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00:06Dragon's Den is open for business.
00:10I don't often say this, but your pitch was awful.
00:13You've got to be quiet for this little bit, Peter, if that's alright.
00:16Ouch.
00:17A place where budding entrepreneurs are given a once-in-a-lifetime chance.
00:21You have this most bizarre way of answering questions.
00:27Stop it!
00:28To present their wares to five Captains of Commerce.
00:32You wanted to see how credible we are.
00:34So I'm about to show you.
00:35Well, show me.
00:37Some will succeed and go on to make millions.
00:42Others will fail and leave with nothing.
00:46Make him a counteroffer, tell him to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
00:49With the occasional visit from some wealthy VIPs...
00:52I can't not give you money.
00:54I can't not make you an offer.
00:56First deal in the day.
00:59I didn't want it anyway.
01:00The hunt is on to find the next big money-making idea.
01:05Dragons are good.
01:07Tonight.
01:08We hunted, we fished, we slept in caves and pretty much survived.
01:12Okay, this looks like my kind of pitch.
01:14If you had something to convince me otherwise, now's the time to tell me.
01:19Oh God, I don't know.
01:20What are you looking at me?
01:21I think out of the box.
01:22Yeah.
01:23I think I'm crazy.
01:23I think you're crazy to ever think that you should put yourself in a box.
01:26How can we keep losing money?
01:28My mind has gone blank.
01:29I want 40% of the business.
01:3140%.
01:32The vampire is back.
01:40We just stayed here.
01:41I'm Naomi.
01:42And I'm Dan.
01:43Do you want some water?
01:44Yes.
01:45My favourite one is hemp.
01:47Which one?
01:48See them?
01:49Mm-hmm.
01:49I think the dragons are not going to have a clue what is going on when we come out of
01:54that
01:54lift.
01:55Yeah.
01:56I think we're different.
01:57We're a first.
01:57Yeah.
01:59And a last.
02:00Well, maybe.
02:01Yeah.
02:03So this looks quite artistic.
02:06Craft experience that takes you to the motherland.
02:11It's not African.
02:12That's a prehistoric man.
02:14Or woman.
02:17I feel like Racco Walsh is going to walk through the lift door now.
02:21It's amazing that you thought of that by looking at that.
02:23I think we're too young for that, Steve.
02:26That was 50 years ago.
02:27There you go, yes.
02:32What did I say?
02:34Oh, no, oh, no.
02:35Oh, no, oh, no.
02:36Oh, no, oh, no.
02:37Oh, no, oh, no.
02:44Hello, dragons.
02:46We're husband and wife team, Naomi and Dan.
02:47And these are our cave children, Maggie and Wren.
02:50And we're here today to ask for 40,000 acorns, sorry, I mean pounds,
02:54for 20% investment in our company.
02:57We are the Stone Age company
02:59and we deliver Stone Age education and interactive workshops
03:02to primary school children in and around England.
03:06So these clothes that we're wearing today
03:08are outfits that we've made ourselves to go and live out in the wild.
03:12We've lived out in the wild twice for around about a month,
03:15just surviving off the land.
03:16We hunted, we fished, we foraged, we slept in caves,
03:20and pretty much survived.
03:21We did.
03:22It was after our first experience
03:24that we came back inspired to set up the Stone Age company.
03:27In 2014, the national curriculum changed
03:30and it brought in Stone Age education for primary school children
03:33and we jumped at the opportunity to deliver our experiences for them.
03:37We know there's over 16,000 primary schools in England
03:40and we deliver to about 100 of them at a time a year.
03:43It is with your help that we hope we might be able to expand
03:46taking a caveman or a cavewoman into the classroom
03:49to deliver more of workshops across England.
03:51We were wondering if one of you might want to come up
03:53and join Maggie and Wren in doing some cave art.
03:55Yes.
03:58That's really good artwork.
04:00Do I need to dress up as well?
04:02You do need a wig on.
04:03Oh, I need a wig on, do I?
04:06Stone Age education for schools is the idea from Naomi and Dan Walmsley.
04:12That's actually quite scary.
04:14Oh!
04:17The husband and wife team are looking for a £40,000 investment
04:21in return for a 20% stake in their company.
04:26Exceptionally long arms, I like it.
04:27Yes.
04:28And it's thighs.
04:30I think that's really good.
04:31It's the biggest one on there, isn't it?
04:33Good cavewoman this one, isn't it?
04:37Boom!
04:38Thanks, girls.
04:38Thank you, girls.
04:39Good job.
04:40The kids' prehistoric painting has hit Sarah Davies' sweet spot.
04:49That was fun.
04:51And it looks like Deborah Meaden also has an affinity with the offering.
04:57Do you know, every morning, when I'm at home,
05:01I get up in the morning and I walk barefoot round the garden
05:06just to keep in touch with the earth.
05:08It's the first thing I do come rain, shine, ice, snow.
05:12That's really weird.
05:13What?
05:14I was thinking how amazing that was.
05:15That's not weird at all.
05:17We don't touch the world.
05:18We do not touch the world.
05:20And the least I can do is connect with the earth at least once a day.
05:25Indeed.
05:25Love that.
05:26Right, so I understand where you are today.
05:29What's the turnover so far of the company?
05:32In 2018, we turned over £53,000 and a profit of £3,000.
05:38And then in 2019, we took a lot of time out.
05:42So we turned over £34,000 and a loss of £18,000.
05:47And then in 2020, Covid hit and we turned over £22,000 and a loss of £18,000.
05:55We had a dormant year in 2021 because there was no schools opening.
05:59We couldn't travel to schools.
