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00:00Here's what I want to see, because I think he's ready to go.
00:03I want to see OBJ out there.
00:05He's still OBJ.
00:06He might not be as fast as he was at his prime.
00:08He's not, but he's still slick.
00:11He's got the moves, and he knows how to run these routes.
00:14And if he comes around for the Giants like I hope he does,
00:18that's going to change the team, too.
00:30Joining us right now on Shine Time to break down and preview the Giants and the Rams,
00:36legendary Giants, award-winning analyst, my great friend, my guy, Phil Simms.
00:43Phil, how are you?
00:44I'm doing well, Adam.
00:45There you go right away.
00:47Oh, yes.
00:48Oh, well, all these things, nice things.
00:50Come on.
00:51It's all good, though.
00:52I like your shirt.
00:53You know, you're still in that summer mode, and it makes you feel good.
00:56I do get a chance to listen to you a lot on the radio.
00:59You're spot-on with just about everything, so that's really cool.
01:02Because usually when I'm driving and I listen to the radio,
01:05somebody come on and talk, and I'll just go, that's stupid.
01:10Well, as long as I'm not getting that treatment from Phil Simms, I'm feeling good.
01:13And I hear these, well, you know, his quarterback percentage is just weak or his QBR,
01:17and as soon as I hear that, I punch the radio.
01:21Well, Phil, let's get into it, because I'm so excited for the Rams,
01:24and I'm so excited for the Giants.
01:26So I want to kind of start here with an overview,
01:28because the second the Giants hired John Harbaugh, I said, this is it.
01:34The perfect guy on the planet in terms of an adult, a championship coach, a tone setter.
01:42He was perfect in terms of a hire.
01:44And I thought on week one, everything I've loved forever about a John Harbaugh football team,
01:51that was on display.
01:53Toughness, taking a lead, the way they played in the trenches, smart football in the fourth quarter.
02:00Take us through what you saw for the first game under John Harbaugh.
02:04Well, you know, I did many games of his down there in Baltimore,
02:07so I always had a feel for who he is and what he does.
02:11And, you know, when he comes to the Giants, and I'll tell you what it was to me.
02:15It's just an organization that is really so tired of losing.
02:18They hire him, and his presence and what he does, his words, how you practice, all those things.
02:26It's great.
02:27So, I shouldn't be surprised, and we shouldn't be surprised about that,
02:31that he has such a great effect on the players.
02:35And, you know, Adam, I was at a lot of practices.
02:37I went down to Miami and watched some scrimmage and played the preseason game and all that.
02:42And I'm telling you, I never had one player come up to me and complain about anything.
02:48You know why?
02:49Because they could say, wow, we are much better now with what coaching staff and the head coach we had.
02:55And my last thing about it is this.
02:57You know you've got the right guy when he's going to address the team for the first time.
03:02And as he walks in, everybody just sits up straight.
03:07And he says the right words to capture them.
03:11And he's very consistent.
03:13They practice hard.
03:15The players accept it.
03:17And the last thing, the Giants, look at it.
03:21The last three years, they have rebuilt this team.
03:24And it's bigger.
03:25It's faster.
03:27This past year's draft was awesome.
03:29But even back three years ago, they had a really good draft.
03:32Might not be any superstars.
03:33But it's a lot of guys still starting for the team.
03:37So, you know, again, put it all into words.
03:40I'm trying.
03:40But they hired the right man, no doubt.
03:43Without question.
03:44And I think everything you're saying makes sense.
03:45And we knew it.
03:46And we thought it.
03:47And we saw it this past Sunday night.
03:50And, you know, you know this better than anyone, the impact that a great head coach can have on the
03:55quarterback.
03:56And, listen, I love Jackson Dart.
03:58Loved him in college, the draft process, when the Giants drafted him.
04:02I think there were things he needed to learn, right?
04:05Young player, how to be available, make the right reads, right decisions.
04:09He's smart.
04:10He's athletic.
04:11He can make every single throw.
04:12He's got some zip on the fastball.
04:15Phil, I thought that was an A-plus performance on Sunday night.
04:20And I can't wait to see what round two is going to be against the Rams.
04:26Let's start with what he did against Dallas.
04:28What worked so well for Jackson Dart?
04:31Well, the things that worked well for him last year.
04:34Let's see.
04:34Somebody's open.
