- 22 hours ago
On this episode of Power House, Zeb Lowe sits down with longtime mortgage executive, consultant and podcast host Coby Hakalir for a candid conversation about one of the housing industry’s most contentious topics: credit reporting, FICO scoring and the future of mortgage regulation.
The discussion centers around his viral op-ed challenging the current mortgage credit ecosystem and questioning whether the industry has become too defensive of legacy systems at the expense of competition and innovation.
Zeb and Coby unpack rising credit report costs, the role of the FHFA, unintended consequences of regulation and why loan officers need a deeper understanding of the systems shaping borrower outcomes. The conversation also explores misinformation in today’s market, the importance of industry engagement and why difficult cycles often reveal which professionals are truly committed to evolving with the business.
At its core, this episode is about challenging assumptions, questioning entrenched systems and asking what a smarter, more competitive mortgage industry could actually look like.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Coby Hakalir's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cobyhakalir/
Opinion: FICO, the 3Bs: Fruit from a rotten tree. Here’s how we fix It.
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/fico-the-3bs-fruit-from-a-rotten-tree-heres-how-we-fix-it/
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
The discussion centers around his viral op-ed challenging the current mortgage credit ecosystem and questioning whether the industry has become too defensive of legacy systems at the expense of competition and innovation.
Zeb and Coby unpack rising credit report costs, the role of the FHFA, unintended consequences of regulation and why loan officers need a deeper understanding of the systems shaping borrower outcomes. The conversation also explores misinformation in today’s market, the importance of industry engagement and why difficult cycles often reveal which professionals are truly committed to evolving with the business.
At its core, this episode is about challenging assumptions, questioning entrenched systems and asking what a smarter, more competitive mortgage industry could actually look like.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Coby Hakalir's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cobyhakalir/
Opinion: FICO, the 3Bs: Fruit from a rotten tree. Here’s how we fix It.
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/fico-the-3bs-fruit-from-a-rotten-tree-heres-how-we-fix-it/
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:00If you spend any time in the mortgage world, you've probably seen today's guest in your feed.
00:05Kobe Hackleer is the SVP and Managing Director of Mortgage and Core Services at T360,
00:11and he's become a go-to voice in the industry, part strategist, part content creator, and part industry evangelist.
00:19People look to him not just for his takes on the market, but for how to actually navigate change,
00:25rethink old assumptions, and build something better for borrowers and lenders.
00:30Kobe sat down with me at the gathering for one of what I hope to be many conversations to come.
00:45Kobe, thank you for joining me.
00:46Thanks for having me, Seth.
00:47Yes, sir.
00:47So cool.
00:48Yes, yes.
00:49I've been looking forward to this conversation.
00:50I have some things I wanted to pick your brain about, but before we dive into that,
00:54can you give us a background on yourself and talk about your path into the industry and ultimately what are
01:00you doing now?
01:01Yeah, so my path started, and I'm not going to do a four-hour story here,
01:06but it started when I was like 12 years old and my mom was a mortgage broker in Brooklyn, New
01:11York.
01:11And I used to take the bus home, and sometimes I would stop off and go to her office,
01:15and I would help her package up FHA loans and send them to the regional underwriting center in Atlanta.
01:21So I was-
01:22Paper files.
01:23Paper files.
01:23Yeah, it was like thank you in 87.
01:25Yeah.
01:25So paper files.
01:28And flash forward to college, I needed a job, and I started working as a mortgage broker in Brooklyn.
01:34Then I went on to my first bank job, and since then, large banks.
01:39Most recently, before T360, was a U.S. bank for a number of years, leading markets, leading loan officers, teams,
01:46divisions,
01:48and working at IMBs.
01:49At one point, I led a JV as well, between a large real estate brokerage local in Chicago and a
01:55bank that we kind of invented.
01:59And, you know, had a great time doing all of those things, and I got to see just about every
02:03part of the industry through that.
02:06And at a certain point, U.S. bank, COVID, all of that happened around the same time,
02:10and I started to think about what I wanted the next phase of my career to look like,
02:14and how I wanted to make an impact on the industry.
02:16And being in corporate America, there's only so much you can do on an individualistic level.