06:00And in 2022, again, the confidence in schools booking us to come in was very slim.
06:07And so we turned over £27,000 with a loss of £18,000 on that one.
06:12OK, so that's 2018 really was your best year.
06:17Yeah.
06:18OK, now that still didn't deliver.
06:21So if you want to repeat that model going forward, what's going to be different?
06:25Because that really isn't going to sustain you in a living.
06:27Yeah, absolutely.
06:28So if we want to have more teams, we could potentially take in three times the amount
06:32that Dan and I are taking currently.
06:34OK, so if they were doing what you're doing, I mean, they might not be,
06:37because you're obviously very good, you're the founders and you're very good,
06:41then even your best year, that you'd be looking at a turnover of about £200,000?
06:46Around about that, yeah.
06:47And how much profit would that make?
06:50That would make for us...
06:52Oh, we've got numbers for profit for that.
06:56..if we're paying staff, what do we work it out?
06:59Yeah, so we worked it out to be around about £8,000 a month,
07:02but we're paying around £2,000 in wages.
07:05So on £200,000, I think...
07:10..my mind has gone blank.
07:12This is lovely, but this is like a Stone Age budgeting process.
07:17Yeah, totally.
07:18You did it in acorns, I could have got it.
07:22Naomi and Dan.
07:24Hi. Hi.
07:24I love the fact that you're living your passion.
07:27Mm-hm.
07:28And I'm listening to this, and I'm saying to myself,
07:32you've made losses more than you've made profits.
07:35Yeah.
07:35How are you living?
07:37We have some guardian angels.
07:39Currently, we live in a static caravan in my parents' driveway,
07:44so we're not paying rent,
07:46so that we can practise living a bit more sustainably,
07:48and I'm also there to look after my parents.
07:51We live pretty frugally.
07:53Somehow we've got by.
07:56We would like to be making more money.
07:57Right.
07:58That would be really lovely.
07:59How are you funding your losses?
08:01Friends and family.
08:02Literally friends and family.
08:04I believe in you.
08:04Yeah, totally, they have done over the years.
08:06We've never quit.
08:10What would you do, just a matter of fact,
08:12what would you do without the friends and family?
08:15What would you have done?
08:16Or how would you have done something differently?
08:18I'll let you answer that.
08:20I mean, that's hard to know,
08:21because I can't even remember, you know,
08:24going to my parents and saying,
08:26I need the mortgage paid.
08:28I can't remember those specific times.
08:30No, but my point is, though, you've had several years,
08:33like, you've been really honest, which is lovely,
08:35that you've lost 18,000 a year.
08:37Yeah.
08:38Now I've put you in a position
08:39where you didn't get that 18,000.
08:42What would you have done that first year?
08:43And the reason why I'm asking this
08:44is because I know what it's like to have nothing.
08:47I've slept in a warehouse for a long time with no money,
08:52not even any existence.
08:57And that realisation set in,
08:59I've got to go and get a job because I have a family.
09:02And it's just, it was a terrible time of my life.
09:05Mm-hm.
09:06But I got through it,
09:07and then I started my own thing again.
09:09And, boy, my life changed, obviously, immeasurably.
09:12But...
09:14It's a difficult question, I know it is,
09:16but if we go back 12 months,
09:18you lost 18,000 pounds.
09:20Mm-hm.
09:20You'd owe that 18,000 pounds to somebody.
09:22You'd be in debt.
09:23You'd either got debt collectors knocking at a door.
09:25You've got trouble.
09:28What would you have done if that had been the case last year?
09:31I think if that had been the case, then, you know,
09:34like anybody, you'd have to adapt
09:35and we'd have to find another job and earn money
09:38and come back and start again.
09:41Dan, that was really important for me to get that answer, actually.
09:44Yeah. Thank you.
09:45It was the answer that I was hoping.
09:47Yeah.
09:47Because I didn't want to hear that, actually,
09:51he would have just gone into a hole and just...
09:53There's no way.
09:54Blood, sweat and tears have gone into this.
09:56Sleepless nights, you know.
09:58We, like, we believe in this.
10:00We believe in this so much.
10:06Naomi and Dan, you know, you're living your world.
10:14You've said it.
10:15Mm-hm.
10:15You're living your world.
10:17And I admire that because, in a way, you know,
10:20you don't want much, you don't need much.
10:23It's amazing.
10:24Your pitch was too much about how you live your world.
10:31I see there's too much passion in there.
10:33Yeah, and there is a lot of passion.
10:34Nonsense.
10:35And you didn't come across and say,
10:38this is our business strategy, this is our business idea, you know.
10:42And in this case, unfortunately, there's not a plan.
10:45But I do wish you all the best.
10:49And I'll keep an eye out for you guys.
10:51But today, I'm not going to invest them out.
10:55Don't ever let anyone tell you there's too much passion.
10:59Yeah.
10:59There's never enough passion.
11:00And do you know what?
11:01It is refreshing to see somebody so passionate about their business.
11:06But my big concern is that what you're passionate about
11:10is not running a business.
11:12It's teaching those kids about being in the outdoors.
11:15And with all due respect, you haven't given us a great deal of confidence,
11:19certainly not me sitting here, that you have all of the business
11:22and entrepreneurial skills needed to build a successful business.
11:26So I'm going to say that I'm out.
11:29Yeah.
11:34The mission you're on, I think, is a really, really important one.
11:37Reconnecting with nature and getting back to being a little bit more human.
11:41But today, although I see you guys as being incredible,
11:43and I really think that the mission is going to make you prouder than any profits ever could.
11:48Yeah.
11:49I can't see the business here.
11:52So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I do want you to carry on,
11:56because I think it's really important.
