- 12 hours ago
John, Jenny, and Shelby discuss the emphasis on hearing God's voice within YWAM and the wider Pentecostal and charismatic movement. They examine how personal impressions, dreams, prophetic words, spiritual warfare, and leadership guidance can shape decisions involving relationships, service, travel, clothing, music, and everyday life.
The discussion compares extraordinary biblical accounts of God speaking with wisdom, counsel, knowledge, and discernment. It also explores spiritual authority, fear of missing God's will, pressure to perform spirituality, surveillance, the Seven Mountain Mandate, dominionism, and the real-world consequences of allowing another person's claimed revelation to override individual judgment.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:54 Hearing God’s Voice in YWAM
07:03 When Divine Guidance Becomes Authority
13:43 Biblical Guidance vs. Direct Revelation
19:14 Fear, Certainty, and Spiritual Surveillance
26:04 The Seven Mountain Mandate
32:08 Dominionism and the Us-vs.-Them Mentality
39:48 “Thus Saith the Lord” and Spiritual Authority
45:02 The Pressure to Perform Spirituality
54:01 The Real-World Consequences
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion compares extraordinary biblical accounts of God speaking with wisdom, counsel, knowledge, and discernment. It also explores spiritual authority, fear of missing God's will, pressure to perform spirituality, surveillance, the Seven Mountain Mandate, dominionism, and the real-world consequences of allowing another person's claimed revelation to override individual judgment.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:54 Hearing God’s Voice in YWAM
07:03 When Divine Guidance Becomes Authority
13:43 Biblical Guidance vs. Direct Revelation
19:14 Fear, Certainty, and Spiritual Surveillance
26:04 The Seven Mountain Mandate
32:08 Dominionism and the Us-vs.-Them Mentality
39:48 “Thus Saith the Lord” and Spiritual Authority
45:02 The Pressure to Perform Spirituality
54:01 The Real-World Consequences
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:39at william-branham.org.
00:41And with me, I have my co-hosts, researchers, and friends, Jenny McGrath and Shelby Hoffer,
00:46former members of YWAM, Youth with a Mission.
00:49Shelby, Jenny, it's good to be back and to talk about hearing God's voice.
00:54I actually just had this conversation with somebody yesterday.
00:57I was doing an interview with somebody who escaped, and this was one of the big problems
01:02for them.
01:03People would come up to them and say, God spoke to me and told me that you're doing something
01:07or whatever it is wrong.
01:09And they're scratching their head thinking, did God really say that?
01:12I don't know that what I'm doing is that wrong.
01:15And I got to thinking about it.
01:16It's widespread throughout the Pentecostal charismatic movement.
01:19The leadership has claimed just almost in a blanket statement that God speaks to them
01:27continuously from behind the pulpit.
01:29And because the crowds are parroting what the ministers are saying, they start saying
01:34it too, whether God spoke to them or not.
01:36And I got curious because, as you both know, the New Apostolic Reformation, YWAM, all of these
01:43different entities, they're all interconnected through this apostolic network.
01:46And I was wondering how much the God spoke to me, God's voice to you, theology, spread
01:52into youth with a mission.
01:53Thank you so much, John.
01:55Yeah, it's definitely an integral part, I would say.
01:59And I think Jenny can agree.
02:01And it is their sort of third foundational value.
02:04So, if we have to know God and then to make Him known, their third foundational value is
02:10hearing God's voice.
02:10So, they talk about that YWAM is committed to creating with God through listening to Him,
02:18praying His prayers, and obeying His commands in matters great and small.
02:23So, we are dependent upon hearing His voice as individuals, together in team context and
02:29in larger gatherings as an integral part of our process for decision making.
02:34So, there you can see really the spectrum that it covers in terms of the ways that they believe
02:42it is important to hear God's voice as an individual in your team context from matters
02:48great and small.
02:49So, that can be something as big as, you know, who should I be marrying or where should I be
02:56moving to and serving to what sort of outfit should I wear today in case I go out into the
03:04world and someone believes that they should talk to someone who's wearing a green sweater.
03:10And if I'm not wearing my green sweater, then I will miss that opportunity to potentially
03:14connect with someone.
03:15So, I would say it's very widespread.
03:19I would agree.
03:20Um, I'm just thinking about my own experience and so many experiences of people I knew and
03:26even as you talked, Shelby, I feel like the same paralysis in my body.
03:30Like, I was so afraid that I would be mishearing the voice of God and I think it's also, it's
03:37half of the coin and the other side of the coin is this strong emphasis on spiritual warfare
03:44and demons talking to you.
03:47And, um, I recently reread, uh, Dan Bauman's book about being imprisoned in Iran and he
03:55shares this really devastating story about trying to commit suicide and then says, I knew
04:01it was Satan trying to tell me to do that.
04:05Not, I was in a really difficult place, you know, and like normal things that would happen
04:10that would make someone struggle with going on to live.
04:14And so, I think, um, that feels important to touch on as we talk about hearing the voice
04:19of God because it's so coupled with this frenzy of spiritual warfare and then how spiritual
04:28warfare gets used as justification for dominionism.
04:32Because if Satan and evil and dark forces are taking over our minds or spheres of society,
04:40then we have to Christianize those and Christianize government to fight evil.
04:47I'm glad you mentioned the Satan's voice type theology because that's really, for me,
04:53that's the scariest part of all of this.
04:54When you get in this mindset where there are continually angels and demons infesting your
05:00world, and I'm using infesting, I guess, on the demon side, not the angelic side, but
05:05you're looking for an angel and a demon when they're not there, you start to see them when
05:09they're not there.
05:10People will become in that mindset.
05:11And I watch enough of the crime documentaries to know how dangerous this can be.
05:16But the moment you start to see demons talking to you, that's the point.
