What it takes to build a neighborhood that feels like home

HousingWire

A home is more than an asset. It’s the place and community we build our lives around. Zeb Lowe sits down with Matt Dean, founder of Dean&Co., to explore how thoughtful planning and authentic storytelling can turn a collection of neighborhoods and businesses into a real community.  Matt shares what he’s learned working alongside developers, why getting the whole team around the table early matters, and how community-centered master-planned neighborhoods can offer something that conventional suburban development often misses. They also discuss the challenges of bringing these projects to life, including builder hesitation and local opposition, and why patient, well-aligned capital can help a vision survive the development process.  For housing and real estate professionals, Matt’s message is simple: Pay attention to what makes a place feel like home. The payoff isn’t just a successful project. It’s seeing people connect, grow, and make a life there.  elated to the episode:  ⁠Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/  Matt Dean's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-dean-deanco/  Dean&Co. https://www.deancostudio.com/  Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.  The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00Somewhere along the way, a home stopped being a place and became an asset.

00:04Today's guest spends his days with people deciding what gets built and is helping them answer the right questions.

00:10Matt Dean runs Dean & Co., a Denver agency that does branding and marketing for commercial real estate developers across

00:17the country.

00:18Matt has come to the table as an outsider and sees the things people inside the business have historically missed.

00:24We get into what actually builds a community on a site, why density doesn't have to mean towers, and what's

00:30broken about financing these projects that the country needs the most.

00:45All right, Matt, thank you for joining me.

00:47Thanks for having me.

00:48Yes, sir.

00:49Okay, so I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while.

00:52Well, I think it's been in the books, I don't know, for a couple months.

00:56And so you and I were talking a bit about this right before we started rolling.

01:01This topic, what you're doing, is a bit of a passion project for me, not just because I very much

01:07believe in what you and others like you do.

01:11I also think it's a necessary step forward in the evolution of homeownership in our country.

01:18But a lot to talk to you about before we get into all of that.

01:21Can you just kind of start with what you actually do?

01:25I mean, you run a creative agency, but your clients are developers.

01:29And I think our audience would like to know how that works and ultimately how you ended up in the

01:35space that you're at now.

01:37Yeah, absolutely.

01:38So I run Dean & Co., a full-service creative agency specifically focused on commercial real estate and real estate

01:44as a whole built environment.

01:46We do everything from play strategy, branding, all the way through marketing.

01:50So we're really full-service, full lifecycle of a development from pre-development all the way through stabilization and beyond.

01:57For us, you know, it's been really amazing to partner with developers.

02:00I think it's a really interesting niche to be a part of because there's so many nuances that go into

02:06development.

02:07I think a lot of people just go, oh, it's developers.

02:09They just make a bunch of money and just build things and it all happens.

02:13And for us, we're really empathetic to the fact that it's not that easy.

02:17It's extremely difficult and they're up against a variety of challenges.

02:20And so I saw an opportunity many years ago to take what I knew as a creative, come into the

02:26world of commercial real estate, learn everything that I can about the lingo, how development works, how capital stacks work,

02:32etc.

02:33And then take our creative services, creative lens of how we view things and try to help speed up those

02:39processes.

02:39So whether that's getting access to capital faster, getting larger investors that people are interested in, helping to lease commercial

02:47spaces, helping to sell homes, helping to build places that people really want to live in.

02:51And I think through that work, we've been able to create a lot of value, create a lot of time

02:56and efficiency savings as well in the process, which is where a lot of developers continue to partner with us

03:00around the country.

03:02I think that people in your position, where it's kind of, I mean, is it fair to say that you're

03:08kind of like an outsider on the inside type situation?

03:11Is that a fair assessment a little bit?

03:13A hundred percent.

03:13Yeah, I think the vernacular that we've tried to change over the years is essentially not being called a vendor.

03:21I think a lot of times in the world of real estate and commercial real estate, marketing is sort of

03:26just a line item that's in there for a lot of people.

03:28And you get called a vendor and I think vendor and developer, that relationship feels really misaligned because then the

03:35vendor is taking a fee to just deliver you something that you asked for.