12:02I think you're, um, I completely get why you're here.
12:08Um, but I, it feels to me like I don't think you know what it'd be like
12:14to have an investor.
12:15I think you're right, yeah.
12:16Because it changes the world.
12:20If you had an investor on board,
12:22you would fall out of love with the things that you're doing,
12:26because you love doing this.
12:29And I can't imagine sitting in a room,
12:32grilling you over the margins and the profit and the wages percentages.
12:37You know, I just don't think you'd like it.
12:42I think you might be right.
12:46Thank you, Deborah.
12:47You know, lots of things I love about you,
12:48but as an investment, I'm afraid it's not,
12:51I just don't think it's right.
12:52So I'm not going to be,
12:53I'm not going to be offering you an investment.
12:55I'm out.
12:58Well, this has been an adventure, isn't it?
13:00Yeah.
13:00A little one.
13:01Um, I, I really appreciate what you're doing,
13:05and I do understand what you're doing,
13:07because I set a foundation up in 2005.
13:10I wanted to help.
13:13I really wanted to reset people, rewire children at school,
13:17because I felt that there was,
13:19business was not embedded in our education system.
13:22What happens is I give money to six-year-olds.
13:26Mm-hmm.
13:26I lend them money,
13:28and I trust them that they're going to start whatever business they want,
13:31and all they have to do is give the money back to me.
13:33And if they don't make money and they lose the money,
13:36they don't have to give me back a penny.
13:38Mm-hmm.
13:38And it reminded me a little bit of what you're trying to do.
13:41Mine's about doing something really good to help young people.
13:44Yeah.
13:44Have a better chance of a brighter life.
13:47Yours is, but you want to generate income for that.
13:52So, I would love to find a way to help you and support you.
13:55I'm happy to do that and find ways to introduce you to my team,
13:59and we can see where that could take you,
14:01because I think that could be the biggest gift I could give you today.
14:03Yeah.
14:04So, I'm going to say that I'm out,
14:06but I think you might find your dream might become a reality after all,
14:11without having a dragon breathing fire into your cave.
14:17Thank you very much.
14:17Good luck. Thank you.
14:19That means so much to us.
14:19You really deserve it. Good luck.
14:20Well done.
14:20Thank you, guys.
14:23Well done.
14:24Go and tell them kids they did great.
14:26Yeah.
14:27We will.
14:28No investment for Dan and Naomi,
14:31but they do leave the den with the promise of some help from Peter Jones.
14:37Well, I think that's fantastic.
14:39In fact, that's better than walking out of here with an investment, Peter.
14:43Amazing. Amazing. Well done.
14:45We still win.
14:48They are living their passion.
14:50As are you.
14:52As are you.
14:52As are we all.
14:54Yes.
14:55As are we all.
14:56They gave us hope.
14:58Yeah.
14:59Don't start.
15:00They gave us hope in a way that, you know,
15:03they saw our passion and our belief.
15:06We get to continue being us with some guidance, you know.
15:10Blessed and lucky right now.
15:12Yeah, as always.
15:13Lots of emotions.
15:15Well done.
15:16Well done.
15:16Well done.
15:17Well done.
15:28my name is bhavan i'm 38 i'm going to be bringing a south asian beauty regime to the mass market
15:34bring some color into the place exactly color and culture south asian beauty is being celebrated
15:42right now more than ever and i'm so proud that i can show something that i used to hide in
15:49school
15:50now diversity inclusion is celebrated so much and i'm so proud to be adding something to that
15:56movement and celebrating something that i've loved since i was a little girl
16:28hi dragons my name is pavan and i'm the founder of pavan beauty i'm looking for 50 000 pounds
16:34investment in return for 20 equity of my company i was three years old when i watched my mother
16:40apply henna on a bride a day before her wedding i was immediately hooked and i knew i wanted to
16:45be
16:45the best after breaking the guinness world record for being the world's fastest henna artist
16:50working on some high profile projects like creating a window display for harrods
16:54i came up with the idea of opening up a henna bar a term and a concept similar to the
16:58brow bars and
16:59nail bars we've become so accustomed to our mission is to bring indian inspired body art to the high
17:05street and making it accessible to all we will be the first brand to make henna retail ready
17:11i'd now like to invite a dragon to come and experience our product oh i'd love that
17:16i thought i thought you'd all be jumping on that's why i got in there so early well we didn't
17:20get a
17:20choice she hadn't finished her sentence i know that's why i said it quickly come on over
17:25a business that brings the south asian art of henna to the masses is the offering of pavana
17:31luwalia danjal is it permanent so we've got two that lasts on the skin for 10 days but we've got
17:38the zero commitment range that washes off so that's what i'm going to put on you
17:42she's seeking a fifty thousand pound investment all my hands shaking in return for a twenty percent
17:49stake in her company sorry i'd love you to do me as crafting queen sarah davies creative skills are
17:57put to the test for a second time this evening how will she fare against the world record-breaking
18:03pavan excuse me yeah i would say that's very similar i would say that's very similar almost
18:10identical you have to you have competition exactly with stephen bartlett and deborah meaden suitably
18:16styled sarah davies can hang up her henna cone and kick things off having lovely to meet you that's
18:25beautiful i must say it's the first time i have been up close and personal with any henna product
18:30as i have shown with my artwork on stephen is that how it's supposed to look be honest yes
18:39so if there's no right or wrong stuttered very good answer it's about being creative that looks
18:46like you've just spilled tipex on yourself refund and what i'm really interested in understanding so
18:55the business model so you are talking about wanting to open a henna bar you've opened one
19:01henna bar and you want to roll out what what is the model and at what stage of the business
19:05are you at
19:06currently we have a henna bar in selfridges a permanent location that we've been in since 2015.
