- 1 day ago
John and Pia continue tracing the historical pipeline from William Branham, the Healing Revival, and Latter Rain theology into the Shepherding Movement, PDI, and the New Apostolic Reformation. They discuss how doctrines of authority, submission, deliverance, spiritual covering, perfection, and apostolic oversight helped create systems where leaders were treated as spiritually superior and ordinary believers were trained to obey.
Pia shares firsthand memories from her time inside PDI, including her experiences around Larry Tomczak, C.J. Mahaney, Che Ahn, Covenant Life Church, and the internal culture of conferences, manuals, rebukes, deliverance teachings, and authoritarian control. The conversation also addresses public allegations and lawsuits connected to Sovereign Grace/PDI, emphasizing that these are not merely theological disputes but systems that affected real people, families, children, and survivors.
00:00 Introduction
02:13 William Branham and the Roots of the Movement
09:14 Pia’s Experience Inside PDI
12:25 Derek Prince and the Shepherding Movement
18:05 Authoritarian Leadership Inside PDI
23:09 Fivefold Ministry and Modern Apostles
29:53 Blind Guides and Spiritual Control
37:47 From Healing Revival to Spiritual Covering
42:21 The 2012 PDI Lawsuit
47:03 The Real Human Cost of the Movement
51:14 The Doctrines Behind the Abuse
53:33 Conclusion
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Pia shares firsthand memories from her time inside PDI, including her experiences around Larry Tomczak, C.J. Mahaney, Che Ahn, Covenant Life Church, and the internal culture of conferences, manuals, rebukes, deliverance teachings, and authoritarian control. The conversation also addresses public allegations and lawsuits connected to Sovereign Grace/PDI, emphasizing that these are not merely theological disputes but systems that affected real people, families, children, and survivors.
00:00 Introduction
02:13 William Branham and the Roots of the Movement
09:14 Pia’s Experience Inside PDI
12:25 Derek Prince and the Shepherding Movement
18:05 Authoritarian Leadership Inside PDI
23:09 Fivefold Ministry and Modern Apostles
29:53 Blind Guides and Spiritual Control
37:47 From Healing Revival to Spiritual Covering
42:21 The 2012 PDI Lawsuit
47:03 The Real Human Cost of the Movement
51:14 The Doctrines Behind the Abuse
53:33 Conclusion
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former sister-in-law to Cheyenne, who's a
00:47super apostle of NAR and a missionary to the Philippines.
00:51Pia, it's good to be back and to dissect this machine that we have been digging into.
00:56And I'm going to, just for you, I'm going to open up just a little bit more than I have
01:02ever on the podcast.
01:04Because I try very hard to separate my family from myself, from what I do, and some of the things
01:10they believe.
01:11Because I don't want people to point to me thinking that I'm looking at my family and I do all
01:17of this because of some ill intent toward my family.
01:20I don't do this, right?
01:21But my family believes some weird stuff.
01:26I'm going to open up and let it fly in this episode because it ties directly to what we were
01:34talking about before the episode.
01:35And it ties to everything that we're going to get into as we develop what we're establishing as the framework
01:42that was laid to build this NAR system.
01:46And nobody knows how bad it is.
01:49I read through the comments and I read people are saying things like, this is serving a different God.
01:54Do you know this is serving a different God?
01:56If they knew exactly which God it was they were serving, they would attack it all the harder.
02:02They would say, what on earth are you guys doing?
02:04I'm going to open that door today.
02:06All right, let's do it.
02:08So my grandfather, I have mentioned bits and pieces of this, but I'm going to lay it all out.
02:13And there are places where you can go online to see all of this.
02:17But we're talking about today an intersection in time where Branham has died.
02:23The shepherding movement is starting to evolve.
02:26And keep in mind, as you think about that, that Ern Baxter was not just Branham's campaign manager.
02:33He was his close friend, spreaded the doctrine, taught the doctrine.
02:37There was a lot of synergy there between Branham and Baxter.
02:41And you have people like Teal Osborne, which I'm about to mention.
02:44I've mentioned in the past.
02:46But there was a moment in time when all of these people believed that God had came to earth.
02:53And I kid you not, they believed that William Branham had come to earth and God had come into William
03:00Branham.
03:01And they were worshiping Branham as a deity.
03:04My grandfather would say things like, we saw God when we saw William Branham.
03:09Or he would say, God tabernacled in human flesh.
03:13Now, to the majority of people who look at Branhamism, they can't catch it.
03:18Because in the core, central cult of Branham, they use loaded language.
03:25And they've actually loaded Bible verses and numbers and chapter numbers as this thing that they're calling a doctrine.
03:36But what they're essentially saying is Branham was this.
03:38For example, I'm going to point heavily to this speech that was given by multiple people when Branham died, this
03:46memorial service.
03:48Picture all of these men, full gospel businessmen, Branhamites.
03:52And William Branham's son introduces the whole thing by saying he was Malachi 4 and 5 and he was Revelation
03:5910-7.
04:00So, he's talking Christian identity.
