saved, you could be healed.
22:30And if you carry that out to its logical conclusion, if you're not healed, well, your salvation must be questionable.
22:38And I've read studies on this.
22:40You can read Christ the Healer, et cetera.
22:42There are different books written by these guys, but they try to bundle healing and salvation.
22:47And so the person who's really suffering, the person who isn't getting healed, maybe you have cancer, maybe you're crippled,
22:55whatever it is, will you actually start to question, well, am I saved?
22:59Do I have the Holy Spirit?
23:01What have I done to offend God?
23:03And you had leaders who were in that movement who may have had some condition, and yet they believed that
23:10they had the Holy Spirit they were preaching.
23:12So you were literally creating a schism that had a group of people that were trying to say that they
23:21were better than the ones who believed that the initial evidence was speaking in tongues, but also they were offending
23:28anybody who had some sort of an affliction.
23:32That, for me, turned into something that's really – I really struggle whenever I think back of what people must
23:39have suffered going through that.
23:40You know, to unpack the psychology of it, which is basically personalities.
23:46You could almost – I mean, I know there's more than two, but I'm just saying I could think of
23:51two types of people within the church world, those that need to be right and those that need to be
23:59popular, right?
24:00So your need to be right people tend to gravitate towards theology and academics and Bible schools and Bible college,
24:11right?
24:12In other words, they want to get their facts right.
24:14But a lot of the guys that – and especially this is true for the guys that are trying to
24:21build big churches and parachurch ministries – they want to be popular.
24:26And understanding that motivation is, to me, very critical and understanding why they do what they do, right?
24:38You know, if you're a tenured professor at a university, there's, you know, being right, you know, which is –
24:44it's funny.
24:45I mean, I have a couple professors in my family and, you know, it's like they said, well, we write
24:50books, but nobody reads them.
24:52We write books to our peers.
24:54Like, in that little world, it's all about debating, you know, who's right, but it's a very small little cloistered
25:02world, right?
25:03And then there's certain engineering-type personalities in the church world that will always argue with you about being right.
25:10But the vast majority of people just want to be liked and popular, and most of the guys in the
25:16ministry, right?
25:17So this is where, to me, where it gets, you know, to some of what you're talking about here, it's
25:23like it gets really twisted and distorted because there's an underlying motivation, right?
25:31So the minute something doesn't get you more people, the people that are popular tend to jettison it.
25:41And what you notice about people like that – and have you noticed this?
25:47Again, this is just me observing.
25:50Have you noticed how there's different groups who keep changing their identity?
25:57It's like whatever the – you know, because I've seen this, you know, they were a Toronto Blessing Church, right?
26:04Or they were a Vineyard Church, or then they were a Toronto Blessing Church.
26:07Well, then they were an IHOP, you know, they were IHOP, right?
26:11Like, they keep changing their name based on what?
26:15The latest hot trend within – or the latest fad within popular fad that's in the Christian world.
26:23And so suddenly they're that now, right?
26:27And it's kind of like – I mean, gosh, I hope I don't get in trouble with the ladies here,
26:32but it's kind of like ladies with their wardrobe, right?
26:35It's like, okay, which pair of clothes am I going to – what's the event and what clothes am I
26:39going to wear for it, right?
26:40And so I see a lot of leaders, especially in the church world, they just flock to the latest conferences,
26:48right, and put on those clothes, right?
26:51I'm this now, right?
26:53And I always ask myself, well, why?
26:55And it's like, well, because underneath, at the core of who they are, they want to be liked.
27:00They want to be popular, right?
27:03They want to be a lot – right?
27:04And so they end up taking on whatever that is and wearing those clothes.
27:09One of the jokes that we see about the church world is how everybody dresses like the pastor and his
27:19wife.
27:20Have you ever noticed that?
27:22You go into churches and there's a culture, right?
27:27It's like I was at a church a few weeks ago and everybody's got a beard.
27:30And I'm like, why is everybody got a beard here?
27:33And sure enough, the pastor hops up there and he's got a beard, you know?