02:23You have to kind of talk the corporate talking points and toe the line,
02:26and I had a lot that I felt I needed to say and a lot that I thought I could
02:29contribute.
02:31And I started to try to figure out what that was going to look like, what that next iteration was
02:35going to be.
02:37And it just kind of evolved into, you know, me essentially just being a loudmouth.
02:42You know, I'm working for a consulting agency and then talking to people in all walks of mortgage and real
02:48estate,
02:49writing articles, publishing content or creating content for LinkedIn.
02:54I'm hosting two national podcasts a week, an announcement about one of them coming soon,
03:00which, you know, big shakeup, big thing coming that I'll tease.
03:05And just attending conferences and getting to meet people and connect with people that are thought leaders and industry leaders
03:10and the people that are really moving the industry from where it's been to where it's now and to where
03:16it's going.
03:16So it's been really an amazing ride the last, you know, two years or so.
03:19I wanted to piggyback off of that because you've become a really recognizable figure in the industry
03:25because of everything that you do, you know, the podcasting, writing, consulting, the networking of the events.
03:34So what experiences along your, you know, along your path has helped shape your, you have a unique voice, right?
03:42Like you said, you wanted to share your opinions.
03:44You want to speak your mind.
03:46What experiences shaped that voice and shaped your perspective, do you think, the most?
03:52Yeah, it's a great question.
03:53And, you know, it's really been humbling to kind of be at conferences.
03:58And every conference I go to, more and more people know who I am and approach me and the more
04:03connections that I'm able to build.
04:04And it's been this really cool flywheel of just, you know, having more of an impact.
04:09And the more impact I have, the more impact I'm able to have.
04:11And it's just, it's been super cool and very humbling.
04:13And, you know, I didn't know when I said I wanted to have a bigger voice that I had anything
04:18unique to contribute.
04:19I just thought I had ideas about things.
04:21And I've always had opinions.
04:23I've always had, you know, conversations with people about bigger things in the industry.
04:27My first week at Fleet Mortgage, which was in 1998, I was 20 or 21 years old.
04:33And I was reviewing the comp plan.
04:36It was my first bank job after working at the brokerage.
04:38I was reviewing the comp plan.
04:39I saw a flaw in the comp plan.
04:41And I, you know, being 20 years old, I emailed the CEO of Fleet Bank because they gave me a
04:48laptop and it had email and his address was there.
04:50And I thought, okay, well, he should know about this.
04:52He's going to be so happy.
04:53How was that received?
04:54Not well.
04:55You know, the message I got back was pretty scathing and pretty humbling.
05:00And, but it made me determined to prove him wrong.
05:03And so I guess I've always just had, you know, this, this sense of fairness about me and the sense
05:09of wanting to set things right and wanting to opine about things and not holding back.
05:14And, and I think that's why being in corporate America was so difficult for me in terms of, you know,
05:19wanting to speak and wanting to say things and not being allowed to.
05:22Okay, so this, this dovetails perfectly into the next thing that I wanted to talk to you about.
05:27I had to write it down because I could not remember the entire word for word title.
05:32But you recently, you published an op-ed that's picked up quite a bit of steam.
05:36The title for anyone that hasn't read it, and by the way, we'll link it in the, in the show
05:40notes as well.
05:41But the title is FICO, the three Bs, Fruit from a Rotten Tree.
05:45Here's how we fix it.
05:48So, well, before we get into it, can you give, because it's, and I'm going to talk to you a
05:52little bit about this as well.
05:53Like in our world, it's very easy to get hyper-focused on an issue, take a deep dive and, and
05:59not know or realize how much outside our sphere really is into it.
06:04So can you give us an overview or give the audience an overview of the Bureau drama high level first,
06:11and then we'll get into the article.
06:12Yes. As it relates to the FHFA?
06:14Yes.
06:14Yeah. You know, so what, what, you know, we have, we have such, such a broad industry that affects so
06:20many people.
06:21And I happen to think it's a really cool thing that we're able to like deal with some of these
06:25nuanced policies and nuanced issues that affect affordability and affect cost.
06:29And, you know, one of the biggest things that sits on top of the mortgage industry as a whole is
06:34the bureaucracy and the, and the regulatory agencies that, that govern us.