04:03This is William Branham was the Elijah that returned.
04:07And Revelation 10-7 is the mystery of the seals is open.
04:11If you follow that passage of text and compare it to their doctrine, they're essentially saying that he was the
04:18son of man.
04:19Another one that they will say is Luke 17-30.
04:23When the son of man is revealed, that was William Branham.
04:26So, all of this loaded language.
04:28So, picture this event, Branham has died, full gospel businessmen are gathering together.
04:33It's held at a full gospel businessmen's convention and then again later at the tabernacle in Jeffersonville.
04:39And there's a speech that you can find online and you can search any of these quotes.
04:44But I'm going to read you a few quotes from these main figures as Branham died.
04:50So, his son opens it with, he was the messenger of Malachi 4-5 and Revelation 10-7.
04:56And then another speaker gets up and carries it a little bit further.
05:00He, Branham, represented the Lord Jesus Christ.
05:04And then he goes on to say it was Jesus Christ being manifested in the church in these closing days.
05:10So, they're believing the end of the world is coming.
05:12And he would say he was a prophet, but he was more than a prophet, which is a phrase I
05:17heard often.
05:18He was the son of man, essentially.
05:21Tommy Osborne, this is very key because Tommy Osborne was working with Gordon Lindsay, who was the founder of Christ
05:29for the Nations, who trains all of these people in deliverance.
05:33He was very close to William Branham.
05:35He believed Branham was God in the flesh.
05:37And he opens by saying, in short, we know, as William Branham was sent to demonstrate God again in the
05:45flesh.
05:45That's how he opened up his speech.
05:47And then later he explicitly said it, God came again in human flesh.
05:51Wow.
05:52He went on to say he stepped down and said a little man, a prophet, but more than a prophet
05:58this time, a Jesus man this time, a Jesus man full of God.
06:03And then towards the end he says, I saw Jesus that night in human form that they called William Branham.
06:11So, picture T.L. Osborne saying these heretical things, these are horrific things, in front of other people who are
06:19in the same movement.
06:20So, it's not just that he's saying it, you have an audience of people.
06:24T.L. Osborne is one of the people who sent training materials to the leaders of the shepherding movement
06:30when they began what essentially evolved into shepherding.
06:35And I won't go too far because I want to save some of it for the podcast,
06:38but I'm laying the bedrock so that you can understand that this wasn't serving the God of the Bible.
06:44This was actually something quite different that was developing.
06:47Oh, my gosh.
06:51My mind is just, like, exploding right now.
06:55Because I have been following your past podcasts, John.
07:00I mean, I have a lot of catch-up to do because you've done so much.
07:04But what you just told me, I don't know, it's just so hard to wrap my brain around
07:12that all these well-meaning Christians, I mean, if we can even call them Christians,
07:20could actually believe all this nonsense.
07:25Like, wow.
07:29So, well, I'm glad you started there.
07:33Because now we are going to pull it further into, like, the 70s and the 80s and 90s,
07:43which is, by the way, it's so interesting to me that William Branham was,
07:50he died in 1965, right?
07:53And I think I told you I was born in 1965.
07:56So, and, you know, even though I was 19, by the time I got sucked into this system,
08:08this NARS system, I was Catholic from, you know, from my babyhood till 19 years old.
08:18But obviously from the time Branham left Earth, as a human being, by the way,
08:28he is six feet under like everybody else, you know, didn't get resurrected, by the way.
08:35Jesus is the only man who has ever and will be resurrected, right?
08:42But yeah, during that time, this NARS system, this PDI, I'm going to just,
08:50shepherding, how about this, shepherding movement, PDI, NAR.
08:56These are the three big cogs that are now going to really go full force
09:02coming from the latter rain movement, which Branham was a part of.
09:11So, all right.
09:13So I want to pick up where I left off the last time where I talked about three men in
09:21particular
09:22that I was in personal contact with.
09:28So starting with, of course, Che, former brother-in-law.
09:34He was also the senior pastor during this time, during the PDI movement days.
09:43He was senior pastor of Abundant Life Community Church, which was in Pasadena, California.
09:50Then we have Larry Tomczak, who was the co-founder and director of People of Destiny International, PDI,
10:00and my highest boss, right?
10:04So last time I talked about how I was once an employee of PDI.
10:10And then the third guy is CJ Mahaney, who was my senior pastor, my very first senior pastor
10:19of Covenant Life Church, which was also in Maryland, which is where PDI headquarters was.
10:28So these three men, I mean, little did I know that they would have such an impact on my,
10:37not just my life, but my family's life, my children's lives.
10:45And so I'm going to go back, you know, in the, let's go back to the 70s when they all
10:53met.
10:53All three men were, I think, in their late teens or early 20s, can't be sure, but they
11:01were all part of the Jesus movement of the 70s.
11:04They all got radically saved.
11:07And somehow, you know, they will say that they were all three divinely connected.
11:13And they started TAG, Take and Give, which was this small Bible study group meeting in
11:22someone's living room in Washington, D.C.
