Leaving vs  Healing: How High Control Religion Follows You Into the Workplace | Frannie Nance | 716 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Frannie discuss why leaving a high-control religious environment does not automatically undo the patterns learned inside it. Frannie describes how revival culture, prophetic words, spiritual urgency, external validation, and intense expectations can shape identity and later reappear in workplaces, relationships, leadership dynamics, and the search for purpose.  They explore manipulation, hypervigilance, emotional regulation, workplace authority, love bombing, gaslighting, urgency, and the difficulty of distinguishing familiar patterns from healthy relationships. Frannie reflects on experiences with IHOPKC, Amway, and a difficult workplace environment, while emphasizing the importance of identifying patterns, unlearning unhealthy responses, reevaluating old beliefs, and recognizing that moving on and healing are two different processes.  CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 02:31 How High-Control Religion Conditions You 08:38 Identity Formation After a Personality Cult 16:16 Manipulation, Leadership, and Workplace Boundaries 22:05 Franny’s Toxic Workplace Experience 28:32 Christianity, Manipulation, and the Workplace 35:44 Urgency, Entitlement, and Recognizing Old Patterns 42:44 Emotional Regulation, Faith, and Learning to Heal 50:09 Parenting, Hypervigilance, and Unlearning 54:07 Moving On Isn’t the Same as Healing ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former member of Charismania.

00:47Franny, you are aware of this. We've just talked about it.

00:50But to the audience, I've been having multiple conversations with multiple people about healing and what it means to heal

00:57before you move on.

00:59Because this is a process when you're coming out of one of these groups.

01:02It is it's really, really difficult and it makes people go through all kinds of levels of pain.

01:09I know it did me. And we had this had this conversation recently where you need to heal and move

01:17on.

01:17Because it's like if you're in an abusive marriage and the abusive spouse has been abusing you, well, everything looks

01:22like the abusive spouse once you move out, if you move too quickly.

01:26Well, if you're in an abusive church and you move out and you go to a new church, every church

01:31is going to feel abusive if they get just a little bit too strong in certain areas.

01:36So that's one avenue of healing.

01:39But there's this other avenue that I want to explore with you, which was your idea and a good one

01:44at that.

01:45What about whenever you're going through exactly everything that I just said, but it's applying in different places that you

01:52didn't expect, such as the workplace?

01:55There are elements of manipulation that you had in the church movement that, honestly, pieces of that you can start

02:05to feel when you're in the workplace.

02:06And it may not be for any destructive reason.

02:09It's just that people have similar personality traits, but you're hypersensitive to those traits.

02:15And so it makes work different, very difficult.

02:19It makes relationships difficult.

02:20And anyway, I wanted to explore the difficulties that people have beyond all of the other discussions that I've been

02:27having and try to help people with moving on in their lives.

02:31Yeah, that's a great introduction.

02:33And you didn't ask me to do this, but just a plug for your other podcasts, the episodes that you've

02:41done with other guests talking about their healing process.

02:45And then just your ongoing series that you've had with, I think, Chinno, John McKinnon and others.

02:53They're really good, just sort of talking about the history of a lot of these movements, because it does prime

03:00you to see patterns.

03:03You can draw parallels between your life.

03:05And I, you know, I've reached out to you about this specific topic, because sort of growing up in this

03:13environment, you know, a lot of people tell themselves, well, I, you know, I didn't grow up in a cult,

03:18necessarily.

03:19It wasn't, you know, I can leave, like, it wasn't what you think of as the stereotype of a cult.

03:24But growing up in this type of high control movement with that, and I say with the special flavor of

03:31charismania, it, especially as a kid, it really, it primes you, like it changes your brain.

03:38And for other high control, whether it's relationships, or you just find yourself being attracted to those specific destructive behaviors

03:52or groups until you can heal or start to identify patterns.

03:59And so, I think, and I say that a lot by identifying patterns, but I wanted to speak to something

04:04personally a few years ago that I found myself in, and I had mentioned this before, but a work environment

04:11that closely, as I, you know, the longer I was in it, I realized how much, you know, once I

04:19left, how it closely mirrored a lot of my childhood, my family system, churches that we attended.

04:28And, you know, I kind of found myself asking, how do I keep, why do I keep ending up with

04:33these people, or ending up in these types of environments?

04:36And it really is what sort of, you know, I'd been in therapy for years, and I hadn't been attending

04:42a NAR church or anything like that.

04:45But it was leaving this toxic work environment, where it really opened my eyes, and was able to find language

04:54to put to basically what I had been experiencing my whole life, and why I had been stagnant in therapy,

05:01you know, I've been working on things, and, you know, I kept finding myself in similar patterns.

05:06And, yeah, so that's why I wanted to kind of speak to that, because the, how do I say this?

05:15Yes, it's the foundation that I see that's laid for a lot of parents that do this for kids in

05:21these, in these movements, because they are, they use very radical, intense language, you know, end of the age, revival,

05:29you know, 100% instant obedience, you know, not questioning God, and any type of doubt, unbelief, you know, that's

05:40opening the door to the devil.

05:41People, you know, you want all that God has for you, keep yourself pure, holy, be on fire, you know,

05:48like, go for God, tell people about God, if you're not telling people about him, you know, winning souls for

05:53Christ, like, you know, you're damning people to hell, and God's going to be disappointed in you.

05:58So, there's a lot of that intense language, and it really does get embedded in you, if you're growing up,

06:06and it's in the music, the songs that are sung, it's in the preaching, the stories that are always being

06:12told.

06:13Actually, one of your podcasts that you recently released, I think it was you and Chinna, you guys are talking

06:18about the stories, that it's less about the actual Bible.

06:23It's like, they may throw out a scripture, but then it's the stories.

06:27And so, a lot of that gets in there and primes you, and as well, if you're in a movement

06:33where they heavily emphasize prophecy, like, the prophetic discernment, that gets in there, too.

06:40So, there really is this whole, like, you know, you're the chosen generation, you know, be intense for Jesus, God's

06:47going to use you, has a mighty plan for your life,

06:49and it's this intensity of trying to find that.

