Brian Hurd: Why the housing crisis is bigger than interest rates

HousingWire

The housing affordability crisis is not just an interest-rate problem. It is the result of decades of choices that have made it harder, slower and more expensive to build the homes America needs.   In Part 1 of this conversation, Zeb Lowe sits down with Brian Hurd, senior vice president of national builder strategy at Cardinal Financial, to examine the forces reshaping American housing.   Brian shares how his path from construction sites to mortgage leadership gave him a ground-level understanding of the builder business — and why that perspective still shapes the way he works with lenders, developers and housing professionals today.   The conversation moves beyond rates and loan products to the structural pressures facing the market: rising material costs, labor shortages, zoning constraints, shrinking affordability and the widening gap between what buyers can afford and what builders can profitably deliver.   Brian also explains the critical distinction between affordable housing and attainable housing. Solving the missing-middle problem, he argues, will require more than new programs or lower rates. It will require builders, lenders and policymakers to reconsider how homes are designed, financed and brought to market.   For anyone in mortgage, real estate, construction or housing policy, this episode offers a clear-eyed look at why homeownership has become harder to reach — and what needs to change.   Related to the episode:   ⁠Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn⁠  https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/  Brian Hurd's LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-hurd-a0892a83/  Cardinal Financial Company, Limited Partnership  https://www.cardinalfinancial.com/   Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.   The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00Homeownership is slipping out of reach for millions of Americans, and the solutions aren't

00:04going to come from the same playbook.

00:05My guest today has spent nearly two decades at the intersection of lending and home construction.

00:11Brian Hurd is the Senior Vice President National Builder at Carter Financial, where he is leading

00:15the charge on attainable housing, from lender-builder collaboration to addressing financing for

00:20manufactured and modular homes.

00:33All right, Brian, thank you for joining me.

00:35Good to be here, Zeb.

00:36Appreciate it.

00:37I'm in rarefied air.

00:38You usually have talking heads, and I'm just a builder guy, so thanks for having me.

00:44No, you're actually just the kind of guy that I look forward to speaking with.

00:48I've got a special place in my heart for builders in the housing industry.

00:54That's how I put myself through school.

00:56I put myself through school remodeling homes.

00:59Really?

01:00Yeah, I worked with a fantastic carpenter who eventually I got to be, you know, I did

01:05finish work, trim work, but started off doing, ripping off.

01:09I live in Southeast Texas, so a lot of hurricane damage, especially in the early 2000s.

01:15And so, yeah, that's what put me through school.

01:19Well, God bless you if you were working on roofs and all that in the state of Texas, especially

01:23in the summer.

01:24It gets hot here.

01:25I mean, I'm not originally from Texas.

01:27I've been here about 25, 30 some odd years, and working outside in Texas, it's no joke.

01:33So, yeah.

01:34Well, even it was one of those things where it did start off pretty brutal, and then you

01:39had to work your way up through, I guess, the trade.

01:42And then you get into, you taught me how to build cabinets.

01:44And then I was installing cabinets, doing trim work, finish work.

01:47And then that's a much lighter load than the roofs.

01:51I spent a lot of time, my dad is a home builder, so worked on a lot of crews and

01:58done everything

01:59from carrying lumber, digging ditches, sweeping out houses, carpentry, all that kind of stuff.

02:05So a lot of my summers growing up were spent doing the same thing.

02:09Yeah.

02:09So, yeah, we come from a very similar background.

02:11Although I saw in a previous interview of yours, I think it came up a couple times, actually,

02:16that you're UT alumni, and I'm an Aggie.

02:21So we got that against us, but.

02:25You just had to bring that up.

02:27And I'm wearing a subtle burnt orange shirt, but I don't know if it comes here on the camera.

02:31In fairness, I'm not a UT alum.

02:34I'm actually a, I paid a lot of tuition to UT, but I have one kid that graduated from Texas

02:42and one that graduated, or it's about to graduate from A&M as a construction science major.