04:35I don't miss.
04:36You know, my favorite phrase of all people come in the NFL, quarterbacks, can you hit all the ordinary throws?
04:44Can you hit them?
04:45And there's about 15 of them in every game for all these quarterbacks, maybe 20, and you just can't miss.
04:51And you had a – I was – how to explain it?
04:56I wasn't crazy about Jackson Dart.
04:59I will say this, his personality, his talent, everything is much better than I expected.
05:07He does, like I said, the throwing, he can throw with power.
05:11He has great touch if he needs that.
05:13He's a really good decision maker.
05:15We'll go into that, what they do.
05:17And his – he's a quarterback.
05:20I mean, the players love him.
05:22And he knows how to react and act with all the guys, and that's just one of the reasons why
05:26that when he talks, they all listen.
05:28So, Jackson Dart, man, he has been a big surprise for me at how well he's played, and that was
05:34a great opening game to have against the Cowboys.
05:37And you reference the coaching staff.
05:39I mean, they put together a terrific and diverse and dynamic staff, which matters to me in terms of the
05:46offensive coordinator and the guys around Matt Nagy.
05:49We could talk Roman.
05:51We could talk Callahan.
05:52How does that help someone like Jackson Dart?
05:55Well, it really helps.
05:57One, we got a guy – and when you talk about Greg Roman, he's like one of the greatest run
06:02designers and everything.
06:04I mean, he started the Colin Kaepernick give-and-go or whatever you want to call it.
06:08He was out there in San Francisco, man, and everybody's going, oh, how are we going to deal with this?
06:13And so, he's always going to be there to design runs, mainly a lot of quarterback runs, I would think.
06:19And we saw one or two of them.
06:20I can't remember how we saw last week or last Sunday night, but when he did run Jackson Dart, it
06:26worked really well.
06:27And Matt Nagy, man, I'll give him a lot of credit.
06:30He held back a lot of just his – what he wanted to do in the game with Jackson Dart,
06:35and we kind of saw all that.
06:36And by that, I mean they really go into the intellect of the quarterback.
06:42I don't know if Jackson Dart ran one play where he didn't have to check, tell everybody here, uh-oh,
06:48this, that, let's go to this play, and there you go.
06:51I mean, it's work.
06:52And they even – I've heard John Harbaugh talk about it, and Matt Nagy talk about it, that he can
06:58handle it all, so they don't worry about putting too much on his plate.
07:02So, it was an unbelievable debut for darts under Harbaugh and Nagy and Roman and Callahan and company.
07:09Now, the ball game in Los Angeles, Phil, I think it's going to be a totally different beast from the
07:14perspective, you know, just like last Sunday night, nationally televised game, Monday night football.
07:19And I know what happened in Australia, I frankly don't give a damn.
07:24I still think the Rams are a sensational, loaded, brilliantly coached football team.
07:29So, what's the key for Jackson Dart in terms of duplicating what he did against the Cowboys?
07:36Can he do that on Monday nights against the Rams?
07:40I think it's possible.
07:42There's many things to that, Adam.
07:44Just the one thing, when he hands it off to the running backs, can they – can the running game
07:48be where they can always keep doing it and trying to catch the Rams by surprise a little bit?
07:53You know, Cam Scadaboo, a guy they drafted, I think, in the fourth round, you know, last year.
08:00I thought, why are they drafting him?
08:02I mean, come on.
08:03You know, he's just a rammer.
08:05He's this – he is everything but that.
08:07You know, he's got great – so, that's something to look at.
08:10Yeah, and Najee Harris, I don't know who all is going to be the running back group, but this giant
08:15offensive line, it seems like we've talked about it for years.
08:18It's much better.
08:20When I look at the Rams, you know, they're – I don't look at it right now after what I
08:25saw over in Australia because that game, I would say this and kind of mean it.
08:32Of course I mean it.
08:33They were terrible.
08:34Yeah, awful.
08:35I mean, it was like, what the hell are we doing?
08:38I didn't see any designs that I really liked, and when they do something, you know, San Francisco, they know
08:44this team well.
08:45They were all over it, and, you know, it's – Matt Stafford, he throwing the ball.
08:53God, I was like, wow, is his arm hurt?
08:55Does it hurt him?
08:56He never – I don't think I saw but one or two passes where he just let it go with
09:01power and got it in there.