05:20You probably need to go check yourself into a hospital because bad things can happen.
05:24But yet, that dominates the movement.
05:26I went to several churches where I heard people saying that they were either hearing a voice
05:31of God or they were hearing a voice from Satan and they had to be careful watching what was
05:36being said to them.
05:37And I look back now and I think, how close were we to all just having another Jonestown?
05:44It's really that scary for me.
05:45And whenever I think about this being indoctrinated into younger people, that's one of the reasons
05:52actually why I started looking into Youth with a Mission.
05:54When you can get that mindset into a young person and develop it from an early stage,
06:01that starts to change their entire trajectory.
06:04They start to look for angels and demons when they're not there.
06:07And it's really, really harmful.
06:08The younger you are, the more programmable you are, I guess I would say.
06:13And so I wanted to explore how much of this is getting into Youth with a Mission.
06:17And like I said in the last podcast, the deeper I dig, the worse this picture looks.
06:23I'll just say it like that.
06:24But yeah, so God's voice speaking to you from the ministries, from the people who are
06:30in charge.
06:31The other problem that I think I want to address in this podcast is whenever a person who's
06:37in leadership starts to feel like they're empowered with this, they start to feel like
06:43whatever is the word that God is allegedly speaking through them now becomes an authority
06:48over the people they're speaking to.
06:51Branham was one of many people who did this, but he would say, God is speaking to me, I
06:55have the spoken word, I have the rhema, whatever it is.
06:58Then towards the end of his life, he's saying things like, I am God's voice to you.
07:02Yes, I think it's really important to acknowledge, of course, that there are going to be people
07:10who will believe that they're hearing from God and they will be intentionally trying not
07:17to use that power over others.
07:20You know, they want other people to hear for themselves and things like that.
07:24And that's great.
07:25And those people certainly exist in the Y1 sphere.
07:28And there are a lot of people who will take that sort of power and authority and use that
07:38either overtly or covertly to manipulate and control people behind the scenes.
07:44Now, that might not be in an intentionally malignant way, but it can be like, well, I think I know
07:53what's best for this person.
07:55And so, I'm going to encourage them to pray again.
08:00You know, this was something that in my member care work with the clients that I worked with,
08:06I saw very often is an intense amount of stress put on people because their leadership had,
08:14you know, my clients were burning themselves out in service to YWAM before God, you know,
08:21via YWAM, and they would reach a point of recognizing, I can't keep going.
08:26I have to slow down or I have to take a break.
08:29And they would be met with another request, you know, well, we really, we were praying
08:33about it.
08:34We think that you should lead the next DTS or you should lead this next school or you should
08:38join this, you know, you should lead the media team or you should lead the communications
08:42team or something else and go pray about it.
08:47And then, you know, the people I was working with, they had gone and prayed about it, quote
08:51unquote, prayed about it and come back to leadership and said, I feel like this is not the right
08:56time.
08:57I shouldn't be taking on something else right now.
08:59I'm not doing well.
09:00Or even if they were doing well, just, I feel like I'm not supposed to be taking on something
09:04else.
09:05And then the leadership would kind of say, well, we really felt like this is genuinely what
09:10God had for you.
09:10Would you go and pray again?
09:13And to me, that was always a massive red flag of their, then that tells me they believe
09:20that they are hearing from God more clearly than you are hearing from God and your own
09:26relationship with God or your ability to, quote unquote, hear God's voice for you was not
09:32as strong as theirs.
09:34So that's sort of a more covert way that I think that is used very often.
09:40I've seen it used very often in the organization.
09:46And that's really sad because that creates an immense amount of self-doubt for someone because
09:54you can't argue with someone saying that they've heard from God.
10:01How do you argue that?
10:02I mean, now I believe, you know, as I'm studying theology and things like that, I think there's
10:06plenty that you can argue about.
10:09But when you, yeah, your whole life is sort of built up into these systems, it feels very
10:15dangerous to try to argue against someone else hearing God for you, vision casting for
10:23your life.
10:24You know, these are things when we talk about high control religious groups, these are the
10:28signs that we're talking about.
10:30Someone else trying to take a certain spiritual position in your life.
10:34Yeah.
10:35And I'd like to come at it from another angle as well, because I absolutely could speak
10:39to the abuses of power that happen, and they certainly do.
10:43And I have my own stories to share about that.
10:45And I really love this book called Religious Affects by Donovan O'Shafer, and it talks about
10:56affect and basically how our emotions get manipulated by really high technology and media in certain
11:08environments and what it means to question how our bodies get manipulated.
11:12And I find that, too, in terms of things that I felt really passionate about, but I didn't
11:20question.
11:21You know, I was introduced to Uganda via Invisible Children and this documentary-style film in
11:27the early 2000s, and was one of many, many, many, many young white women that then felt we
11:33were called to Uganda without questioning the racial and gender socializations and implications
11:40that tugged on our heartstrings and socialization in the first place.
11:45And I say that because then I put myself in extremely dangerous situations.
11:51My very first time, I was in northern Uganda without a computer, without a way to contact
11:57people, without a place to stay after someone who had been paying for an inn that we were
12:04staying in came back to America.
12:05She literally left, and I was like, well, God's telling me to stay in Gulu, which really, I
12:10just wanted to stay in Gulu.
12:12But by then, I had so known.
12:14If I use this language, no one can question it.
12:17And I just walked down the street not knowing where I would stay, and because of white privilege
12:25and many other things, I ended up finding safety and places to stay.
12:29But I also continued to put myself in very precarious situations.
12:33And I think that missions in itself can kind of be this addictive pattern where you get so
12:41used to these very scary, very intense, very emotionally driven experiences that you then
12:48keep putting yourself in riskier and riskier situations and saying, well, God is telling
12:55me to do this.
