- 1 day ago
What if solving America’s housing shortage means moving beyond the way homes have traditionally been built?
In Part 2 of their conversation, Zeb Lowe and Brian Hurd explore the housing models, construction methods and financing approaches that could reshape the next generation of homeownership.
Brian explains why manufactured and modular housing deserve a more serious look, how factory-built homes have changed far beyond their outdated reputation, and why better financing options could bring attainable homeownership within reach for millions more Americans.
The discussion covers land-lease communities, modular construction, off-site manufacturing and the role technology can play in reducing construction timelines and expanding housing supply. Brian also shares practical guidance for loan officers who want to earn lasting builder relationships, making the case that curiosity, consistency and partnership matter more than any sales pitch.
The episode closes with Brian’s view of what the next decade could hold for American housing — and why meaningful progress will depend on builders, lenders, Realtors, local governments and communities working toward the same goal.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Brian Hurd’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-hurd-a0892a83/
Cardinal Financial Company, Limited Partnership
https://www.cardinalfinancial.com/
Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
In Part 2 of their conversation, Zeb Lowe and Brian Hurd explore the housing models, construction methods and financing approaches that could reshape the next generation of homeownership.
Brian explains why manufactured and modular housing deserve a more serious look, how factory-built homes have changed far beyond their outdated reputation, and why better financing options could bring attainable homeownership within reach for millions more Americans.
The discussion covers land-lease communities, modular construction, off-site manufacturing and the role technology can play in reducing construction timelines and expanding housing supply. Brian also shares practical guidance for loan officers who want to earn lasting builder relationships, making the case that curiosity, consistency and partnership matter more than any sales pitch.
The episode closes with Brian’s view of what the next decade could hold for American housing — and why meaningful progress will depend on builders, lenders, Realtors, local governments and communities working toward the same goal.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Brian Hurd’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-hurd-a0892a83/
Cardinal Financial Company, Limited Partnership
https://www.cardinalfinancial.com/
Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Homeownership is slipping out of reach for millions of Americans, and the solutions aren't
00:04going to come from the same playbook.
00:05My guest today has spent nearly two decades at the intersection of lending and home construction.
00:11Brian Hurd is the Senior Vice President National Builder at Carter Financial, where he is leading
00:15the charge on attainable housing, from lender-builder collaboration to addressing financing for
00:20manufactured and modular homes.
00:33Well, so one of the things I really appreciate about your content and some of your messaging
00:40in regards to attainable housing is your advocacy around manufactured and modular housing as
00:49a path to bringing attainable housing to the marketplace.
00:54Can you speak to that a little bit?
00:57I mean, I grew up in a trailer.
01:01My dad was a refinery worker.
01:03I lived in a trailer, and every day, but I was pretty old.
01:08He was pretty cool.
01:08He cleared the land that we lived on with an axe after he came home with the refinery every
01:12day, and then we lived in a trailer for years.
01:16That's a man's man right there, is that?
01:17Oh, yeah, and he built our house.
01:20Him and my grandpa built the house that we moved into, and I was like 9, 10 years old.
01:25I can't remember, but we moved into that house.
01:27It was still concrete floors, and my mom and my dad and I, we all slept in my mom's little
01:33office that she had on a pallet until they could afford to put in tile, and until they
01:38could afford.
01:38I didn't have doors in the house that we lived in until I was, I don't know, like 11, 12
01:43years old, because they could have saved up, and they bought doors.
01:46But they lived in a trailer, and it was like this, it was a transitory place, right?
01:51Where it's like this, but I spent the first 9, 10 years of my life in a trailer, and as
01:56my dad built out our house.
01:58That's a great story.
02:00I'm a trailer.
02:00I love it.
02:03I know that there's been such improvements on the quality of these homes, and they don't
02:10have, if you know anything about them, it's not the stigma that is often associated with
02:16them.
