- 6 minutes ago
France and Germany have launched a joint task force on breakthrough innovation, co-chaired by Nicolas Dufourcq (Bpifrance) and Rafael Laguna (SprinD). Presented publicly for the first time at VivaTech, the report proposes new modes of action — challenge-driven programmes, empowered programme managers, fast contracting — to equip France with complementary tools, interoperable with Germany, and to spearhead a European approach to breakthrough innovation.
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00:00Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:02Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:03Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:12Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:14Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:14Tanya Cushman Reviewer
00:23Bonjour and good morning.
00:25Please take your seats, ministers.
00:30We talk a lot these days about the global technology,
00:33and it's worth being precise about what's actually at stake.
00:38This isn't just about who builds the next AI model first.
00:43Breakthrough innovation has become a question of strategic power.
00:47Only those who master key technologies
00:49will be able to set the terms in trade disputes and global conflicts.
00:54France and Germany have understood this.
00:57France has mobilized major tech investments through its investment plan, France 2030.
01:04And Germany put together the high-tech agenda
01:07to translate scientific excellence into market success.
01:11But national strategies alone will not be enough to keep pace globally.
01:16That's why, over the past month,
01:19a Franco-German task force has been working on a joint approach.
01:23And just in time for Vivitech, their final report is ready.
01:28Their conclusion?
01:29France should build its own breakthrough innovation agency
01:33modeled on Germany's sprint.
01:35And the two agencies work closely together going forward.
01:41We'll hear directly from the team behind the report a little later.
01:45But let's go straight to the people who will have to turn this into policy.
01:51So, Minister Liske, in the global tech race, the narrative is simple.
01:57The US and China are ahead and Europe is behind.
01:59And the question is how to catch up.
02:01But if I understand correctly, that's not what this initiative is about.
02:05The goal is to start from pole position in entirely new races,
02:10like new computing concepts, long-duration energy storage,
02:15or fully autonomous systems for anti-drone response.
02:18So, what is there to win with that kind of strategy?
02:23I mean, I think we can win it all.
02:26But first, I think it's fair to say that we missed the internet revolution.
02:32We're great users, but we didn't make it.
02:35On AI, I think the jury is still out.
02:38We're catching up.
02:39True to say, the US and China are ahead,
02:42but there's enough strength and potential capabilities in Europe
02:46so that we catch up.
02:47But for the next stage, it hasn't even started.
02:51So, there's no reason why we shouldn't be on the front
02:56and on the pole position of the races that are still coming ahead.
02:59And for this, you need a great collaboration between me and these two guys.
03:06They are in charge of research and innovation.
03:10You and the people who are working with you are going to invent the future.
03:14But if we don't find funds, but also corporations, companies that can be part of that system
03:22to make sure that the innovations that are going to be invented are becoming reality,
03:28then we're not going to win that race.
03:30So, that's why it's important that we're here together.
03:33And the second reason or the second condition for us to succeed is to do it together.
03:41If we don't do it as Europeans, if we don't do it like breaking the walls between us
03:47so that the innovation is ours and not mine or yours, it's not going to work.
03:52And there's one thing that researchers know how to do because they've been doing it for decades.
03:57They know how to work together.
03:59We've seen it recently.
04:00Industrials, not always.
04:02Government, it depends.
04:04Researchers, they know how to do it.
04:05So, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it and we shouldn't be able to use it.
04:10Yeah, thank you for underlining that.
04:11Minister Baer, Sprint was built on the model of DARPA, the US agency famous for focusing on ambitious technological missions
04:20with enormous potential for disruption.
04:22The most iconic example is the internet, which laid the foundation for an entirely new global economy.
04:29How does Sprint identify which fields hold similar potential?
04:33And can you give us concrete examples of breakthrough innovations being worked on there?
04:40So, I think when we established Sprint in 2019, so the idea was that going from our really very, very
04:48good basic research
04:49and we still have the best, one of the best basic researchers and research systems in the world
04:55with our Max Planck and Helmholtz and Leibniz and Fraunhofer, you name it.
05:01And so, we said, how can we transfer that from the universities, from the out of universities, how can we
05:10transform that into business models?
05:12And one of the key goals was to be really, really fast and even faster and get rid of the
05:21micromanagement.
05:21I think that was the most important part of it. And so, you don't count how many pencils do they
05:27use and if it's really successful.
05:30And for example, is it allowed to fail?
05:35So, to be allowed to fail is not in the German DNA.
05:38So, if you are failing, then you are failing. Everyone says, oh, you are failing.
05:42And no one says, oh, that's great, you have an experience and next time you are going to do it
05:46better.