02:48So we are truly one of those house divided.

02:52But I will try not to offend you too much, though.

02:57I did was, I was, I was one, I forget who it was, it was a podcast and you were

03:00talking

03:00to some manufactured home guys and y'all both started off doing like the gig them things.

03:05Like, I'm not going there with that guy.

03:06I'm not doing that one.

03:10I mean, since you said it, I got to do it.

03:12So let's get into it.

03:14So, well, actually, before we dive into the topics, I really want to talk about, I, can

03:17you share a bit, you know, I guess you kind of already did, but can you share a bit of

03:20your backstory?

03:21You know, how did you, how did you get into, uh, into the industry?

03:25Yeah.

03:25So, you know, I started back in 2003, um, really, I, I actually, I used to work at, uh,

03:34for a fortune 100 tech company, you know, so going from that into mortgage was a bit of

03:41a shift.

03:41I actually, in between, I got a license as a realtor over summer, um, going from a very

03:47structured corporate environment to being a realtor was a big culture shock.

03:52So, um, just kind of on a whim, I got a recommendation for a branch manager at a mortgage

04:00company, kind of a startup mortgage company was actually, uh, doing lending tree leads.

04:06And, you know, I think I liked the fast paced environment, but, you know, so I did that and

04:12I did really what everybody did.

04:14I went after realtors and, and, you know, I did the whole drop off breakfast taco thing

04:19and, and, you know, going and soliciting business and all that.

04:23I did it for, for years.

04:25Really, it was probably five or six years.

04:27Um, I guess then it was about, about the time of the crash.

04:32Um, I, you know what, I, I, I have to get back to my roots.

04:37Um, and so why, right after the crash, the lending on construction had almost ceased.

04:43Um, partnered up with a couple of small banks, got into that space, learned everything I could

04:49do.

04:50And Zeb, that's when I really started to flourish.

04:53You know, like I said, I grew up, uh, you know, in a family of home builders, I've spent

04:57a ton of time walking houses, um, working on jive sites, all of that.

05:02It was just a natural progression, you know, without actually having to work with the family

05:07business, love my family.

05:09But the thought of having, uh, you know, two brothers and a father all work together, it

05:14wasn't going to work.

05:16So shifted over to the, uh, home building side and the financial in the mortgage world.

05:23And, you know, I kind of shed the, uh, suit and ties for boots and jeans.

05:27And, and, you know, I think it was the first time I went out to a job site, I got

05:32hazed something

05:33fierce.

05:34You know, I was wearing a coat and tie and all that.

05:37And, uh, they go, gosh, here comes the banker, uh, just like everybody else.

05:42After that day's up, I never wore a suit and tie again.

05:44I mean, you know, except when, when it was necessary, but, um, and I did that as an originator

05:51till about 2014.

05:54But then I realized where my biggest passion was, uh, was really two things, the thrill

06:01of the hunt, you know, going after new strategic partnerships, creating strategic alliances,

06:06but then I also really, really love helping loan officers grow their careers, you know,

06:12and the builder space it's different.

06:14You know, there's maybe 10%, maybe 12% of the LL population that is really willing and

06:22or able to go after that space.

06:24You know, I always tell people it's not low hanging fruit, but it's a heck of a long-term

06:27annuity.

06:29Um, so I figured, you know what, I've moved into the leadership side where I've been since

06:34and really I get to do what I love to do.

06:37I get to travel.

06:39Um, I get to help loan officers, you know, some of the most gratifying things.

06:44You take a $10 million loan officer, turn them into a $60 million loan officer.

06:48Um, that's what I love to do, you know, and, and so I've had the honor and privilege to

06:54do that for a couple really, really good companies.

06:57Um, and I wouldn't change any bit of it.

07:00Let me ask you something.

07:01And, uh, you're just a perfect person to speak to about this.