12:56God is calling me to this country where it's illegal to proselytize.
13:00So, I'm going to go do that without questioning the socialization that's playing into why and
13:07what are the emotions and sensations that you are saying are God's voice.
13:11And I know we've talked a lot about just the healing of music, and I really love Bird Talker.
13:18They have clearly come from very high-control religion, and their music speaks a lot to
13:23that journey.
13:24But they have one song where their lyrics say, tell me again how you can talk to God, and
13:30how He tells you what to do, and how you know it's not your own thoughts disguised as
13:35something absolute.
13:36And I just feel like that's such a poignant distillation of what we're talking about.
13:41How do you know it's God and not you?
13:43Darrell Bock Before we get too far in this podcast, I think
13:46we should define what is the difference between this version of God speaking to you and what
13:52the Bible says.
13:52And I'm going to tread very cautiously because I have to go into theology a bit to do this.
13:57However, this is actually historical in that the movement from the latter rain movement
14:06on, as it began to develop, they started to change what the Bible really said about God
14:11speaking to you.
14:12Usually when you're reading the Bible and you read about God speaking to a human, it
14:16is an exception to the rule.
14:18It's not the rule.
14:19There are exceptions.
14:21There are exceptional stories.
14:22God speaking to Moses at the burning bush, for example.
14:26That was Moses.
14:27Can you say that every single person that God speaks to is also Moses, right?
14:31You've got Samuel in the temple.
14:32You've got the prophets.
14:34You've got Joseph with the dreams.
14:36And I'm going off of memory.
14:38But you've got these examples that are really exceptional stories.
14:41But whenever you start to read about the way that God speaks to normal humanity, not
14:49the exceptions to the rule, it's usually just simply wisdom.
14:52Give me wisdom to make the right decision.
14:55It's prayer for wisdom.
14:56It's counsel.
14:57Let's put our heads together and let's figure this thing out.
15:01It's knowledge.
15:02Let me understand the problem so that I make the right decision.
15:07Discernment is a funny thing because they actually, in the latter rain movement and beyond, they
15:12twisted what the word discernment meant to, instead of spiritually discerning good versus
15:19evil, that type of thing.
15:20Instead, it's like fortune-telling, forecasting, knowing the deep secrets of somebody's heart.
15:27That's how we would say it in the Branham religion.
15:31But what I'm trying to say is, in general, Christians who hear God's voice according to
15:36the biblical structures, it's not something that's fantastical.
15:40But the movement wanted it to be, you too can have this fantastic experience.
15:45You too can be just like Moses at the burning bush.
15:47And the problem is, nobody really sees a burning bush and has an audible voice of God speaking
15:53to them.
15:54And usually, the ones who say, I have an audible voice, they're either scamming the people
15:58or they're somebody who probably should take some meds for their psychological issues.
16:04Yeah, I think it's really attractive to think about the fact that we all can hear God's
16:11voice for all of these things.
16:13But I think what drives it even more, at least in this organization, or maybe in this sort
16:20of movement, is a fear of missing something that God has for you.
16:26So again, when we're talking about sort of signposts towards what is spiritual abuse, or what does
16:33high control groups look like, especially religious groups, there's threats of spiritual
16:39consequences.
16:40Now, Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphries have written a really accessible book called
16:44Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse.
16:46If that's something that you're looking for more accessible definitions.
16:51She's also written a very academic book that was very big and very hard to read.
16:56But the threats of spiritual consequences is a really driving factor, because if you miss
17:07hearing exactly what it is that God wants you to do, you risk getting outside of His will,
17:14which has other consequences of you'll miss something amazing that He has for you.
17:19You could miss your spouse.
17:20You could miss a direction that you need to go.
17:23You know, He wants you to go over here, and you've gone over here, and oh no, how is
17:27He going to get your attention back?
17:29How is He, oh no, like, it's this sense of like, and the panic can really creep up.
17:35And so, there is this drive to enter into this sort of process of needing to hear God's voice
17:42for, you know, all these sorts of really little things.
17:46Like I said, even down to what should I eat today?
17:50What should I wear today?
17:51Now, not everybody goes that extreme, of course, but I have spoken with too many people where
17:58that is sort of the natural consequence of this sort of teaching and of the, like you
18:04said, John, the institutionalization of this belief system where discernment is no longer
18:10like what you said you would describe as a biblical discernment, but instead is this sort
18:15of secret knowledge, you know, they even talk about, you have words of knowledge for
18:20someone, you know, you can read someone as you're praying for them and hear God about
18:27them or for them.
18:29Plenty of podcasts have talked about that, how that happens in Bethel and IHOP KC.
18:34It's a very same sort of thing.
18:37There was a lot of connections between those three organizations.
18:40So, I think that's where we begin to talk about that unhealth or that historical connection
18:46to the movement of like latter rain, word of faith, this sort of thing, which turned hearing
18:51the voice of God into this practice that had really dire, dire consequences if you got
18:58it wrong.
18:59And so, therefore, if someone is coming to you and saying, well, I heard God for you, of course,
19:06you're going to be so much happier to maybe receive what that person has from you because,
19:11well, they feel so certain, right?
19:13It's a certainty.
19:14It's a search for certainty, I think, is what actually drives this practice.
19:21When I was, you know, probably 19 years old, Slumdog Millionaire, the movie had come out and
19:28I really liked the soundtrack.
19:29And I was like in, I think it was in Whole Foods or somewhere random.
19:33And I was so afraid that I think there was cuss words and I also thought like I'd be opening
19:40myself up to Hindu or Muslim spirits because of the movie that had Hindu and Muslim people
19:47in it.
19:48But I really liked it and I was like, God, do you want me to get it?
