Otis Odell on the human side of housing

HousingWire

What if the future of housing isn't just about building more homes, but building better ones? Crazy idea, right?   On this episode of Power House, Zeb Lowe sits down with Otis Odell, National Housing Sector Leader at HED, to discuss how thoughtful design shapes well-being, community and the way people experience home. Drawing on a career that spans carpentry, custom homebuilding and national housing design, Odell explains why details like natural light, outdoor space and flexible layouts can have an outsized impact on quality of life.   The conversation also explores modular construction, affordability and why solving today's housing challenges will require rethinking not just how many homes we build, but how we design and deliver them.   Related to the episode:   ⁠Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn⁠  https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/  Otis Odell  https://hed.co/people/otis-odell/  HED  https://hed.co/   Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.  https://www.housingwire.com/newsletter/   The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00We talk about housing in terms of cost and supply, but rarely ask what the place you live does to

00:06the person who you are.

00:07Today's guest is Otis O'Dell, National Housing Sector Leader at HED, where he spent over 30 years designing homes guided

00:15by one belief,

00:16where people live shapes their well-being, their stability, and their quality of life.

00:22Today we're exploring what thoughtful housing design actually looks like.

00:37All right, Otis, thank you for joining me.

00:39I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me on.

00:41Yes, sir. We were just talking briefly before we got to Roland, and I think we've already got some common

00:47ground established through music and guitars.

00:50This was my first thing that I wanted to speak with you about anyways, and it came up organically in

00:57our kind of pre-show conversation,

00:59which is I always like to know where people, you know, their path into the housing industry at large.

01:07And just through casual conversation, we have a similar path.

01:10You started your career as a carpenter, I believe, during college, and then eventually ended up funding your own firm

01:19that you ran for 15 or 16 years.

01:22And now you're the National Housing Sector Leader at HED.

01:27So I wanted to see if you could explore that or share with us your housing journey and housing construction

01:35architecture journey with us.

01:37Well, that could take a while, Zeb, so we'll see what I can.

01:41I'll jump in and cut me off.

01:43So I took a gap year after high school and went to work in an architect's office as an office

01:50boy, and it was about a 35- or 40-person firm.

01:54And about halfway through that, a contractor came in and told me to get my butt out in the field

01:58and gave me a job site and said,

02:01don't tell them I sent you.

02:02And I showed up over there, and they hired me, and I started building multifamily apartment buildings, framing, as a

02:14framing crew member,

02:16walking plate with a brand-new tool belt.

02:20And, boy, I got laughed at until that tool belt got broken in.

02:24And then I went off to college and continued working in construction when I had my breaks, so during spring

02:36break and summer break,

02:37and ultimately started a little company called Tranquility Woodworks.

02:42It was the 70s after all.

02:44And we built a number of projects, both interior trim and framing-wise,

02:51but really started to focus on the interior trim side of things and started building some furniture

02:57and then got work-study and built sets for the theater department and still graduated.

03:05And I was still working in construction because it was just too lucrative and finally said, okay, I need to

03:14follow through.

03:14This was my goal to be working in architecture.

03:18And so I jumped into the architecture profession, cut my salary in half, and then continued working in architecture for

03:30many years.

03:31And I worked primarily for a firm initially for a firm that was all developer, housing developer clients.

03:42So just housing of all kinds, multifamily housing mostly, some single-family housing as well.

03:49But so I did that for a number of years, 10 years, then went on to a bigger firm, got

03:56to work on some very high-profile work,

03:58got to team up with Michael Graves for the Denver Central Library Project.

04:05And after about five years with that firm, I quit a really secure position and opened up my own firm,

04:13had a 16-year run in the Denver market, all housing, all the time, affordable housing, market rate housing, all

04:21multifamily housing.

04:22And then 2008 and through 2010, things got a little dicey in that line of work.

04:32And I ended up, my 16-person firm was down to about seven or eight.

04:38I sold that to one of my employees.

04:40And I moved to California, where ultimately I connected with HED and currently serve as the national sector leader for

04:53our housing studio.

04:54And I am back in Denver, and I do go to most all of our offices around the country.

05:02You know, sharing some of that story, I'm sure that you've read The Fountainhead.

05:09I have.

05:10Of course, of course.