19:12i have six girls who work for me but after covid we were forced to pivot which is what forced
19:16us to
19:16open our product line so these are the individual cones that you buy we've got two metallic colors we've got
19:22five neon colors green yellow orange pink and blue so you just said sarah you've never ever been in
19:30touch with actual henna products that's because typically that henna is only available at your
19:35local indian grocery store ugly looking not retail ready or people are now artists are now selling it
19:42on amazon and etsy however i would like to see henna alongside your mascara or your nail polish
19:48in different retail outlets like boots to make that available to a wider market so is the investment
19:55today in the entire business both the uh concession and selfridges and also all of the products absolutely
20:02so there are three revenue streams at the moment one is the henna bars themselves the second part is
20:08retail products and the third thing is corporate i say corporate events but events in general so in that
20:15case then how long have you been doing the retail products so we've officially launched the retail
20:21products uh this year january right so well because what i was going to ask for was the last few
20:26years
20:27of sales but that's not overly relevant because they won't include the retail products but i still want
20:31to know those so that i can get a feel for the scale of the business without that so the
20:36end of 2021 was
20:3725 because that was the year of covid net six net loss of 1600 2022 was 43 000 net loss
20:47of 1200 sales to date
20:49this year 21 000 net profit of 8 000. and of that 21 how much of it was in the
20:57pop-up and how much of it
20:59was retail products so in uh in the henna bar it's 16 000 4 000 has been events and the
21:06remaining on our
21:07products i'm just intrigued you said 16 000 the whole of last year in the henna bar not of last
21:18year the
21:19the whole of last year at the henna bar was 36 000 but that 36 000 employed six people not
21:25not at one
21:26time we have one because of covid we've reduced our shift time but there's no covid last year that
21:31affected selfridges so the reason why is because the football hasn't picked up now in 2016 2017 our sales
21:39were 125 000 in selfridges those were the kind of things we were making and how much did you make
21:46net
21:46that year a net loss of 214 214 pounds yeah perfect i'm i'm instinctively i know you can't make a
21:58judgment about a business in less than five minutes but it doesn't kind of surprise me because i'm not
22:05sure that you can create a business with the overhead of being in a place like selfridges and the staff
22:13and
22:13the training i don't think i can't see how it's possible to create a business going to make you
22:20money so i understand the pivot to this so this is your business pitch then really isn't it it isn't
22:27the bars uh no okay give me an idea of how much would that what is that going to cost
22:33so one of those
22:35cones the cost to make it is two pounds and we retail it at ten pounds
22:42however can i check something absolutely if i want to do it this at the moment you you talk about
22:48my
22:49options as the local grocery store or amazon or etsy all right so if i went on to one of
22:56the platforms
22:56like etsy for example how many offerings would i have probably a lot and cheaper i think you could
23:05pick up a henna cone for about five or six pounds okay so you've got quite a hard sell there
23:11haven't you
23:12because you've got to somehow get your message out that you're different to all of these other
23:18offerings that i'm going to be offered when it comes up and how are you doing that at the moment
23:25so no henna cone is packaged the way you've got them in those boxes at the moment
23:30they are made at home they haven't got the labeling on them barcodes that kind of thing
23:35so we've made sure that all of our products are cosmetically approved so our cost is high because
23:40we've had to go through all of those regulations to make sure that it is retail ready
23:44how about i've read this because it's quite small tingling sensation is normal what causes
23:50the tingling sensation so that's not usually a good thing clove oil and eucalyptus oil are there
23:55warnings if you're allergic because some people get quite a reaction to eucalyptus and what we do is
24:00we offer patch test if they want to come into store and have a patch test that's in store what
24:03about
24:03online though i mean no one touchwood has come up with a reaction but if that's something that you
24:07think we should add on to the product we're more than happy to do that yeah so pavan
24:13the concern i've got with this is i can see how within your community there is huge demand for
24:21this that demand is not going anywhere that's going to be continuous i can't see how that demand is
24:30going to stretch outside of your culture and your community okay i may be wrong but i i can't i
24:38am not
24:38seeing any evidence to support that okay if you had something to convince me otherwise now's the time
24:45to tell me before i say those words so basically we've have found reports that even last week vogue
24:52wrote an editorial saying that south asian beauty is at the forefront of the beauty industry right now
24:58and not just for the south asian community but for everybody the first thing that non-asian people say
25:04to me is god i love henna i just never know where to get it done from okay so therein
25:11lies the problem
25:12with the mass market product the issue they said is that they don't know where to find the product
25:16yeah they don't know what to where to get it done and i mean i am pretty artistic and you
25:22saw the
25:22terrible job i did of this on steven terrible now i'm not saying that i wouldn't get better with a
25:27little bit more practice but if i wanted to have henna done i would want to go to someone who
25:32i would
25:33expect would provide the product because your community is well serviced with the current
25:39distribution channels it worries me that there's not the demand in the marketplace for this on a mass
25:45market level so it's it's not an investment for me today and i'm out but i really enjoyed learning a
25:53little bit more about the industry thank you having um i i completely disagree with sarah where she said
26:03that she doesn't see how demand will stretch outside of your community because i have already seen in
26:09my partner in people in my my offices etc that henna has huge demand but sarah is completely correct when
26:17she says that i can't imagine there being a huge market for people doing do-it-yourself henna or the
26:25people that are headed professionals going to boots to get their supplies okay it feels like the do-it-yourself
26:31market would be the ones that go to boots but henna is such a technical thing as sarah said that