06:39There's, there's FHA on one side, there's HUD on one side and there's, there's FHFA on the other side, governing
06:43Fannie and Freddie and a lot of the decisions and the policies that they've made, which were either meant to
06:48protect the consumer or to protect the integrity of the industry.
06:51They have unintended consequences, the unintended consequences around credit specifically, and what you're asking about, we'll, we'll get into in
07:01a second.
07:01But, you know, all of the, the, the FHFA was set to govern Fannie and Freddie to make sure that
07:07housing stays stable in America.
07:08The same thing for HUD, Fannie and Freddie have an implicit guarantee on all loans.
07:13HUD has an explicit guarantee.
07:16Um, and they both make decisions that are meant to keep the integrity of the housing market intact from a
07:22financed mortgage perspective.
07:24Um, as it relates to credit, the, uh, policies that were put in place, for example, you know, the, the
07:31FICO score and the way that the credit reports are generated, that was put into place because we needed a
07:35way to figure out who was a viable borrower.
07:37That wasn't always in place, you know, prior to like, you know, the mid nineties, like we didn't run credit
07:42reports in the sixties and seventies.
07:44Um, and then when we started to figure out, you know, how to run a credit report and how to
07:48keep the integrity of that report, because we were worried that borrowers may produce their own fraudulent reports.
07:53FICO was established as the, the score of fair Isaac score was required by the FHFA by, by Fannie and
07:59Freddie.
07:59I'm sorry, the FHFA didn't exist quite yet.
08:01Um, and, uh, data from the three bureaus was procured to create that score and that's how it's been.
08:09And so that's created an oligopoly on the credit bureau side, and it's created a monopoly on the scoring side.
08:15Now we did get some news.
08:16I think it was either the day before or the day after that op-ed appeared that, uh, we now
08:20have a second entrant into the scoring model.
08:23Um, the only problem with that being is that it happens to be owned by the three bureaus, um, who
08:28are really good at, at, uh, I'm not going to use the word collusion, but I just did.
08:32Um, and so, you know, we've, we now have a little bit more competition remains to be seen exactly what
08:38that's going to look like.
08:39We're going to probably wind up with two different LLPA grids, uh, which, you know, they're, that's just going to
08:44mean that the GSEs make even more money than they do now.
08:47They're going to figure out how to balance that out so they don't lose any.
08:50Um, and so my, my, uh, the point of my op-ed and the point of, you know, a lot
08:56of the opinions around it is that we spent a tremendous amount of time in this industry arguing about how
09:02the credit bureaus price, how FICO prices, the increases, you know, we've had a 1500% increase in pricing with
09:08FICO over the last five years.
09:10Um, the, uh, number that the CHLA recently put out as far as what a credit report costs.
09:15And there's some factors in there that I won't get into, but they came up with a number of $540,
09:20uh, which if nothing is done about the issue is going to seem like a baseline number in just a
09:26few years from now, based on where it's been the last few years.
09:29So the, the whole argument we've had about, you know, how do we disrupt the FICO monopoly?
09:34How do we disrupt the oligopoly?
09:35Should we pull one, uh, credit report from one bureau instead of three?
09:40And will that start to create some competition amongst the other bureaus?
09:44Um, or do we stick with the system we have because we're afraid of what might happen on the other
09:48end with aggregators and bond and the bond market and all of that.
09:51Um, and so my idea around that, because there's been a lot of pushback on the single pull, which is
09:59primarily being pushed by Bob Rokesmith and the NBA was all right.
10:03If the NBA wants to have one bureau that creates competition amongst three, but that doesn't work on the servicing
10:09side, why not create a panel just like we have on the appraisers, which we did, you know, post a
10:14great recession where we created this appraisal panel appraisal management company that have the panels and, uh, or that have
10:21the list of appraisers and the company select a panel, uh, where we invite other credit bureaus from other industries.
10:28And there are lots of them to compete inside mortgage.
10:31And instead of having just three credit bureaus, we have eight, we have 10, we have 12 and lenders get
10:37to pick whatever three they want.
10:39They, that creates the competition that drives the pricing down or at least keeps it stable as we continue to
10:43fix other issues.
10:45Um, and it keeps everybody on the other side, the servicers and the secondary market.
10:50It keeps them happy because they're used to scoring portfolios of loans with three scores.