05:11And it reminds me, one of my favorite passages, scenes in The Fountainhead is whenever he meets,

05:19he meets his, it becomes one of his best friends, his electrician.

05:23And he is walking through the job site and he tells the electrician, it has to do, I think it's

05:28conduit or something that he needs to wrap around, an I-beam, et cetera.

05:34And the electrician is complaining about it.

05:36And so the architect, he, because he had spent his formative years actually on a job site doing every trade

05:45possible as a plumber, an electrician, a carpenter, a welder,

05:48he used a cutting torch and like cut a hole through an I-beam and like ran the conduit through

05:53there or something along those lines, right?

05:57But he taught this master electrician something.

05:59And there's this kind of age-old, you know, relationship and an inherent conflict between the designer and the builder

06:08that you see pretty much in any industry and across all spectrums.

06:12And I, and in that moment, the electrician, you know, gained this respect and they were kind of friends moving

06:18forward.

06:19And I find it that in this industry, I have a background as a lender, as a loan originator, but

06:26I put myself through school and my master's, starting off doing roofs and as a framer.

06:32And then I, myself, I worked through up to becoming building cabinets and doing finished trim carpentry.

06:40And everyone that I talked to in this industry, whether there is a real estate, an architect, design, lending, that

06:48is actually, you know, any home builder that has actually built a home or has actually swung a hammer, there

06:55seems to be a, I don't know, a deeper, a deeper connection into what they do and why they, why

07:03they do it.

07:04And do you feel that personally, like, do you, does it connect you to the things that you designed and

07:10the love that you have for designing these spaces for people in a way that you think you wouldn't have

07:15if you didn't have those experiences?

07:17Yeah, I definitely think so.

07:19So, you know, my role has certainly changed over the years.

07:23When I was a project architect and very engaged during the construction process, going out to the job site and

07:32connecting with the trades was something that I really enjoyed.

07:37I still enjoy it.

07:38I just don't get to do it quite as often.

07:40I'm in a position of strategy and other kinds of roles at this point.

07:46I do think it connects you with the team and gets you the respect that is really, and trust, actually,

07:57that is really necessary for a partnership between an architect and a design team and the builder,

08:05which I think is a really critical part of making sure you get something built and you get it built

08:10correctly.

08:11And just as I earn the respect, they earn respect from me as well.

08:18I rely on the trades to really understand what their craft is all about and to come up with the

08:29right way of doing things or the best way of doing things.

08:32So I am learning from them as much as I hope they are learning from me.

08:39I've done, you and I haven't met previously.

08:43And so I did a little background digging on you and I wanted to learn a little more about you

08:49before we had this conversation.

08:50And there was a line that was attributed to you.

08:54I can't remember if it was on LinkedIn or from, I've watched some of your interviews on YouTube previously.

08:58But something along the lines of providing a person with a place to live is truly life-changing.

09:05And I'm curious to know, when did that conviction first take root for you?

09:11When I got really involved in affordable housing work, where the work that we were involved in gave people homes

09:28whose previous home was the street.

09:30And the transformation that you could see occurring, even going back to those developments and after a year and seeing

09:45what transformation had happened to the residents.

09:50It's just so important, providing people with homes, particularly those who have really had some struggles along the way.

10:05Was there a particular project that really solidified that?

10:09There were several, actually, and I'm trying to remember.

10:13When I had my own group, we did a lot of affordable housing work.

10:17And I don't recall the specific project.

10:25There were many of them.

10:26We worked for housing authorities in different municipalities around the Denver area.

10:32A lot of work there.

10:36And then, actually, when I first went to California, I worked for a housing authority in Fresno.

10:46And the executive director was somebody who I had known from Colorado.

10:51Colorado, we were able to have some community meetings.

10:56And you don't know who necessarily is going to be the resident of the work that you're doing.

11:03The people that we were talking to in the community were expected to be residents there.

11:11And listening to them and hearing what was important to them really resonated with me.

11:18And that's a project that I'll remember forever, where we got some direct feedback from likely residents.

11:27And then we're able to follow through afterwards and see the fruits of our labor.

11:34You know, we talk a lot, I would say primarily, we talk about housing in terms of units and costs,

11:42supply.

11:43You work at this really interesting intersection of design and livability, I guess.