05:47And so, the Sprint, now it's already seven years and in the last seven years,
05:53they really got a lot of trust from so many people outside the government, inside the government.
06:00We have a Sprint Freedom Act where they can operate by themselves.
06:05Not everyone likes that, but I think that is crucial that they can work like that.
06:08And to give you one example, to get the best fusion researchers, for example,
06:15and combine Max Planck with our startups, that is really a big breakthrough.
06:21And I'm sure that when you see our fusion roadmap now to 2030 and to 2040,
06:27that will be the biggest breakthroughs we are going to have on that page.
06:31Yeah, that's a very good and important example.
06:33Minister Baptiste, DARPA-style approaches are built around one idea.
06:38Solve a concrete mission.
06:40Take the DARPA Grand Challenge in 2004.
06:43The goal was simple, but almost impossible.
06:46Yeah, almost impossible, ambitious.
06:48An autonomous vehicle completing a 230-kilometer course.
06:53Nobody made it in 2004.
06:55In 2005, five teams did.
06:57I've heard that you've participated in a DARPA challenge yourself,
07:02so you know this from the inside.
07:04What's the power of that approach?
07:06And why do so many research institutions still bet on basic research
07:10where you don't even know where it leads?
07:13Thank you very much.
07:14Well, yes, that's true.
07:16I was living in the US at this time and working for a big American company in the tech.
07:22And I participated in some proposals for applying to DARPA.
07:30So, yes, that's very exciting because basically you start from a project
07:36which will have an economical business impact.
07:39And really you start from that and then you really try to build the project.
07:44You try to build the technology.
07:46You try to use the research or science which is around and you move in this direction.
07:51So, there is a lot of energy.
07:54So, this idea is really a very good idea.
07:57That's one of the ways we have to use to basically connect business to our research labs.
08:08This is one pipeline.
08:10This is not the only one.
08:11But this is one of the pipelines and we should really use it.
08:14It's really driven by the market, driven by business.
08:17And I really strongly believe it's something that we should do.
08:21I just want to recall that we trust in that.
08:24We trust really in France in the connection between research, science, technology and business.
08:29This is over the last ten years.
08:31We have done a lot.
08:32We have invested a lot in this direction.
08:34France 2030 is one example.
08:38It's not the only one.
08:40But still we don't do enough.
08:41I mean science, technology, research, innovation, it's the key for future.
08:47We are talking of the future of Europe.
08:49If we are not there, if we do not invest in science, in research, in innovation, in technology,
08:55we will not have the business of tomorrow.
08:57We will not have the factories.
08:59We will not have the jobs.
09:00So, it's not an option.
09:02We have to invest and we are lagging behind in terms of investment.
09:06I'm talking of globally, EU and the different countries, France including.
09:11We don't invest enough.
09:13We have to do more.
09:14This is the future of Europe we are talking about.
09:16And now you want to join forces with that.
09:19Minister Liske, the new French agency is meant to work closely together with Germany's sprint from day one.
09:26And we all know our countries need to partner up for Europe to be competitive.
09:30But let's be honest, collaboration in the EU actually only lasts as long as everyone feels they are getting out
09:37as much as they are putting in.
09:39We've just seen how quickly it can fall apart with the Franco-German fighter jet program that recently collapsed.
09:46How do you ensure that we maintain healthy competition but that going forward everyone joins forces when it comes to
09:54competing against the real rivals?
09:57This is the 10,000 billion euros question.
10:02One, when there's a will, there's a way.
10:05I'm convinced that there is a will on that front.
10:08Because as Philippe said, there's no other way.
10:12If we want to compete, if we want to be what we ought to be, which is yes, the biggest
10:17market in the world, but also one of the superpowers of the world,
10:21we have to invest in tomorrow's ideas, which are, as you said, going to be about quantum computing, which is
10:28going to be about energy storage, which is going to be about the future of the energy revolution, which is
10:34going to be about how defense should be 10, 20, 50 years from now.
10:39We have to do it. And we know that we have the brains, both sides of the Rhine, but more
10:45generally in Europe, because we've had so much brain drain over the years that we know we have them.
10:51When you look at the Nobel Prizes, a lot of them come from Europe, whether they are in Europe or
10:56elsewhere.
10:56So we have to keep them. And to keep them, we just have to keep them, give them the ways
11:02and means to do it.
11:03And I'm convinced, as I said earlier, the culture of cross-border collaboration is already there.
11:11There are German researchers and French researchers working. As Philippe said, he was in the U.S. for years working
11:17with U.S. researchers.
11:18So that culture of collaboration is there. What's usually missing a little bit is what Philippe alluded to, which is
11:26the link between the research and the business case.