26:35you
26:35wouldn't go to boots to buy it i would absolutely bet on you as an entrepreneur but i but i
26:43don't quite have
26:44enough conviction to put on this as a business okay so i'm going to say that i'm out but i
26:48wish you the
26:48very very best thank you see i also agree with steven i get you're right this is crossing over into
27:06mainstream and it will definitely have its moment i i'm loving wearing this thank you it's making my
27:12hands feel nice i have people who say when they wear it they feel like they've got superpowers
27:16the trouble is at the moment there is no sign in your business at all that you even you're even
27:22i know you want help but you're not investable you're just not at that stage yet
27:30okay so i'm afraid i won't be investing i'm out thank you
27:37um no i i gave you i said what i thought earlier and i think you're doing the right thing
27:41to focus on on this product i really do and i think that you've got an opportunity potentially
27:46to get this into market i think you're almost retail ready now so i think you've done a really
27:52really good job thank you but i don't think that for me to build this into a big business i'm
28:01not
28:01going to be your right person to help you here okay so i'm going to say that i'm out thank
28:06you
28:10pavan you're good and i'm not i'm torn a little bit because you're good but i don't think you are
28:19going
28:19to rock the henna market i think it's too established too much out there but what i do
28:27believe is you create a craze in henna for kids in colors and designs because i think a lot of
28:38young
28:38little girls when they get to the age of 10 and 11 they start want to explore with a little
28:42forced makeup you get the papers that they can stick on their faces and paint over you might have a
28:47business that's that's my view you know but i know the children's market and i know that kids
28:55love this sort of thing absolutely yeah you think i'm crazy no not at all unfortunately look one part
29:05of me wants to invest in you right because i'd like to see that little journey but there's nothing
29:13tangible nothing tangible nothing tangible that says to me um what could you say to change his mind
29:19he's about to go out i really don't know if i said to you if i gave you a month
29:28to come up with a pack
29:31for kids i could do that okay this is what i'm gonna do i'll give you the whole 50 000
29:43but i want 40 of the business 40 the vampire is back
29:50go to the back wall and think about it oh god i don't know why are you looking at me
29:56i'm like what
29:57what should i do um against the run of play tuca sulliman swoops in with a lifeline for pavan
30:06but at 40 percent that's twice the equity the entrepreneur was initially willing to give away
30:17i can't part with 40 percent
30:25tell you what i'll do
30:28if i get my money back within 12 months go down to 30 percent
30:32i could do that done great
30:42success for pavan you come up with the goods i will i'll come up with the goods who leaves with
30:47investment and a road map to riches from high street heavyweight tuca sulliman
30:56i'm really excited to work with tuca i think this is going to help us get on the way in
31:01retail and
31:02really expand our product line um and i know he's going to add so much value to our business
31:07tuca i think that you look you've backed a good entrepreneur well let's see what she comes up with
31:25i'm isaac i'm 27 i'm from nottingham
31:29from the age of 14 i've set up small side hustles in my university days i did a little kind
31:37of
31:37dragon's den pitch um fast forward you know a few years and i'm actually in the real dragon's den
31:43it's a lot more nerve-wracking but you know i'm confident in my product and i just can't wait to
31:48to get in there really is it an ice cream business pola okay this looks like my kind of pitch
31:57it won't just be me in the den i'll also be bringing my mum along so it's going to be
32:02a
32:02real family affair you can love these oh i hope
32:14hi i'm isaac chief pop maker at polar and today i'm pitching for 50 000 pounds in return for 15
32:20of my revolutionary ice pop company here at polar we've reinvented the ice pop gone are the days of
32:27blue stained tongues artificial flavors and ingredients you can't pronounce we've created a
32:31more natural better for you and tastier alternative all of our ice pops are lovingly handmade with real
32:38fruit and high quality ingredients they are dairy free naturally low calorie and taste absolutely
32:43delicious four summers ago i started polar by purchasing an ice pop cart off ebay renovating it
32:49and pushing it around my city center selling my ice pops to passersby fast forward to now and we are
32:55stocked in health food shops up and down the country we also attend festivals with our fleet of
32:59ice pop carts and sell direct to consumer via our own websites over the past four months we've been
33:05refining our brand new freeze at home ranges including our premium alcoholic ice pop range
33:10and our 100 natural no added sugar range of ice pops and are currently in talks with new wholesalers
33:16and stockists to expand the retail arm of our business as well as this we've built up a huge
33:21following on tick tock with 74 000 followers and over 40 million views we are a very exciting time in
33:28business and we would love a dragon or dragons to join us thanks a lot for listening now who would
33:33like to get taken back to their childhood with an ice pop absolutely and about some samples mum mum
33:42is that all for me a natural ice pop business with a growing range of products is the brainchild of
33:49isaac greenway tambine oh my god that is brilliant okay i'm in and i haven't tasted them yet based on
33:56that reaction alone he's looking for 50 000 pounds that's my favorite in return for 15 of his company
34:05that elderflower is absolutely delicious yeah so the alderflower and that is actually picked by my mum
34:11in and around nottinghamshire clever mum as the rest of the dragons polish off their pops thanks for
34:20that mum i'll see you later okay it's time for deborah meaden to put hers down and start the interrogation
34:31isaac hiya my goodness i'm gonna have to sit here and listen to those slurp their way through the most
34:39delicious oh look look this torture stop it um so just so i understand where the business is
34:47now yeah you started three years ago four years ago four years ago talk me through your turnover
34:54from then to now so i can get an idea of the size of the business so first year revenue
34:58was a thousand
34:59pound net profit minus two thousand six hundred pound second year revenues of six thousand pound net profit
35:05minus eleven thousand seven hundred pound year three revenues of sixteen thousand pound net profit
35:11minus eleven thousand three hundred and year four revenues of thirty two thousand and a net profit of