07:05Cause I, oftentimes I feel a little alone, uh, in, in this and then this kind of perception

07:11that, that I've got, I don't really have anybody to bounce it off of, but do you, I,

07:14I notice, uh, a difference in, uh, having spent a lot of time building homes and then

07:21going, I was, I got into the industry as a loan originator, uh, myself, and I, I see

07:27this kind of up the, throughout the, both in all industries within the housing industry

07:31and up the chain where if you have a, if you have a mortgage company that is, uh, have,

07:38that has, you know, a senior staff of every, that no one has actually originated alone.

07:44They've never sold a home.

07:45They've never, you know, they're, they're, they're like tech pros that came in and they're

07:48going to like simplify the process, make it, they're going to just make it better.

07:50Cause cause the process is so simple.

07:53Right.

07:53Uh, and, uh, there's a, there seems to be, to me, there's this major disconnect between

07:58the way that companies are run and the vision between, you know, people that have done the

08:02job and they're now leading the people and it's, and it, you know, the same thing applies

08:07or it has to at the, at the building level.

08:09So at your level, right, like having, you've done, you've walked a mile in all of these

08:13roles, what, how important is that?

08:16Cause that's like, to me, that's something that permeates through in a way that you may

08:19not be able to tangibly define, but I think it's so important.

08:24I love that question.

08:25And kudos to you.

08:26Cause I, you, you keep your license, correct?

08:28You're, you're still a licensed loan officer.

08:30Um, yeah, I think that's great.

08:34I mean, you're a brave man, but, um, yeah, I think that's a great question.

08:38I think it's critically important.

08:40Not that you can't succeed, not having been in the trenches, so to speak, but look, I was

08:45my first builder calls were terrible.

08:48I mean, I did all the things I teach a masterclass.

08:50Now I do several semesters a year teaching loan officers, how to go after builders.

08:55I was horrible at it, Seb.

08:56I mean, everything I teach now is either the successes I learned or teaching them not to

09:02do all the terrible, I mean, I was, I was just bad at it.

09:05You know, I feature dumped, um, I, I tried to, you know, offer, you know, I bring food

09:12or all that kind of stuff, which I, I, I don't do anymore.

09:15I stopped doing, um, but I learned that all in the trenches.

09:19I mean, I learned, you know, how sales agents respond, how, how to talk to a division president,

09:26how to do all of these things.

09:27And then, and of course, deal craft, um, over that time, you also learn how builders speak,

09:35you know, just like, you know, you as a loan officer, you learn the lingo.

09:39That's really important because if I just blindly went into a home builder and said, Hey, we've

09:44got great parades and products and we close on time.

09:47Well, so what?

09:48I mean, all I'm doing is telling them I do my job.

09:50Whereas if I'm saying, Hey, how many turns a year?

09:53What's your absorption rates?

09:55What's your units of traffic look like?

09:57You know, when you're 75 days from completion, are you hanging cabinets or countertops?

10:02You have to learn that stuff.

10:04And that takes time.

10:05You know, it really does.

10:06So, yeah, I think it's critical.

10:08I wish everybody, you know, to be honest, I think everybody should go back even further

10:12and spend time as a loan processor.

10:15But at the very least, yeah, I think it provides a huge benefit and insights into what the loan

10:24officers that I work with and teach now, what they're going through.

10:28You know, I know what real fear is like when you go into your first blind call, that sort

10:35of thing.

10:35If I didn't understand it, how could I really connect with the people that I'm working with

10:39and for?

10:41And so, and you've been with Cardinal Financial for going on two years, right?

10:45You're the, I think about, it's been, yeah, about a year and a half.

10:52Yeah, I guess it's been a while.

10:54It's weird.

10:54Time flies.

10:55And I don't move often.

10:56You know, I've been, I think, two different companies in the last eight, nine years.

11:01But yeah, now we're just hitting our stride.

11:03So, we've been talking around it, but can you tell our audience exactly, you're SVP National

11:08Builder, exactly what your primary responsibilities and what you're building out there now?

11:13Yeah.