06:56And so, that's kind of where I'm sort of going with this, where being primed with that revival language, that

07:04give your all, all these prophetic words, growing up around it, seeing the adults in my life,

07:10talking about, you know, the end of the age, Jesus is coming back, God's going to use this generation, everything's

07:15a demon, you know, discernment, intuition, whatever.

07:20And, you know, now looking back, sort of learning, like, these are, you know, a lot of people's trauma responses,

07:26it's not discernment.

07:27It's, you know, there's a lot of undealt with or unhealed mental illness, and sort of led me and primed

07:38me for these groups where I'm looking for, okay, I need to find my calling.

07:44Like, where's, you know, I need to, I'm not finding it here, you know, where I would end up at

07:49a, you know, intern for a youth minister, Bob Weiner, in, when I was 19, in college, and then jumping,

07:59you know, and that being exhausting and draining.

08:01And so then jumping to IHOPKC was there for and looking for my calling and trying to find it out

08:07and trying to be good and do the right things and exhausting myself with that to jumping into Amway, which

08:14we talked about in our last podcast, you know, and until, you know, finally, you know, with this work environment

08:23that, you know, I'll talk a little bit about the patterns.

08:26It really took that to kind of see, oh, my gosh, sort of looking at the patterns and then trying

08:32to figure out, okay, I need to find another, another way.

08:36This is really such a big conversation.

08:38It's actually much bigger than this one single podcast.

08:41I've actually been looking for the right personality to do this.

08:45It's not something that any person who's adept in discussing psychology can handle.

08:51But there really needs to be an effort to help people with their personalities after they have left a personality

08:58cult.

08:59That is something that I've looked on the Internet.

09:01It's just simply an untapped area of expertise.

09:04There needs to be somebody who can do this.

09:06I'm actually putting the call out there.

09:08If there's somebody listening who feels like you're a good person to do that, contact me on the website because

09:13I really, really do want to do this.

09:14I had a conversation just last evening with a person who had left the personality cult that I came from,

09:21and this person had a very similar issue to what I hear a lot of the others saying.

09:28They don't really know how to do relationships after you leave a personality cult because everybody has the same personality.

09:35You're all kind of alike, and that's the way that these cults develop.

09:40The central figure, whether it's an apostle or a prophet or whoever it is, you're trying to mimic that personality.

09:47When you leave it, you suddenly feel disconnected, and you want to connect with people.

09:52And so this person I was talking with last night said that he had this problem because he would just

09:58follow people around like a puppy dog, wanting so badly to have a relationship with them.

10:02And they're like, what are you doing, man?

10:04Get away from me.

10:06You know, you're just, you're not handling relationships in the way that other normal people, and I'm using that word

10:13very, very loosely, normal people who have not been in a personality cult would handle it.

10:19And it really comes down to this.

10:22It wasn't just a set of doctrines that define the church.

10:26That's why you can look at a personality cult and you can say this isn't really about Jesus because it's

10:31not about the doctrines.

10:32It's more about the identity formation system.

10:38When you join it, you're given this identity, and it has to match the system.

10:43Otherwise, we'll kick you out and you go down to the church down the street, right?

10:47So it's changing your identity in such a way where revival culture, for example.

10:55When you're a child in revival culture, it's not theology that you're experiencing.

11:00It's the atmosphere.

11:01I'm in the atmosphere of revival culture, right?

11:04So when you leave this, you're stuck with the idea that you were destined for something because that's part of

11:11the personality.

11:12And prophetic words, for example, you mentioned that.

11:15Well, those can actually become identity assignments.

11:19This is who you are.

11:20This is what God is going to do for you.

11:23Well, take that to your direction in the workplace.

11:27Well, I'm destined to be a great leader.

11:29But what if you're not?

11:31What if you don't even have the personality traits or even the skill set to become a manager in the

11:36organization, but you're trained to believe that you must be destined for more?

11:41I had this conversation with Chenna just, I don't know, a week ago, I guess.

11:46There's not really a lot of churches in this new apostolic reformation that tell you, now, you're going to have

11:51a normal Christian life.

11:53You're going to live long, and nothing exciting is really going to happen to you.

11:57But you're going to be blessed because God loves you.

11:59And when you die, you're going to go to heaven knowing that you lived a very comfortable life and nothing

12:04really exciting happened.

12:06That's not a sermon that works really well in AR.

12:10But what about the person who goes to work?

12:12You're going to go to your job, and it's going to be very mundane, and you're going to work nine

12:17to five, and you're going to be bored out of your mind because you're doing the same thing every day.

12:21But you're going to get a paycheck, and you're going to live happy because you have a paycheck.

12:24You see how those two can connect.

12:28When you feel like you're destined to be something greater, you're never really satisfied with what you have.

12:33And so as that forms into your identity, now you carry that with you everywhere you go, and your identity

12:40is actually blocking you from having a happy, fulfilling life.

12:43A hundred percent, yeah, and it's that intensity.

12:47There's this conditioning where there's this emotional high where you're trained in this type of environment that having an emotional

12:58high, experiencing an emotional worship, whether it's joyous or crying or whatever it is, that equals I'm in right standing

13:08with God.

13:09So hype equals I'm in right standing with God.

13:13So you get used to seeking that, like, and you get used, conditioned to look for that same language where

13:21it's sort of like an external confirmation, like, oh, I got a prophetic word.

13:25This person called me out.

13:26They saw me.

13:27They saw my hunger.

13:29You know, so I'm presenting as very hungry, desperate for God.

13:33Like, I'm the most, you're not thinking you're special, but at the same time, it's like that, it's like a

13:37confirmation, like, okay, I'm special.

13:40And those leaders, like, it's very easy if you're looking out in the crowd and you're seeing people, you can

13:45just pick anyone out and say, like, I see your hunger and, you know, say like a general word of

13:50encouragement to them or to everybody.

13:52Um, and so it's that external validation, um, and they, it's, it's embedded in the preaching and in these movements

14:00and in, in the books, like just this, um, it's an intensity.