35:16minus five and a half thousand pound okay um now i bet you can guess my next question how can
35:25we keep
35:25losing money yeah so for us we we haven't outsourced production so we've been reinvesting a lot of our
35:33products into our kitchen which we had to fit out from scratch you know our first two years i spent
35:40in my kind of family home kitchen it was all very handmade you know we were getting i was going
35:44out
35:44and picking strawberries uh heat sealing ice pops with hair straighteners like yeah very handmade i
35:51realized a couple years ago you know these products weren't tailored towards the mainstream markets
35:55you know i'm i'm not gonna be able to spend all afternoon juicing lemons so we've got a machine
36:00capable of producing 15 000 ice pops a day so we're really ready to you know push these products out
36:06to pretty much everywhere and you know build a profitable business okay so let's talk let's talk
36:13you through how much how much would i have to pay for the strawberry and vanilla which is lovely yeah
36:18so
36:18the strawberry and vanilla it costs 30p to make yes it's then sold at a wholesale price of 99p
36:24and it retails at 1.99 but i isaac at two pounds a pop that's quite a lot isn't it
36:31yep so our more
36:34premium range and our gelato range yeah they are a more expensive product which is what led me into
36:40creating our more affordable no added sugar range which for a multi-pack of 12 sits at a retail price
36:46of
36:463.99 and at 33p per pop we feel that's quite a an affordable option and also because my kids
36:52love
36:52all this sort of stuff but my kids make this themselves at home so where you can make them at
36:57home there is still a market for the clean label ice pops for example the leading healthy ice pop
37:03brand in us is selling over 100 million tubes for a reason and who's your nearest competitor in the uk
37:10yeah so in terms of kind of cleaner label ice pop brands there's no one out there in the market
37:16at the moment why is that it it just hasn't been done but why hasn't it been done
37:25so what there must be a reason why you're saying that there's a gap in the market but is there
37:30a
37:30market in the gap yes because nobody's entered it yeah yeah it's my question comes back to why why
37:37has nobody done it i honestly think just just nobody's had the idea yet it's been done in other
37:44countries have you asked have you met up with manufacturers have you spoken to
37:51people have you spoken to the supermarket have you spoken to people to understand why that's the case
37:59no but i can say whilst it's you know it's it's hard to get sales data on icebox but
38:05uk consumers definitely have a palette for frozen treats you know we're selling 20 million pounds
38:11worth of calipos every year in the uk but with the market gearing towards you know healthier products
38:17i think you know for for sure there is a market in a you know a cleaner label more premium
38:23ice pop
38:27isaac so it's going to sound a little bit brutal but i mean it with the best intention
38:31yeah i genuinely don't believe that any major supermarket will stock the product
38:39okay and it's it's not because it's not a fantastic product you send that to any buyer you'll
38:43get the same reaction that we've got and i i kind of worry that you've maybe come in the den
38:47thinking
38:47any one of us could pick up the phone to a senior buyer in any one of those supermarkets and
38:53ask for
38:53a listing and the difficulty is if there is not a product like this in there at the moment
38:59yet they have suppliers who could easily make that product it's because they will not be sufficient
39:05demand for it if i was in your shoes now i would look at well how do i build a
39:10business and i believe
39:12if you go to festivals you will continue to recruit customers who will buy i can tell you now i
39:17will be
39:18repeat ordering that product regularly because it is another level to any other product i've tasted like
39:23that and all you needed was that one introduction for me to see it to me that is the business
39:27model
39:27that you want to build on so i think there's an opportunity here in the business but it's not
39:33the one that you're pursuing so i don't think investment's right for you so i'm going to say
39:37that i'm out but that you've got a new customer cheers i really respect you i really respect it the
39:47hustle you've shown to persist you know shows that there's a real innate passion there for this
39:52and even hearing that you've been slogging this cart around giving away your ice cream nothing but
39:56admiration you you have grown the sales year over year which is somewhat promising but i just look at it
40:03and i i can't see how 50k is going to be enough to get you to a point where you
40:08have anywhere near
40:09the scale in the next couple of years for an investor to get to get a return with that i'm
40:14going to say i'm out but i do commend you because the the product is incredibly delicious and i admire
40:20your perseverance as a young entrepreneur okay thank you steven appreciate that
40:27um the the the problems i think you're going to face is that this is a changing marketplace you
40:33have got giants in there you know they've got their nose to the ground they know exactly where the
40:38consumer is headed and what they want and they're going to you know they're going to do it and they're
40:43going to get there ahead of you that doesn't mean to say you don't have a business and i will
40:48bet you
40:50that this isn't the business but that you'll learn from this business you'll do well enough with it to
40:57set yourself up in the next business in the next business because you're capable of doing it okay so
41:02you can hear from that i won't be investing but i would be encouraged thank you i'm out
41:11isaac um there's nothing more wonderful than somebody's trying to start and thinking of
41:16an idea and coming up with it and making it work but personally giving you genuine honest feedback
41:24i think that you have let yourself down by not understanding the market of which you're in
41:31and i strongly advise you to get that really going for you really understand the market that
41:39you're about to enter because you're when you sit in front of an investor we don't and should never
41:45understand the market better than you yeah so i wish you the very best of luck i can't invest today
41:52from what i've seen and say that i'm out okay but good luck cheers be up
41:58i just want to ask you a simple question because you know i think out of the box yeah they
42:03think i'm
42:04crazy crazy is good in my eye yeah i think you're crazy to ever think that you should put yourself
42:08in
42:08a box right so just want to ask you a question yeah so if you wanted to scale up production
42:14yeah you