03:39That doesn't really move the needle when you're talking about the built environment.

03:42You really need someone to partner with you.

03:44You need someone that understands what you're going through, the nuances of it.

03:47Week to week, things can change.

03:49So for us, we've changed that vernacular from being a vendor to being a development partner.

03:54Even though we don't have equity, we still consider ourselves as partner.

03:57We're partners.

03:58We're in it with you.

03:59We are really trying to understand how we can help anything that you're up against and really make sure that

04:06that partnership is there for the long term and not just being looked at as a vendor.

04:10So outsider, seat at the table.

04:13I vice chair the ULI Small Scale Development Council.

04:16I don't take that lightly.

04:17I certainly understand that I've been given an opportunity and I just love the world of real estate in general.

04:23So I feel kind of honored to have a seat at that table.

04:25I think that's where real innovation happens.

04:29That's where real change, meaningful change can happen at this intersection where, like I said, you have someone that's especially

04:35the creative type coming from the outside and not like superimposing themselves or their vision.

04:42But learning the industry, learning – because, you know, it's like Chesterton's fence, right?

04:48If there's been a fence that's been in a pasture for 500 years, like it's probably there for a reason.

04:56And you know you have to learn the reason in the first place and then before you decide whether you

04:59should tear it down or not.

05:00And so I think that meaningful change and innovation happens when you have this sort of dynamic.

05:07And what I'm curious about is like you're – from this position that you're at now, what do you think

05:13that has allowed you to see that people in the industry, like more insiders perhaps, have not historically seen?

05:21Yeah, I just think that really going to development conferences, being a part of the development world, most of my

05:29friends and people that I talk to every day are developers.

05:32I think that just gives you a different lens into what your clients are doing and what they're up against.

05:38So it allows you to be empathetic to their business dealings that they have going on in the background.

05:44And I think, you know, there's other amazing creative agencies out there.

05:48I'm really happy there are because we always say community over competition.

05:51If you're helping another developer see through the lens of, you know, human-scale development, community-driven development, that's good

05:58for the entire world.

05:59So we're really happy that there's agencies out there like that.

06:02But I think what I've always understood, especially in this world, is if you don't understand the built environment, if

06:08you don't understand commercial real estate, you're not able to have those really deep conversations.

06:13You're not really able to understand what's the business goals, what's the pro forma, who are your capital providers, what

06:19are your needs of hitting those tranches of developments to unlock other phases.

06:23Those are just different conversations that we're able to have with our clients that I think they're really receptive of

06:29because there's no education into what they're doing.

06:32There's no questions about any of the terms that get thrown out.

06:36You know, we're in it from the start.

06:38We understand exactly what they're going up against, and it allows us to have a very different conversation and then

06:43sort of surprise and delight with the creative process on the back end.

06:46This audience in particular is mainly mortgage, housing finance, real estate agents, home builders, but primarily mortgage and housing finance.

07:00And I'm curious to know, obviously most of them are not in the room when a neighborhood is being designed,

07:08obviously.

07:09What happens in these conversations, in these rooms that you're a part of that you think people in the mortgage

07:16industry and even in the real estate industry should know?

07:21I think a lot of the really great – I mean, let's talk about sort of master plan communities as

07:27a whole on that topic.

07:28I mean, the really great ones that we're seeing out there and we continue to see getting developed around the

07:33country always start with a developer who understands bringing everyone to the table in the very beginning creates a better

07:40project in the end.

07:41So anyone that's out there pulling all the teams together, architects, urban planners, landscape architects, a branding agency, the marketing

07:48team, whoever that might be, you know, to a two, three-day long charrette and literally getting in and building

07:54the bones of a development of saying, hey, we have this plot of land.

07:58And what can we possibly do here?

07:59What are the types of homes, the styles of homes?

08:01What's the town center going to look like?

08:03What are we going to have here?

08:04What's the ethos of this going to be?

08:06That work is immensely transformative if done right.

08:11And it really creates a lot of these NPCs that we see around the country that everyone goes, oh, Sarenby

08:16or Wheeler District in Oklahoma City, why are those so successful?