14:06It's, I mean, cause I remember, and I just want to speak to, I think Mike Bickle is probably one

14:10of the worst.

14:11And that's why, you know, when I, I mentioned this work situation, because that boss is very similar to a

14:20Mike Bickle.

14:21I think a lot of times when we leave these movements, we get very conditioned to like, we look at

14:25a Benny Hinn and we're like, oh, well, he's ostentatious and flamboyant.

14:28And, you know, you give your money, look at these expensive cars, he drives, but a lot of these leaders,

14:33like a Mike Bickle are very manipulative and deceptive in that, in that term, like vulnerable narcissist or covert narcissist,

14:40where they have a lot of doublespeak.

14:43They present as humble, um, and they'll say stuff like, you know, cause Mike Bickle used to say that, like,

14:50oh, you're not special.

14:51He didn't say like, oh, you're not special, but it was just kind of like, oh, God wants us to

14:54live an ordinary life.

14:55So, he'd say that, but then the whole culture at IHOPKC, and I would say a lot of these church

15:02movements, like in Charismania, NAR, they know it's bad to be like a Benny Hinn.

15:08You know, you don't want to look flashy, but at the same time, you know, so you say out of

15:12one side of your mouth, like, you know, oh, God wants you to go out into the world, into the

15:16workplace.

15:16But then they reward the intensity, like a, you know, he always had Lou Engel come or whoever, and it

15:23was this intensity of like, wow, this person, they're working a normal job, but wow, they come up here to

15:29IHOPKC and labor in the place of prayer for hours, you know.

15:32And that, so, that conditioning, it really does prime you that, I would say, looking for an external validation, like,

15:41because you can't trust internally, like, you're looking for the leader, the anointed one, I'm in this, you know, atmosphere.

15:48And then, two, you know, it's, then when you start to question, like you're, we always say in this podcast,

15:55you know, turn off your critical thinking, you're like, gosh, well, that seems to conflict.

15:58Like, you're saying that we need to go work a normal job at the same time, like, we need to

16:02spend hours laboring in the place of prayer because Jesus is coming back soon.

16:05What is it?

16:05You know, which one is it?

16:07Or, you know, bringing, so, it does, there is like a disconnect, disassociation there.

16:16So, that opens the door to another conversation, which also could be a greater podcast or series of podcasts.

16:23I'm fascinated with psychology.

16:25I have been for years, ever since I realized what they did to my head, I wanted to know how

16:30they did it.

16:31And one thing that I've learned that's really, really difficult, but was kind of easier for me than other people

16:37leaving these movements.

16:40I started, whenever I left this Branham cult, I was in my own business.

16:45And so, I had a consulting company, I was working with different organizations, and I got to see and experience

16:51the small organization, which might have two or three to five people, the larger corporations that had a CEO and

16:59CIOs and all of these layers of people, everything in between.

17:02So, I had the opportunity to experience multiple levels of business structures.

17:10There's one thing that Bob Scott says, and he said it in his book, too, about IHOPKC, that's actually accurate.

17:16Most of your C-level figures have an A-type personality, and some of them are even narcissistic.

17:23And that's true.

17:24I've encountered this, and those people are very much like this.

17:28But when you leave a destructive group that is led by a narcissistic personality, and that personality becomes part of

17:36the identity of the group, you are very uncomfortable around somebody who has this.

17:41So, I was in organizations where I simply could not work with the top-level figures because they had this

17:48disorder, and I was hypersensitive to it.

17:51And worse, I knew the way that they could manipulate me because I had been manipulated for 37 years.

17:58I was successful in that because of the way that my business was structured.

18:03I would tell them what I required, and I could put people in between us, or I could hire somebody

18:08to be in between us.

18:09So, I didn't have to deal with it.

18:10But not everybody can do this.

18:12There are people who are in organizations that they just have a really strong personality conflict with their boss or

18:18the people above them.

18:19And what do you do with that?

18:21You've been conditioned to believe that these people will manipulate you.

18:26And then here's where the line gets really sketchy.

18:30I read – one of the things that I read when I was leaving the cult was this book by

18:35Edward Bernays, Propaganda.

18:38Highly recommend anybody read it.

18:40It's talking about how you achieve mass persuasion, this kind of thing.

18:43Well, there are elements of manipulation that are all across the business world, especially in sales and marketing.

18:50They want to manipulate you to buy their product.

18:53Is that bad?

18:54I don't know.

18:55It's not something that I feel comfortable with now that I have been abused by manipulation.

19:01But at the same time, I have bought products that I was manipulated to buy, and I like some of

19:06them.

19:06I really do.

19:07So you're going to experience some of the things that hit you very negatively in the church world that you

19:15just see everywhere.

19:16It's on television.

19:17I remember talking with people who were telling me that they just can't watch TV because the commercials are sending

19:23them subliminal messages.

19:26And when you first come out, there's this weird conspiracy theory mindset that you go into, I believe, some of

19:32what they said, until I started learning psychology.

19:35And I'm realizing, no, that's not exactly what's happening.

19:38They are feeling that manipulation that is in the marketing.

19:42And that's one of the things that we, as people who escape these high-demand groups, we all feel it

19:47because we were manipulated.

19:49But you have to determine what are the areas of healthy manipulation, if that is a thing, and those that

19:56are really destructive.

19:56And you have to be able to set your boundaries.

19:59So for me, I had to learn to put up boundaries.

20:02And I'll admit to people openly, whenever I had my consulting business, I actually fired clients that I just simply

20:09couldn't work with.

20:09So I could put up a boundary.

20:12Not everybody can do this.

20:13If you leave, you're in the workplace.

20:15Sometimes you have to have your job.

20:16Yeah, and yeah, I would say, too, it's interesting how it conditions you.

20:23I was conditioned very much to, you know, any sort of, that's why these terms, it really has been so

20:30helpful to find definitions to terms or find the language.

20:35So, for example, the book by Wade Mullen, Something's Not Right, was a great one just to put language to

20:41what you're feeling.

20:42But the same thing of the term love bombing.

20:44And I know a lot of people, quote unquote, overuse these terms.