19:51And I felt like God said no, but I bought it anyways.
19:54And I was a wreck forever.
19:58And I was like, should I take it back?
20:00I shouldn't have this.
20:01And I just like was so distraught over just a CD and listening to music.
20:07And it just, it makes it like being so far removed from it now.
20:11It's like not silly because I take it seriously, but it's all, it's almost laughable because
20:16it's so difficult to understand unless I think you're in that world and you know what that
20:22fear, that fear feels like.
20:24And I was thinking, John, I think, I don't know if Shelby, you experienced this, but the
20:28language I used for that was like, or I heard for that was someone reading your mail.
20:33And there was like no sense of privacy.
20:37I think there, I think that that's what feels really important too, is hearing the voice of
20:41God feels like a surveillance and like a constraint because if all of these people around can hear
20:49the voice of God and if I've lusted or if I've stolen or if I bought a CD I shouldn't
20:55have,
20:56like whatever, you know, benign or not, like someone, God is going to tell someone.
21:02And I think it leads to such a self-policing where those who don't hold positions of power
21:09kind of take in that surveillance because you never know who's going to read your mail.
21:15And it leads to just such a constriction of humanity and living and vitality and making
21:21mistakes and learning and growing and all of the things that come with being human.
21:26Darrell Bock That's such a good point that I have wanted
21:29to bring up in a podcast, but I didn't know how best to do it.
21:33And actually, you did it far better than me.
21:35It is surveillance.
21:37They turn this hearing God's voice into this thing where they'll say things like,
21:42I can peer into your very soul.
21:44And I grew up with men who claimed that they could do this, or maybe they did an outright
21:49claim, but they led you to believe they could do this.
21:52And everybody was scared of them.
21:53Everybody was scared to do anything because the all-seeing eye might see you.
21:58That was one of the statements that we had.
22:00And later I learned that they were doing things like checking people's social media to see how
22:05they were doing, what they were doing, what they were suffering with, struggling with.
22:09There was intel that was coming in.
22:11And so when you went to these men who could have God speak to them, allegedly, they already
22:18knew everything about you anyway.
22:20And the funny part about it is, those that don't have the intel, they'll go to just very
22:25common basic moral codes that every human should have.
22:29Love your neighbor, forgive others, flee immorality.
22:33You mentioned the sexual sins.
22:34They will, in blanket statements, say that I see somebody's really struggling with a sexual
22:40sin.
22:40Well, in a building of 300 people, you're going to have somebody that's doing this, right?
22:46You're going to have this because we're all humans.
22:48There are humans that make mistakes.
22:51But the other thing that I'll put with this, which is problematic, is, and this ties to another
22:56conversation that I recently had, what they consider to be God's voice and what they're
23:02telling you, the way that they're framing it, are two separate things.
23:06They're framing it as fortune telling, which the Bible condemns in the Old Testament, under
23:12Old Covenant law, they would stone you if you were a sorcerer or if you were a fortune teller.
23:16But they will put it out that they can see into your future, basically.
23:23So people, before they get married, they'll go see, is this the right person that I should marry?
23:27Well, that's what you would do with a fortune teller, not a Christian minister.
23:30What city should I live in?
23:32We had this often here.
23:34People would come to Jeffersonville, they would seek counsel with the leadership and say,
23:38should I move to Jeffersonville?
23:40Tell us what God says.
23:42And in the end, they're just basically offloading their decisions to the fortune teller.
23:47And that is anti-Christian.
23:50Beth Dombkowski It's certainly something that you see
23:52throughout the movement.
23:53And this is worldwide.
23:54There are the people who are known as those people, right?
23:59Like you go to a conference or if they come to your base to teach on a school or something,
24:03it's like, oh, whoa, like that guy's coming.
24:06Like, oh, I want a word from him or like, oh, scary.
24:10I got to go sort of get myself right with the Lord because they're going to read my mail,
24:15you know, sort of thing.
24:15And I remember sitting in some of these, you know, instances and like desperately wanting
24:21a word from the Lord, you know, from this prophet or from this teacher.
24:25And I would just be like, Lord, like, please like see me, you know, like pick me, like,
24:30if this is you, like, let him like, you know, just reach out and say like, God has a word
24:34for you, you know, sort of thing.
24:37We had this one person who would come into our staff meetings and just like read people's
24:42mail and people were like, oh, you know, so shocked about, oh my gosh.
24:45But when you think back on it, you're like, that could really be applied to like many different
24:51things or, you know, you make it make sense.
24:54Like as human beings, we have such a deep need for sense making.
24:59And I mean, that's a whole other psychological, you know, topic that you can get into.
25:03But yeah, just this honor or this like power that is given to those people who everyone
25:12knows, like they're the people who hear from God.
25:16I mean, there was even like one of my former leaders here, like people would say like, oh
25:20gosh, like all this person, all this leader has to do is hug me.
25:24And I just start crying.
25:26Like, it's just, you know, that's the spirit of the Lord in this male leader.
25:31And I don't even want to go and like hug that person because I know I'm going to just start
25:36crying and they're just going to like start saying things to me.
25:39Turns out this person was a massive abuser.
25:42So there's just this very innate power that, and everybody knows it, right?
25:49Everybody knows those people in the organization, that person who's coming to teach or that person
25:53who's speaking at the conference.
25:55And they're given an inordinate amount of power over others because they quote unquote hear
26:01the voice of God better, faster, more clearly, more specifically than you do.
26:08Which ultimately leads me back to Lauren Cunningham because he was like the pinnacle in that organization
26:15of who heard the voice of God and the implications of that.
26:20So I'd love to actually read just a little excerpt from this book, The Seven Mountain Mandate by
26:25Matthew Bode.
26:27It's a beautiful book.