11:25And these three men would take turns, you know, teaching straight from the Bible.
11:32And then it just mushroomed into this huge group.
11:36And I think at its height, Take and Give had about 2,000 members.
11:44Pretty sure they weren't meeting at a living room at this point.
11:50So obviously they needed a bigger place.
11:53Obviously they needed a more formalized structure, right?
11:57These hippies couldn't continue just like winging it every Sunday.
12:04So they needed some system of church governance.
12:09So now this is where the people that you know about, John, and the people I know about,
12:18this is when now they converge into this point of intersection.
12:24So there were five founders of the shepherding movement, as you've been teaching, and one
12:31of them is Derek Prince.
12:33So when these three young men needed a mentor, needed someone to kind of guide the way for
12:41them, in comes Derek Prince.
12:44So Derek Prince kind of became like a father figure.
12:50And one of the things that he brought with him from the shepherding movement was this
12:58idea of a single shepherd or single pastor, which would, who would now have absolute authority
13:07over everyone.
13:08I mentioned this body of people that were believing something so wrong.
13:13It was a false god.
13:14They were believing that this dead human guy was a god, right?
13:17Well, think of the people that I'm talking about.
13:20You've got Ern Baxter.
13:21You've got the Fort Lauderdale Five, which included Derek Prince.
13:25Then on the Jesus movement side, you had Lonnie Frisbee, who's working with Chuck Smith, John
13:31Wimber.
13:32Lonnie Frisbee, who stayed in an apartment owned by Derek Prince in Florida.
13:39This is all connected more than you can possibly imagine.
13:42And there's a reason for it.
13:44As we said in the last episode, the Jesus movement had grown until it was this, it was
13:51a train barreling down the tracks and nobody was really sure where it was headed.
13:55So you had these men who wanted to establish where it's headed.
13:58That's not a bad thing.
14:00I'll give them that it's probably a good idea to try to put some sort of boundaries.
14:05But what they did was they took this false god and many of the things that he said, and
14:13over time, they eventually stripped his name off of it.
14:16So Branham's name's not mentioned.
14:17It starts to become shepherding documentation.
14:22These conventions, you go to a convention and you might see literature that's published
14:27by Voice of Healing back then.
14:31Later it becomes Christ for the Nations.
14:32You've got T.L. Osborne with his training materials.
14:35That's entering into literature published by Eldon Purvis, who was one of the most vocal
14:42and public Christian identity leaders of his time, who was also instrumental in founding
14:49the shepherding movement.
14:51So he's working with them until they find out that he also was homosexual and he gets booted
14:56out.
14:57But all of this is connected.
14:59And like I said, Branham's name eventually gets wiped out, but it's wiped out from a movement
15:05that literally believed he was God in the flesh and he taught them the ways that they should
15:10behave like gods.
15:12Well, let me tell you, these three young men had no problem learning how to act like demigods.
15:21I'm going to say it that way.
15:22I don't think they ever saw themselves as gods.
15:25I don't think they would ever say that.
15:28So let's just use demigods.
15:31They were still partly human.
15:33I don't think I've ever heard any of them say that they were like Jesus incarnate, like
15:39William Branham did.
15:42But, you know, these three young men, again, Larry Tomczak, CJ Mahaney, Chae Ahn, they were
15:48very ambitious, very charismatic.
15:52And they were very interested in controlling the little kingdom that they had somehow almost
16:06by accident built.
16:09I don't think any of them realized when they were first saved, you know, as hippies, that
16:14what they were creating would morph into this, you know, that they were like, you know,
16:22I don't know, little machine, you know, because you already have this big machine, right,
16:28that Branham had created.
16:31But they had their own little machine in Washington, D.C. that at first was not connected.
16:37But I honestly feel like when these three men, you know, kind of like crashed into Derek
16:44Prince's big machine, it was like a perfect fit, if you know what I mean.
16:55All four men just developed this bond very quickly.
17:02And like I said, they were fast learners, John, because all of a sudden they were calling
17:08the shots, they were probably just in their late 20s.
17:12But now they were part of, again, that cutting edge movement.
17:18They already had, you know, thousands of young people all under the age of 30, right, hungry
17:28for more of God, you know, needing guidance.
17:33Because again, like we said before, they're not going to trust anybody above 30, right?
17:38Now, somehow these three men decided to trust Derek Prince.
17:42I don't know why, but, you know, that's, I guess that's the charisma of Derek Prince.
17:48But definitely all the younger ones under Larry, CJ and Che, you know, we were more than happy
17:59to comply.
18:01And that includes me.
18:03Hello.
18:04I was, yeah, I was 22 years old, I believe, when I was hired by PDI.
18:15And, you know, talking about authoritarianism, I just remember, like, Larry Tomczak, you know,
18:25who, again, he was my, he was my big boss, my, my direct bosses were the controller and
18:33the conference director.
18:34But every now and then, Larry would walk in and says, hey, Pia, are you doing anything?
18:39And of course, I was, you know, I was busy doing stuff.
18:43I was like, I really need a babysitter this afternoon.