20:47But there's a lot of that that primes you to then continue to find yourself in these situations.

20:54And I think until you really step out and try to heal, it's like, gosh, why am I attracted to

21:00this type of personality?

21:02Or what is it that keeps drawing me into these types of groups?

21:06Let me, you know, figure that out.

21:09And that's why, too, another thing you pointed out in one of your podcasts, which I thought I 100%

21:13agree with and think it's actually very helpful advice.

21:17It's when you find a therapist, you seek a therapist, you know, you want to find a good one.

21:22Sometimes it takes a little while.

21:24But I made a point not to go to a Christian therapist.

21:28And no, they did not talk me out of my religion.

21:32That's not what they do.

21:34That's unprofessional.

21:35They're not trained to do that.

21:37And I have the benefit.

21:38I have a very good friend who's actually, she's a therapist.

21:40But it's helpful because it's an outside view that I think that is healthy.

21:48It's a trained person.

21:48They're licensed.

21:49They're on a board.

21:51They have to be, you know, follow certain protocols.

21:54So, in order to work through your, you know, church experience and what's God, what wasn't, what was that, that

22:03actually was very helpful for me.

22:06Because, you know, I keep talking about this working thing.

22:09I just, when I, you know, had gone, decided to go back to work after I had my third child,

22:14I ended up working in this organization where the leader was very presented as very humble and like a really

22:23strong Christian and just this, oh, shucks, I'm just a homeschool country boy, you know, whatever.

22:29And it was a friend that got me the job there.

22:32And I started as his, the owner's assistant, you know, just like doing admin stuff and was really snowed, like,

22:41you know, wasn't particularly attractive or anything.

22:44But I just was like, oh, he's so nice, you know, and he was always like praying and, you know,

22:49quoting scripture and I just want to serve people and love people, whatever.

22:55And so, I, he presented himself, now I have the term, a vulnerable narcissist, just like very innocent.

23:05And so, I remember thinking as I, the more I worked for him, and he eventually promoted me to the

23:12director of operations.

23:15But, you know, I would notice people in his organization that were friends or family, and I'm like, they're using

23:20him.

23:20And so, you know, I would look at everyone else, but the leader, the person at the top, where, who's

23:26in charge, because they present themselves as like, I, you know, well, shucks, I don't know.

23:31And so, really, it was over time, I kind of wrote notes to keep me on topic, but my point

23:37is that the leader presented himself as a really good guy, used Christian language, and, you know, any time I

23:47would, you know, there was always someone else's fault he would deflect to.

23:51And I'm like, yeah, that person's, you know, whatever.

23:52So, any time I would raise any kind of issue, you know, with the organization, a lot of times my

24:00concerns would get reframed as me gossiping, or as me not shutting down, you know, gossip and how there, he

24:08was disappointed in me and whatnot.

24:10And because of how it was raised, and in these various organizations, I needed, like, I like to be affirmed

24:19as like the fixer, the, you know, I'm, you're doing an amazing job and whatnot.

24:25And so, when I'm getting this feedback that I'm causing division or, you know, bringing in gossip, I was just

24:29like, oh, my gosh.

24:31And so, you know, I work harder, and I stayed there for a few years, but it really, it led

24:39me into exhaustion.

24:40You know, finally, my husband was like, you know, this is going to cost us our marriage if you don't

24:45quit this job.

24:47And it was really exhausting and draining, and I think the harder I worked, the longer I stayed, you know,

24:56the worse it got and the worse I felt about myself.

24:59And again, no one saw the leader for who he was until, you know, the closer you get to him

25:07and you see it.

25:07And if you were to point this out to anybody, they think you're crazy, jealous, manipulative.

25:12But I would see how this man would twist words, deflect back onto other people, and there was just so

25:20much chaos and confusion the closer you get to the top, but would never take any kind of accountability.

25:27And so, anyway, I left just exhausted, destroyed, you know, luckily I was able to jump into another job.

25:34But my point was that I kind of came out of that thinking, what the heck was that?

25:39And that's what then led me on my journey with what is complex PTSD, what is narcissism, what is gaslighting,

25:48what is love, what are those terms?

25:50And then hearing other people's stories and then being able to connect those patterns of like, because when I was

25:56working for this company, you know, at this point, I, you know, I wasn't going to an NAR church.

26:01And I hadn't really grappled with my upbringing in a sense of like, what is, what is the charismania?

26:07What is, what are all these prophecies?

26:10I just kind of threw them to the side.

26:12But as I'm working here, and I'm starting to see things work out, and there's all the spiritual language being

26:17used, some of those old prophetic words, I was like, well, maybe, maybe this is what, you know, maybe this

26:24is my calling.

26:24Like, it started to get that high of that.

26:28So, I do think it's interesting, if you grow up in this, you do need to grapple, or not even

26:33grow up in it.

26:34Like, you've been a part of it, you do need to grapple with what was that, all these spiritual gifts

26:38or prophetic words or whatever, because the residual of it still can stay there.

26:42But my point being is that after I left this organization, it was a year later that the Mike Bickle

26:48stuff came out.

26:50And I 100% believed it the minute I read it.

26:54And it was interesting, because for years, even after I left IHOP, I left in 2005, and I would just

27:00always use Mike Bickle as an example of, like, a great leader.

27:04Because I was like, well, he's not Benny Hinn, and look at him, he's still humble, he makes all this

27:08money, and whatever.

27:10And then, you know, all these allegations come out, they're true, I believe, you know, alleged.

27:17And I was able to draw that parallel with my old boss, because he was just like that, like, you

27:22know, evasive and, you know, presenting in a certain way that throws people off the scent, or makes you question,

27:30because you're like, well, maybe I'm not really, I guess I'm wrong.

27:33Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

27:41reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

27:46You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

27:54On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

28:02John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

28:08You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

28:14If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

28:21top.

28:21And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

28:27watching.

28:28On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

28:33You have a way of bringing up topics that I really want to explore, and you don't even know that

28:38you're doing it.

28:39One of the things that you just brought up is something that I really haven't talked about much, but I

28:44have really, really wanted to, and that is Christians in the workplace.