09:02So, I'm sure they're, you know, going to jump out there and try to change everything and make the Giants
09:09go back to what a lot of people are.
09:10But I think this is going to be a really physical, tough, very emotional game for both teams.
09:15So, it's going to be a fun watch.
09:17I want to hit on what you just said about the Rams because, look, I was one of those preseason
09:21– and still believe it, by the way.
09:23I took the cheese on the Rams, right?
09:25Great roster, great coaching.
09:27Look, Kyle Shanahan is phenomenal, right?
09:29Kyle Shanahan wins any game he coaches.
09:32Going against Sean McVay, I'm never surprised.
09:34How they won and how they kicked the Rams' ass, that to me was stunning.
09:40I did not see that coming.
09:41So, did we over-evaluate the Rams?
09:46Or do you expect the Rams to come out and be salty and brilliantly coached under Sean McVay?
09:52How do you think the Rams respond to what we all saw week one?
09:56Well, you know, Adam, I'll tell you, it's – I don't want to over-say it and say it's panic
10:02time when you lose the opening game of the year.
10:05It's like, you know, you just go – and I had a couple of them with Bill Parcells.
10:09And we're like, are we ever going to win a game?
10:13You know, the tension – we lost to the Dallas Cowboys in 86 down in Dallas on the last Herschel
10:20Walker run or whatever.
10:23And we came back and it was the roughest, most tension-filled week of my career.
10:30And Parcells was nuts.
10:32I'm like, we got to do – he was – I could tell.
10:35He wasn't, like, yelling at us, but they were pushing us.
10:37And we won that second game, and that's when, you know, the dumping the Gatorade on Bill Parcells came around.
10:43Because he was so rough on us that they go, they got to pay him back.
10:49But, yeah, they're a good team.
10:50But, you know, this Giant team, it matches up well.
10:54I talked about the O-line.
10:56The defensive front for the Giants, it's the real deal.
11:00I mean, so Matt Stafford getting out and, you know, his greatest strength is when they move the puck and
11:05get him outside.
11:06I mean, he is dangerous as they come in being a quarterback in the NFL.
11:12But this Giant defensive front, they got speed.
11:15And as somebody said something to me, I said, listen, they got dudes now.
11:19Yeah.
11:20You know, they got dudes in there.
11:22And they got a lot of them.
11:24And all of a sudden, last year, everybody was complaining to me.
11:26Well, Abdul Carter, and I go, those last, I don't know how many, four or five games,
11:32I was like, how do you like him now?
11:34How does it look?
11:35And even against the Dallas Cowboys, he was absolutely just trying to destroy everything.
11:42So I'm hoping to see that again with the Giants.
11:44You know, I'm not a broadcaster anymore.
11:46I can root for them all I want.
11:50So it's going to be fun.
11:51What's the challenge, Phil, of the DBs going up against Puka Nakua and Devontae Adams?
11:56Because you nailed it.
11:57And I agree with you.
11:58And I think the Rams line has gotten better.
12:00You know, and they can run it with a couple of backs with Williams and Corum.
12:04But Nakua and Adams, to me, are special.
12:08What's the challenge for the Giants against those guys?
12:11To make it like it happened over in Australia, can we push the pocket enough to make Matt Stafford
12:17where he can't step into every throw and just throw a dart in between defenders or in tight coverage?
12:23That is huge.
12:24And running the ball, when I look at the Rams, it's right up the middle.
12:28That's where they have success with both of those runners.
12:31They double-teamed two guys inside.
12:33And the good thing I did see in Australia was those running backs, man, they hammered in there.
12:42It's full steam ahead.
12:44And it's like, this is my last carry of my life.
12:46By God, I'm going to go.
12:48And they've done that.
12:49That's how they're taught.
12:51But I think the Giants will react to the quarterback.
12:54I'd be very surprised they play a lot of man-to-man.
12:57They're going to, you know, everybody now, this new thing.
13:00And I'll tell you, it's a pain in the butt for quarterbacks.
13:02You're covering this guy.
13:04Let him go.
13:04Somebody else will pick him up.
13:05Let me go over here.
13:07And the Giants, they're pretty good at that, too, on the defensive side.
13:11So, that's, you know, I think the Giants got a lot of matches where I go.