18:49And I would be like, well, I have a deadline, blah, blah, blah, like, oh, no, no, no, let
18:54me talk to them.
18:55Yeah.
18:56And of course, right.
18:57My, my, my direct bosses couldn't say no to the great Larry Tomczak.
19:03So I would sometimes find my afternoons being filled with, you know, babysitting duties,
19:12picking up clothes from the dry cleaners.
19:15Sometimes, like, sometimes when they would have their, like, pastors meetings, you know,
19:21their directors meetings, I would make coffee for them, right?
19:27Like, that was not in my job description.
19:29But back then, I did not even know how to say no.
19:36Like, I honestly felt like these guys are, are very important.
19:43And, you know, we're, we're all people of destiny, right?
19:48They are fulfilling their great destinies.
19:51And hey, if I can make coffee, if I can take care of their children, you know, if, whatever,
19:59if, if, if I can, I, can I just share one little anecdote?
20:04Yeah.
20:05Um, so again, as assistant to the conference director, um, I was the one calling hotels
20:13and booking rooms whenever these guys would travel.
20:17Well, Larry, um, came back from a trip and he realized that he had left his electric razor
20:26in one of the hotel rooms.
20:29And he called me and said, could you call that hotel and have them ship my, ship my electric
20:37razor to the offices, right?
20:39And I thought to myself, you want me to just buy you one, like, you know, go down to drugstore
20:47and buy you one.
20:48I think that would be cheaper.
20:50Yeah.
20:51And he's like, no, no, no, no, no.
20:53That was a, that was a gift from my wife, Doris.
20:57That's special to me.
20:59So please, you know, go call the hotel.
21:03Well, of course I called the hotel and they're like, uh, no, like it's probably thrown out,
21:09right?
21:09Or whatever.
21:11Somebody's using it, you know?
21:13So, so I call him back and I say, I am so sorry.
21:18Like they don't have it anymore.
21:20And he just kind of went ballistic.
21:24He was so distraught.
21:27And honestly, that was the first time, John, that I started to see the feet of clay, right?
21:36Like, hmm, I, you know, I thought we were all supposed to be like Jesus, like, this is not
21:43very Christ-like behavior.
21:46So these were the things that I would observe, you know, behind the scenes.
21:52And, and I was also in charge of like photocopy.
21:56You know, back in the day, it was not as easy as the photocopy machines that we have now.
22:02You know, it took a long time.
22:05And, you know, and I would have these like thick manuals that I had to photocopy.
22:09So while I'm photocopying all these manuals and handouts for their leadership conferences,
22:15their pastors conferences, I would just read them, right?
22:20Like I would just read and like, let me see what these guys are talking about
22:26in these all important, you know, closed doors only type meetings, you know,
22:31no women allowed and, and, and mind you, most of these leaders, most of these pastors, we were PDI at
22:40one point, um, was overseeing 40 churches all over America.
22:45And you know what, one thing I, I remember, John, they were almost all white men.
22:53It never occurred to me before, but, you know, there was really no, no diversity.
23:01So, um, so anyway, I'm just reading through these manuals and you know what some of the concepts
23:12were that I picked up.
23:14And of course, it's also in the PDI magazines.
23:16I'll mention three.
23:18So one was of course, the five fold ministries.
23:22They were really unpacking the importance of, um, the five fold ministries.
23:29And so part of that, of course, number two is the rise of the modern day apostles and prophets.
23:38And, um, so by this time, you know, we did have the examples of William Seymour, you know,
23:45Charles Parham and I'm sure William Branham is somewhere there, like all these guys that
23:51we, you know, that they needed to emulate, like these guys, you know, laid the path.
23:56So now we're going to move that movement forward.
24:00So, so that was the second.
24:02The third one was of course, the idea that we are living in the last days and, um, and we
24:11all need to prepare for the rapture.
24:13We were all, you know, um, needing to build this church, this last days church, which was
24:23also the pure and spotless bride of Christ.
24:28So what does that mean in layman's terms?
24:32Right.
24:33It just meant that we had to be pure and holy as God was pure and holy.
24:39So here's the big question, John, how do we become pure and holy when we are just rotten,
24:47stinking sitters?
24:50So I'm going to ask you that question, John.
24:54Um, what do you think, what, what answer do you think they came up with?
24:58Well, I'm going to answer it in a long drawn out way because I want to paint an illustration
25:03that combines all of this.
25:05Because it makes sense if you understand the doctrine and again, people today, they don't
25:10know it because they don't, they can't look inside this box.
25:12This is a sealed Branamite cult box.
25:15But if you understand the doctrinal pieces, all of it makes sense.
25:19So you, you use the word demigods.
25:21That actually is the correct word.
25:24However, not a single person in it who is behaving like this would call themselves this
25:29because what they have instead is a manifestation of God.
25:34I mentioned the Bible, the Bible verses that are used as loaded language.
25:39So the big one is the Elijah Malachi four.
25:42Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the end of days.
25:46They believe that was Branam.