02:17So tell me what you see in the marketplace, whether on the consumer side and on the financing
02:22side, the market's appetite for believing that these manufactured modular homes are a
02:28viable alternative.
02:30Yeah, and I was one of those guys that had the stigma behind it.
02:37I always thought that a manufactured home was a trailer.
02:41It was something that was out in the sticks.
02:43It was something out of the moot to show Breaking Bad or whatever.
02:48And we've had the ability at the last few companies that I've been at to do manufactured
02:54lending, but I didn't put a lot of attention to it until 2020.
02:59It was right when COVID hit, I went to my CFO and I, he goes, hey, I want you to
03:05go to
03:05this manufactured home seminar.
03:08I do a big thing in Louisville every year.
03:11I didn't want to go, but I said, you know what?
03:14I'll go.
03:15Changed everything.
03:16Spent time with Clayton, Cavco champion.
03:19A lot of time with Fannie and Freddie have done great work in that space.
03:23Um, but the most important thing was that walked through the homes, uh, firsthand, touched
03:29them, feel them, all of that kind of stuff blew my mind.
03:33You know, we both kind of look at each other and go, wait a minute, this is a manufactured
03:36home.
03:36No, can't be in mind.
03:38You can still see it on cinder blocks and all that kind of stuff.
03:41But so that really started it.
03:42And then I did a, uh, uh, series with, uh, homemade, uh, you know, the organization that
03:50partners with a lot of home builders nationally, the nonprofit, uh, they asked me to do a podcast
03:57on homelessness.
03:59And I think I, I don't know anything about that.
04:02I'll only, you know, what I see in the side of the road or what I hear, or, you know,
04:06through
04:06church, you know, philanthropy and stuff like that.
04:08I've never been homeless.
04:09I've been blessed.
04:11I said, okay, I'll do it.
04:12Uh, as long as you understand, I don't know anything about it.
04:15And they said, that's great.
04:17That's perfect.
04:18You know, take that standpoint, ask questions.
04:20And, and it was incredibly impactful.
04:21And I promise you, I'm tying this together.
04:24Um, I learned as I'm doing that, the absolute power and impact of, of having a roof over your
04:33head that you can call your own.
04:35There's a ton of different reasons for homelessness.
04:38A substantial portion of them are not what we think.
04:40You know, we think everybody, you know, there's the stigma that people want to be that way.
04:44They're just using money on alcohol, whatever.
04:47Homelessness or being unhoused is a massive issue.
04:50Um, and the power of having a home that really kind of drove it home.
04:57So that's what started my whole crusade kind of working into that attainable housing space.
05:01And I started digging in more, you know, and, and I love that, um, you know, manufactured modular
05:08housing has, has started to increase, but how do we do it at scale?
05:12Um, you know, because right now it's, you typically, most of the industry is still, you go into a
05:17retailer, dealer, you buy a house and you go put it on your piece of land somewhere.
05:22That's great.
05:23I mean, we do probably five, 600, a million a year in, in that space at Cardinal.
05:29Um, however, how do we impact larger amounts of people at a time?
05:35And, you know, what I mean by that is, you know, how do we start building communities that
05:40are utilizing offsite construction?
05:44That's where the last, really, I would say the last couple of years have been really
05:47exciting because, you know, we've got 50 unit projects up to, you know, multi thousand unit
05:52projects, all with housing that was built in a factory.
05:57Um, and if you think about it, it makes sense.
06:00You know, everything we have, our phones, our cars, everything else is built in a factory.
06:05We don't decry that, well, that wasn't done in a old timey workshop.
06:10It was done by a factory.
06:11What's wrong with having your house done the same way?
06:15That's where getting past that whole stigma has been a big hurdle, but we're finally starting
06:21to see municipalities go, wait a minute.
06:24It's not what we thought, you know, you just have to get people to get out there and see
06:29it, you know, and now we're working on projects that have hike and bike trails and amenity
06:33centers and all of these types of things, but the housing itself is in that very attainable
06:40range.
