00:00Mike Tannenbaum joins us from ESPN, former NFL general manager.
00:04Mike, thanks for joining us.
00:06Good morning, guys.
00:07All right.
00:08Would you have picked Deshaun Watson to start?
00:12I would not have.
00:14Look, Todd Munkin has more information than I do,
00:17but based on what we've seen over the last six years,
00:22my leaning would be to go with a younger, ascending quarterback
00:25based on what he did in college and a little bit what we saw last year,
00:29which was far from perfect, but obviously Todd Munkin saw something,
00:33be it a practice or scrimmages, that made him decide otherwise.
00:37Why?
00:38They've talked a lot about operations, and one guy knowing the offense better,
00:44that being Deshaun Watson, but neither of them are going to play
00:47in the Thursday game against New England.
00:49I know it's a meaningless preseason game, meaningless in quotes,
00:52because my thought is, Mike, that, well, if you don't know operations that well,
00:57the best way to get learning of that is, or to learn that is to be in a huddle
01:01in an actual game setting, even if it's a meaningless, quote-unquote,
01:04preseason game.
01:05Why isn't he playing that?
01:07Yeah, especially, you know, for young quarterbacks, be it Taylor Green,
01:11Dylan Gabriel, Shador, whoever.
01:13Yeah, every rep's a good rep.
01:15You know, we're seeing more and more in the NFL,
01:16the trend of controlled scrimmages and practices,
01:19and I think coaches are putting more and more stock in, you know,
01:23when you see, you know, ones versus ones in those situations,
01:25but it's a fair point, you know, if you're concerned about experience and reps,
01:29you know, New England's the next opportunity.
01:31I know that every dynamic between coach and organization can be different
01:36depending on where you are, and then people like us will talk about function
01:39or dysfunction.
01:41In this case, you look at the contract, you know how they pushed money forward
01:45all these years when it comes to Deshaun Watson for cap relief
01:49and other ways, but do you think this is something coming down from above,
01:54or do you think Todd Munkin, his first head coaching job,
01:58has complete autonomy over this decision?
02:03You know, I'm not sure, but I can tell you the process would go back
02:06to the hiring situation, which is talking about roster 53,
02:10who's on the roster, game day, you know, 48, which guys are addressing,
02:14and then, you know, obviously who's playing the game should always be up to the coach.
02:18With that said, like, it has to be collateral between the owner, the GM,
02:22and as you mentioned with his cap charge, it's probably prohibitive for him
02:26not to be on the roster, but I would be surprised if any GM or owner said,
02:31hey, you've got to play player X or Y, that's a heavy lift.
02:34I mean, that's what you have your head coach there.
02:36He's in front of the team every day.
02:37He needs to hold the players accountable,
02:39so I think it's hard to have sustainability if you have it otherwise.
02:43Now, with that said, you know, being in that seat a couple times,
02:46you know, you'd have candid conversations this time of year about,
02:49hey, what do you see and why, and, you know,
02:51where do we think we're going to be in, you know, six games, 12 games next year?
02:56You're constantly having those conversations.
02:58So, obviously, there's all the stuff on the field and in joint practice,
03:03and we're talking to Mike Tannenbaum from ESPN on the hotline right now,
03:07but I think you would have some wisdom into this.
03:09What happens when everything on the peripheral is so rough,
03:15when you have what could be this dissension between the player and the fans?
03:20Can that stuff ever weigh in, or the mental outlook of a quarterback
03:24who, quite frankly, Mike, on Saturday looked like he was wounded?
03:29It seemed like the moment was too big for him.
03:33Yeah, those are all fair points, and certainly you talk about that,
03:36and that's why, you know, you have medical, you know, you have mental health,
03:40you have all these other sort of like supporting areas of the organization,
03:43and, you know, I always define being a GM as the point guard of information.
03:47Let's get everything, you know, be it the agent, salary cap, again,
03:52physical health, mental health, whatever it may be, and say, okay, what's best for us?
03:56You know, how do we win games and keep moving forward
03:58and keep developing players and, you know, win for today and develop for tomorrow?
04:02So, of course, you've got to keep all those factors, you know, into play,
04:07and then ultimately it comes down to who gives us the best chance to win.