25:47Then they say when the son of man is revealed, that's when Branam is revealed as the God man.
25:54Well, once you accept the God man, then the God man dies, what happens?
25:59That was the question that was asked.
26:01So eventually what happened is that transition to, okay, the God man came and now God is manifesting
26:10himself in this Elijah form as a corporate body Elijah to the church.
26:15So we all have it, but we must have the five-fold ministry because there are different levels
26:21of manifestation.
26:22I've got a lot because I'm an apostle in the movement.
26:25You've got a little because you're just a rank and file member.
26:28So they created this pyramid, right?
26:30They're teaching how these modern apostles and prophets will have the power to deliver
26:36demons and they can forcibly do it with their own power.
26:39It's not simply, so there's a difference between biblical deliverance and their version.
26:45In biblical deliverance, you pray to God, God does it.
26:48Anybody can do it.
26:49You don't have to be an apostle.
26:51In that version, you have to have that pyramid and the guy at the top has the most power to
26:55do it and then it goes down the chain.
26:58So that spawned off Deliverance Ministries.
27:01Where it ended up is the story that I'll give you.
27:04I was in that movement and I encountered somebody in business and they said, how can you work in
27:12business with these people?
27:13And they're referring to the people of my cult, right?
27:16And I said, what do you mean?
27:17And he says, these people think that they own the world.
27:21They own the earth and we're their servants.
27:23And I said, how do you mean?
27:25And he started going through examples of how they were just so rude and they would ask of
27:30him things that they would ask nobody in their right mind would do this.
27:33He said, they're the worst possible customers you can have, these people.
27:38And he said, how are you not like this?
27:40Because I was never like that.
27:42And I stopped and thought about it and I went back through my memory of all of the people
27:46that I knew and I was like, oh my gosh, this guy's right.
27:49But I didn't want to say this move.
27:51I said, well, some people just have a personal issue and I left it at that.
27:56Now that I'm out and I'm starting to understand how this works, when you believe that you are
28:02God's gift to the earth and that the earth is about to end and that you're powered with
28:07this manifestation of God in you and those people don't have God in them and they're
28:12about to die, they become your servants in your head.
28:15So mentally it changes you and you start to look at people like this.
28:19Well, again, go back to the documentation that's spreading through all of these conventions.
28:24They're teaching that concept because they want it to spread through the movement that
28:31this is the corporate Elijah and we must perfect the church because once we do, we're out of
28:37here.
28:37The problem is it never happened because that's a works righteous faith.
28:42You can't faith.
28:42You can't do this.
28:43And so in the end, what they had was something that didn't work.
28:47So they started trying different ways to perfect the church.
28:51And that's, that's actually what birthed the new apostolic reformation.
28:55Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
29:00modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
29:05movements into the new apostolic reformation?
29:08You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
29:13william-branham.org.
29:15On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
29:21Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,
29:27audio, and digital versions of each book.
29:30You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
29:35movements.
29:36If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
29:41button at the top.
29:43And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
29:48listening to or watching.
29:49On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:54So, John, there's a verse that's been kind of running through my head as we're talking about
30:02all this, and it's Matthew 15, 14.
30:06And it goes like this, leave them.
30:10We need to leave them for they are all blind guides.
30:17And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.
30:25And now that I know what I know, thanks to you and your research and the other research
30:35I've done myself, man, like it all started again way back.
30:45And one blind guy is now leading this blind guy, and then it's leading this blind guy.
30:52And now we come to the 1980s, right?
30:56Where I am just like taking everything in like it's a gospel truth.
31:02And I don't realize that all of these men who are paying my salary, who are leading my church,
31:10and who are supposed to be like my spiritual fathers, are all blind.
31:18You know, none of us knew this.
31:20We were all duped.
31:22We would have these big PDI conferences where all the churches would come together under one roof.
31:30We called them Celebration International.
31:33And it was so big that we had to split it between the East Coast and the West Coast.
31:40And I would go to these conferences, and I would look at the sea of people.
31:46And all I could think of back then, John, was, wow, I am so honored that I get to be
31:54a possible
31:55little part of, you know, surely this is God's movement.
32:03This must be the most important movement that God himself is doing over planet Earth.
32:11And so, yeah, little did I know that we were all being dragged into the same pit.
32:20So I want to go back to what you're saying about Derek Prince and his deliverance, his methodology,
32:26right, for deliverance.
32:30I guess you could call him like the deliverance guru of the PDI movement.
32:37Everything he taught us about how to cast out demons, how to cleanse ourselves so that we
32:46become that pure and holy bride.
32:49Like, we just ate it all up.
32:52And there were, you know, class after class, like it was being taught from the top down,
32:59right?
33:03And, you know, it got to the point, John, where we did not want to lock eyes with any of
33:12these leaders, these pastors, you know, these PDI directors, because, again, we looked at
33:20them as like demigods.
33:22And somehow if we locked eyes with them, they might see something in us.
33:28And, you know, and I laugh about it, but I actually saw some of these leaders have private
33:38meetings in their offices.