11:53What do you think we are missing from an industry culture standpoint whenever we frame the housing conversation purely around

12:04the numbers, supply units, costs, et cetera?

12:09I do think it's short-sighted sometimes to do it that way.

12:13I think it's getting better.

12:16And maybe that's because of what I'm involved in now.

12:21I just think that design is not given enough attention.

12:27I think there are so many things about design that lead to this whole idea of comfort and happiness.

12:36And they can be very subtle things.

12:38They can be pretty major things.

12:42So things like, are we going to put living units, apartments on the ground floor?

12:52Does that feel safe?

12:53Does that feel secure in all the neighborhoods?

12:56Or is it better to have a different use down there?

13:00Maybe it's the amenities.

13:01Maybe it's a different use altogether, a retail use.

13:05Maybe it's parking.

13:06Maybe it's something else.

13:07And getting the resident off the ground floor where there's a better feeling of security and safety.

13:15And it can be as simple, Zeb, as a paint job.

13:21I remember going into job sites, talking with my clients ad nauseum about how affordable housing, the painters go in

13:33and they get the spray and they tape things off and they just spray everything white.

13:39And if you could paint the walls sort of a nice warm mushroom color and then have white painted trim

13:55and you sent a person into that apartment versus into one that was all painted white.

14:02And assuming it was furnished and all that sort of thing, you might not even be able to tell what

14:09it was that was making you feel better.

14:12But it is real.

14:15And the developers don't do it because they have to do a makeover.

14:20And now they've got to come in and tape everything off.

14:23And there's more labor.

14:25Maybe what they're missing is the fact that that tenant is.

14:32Is going to sign that lease over and over and over again and not move out.

14:40Because of some of the design features, whether it's a paint job or the idea of security and safety, access

14:50control, getting off the ground floor, connection to the outdoors, whether it's a balcony or the window size.

15:00Again, back to the paint.

15:02A place for an accent wall, a place for art, a place to put my mementos.

15:08Because that's what makes a house a home is putting up grandma's thing that she gave to me that means

15:17a lot to me.

15:18Is there a place for me to put that?

15:20These small, subtle, nuanced design features that might cost just a bit more, but keep that tenant leasing from you

15:34year after year after year.

15:37So I think that's getting better.

15:41I think developers are paying a little bit more attention to design.

15:46But I've been around long enough to see many developers ignore those kinds of things just to get a quantity

15:56of units out there and get it rented and then deal with the turnover as it comes.

16:02Yeah, I think it's intentionality, right?

16:04And that's not something that you can, just as creatures, humans can, it's a vibe that you get from people.

16:13Whenever someone is being authentic or they are being inauthentic around you, you can sense that.

16:18You absorb it.

16:20And I think the same thing speaks to design, right?

16:22The small things speak to intention.

16:27Why are we making these choices, right?

16:29And even the smallest choices, if they are tied to enhancing the human experience, you can sense it.

16:38You kind of can absorb that.

16:39I'm curious to know, what are your, who are your biggest architectural influences?

16:48Well, I'm a huge fan of Lake Flato.

16:53And it's interesting.

16:55They do some residential work.

16:58I love how they use materials.

17:00I love how they respond to environment.

17:04I think they're really talented.

17:06They evoke a culture that is something that people want to be a part of.

17:13And I think they're very good designers.

17:16I really enjoy the work of Frank Lloyd Wright, of course.

17:21Most architects probably do, even though he was who he was and had certain things about him that I think

17:29were challenging for clients.

17:31The outcome of his work was just lovely.

17:37And I really appreciate the built-in nature of some of the spaces and how the furniture was part of

17:45the architecture.

17:47So I think those are some really good influences for me.

17:53Whenever I was looking more into HED, there is language there where you talk about wellness-driven and biophilic design

18:05in housing.

18:07And I, the average listener of this podcast, including myself, that is not a term that I'm incredibly familiar with.

18:14So can you explain and teach us what that is, what that means, and then tie that into what that

18:21actually looks like inside of a building?

18:24Yeah.

18:25So the wellness thing is maybe a little bit more obvious.

18:28And biophilic is a strong connection to nature and a strong connection to bringing nature into the building and also

18:38connecting with nature outside of the building.