11:13So, you know, the simple answer is my job and responsibility is to grow Cardinal Financial's

11:21penetration into the builder market.

11:23Really what that is, it's a couple of things.

11:27Going after strategic partners, and that could be anything.

11:31It could be pretty broad spectrum.

11:33It could be your builders doing, you know, 15, 20 homes a year to national builders doing

11:38several thousand homes a year.

11:41We do a tremendous amount in the attainable housing space.

11:45I'm a huge advocate for attainable housing, manufactured modular alternative construction

11:51methods, that sort of thing.

11:54But a big part of what I, and again, this kind of goes back to where I said my passion

11:58was.

11:59I work hand in hand with our loan officers, teaching them what to say, what not to say,

12:06what builders to go after.

12:08Because everybody goes, okay, well, I'm going to go after this big, massive public builder

12:11that's in my backyard.

12:12Well, it's not really a good target.

12:14You know, they've got their joint venture, they've got their in-house.

12:17So strategizing on what are the right builders to go after, which ones fit our profile, how

12:24to go through an engagement period.

12:26Then the fun really happens is when, once I, once we get through 60, 90 days of having my

12:32loan officers boots on the ground out in the field, hop on a plane, go out and do joint

12:38calls.

12:38Now, let me ask you, you, that's an interesting phrase that you use, attainable housing, because

12:44most of the time people, I mean, people are well aware of the affordability, affordable

12:48housing phrase.

12:49So is there, is there a distinguishable difference to you or in your mind, why you use attainable

12:54housing versus affordable?

12:55Yeah, good question, Deb.

12:56So I look at affordable housing, and I'm sure you could probably look up the exact definition,

13:01but affordable housing, I view, and I used to call it that too, years ago.

13:04Uh, but affordable housing is really subsidized housing, you know, whether it's government,

13:09state, local, whatever, subsidized housing, housing programs, that sort of thing.

13:14Whereas attainable housing, which is where I think we, as the mortgage industry and the

13:20building industry can make the most impact is building and financing homes that support

13:27that missing middle.

13:29I'm sure, I'm sure you've heard that term, middle in class, middle income class families

13:34that simply cannot afford the typical home that's being built today.

13:39Um, you know, so it's through whatever methods that attainable space, that's where we can,

13:46where we can do the most work.

13:48Let me, okay.

13:48So this, there's a whole, uh, whole another conversation of itself.

13:53We'll only kind of get to talk to you about the, I guess the high notes, but I was just

13:56reading

13:57an article, uh, I think it was, came out in the, I think it was in the journal today.

14:01Uh, and it came from, it was, uh, from the chief economist at, uh, associated builders and

14:06contractors.

14:07I got the quote, he said, input prices have now risen more during the first four months

14:12of 2026 than over the prior three years.

14:15Um, you know, and this is, you know, mainly things like aluminum, it's like 400 pounds of

14:19aluminum, of copper that goes into the average home.

14:22Like aluminum, uh, lumber, obviously for not, you know, more and more sawmills are closing

14:27down and hell concrete's more expensive, you know, so.

14:31Concrete gypsum, all of those things.

14:33Yeah.

14:34Everything across the board.

14:35So how, how do you see that factoring into, or how's that, how's that playing?

14:39I mean, beyond the obvious, like things are, shit's more expensive, right?

14:43Like how do you see that factoring or playing out right now in the attainability conversation

14:48and in the home ownership conversation?

14:52Well, unfortunately it's, it's just the perfect storm for the exact opposite.

14:57You know, we've got high rates, we've got, you know, dramatically increasing, uh, you know,

15:03materials costs and supply costs.

15:05And then on top of that, we have, uh, massive issues with immigration.

15:10And so the workforce is, is incredibly expensive right now.

15:14Um, in a lot of cases, you know, you got crews that don't show up, um, because, you know,

15:18they're afraid of getting deported.

15:19So you've got all of these things hitting the market all at once.