33:43And, you know, I remember one of my co-employees, you know, he was called in.
33:50And then when he came out, he looked all white, like he looked like he was going to cry.
33:55And I'm like, are you OK?
33:57And then he's just like, well, I just got rebuked.
34:02Like, really?
34:03What'd you do?
34:04And, you know, I don't quite remember the exact details, but I think he was just questioning,
34:12you know, this guy eventually left.
34:15You know, whenever anyone dares to question the authority of these men or any of their
34:23doctrines or any of their, you know, practices.
34:29And honestly, you don't even need to be a Bible scholar.
34:35You can just like look at some of the verses and then compare it to what they're doing.
34:39And it's like it's glaring.
34:41It's like, oh, hold up a second.
34:43Like, it's not even biblical what you guys are teaching.
34:47And I think that's what this guy was doing.
34:50And so, you know, when you would dare to question or use your critical thinking, you are accused
35:00of having like a spirit of rebellion, right?
35:03Or being unsubmissive.
35:06And, you know, what's wrong with you?
35:08Just get with the program.
35:09And for women, sometimes it's what we would wear to church.
35:18Not me, of course, because I knew better.
35:22But, you know, I remember some of these younger girls.
35:26I mean, they're teenagers.
35:28And, you know, being told, oh, you're causing the men to stumble.
35:33So, you know, you have a spirit of Jezebel, you know, spirit of seduction.
35:39And you tell a poor, like, 18-year-old things like this.
35:43Like, you have these demonic spirits in you.
35:46I mean, it's going to cause a complex, right?
35:49Yeah.
35:49Like, you're just being an innocent, you know, young girl living in the 80s, you know, listening
35:56to Madonna.
35:57Like, have you seen what Madonna wears on stage?
36:00Like, for them, it's all part of the culture for the young girls.
36:08But in the eyes of these men, you know, oh, my gosh, we cannot have that.
36:13You know, you are bringing in demonic spirits.
36:17Like, it just went to the extreme.
36:19And so, yeah, I wanted to emphasize that, that the deliverance ministry that was brought
36:30in by Derek Prince very soon became one of the most important and prevalent ministries
36:37within the PDI system.
36:39And like you said, obviously, it went further when Cheon and Lou Angle started Gnar in 1994.
36:51You know, anytime I publish anything about Derek Prince, he apparently has this strange cult
36:57following that they will seek out an attack and try to destroy anything that could potentially
37:02be negative about him.
37:03Which is, it raises a few red flags that that exists.
37:07But when you consider all of the connections, it's not just that I'm talking about guilt
37:12by association.
37:13These are men who believe the same thing.
37:16They taught the same doctrines.
37:18You can go to the Full Gospel Businessmen's website and you can type in Derek Prince and
37:23William Branham.
37:23You can find Derek Prince in the lineup of ministers whose headline speaker was William Branham.
37:29Derek Prince is right there on stage with him, right?
37:32And if you knew how that worked, you can see these pictures.
37:35You can see all of these men sitting together in these folding chairs and then the guy comes
37:40out and speaks.
37:40They're all together, right?
37:43Well, carry that just a step further.
37:45So, one of the things that Branham taught that was apparently adopted by the charismatic
37:51movement was that the healing was actually like the bait on a hook.
37:56Branham would teach this over and over.
37:58He would say, I would cast the hook out and it was the healing.
38:02That would attract people to the faith.
38:03Once I got them, I snagged them.
38:05I basically, I recruited them, if you think in the cult language.
38:10But that concept, now that he's dead and the healing revival starts to fade away, what
38:16do you do with this?
38:17You have to shift.
38:18So, you start to believe that, okay, the healing is past.
38:21We have just seen Elijah come, the son of man come.
38:25We now have the corporate body, Elijah.
38:28So, what you're talking about in the 80s, this is a very important shift.
38:32And you have to understand all of these different streams of doctrine that all come together
38:37for this shift.
38:39You're starting to introduce the discipleship doctrine.
38:42We need to disciple the Jesus people movement.
38:44We're bringing in the accountability doctrines.
38:48We need people who are accountable to the leaders.
38:50Otherwise, this movement is going to go just crazy.
38:53So, therefore, we must also bring in the spiritual covering doctrine.
38:57You need somebody who's covering you from all of this evil that's in the world.
39:01With that came pastoral authority, the apostolic oversight.
39:06You had all of this weird thing that's starting to develop.
39:09And in the end, what it is, is a means to control a mass number of people who have just
39:15come into this movement.
39:16How do you control them?
39:18You create a hierarchy.
39:19We're the generals.
39:20You're the rank and file members.
39:22That's exactly what happened.
39:24And it goes back to something that you said.
39:27One of the doctrines that Branham taught but was not original to Branham was this idea of
39:32perfection.
39:34We, as an end-time church, we must be perfect.
39:37And they would use passages grossly out of context.
39:41Be ye therefore perfect.
39:42That kind of passage.
39:44They would use that passage to say and mean that our church can't go away in the rapture until
39:49we are perfect.
39:51And so, who's not perfect?