18:40So it can be as simple as, and I talked about this before, a strong connection to the outside.

18:48Is there an outdoor space?

18:50Is there a balcony?

18:52Is there a common outdoor space?

18:55Are the windows big enough?

18:56I used to have a rule in my firm where every space really had to try and have two windows.

19:03So you had a larger window that met the practical needs, but then a smaller window that offered a separate

19:09view.

19:10It could be a smaller window that was placed higher in the wall so you could still furnish underneath it,

19:15but you could look up and see the sky and or the tops of the trees.

19:18It's a connection to nature.

19:20We, in many of our buildings, we will, in the entry lobby, have a plant-forward design where there is

19:31live planting there, and it is doing all kinds of things in terms of carbon dioxide and oxygen and visual

19:43connection.

19:44Those things are directly related to wellness.

19:48More over, you start to think about your amenity package for a multifamily apartment building and the wellness features that

19:58you start to think about.

19:59It can be anything from yoga spaces, meditation spaces, certainly fitness spaces that are available to the residents that support

20:10and nurture wellness.

20:12Could be pets.

20:14Maybe there is a resident who has the need for a support animal and having spaces that accommodate pets so

20:26that that becomes part of your lifestyle, your wellness.

20:31So indoor planters, outdoor green spaces are all part of the biophilic approach.

20:41I know that there's a ton of research that supports that housing instability is a key factor, depression, anxiety, and

20:52health burden is linked to housing instability.

20:58But I'm curious, from your vantage point as an architect, how much of that health burden is not obviously instability,

21:08but also versus the quality and design of the space that someone ends up in?

21:13Well, I think that the things I'm talking about with regard to design, and it's not only design, but design

21:20is so important, do start to impact and have a positive impact on your mental health.

21:28I think also, from a business standpoint, the property management approach is critically important.

21:38If a tenant feels like if a tenant feels like they are being taken care of, if something is broken

21:45or if there is an issue with, I don't know, the heating or the cooling or the hot water or

21:52an appliance or whatever, having a responsive project management approach can be very helpful.

22:00Now, this tenant is not having to stress over, oh, my gosh, how am I going to take care of

22:06this or, oh, my gosh, I can't get anybody's attention to focus on this.

22:10And those are really important aspects of a person's, you know, living environment.

22:17So it's the design part that addresses wellness, connects you to the outside, creates a very comfortable place for you

22:31to be where you can put your things around you and then know that someone is paying attention.

22:38Someone has your back. Someone is taking care of things when they start to malfunction.

22:46Really important stuff.

22:48You mentioned this earlier with some of the one of the earlier projects that really kind of solidified the importance

22:54and the fulfillment that you get out of designing these spaces.

23:00You were mentioning engaging with community.

23:05What do residents say that they need most that architects and developers tend to tend to overlook?

23:12I think the number one thing that comes up in my experience is safety.

23:17They want security and safety.

23:19That, among all things, is what a home needs to provide for its residents.

23:25It comes up all the time.

23:27And yet here we we we we try and address it in ways that doesn't necessarily include barriers.

23:37So let's do it in a way that doesn't have a big wall between you and the rest of the

23:43world.

23:43Let's do it in a way that is more subtle and whether it's access controls or, you know, audio visual

23:51systems or other sorts of things.

23:56That really is an important part of a tenant's experience, whether whatever income level they have, whatever income level they're

24:06from, they can, you know, be economically challenged or they can be in a luxury situation.

24:15And still, that becomes a really important aspect of the building.

24:21Right.

24:22Right.

24:23I wanted to switch gears.

24:25One of the things that I saw about you is your advocacy for modular homes, modular construction.

24:33And you've been talking about that for, I would say, at least long before it was fashionable.

24:39I mean, you could argue this night, but it's still not fashionable because it has this the stigma attached to

24:45it.

24:45And so a couple of things, actually, I want to pick your brain about what did you see in modular

24:52construction early, early on that made you a believer or that made you feel like there was this was something

25:00to really invest in or to to to to speak about?

25:06Yeah, great question.

25:07I got involved in modular construction as a young architect.

25:13It was the late 80s.

25:16And I was working for a developer for a firm that did a lot of developer work and in the

25:23in Colorado.