28:48And I know I'm going to make a lot of people mad, so go ahead and hate me for it,

28:52but I'm going to tell you straight up that all of the laws that have been passed about the governance

28:59of religion in the workplace, I'm fully on board with.

29:02I really agree with this, and here's why.

29:05What you described is something that is a common problem that anybody who has escaped an abusive religion can identify

29:12with.

29:13There's that one person who's usually a boss who's overbearingly Christian, and you feel like you must gravitate to them

29:21because they're the one who's outstandingly Christian in the organization.

29:24But there's that one little aspect of it that really makes you uncomfortable, and you never can put your finger

29:30on why it is.

29:31And you start to feel inwardly guilty.

29:33Why am I uncomfortable?

29:34This person's obviously a Christian.

29:37The problem is that what they're doing when they're doing this, not only is it in violation of a few

29:42laws, it is very, very manipulative.

29:46Think about the ones who are not Christian who are in the organization.

29:50How do they feel about this?

29:52And I know that's going to step on some heads, so think of it slightly differently.

29:57There are 40,000 Christian denominations, and it's probably greater than that number now.

30:04Each one of them has doctrines that you don't agree with, and that's why they formed their own denomination.

30:10When somebody's doing this, they're actually of a different religion than you.

30:14That's the uncomfortable part you're feeling.

30:16I don't really connect with that, but they're Christian.

30:19I must connect with them.

30:21But what they're doing is they're trying to manipulate you into their form of Christianity.

30:26This is a huge problem, and I'll be straight up.

30:30I have no problem with somebody expressing I'm a Christian.

30:32But when they're overbearingly Christian to manipulate others to become Christian, number one, that doesn't work in the first place.

30:39That's not how you would attract somebody who's not a Christian to be one.

30:42Number two, it is really only for show for the people who are of a different Christian faith to bring

30:49them into your version of it.

30:50That is manipulation, pure, plain, and simple.

30:52I've experienced this, and I have an unwritten rule whenever I was getting clients for my contracting business.

31:03If they opened the door and said the word Christianity or Christian or Jesus more than five times in my

31:09introduction speech, I never signed a contract.

31:12I would walk away from it because they were going to try to do that to me, and I just

31:15don't have time for that.

31:17I want to focus on business.

31:19If I wanted church, I would go to church.

31:21I don't do that in the workplace, right?

31:23And I know, again, there will be people that hate me for it, but if you've been abused, you're of

31:28a mindset that you have to think of it like, what if this was an Islamic person who was doing

31:33the same thing to me?

31:35Would I be as open to them praying to Allah and encouraging me to pray to Allah?

31:41I'm not Islamic.

31:42I don't want that.

31:43I would just push that person away.

31:45Well, if they have a different doctrinal framework, it's kind of the same thing.

31:50You just don't recognize it because you've been manipulated to believe that it's either on or off, right or wrong.

31:56This person has it or he don't.

31:58Yes, that is so well said.

32:00Exactly.

32:01You know, because there were times where we'd have some serious HR issues, and it was very much like, well,

32:10you know, if we fire this person, how are they going to hear the gospel?

32:14And I'm like, what?

32:16I mean, just bizarre language.

32:20And yeah, I don't think it's not healthy.

32:23It's incredibly destructive to have.

32:25And it's, I mean, it's very unprofessional.

32:27And I 100% agree with you.

32:29There's reasons why, you know, we have this separation that's important.

32:36And, but I think this intense, I keep saying intense charismania, but it really is, it primes you that it

32:44has to, you know, infiltrate all parts of your life.

32:47And that's what used to irritate me, like, I still see it.

32:51It's a lot of Christians are like, oh, kingdom business, kingdom this, kingdom that, you know, whatever.

32:56God wants you to prosper and have a kingdom business.

32:58And it's just this, you know, bringing, you know, God or Jesus into all of your business or whatever.

33:06And it's like, why can't you just be a normal person or just, you know, not have to, like, scream

33:13it from the mountaintops what you are.

33:14Or you don't have to, like, say I'm a kingdom business.

33:16But it's just kind of like, these are the ethics of, you know, morals that I guide my life, you

33:23know, looking at the Bible.

33:24So I will live that way instead of, you know, screaming out loud and having to feel like you've got

33:29to convert everyone to what you believe.

33:33There's another problem that really was strong for people who came out of the group that I came from.

33:39Because we were in a destructive cult, a very destructive framework that was a doomsday cult.

33:44And some of the charismatic NAR groups, like you mentioned, Mike Bickle, IHOPKC, they have this strong doomsday focus or

33:53strong end of times focus.

33:55And it's really urgent.

33:56It's urgent that you do it now.

33:57You must be now.

33:58Everything is now, now, now, now.

34:00And that's the marketing.

34:01You get, that gets into your identity like you were talking about earlier.

34:05There's a problem with that when you enter the workplace because you still have that identity.

34:10And everything is now, it's me.

34:13I'm the special one.

34:13I'm the chosen one.

34:15You're looking for the greater paycheck, the greater position, all of this stuff.

34:19I know people who are self-employed, who are disrupted by that mindset because they want to go after the

34:28get-rich-quick schemes.

34:30Everything must be now.

34:31I must have this big paycheck now.

34:33The world is about to end.

34:35And they lose focus on the slow and steady to build up their business properly.

34:40And so I've watched businesses actually crumble because of this.

34:43In fact, I hate to admit it that I've had that happen to me as well.

34:47It was just part of my mindset and part of your makeup and identity.

34:51When you're in an actual workplace that has a corporation structure and a corporate ladder, it makes you want to

34:57jump up that ladder several different rungs instead of going properly up.

35:02And there are people who actually do it.

35:04I'm one of the people also who jumped from the corporate ladder from entry-level developer all the way up

35:09to CIO in a corporation.

35:11I did make the jumps.

35:14But the problem is when you do that, when you skip rungs of that corporate ladder, you're not actually getting

35:20the experience that you need to do the job properly when you do make the jumps.

35:23So there were situations I would find myself in that I had no clue how to handle just because of

35:28this.