27:36It's like, oh, my gosh, right?
27:39They're all wearing, you know, blue jeans and sort of flannel shirt, you know, or, you know, there's new –
27:44wow, okay.
27:46You know, then you got the suit-wearing churches, right?
27:49It's like we all just – humans just do not like to be independent.
27:54I mean, that's really – and when it gets into the church world, it hits up vulnerability.
28:01It really is.
28:02And the guys that lead it, they know how to play that card.
28:07They're very good at reading people.
28:10Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
28:18reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
28:23You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:31On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
28:39John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
28:45You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
28:51If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
28:58top.
28:58And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
29:04watching.
29:05On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:10So I'm going to step on a few more heads.
29:12Wow.
29:13Is this step on head day?
29:17Okay.
29:18You're just being bold today.
29:21Well, basically, I'm just walking through history because I will talk about the history that a lot of the people
29:27are just a little bit skeptical of,
29:30and a lot of other people don't really want to talk about, yet they kind of know it.
29:35Right.
29:35There are many different schisms that happen, and it happened over things like I just described.
29:41Pentecostalism has split over various reasons, and it always comes down to two different groups of people thinking they're right
29:47and the other one is wrong.
29:49That's how any split happens.
29:50That's nothing unusual.
29:52Yeah, because there's 40,000 Christian denominations, to your point.
29:57Like, are you kidding me?
30:01Exactly.
30:02Why in heaven's name do we need 40,000 different versions of Christianity?
30:07This is insane to your point.
30:10The reason why I'm examining Pentecostalism is because of this one fact, and it does separate Pentecostalism from some of
30:19the other denominations of the 40,000.
30:23Within Pentecostalism, you had exactly what I'm talking about.
30:25You had this extraordinary thing happen.
30:28You had the interpretation of that.
30:30That turned into vindication.
30:32That turned into an authority of some sort.
30:35I know that the early Pentecostals or the true Pentecostals will say, no, no, no, we don't agree in that
30:40type of authority.
30:40But remember, those who were at Azusa Street had higher superiority in transference of this gift than anybody who wasn't
30:48there.
30:49So you did have it.
30:50It was there.
30:51Well, so we walked through Pentecostalism when it was birthed.
30:55We walked through the healing revival.
30:57Now come into the charismatic movement.
30:59In the charismatic movement, there's this weird phenomenon that has happened that changed it from the other versions of this.
31:08And that is this fact.
31:11After you get conditioned to interpret signs like this, something extraordinary happens, we look to a person, he's got the
31:19answer why it happened.
31:21Well, eventually, over time, now ordinary events turn into supernatural signs that can be used for vindication because you've grown
31:30so accustomed to doing this method.
31:31I remember going to churches where it didn't matter what happened.
31:35If something just slightly unusual happened, even if it was ordinary, you would hear the minister talking about it.
31:42Remember, when we were at that event and X and Y and Z happened.
31:46Well, once ordinary events start to function as a sign, now the spiritual impartation, the interpretation of those events, that
31:58starts to increase in frequency because now you've got a lot of events that could be supernatural.
32:06Well, to understand that fully, you have to experience it.
32:11And charismatic movement basically introduced the idea that, yes, we're seeing these things happen more and more frequently.
32:18We need to feel it.
32:19We need to be part of it.
32:21We need to actively participate in it.
32:23And that's where it gets a little bit sketchy because how did they determine which experiences were they supposed to
32:33notice and which ones were they not?
32:35That's really the biggest question.
32:37A person who's never been in this at all, they've lived as a Christian in some mainstream church that doesn't
32:44have any of this type of experience.
32:46When they visit one of these churches, everybody's talking about this thing that happened that to them is just an
32:52ordinary event.
32:53And they're thinking, I don't know why they really care so much about that.
32:57I was at the same ballgame and I saw the same hitter do the same thing.
33:01So what happens is once it becomes commonplace, then people start to look for things that aren't really there.