26:28It talks a lot about Lauren Cunningham, Bill Bright, Francis Schaeffer, all the way up
26:35through more present day examples.
26:37But it says, in the summer of 1975, Lauren Cunningham was praying and thinking about how
26:45we could turn the world around for Jesus.
26:48He wrote that Satan's authority over the world needed to be deposed.
26:52This kind of spiritual war rhetoric was growing in some evangelical circles and the strategies
26:58to meet the moment were changing.
27:03Evangelicalism remained important, but it was also meant that the gospel should capture
27:08entire societies in a broader institutional fashion, especially the most influential areas
27:16of culture.
27:17Cunningham immediately put the list of seven areas, that's the seven mountain mandate, to
27:23use in his organization, sharing it as early as September 1975, with British Youth with a Mission
27:31staff.
27:32And then in 1978, he started a mission training center in Hawaii to equip the next generation
27:39of leaders in this cultural transformation.
27:42And well into the 21st century, the list has remained part of the organization's training.
27:48And so again, I think we can't talk about hearing the voice of God and who hears the voice of
27:54God without talking about the seven mountain mandate and dominionism.
28:00Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern
28:06Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements
28:11into the new apostolic reformation?
28:13You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:21On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
28:27Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and
28:33digital versions of each book.
28:35You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
28:41movements.
28:41If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
28:47button at the top.
28:48And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
28:53listening to or watching.
28:55On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:00Seven Mountain Mandate is something that really interests me for multiple reasons.
29:06If you've studied the podcast or the books that I have, I focus heavily on Christian identity
29:11and Christian nationalism, all of these different themes.
29:14And whenever I discovered the Seven Mountains Mandate was actually recently, just a couple
29:19years ago.
29:20I was reading this thinking, they did this back in the early 1900s, and it didn't work.
29:25And it was usually the bad guys that were doing this kind of thing.
29:27They wanted to basically change religion, politics, entertainment.
29:30They wanted to mold it and shape it and control it.
29:33And that last word is the big one.
29:35We must control it because other people have other opinions and other views, and not everybody
29:40has our Christian mindset.
29:43And on the surface, that sounds good.
29:46Because if you're a Christian, you want people to do Christian things and you want a moral
29:50code.
29:50But I got to thinking about it, which mindset do you choose?
29:55There's different varieties of belief sets that are still within Christianity, and some
30:02of them are on the more liberal side.
30:03Some of them are on the more fundamentalist side.
30:06And usually, it's the hardcore fundamentalists that say we want to control it and make it
30:11fit our hardcore fundamentalism.
30:12For example, in movies, you've got one of my favorite movie types is a detective story
30:19or a crime story where you've got somebody who gets killed.
30:22You've got a murderer, and they're violating the Ten Commandments.
30:25They murdered somebody.
30:26Do you go so far as to say that that's anti-Christian because this is portraying somebody who violated
30:31the Ten Commandments?
30:33And then you take that away.
30:34Well, what good is the murder mystery if there is no murder in it?
30:37It gets crazy because they want to control it to the levels that the political environment
30:46of their teaching reach during a certain specific political event or political horizon, and they
30:53want to focus on that specific element of politics.
30:57And I'm saying this, like, homosexuality is a big one right now.
31:01It wasn't always.
31:02You go back in time, and they had a different political issue.
31:05And whether you agree or disagree with homosexuality, you must agree that in this world, there are
31:12people who are living homosexual lifestyles, if you portray this in a movie and exclude
31:17all of that category of people, now you have a city that's not matching the actual city
31:24that you're in.
31:25So Chicago, for instance, if you take away all of the homosexuality of Chicago and put
31:29it into a movie, the movie's not quite accurate.
31:31So for me, I started looking at it much differently.
31:35If they want to control it, my fear is how far will they go with it?
31:39And usually the types of people that want to control it are people who I wouldn't want
31:44in control of what I'm watching anyway, because these types of people don't really align with
31:49my Christian theology at all.
31:51So I took a step back and I said, that's just the entertainment side.
31:56Now what about all of the others?
31:58Can I say that I want them to control my business, my politics, all of these different seven mountains?
32:03And suddenly I realized everybody needs to run screaming from this thing.
32:07I have found in my research around understanding, you know, high control religious groups or
32:15dangerous authoritarian groups or even cults, often what is a needed element is an us versus
32:23them mentality and understanding.
32:26So there has to be a villain or there has to be a goal to accomplish in some way.
32:33And I think that you see that even as Jenny mentioned earlier, the, you know, flip side
32:38of maybe hearing God's voice is the sort of spiritual warfare, the satanic, you know, spirit
32:45world out there.
32:46And so you need to have some sort of us versus them to keep people there, to keep people coming
32:55and to keep people engaged.
32:57And so I think the seven mountains mandate is a really helpful tool to continue to keep
33:03people engaged in coming to YWAMS training, to engaging with their quote unquote, unaccredited
33:11university.
33:13Because if you continue to talk about the things that need to be taken over, or even if you soften
33:21it to the language of influence, you know, we should be going out there and influencing.
33:27Again, from my 18 years experience globally working with the University of the Nations arm as well
33:34as just, you know, other, the other regular good old everyday YWAM situation, there is not as much
33:44turnover like that you would expect if this is actually the goal, if the real goal is to send people
33:53who are called, quote unquote, called into those, quote unquote, spheres, to go back out to come
33:59receive training and then to go back out into those spheres and to have just a healthy Christian
34:05influence, you know, be a good Christ follower, bring sort of love and peace and hope and goodness
34:12and gentleness and faithfulness, you know, the fruit of the spirit into those spheres, you would
34:16see more of a turnover, people coming in and then people going out back into those places.
34:21And while I'm sure that that happens on some level, again, the vast majority of people who
34:27come in for training in YWAM are often recruited to stay in YWAM.