35:28It really was a detriment to my career.

35:32And I know that there are other people who share similar experiences with their workplace environment.

35:37But that instilled sense of urgency is destructive not only in the church but also everywhere, every aspect of life.

35:44Yeah, the instilled sense of urgency and then this – I mean, I would say I'm guilty of it.

35:52This entitlement of, you know, I'm anointed, I am a believer and God has a call in my life and

36:01he's coming back soon and he wants us to prosper in order to establish his kingdom here on earth and

36:09whatever, prepare the way for him.

36:12And it is that – again, it's not that – so I wouldn't say the opposite is, you know, well,

36:17I leave these destructive groups and I have to really rebuild who am I?

36:21What is my identity?

36:22I'm not like – I'm not saying I'm a piece of garbage nobody that, you know, but when we were

36:27attending the Presbyterian Church in Virginia, it was really great.

36:31So I remember, it was very steady, stable, and there was a sermon that just sort of talking about –

36:39it was a series just about renewal and, you know, God renewing all things and just – it's such a

36:44gradual process, you know.

36:47It's just an eternal thing in a sense of the renewal.

36:52It's not an instant, you know, happening or whatever.

36:57And I think a lot of what these charismatic NAR people, they really latch on to this intense language of,

37:07you know, taking the kingdom by force and, you know, God's kingdom and they ignore basically like the Sermon on

37:15the Mount or like Mike Bickle, they talk out of both sides of their mouth saying, oh, Sermon on the

37:21Mount living.

37:22And then the closer you get to the leader – and sometimes, you know, you need to see that too,

37:26whether it's a work environment or church.

37:28The closer you get to the leader, you start to see the things that are making you question, like, wait

37:35a minute, you keep talking about Sermon on Mount living, but then you do this.

37:38And then if you bring it up to the person, they twist the words and flip it back on you.

37:42And that's what kept happening in my work environment.

37:45And one person I would love to talk to would be – I think she was the former director of

37:49operations for Mike Bickle.

37:51I think her name is Elizabeth.

37:52Elizabeth, if you're out there, would love to talk to you.

37:54Because she – I was listening to an interview of hers and she would talk about how, you know, she

38:00would see the books and then present to Mike.

38:02Like, you know, we've got people who are raising support that are giving their all and they're, like, living impoverished,

38:10you know, and it's just true.

38:12People at great sacrifice, I mean, who had families, you know, felt very called and just – they had no

38:20money.

38:21And so, she was trying to say, look, we need to pay people.

38:24So, that's another thing.

38:24IHOP was built on free labor, people that volunteered their time, you know, giving.

38:30And he would, you know, through – I love the term word salad of another friend that coined this term

38:36called confusion spray.

38:37Like, when you try to talk to someone about something, she would say, like, it was the same boss.

38:41She's like, I tried to talk to him and he sprayed his confusion spray and I ended up leaving his

38:44office agreeing with him.

38:45And so, that's, you know, and when Elizabeth Herter was telling the story, she's saying how he immediately started saying,

38:52oh, well, you know, if I had a million dollars, we could pay everyone and, you know, we can't and

38:57all these excuses.

38:58And when she said that, it was like, ding, ding, ding, because of that organization where I used to work

39:03that wasn't Christian, but we grossly underpaid, in my opinion, didn't pay people well.

39:10And I'm thinking even selfishly, like, you want this organization to keep going.

39:13We have these good people that we've trained.

39:15We need to pay them.

39:17And he would say stuff like, well, if I had a million dollars, I would, just this evasive language.

39:22And so, when I heard Elizabeth say that, I was like, man, there is a pattern to this type of

39:27personality.

39:28And that's why, you know, I do encourage people.

39:32Like you were saying, you don't want to be paranoid.

39:34You're not looking for, it's the same thing.

39:36If I'm not looking for a demon around every corner or a conspiracy.

39:40But there is a level of, you start to see a pattern in your critical thinking, the little, you know,

39:47in the spiritual world, we'd say the check's in your spirit or whatever.

39:51It's like, it's not using that language.

39:53But there's a little like, hmm, pause that you have.

39:56You explore that.

39:59Like, because you can, you start to see patterns and that is when you can start to identify patterns, you

40:05could put language to these personality types or, and not to, you know, put them in a, whatever, but just

40:12to help you so you can identify, okay, I keep getting attracted to this.

40:17I keep ending up in these types of situations.

40:19So, now in my work, you know, I'm looking for stable structure, you know, if someone says, like, we're like

40:28a family here, I'm going to leave.

40:30It's like, that's a red flag to me, you know, things like that.

40:33And like you were saying, if there's like all this Christian language you're getting like, you know, punched with, like

40:39from the moment of beginning, you know, meeting, that's when it's kind of like, okay, ding, ding, ding, red flag,

40:47you know.

40:47So, here's the patterns that I've experienced, even though I seem to be attracted to this because it's comforting, you

40:54know, I need to leave or I need to find another way.

40:57So.

40:58You use the phrase confusion spray.

41:00I use constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth.

41:04That's really what it is.

41:06But what you're describing actually is really important that people get because, so you talk about the martyring complex.

41:13You're starving yourself.

41:14You're not getting paid.

41:16Well, think about this, that when people leave, it isn't just leaving that makes them safe.

41:21Leaving isn't the same thing as healing.

41:23You leave, but you have been in a system that has trained you to live in an unhealthy way, to

41:31think in an unhealthy way.

41:33You are still things like hypervigilance.

41:36You're still suffering with those things.

41:38And so you're attracted to other people who are hypervigilant or other groups that are.

41:44You're looking for this urgency.

41:46What if you go to a church that doesn't have that urgency?

41:48You think, well, those people just aren't on fire for God.

41:51And it's not that.

41:52It's that you have a different level of urgency than the other people have.

41:56But that carries with you everywhere you go.

41:59Unless you're healing mentally and psychologically of the issues that they psychologically implanted in your head, you're still going to

42:08be sick.

42:09Think of it not psychologically.

42:10Think of it like somebody gave you the flu.

42:13Well, just because you walked out the door doesn't mean that you left the flu back in the house.