33:08For people that are interested in the KCF IHOP history, one of the interesting dynamics for me is I went
33:18back and talked to the people that were at South County Christian Fellowship when Augustine Acola showed up there in
33:261982.
33:29And, you know, Mike met with them and he prophesied.
33:33There's not a single person that was in that meeting, not a single one.
33:38Who thought, one, it was about Mike having a special calling that elevated him above everyone else.
33:48Nor did anyone think Mike was going to leave.
33:52Nor did, right?
33:53I mean, that could go on.
33:54There's a whole list of things here.
33:56That all then became later, when Mike presented the story, was vindication of what he was doing.
34:06See what I mean?
34:07It's like, that always was kind of like, wow, that's kind of weird.
34:11Like, Mike, you've always used this event, this situation, as your vindication for leaving St. Louis and going to Kansas
34:20City and starting Kansas City Fellowship, except for nobody else in the meeting thought that.
34:25Like, no one.
34:26Only you.
34:28That's kind of odd.
34:30So, one of the things that's bothered me, I mean, you know how we call a red flag, right?
34:36I've had this red flag for years.
34:38And the red flag I have, the huge red flag for the charismatic Pentecostal world is self-indication.
34:48It's like, where's, like, and I even remember telling Mike this.
34:53It's like, I don't need another guy here who's got a hidden agenda coming to Kansas City and telling us
34:59how awesome we are and how blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
35:03It's like, because they all want something.
35:05What I'm interested in is somebody who's not a part of our world.
35:10It might not even be a Christian who looks at what we're doing here and goes, oh, my gosh, this
35:16is so authentically something that I want to find out more.
35:23Like, where's that?
35:26But, right, it's like we have this, you know, I call it self-vindicating but self-perpetuating.
35:33So, it's like we're our own engine.
35:35Like, we're feeding ourselves here.
35:37Like, the whole object of the exercise, I thought, based on reading Jesus, was who we are would, you know,
35:48would impact those outside of our community.
35:52Hence, Jesus goes to a well in a public square and has a conversation with somebody that, in his community,
36:00is their enemy, their religious enemy.
36:03And he has this conversation with her.
36:05She's supposed to hate him.
36:07He's supposed to hate her.
36:09In fact, everybody else in his community won't even walk through her neighborhood.
36:14They'll go across the River Jordan and go up north on that side and then over to get to Galilee
36:21because they will not touch the Samaritan soil.
36:25And here's Jesus having a conversation with her, right?
36:28Here's Jesus going and healing the servant of a Roman centurion?
36:34Like, the Nazi Gestapo guy?
36:37Wow, right?
36:38See, this is, and this is, now you're getting into the core of kind of the longings in my own
36:44soul and why I just get so frustrated sometimes in the church world and the kind of gospel.
36:50Because it's like, to me, it's like, this stuff that we're supposed to be in possession of, these truths, this
36:58understanding, this power, this is supposed to be pouring out for others outside of our community.
37:05Like, we're so incestuous.
37:07You know what I mean?
37:08It's like we isolate ourselves in these self-affirming communities.
37:15Like, who are we impacting outside?
37:19And that's where I just get back to just, you know, with a lot of the people that I've worked
37:25with over the last couple of years that have been disillusioned with the, you know, because they were a part
37:29of the IHOP machine, right?
37:31The machine that was going to basically impact the world.
37:36And I've basically said, don't give up.
37:39Just be that in your own personal life.
37:42Like, you don't need Mike Bickle.
37:44You don't need prophecies to be like Jesus and love and care for orphans and widows and the poor and
37:53people in need.
37:54You can do that every day of your life.
37:56Go do it.
37:58Or do you need to be seen?
38:01You need to do it in a community where you're getting affirmation and you can, you know, tick, you know,
38:08have ticks on your belt, you know, a little thing.
38:10Oh, yes, I helped the poor person.
38:11Oh, isn't that brother so nice?
38:13Look at the ministry he has or she has, right?
38:16It's like, we just need all the time to be, you know, vindicated and praised and be seen.