10:55Uh, so that was my idea.
10:56It's gotten, you know, some support, it's gotten a little pushback, but it's a new idea.
11:00It's going to take some time, but the whole point was really to try to refocus the argument to say,
11:05Hey, let's, let's, let's try to come up with creative solutions to innovate and move the ball forward.
11:09Because the one thing that we can't afford to do is keep the status quo and we can't allow fear
11:15of the unknown and what's on the other side to prevent us from thinking about solutions.
11:19Even if they're a little out of the box, maybe my idea isn't the best one, but let's talk about
11:24ideas.
11:24Let's give me a better idea than that.
11:26And let's talk about that.
11:27But if we're just going to get entrenched in single pull versus buy merge versus try merge, we're never going
11:33to get anywhere.
11:34And that was kind of the point.
11:35Let's, let's think about the problem from the roots and then let's think about solutions.
11:38And all the conversations that you're, you're having with other people, have you heard much
11:42about, you have, have you heard much talk about how to interface with the borrower at the credit
11:48pull point when you're explaining, you know, especially like credit thin borrowers, like
11:51is there, is there a necessary alternate conversation to be had with them explaining their, explaining
11:58their credit now?
11:59Like what have you, have you seen any movement on, on that side of the issue?
12:02You know, not really.
12:03I think, I think the biggest issue that we had around credit over the last, you know, four or
12:07five years or so was around trigger leads.
12:09And I think lenders spent a lot of time trying to figure out how do we tell customers that,
12:14Hey, it's not us that is selling your data.
12:16When we pull a credit report, obviously we don't want other competitors calling you and
12:20we pull your credit.
12:21It's the bureaus and trying to explain to them how all of that works.
12:24I think that there's been a lot of fatigue from having those conversations to now saying,
12:28Oh, by the way, here's the breakdown of what your credit score costs.
12:31Because I think a lot of people within the industry don't really understand it.
12:34If you pulled, you know, 800 people out there as to the exact breakdown of FICO's pricing
12:39and the bureau's pricing, I think you'd get about 800 answers.
12:42Maybe not that many, but close.
12:44And I, so I think there's a lot of confusion.
12:46I think communicating that down to the borrower level is a challenge.
12:49I think what the borrower really wants to understand is very simply, what's my cost?
12:53What's the expectation here?
12:54Why don't I own my credit report?
12:56Right.
12:57You know, I mean, I understand why they didn't own the credit report in the early nineties
13:00when they could have, you know, put a typewriter and some paper and said, here's my credit report.
13:04Right.
13:05But, you know, we're past that.
13:06You know, we should, that's another solution that I know the Broker Action Coalition is fully
13:10in support of the portable credit report.
13:11I'm fully in support of that.
13:13So I think we need to be thinking much more out of the box about these things.
13:16What new questions do you think risk managers, secondary teams should be asking right now
13:21about model performance, comparability, and like unintended consequences?
13:26You know, look, I think we're in an age right now, post great recession, where we simply don't
13:31make loans to people that don't deserve them.
13:33The ability to repay rules, the qualified mortgage rules, the average score of a closed loan, I think
13:38is something like 757.
13:39You'll correct me if I'm wrong.
13:41So, you know, what really drives now at this point, whether somebody pays back their loan
13:46or not, is really not the work we've done prior to.
13:49It's whether or not they keep their job after the fact and whether or not they can keep making
13:52that mortgage payment.
13:54And I think that's a reasonable cost of doing business for those that do lose their jobs
13:58and have trouble because we've really tightened the credit box up front.
14:02You know, and even when it comes to the tick up in delinquencies on the FHA side, and I know
14:07that's the big argument that everyone makes as to why they can't lower the MIP.
14:10And sorry, I know I'm jumping topics.
14:12But, you know, in this country right now, the paradigm has shifted probably permanently to
14:18the point where we only make good loans to really qualified borrowers.
14:23I think there's some confusion about, you know, what the down payment should be.
14:25Most of America thinks it should be that you need 20% down to buy a home.
14:29We know that's not true.
14:31But we do know that you need good credit and you need good credit data from the past.
14:36And now we're going to have trended credit data, which is going to be even more powerful,
14:40I think.