15:24And, you know, I mean, we're not going to just throw up our, our hands and quit.

15:27So what do we do?

15:28And I think what I've seen most builders do, uh, you know, I heard this sentiment over and

15:34over and over again at the international builder show in February.

15:38We're going to, for the most part, stand pat, focus on getting rid of inventory throughout

15:43the rest of this year.

15:45Hopefully rates will come back down.

15:47Hopefully the, uh, uh, award I ran will abate by, you know, hopefully not too long.

15:53Things will start to return to some sense of normalcy, but yeah, it's created a, a quadruple

15:59whammy in a lot of ways.

16:00Um, however, I think what it's also done is it's brought a massive focus on the need for

16:06attainable housing.

16:08You always hear people say, Hey, there's a housing shortage, a housing shortage, a housing

16:12shortage.

16:13Okay.

16:13But where is that?

16:15What, what type of housing are we really short on?

16:18We're not short on 2,500 square foot homes.

16:20We're not short on five, 6,000, a hundred, you know, a hundred thousand dollar homes.

16:24We're short on the types of homes that go back to what that missing middle can afford.

16:30So I think that, you know, we're starting to see legislation and easing of restrictions

16:35and, and more focus.

16:36I think manufactured modular, they're having their heyday.

16:40So the one of the byproducts, not all the byproducts are bad.

16:44I think because it's such a challenging issue right now, it's brought a lot of attention to

16:50it.

16:51So I think in that way, it's a very positive.

16:53What do you think is the most underappreciated or underlooked driver of the attainability

17:01problem right now?

17:02Like I said, high rates, obviously, you know, input costs, obviously, what's something that

17:08you think people is either flying under the radar or people aren't factoring into this

17:12equation that's, that's making this problem worse as factor of us, multiple factors that

17:18have caused us.

17:20Yeah, I mean, I think the media has done a pretty good job of covering most of them.

17:26But yeah, rates are too high.

17:27I think we're, you know, it's hard to say, because I think most of them have been covered.

17:32I would say the size of houses.

17:35I mean, if you look at the average size of a house back after World War Two, when we were

17:39in that massive housing boom, it was like 900,000 square feet.

17:44I think the average price now is probably somewhere around 2,600 square feet.

17:48We have to get back to, yes, we're trying to build smaller and smaller, smaller, smaller

17:54houses.

17:55But I think somehow as a society, we went from 900 to 1,000 square foot starter homes to 2

18:02,500.

18:03I mean, how did that happen?

18:04You know, I think we were trying to get that first time home buyer, you know, to fit into

18:10a house that they don't really need yet.

18:12I mean, you know, back, you know, 20 years ago, that was a progression.

18:17You know, you went from 1,000 to 1,500 to 2,000.

18:20You're finally there when you had your 2,500 or 3,000 square foot house at the big yard.

18:25We don't need to go straight to that right off the bat.

18:29So I don't know if that's under thought of, because I know that that is a, you know, area

18:36that a lot of builders are trying to fix.

18:38But then there's other things, you know, I think labor obviously is one of the biggest

18:44issues in housing.

18:46But the other thing is, is the way we build houses hasn't really changed a lot.

18:51You know, you look at other countries like Europe and whatnot, a ton of what they do is

18:57prefab, offsite construction, that sort of thing.

19:00We're starting to see a shift here in the States over the last couple of years.

19:05Like I said, I think we're seeing a heyday with the manufactured modular, but that's still

19:10less than 10% of the entire marketplace.

19:13We have to look at improving our construction methods.

19:18And it's not just a cost thing, Zeb.

19:20I mean, if you look at, you know, areas like Maui and, you know, California and areas that

19:26are stricken by disaster, it shouldn't take eight months, nine months, 10 months just to

19:32get permits and then another 10 to 12 months to build a house.

19:36That's where things like 3D printing, manufactured modular, all that kind of stuff, I think.

19:42And I'm not saying the industry go that is going to go that route.