08:20Because they started with so much planning in the beginning and so much thoughtful curation.

08:26And I think those are the ones where if you can, I think you can see it pretty quickly.

08:31You can go to a lot of master plans and go, well, this is, you know, kind of typical down

08:35the road.

08:36And then you go to some and you're just like, there's something happening here that I would move here in

08:39an instant.

08:40So I think a lot of those conversations and having the visibility into finding those and backing them, I think

08:47is really key because I think you can really tell the difference.

08:50And what that does for us is really transform a project to where consumers, I mean, home sales right now,

08:59obviously in the United States are down.

09:00But if you look at some of these NPCs that are highly curated around community, they're crushing it.

09:05And so I think for anybody out there that's kind of listening to that, I think kind of the number

09:10one thing that I would kind of champion is find those community driven developments where they're going to be successful.

09:17Back those and really try to get involved in those because it really is a changing consumer of today where

09:22people are a lot smarter.

09:23People want a sense of community.

09:25People have the ability to move wherever they want right now in the United States, sort of.

09:30So there's a lot more freedom and a lot more access to understanding.

09:34And I think people also really get, you know, this is typical, you know, down the road suburban style living,

09:40or I'm getting this thing over here where I can ride my bike to the, you know, highly curated town

09:46center that's got a brewery and my kids can run around on a playground and things like that.

09:49Yeah, I think that, I mean, this is a, it's not an uncommon talking point in this space, but something

09:57happened with the home over the last 40 years or so, where it stopped becoming a place and turned into

10:07just an asset, right?

10:09And what you're talking about, you know, looking at the different master plan communities where one feel it feels like

10:15a place and then the other just doesn't quite resonate, doesn't quite hit.

10:20That's pure, to me, I would be like, that's just, this is just pure asset versus that extra thing, that

10:27extra specialist that a home, that a place has.

10:29What do you think, what do you think that ultimately, what do you think that has cost us, not just

10:34as a, from an industry perspective, but from a cultural perspective?

10:38I think a lot of what that causes is kind of goes into that loneliness epidemic where you move into

10:43a neighborhood and you just wanted to buy our house or you needed to, or it's the asset, like you

10:48talked about, it was the dream and it kind of fit my parameters.

10:50So I moved there, but I think what a lot of people find quickly, you know, I'm a product of

10:55this.

10:55When we moved out to Denver, we moved into Lakewood and a very traditional 1960s built neighborhood.

11:01Most of my neighbors come home, drive into the garage, go inside.

11:04I don't talk to them and it makes me personally not feel great.

11:08I'm like, I want to talk to my neighbors that are walking down the street.

11:10So I think what we see a lot of the times is people may move into those neighborhoods.

11:16It might fit exactly their parameters, but I think that sense of community and sense of loneliness starts to creep

11:22up pretty quickly, especially when you do get exposure to other types of master plan communities where that's at the

11:29very core.

11:29And I think once people kind of realize what that feeling is, you know, you mentioned it before we jumped

11:35on of some of these sound kind of like a hippie utopian places of like, you're going to find your

11:41people.

11:41But truly, when you go there and you kind of experience it, you understand what people are talking about, where

11:46it's safe.

11:47Everyone kind of knows each other.

11:49You have little small conversations that add delight to your day.

11:52I think those are the ones that we see starting to transform people's lives for the better and start to

12:01really create a sense of community and happiness.

12:04That's what I think is so interesting about this conversation.

12:07Like I said, I was joking about if you don't really understand the importance of what we're talking about and

12:14you're not really bought in, you can easily dismiss it.

12:17I was like this hippie dippy kind of, you know, utopia, but we're tripping, we're tribal creatures where we're, we're,

12:24we're, we're geared to live in, in, in communities.

12:27And what's so interesting about where we're at with, with, with housing, no other, what, what other industry can for

12:39decades continually not deliver what its customer wants and kind of still stay, you know, afloat.

12:49I think you, you, you, you build, you make, you deliver what your, what the consumer wants, right?

12:55And that's what's to me, which is so strange.