13:16I really have faith in them and that they can win if some of these things like you and I
13:20are talking about come around for them.
13:23So, on Monday nights, I think the Giants, who I thought, you know, preseason, we'll get into your take in
13:29a second,
13:30going to win nine, ten games.
13:32Like, I thought the Giants were going to be in the mix for the playoffs this year.
13:35I didn't pick them to the playoffs.
13:36I still think they're going to be in the mix for the playoffs.
13:39I think it's a tough spot for the Giants.
13:40I think Sean McVay is going to have them fired up.
13:43I think he's a fabulous coach.
13:45I think they're going to be salty.
13:46It's a Monday night football game.
13:48It's in Los Angeles.
13:49I like the Rams to win.
13:52I think it will be a great game, but I could see it going a couple of scores late, like
13:5730 to 20 variety, 31-20.
14:01I think the Rams are the better team.
14:03Who do you like on Monday night and why?
14:06And an ebb and flow when it comes to the game.
14:09Well, I understand what you're saying.
14:12I mean, I think 90% of all people across America are thinking the same thing.
14:16And just what I kind of said, you know, the emotional advantage goes to the Rams because they lost.
14:22And, you know, sometimes you get a little satisfied when you win a game like the Giants did.
14:26But, you know, not you and I, I can't remember if we even talked about it the first thing.
14:31Is John Harbaugh, I just will be surprised that the Giants are not just really ready to go.
14:38And everything that we saw last week, there's going to be more this week that they're going to show that
14:43they haven't shown at any practice or any preseason game or in that first game.
14:48They have a lot of ammunition there.
14:50And probably the one thing that does worry me a little is the wide receiver group.
14:56Malik Neighbors, that Isaiah Lightley, wow, you know what?
15:00I didn't, Adam, I didn't realize how nimble he is.
15:04You know, and I watch the Ravens play almost every game of the year every year.
15:08And I just don't remember him being, but with the Giants, man, he looks like, and I think he will
15:14be, a big part of their past.
15:18So, you know, there's a lot there.
15:20That, and I do think that the, how many Giants fans will be in the stands out there in L
15:26.A., it's another one.
15:27But I like them.
15:30I have a good feeling they can hang in there with them the whole time.
15:34I do.
15:35And if they lose, I think they would lose by one score.
15:38I don't think it'll be two.
15:40And whatever we saw in offense, like I said, it's going to be totally different out there in L.A.
15:45And we'll see how it works.
15:47Malik Neighbors, a healthy Malik Neighbors.
15:49You play the position of quarterback brilliantly in New York with the pressure cooker, all of it, Phil.
15:55What does someone like Malik Neighbors mean to Jackson Dart?
15:59It means, you know, Adam, it's hard to explain.
16:02It's, one, glad to have him back makes you feel better as a quarterback when you've got your best receiver
16:07out there getting close to being full speed 100%.
16:10But also what it does, too, it's easy sometimes.
16:14In other words, you're going to go, you'll see the coverage, you go to him, and he's open.
16:18I mean, wide open.
16:19So you don't have to make the perfect great throw down the field.
16:22And also, you know, you hear it on telecast.
16:25I thought Chris Collinsworth did a really good job of explaining a few of those things.
16:29But the defense changes when they see Malik Neighbors.
16:33And here's what I want to see, because I think he's ready to go.
16:36I want to see OBJ out there.
16:39He's still OBJ.
16:40He might not be as fast as he was at his prime.
16:42He's not.
16:43But he's still slick.
16:45He's got the moves, and he knows how to run these routes.
16:47And if he comes around for the Giants like I hope he does, that's going to change the team, too.
16:54Phil, I want to get your take on Monday Night Football, because you played in an era where
16:58Monday Night Football was everything.
17:00Now, Monday Night Football, to me, is still supremely special.
17:03And, you know, it's an ESPN game.
17:06It's Buck.
17:06It's Aikman.
17:07It's, you know, bright lights.
17:08You know, for this specific game, it's Los Angeles.
17:10It's New York.
17:12I know we have Thursday night.
17:13I know we have the whole Sunday package Sunday night.
17:16What's it like as a Giant playing on Monday Night Football?
17:22It's awesome.
17:23I mean, I don't know what to say.
17:24It really is.
17:26And it was special.
17:27And I think it probably still is special, the Monday Night game, you know, because it's
17:32not like Sunday night where we've seen football all day long.