39:53I remember hearing sermons like, which one of you is doing it?
39:56Which one of you is?
39:57And so, what happens in the congregation, everybody starts looking at each other, trying to find
40:01who's got the secret sins, right?
40:05And another thing, this is really critical, too.
40:10It's very important because my family was very close with the Branham family.
40:15And Branham did this.
40:17He put on this air that he could peer into your very soul.
40:20And we have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt he was lying through his teeth, but he would
40:25give you that impression that when he's looking at you, he knows your secret thoughts.
40:30He did this, and he did this to a very excessive level.
40:33His cult became very destructive.
40:36I won't say that the other leaders did it then, but remember, this is the guy who was
40:42the Son of Man, and now that's starting to spread through the movement.
40:45Even those who weren't in a heresy belief of this, they would still go back and say, well,
40:52he spearheaded the revival.
40:53He's the leader of the healing revival.
40:55This is what he did, and it worked.
40:57Maybe we should do it, too.
40:59I think that's how it happened.
41:02And so, there's a method to the madness that I have.
41:06I don't know if you've seen the different series of podcasts that I do.
41:09One of them, which doesn't get as much recognition as it should, is with Chino Ross, who was out
41:16of the Hobart Freeman movement.
41:18He is a strong example of what this type of documentation that they would publish, the
41:24literature they published, would do.
41:26It spins off destructive cults.
41:28Hobart Freeman would go get this literature telling him how he can perfect his church.
41:33He tries to do it, and they went off into, several people died in his church.
41:38It's horrific.
41:39But that was the shift that was happening in the 1980s.
41:42Wow.
41:44Yeah, no, I am starting to connect the dots.
41:48And the more I do that, really, the scarier it gets, because it is just downright dangerous.
41:58You know, last time I was here, I said, you know, it's one thing for these false teachings
42:06to harm our minds, but it was more than just our minds or our ability to think critically.
42:15It was our souls, you know, our emotions, and our physical bodies.
42:21And so I want to circle back to that book that I mentioned the last time that was written
42:28by Larry Tomczak.
42:29And if you want to bring up the cover of that book again.
42:33So it's God, the Rod, and Your Child's Bod by Larry Tomczak, which became a bestseller,
42:40by the way.
42:41And it's still being sold today.
42:43I checked.
42:45I would not recommend it, but it was required reading for all the PDI churches.
42:53And I think I mentioned, yeah, last time that my own husband at that time used it, and he
43:03would use the rod to supposedly discipline, you know, my two-year-old.
43:09But he would do it excessively because he could not control his anger.
43:14Now, of course, Larry used that same method as well.
43:22And so this is the point where I want to bring up a lawsuit.
43:29This was a 2012 lawsuit that was brought about by seven women and one male plaintiff.
43:39And I'm just going to read directly from public records because I don't want us to get in
43:47trouble.
43:48So I'm just going to read what is out there publicly.
43:53So in this lawsuit, these plaintiffs allege that they had all suffered severe mental, emotional,
44:06physical, and spiritual harm while participating within the PDI network.
44:14The lawsuit was filed in October 2012.
44:18And it alleged that several church leaders, which again involves Larry Tomczak, the director,
44:29and CJ Mahaney, the senior pastor of Covenant Life Church, that they failed to properly report
44:40child sexual abuse, they protected the alleged abusers, and they participated in a pattern of
44:49concealing abuse from civil authorities.
44:53Some legal observers and commentators at that time argued that there appeared to be an institutional
45:02effort to avoid scandal and to protect ministry leadership.
45:08And of course, all the defendants, they denied it, right?
45:11They denied any wrongdoing.
45:13They denied any kind of church cover up.
45:16And it is important to note that the case didn't go anywhere, not because the allegations were proven
45:25to be false, but it's because many of the claims were dismissed on procedural grounds, particularly
45:34Maryland's statute of limitations.
45:37The court ruled that many of the plaintiffs had waited too long under then existing law to bring
45:46their claims.
45:47Several jurisdictional issues were also raised.
45:52So I bring up this lawsuit because I want to share one particular case.
46:00One of the plaintiffs, her name, according to public records, is Carla Coe, right?
46:09So this is to protect her identity.
46:13Again, I'm going to read straight from public records.
46:17Carla Coe accused Larry Tomczak of physical and sexual abuse over a 25-year period, beating
46:27her on her bare buttocks, and assaulting her with plastic and wooden spoons.
46:36This is a direct quote.
46:38I mentioned Carla because I actually knew her when she was a young girl, and I still know her.
46:49She and I are still in contact.
46:51In fact, before this podcast, I asked her permission.
46:54I asked if it was okay for me to mention this 2012 lawsuit and her case in particular.
47:02And the reason why I wanted to end our discussion today with this lawsuit is because I just want
47:13to remind our audience that this is more than just theological debates that we're doing here,
47:22right?
47:22This is more than just a discussion on doctrines and false teachings and et cetera, et cetera,
47:30stemming from, again, randomism to latter rain movement to the PDI movement and now the NAR movement.