19:45Improving construction and modernizing is, is desperately needed.

19:51The byproduct of that, if it takes you six months when it used to take you 12, well, that's

19:56six months of carrying costs.

19:57You don't have to pay anymore.

19:58That will in turn help bring prices down.

20:01Yeah.

20:01All this is, all this is right up my alley.

20:03So I just, I'm, I'm, I'm a second time through author's name is Mike Hathorne.

20:09He has a book called The Great Housing Reversal.

20:11And what he's talking about is this demographic shift in, in the United States, just from a,

20:16from a cultural standpoint.

20:17Immigration has a large point to do with it.

20:19You know, we've been at a sub replacement birth rates for, I don't know, 15, 20 years

20:24or so.

20:25And then, so the, and the type of homes that we have been building in this like kind of

20:33like suburbia sprawl have the suburbs that I grew up in, in the nineties, eighties and

20:39nineties, very different than the suburbs of 2026 to where there's, there are all these

20:43boxes that are right next to one another that, that don't lead to any sorts of community.

20:49And what, uh, and, and the younger generations, younger first time home buyers, they, they

20:54grew up in that, in those spaces and that built environment.

20:58They do not want that.

20:59They actually want these smaller homes that are, that are these, uh, that a lot of this

21:04is like infill opportunities.

21:06These walkable communities are more condo size, uh, homes that have amenities that are, that

21:12are, that are walkable.

21:13They have middles, like the, like the, the, the third place, right.

21:17Uh, that are available much more like you see in, in old world, uh, Europe, which ironically

21:23is also a need that we, for the, uh, the, uh, aging, the senior homeowners that have these

21:29mansions out in the suburbs that are too big for them.

21:33And, uh, kind of the theory for a long time was like the, well, then the younger generation

21:36will fill that up, but we'll assume those homes.

21:40Um, but they said they don't want them because they're not having the kids that they're, that

21:43the boomer generation, or you don't need that much.

21:46Yeah.

21:47They don't need that much house.

21:49And, uh, you did a podcast with Austin.

21:52I don't know.

21:52It was several months ago.

21:53I think that was pretty cool.

21:54I think you had made a statement, um, that, you know, the dis part of the discussion was building

22:01houses, not obviously you have to build them efficiently, but the focus, not just focusing

22:07on the efficiency, but building a house that people actually want, that they can experience

22:12that they like.

22:13And, you know, and, and does it have a sense of community and does it have walkability and

22:18all of these types of things?

22:20And I think that's where we have to find some kind of equilibrium.

22:23How do we build efficient communities, um, you know, that have more of that sense of communal

22:30living and, and, and experiential living, I guess is the best word I can come up for it.

22:34Um, you know, because if you look at most of the houses that were built back in the fifties,

22:40yeah, they were boxes.

22:41They were just straight little thousand square foot boxes.

22:45Um, but, you know, at least there were affordable at the time.

22:50How do we find a way to do all of that together?

22:53And, you know, whether it's meant, you know, still master plan communities with a lot of amenities

22:57in them or infill.

22:59And I love the infill market because there's so much property.

23:02Um, you know, I was talking with a developer yesterday.

23:05He's got 130, 140 lots in, in Detroit.

23:09And I mean, these are just sitting there doing nothing, you know, and, and a lot of times

23:14this, the municipalities are willing to subsidize the lot cost.

23:18We just need developers that want to say, Hey, it may not be 130 homes contiguously, but

23:24it's 130 homes within a same geographic area.

23:27We need to build houses in there.

23:29So I think infill is a huge opportunity.

23:31Yeah.

23:32Well, and, you know, uh, and value is another, uh, is another huge factor in this conversation.

23:37Like, you know, you talk about the homes that were built in the 50, the homes that were built

23:40in the fifties, they're still around, you know, a lot of the homes that you need that

23:43are, that were built in 2015 or 2020, they're not gonna be around 30 years.

23:46Cause they're, they're built like shit.