34:33And YWAM around the world, while there might be various places that are engaged in a real local
34:41way. Again, we're talking about sort of the real vast majority of places that are not,
34:47they don't have any meaningful connection into their local community, or they will advertise like,
34:54we specialize in reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants. And that's absolutely not true.
35:01The only work that they're doing is going and praying around the border. So there is this,
35:07I think, sort of use of the seven mountain mandates and the language around wanting to influence the
35:17spheres, or even, as you said, to some, there's those extremes of wanting to take dominion over
35:23those spheres is a really helpful tool to keep people engaged, because it keeps them on this level
35:31of an us versus them sort of situation, we have a job to complete, we have a goal to fulfill.
35:37And YWAM is very happy to be the vehicle that allows or invites those people to use YWAM as a
35:45vehicle to try to do that. But the actual influence or impact that's made, I think is questionable.
35:54Randall Ballmer is a Christian historian, and he has this distinction between what he calls
36:02Christianity and Christendom. And to me, it's like, I will be the first person to advocate for you and
36:09your faith as a Christian and what that means for you. That is very different than Christendom that
36:17says that that faith, whatever that particular brand is, should dictate what other people do,
36:22regardless of what faith or non-religious identity that they have. And I recently saw,
36:32it's funny to quote a meme, but it was very poignant, where it said, I can't do that. That's
36:38against my religion is religious freedom. You can't do that. It's against my religion is fascism.
36:44And I thought that was just a helpful way to break it down. Like, that's what we're talking about. It's
36:49like, imposing this very, and this to me feels so related to what we've already been talking about
36:56with the other YWAM values of knowing God and making God known. It's a very, very, very, very specific
37:06white male, you know, like, all of these things that are this image of who the God of YWAM is
37:14that
37:15don't include large populations. Like, you were talking about, like, the queer folks, John. Like,
37:22this image of God does not include women. It often does not include people of color. It does not
37:28include people that aren't white, straight, cisgender men saying, how has God created me in God's image?
37:35If the Bible says, let us create mankind in our image, then, wow, there must be a really
37:41multifaceted God that has created so much beauty and diversity. But that's not what is being
37:49promulgated through this ideology.
37:52And the key word there is diversity. And I don't mean it in the political terms that is being used
37:56right now. Just diversity of human opinions and thought. Anybody who has ever been on a committee
38:03who makes decisions will look at the Seven Mountains mandate and say, are you guys crazy?
38:08What in the world are you thinking? When you get a bunch of people together, you're going to get a
38:12bunch of different ideas. But more than that, the situations aren't black and white. They're complex
38:17situations. Like I mentioned with the movie, The Murder Mystery, that's just a basic, basic example. But
38:24look at things like murder itself. There are cases where there are people who will go into a nation and
38:32they will start to kill women and children. And it's better to go take out a leader than it is
38:38to let
38:39wide population, wide swaths of population die. And you have to make these kind of decisions on a
38:45committee. Broaden that to just governance. You've got different people with different ideas on how they
38:52should be governed. But what the Seven Mountains mandate and those who are advocating it for are pushing is a
38:58dictatorship where we elect a leader and he tells everybody what to do. And I'm not going to go too
39:04far with
39:04it. In this podcast, I actually may never. But if you look at some of the examples of what's happening
39:10in the news right
39:10now, there are leadership who are in that mindset who are doing things and going too far. And that's really
39:16the
39:16problem. What happens whenever the person who's not using the body of the committee to make a group decision goes
39:23to
39:24the extreme and goes outside of what the general committee would do? Well, how do you stop them? What do
39:30you
39:31impose to make it where it's actually a godly thing that's happening? Because humans, given ultimate power, will go too
39:39far
39:40with it. I'll just say it like that. Take that back to the conversation that we had earlier. Many of
39:46the
39:46people advocating for this are also of the God told me mindset. And there's a key phrase. I don't know
39:52if
39:52you had it in Youth with a Mission or not, but we had this phrase that was thrown around by
39:56leadership,
39:57thus saith the Lord. In the Bible, this is a huge thing. This is literally the audible voice of God
40:03speaking and whatever is said is the ultimate decree because it came directly from God. It wasn't the
40:10prophet. The prophet was a mouthpiece. It would be like holding a megaphone. The prophet is the
40:16megaphone for God's voice to the people. But they started using it in the latter rain movement,
40:21post-World War II healing revival, like it was anybody could do it. In fact, I think there's a
40:26quote out there where one of the leaders said anybody can do it. And everybody started doing it.
40:31They started saying, thus saith the Lord, this, this, and this. And then what they said didn't really
40:36happen. So you had to question, well, was that really God or not? But they're using it for that
40:41controlling weight. If God told me, then you must do whatever it is that I say. Combine that with
40:47Seven Mountains mandate and putting somebody in, in a monarchy like they're, they're actually advocating
40:53for. This is the recipe for disaster. Again, in, in my experience, and I, I want to say I've certainly
41:00read stories, uh, particularly in like early days of YOM, where there was very much that
41:08this is God speaking, thus saith the Lord, you know, sort of language and sort of, um, use
41:14of hearing God's voice. Uh, and I would say in my experience over the last 20 years, it was softened
41:23to,
41:23I feel like God is saying X, Y, and Z, right? So there was trying to be this, like, we're
41:30like,
41:31I don't really have peace about that. Like, this is one of my pet peeves. Is this like,
41:37I prayed about it. I don't really have peace about it. Or I'm going to do this completely insane thing
41:42because I have peace about it. I didn't hear clearly from God, but I have peace about it. Um,
41:48which I just did not think is a great way to be making decisions for all sorts of reasons. So
41:53I think there's been a softer tone in that, because if you say, well, I feel like God is
42:00saying to me, then you're able to sort of pull it back. If it turns out that it was wrong
42:05or something like that. Um, again, that's in the past and, and potentially even currently
42:11there are people out there. Uh, I can think of several genuine, like what anybody would be able
42:18to say, this was a cult situations in YWAM that are just now being shut down. Um, in England
42:27and in America, I can think of at least three right now that I know of that are being told
42:33you can't use YWAM's name any longer. Uh, and so there certainly was a lot of that going on,
42:39that very concrete, very, um, directive, very thus saith the Lord sort of mentality. Uh, and it's
42:47really hard. You can't argue with that. Yeah. I think it's making me think of a, uh, episode you
42:53and I did John around like the branding of YWAM and it is usually more of this positive spin.