06:41I mean, Zeb, we're seeing home builders that are saying, I'm tired of taking seven, eight,
06:46nine, 10 months to build a house and going, well, rather than building it from the ground
06:51up on site, I'm going to go ahead and have a design worked out with one of the manufacturers.
06:58They're going to deliver it out and then I'll finish the installation and site work myself.
07:04Clayton did a phenomenal, partnered with a phenomenal one outside of Knoxville, a community
07:10called Harvest Meadows.
07:11Uh, you can't tell, can tell they're a manufacturer permanently affixed to a foundation.
07:16They have two by fours, they have drywall, they have granite countertops, hardwood floors,
07:20all that kind of stuff.
07:21So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's getting the stigma, uh, over.
07:26It's still a thing big time.
07:27Uh, there's still NIMBYism, you know, not my backyard, but to see large scale developments
07:34on top of that, what's really, and, and I kind of geek out on this stuff, so you have
07:38to bear with me, but I think a fascinating piece now is, you know, you've got the argument
07:44between BTR and, and build the sale, you know, which one's better, which one's destroying,
07:50whatever.
07:51So now what we're starting to work on is I think is really going to impact actual affordability
07:57is doing land lease communities.
08:00Uh, we've got a developer in Texas that's doing a lot of these.
08:04They purchased the home, but they lease the ground that the home is installed on, but
08:11they can do a 30 year fixed mortgage.
08:14I mean, said we're doing a $130,000 homes outside of Houston, 130.
08:19That's nuts.
08:20Yeah.
08:20You know, but obviously there's a ground lease attached to it, but the builders are willing
08:26to subsidize a lower cost of the home itself, knowing that they're going to make that mailbox
08:32money for the next 10, 20, 30, some odd years.
08:35Um, that is going to be really, really exciting to see because, you know, there's only so much
08:41land to build on.
08:43Why not start building on a community that can bring a developer income over an indefinite
08:49period of time?
08:49Right.
08:51Okay.
08:51So on the, on the financing side, I'm curious what this looks like on, uh, with the, with
08:57the buyer.
08:58So like chattel loans have been generally like the kind of been the default for a manufactured
09:03housing.
09:04And I'm curious to know, you know, these mortgage backed alternatives, why, why does that, does
09:11that distinction seem to matter to the buyer?
09:15Does it seem to alter the buyer?
09:17Does it alter the type of buyer that you're getting?
09:20Um, yeah, and that, that special, it's like a really good question.
09:23So, um, it, it, it should matter.
09:28And I say that because I, I don't feel like there's enough education in this space yet.
09:33So if you look at the hundred and some odd thousand manufactured homes, I think somewhere
09:37around that range, give or take a few thousand that were done in 25, if I'm going to guess
09:43probably 70, close to 80% of all those were done with chattel loans.
09:47Well, chattel loans, chattel has a place, you know, uh, sometimes you, you don't own the
09:51property that you're putting the house on.
09:53I would love to see of that 70, 80% of that 70, 80,000 homes that were done last
09:59year, how
10:01many of them actually needed to go chattel.
10:05They could have gone laying home.
10:06They could have been financed with a Fannie Mae mortgage or a Freddie Mac mortgage or FHA
10:10or VA, but they were prompted push.
10:14And I, I gotta be careful because I think there's so many good people in the manufactured
10:19home industry.
10:19Um, but I do feel like it's been done that way for so long.
10:25Are we really having the conversation and, and, you know, are we in the best fiduciary
10:31interest of our buyer by saying, Hey, yeah, I know I can close a chattel loan in a couple
10:35of weeks.
10:35I know I don't have to order an appraisal, but you're talking about a 30 year fixed mortgage.
10:41It might be five and a half, 6% versus a chattel loan that might be nine, 10, 11, 12%.
10:47So it absolutely should matter.