42:17You still have it.

42:18And so people often confuse leaving with healing.

42:22And it's not so simple as that.

42:24You do have to heal.

42:26You have to learn.

42:27There's a lot you have to learn.

42:28And you have to relearn how to have interactions with other people in such a way that is triggering your

42:38true identity to come out,

42:40not the identity that they have programmed into you.

42:43Yes, I would say that that is 100% true.

42:46And that has been true for me.

42:51And I think also having to face a lot of it, too.

42:56Like I had mentioned, you know, I left IHOP.

43:00We got married to a normal person.

43:03We keep saying normal.

43:04I'm saying it in jest.

43:05I keep using the word normal, too.

43:07But I get what you're saying.

43:09It's somebody who hasn't been affected by all of this mess.

43:12Correct.

43:12Yeah.

43:13Who hasn't wasn't raised in this or didn't really know.

43:16And so I think that my point is that instead of I think I just tried to ignore it.

43:23Like, what was that?

43:24You know, and sometimes there aren't things you don't have an answer for everything.

43:28But I see now my ignoring, you know, not really grappling with what I believe or what was my experience

43:37at IHOPC, what was my experience growing up, what was my experience interning for this youth minister or being, you

43:42know, what do, like, what is this prophecy?

43:45What is that?

43:46Just sort of ignoring it.

43:48I believe for me personally, it primed me to continue in these high control, destructive groups or relationships.

43:59And that's true for when you're trying to heal, like, you're coming out like that.

44:03It's that's going to happen.

44:04But it really wasn't until in this work environment after I left.

44:09And it was just kind of a mess where I was thinking, like, you know, I haven't grappled with the

44:15quote unquote prophetic words I got.

44:17And I really had to go through and be like, this is not true.

44:21And it is it's depressing.

44:22I mean, it can be devastating to kind of go back and look at those old journals and what you

44:27believed and why it can be embarrassing.

44:31There's a lot of shame, but at the same time, because it that it kept me because I held on

44:37to that and didn't really face it.

44:39I believe it kept me in this destructive work environment for longer than I needed to and made a lot

44:45of excuses because because of that, like, well, we're going to get this payout.

44:49And, you know, like, look, we're helping people and God's going to use this and we're going to make a

44:53lot of money and, you know, for God's kingdom and blah, blah, blah.

44:59And, you know, really having me thinking, like, oh, maybe this really is maybe it was true and trying wanting

45:05it to be true, because it's like making sense of it.

45:08Like, maybe I went through all this because it is true.

45:10And looking back, it's like, well, no, for me, no, it wasn't.

45:16You know, there's a lot of personality, you know, unhealthy, you know, coping skills on my own and learning.

45:24And so I think something that I'm grateful for is it was hard going through it, but the same time

45:32leading me to, you know, I found your podcast, listening to other people's stories, and their healing journey, and really,

45:41through therapy, finding my own internal peace.

45:46And, again, it's not perfect, I obviously still have to work, but I want to say, not necessarily internal peace,

45:51but emotional regulation.

45:52I think that has been one of the most distressing things that, in my life, why even being attracted to

46:00these charismatic groups or a charismatic figure that says all the right thing, it's that, you know, I don't know

46:08how to regulate my own emotions.

46:09I need someone else, like, externally to do it.

46:12So, if I'm feeling low, that's what we would do.

46:15Let's go to a worship service, you know, this person's in town, and you have this wild worship, and you're

46:20crying and whatever, like dancing, blah, blah, blah, you get that high, you feel better.

46:24So, you associate that with, well, I just need to keep going, versus I feel low, it must be a

46:30demonic attack, I must have opened the door to the devil, Satan's attacking me, whatever.

46:34You know, I need to pray harder, I need to go back to this church, I need to ask for

46:39prayer, I need to have deliverance, I need to listen to this worship music over and over again.

46:43Instead of, like, let's, you know, it's all distractions, instead of, for me, it was like, let me, you know,

46:50you know what, maybe I am depressed, maybe I'm sad, you know, maybe I'm just tired.

46:55Like, there's a lot of that, too, where this doesn't have a deeper meaning, or this is some greater spiritual

47:01meaning.

47:03And, yeah, and I just, I do want to speak to people that might be in this position or sort

47:08of questioning that, you know, I really did look for people's stories, too, that they weren't like, I left a

47:14high-control church, and now I'm an atheist and hate God.

47:17Like, that was hard, I didn't want to hear that, like, and nothing against that for anyone.

47:24I wanted to hear stories of people that were able to either maintain a faith or, because I needed that.

47:31So, honestly, it was Dr. Hassan, Steve Hassan, who's, you know, went back to his Jewish faith or whatever.

47:38So, I'm like, okay, like, you can leave these destructive groups, but still, you know, have faith or something like

47:46that.

47:47The way you said that actually brings up another interesting point that could make a full podcast.

47:52It isn't just learning after you leave.

47:55When people leave, they feel like they suddenly have to learn everything or relearn everything, but they never stop and

48:02think about the unlearning part.

48:04You mentioned Dr. Stephen Hassan, how he connected with his faith.

48:07Well, that's something that you had to have unlearned before you could go there because you would never say that

48:14you should pay attention to how a Jewish person connected with their Jewish faith.

48:19When you're in this type of movement, you're like, I have to deconvert this Jewish person.

48:22He needs to come to my belief set.

48:24But the way that people connect with their faith, it can be healthy.

48:29And I understand that there are some logical and theological issues with this, depending on the religion.

48:35But the point I'm trying to make is this.

48:36There are certain things that you do have to unlearn because we have been trained in a very, very unhealthy

48:42way.

48:43Think of it like this.

48:44If you were in one of these hypervigilant churches with all the spiritual warfare, you go to the minister and

48:50you say, I feel really afraid.

48:52He would say something like, well, you're checked in your spirit or you have you have the demons are out

48:58to get you.

48:59What have you done?

49:00It's usually something that you have to do to conquer it.

49:03And so they put you into action because, quite frankly, one of the manipulation tools that is used, if you

49:10can engage the person into something active, they will not even critically think.