43:01It's not this like, thus saith the Lord, like more liturgical almost brand. It is this very
43:09like whimsy and like, you know, Globetrotter, like this light, light and breezy branding. Um,
43:17that that was my experience too, where it would often be like, well, I, I had a dream that you
43:24were doing this and it was said in a way that doesn't recognize the person telling me that
43:29that was the base leader's wife and who had a lot of power over me and who was my mentor.
43:34And it was like, well, if you had a dream about that, clearly that was God telling you that I
43:39should do this regardless of the fact that I have no training or desire to do this. And my body
43:45is
43:46completely shutting down with overwhelm and burnout. Um, but yeah, I think that I would agree with
43:52Shelby, like at least in my experience in YWAM, it was much more like light and airy in a way
43:59that, um, hid the impact of what was actually being said.
44:06Darrell Bock Yeah. And that's one of the more
44:07subtle ways of doing it. We, in what I came out of, we had both. We had people that were
44:13doing
44:13exactly what you said and we had people that say just directly, I was praying to God and he told
44:18me this, this, and this. The problem is in both cases, it's edging towards prophecy because if God is
44:24speaking through you, then you must be a prophet. That's how, that's how this works. Biblically,
44:29that's how this works. But yet in the New Testament, it says, let everything be judged
44:33through the mouth of two or three prophets. So you can't have one single person telling you to do
44:38something and telling you God said it without having somebody else to back it up. And I get to
44:44thinking about it one day, there needs to be people who will rise up and say, well, that may be,
44:49maybe God is telling you this, but God also gave me a brain. And my brain says, I don't agree
44:54with
44:54what you're saying, because that also is biblical as well. More biblical than the one prophet versus
45:00the mouth of two or three.
45:02Beth Dombkowski Yes. But if you do that, then you get ostracized and rejected from the group. And so
45:09I remember when I was in Perth, Australia, and there's thousands of stories out there about Perth
45:15and the craziness that goes on there. Um, we had intercession every week as we all do in every
45:23web and base. Um, it's sort of required and we were going through the nine steps of intercession
45:30and there was an immense pressure to manufacture something that you heard from God because you
45:40were being watched and there was always a staff person in the group, in the intercession group.
45:45And so if you were not consistently coming up and hearing God's voice for something,
45:51then you would sort of get talking to, you know, about like, Hey, what's going on in your life?
45:55What sort of sin is blocking you from hearing God's voice? Um, and so there was an immense pressure to
46:02create something. And when you add that sort of pressure together with the power dynamics that
46:07exist, like Jenny said, okay, if this is the, my leader or my leader's wife or, or someone in,
46:13in some position of power over me, who's coming to me and telling me this thing that can even be
46:17someone who's been invited into the inner circle of leadership or the people of power. So maybe they
46:23wouldn't identify themselves as someone in position of power over others, but there's proximity that
46:28they have. And so they do have this inherent power, um, that it's just the pressure and the
46:36consequences and the fear that surrounds that I think makes a really unhelpful cocktail to lead
46:42people to quote unquote, hear things from God that keep them safe in those spaces. And I think it's
46:51really important to pay attention to that. So for every story out there that someone really genuinely
46:56believes that they heard something from God, that they saw God move, I certainly know several of those.
47:01I feel like there are things that I have experienced with God in my life that I cannot deny that,
47:07that God exists. And I would never try to do that. Um, however, I also know that when I was
47:14swimming in
47:15those waters, there was plenty that there's plenty of pressure to, to perform this sort of spirituality.
47:23So for everybody, everyone that someone has said, I genuinely believe I've heard God's voice on this,
47:29and this was a real thing. And this was tested, like you said, with two or three voices or however
47:33that worked out, however that person came to that conclusion themselves, there are 10 that someone
47:40is out there feeling afraid that if they don't speak up, if they don't create something that they've
47:45heard from God, then they will be punished in some way. And I think it's really important to pay
47:49attention to that and to not just dismiss the concerns that we're highlighting here around these
47:55things to say, oh, well, that's just some people's experience. But to say, if people are having that
48:00experience because of this teaching, we need to be paying attention to it. We need to get serious
48:05about it because so many reasons, but go listen to previous episodes to find out what those reasons are.
48:12It was this like apostolic, charismatic, Pentecostal movement. And so there was almost this hierarchy.
48:21Like, if you are a prophet, that's a great thing. You are like on fire, you're filled with the Spirit.
48:28If you're an apostle, woof, even more so. And so even, you know, all the way down to can you
48:35speak
48:35in tongues or not? And all of these pressures that you feel to perform that you have the voice of
48:44God.
48:44And I was thinking about a funny but also tragic story. I was talking with a friend years ago about
48:51these experiences. And they were, it was not in YWAM, I don't think. They were in some kind of other
48:57charismatic circle where they were, like, required to speak in tongues before they went out and left
49:03for dinner. And she was telling her friend this afterwards. And her friend goes, well, don't you
49:08know that you just need to say, bought a Honda, shoulda bought a Kia really fast?