10:49And, and, and look, I mean, our ability, uh, you know, and I don't want to turn this into
10:54a commercial, but you know, our Cardinals ability to do a very flexible credit box is,
11:00is just as good, if not more flexible than chattel.
11:03It can be done.
11:04You just have to take the time to learn it, understand it, um, and then educate, you know,
11:12Hey, did you know, if you're a veteran, you don't have to have any money to put down.
11:15You don't have to have perfect credit.
11:17You can buy a piece of land, have a manufactured home purchased, delivered, installed, all of
11:21that for no down payment and reasonably imperfect credit, you know?
11:28So I think it's an education thing, it, but long way of saying to the initial question,
11:34should it matter?
11:35Absolutely.
11:36Cause you're talking a home that might be $50,000 more, you know, tons of upgrades is
11:43still going to be substantially cheaper per month with an FHA loan than a chattel loan.
11:47Right.
11:47In most cases.
11:49Yeah.
11:49Uh, you had mentioned this earlier, but you've got a, uh, a, a masterclass that you've got
11:55where you're, you know, help LOs become, you know, referral partners, preferred lenders,
12:01or builders.
12:01What's the biggest mistake?
12:03And you may have, it may be the language thing actually, you might've already touched
12:07on this, but I wanted to get a clear, clear question and clear answer around what's the
12:10biggest mistake that LOs make when they are trying to forge those relationships, establish
12:16those relationships and, and, and nurture those relationships.
12:19Probably the most common one is me walking in and say, Hey, Hey Zab, I'm Brian with Cardinal
12:24Financial.
12:25Um, you know, we've got really great programs.
12:28Just give me a shot at the deals your lender can do.
12:30I mean, it's a, it's a little bit longer than that, but that's just, everybody goes in and
12:35does a couple of things.
12:36They'll go in great rates, great product, close on time.
12:39Like I said earlier, that's, that's your lowest common denominator, but coming in and
12:43say, Hey, just, just give me a shot at the stuff that your lender can't do.
12:48Everybody does that.
12:49Everybody, instead of going in there and what we really preach is the first meeting at that
12:55and then not showing up again.
12:57You know, usually a loan officer will show up once they don't get a deal.
13:01That's not worth my time.
13:02I just spent hour driving there and back and all that kind of stuff.
13:06Um, or they might show up one more time and that's it.
13:10Well, if I'm a sales agent, I already know that.
13:13So I'm going to test them, you know, I'm going to make them come back four or five times
13:16before actually, you know, because if they can't, if they can't show kind of that relentlessness
13:21up front, you know, what are they going to do when honeymoon phase is over and they're
13:26a preferred lender?
13:27Um, so what we, instead, what we try to preach is don't go, don't go sell, don't go feature
13:32dump, just go with an inquisitive nature, have fun with it.
13:37You know, um, and making a mistake when I first started doing that, I was bad at it.
13:42I was feature dumping.
13:44I was, give me a shot, give me a shot, give me a shot.
13:47And fortunately a, uh, uh, a gentleman who's, uh, really now a top guy with, uh, Meritage,
13:53he gave me a shot, you know, back in 2009, but go in with that inquisitive nature.
13:59Hey, take me on a tour of your model home.
14:01How long have you been here?
14:03What is your typical units of traffic look like?
14:05Are you getting a lot of realtors?
14:07Uh, you know, what is your typical buyer profile?
14:10What does your inventory look like?
14:12You know, and, and sometimes they may go, why do you need to know?
14:14Well, if I'm a loan officer, especially now when inventory is still relatively low,
14:19how many pre-approvals do I have?
14:22Pre-qual letters do I have out there that need houses?
14:26My buyers need to know who has inventory.
14:30So things like that, um, just ask questions.
14:34You're almost secret shopping.
14:36Now I don't advocate that my loan officers not say they're a loan officer.
14:39They can do that, but just don't act like one.