47:38If all it was was just an intellectual descent from the Bible, then, okay, that's one thing.
47:48I probably wouldn't be here, John, because I'm not intellectual enough.
47:53I don't know my, you know, I'm not a theologian, right?
47:57You would have a different guest if that was your intent, but I am here on your podcast because
48:07I want to point out that we're talking about real lives that were ruined.
48:12We're talking about real people who are still recovering after decades of abuse within these
48:21very toxic systems.
48:24And, yeah, one of them is this poor young woman, Carla Cole, who is still, you know, feeling the effects,
48:37the negative effects on her life, on her body, on her soul, you know, on her mind.
48:46And, you know, and thank goodness, like, I know she's gone through therapy.
48:52She's still going through therapy.
48:53Like, I'm happy to say, like, she's in a much, much better place now.
48:58But I really worry about other people that were affected by these movements, John, that
49:06some of them have never recovered.
49:09Some of them have walked away from their faith.
49:11They've walked away from all churches, and they basically have lost trust, not just in
49:21the human beings, but in God himself.
49:24And that, for me, is what brings me a lot of sorrow, you know, because they once knew the
49:32truth.
49:33You know, they were once on fire for Jesus, just like I was as a 19-year-old.
49:39Thankfully for me, you know, God in his mercy, you know, allowed me to start reading the Bible
49:47for myself and really analyzing, you know, what was true and what wasn't true when I was
49:54a part of these systems.
49:56And so I just want to end there, John, that I really hope that what we're doing here will
50:02make a difference, even if it's just one person listening to this and they're realizing, like,
50:09wow, I was a part of PDI or even SGM.
50:13Now there's no more PDI.
50:16They've made the name a little more, you know, churchy sounding, right?
50:22Sovereign Grace Ministries.
50:23But again, even SGM, like, this is their roots, you know.
50:30I know Chase is not a part of it anymore.
50:34I don't believe Larry is a part of it anymore.
50:38I think he left in the 90s.
50:40But I'm pretty sure CJ Mahaney is still part of SGM.
50:44So, yeah, I say all that to say, I really hope that the scales are starting to come off
50:54the eyes of some of your viewers.
50:57And going back to that verse, you know, leave, let's leave these blind guides, because these
51:05blind guides are leading us to a place none of us want to, none of us want to go to.
51:13So, I've said this to you offline, and now I'll say it publicly.
51:17Out of all of the series that I'm doing right now, I feel like this is the most important
51:21for this reason.
51:22All of the other series, we're building up the background knowledge that you need to
51:27understand what we're talking about.
51:29I've spent over a decade doing this.
51:32I've talked about many different doctrines and histories and many different things.
51:37And I'll say it like this.
51:40The book that you mentioned, the lawsuit that you mentioned, these are symptoms.
51:45This is not the disease.
51:47This is the symptom of the disease.
51:49And think of some of the doctrines that we've covered historically in the podcast.
51:55Authority is sacred.
51:56That's something that was flowing through this movement.
51:59Submission is protection.
52:01Rebellion is dangerous.
52:03The church has been infected.
52:05We must perfect the church.
52:06We must bring the church to a rapture-ready state.
52:10Obedience is godly.
52:12The leaders know best.
52:13I mean, I could go on and on and on through all of these doctrines that combined make exactly
52:19the background that is necessary to produce a book like this or to have a lawsuit like this.
52:25And it all comes back to this moment in time when Branham has died.
52:30They really believed he was God in the flesh.
52:32They really believed this.
52:34And so they said, what do we do with this?
52:36He's gone.
52:37He has shown us the way.
52:38What did he show us?
52:39And then they tried to dissect what he showed them.
52:42And as I've explained and proven in all of the podcasts that I've done, Branham's doctrine
52:48was so conflicting that you end up with total confusion because one guy will go down this
52:54pathway, the other guy the polar opposite, and they're both teaching Branhamism.
52:59And that was really the problem here.
53:01You had different movements going different ways, arguing about which was right.
53:06And it wasn't just Branham's doctrine they were using.
53:09They were using others from the Healing Revival movement who were also confused because they
53:14were in the same movement.
53:15But in the end, where it ended up was the Christians must submit to the pastors and the wives to
53:23the husbands, the younger believers to the mature believers.
53:25There was this pattern of submission that was established by this movement.
53:31This is the central point in time, 1980s, when all of this is happening.
53:35Remember, John Wimber is working with these guys at this time.
53:38Yes, he may have later said some of these guys were bad, but this was the movement in
53:43the 1980s.
53:44So as we dissect this machine, as we continue to go, we're going to show how all of that
53:50background created the mess that we're in today.
53:53And it is a huge, huge mess.
53:56Absolutely.
53:56I look forward to our future podcast.
54:00So thanks for having me today, John.
54:02Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
54:05the web.
54:06You can find us at william-branham.org and piahugoministries.com.
54:10For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,
54:15From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:22We'll see you in the next few weeks.
54:23We'll see you in the next few weeks.
54:27Bye-bye.
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