14:41But all it's going to do is just ensure that we continue to make loans to people who
14:45deserve to buy homes.
14:46And I think that puts us in a good spot as an industry.
14:48Yeah, you know, I mentioned this earlier in our conversation.
14:51It is so, this topic is, it really is deep.
14:54And it's very, very complicated.
14:56A lot of intersecting narratives and storylines and just history.
15:02It all ties together.
15:03And it's, like I said, it's easy to fall down this rabbit hole of information and get lost.
15:12It's such a great rabbit hole, though.
15:14Yeah, it can be.
15:16But like for, you know, for the average, you know, practitioner or just housing professionals
15:20in general, what, to pay attention to this issue and know what they need to know, but
15:28let's say not fall down the rabbit hole.
15:30What would you, what leverage do you think that they should be paying attention to in
15:34regards to this issue at large?
15:38What should borrowers be paying attention to?
15:40No, and housing professionals, originators.
15:41What should they really be looking at in the news and regulatory reform?
15:48What should they be paying attention to the most?
15:50Yeah, you know, it's hard for me to say what they should be paying attention to the most.
15:55I can tell you that one of the mistakes I made early on in my career for the first, you
16:0010 years, and I was, I was very young when I started.
16:02I was 18, 19 years old.
16:03So youth was definitely a factor there.
16:05But the mistake that I made in the first 10 years, and I wish I hadn't made it, was I
16:09really didn't pay attention to industry news at all.
16:12I was very focused on where interest rates were, what the rate sheets that came through
16:16the fax machine looked like, what kind of new programs were available.
16:20I was a big fan of the option arm when it first came out, you know, much to my regret
16:23as well.
16:25And I think that, you know, I, I, I wished I would have just kind of paid more attention
16:30to what was going on around me because, you know, I don't think there's any one specific
16:33issue.
16:34I think it's more an awareness and just understanding, you know, what's going on, what are, you
16:39know, how does the FHFA play into the decisions that are made?
16:42What is the, you know, what is the spread between the 10-year treasure and interest rates?
16:46How does that, how is that calculated?
16:47And what does that look like?
16:48How does labor influence, you know, the, the housing market?
16:53I just had a conversation with Logan yesterday in the hall where, you know, he brought up
16:56things that I had never paid attention to.
16:58And one of them was something that took place in 2005 when I was eight years into the mortgage
17:02business and I had completely forgotten about it or maybe he wasn't even aware of it.
17:05And so my, my advice to originators, whether they're young or been in the business forever
17:09is to just, you know, read, read housing wire, read, read a trade publication that has
17:14information about what's going on.
17:16And there's a lot of, there's so much great journalism in our industry today covering
17:19these topics, not only covering the topics, but making them accessible and making them
17:23understandable.
17:24And, and the same way that the younger people, you know, go to, you know, YouTube and, and,
17:29and TikTok and what am I forgetting?
17:32Twitter?
17:32I don't even have a Facebook.
17:34So yeah.
17:34Okay.
17:35Sorry.
17:35This is a bad conversation for us.
17:37You know, the same way that they're going and getting information and they're, and they're
17:41making it their business to understand things.
17:42They're getting a lot of bad information.
17:43There are sources of good information now in mortgage that did not exist when I was
17:47younger and in my career.
17:49So I would say, you know, pay attention to what's going on around you in general, and
17:53just be better informed and try to communicate as much of that to the, to our borrowers and
17:57to our customers.
17:58The biggest mistake that we can make is thinking that, you know, our borrowers are going to get
18:03good information from the research in the, on the internet.
18:06And once they do that, you know, all we've seen since they've been doing that is trust
18:10eroding in the loan officer, we're losing control of the narrative.
18:13We need to take that back if we're to have a future as an industry.
18:16So pay attention to what's going on in your industry and make sure you're communicating
18:19that to your referral partners and to your customers.
18:21I've got, I've got one last question for you.
18:24I want to switch it up just a little bit because you've been, you've been in the industry
18:26for a long, long time.
18:29Almost 30 years.
18:30Yeah.
18:31Wasn't going to make an old joke.
18:32It's okay.
18:33I'm suppressing it.
18:33So, so obviously 30 years, you've seen market cycles, boom, bust.