14:42Just go act like you're genuinely interested in that particular community.
14:47Make a game of it.
14:48That's one of the things I did is I took my daughter.
14:51I was a single dad and, you know, I didn't have a babysitter and, you know, I had to go
14:55visit.
14:55I had to go do my milk route.
14:57I brought my daughter with me, you know, and, and she, she loved to go run around the houses
15:02and explore while I, I just, you, and, and the other thing is, is consistency.
15:06Uh, before I will get engaged with senior leadership, uh, I require that our loan officer
15:14spend at least 60 days in the field, genuinely visiting these sales agents.
15:20Why that's so impactful though, is number one, if my loan officers are going to a community
15:25every two weeks, not selling, just asking questions, developing that relationship.
15:32Um, they're already doing it.
15:34Most existing preferred lenders aren't doing, they're not getting out there in front of the
15:39sales agents, you know, learning what is actually going on, what their needs are.
15:44Uh, but what they're also doing, when I get to the point where we're meeting with a VP of
15:48sales and marketing division, president, whatever, I don't want my loan officers to be a dead
15:52stick.
15:52I'll lead the conversation, but if I can go, Hey, this is, this is, uh, you know, Katie over
16:00here, she spent the last 60 to 90 days getting to know your communities, getting to know your
16:06salespeople, your process, your competition, uh, what your buyer profile looks like.
16:12Now we want to sit down and talk.
16:14That's really, really powerful as opposed to, Hey, this is, this is Katie.
16:19She's good at what she does.
16:20It's just not compelling.
16:21And during the conversation, they can go, Oh yeah, I went by that model over there.
16:26I love the layout there.
16:27You know, I love the sales agent at this community.
16:30Um, it's not rocket science, Seb.
16:33It's just taking the time to show interest in the builder that you're trying to target
16:40in the first place.
16:41Right.
16:42Well, and you know, communication obviously is key to all of your, uh, your partnerships
16:46as a, as a lender.
16:47What would you say that everybody's, you know, first of all, it's kind of a silly question
16:51because it's more complicated than I'm probably going to, than I'm making it out to be.
16:55But, um, cause everybody's different on how they define or what they expect when it comes
17:00to good communication.
17:01But what would you say is the difference between the way builders expect or the way builders
17:06view good communication, let's say versus realtors?
17:11Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's critical with builders.
17:16Um, I am a big believer in service level agreements, you know, and again, not rocket science doesn't
17:21cost anything, but we're going to outline, Hey, my loan officer is going to call you back
17:24within an hour, prequel within two pre-approval within 24, whatever.
17:28Um, builders want communication in a timely manner.
17:33And everybody's a little bit different.
17:34Some builders want you to be in their office every Tuesday morning.
17:37Um, some just want a spreadsheet every Friday afternoon, whatever the case is.
17:41Let me ask you this.
17:42Is it noticeably different?
17:44Is it noticeably different from a realtor?
17:45I guess it was what I'm trying to.
17:46A hundred percent.
17:47Yeah, absolutely.
17:48Because you got the best realtors that might, you might be able to work on 10, 12 deals.
17:53The, the, on average, I mean, there's some mega realtors out there, but you know, an average
17:56year, you know, I think that we used to call it the rule of 12, but a, uh, uh, uh,
18:01good
18:01realtor can send you 12 deals a year while tracking 12 deals.
18:05Most realtors don't have any communication protocol.
18:08It's just kind of willy nilly.
18:10And, and, you know, they don't, I don't think they demand enough.
18:13I don't think the loan officer community pushes themselves in general.
18:17There's always exceptions to the rule.
18:19Um, a builder, especially your larger ones and especially end of quarter, end of year.
18:26Yeah.
18:26You gotta be, you gotta be right on your game.
18:29You know, they, when I get a lead or one of my loan officers gets a lead, call the sales
18:35agent, let them know you got the lead.