49:15And just like, I think that's so, like, hilarious and sad. But how many people just find these ways
49:23of performing that they're speaking in tongues, they're hearing the voice of God. It doesn't take
49:29that much intuition to say something about someone that they might feel as like, oh my gosh,
49:35you wouldn't know that if God wasn't telling you. And it's like, really, I just read your body
49:40language and can tell you probably have a lot of shame. Or, you know, like, X, Y, Z, that are
49:46all
49:46these little hacks, I think, that exist in that world.
49:49Darrell Bock Well, that's just it. People often mistake conscience for God speaking. Whenever they
49:54feel this inner voice, they'll mistake the inner voice for God's voice, not knowing that, yes, it is the
50:00voice that God gave you. And if you read the scriptures, you might even say that that's the Holy Spirit
50:04speaking to you in a way. But it's usually a way of guidance. It's helping you to make a decision,
50:11an informed decision, sometimes making you want to become more informed so that you can make that
50:16decision. You feel this inner thing. But they mistake that for God's voice. But sometimes they
50:23will hear that voice or that feeling that tells them, I need to get more information and make this
50:28decision. But without getting the additional information, they'll just say, I had God speak to
50:33me, and you must do whatever it is that I think. That's just totally wrong, and it's not biblical.
50:38They have turned it into such a thing where they must have impressions, visions, dreams, prophetic words.
50:46You have to have all of these things, or otherwise you're not holy. You don't have the spirit if you
50:51don't have these things. But what about the people who don't actually have those? You can't really
50:56conjure those things up. And yet there were people in the Bible who didn't have this, and so they had
51:02prophets to go to, right? So you have this wide variety of Christians. And if you put them all
51:07into the same box, you're trying to say that every person must become a clone of the leadership. And
51:13that's just not the way life works.
51:16Yeah, a really good friend of mine was on the leadership team with me, and they were very more
51:23reserved, you know, slower to speak, and more listening and sort of sitting back. And they were told that now
51:30because they're on the leadership team that they should be speaking up more in terms of what they're
51:36hearing from God. So in intercession, they need to be sharing what they've heard from God. They need
51:42to be hearing from God, quote unquote, every single time and sharing that because they're leaders and
51:47people will follow their example. In worship, they need to be more expressive because people will
51:52follow their example because they're a leader now. And it was so detrimental to this person because
51:57there is, again, that sense of surveillance of I'm being watched and I have to perform something
52:03that does not feel true or authentic to me. But there's a pressure because I could be removed from
52:09my leadership position if I do not act accordingly. And certainly for myself, like, and this is maybe a
52:17little bit niche, but I think former Y-Bomers will get it because, you know, you have to have your
52:21intercession every week. And it was like, whoever's job it was to lead intercession had to come up with
52:27a topic for intercession. And so you are supposed to just pull something, ideally, out of God's mouth
52:37to pray for a topic. And it was always this, like, thing of like, okay, how long can we take
52:45for the
52:46hour that's intercession by, like, presenting the topic, like, with a PowerPoint? Or we're going to
52:52be praying for this so that in the end, there was maybe only, like, 15 minutes left to actually pray
52:57for it because every week was this pressure, this pressure of someone would bring a random topic
53:04and now we have to magically hear from God what is His heart for this. And the thing is that
53:11it wasn't
53:12just in maybe the small group that you were having intercession, because you could, for instance,
53:16be like, okay, me and John and Jenny, we're in a group every week, we sort of get together and
53:21we're
53:21like, let's just talk about what we did this weekend, you know, like, we don't, just to take
53:25off the pressure. But no, you're supposed to report back. So it's like, okay, who from your group is
53:30going to come up to the front and say what God told you about this topic. So again, just the
53:37pressure
53:38and the stress that exists to perform this action in front of everyone else and the judgment that can
53:46result from that, the real consequences that can result from that if you're not doing it well
53:51enough. It's just their real pain and real consequences and real shame to the way that
53:59this is lived out and played out. And again, like, if you look at the foundational value, you might be
54:04like, this is great. Like, this sounds great. Like, I don't understand what the problem is.
54:08The problem is how the implications of that get lived out in real people's lives and the consequences
54:16of self-doubt, the consequences of choices made that weren't actually your own. And lives change,
54:23like, from who you're going to marry to where you're going to move to where you're going to serve.
54:26Uh, it's their real, real, real, real world consequences.
54:32Yeah, I feel the heaviness as you talk about that. And I just know how many people I know
54:38personally and how many more I don't know, um, who have given years, decades, half centuries of their
54:47lives to this. And, um, a book I really love, uh, is called Sensuous Knowledge. It's by Mina Salami.
54:57And she writes in it that tyrants have always understood the more robotic people are, the more
55:03easily manipulated they are. And I think about that when you talk about this pressure, um, that it
55:09forces you to be robotic and go through the motions and not chit-chat with your friends about what you
55:16did
55:16this weekend and just, like, live and breathe and be human and things that I think Jesus had a very
55:26good example of doing and taking naps and eating good food and not being too bothered by this sense
55:35of urgency and this pressure to be robotic. Um, and so, I'm just, again, grateful for these conversations
55:43and hoping that we can continue hoping and growing and building a world that is more kind and gentle to
55:50our
55:50bodies and to the world.
55:53Absolutely. Thank you so much for doing this.
55:56Thank you. It's always a pleasure to get to chat with you guys, to get to explore some of these
56:00things
56:01together, and to hopefully try to help other people who maybe have been part of YWAM or are curious about
56:09YWAM to think a little bit further than maybe what they've just been told.
56:13Yeah. Thank you both so much.
56:16Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
56:19You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic
56:24reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon,
56:29Kindle, and Audible.
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