23:48They got our quality, uh, materials.

23:51There's no, you know, homes from the fifties, 60, 70s, you can say they got good bones, right?

23:55It's a house that got good bones.

23:56You can do something with it.

23:58Uh, you know, there's a, an entire rabbit hole that I've fallen down on, on, uh, on social

24:03media where it's these inspectors that are doing these new home inspections on million

24:08dollar homes.

24:09And they're just, it's just a, it's just a joke, you know?

24:14And so like, is that, it ties into the question of value, what, like, what is going to build

24:18to not only built to last that, that people can inherit, that a community can inherit.

24:23Like that's much of what, you know, what Europe has going forward is they have this cultural

24:27inheritance of, of homes and communities that have lasted for hundreds of years.

24:32And so, you know, newer construction is not as, it's a pressing issue with it because

24:38they have immigration, immigration issues as well, populations, but it is not, they would

24:42be in a much rougher place if they did not have communities and towns that their, that

24:47their descendants, that their descendants, their ancestors hadn't built for them.

24:50They can be passed down and sustain and, and, and work for them.

24:54You know, and we don't have, we don't have that here.

24:57I think that's a really interesting point because I think you're right.

25:00Just thinking about it, you know, we're a pretty transient society, you know, or, or, you

25:05know, that may not be the best word for it, but, you know, we,

25:08like growing up, I lived in the same house for 20 some odd years.

25:14Um, I think I've been in the house that, and this was my first house that I designed

25:19from the ground up and built from the ground up, but I've been here eight years and that's

25:22the longest I've been in a, in a particular home.

25:25I think I, I should have looked it up, but I'm guessing, I know at one point the average

25:29was like six or seven years is, is how long people have been in houses.

25:33And it's probably less than that, but you bring up a really good point.

25:36I mean, we don't build houses for longevity necessarily anymore, um, because people aren't,

25:42but, but the demand for it is kind of not there.

25:45And when, is it a car before the horse, which one caused that, that lack of demand?

25:49I do think that when you go through these massive housing booms, people just wanted something

25:54they could actually pay for.

25:57They didn't care what was behind the walls.

25:59They didn't care what the flooring was made of, you know, if, and, and, you know, like

26:03my kids, I mean, they bought a house that now they're underwater on, um, and it's as basic

26:09as they come.

26:09I won't say who the home builder is, but, um, and now they're, they're four years in or three

26:15years in and they're having to go back and replace everything from siding to flooring

26:20and all that kind of stuff.

26:21Um, but they never assume that they were going to stay there 15, 20 years.

26:26Um, I, that's a really, and I don't know what the answer to that is.

26:31We are seeing a lot more multi-generational housing and, and, and living.

26:36So maybe that changes it.

26:38Um, but that's also scary for the reasons you mentioned.

26:41I mean, you know, we used, I used to tell people when we used to do seminars for custom

26:45home builders, go look at the house before they put the sheet rock up, do the eye test,

26:51you know, bring out a level.

26:53Now, nobody cares what's behind the wall.

26:55They just assume, ah, it's going to be fine.

26:56It's going to be okay.

26:58Right.

27:00Yeah.

27:00I think that we're at this place where I tend to think this with most things, especially when

27:04you look at it at a cultural or societal level where things happen, things happen a little

27:08bit at a time, and then they just happen all at once.

27:11And that's kind of like where I feel people that are thinking about these issues that are

27:15looking, that are kind of, that are looking into the housing industry at large across its

27:19verticals are kind of like, okay, yeah, we're headed towards a cliche, but like we're

27:24at an inflection point or where we're quickly getting there to where we really got to figure

27:28some of these things out.

27:30And it wasn't important and things aren't important until they become important.

27:34And then now, right, exactly.

27:36Thanks for listening to Powerhouse.

27:37If you've enjoyed this episode, good news.

27:39There is another one coming part two with Brian Hurd this Thursday.

27:44Be sure to tune in.

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