18:39You've seen a lot.
18:40Where do you, where does this market cycle fit into the patterns that you've seen in
18:45the past?
18:46How does it, how does it compare?
18:47Cause this, I've been in the industry 15 years, but I was talking to someone about this
18:52the other day where there's a ton of noise on the regulatory side and the news, but the,
18:57the, the market itself talking to originators and agents, it's like an eerie calm is the
19:04only way that I know how to describe the vibe that I'm getting from people that are
19:07out interfacing with, um, with buyers.
19:10What is your take on the current market as it relates to the previous ones that you've
19:14seen?
19:14You know, I was at dinner last night in downtown Austin, um, wonderful dinner, great people
19:19in the industry.
19:20And I put a question out, uh, and the question I put out to the table was what's the biggest
19:25thing you think we're going to see in mortgage in the next 12 months?
19:28Like when we're here at housing wire next year, what are we going to be talking about?
19:32Um, people gave some good answers.
19:33There were some answers about AI.
19:34There were some answers about regulatory issues.
19:35And one person said, well, I, you know, I kind of see rates going up, you know, for
19:39this period and then coming down.
19:40I said, well, those are the only two options.
19:42But the point is, is that, you know, I, I see this cycle the same as I see many other
19:47cycles in that, you know, it's, it's part of the, the natural evolution.
19:51Look, we had, we had a very big swing during COVID.
19:54Something that was unprecedented.
19:56Um, but then 10 years before that, we had the great recession, something that was unprecedented
20:01in the nineties.
20:02We had another recession that was pretty bad.
20:04Um, I, I think that's just kind of the way it goes.
20:06And I think that's the sign of a healthy economy is that, you know, you have your, your, your
20:10ebbs and your flows and in your periods of ebbs, that's the time to innovate and dig
20:14in and try to come up with solutions when rates drop, if rates drop, when rates drop,
20:18and we all of a sudden all get busy with refinances.
20:21I promise you, there's not going to be as much talk about credit report fees because
20:24no one's going to care.
20:25They're going to be too busy doing volume and you know, everybody's going to be fat
20:27and happy again.
20:28Yeah.
20:28That and a two, I mean, you have to, there's always a time to separate the wheat from the
20:32chaff because before, I mean, before COVID we, it was like, I don't know, eight, 10 years
20:37of three to five rates and you know, and I've not, no shade on, on, on anyone in the industry.
20:43I was, I was an originator in that time, but if you can't make a living selling mortgages
20:50when it's three and a half, four, four and a half percent interest rates, like you, you're
20:54doing something wrong.
20:55It's not rocket science.
20:56I mean, I don't see why you can't sell mortgages at 6%.
20:58That's still a good rate.
20:59I agree.
21:00But what I'm talking about is before the, before the rate hike, I mean, what we've seen
21:03now over the last two or three years, I can't, I, I wish I could remember it off, but I
21:07can't
21:08off the top of my head, the number of LOs that have cycled out of the industry and you look
21:12at their production, they're, they're part-time LOs or they're super low producers.
21:16I mean, the people that are actually industry professionals and they're, you know, the cream
21:19of the crop, they're taking, they're, they're humming along.
21:22Yeah.
21:23They are.
21:24And, and, and we're seeing a lot of activity from them.
21:26They're, they're joining causes like first home IQ.
21:29They're showing up at the broker advocacy event where I spoke last week.
21:32They're showing up at the MBA advocacy event where I was two weeks ago and participated.
21:36Uh, and, and we're seeing a lot of them digging in and caring about the industry.
21:40I hope that that continues once we get super busy again.
21:43Um, but you know, the LOs that are still around today that are, that are hustling, they're
21:48going to continue to do well.
21:49Um, just because like their mentality is, it doesn't matter if rates are 6% or 4%.
21:53My job is to show value to my customers.
21:55And if I show enough value to my customers, I'll win the business.
21:57And it still makes sense to buy a house at six versus four, assuming you can get a good
22:01enough deal for the house.
22:02I know that housing prices are, you know, runaway train some places, but there's still, there's
22:06still good deals to be had out there.
22:07All right.
22:07Cubby, thank you so much for joining me.
22:08I really appreciate it.
22:09Absolutely.
22:10All right.
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