18:37Let them know when you called the client, let them know when you did the pre-approval
18:40letter, let them know when we, we ordered the appraisal, let me know, let them know when
18:43we get a clear to close.
18:44All of those things I think are far more critical or not critical.
18:49I think they're critical for realtors as well.
18:52Um, but I don't think, you know, especially your larger builders doing hundreds of homes
18:57a year.
18:58Yeah, you have to, you know, because that's, it's a lot easier to track 12 than it is a
19:03hundred, 200, 500,000, whatever.
19:05And then most builders that we work with, our profile generally fits best with builders
19:11that have a preferred lender list.
19:12I love competition.
19:14We just have to be a better rate, better service, better attentiveness, better communication.
19:18But if you've got a builder doing thousand homes a year, 200 are going to one lender or
19:24a hundred to go into a different one, you know, they're all spread out.
19:26Yeah.
19:27You have to have that communication protocol on the spot, which is why preferred lenders
19:32as much as they can be maligned is critically important.
19:36If I'm a contract manager or a pipeline manager for a home builder, and I've got 20 OSLs, you
19:42know, outside lenders doing deals with me.
19:44I don't know if they're being taken care of.
19:47I don't know if they're getting good rates.
19:49I don't know if they're, you know, staying on top of that.
19:52I don't know if they're out there buying cars and boats and all that.
19:56So yeah, communication is absolutely critical.
19:59And it's something that every single builder relationship that we start, that's a big part
20:05of what we have to talk about.
20:07How do you want to be communicated with?
20:08How frequently, what are the metrics you want to keep?
20:13I don't know how much of that's being done in the realtor space.
20:17Yeah.
20:18We're running up on our time, but I got one more question.
20:22I got a bunch of questions for you, actually, but like I said, we're running up on time.
20:25The space, this space that you've carved out for yourself and the Cardinals carving out
20:29for themselves in the industry, where do you see it in five or 10 years?
20:34Oh, wow.
20:36I mean, where I hope to see it is dramatically more efficient.
20:41I would love to see us really focus on housing, you know, focus on regulation and regulatory
20:48fees.
20:49I think we're definitely going to continue to see housing get smaller, tighter, but I
20:55hope we continue to get more efficient with it.
20:57I hope we accept off-site construction, not just as a one-off, but as large-scale communities.
21:04You know, and I would love to see a better, you know, partnership between lender, builder,
21:11and realtor.
21:12I mean, we're all part of the same tripod.
21:15The problem is, is builders don't, you know, realtors don't love realtors.
21:21You know, a lot of them just won't work with them.
21:24Realtors don't trust the builder.
21:26Nobody likes the lender.
21:27We're all an integral part of that whole equation.
21:31So, yeah, I'd love to see, you know, cats and dogs get along, so to speak.
21:37Hopefully, less need for massive incentives over the next few years.
21:41You know, I mean, we have got builders that are giving away $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000.
21:46And here's the other thing I really, really hope we see.
21:49And again, that's not really your question.
21:51You know, you asked what I would see versus what I hope.
21:53I hope we continue to have small, local, and regional builders.
21:58I get why there's this big, just like, you know, you see it every day in the mortgage industry.
22:03You know, we're all, you know, there's such a consolidation.
22:06But there's such a value and beauty in a, you know, these regional builders that know their marketplace far better
22:15than somebody across the country.
22:17I hope we don't lose that, you know, because I think that's a really important part of our home building
22:21culture and our housing culture in America.
22:25I fully agree with that.
22:26Not to get too waxed, not to wax too philosophical, but.
22:29No, not at all.
22:30Brian, look, man, thank you so much for your time.
22:31I really enjoyed this conversation.
22:34I'm going to have to get back on again soon because I got, there's a lot more that we should
22:38discuss.
22:39Love to.
22:40Zeb, really appreciate it.
22:41Thanks for having me.
22:42Thanks, man.
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