04:11And, you know, if you want to give the Browns benefit of the doubt today,
04:14maybe there's something that Todd Buckingham knows
04:16that he just doesn't want to share, that he feels strongly that,
04:19for whatever reason, Deshaun Watson probably gives them, you know,
04:23the best chance to win.
04:23I have made the case that this could be really beneficial for Shador Sanders.
04:28I know it must be crushing not to win a quarterback competition
04:31that you feel like you've been right-hanging in there with,
04:33and then he outperformed him on Saturday.
04:36With that said, is there part of this that could be a positive outlook
04:41that he still is probably going to get an opportunity
04:44and maybe that brand-new offensive line and all those young weapons
04:49have a chance to maybe gel, and that could happen a little bit later
04:53when he would get the opportunity?
04:57Yeah, if Shador is somebody I represented, I'd say,
05:00hey, look, 64 quarterbacks in our game last year.
05:02Like, it's overwhelmingly probable you will play.
05:05So, you know, the bad news is, you know, when the job,
05:09the worst news would be is you're not prepared to go in
05:11when you get your, you know, number called.
05:13So, be it for, you know, play of skill players, offensive line, Deshaun,
05:18like, it's overwhelmingly likely you'll play this year.
05:21Be ready to go.
05:22So, is there any trade value for Shador Sanders?
05:27Good question.
05:28You know, I think there would be.
05:29I mean, there's enough good tape going back to Colorado,
05:31and, you know, look, last year was up and down like any young quarterback.
05:35I've always been a believer in him because I think you look at the physical skill set,
05:39there's a lot to work with.
05:40So, if I'm Cleveland, I don't let him leave.
05:43You know, I want to see what we can get out of him ourselves.
05:46So, even though there could be, I'd be extremely hesitant to trade him.
05:51I would, too.
05:52The only reason I ask is because there were a lot of people who a couple weeks ago
05:55got in and go, man, if he doesn't win the job, then he should be traded.
05:58He should demand a trade or anything like that.
05:59And I'm like, I don't really know what the market is, Mike.
06:02I really wouldn't know.
06:04Well, the same thing, I guess, I would ask for Dylan Gabriel.
06:06Like, he should play on Thursday.
06:07Is there a market for Dylan Gabriel at all?
06:09Because there's been conversations whether or not the organization really wanted him
06:13or he was a Kevin Stefanski pick last year
06:15before they had ended up taking Shador Sanders.
06:18Yeah, I mean, that's always been, you know, the logical landing spot, right?
06:22If it doesn't work out there, does he go to Atlanta
06:24where they would have three left-handed quarterbacks with Penix and Tua?
06:28Dylan Gabriel played well in last year's preseason.
06:31You know, he's small by NFL standards, but very accurate, quick release.
06:35So, Thursday night's a big audition for him, be it, you know, with the Browns
06:38or 31 other teams.
06:40Should we be in the market for other veteran quarterbacks who might not be cut
06:44but could be traded because I think a lot of us are looking forward to 2027
06:48and thinking, man, any bit of draft capital that you have to go and get a quarterback
06:53to hopefully fix this thing is going to be needed for getting about 2026.
06:58Yeah, I don't know what purpose that would serve.
07:01I'd love to see what Talon Green does.
07:02I remember watching him in the Senior Bowl,
07:04and he's a big, strong athlete who can throw the ball far,
07:08and he's fast, and there's a lot to work with with him,
07:12and I'd be intrigued to see what we could do with him before, you know,
07:16going with, like, a veteran because, again, you know, again,
07:18it's very likely that they'll be drafting a quarterback high next year.
07:22I know you've got to go, but just one more thing.
07:25I know you traded for Tim Tebow back when Tebow mania was a thing,
07:29and you see the numbers any time Shador gets talked about.
07:33He has such a loud, loyal fan base that is hovering,
07:39especially on social media, around every comment made.
07:43Do you see any similarities in that?
07:46Is that something that can be tough for an organization to navigate,
07:50having somebody that popular but who may not be ready at this point of his career?
07:57Well, you know, certainly when you draft a player
07:58or acquire them the way we do it, Tim,
08:01you should be prepared and understand what, you know,
08:04they may bring, you know, from, you know, a popularity standpoint.
08:08But, again, at the end of the day, if you're managing the process well,
08:11it should be about this is a ruthless meritocracy.