17:35You're sitting there all day.
17:36At least I do.
17:37And I'm sure you do the same thing.
17:38I'm sitting there.
17:39Damn, when's this game going to start?
17:41I mean, how long do I got to sit here?
17:42So, and it's, you know, even the coaches know it, the way they talk to you, the way
17:50we prepare.
17:51And that one extra day of preparation, I'm going to tell you, that was a big deal, too.
17:55It was, there was always a few things that would come in late in the week that I would
18:00see as a player and go, oh, my gosh, this is great.
18:02This is like an absolute hundred percenter.
18:06Why don't we put this in early in the week?
18:07But, you know, you get these things, and it's just an awful, awesome feeling because
18:13the stands are usually really full, and they either love you if you're playing for the
18:17Giants or they hate you dearly, if it's the Washington Redskins or Commanders now, the
18:23Philadelphia Eagles or the Cowboys, any of those teams we had to play two times a year.
18:28Phil, you lived the Jackson Darts experience.
18:32Obviously, a good-looking first-round pick.
18:35Everyone in New York love you.
18:37You represented hope.
18:38You had the big expectations.
18:41So, I'm curious, from your perspective, what was the hardest part of it, and what advice
18:47would you give Jackson Dart?
18:49Well, I've actually talked to him and interviewed him a couple times.
18:52We've had some good laughs and good talks and everything.
18:55And, you know, he gets it.
18:57I mean, that's the great thing about him.
18:58I mean, he's got, you know, nobody ever said I had swagger at him.
19:03Okay?
19:04I mean, this guy, he just oozes it.
19:06And I'll tell you, I kind of worried when John Harbaugh took over.
19:10I said, man, they might not like this whole Jackson Dart thing.
19:13But, no, it's the opposite.
19:14They don't like it.
19:15They love it.
19:16Yeah.
19:17Because they see he's got this personality that you want to see in your quarterback.
19:21You know, trust me, I got it.
19:25And I think, too, and I've heard John Harbaugh say it.
19:27He goes, and you've heard it, too, he's just more talented than you think.
19:34And it's like running.
19:35Hey, he runs faster in the NFL than he did in college.
19:39I mean, he just, when he puts it down and he's slick, you know, he just worms, you know,
19:45works his way through there.
19:46He is a really sneaky, good runner.
19:50And the arm, it is big-time NFL, no matter what you want.
19:55Accuracy, power, touch, he's got it all.
19:59Fascinating to get your big-picture take on the Giants.
20:01I told you mine in the beginning of this conversation.
20:04I said before the season, just miss the playoffs.
20:07Meaningful football game through 16, 17, 18 weeks.
20:12Win 9, 10 games.
20:13I love Coach Harbaugh, absolutely love him.
20:17And I think the talent's there.
20:18And I think there are some soft spots, like week three through six,
20:22that they can navigate and win the game.
20:24They're supposed to win things they haven't done in a long time.
20:27I know you never overreact to week one, so give us the honest take here.
20:31What's your read, big-picture this season on the Giants?
20:38Well, I almost want to say that nine or ten wins would be – that would be awesome.
20:44Because, you know, they're coming from – you know, I'm sorry to say it this way,
20:47but they're coming from hell.
20:48Yeah.
20:49And now we're trying to go upwards.
20:51And I think they have a chance there.
20:53And, you know, too, Adam, and everybody out there that listens to this,
20:57winning a game in the NFL is unbelievably hard.
21:01And, I mean, it really is – just like last night after you were watching
21:05or whenever this comes out, just said, there's Josh Allen, the Bills,
21:09scoring the whole time.
21:10But I never felt comfortable they were going to truly win the game
21:13because next thing you know it's turned around and it's a whole different outcome.
21:18So your talks of winning nine, that might be enough to get you in the playoffs too.
21:24Listen.
21:25For John Harbaugh to win whatever number of games it takes,
21:29and if they make the playoffs, it is a year that is – you just got to go,
21:33wow, this was a great thing, and what are we going to do next year?
21:37You know, so that's a good problem to have.
21:40From a Rams perspective, what was your preseason prediction?
21:45How good, how great do you think the Rams are going to be?
21:50And if the Giants go into L.A. and beat them,
21:54are we talking about hitting the panic button?
21:59Well, yeah, you're going to hit the panic button.