38:25And it's like, I think we're going to be shocked one day when we get on the other side and
38:31we find out who Jesus really honors.
38:36And it's probably people we never heard of.
38:38In a roundabout way, you made it to where I was going to build up to this great climax.
38:43I seem to always do this with you, don't I?
38:45You do.
38:47Well, so I've transitioned through history and we've talked about how it has developed into what it has.
38:53And to speak to your point and to confirm your climax, which matched my climax, once these experiences become commonplace,
39:03there is this problem that exists.
39:06And this comes also, it ties into a conversation I just had with Channel Ross.
39:11In the Bible, there are extraordinary things happen.
39:16But your reading of extraordinary things compacted into a book or a letter, what about the average Christian that never
39:24had an extraordinary thing happen?
39:26Are they less valuable?
39:28Well, the movement started to anticipate extraordinary things happening.
39:33And people started saying that you will feel it.
39:36You can do the works and you can feel it.
39:39You can do the stuff.
39:40You can feel it.
39:41But, well, they conditioned the people to believe that they needed to experience the extraordinary.
39:47And so what happened is the movement started looking everywhere for the extraordinary.
39:52What happens whenever you're thinking about a person and coincidentally that person calls you?
39:57Oh, well, that's a sign.
39:58God told you to call me.
40:00You know what I mean?
40:02People dreaming is something that is a big thing.
40:06And not many people understand the psychology of how a dream works.
40:09A dream is your brain processing what you're thinking about, what has happened.
40:14You could be so intently thinking about a person who's suffering and struggling because you're an empath that you start
40:20dreaming about it.
40:21Whoa, my gosh.
40:22God just gave me a dream.
40:24And then if the person just happens to do something that even slightly resembles what happened in your dream, I
40:31saw a prophetic dream about you, my brother.
40:33And it said that you need to do X, Y, and Z.
40:36And it might be so far off in left field that it doesn't even match the situation.
40:41Or what – and this one really bothers me.
40:45Preachers will be preaching, and they just may casually mention something that just happens to be relevant to an audience
40:51member, somebody who's in the congregation.
40:54Well, after church, that member of the congregation will come up to them and say, hey, man, you really spoke
41:00to me.
41:00Did you know that I was doing X, Y, and Z?
41:03Well, the preacher doesn't know that he's talking about this person.
41:05The person doesn't know that the preacher's not talking about them.
41:08But then they make that connection.
41:10And because of the way that the system has been developed, they may not even be doing it as a
41:17manipulation tool, but the preacher will connect to the person thinking, well, God is using me to speak to you,
41:23my brother and my sister.
41:24So you start to see supernatural things where they aren't there.
41:28And the question that Cheno asked, which is a good question, what about the prophetic that says you're going to
41:35live an uneventful life, you're never going to have anything extraordinary happen to you, you're just going to live, you
41:42may be sick for the rest of your life, and you're going to die and go to heaven.
41:47That's also an experience, but they tell you that your experience must be something extraordinary.
41:52So the point I'm building up to, which you kind of beat me to it, is we were so conditioned
41:59to look for something that is so extraordinary in every place that we began to see things that weren't there,
42:05and we started to devalue our ordinary lives.
42:10And for me, that's really robbing people of your existence.
42:14I don't know that I've ever shared this publicly, but I've had a vantage point that maybe most people haven't
42:25had, but I have this, for people that don't know, it's not really, I don't do it much anymore, but
42:33I've had this consulting, counseling organization called Joseph Company Global.
42:40I've been doing it for 40 years, so I move between the business world, the athletic world, sports, arts and
42:51entertainment, geopolitical, religious, all of it, right?
42:57So I'm in all these different sectors talking to high-profile people, very gifted people in all these different sectors,
43:07right?
43:08Some Christian, some not.
43:11What's fascinating to me is, and I'm going to say this and get me in trouble, I can see no
43:18difference or very little difference between the world outside the church and the world inside the church.
43:24And especially when it comes to what we'll call, what we define in the church world as a spiritual experience,
43:35a prophetic word, whatever.