12:57There's this major disc, just a wild disconnect between what people so obviously want versus what is available.

13:07And from like a marketing standpoint, I'm curious on your end, how, I think, you know, it was a Tesla

13:15was famous for, for, for a while for that, you know, they didn't, Tesla didn't market their, any of their,

13:21their cars for, I don't know how many years, right?

13:24Just the product itself, the product sold itself, right?

13:27And the reviews and car and driver sold the, the, the car.

13:30So whenever you're going to work with developers on, on, on marketing, these communities that are so obviously delivering what

13:41people want, what consumer wants, what's your, what's your marketing approach to that?

13:45Yeah, I mean, I think the, the marketing approach becomes almost a little bit easier because you have so many

13:52great tools to work with, right?

13:54You're selling something that's actually authentic.

13:55You're not just trying to come up with hook lines or come up with video or visual that, you know,

14:01is a selling tool, but maybe when you get there, it doesn't really get replicated as much.

14:06So when you do have the opportunity to work on any of these really beautiful, really well done communities, I

14:13think the marketing approach becomes a lot easier because you have something really authentic that you can back and showcase.

14:18And you know that we always say from digital to in-person, you have to have a delightful experience from

14:23start to finish.

14:24If you see something online and go there in person, someone's going to go, something's happening here.

14:29That's not the same thing.

14:30This doesn't feel right.

14:31But if you can create an incredible digital experience where maybe you see it on a website or on social

14:36media, and then you actually visit there and it lives up to that expectation.

14:40That's perfect because then you're, you have this amazing through line of authenticity of what that place wants to be.

14:46So I think that you kind of like find yourself having to, to, to trim or cut away more.

14:52Yeah.

14:53I mean, and again, look, we all understand marketing, right?

14:56You're, you're trying to sell somebody something at the end of the day.

14:59And so I think that just becomes a lot easier when you do have one of those places that is

15:05fully authentic, fully thought out.

15:07You have all of these things to discuss with your consumer, you know, not just, Hey, this is a beautiful

15:12home that's designed well in your price point.

15:15That's almost a by-product of all these really beautiful master plan communities.

15:20It's look at the place, look at the sustainability.

15:24You know, we, we've, we've thinned out the streets, so it's not going to be heavy vehicular.

15:28You're going to be able to drive or you're going to be able to like ride a bike or walk

15:32around the community.

15:33All these things that people are kind of looking for, and then you can get into the home product types.

15:38And I think what's really cool about a lot of extremely thoughtful master plan communities is the variety of home

15:44types at the variety of price points that they actually plan out through the entire development.

15:49You're talking about a mix of incomes that now get to live there.

15:52It's not just these homes are 400 to $600,000 and they're all set at that price.

15:57You then can start to speak to different consumers in different ways of saying, you know, you can be in

16:02the million dollar home and still have access to this unique community, or you can be in an entry level

16:07$200,000 home and still have access to this community.

16:10So it creates a really wide range of people that you get to market to and the, what you're from,

16:17what you're seeing right now are involved with, are you more involved with, uh, infill projects and repurposing of, uh,

16:25you know, previous lots, or is this new development outside of cities, one of the suburbs?

16:32Yeah.

16:33So we had one project, uh, earlier this year called Braden, uh, which sits outside of Sacramento, really incredible master

16:39plan community.

16:40We came in and helped to reposition that one.

16:43Um, we, we kind of thought that the messaging and the brand that was there was not really delivering what

16:49they were going to be building in the future.

16:51And so we had a really candid conversation with that development team and said, Hey, I think you can make

16:56this more tangible and more appealing to your consumer from the verbal copywriting, everything that's there to the actual, you

17:03know, visual design of what this is going to be.

17:05So we helped reposition that.

17:07Um, and then most of the other ones that we are currently, uh, getting involved with are brand new communities

17:13that are either in development or already delivering home lots that we're going to be working on.

17:17Okay.

17:18Let me ask you this, where the, the, the, the red tape and the, uh, and the, and the, and

17:24the hurdles that you got to jump to get these things developed and, and, and real.