22:01Everybody will.
22:01The Rams organization will.
22:03The players will.
22:03If you're 0-2, you're like, oh, my God,
22:05it's going to take forever to dig out of this hole.
22:08So I'm sure it's going to be because of this and what we're saying.
22:12That means the game is going to be rough, emotional, and it might come –
22:18of course, and I think it's going to even out.
22:20I just think the Giants, their feelings and practice and all that,
22:25they're ready to do this battle.
22:26But once you win it, you just go – it's just awesome,
22:31especially when you're playing a team like the Rams that could be desperate.
22:35Well, I'm sure they're pretty desperate.
22:38And the Giants, no.
22:40Miles Garrett's out.
22:41Okay, so that's some good news.
22:43So it's going to be a close, really fun game to watch, Adam.
22:47Big picture in the NFC, NFC West.
22:50How do you stack those teams?
22:52Seattle, San Francisco, Rams.
22:56I mean, those are elite teams, phenomenal coaches.
22:58Like, you want to talk about – because I know you respect great coaches
23:02more than anyone.
23:03McDonald, Shanahan, McVay.
23:05I mean, those guys are studs.
23:07What do you see when you look at that division?
23:10Well, you know, and I never say things like this, but you know what?
23:13I did play in that.
23:14It was called the NFC East.
23:16Yep.
23:16And so every week it was just, dang, we got who?
23:20Here we go.
23:21And it's hard to stack them.
23:23You know, I did the – I didn't really – I shouldn't say this,
23:26but I just said, oh, the Rams will win the whole thing just because I didn't
23:29feel like sitting there and doing something.
23:33But you look at Seattle, that's – hey, how about Drew Locke?
23:39Let's get off of that just for one second.
23:41How good did Drew Locke play in that game when Darnold went out?
23:46Oh, my.
23:46It was unbelievable.
23:49He didn't make a mistake.
23:50Nope.
23:50But that's another thing.
23:52But, yeah, just that group.
23:54I don't know.
23:55I still would take Seattle.
23:57They're what everybody wants to be.
23:59They're really big.
24:00They're really fast.
24:01They're well-coached.
24:01And they got a fan base that's just a pain in your rear when you're out there
24:05playing their home games.
24:06And Kyle Shanahan, you can't say enough about him.
24:09That team he put on against the Rams over there in Australia, they were fresh.
24:14They were smart.
24:14They were eager.
24:15They played hard.
24:17And they dominated the game.
24:20So – and we look at Arizona.
24:22Ooh, we got Jeremiah Love over there.
24:24But Jacoby Brissett, you know, don't sit there and go, oh, they need a quarterback.
24:29No, they don't.
24:30We'll see.
24:30Jacoby Brissett, since he's been in that starting position last year in his first game,
24:35he is an excellent thrower of the football.
24:37And he's going to give them chances to win games that nobody thought they would.
24:41Phil, you're the best.
24:42We always appreciate the time.
24:44Can't wait for the Giants and the Rams on Monday Night Football.
24:47And we'll talk to you again real soon.
24:49Well, that'll be great.
24:51Yeah.
24:51It'll be – I'll be nervous all day Monday.
24:53Like, let's go.
24:54Come on.
24:54When are we going to start this damn game?
24:55We got to –
24:58You're going to be feeling it like you're playing in it, Phil.
25:00Oh, yeah.
25:01I'll stand up a few times.
25:02Everyone, like, you know, if I get a little upset, I'll stand up.
25:04Come on.
25:05Gosh dang it.
25:06Oh.
25:06And, of course, since it's a different world for me now working, I keep the computer.
25:11I got notes.
25:12I'm writing notes the whole game.
25:14And I got to stop it because when all of it's over, you know, the notes are worthless.
25:22But it is a lot of fun.
25:23You know, one night, one day, maybe you come out here on a Sunday.
25:27I'd love that.
25:28You would love it.
25:30I got six or seven games up on the screen, the big one in the middle, and, man, we tear
25:37it up.
25:37It's awesome.
25:39That's our guy, the great Phil Simms.
25:40That right there, that's the show.
25:42If you missed any portion of the show, just do what I do and go to our YouTube page and
25:45watch it over and over and over again at Shine Time.
25:48We'll see you tomorrow on Shine Time.
25:50No surprise.
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