43:38I can't go to, you know, because of professional reasons, I can't unpack these stories, but I will say this.
43:47I can tell you that some of the most innovative, most influential people that are not in the church world
43:55are who they are because of spiritual experiences they've had.
44:01Ideas that literally came out of nowhere, like they weren't thinking about it, weren't studying it, literally dropped in.
44:09I know of situations where people have had dreams.
44:12My whole point here is this.
44:16We think because we go to a church and we are in the church world that somehow we're in a
44:22special space, that we're special to God.
44:25But what I've realized is God is the God of creation and he's at work as much outside the church
44:34world as he is inside the church world.
44:37And because of the fact that the people outside the church world don't have this need to tell everybody, I
44:43got a word from God, but they will all tell you, God talked to me.
44:49Or if it wasn't him, it was something spiritual.
44:52I had an experience and I'm talking about, I've had hundreds of these stories of people who are not in
44:59the ministry.
45:00So this is, and the reason I'm sharing this is so you guys have some frame of reference of why
45:07I'm, I have the perspective that I do and why when I get into the church world and I hear,
45:14I see all the preachers suddenly make a big deal about all this.
45:19I'm going, you're not special.
45:22You're not different.
45:24You're not unique.
45:26You're not better.
45:27Like, I mean, and here's why.
45:28I mean, some of the people that have had these experiences are running some of the most impactful companies and
45:37organizations and are in some of the most influential places that you guys can't even touch.
45:44So it's kind of like, I know this is, it's kind of like, what was that movie with, I think
45:50it was Art, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito is like, you have this giant and this little midget guy.
45:56Well, we're the midget, the church world is the midgets.
45:59I'm just telling you, when it comes to spiritual experiences, you're the midgets.
46:05What you think is a big deal in terms of, right?
46:09Now, I don't want to demean the fact that those, you know, that they can help an individual.
46:15What I'm talking about, men and women who have had experiences that have changed nations in history that the church
46:22world can't touch.
46:24So I have this, that's why I wrote the book in the company of Joseph.
46:28I was trying to get people to understand that what God is doing and who he works through is way
46:35bigger, way broader, and way more diverse than you can even possibly imagine.
46:43You think it's, you think God needs to work with Christians?
46:47In other words, you think he's limited to only people that believe in him?
46:53If he's really the creator of the universe, right?
46:57Do you think he's limited to our little puny clubs?
47:01No, he is at work in all kinds of situations.
47:04And I have had, I have watched people sit in front of me and break down in tears going, if
47:09anyone ever knew that I am who I am because of something that was given to me that I never
47:15even asked for.
47:16The guilt.
47:17I've had to deal with a lot of people who feel guilty.
47:20Like, what's that called?
47:21Imposter syndrome.
47:23I say, I'm not, right?
47:25It's like, I mean, you've heard, you know, you're a musician, right?
47:29You know, I think it was Paul McCartney, the song Yesterday, just dropped, dreamed it, never wrote it, never came
47:37up with it.
47:38It just dropped, you know?
47:40I know Taylor Swift has had those experiences.
47:43It's just, they get dropped, right?
47:45And you know it in the music world, it happens all the time.
47:49I mean, there's guys that have worked on a song for 10 years, right?
47:53And there's moments where it's just like, whoosh.
47:56It's like, what do they call it?
47:58Lightning in a bottle, right?
47:59It's just there.
48:00I know this has happened in the IT world.
48:02It's happened in the sport, in all kinds of things.
48:06Moments where people can go back and go, that was supernatural.
48:11I have no idea where that came from and why that happened, but that just is not normal.
48:17So that's, you know, I'm sorry for ranting here, but it's where my perspective comes from
48:24because I have firsthand knowledge of God moving in a lot of different ways.
48:31And so I get kind of frustrated when I watch the church world go, it's like we're an exclusive
48:39little club and God only talks to us and we're special.
48:43And I'm like, no, you're not.
48:45You haven't seen it yet, but I just recorded a podcast.
48:49I think it comes out before this one.