49:15They just go after the action.

49:17But what if this was your child that comes to you and says, Mom, I'm afraid?

49:22You would never say, well, you're checked in your spirit, little kid.

49:26You would say, well, why are you afraid?

49:28And you get them to stop and think about it.

49:31And so you have to unlearn what it even means to be afraid.

49:34What is causing the fear?

49:36Is it something that is legitimate?

49:38Is it a legitimate fear?

49:40Maybe it is spiritual.

49:41If you're a spiritual person, well, how do I know it's spiritual?

49:44What tells me that it is spiritual other than I'm simply afraid?

49:48Most people who are afraid, they would say, well, maybe it's dark and maybe I just watch a scary movie,

49:53something like this.

49:54Right.

49:55But you have to unlearn all of this training.

49:57And then some of it you do have to relearn, but some things you have to just totally throw out,

50:03unlearn this nonsense, throw it out.

50:05There isn't really a replacement for that kind of nonsense in some cases.

50:08No, it's interesting being a parent.

50:10You mentioned parenting.

50:13And there are times where I'll talk to my sisters and I'm like, my kids have no idea, you know,

50:19this is like, you know, if they're, I remember when my son, when he was, it was the summer school

50:26had ended and he was like, mom, I feel so like sad or depressed.

50:32I don't know.

50:34And I'm thinking, you know, I was talking to him.

50:37I was like, well, I mean, you're nostalgic.

50:39It's the, you're used to being around all your friends at school and it's the end of the school year.

50:44Now it's the summer.

50:45You know, I used to feel that way when I was a kid.

50:47And again, I'm not minimizing his feelings, but I'm also like not over spiritualizing it.

50:52Like, you know, for, it was for me where it was like, okay, well, the devil must be attacking you.

50:58There's a covenant of witches concentrating on you because you're so anointed.

51:01Or did you open a door?

51:03Is someone jealous of you?

51:05And now you're picking up on that jealousy.

51:07So it's always this like, you know, deeper meaning versus there is a level of peace in that.

51:14It's like, I'm human.

51:16This is a feeling.

51:17The feeling will pass.

51:20And that's that.

51:21And I think, like you're saying, there's a level of unlearning.

51:25I don't have to identify every little thing and have, you know, some spiritual root to it that it does

51:32take time.

51:33There's this really great book called Falling Upward written by a Catholic priest, Richard Rohr.

51:44And he talks about two halves of life, where you have these tools that you develop to get you to

51:51midlife, and they served you well.

51:53So you mentioned hypervigilance.

51:55I would say that tool served me very well.

51:58And I would argue that a lot of people in the charismatic movement have, who are hypervigilant, they call it

52:03discernment.

52:05But it's, it's honestly, it's hypervigilance.

52:07A lot of, you can see patterns, read the room.

52:10And I would say that hypervigilance did serve me well, like through my childhood up until midlife.

52:16But what I started to notice is in my professional life, and even in my marriage, it was actually very

52:22detrimental, the hypervigilance.

52:25You know, I'm reading into things that are not there, and then trying to, you know, adjust or whatever.

52:32And I just remember my husband being like, I can't with this.

52:36You know, he's very, I am who I am, you know, at this, there's not a deeper meaning, you know,

52:42I just have a bad day, like, you know, or the same thing at work, where it would lead me,

52:48like, just super stressful,

52:50or I would just read into a movement that my boss may have done or said, or a throwaway line,

52:56and then took it to an extreme.

52:58And then it ended up, it was just, it's, it's been detrimental to me.

53:02So, this book by Richard Rohr was so helpful, because he was saying the tools that get you to your

53:07midlife, you know, whatever, they served you, they got you here.

53:12It's time now, where you're noticing what's not helping you anymore, and might be a detriment, and the unlearning, he

53:19calls it falling upward.

53:20Sort of an unlearning of these old tools, thank you, you helped me get here, however, now I need to

53:27learn a new way, you know, of in your second half of life, and whatever that might look like.

53:33And so, for me, it has been, okay, this isn't serving me anymore, I need to find, you know, another

53:41way.

53:41And for the audience who's listening, Franny is no longer hyper-vigilant, she's hyper-focused, because the moment you mention

53:49Covenant of Wishes, I'm sitting here, I'm fighting back laughter, and I don't know how you kept from looking at

53:55me and laughing.

53:56I will be honest with the audience, if that's part of your indoctrination, you have to unlearn that thing, because

54:01that's one of the more absurd things that's out there.

54:05But, you know, there's so much more we could talk about.

54:08I feel like we've just skimmed the surface, but the end result of all of this, if you take nothing

54:13else from what we've said, it's simply this.

54:16You have to learn that moving on isn't healing.

54:20You have to heal and move on.

54:22You have to do both.

54:23And sometimes it's unlearning, sometimes it is relearning, sometimes it's learning something new.

54:29But for the most part, it's just simply re-evaluating.

54:32Back to the child who comes up and says, I'm scared, Mommy.

54:36What you do is you teach them to evaluate why they're scared.

54:39Why do you feel this way?

54:40And you mentioned therapy and therapists, and I'm with you.

54:44I do not recommend somebody go to a Christian therapist.

54:48I know I may offend some Christian therapists out there, but if you've been in a cult, unless you go

54:54to a Christian therapist that has strong cult experience, you will fail.

54:59And I've seen it fail time and time again.

55:01There are some that have it, and those probably are good ones.

55:04But if you can't find one that has cult experience, I would recommend to avoid it.

55:09But they will tell you the same thing.

55:10You have to evaluate what you're feeling and why you're feeling it, because nine times out of ten, it's something

55:17that they have put into your identity that's not even part of you in the first place.

55:21So much more we can talk about.

55:23We'll save it for the next episode.

55:25Thank you so much for doing this.

55:26Yeah, thank you.

55:27Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

55:31You can find us at william-branham.org.

55:33For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

55:39the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

56:15We'll see you next time.

56:45We'll see you next time.

Leaving vs Healing: How High Control Religion Follows You Into the Workplace | Frannie Nance | 716

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