08:14Who gives us the best chance to win, and every decision should flow from there,
08:18and, you know, hopefully that's what the Browns did yesterday.
08:21Mike, thank you very much for the time.
08:22All the best.
08:24All right.
08:24Thanks so much, guys.
08:25Mike Tannenbaum, ESPN, former NFL general manager on the Wise Heart Right.
08:29We make a right call, Kyle Wright Hotline.
08:31Boy, that term he threw in at the end.
08:32The NFL is a ruthless meritocracy, and yet we have fans here that do not believe
08:40that the person who won out won on the merits.
08:45I mean, I...
08:45Well, because they saw what they saw.
08:47They have eyes.
08:48But they have not been there every day.
08:50I know that, Anthony, but the only chance they get is there, and you're with guys who
08:54are going to go professional in something other than sports, and you could say he was playing
08:59with those guys on his own team, but I'm sorry.
09:01Is the job of a franchise quarterback not to elevate the play of everyone else around him?
09:05I'm sorry.
09:05Is the job of a franchise quarterback not the job to elevate the play of everyone else around him?
09:09And he didn't do that.
09:10In fact, it made everybody look worse.
09:12Because he's not a franchise quarterback, and they can't believe they keep shoving
09:16this albatross out there in front of their eyes, which only insults their intelligence
09:21as football fans.
09:22And I'm not talking as Browns fans, because Northeast Ohio people know football, and this
09:26is terrible.
09:27You can say whatever you want to about operations and bleepy football, but it's like, hey,
09:31he might know what's in the huddle, but what does he do after he gets out of the huddle?
09:34Turns the ball over, drops the ball, can't throw it, can't do anything, and freaks out
09:39when the fans are on his ass.
09:40Did you find it at all interesting that it was such a reversal, like Deshaun looked
09:47very comfortable against Chicago, was on the road, but he had outplayed Shador, but then
09:54in this game where he's at home and going up against worse competition, he looked like
09:58he couldn't play the position.
09:58And we'll have a two-quarterback system then.
10:01We'll play one quarterback on the road, and we'll play one quarterback at home.
10:04I just think it was so obvious that he was mentally, mentally not up for it.
10:08And I don't know how they could possibly build that back, but Todd Bunkendale, to choose
10:14him as the starter, to say he won on the merits, means he thinks he can.
10:18Did he play exceedingly better in regular season games on the road in his 19 games that
10:23he's had with the Cleveland Browns?
10:24I don't remember him playing well anywhere.
10:25In his 19 games over five years now.
10:26I guess the second half in Baltimore.
10:29I guess the second half in Baltimore.
10:30No, we've hung our hat on that one before, haven't we?
10:32The Cincinnati game that he got injured, I had forgotten about, but I've seen some people
10:37in his camp talk about how well he was playing in that game.
10:42I don't remember much about that game at all.
10:46He had a good game against Arizona a few years ago.
10:48I don't.
10:49It's so funny.
10:50Listen to the sentences that are coming out of our mouths.
10:52I'm sorry.
10:53So much of his ear has been forgettable.
10:54I'm glad somebody can remember stuff because we need somebody to chronicle these things.
11:01I, and I had one foot out the door on a lot of those, a lot of those games.
11:04To be honest, I don't remember a lot of them.
11:09What did I say yesterday?
11:10It was a crazy sentence.
11:12Do you remember that, Owen?
11:13What the hell did I say?
11:14I go, I can't believe I just said that.
11:16What was it?
11:17I think it was that you said Deshaun Watson is still going to be the starter.
11:20Yeah, but it was something else that I just couldn't believe that I was saying.
11:24And here we are going, oh, that game three years ago against Arizona, that was something.
11:28He was 15 to 17 against the Bengals.
11:31Until he got hurt?
11:32For 128 yards.
11:35Maybe he can recapture that magic.
11:37I don't even know how that's possible.
11:38I bet he can't.
11:39I don't even know how that's possible.
11:40I'm looking at that going that that's got to be a mistake.
11:45If he goes out there and he plays exceedingly well in the first two road games, he won't be booed.
11:53He won't be booed, right?
11:54When he comes back?
11:56Yeah, he'll be booed.
11:58You sure?
11:59Yeah.