48:51Who owns the revival?
48:53That's one of the big problems with the revival culture is when you're in the revival culture,
48:57you think, well, God can't operate outside of this.
49:00Well, what about the other church that God is operating in?
49:03And a lot of people accuse me of being against the gifts and not believing in all of the experiences.
49:09It isn't that at all.
49:10It's just that I have seen what happens whenever a person starts saying God told me because
49:16some experience happened and I was there for the original experience and I know exactly
49:20why the original experience happened.
49:22Well, my question is, why does people need to know God told you?
49:24Yeah.
49:25See, when somebody says to me, God told me, you know, the first thought that goes through
49:30my mind, why did you need to tell me that?
49:33Why don't you just tell me what God told you and let me determine whether God told you that?
49:39Because I don't know.
49:41You see what I mean?
49:42It's like, I'm sorry, but this is what happens when you get to be older.
49:45You just start looking at this going, oh, wait a minute.
49:48I'm in front of a wannabe, somebody who's desperately needing, right?
49:53They got to add the God told me on it, you know, to, you know, give a little extra juice
49:59to what they're saying and to let me know that they're a God here.
50:06They got the red phone to heaven and God.
50:09I don't need to know that.
50:11I'll know that by what you tell me, right?
50:15It's like, and that's why I just, again, it's this whole culture, the God told me culture.
50:21Like, where did that come from, right?
50:23Again, to me, it's rooted in insecurity, low self-esteem, a need to be seen as special,
50:32a need for validation.
50:34Like, I could go on and on and on.
50:35Just tell me what you think.
50:39Like, I don't know if it's God.
50:41Penny will drop.
50:43Yeah.
50:43I mean, all the time.
50:44I could tell people right away, oh, because it'll suddenly, you know, because to me, I don't
50:51know it's God because it'll be a key.
50:53Does that make sense?
50:54When you know it's God, it's always a key to unlocking something, right?
50:59Because that's really kind of what prophecy should be.
51:02It should unlock something.
51:04And so, I'm in a situation, somebody comes to me and goes, I had this sense, blah, blah,
51:09blah, blah.
51:09And I go, oh my gosh, that's the key.
51:12That's what I needed to unlock.
51:15That was God.
51:16I didn't even tell me that was God.
51:19I know.
51:21Well, in the end, it turns into a tool for manipulation.
51:25Think about this.
51:26Think about the minister who's up there behind the pulpit, and he says, I think we should
51:30do this.
51:31Well, then people in the congregation can say, well, I agree with you, pastor, and they
51:36can do it.
51:37Or they can say, I don't know if I agree with that.
51:39Let me think about it.
51:40You get the choice, right?
51:42But instead, if they say, well, God told me we need to do this, well, you're questioning
51:46God if you question him at all.
51:48That's really, it's manipulative.
51:50That's one of the big problems.
51:52It corners you, right?
51:53You're cornered now.
51:54It's like, what are you going to do?
51:56Your only response is to reject God or go, oh, brother, thank you for hearing God, right?
52:04It's like, you only have two choices.
52:08And so, yes, I, you know, and again, this is just me being me, but I just find the whole
52:13God said, the whole need for vindication to be rooted in some very broken, dysfunctional
52:22human soul issues, right?
52:25It's just this need to be validated, this need to be vindicated, this need, need, need
52:32to be seen, this need to be valued, right?
52:36I mean, it's, it's needy, right?
52:37It's just, so in my, sorry guys, but in my, what do I call it, my economy, my spiritual
52:47economy, when you come to me with God said to me or God showed me, my first reaction
52:54is, I'm sorry, you're so needy to say it that way, that's where my brain goes, oh gosh,
53:01I'm dealing with somebody that needs to be validated, somebody that, right, this is really,
53:06actually, now I think about it, it's more about them than it really is me getting the
53:11word, right?
53:12It's like, this is really about you, not me.