17:29Um, where, I mean, I, I, I can only imagine the, that the, the, the list is probably, uh, endless,

17:35but what is the number one obstacle that you face or that the developers face?

17:39Yeah. Yeah. The number one that we're seeing right now is, is getting home builders to sign on. I mean,

17:44I think that's a by-product of the economy. Um, I think, you know, people are, are asking a bit

17:50more or, uh, construction costs are up.

17:53So it's not really hitting their, uh, pro forma. And so I think right now, a lot of the conversation

17:58that we're having is how do we get these developers to sign on to develop these product types that we

18:03want?

18:04So that's sort of our first tranche, uh, uh, of, of person that we are sort of selling to in

18:09our marketing is how do we get these builders to sign on to actually build these, these homes?

18:13Do you, is that more so than any other, I mean, are they, are they, are they more cautious in

18:20this sort of development than in standard, I don't know, cul-de-sac, suburbia, hell development? Is the, is the,

18:27is the profit margin that different for them?

18:28I think it's a, it's more of a unique product type when you're, you're talking about certain styles of homes

18:34where you've already set the styles that need to be developed.

18:37And you're basically going out and saying, this is the style that has to be done. This is the lot

18:41sizes. This is how big they're going to be, et cetera.

18:43You're sort of setting that framework and they have to say, yes, that's what I want to go out there

18:47and build.

18:48We have other master plan communities that we've either vetted or we're in talks with that have certain home builders

18:55that.

18:56You know, are building very traditional product type that we've seen all around the U S and they're signing on

19:01the same day that you bring it to them.

19:03So there really is a little bit of a difference in what we're seeing. And it really depends on what

19:08are you trying to build?

19:10Is it a little bit more creative and outside of traditional? I think that's where we're seeing a little bit

19:15more of the hard sell coming in.

19:17And then these other ones that are a bit more of the traditional kind of, you know, stick frame buildings

19:21for homes.

19:23Those are still continuing to move forward pretty quickly.

19:26What about the zoning and regulations at the, at the local level? I mean, how to, how do, you know,

19:35citizens feel about, cause that's, I mean, I've read quite a bit about that, where the, the biggest obstacle to

19:40these things are the very citizens that you're going to be building around.

19:42Yeah, that's a really great question. And I think for us, you know, with our agency, we've always tried to

19:50work geographically where development is viable and where people are moving to.

19:54So a lot of the work that I do is try to look up migration patterns of where people are

19:58moving to, trying to look up zoning laws to see where they're a little bit looser, where developments can actually

20:03happen.

20:03Because you're absolutely correct that people are more vocal now than they've ever been.

20:09I think a lot of the times too, the way that I always say it is people are really afraid

20:14of development until it gets developed.

20:16And then they're your biggest fans. Um, we've seen that time and time again, especially in marketing where, you know,

20:21we'll keep certain Instagram handles of people that are, you know, very vocal negatively.

20:26And then you deliver the project and six months later, you're like, Hey, those same people, uh, they're pretty big

20:31fans of us now. That's pretty interesting.

20:33So, um, yeah, I think that's always a really big hurdle, but again, you know, we're, we're trying to actively

20:39find cities, municipalities, et cetera, where the community knows that sprawl is.

20:46What's going to be happening, but also these developments are kind of giving back to that community.

20:49So maybe they might be building a new school or a couple of new schools or a major sports complex

20:54that is sort of void in the area.

20:57Um, what are those developers out there doing? And I think a lot of that starts with like that, that

21:01town center conversation where we want to work in and work in and with NPCs that have a true town

21:09center where there is commercial.

21:11You have an ability to bring in local tenants, local businesses and actually support them.

21:16And then I think that creates a really good community where people go, okay, this is, this is actually adding

21:21to, it's not retracting from.

21:23What parts of the United States do you see this, uh, being, uh, I don't know, the most desired or

21:29you see an appetite for it?

21:30Yeah. So most of the time I would say in the South is probably, uh, the biggest area of NPCs.

21:37So Texas, Florida, Georgia, we're seeing a lot of them right now. Um, we do have one, uh, that we're

21:44looking at that's actually in the Northeast, uh, in Worchester, which is in mass, which is a lot of fun

21:50because that's, that's sort of new for that type of area.