42:15could do that yeah so we've got all the machinery we've got our production space it's fully kitted out
42:20so so let's assume that you've got the product you've got those little things there yeah which you
42:27can lease and let's be honest i've seen them in the park you know where they queue up 50 fold
42:34to get
42:35a to get one of these yeah forget the price because when you're in the park you'll pay anything
42:39right yeah you could create a franchise model that alone is a business in itself
42:46yeah so there's there's definitely a franchising opportunity there i actually think that's quite a
42:51good idea i'm saying so i'm not here to write your business model for you yeah but i've looked i've
42:55listened to everything and i say it's a shame because you've got great product finished product
43:02that i tasted i think it's fantastic somehow i want to shake you up and say to you isaac you've
43:10got
43:10something you've got to rethink yeah i mean yeah we we know we've got a really great product what i
43:17can
43:17say is you know other aspects of the business not might not be perfect but i believe my sheer
43:22determination and passion is really what's going to you know allow this business to succeed and i
43:28don't have an answer quitting me this is this is not over for you this is the beginning and i
43:33believe
43:34that if you stop and then focus you'll have a fantastic business you've learned a lot yeah
43:41you're in a privileged position to listen to five great brains here
43:46take on board what we've all said and i wish you all the best i'm out
43:52thank you isaac thanks well done well done well done mate see you soon
43:56tell your man we love our cardio i will do i will do plenty of belief in isaac's ability
44:03but not enough to secure a dragon for this business i didn't get investment today but you know the
44:09dragons really loved the taste of our products and i think with food you know that's the most important
44:13thing i actually could genuinely got a sugar rush halfway through i've like demolished three of them
44:20before we started i've done i've done the whole box i'm going to keep on you know making sure i
44:26get
44:26my ice pops in as many people's hands as possible in the next few years you will see us in
44:31some of those
44:31larger retailers you know whether it be the products we have right now or a future range
44:51that's what we're going to get in the next few years
44:53hi i'm sydney i'm jess and we're here because we're building the future of findery
45:00i think we're going to get a gift oh i mean wait till we see what you get first yeah
45:04it might be like
45:05a belly bar or something you never know i'll have to replace my other belly ball then i might
45:09see what you're talking about yeah yeah yeah if we work out of the den with a dragon i think
45:15the value
45:16added is definitely not just the money it's really their network their expertise and that's what we're
45:21looking for and should the duo manage to secure any offers they have a secret weapon she's a great
45:30negotiator do you think yeah i don't know so let's see hey dragons i'm sydney and i'm jess we are
45:48the
45:48founders of kimai the brand on a mission to bring transparency to the fine jewelry industry sydney and
45:55myself vote grew up in antwerp in belgium the diamond city of the world but even by knowing diamond
46:01traders or jewelers directly there was no way for us to know where the diamonds we were buying were
46:06coming from so four years ago we decided to create kimai it's a fine jewelry brand made exclusively with
46:13lab-grown diamonds and recycled gold our diamonds are grown in a lab and are chemically and optically
46:20identical to mined one without their negative impact the diamond industry has known many
46:25controversies over the years from unarticle mining environment to huge negative environmental impact
46:32our generation as younger customers we're looking for more traceability and approachability
46:37in the brands we're buying from our jewelry has been seen by celebrities such as megan markle
46:43emma watson or jessica alba we're looking for 250 000 pounds in exchange for a three percent
46:50stake in our business we've got some pieces for you have a look and let us know if you have
46:54any question
46:57bling without the ethical or environmental baggage thank you is the offering of jessica
47:03warch and sydney newhouse how much does this one cost to buy i'm blind
47:09thank you this one is sixteen thousand sixteen thousand the belgian born duo are seeking 250 000
47:18pounds in return for a three percent share in their luxury jewelry brand and how much is the one you've
47:25given me this one is six thousand not only has steven bartlett been presented with the most expensive ring
47:36are we giving these back yeah unfortunately unfortunately yes he also appears most engaged by the business
47:47jess sydney um really interesting really really interesting can you start by just giving giving me
47:55some detail on the difference between a lab grown diamond and a real diamond in terms of price and also
48:01demand whether that's a growing demand or it's a stagnant demand first of all they are identical
48:07physically chemically and optically in terms of price uh lab grand diamond are less expensive than mine
48:15around 50 to 60 percent less expensive and in terms of like growing demand last year um the units of
48:22lab grand diamonds sold were almost equal to the units of mine diamond salt is there something
48:28proprietary about the process that you go through to produce the products that you make so we don't
48:34manufacture the diamond we work with a lab directly with whom we have close relationship we really
48:40focus on the brand side of it we believe that the the in order to change that market it really
48:45comes
48:45through a brand because that's how we're able to educate the customers and so what we focus on is
48:51really the design and creating something unique that is unique to us because that's where we believe the
48:55value is over time right okay um so your first year of trading was when so like 2019 can you
49:04run me
49:04through sales in 2019 yeah um so 350 000 pounds in revenue and a net loss of minus uh 350
49:12pounds 350 000 yeah
49:18the second year we've done 890 000 and a net loss of minus 350 and last year we've done three
49:28million
49:29pounds and a net loss of minus 100 and this year we're on track to do five million pounds and
49:36a profit of
49:38500 000 have you taken prior investment so we've launched without any investment and then two months
49:46after our launch we got megan markle to wear our pieces which enabled us to grow the revenue
49:51significantly and from there we raised 1.2 million dollars so last question then how did you get megan
49:58markle to wear your jewelry cold emails cold emails cold emails hustling yeah we're big believers in cold