11:59Okay.
12:01Maybe it's just wishful thinking.
12:06Owen, would he be booed?
12:08If he goes, if they're 2-0 and they come back home, are they really going to boo him at
12:12home?
12:12Yeah, he's going to get booed.
12:15I don't think you go and make the comments that you make in the locker room and make it personal.
12:21You make it personal with the fan base.
12:23And as much as I think fans want to see him win, it might be a Bronx boo.
12:28But he's going to get booed.
12:31Yeah.
12:31And no one really thinks he's going to go 2-0 either.
12:34I didn't grow up here, but I've lived here almost 20 years now.
12:37I don't think you walk into town and call somebody out in Cleveland and then not get it back.
12:44I don't think you do that in any town.
12:47Cleveland, Ohio, Mayberry, North Carolina.
12:48I don't know.
12:49I've been to some other places where they just kind of let the water roll off the ducks back.
12:54That ain't happening here.
12:55Well, sports is very important.
12:56The Browns are very important.
12:57Football is very important here.
12:59You're the quarterback of the football team.
13:01You call out the fans like that, the fans are going to call you out back.
13:04Now, if you go down there and you beat Tampa Bay, maybe some people are going to boo him.
13:09If he plays poorly when he came back home, then people are going to boo his face off, certainly.
13:13But if they're 2-0, I just don't know if they're going to boo him in player introductions.
13:16Well, they're not going to cheer him, Ken.
13:18No.
13:19I didn't say that.
13:20I didn't say cheer him.
13:21I just said, I don't know if they'll boo him.
13:23But I didn't think they'd boo him in a preseason game.
13:25Boy, did they boo him.
13:28And that clearly affected him.
13:31It's going to be tough.
13:32But then, I think, if you're 2-0 and you're coming back home, I think the conversation is,
13:36well, can you boo him?
13:38Because they're 2-0.
13:39So, if they're not booing him on the road, maybe we shouldn't boo him at home.
13:41Who the hell knows?
13:42We're talking about something that's probably not going to happen anyway.
13:44I mean, 2-0.
13:46I mean, we went over the scenario at the beginning of the show that who are they playing week two?
13:50And you know that guy.
13:51If they start putting it on you, they are not going to let off the gas.
13:54He's going to rub it in.
13:55Oh, my God.
13:56He's going to be barking from the sideline over there.
13:58It's going to be something to behold.
13:59And then you guys are going to see that.
14:01If they go down there to Tampa Bay and they get boat raced against Tampa Bay, no pun intended,
14:05and he's over there barking, forget about it.
14:07Forget about it.
14:08I can't.
14:09For his own good, I don't know if you put him out there in week three.
14:12I think a bunch of our fans will be rooting for it.
14:15Because a lot of people just want this entire thing to end.
14:19And it's Baker.
14:20Baker still has.
14:21He doesn't have the stranglehold over the fan base he had, you know, at one point.
14:24But he still has a lot of fans.
14:26Because I still say, and people go, guys, again, the revisionist history gets brought in.
14:31And I go, yeah, I can blame everybody and accuse everybody of revisionist history.
14:35It would still be better than the conversations we're having now.
14:38See, that's how we don't win the argument.
14:40I can sit here and say, well, Baker's not a franchise quarterback.
14:43Go ask Jason Light.
14:44Is it better than the conversations we're having now?
14:46I don't know.
14:47Just consider what we just talked about for the last five minutes.
14:49Yeah, it's better.
14:50All of it's better.
14:51I'd rather be a frustrated Browns fan of a team that is continuously knocking at the door
14:56of the playoffs, continuously can't get through the Chiefs or the Bills or whoever, instead
15:02of what we're dealing with right now.
15:04Where people are just talking about, yeah, we got to lose and we got to rub it in their
15:07faces so we make sure that we're able to fix this thing so they don't get in their own
15:10way.
15:10I don't know.
15:11Which conversation would you rather have?
15:12Certainly, I would rather have the first one.
15:15So, regardless, he wins.
15:17Yes.
15:17That's Watson's stats.
15:18He's 9-10 overall.
15:20He's 4-4 at home, 5-6 on the road.
15:28Well, I don't know what to do with that information right now.
15:31Let me process it.
15:31That does include the Indianapolis game.
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