25:25And we were doing housing in the mountains, in the ski resorts.

25:32So in the ski resorts, you need to be off the streets in November and you're not going to get

25:38back on the streets until April.

25:40So you have a very short building season.

25:46And what a neat idea that you could be building your building or components of it, modular components of it

25:54in a factory somewhere and then shipping them to the site and being able to work within that short building

26:03season to deliver a building.

26:05So that was my first sort of realization that this this makes sense in certain situations.

26:14And then as it evolved and it did.

26:20And I saw many of these companies go out of business and then come back and then go out.

26:25And it was very cyclical in that regard.

26:30What you started to realize is that when you're building a component in a factory, you have a roof over

26:37your head, you have less waste.

26:40I actually worked in a modular factory for one summer because I wanted to understand it as best I could.

26:48And as a laborer, as a framer, you got to position yourself above your work without being on a ladder

26:58three stories in the air.

26:59So your life wasn't at risk as much as it would be if you were, you know, walking plate three

27:07stories high.

27:08But you position yourself in a more comfortable way to be able to get the work done.

27:13And it's so it's safer.

27:16You're not in the rain.

27:18You're not in the direct sun.

27:20You're more productive.

27:22So you get a better quality product.

27:25You just do.

27:27And so now you have building in a controlled environment.

27:31You can really take 30 to 40 percent out of your schedule.

27:36While you're building these modules in the factory, someone else is putting the utilities and the concrete and the foundations

27:45in place.

27:46So that work is happening simultaneously.

27:49And now you can bring the modules out to the site and you can set them about seven or 10

27:57of them a day, depending on your setting crew.

28:00And in some cases, even more.

28:02I think there is a place for it.

28:04I don't think it's the right answer for every housing development or developer.

28:10It takes a lot of work.

28:13It takes a lot of coordination that has to happen early, which is how most projects should be delivered, but

28:22they aren't.

28:23The modular delivery forces you to do that.

28:26You have to do it.

28:27You have to make decisions about interior finishes.

28:30You have to make decisions about where you're going to have your connection points.

28:35Coordinate that with the general contractor.

28:38Coordinate that with the fabricator.

28:40So it's a different animal and it has its place.

28:45It can get you to market quicker and it can save dollars if it's thought through carefully.

28:53And so it becomes a good solution for the affordable housing developer in some instances and in other cases where

29:03you've got short building seasons.

29:06That's what I was going to ask your follow up with this.

29:08You know, you said it could be it's a great solution for certain situations.

29:12What situations are they best suited for?

29:15Well, you know, I gave you the example of the building in the mountains and that's still be it's still

29:22a solution.

29:23I just saw about six or eight months ago, a project, a big workforce housing project that was built in

29:31Winter Park, Colorado.

29:33And it was a modular delivery and they were able to get it done outside of the worst weather months.

29:41The other one that makes sense, and I was on a panel up in Sacramento earlier this year with another

29:49gentleman who worked for a school district and a school district in California.

29:56There's surplus land and they are using that surplus land to build housing for their staff.

30:03And it also has a timeline.

30:10It's not directly associated with the school year.

30:14However, it's great if you can get a lot of that construction and disruption done while school's not in session.

30:24So you can get a significant amount of the work done over the summer when school's not in session and

30:31you're less disruptive to, you know, the drop off, the kids in the playground.

30:37I mean, all the things that are happening in the school year.

30:40So there's another example of it.

30:42And I would say that in higher education, in the student housing world, there you do have to deliver by

30:51a certain date or you're going to miss it by a year.

30:54And that just can't happen.

30:55So where you've got the pressure for a short building schedule and you want to get to market quickly, modular

31:05becomes a solution for, I think, the higher ed institutions.

31:10What are you seeing on a design front on, like, what is most promising with modular construction as it ties

31:21to advancements in design or improvements in design?

31:25Well, I think you've got to really get creative.

31:28The factory is going to try and build something that's really regular and really standard and really repeatable.

31:36And it's a box.

31:38And now how you stack them and what kinds of things you add on after they've been stacked in the

31:45field become the opportunities for pushing the design envelope.

31:51And then how you're going to use materials most of the time, the boxes, not always, but the boxes will

31:58come out of the factory and they are, they have the building wrap on them, like the building paper and

32:05like the Tyvek, for example, that is used as a weather barrier.