50:05emails and it's the same way we got all of our investors we didn't know anyone in the space i
50:10love it
50:15hi guys hi that's beautiful and it's lovely that it's it's a thoughtful ring and i think that's
50:24absolutely the way the market is is moving it's very big watch me watch me because i might just forget
50:31to take that off later so what's your plan i mean you so you clearly love what you're doing
50:39is your plan to get investment grow the brand and exit it or is it is this something that you
50:45see as
50:45a life lifetime's work we do think like definitely there's opportunity uh to exit at one point uh as we
50:53said we're early on in the market all the traditional brands are definitely looking at the space
50:57um and that's where we think there's an opportunity to kind of like at one point exit the company
51:10i think you've got us all mesmerized certainly got us all thinking
51:14the biggest question one will ask is there movement on the free percent we have to try that by making
51:21an
51:25offer just sydney this is the first time i'm going to be really honest this is the first time i've
51:30ever
51:30been in a investment discussion with a diamond based high-end jewelry brand so this is kind of new
51:37territory for me and i'm clearly realizing that i can't apply the usual metrics that i would to value a
51:44business to value this business because you have raised big funds at a very high valuation long
51:54before you were profitable and i think if i don't take this opportunity i will look back on it and
52:00regret it so thank you i want to offer you all of the money for the three percent you've asked
52:04for
52:09thank you thank you you two are very good in this space
52:18you've done really well and i think i would be a perfect partner for you
52:24i really do i have all of the contacts to make this business big
52:31i'm very close friends with the the owners of cartier um as a family um wonderful family
52:37i just think i forgot the entire package and then sarah comes in and offers you that
52:42um which i think is i do think it's rich at the moment
52:50so sarah's cocked it up really to be honest
52:55well you can make a different you can make another offer like to spice things up
53:00yeah make a make a different offer i'll think about it i'm not friends with the cartier
53:08just to make that perfectly clear in case it comes down to a decision and
53:13full transparency you know i've got some great friends that's not one of them
53:19i'll tell you where i am guys might as well um look you're very credible however i've got a couple
53:28of diamond dealer friends and i know a little bit about this business and i asked myself you know if
53:35i invested 250 000 in other businesses in this sector i get a lot more than three percent
53:42and to me this is not going to excite me three percent so i'm out
53:50yeah i i'm i actually think the same so sadly i'm going to say that i'm out
54:01so i'm quite known for my jewelry and i get offered collaborations with businesses who will offer me
54:08percentages of the business and i've never done it because i've never been quite sure that i'm going
54:13to be happy about the deep ethics of a business you know i thought i don't want to be promoting
54:19something i'll then find out later it's a blood diamond you know so that's always held me back
54:24and you kind of clear the way because you've bounded yourselves on sustainability and thoughtfulness
54:31um so i am going to make you an offer um and i will offer you all of the money
54:39um i would love
54:41to be part of this journey um but i want five percent of the business okay thank you
54:49jess sydney um i think you are un uninvestable the story you told me of hounding down megan markle
54:59was the moment you had my heart because that's what that's what it takes but the three percent
55:06thing is is difficult specifically because you don't need money what you need is value add i've
55:15spent the last 10 years growing the world's biggest brands that's what i'm really really good at
55:21so i'm going to offer you all of the money and um
55:29my ask is for five percent as well thank you do you go take yes thank you
55:39jess and sydney have three competing bids to consider
55:45sarah davies has offered 250 000 pounds in return for the three percent equity they were seeking
55:52while deborah meaden and steven bartlett are both looking for a five percent share
56:04so firstly thank you so much for all of your offer and appreciate all the nice words
56:11unfortunately i'm so sorry but we'll have to say no um to the offers
56:18all offers all offers yeah
56:23just to get this right so i'm not confused you came in asking for a quarter of a million
56:27for three percent yeah you've been given that offer yeah and you've rejected it
56:32so we just think definitely the value added is important to us and i think like definitely what you
56:36said steven about everything that comes with to build a brand is really what we value most um
56:41but unfortunately like we won't be able to take it at that valuation but we really came with that goal
56:46oh sorry so sarah you're rejecting sarah's offer they came for steven they're quite clear
56:51it's what they just tried what they've just tried to say they came in for steven
56:55you can't you can't move from three percent at all under any circumstances
57:00can i have a minute yeah thank you
57:10what do you want to do
57:17i just i just i just can't i just
57:24can't let you walk away so you've got a deal
57:30oh my god you drive the best well done amazing well done congratulations well done
57:37a polished performance from jess and sydney who leave the den with a cool quarter of a million
57:45i can't believe we got to be offers when it came to the equity on offer the pair weren't budging
57:52but somehow they still secured their chosen dragon steven look into my eyes look into my eyes not around
58:01stop looking at the shiny things it's wonderful you've just invested in the diamond business that
58:04isn't diamonds those founders are diamonds they're real diamonds and that's that's why i invested
58:09we're feeling good excited really happy with the outcome steven is really the most added value for
58:16us today to be honest we couldn't have dreamed of better exactly
58:30next time on dragon's den have you ever tried to brush your cat's teeth i'm not doing that it's for
58:36you're very good so i i snore i'm very confident of this business some would say a little bit
58:42desperate don't bark at me you've got royalty as an investor yeah why on earth didn't you tell us
58:47that in the beginning but this is an investment for the future no it's an investment for today
58:51you're like a headless chicken bless you are you a mannequin what i've learned in life is nothing
58:57comes for free he's asked for 40k that's like one pound to you
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