21:52But again, it's already in an incredible city and programmed the right way. It's going to show them the future

21:59of what can be done with these neighborhoods versus the traditional style.

22:02But I would definitely say more active sort of Texas, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas areas is where we're getting a lot

22:10of activity.

22:11Talk to me about, uh, financing challenges. Uh, I, you had mentioned, uh, uh, mutual friend of ours, Austin Tonell,

22:19and he, he was talking to me about the, I mean, local financing, right?

22:25Finding local, um, uh, local investors and, you know, you know, bypassing traditional institutional investors from your experience.

22:34I mean, is there, what, what obstacles have you faced? What solutions, where, where are you going or where are

22:40these developers going for their money right now?

22:42Yeah, that's a really great question. And I think, you know, uh, my wife and I, we're, we're trying to

22:48be developers as well. And we want to do missing middle housing.

22:50And so I think a lot of what Austin and I probably share in common with that topic is you

22:56have to be really strategic about your capital partners when you're trying to do something extremely meaningful, like what Austin's

23:02doing with Townsend.

23:03Um, you have to be really aligned with your capital partners because those are really difficult types of developments to

23:11go out there. They're not going to sit there and make you millions of dollars right off the bat.

23:15It's somebody that you need to be really strategically aligned with. And so I think it really depends on what

23:20someone is trying to build. I mean, we know some great NPCs that are completely, you know, family office funded

23:26and it's a long-term hold.

23:28So you have the ability to really wait and be patient with your capital. I think those allow you to

23:33be the most creative because you do have a patient capital partner behind you that understands the vision is going

23:39to be there. And those long-term results are going to be there.

23:41And then there's others that we work with that go after, you know, bigger institutional capital. And you sort of

23:49have to hit all of the things that you said you're going to hit in the exact timelines. And there's

23:54not a lot of kind of nuance that you can have in there.

23:56So for me, what we've really seen is it depends on what you're trying to build, how close to your

24:02vision are you really able to stay? And then when you open it up to other capital providers that you

24:08might have to, I don't want to use the word sacrifice, but you might have to be open a little

24:13bit to kind of cutting some things off that are not must-haves that still keep you as close to

24:18your vision as possible.

24:18But you might lose a couple of things along the way because that capital is requiring you to do X,

24:23Y, or Z to hit those results for them.

24:24Right. Well, I got one last question for you because we're coming up on our time. I probably should have

24:32opened with this, actually. But I told you a bit about our audience and I brought you on and more

24:41folks like you just because I want to just expose people to the importance of this and why it matters.

24:48What's your 60-second elevator pitch as to the average housing professional that may not be in this business vertical?

25:00Why should they care? What should they be paying attention to and why should they be paying attention to it

25:07from your stance?

25:08I think the best way that I can answer that is just deep from my own passion and emotion for

25:14the human experience.

25:15I think if you, you know, the reason why you asked how I got into the built environment in this

25:20world is there's no better expression of creativity than the built environment.

25:25And I don't think there's any better sense of gratitude than building something, going back a year later and seeing

25:30it full of people enjoying themselves.

25:32So I think with the idea of building community, creating housing for people that's attainable, being able to give them

25:41something that they never really had in their life, and then going back and watching, you know, people are having

25:46their kids there, their kids are growing up there, and now they've made friends.

25:49And now it's this really thriving place. I think there's no better feeling in the world than seeing that come

25:55to life and having something so tangible be the result of all the hard work that you put in.

26:00And I think, to me, the best thing that I love about any project beyond anything that we do is

26:07going back and seeing it grand open or open and seeing people there and just sitting on a bench and

26:13just watching people enjoying.

26:15That is the most fulfilling thing I've ever had in my life and something that I still hold really near

26:19and dear to my heart.

26:20That's a great answer. That's a very good answer.

26:23Matt, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your time.

26:26And I look forward to catching up with you down the road and seeing where you're at and what you've

26:30been doing.

26:31Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

26:33Yes, sir.

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