32:10And then the final siding or brick or stucco or whatever exterior material is applied in the field most often.

32:21Again, not always.

32:23And so you can start to get creative there.

32:27And you can start to, again, add things on so where it might be more challenging in the factory to

32:36do, let's just say, a bay window, for example.

32:39It might be a simpler solution to pre-build that in the field and put it on in the field

32:48as part of the site work so that you can start to articulate the building more and create design work

32:58that has all those kind of characteristics and features that you see in site built work.

33:07You know, what you're, from a design standpoint, do you, I'm curious to know if you create creativity slash design

33:17perspective, if that's what you find particularly attractive about those.

33:24Because when it comes to creativity, oftentimes the working within these kind of like fixed parameters, that's like, that's, that

33:32is your chance to be creative and to show, and to show your, your skill or your craft as a

33:38designer or as a creator, right?

33:39Like if I give you, if I, if I allow you 300, you know, types of paint to paint a

33:46masterpiece versus I give you five color options to paint a masterpiece, right?

33:52You're, you're more easily able to illustrate your, your creativity through restraint, right?

33:57Through those, you know, I've got five colors that I'm going to paint with as opposed to 500 colors.

34:01Does that like concept kind of carry over from a design standpoint?

34:05It truly does, right?

34:06What can I do with these five different options that I have to push the envelope?

34:13I think the other thing, by the way, you know, design is what you're looking at visually, but it's also

34:18about performance.

34:19And I think that building performance.

34:22So I think that in a factory setting, you are able to achieve a higher level of insulation, you can

34:32do a number of things that improve the sort of resiliency, sustainability, environmental soundness of, of a building in a

34:42factory that you might not be able to get as cleanly in the field.

34:47So I think they're, you know, design takes on different, different definitions there.

34:52Do you see, and I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the advancements of technology and, and

34:58how quickly you can design things and swap options in and out, as opposed to like the old draft days,

35:04that, that the, the advancements in, I guess, let's say just design technology, attracting, attracting more talent and attracting a

35:15different type or higher caliber.

35:18And, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the design technology, but also the construction technology and

35:30getting those two things married and getting them effectively.

35:35put together in a collaborative way because you know you're seeing robots build some of these

35:42things now too in in the factories and and understanding that you're going to have a cad

35:47file of or a bim file of some sort that gets fed into some robotics and is what drives the

35:55movement of the robot to put the pieces in a certain location or place or way

36:01so yeah getting a different kind of design thinking um is is part of it yeah um well so i

36:12had a whole

36:13other topic that i wanted to uh explore with you which means i'm gonna have to get you back on

36:18at

36:18a later date to to talk about it has had to do with the uh with employer provided uh housing

36:24you guys

36:25uh the your your company has published uh some interesting content around that but we don't

36:30have we're getting over our limit we don't have time for that uh but i do i have but i

36:34do have a

36:35a one last question for you not not to date you but you've been designing homes for for places

36:42designing places people live for over 30 years and from where you're sitting your perspective if you

36:48could change one thing not not about architecture but about the way that our um our the way our

36:55culture and and i mean like our infrastructure our policy treats housing what would it be just one

37:03thing i think with all due respect to the contracting community if all you have is a hammer everything

37:14looks like a nail so explain that we've been doing things the exact same way for hundreds of years

37:24years in terms of building residential buildings we just have to start thinking about it differently

37:34and thinking about designing it differently thinking about building it differently

37:41so that we can address these issues of time and money and i believe there's a way to get it

37:51done

37:51and i think we've got to come together and just start to think very differently about how we deliver

37:59housing right that's an excellent excellent answer um otis i thank you so much for uh for coming on and

38:07sharing your time with us and i will be in touch very soon because there like i said there's

38:11a whole other topic that we didn't even get a chance to uh to tackle today and i look forward

38:15to doing

38:16it with you i look forward to that too there's a lot to talk about there and uh you you

38:21know i'll just

38:21say hed is uniquely qualified there because of our um cross-sector collaborations so when employers come

38:30that are health care based or school based we come together and it's a great great thing i look forward

38:40to opening up that conversation with you yes sir as well all right

38:51you

38:52you

38:53you

38:54you

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