53:15I saw this, I mean, I just, I think I've shared this story with you, but Bob Jones's
53:21impact at KCF was so incredible that I watched a whole group of people that had come to pray
53:29and study the word suddenly turn into all these prophetic wannabes who could not have
53:35a conversation with you without it starting with God showed me, like, it's just literally
53:42every single day, 50 times a day I was confronted with, well, God showed me in a dream, God gave
53:48me a word, brother, like, it's just, like, it became the thing, and suddenly we were this
53:52whole church of wannabes, like, prophetic wannabes, like, everybody wanted to be like
53:59Bob, not this Bob, the other Bob, be like Bob, God showed me, right, and then what even
54:06got weirder was they had to tell me the dream, which was like something from an LSD trip of
54:13all these types and, right, and then you're sitting there going through 10 minutes of
54:18something that's like a bad drug trip, only for them to be the only one that could then
54:23interpret for you what it was that all this meant.
54:27I used to tell people, can we just get to the end, like, tell me what the point is here,
54:33can I have the Cliff Notes version, or can I just have the executive summaries, can we get
54:37to the point here?
54:38And the reason was, again, they were so needy, they were spending 10 minutes trying to get
54:45strokes and validation and be seen as stuff, right, that's what I mean, it was like, oh
54:50my God, I'm sitting here having to go through somebody's painful dysfunction, right, and I
54:58guess I'm a pastor at the church, so I need to be nice about this, but, you know, most people
55:05out there got to a point where they just couldn't deal with it and they left.
55:09This is one of the things, like, everybody brags about, you know, how many people came
55:13to KCF and how many came to IHOP.
55:15You know what they never talk about?
55:17Well, it's for every one person that came, there was 100 that left.
55:21Yeah.
55:23Because they couldn't deal with it.
55:26You know, it's just like, can we have some, like, authenticity here?
55:30Can we find, is there any normal here?
55:32Do we have normal people here?
55:34It's funny, because what about the people that come up and tell you this?
55:39Who's the one who stands up and says, well, that's interesting.
55:42God told me something different.
55:44Yeah, right.
55:45I mean, that can happen, right?
55:47Well, it's Elijah and the prophets of Baal, right?
55:49It's a battle for, it's a battle of the prophets.
55:53We don't have any of those.
55:54Like, we could have WWP, Worldwide Prophetic Wrestling, right?
56:01We could, like, start a whole thing.
56:03Let's get these two opposing prophets in a ring and battle it out for who's, I'm sorry,
56:08I'm just being weird here.
56:09But it's just, I mean, it's just, my brain goes there, right?
56:12It's like, it's what it feels like.
56:14Well, if anything, we can stop it from going there by what we're doing.
56:19But honestly, I see it actually going to something like that if it continues.
56:22Well, I'll just say one thing, just in closing, and I think you'll concur with this.
56:28There's something else coming.
56:30And my point in this is because we're so needy, there's going to be another IHOP, another Wings
56:39of Healing, another Pentecostal movement.
56:41And why do we know this?
56:43Because if you go back and look at our previous episodes, we've taken you back hundreds of
56:47years and showed you the pattern.
56:50There's a pattern here.
56:51There's a need that humans have.
56:53We all want these validations and these supernatural experiences.
56:58So I'm just waiting.
57:00Sorry, I'm the old fart now sitting, you know, in my rocking chair going, okay, what's coming
57:05next?
57:06You know, it's like, I feel like I'm sitting at one of those, just watching the cars go
57:10by.
57:11There's another one coming.
57:12There's another big movement coming that'll all be about, you know, how special you are
57:17and how special they are and they're all connected to God and they'll be sweeping thousands of
57:24people into it.
57:26We're getting ourselves into trouble, John.
57:29But you know what?
57:29We're both at the point in our life.
57:31It doesn't really matter much.
57:33You know, this is our, this is who we are, right?
57:38Absolutely.
57:39Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the
57:42web.
57:42You can find us at william-branum.org.
57:45For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized
57:49Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, and for more about Mike Bickle and the IHOP
57:54KC, you can read Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle,
57:59the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.
58:32We'll see you next time.
59:00We'll see you next time.