11:30So we have to make sure that more and more researchers see themselves as entrepreneurs. Great French word.
11:37And, you know, we did stuff in the law to provide the researchers in France with the ability to keep
11:45on researching, to keep on teaching while being an entrepreneur.
11:49And on the other hand, corporations have to realize more and more that hiring PhDs, hiring researchers is great. And
12:00there's not enough of that in France.
12:01I don't know how it's the case in Germany, but there's a lot of engineers working for great French firms
12:08and they're great engineers.
12:09And I happen to be one of them. And I'm very happy about that. There's not enough PhDs in French
12:15corporations.
12:16And once that link is going to be there, I'm sure we're going to find a way.
12:19I want to point out one important thing from the report.
12:23Minister Baer, the task force recommends an institution where program managers can make decisions independently from ministries.
12:29Is that demand a direct lesson from the learning process with Sprint in Germany?
12:35And what would you do differently if you were building the agency from scratch again?
12:42I think the most important word is the matter of trust.
12:47So as I said at the beginning, that micromanagement is always that you are not trusting the people who are
12:54working on it.
12:55And that's why I would say that's the big headline. And that's why the Sprint has the Sprint Freedom Act.
13:02And for us, the most important thing in German parliament was too that all of the democratic parties see that
13:09way.
13:09Either they are governing at the moment or either they are in the opposition.
13:13And I think that was a very crucial point to do so, give them the trust and allow them, what
13:20I just said, to fail and then start over again or try to take a new turn.
13:25And that was the same when we established our high tech agenda in Germany, where we said we have six
13:31key technologies from AI, from quantum technologies, biotechnology,
13:36microelectronics fusion and climate neutral energy, climate neutral mobility, the Hyperloop, for example.
13:43Those are the examples. And then to say they are important now.
13:48And then we try it out. And if it's not working, it's not working.
13:52And one of the biggest problems we had in the last year is that if someone was not succeeding, we
13:59said, OK, put more money in.
14:01So put more good money into bad money. And that is something we changed to because we said, no, then
14:06we have to say stop now.
14:07And it doesn't matter. At least we tried. And I see it totally positive.
14:13We are having, like my two colleagues pointed out, we have the brightest brains and research worldwide is so much
14:21under pressure.
14:22And so we have it in our constitution, the freedom of research. And that is so precious.
14:29And so everyone can come to Europe. Everyone can come to France, to Germany, and they can be free researchers
14:36here.
14:36And so because of the system worldwide is under pressure because we have not enough democratic countries anymore.
14:43I think actually it's the new horizon of Europe. And I'm very positive about that.
14:48And if we are doing it together, so not even in Europe worldwide, everyone looks, what is Germany doing?
14:55What is France doing? And if they say, oh, my goodness, they are working together.
14:59Some of them admire it. Some of them fear it. And I think both is right.
15:03Yeah, and that is such an important point. And I want you to build on that, Minister Baptiste.
15:08Independence from political indifference is the norm in science, but it's not unbreakable.
15:14And we've seen two striking examples just recently in the US in very different parts of the system.
15:20In research funding, the Trump administration handed decisions to civil servants, putting enormous amounts of research money at risk.
15:28And in the private sector, Washington ordered Anthropic, one of the world's leading AI labs, to cut off all foreign
15:35nationals from its most advanced models.
15:38So those are two very different cases. But the same underlying question.
15:43How much control should governments have over what research is done and funded and who gets access to breakthrough technologies?
15:53Well, I think, well, these are two important questions. Quite different, I think, but two important questions.
16:01First of all, I really think that for basic research, when you try to really understand the world, I mean,
16:08I'm talking of really curiosity-driven research, this has to be handled by researchers, by universities.
16:16And this is really part of their freedom. And this is how it works. This is academic freedom. This is
16:23crucial if you really want to have progress in science, progress in research.
16:29You cannot drive everything. I mean, you have to give a lot of freedom to researchers in the labs, and
16:36they will do things you have no idea of what is going to happen.
16:39And that's very difficult for a politician to say that, because you put a lot of money in a place
16:44where you don't know what's going to happen.
16:46But that's how science is making progress. So we really have to be very strong on that.
16:52And, of course, what's happening in the US, where you see a drastic reduction in terms of freedom, of academic
16:57freedom, is really worrying.
16:59And it's worrying the scientific community. It also gives us some opportunities to welcome great researchers coming from the US
17:06and Europe, and we are happy about it.
17:08But let's not make a mistake. It's not a good news. Of course, it's an opportunity.
17:13And I think that we have programs in Germany, in France, in several countries where we welcome these great researchers.
17:19But at the end, it's bad news because it's bad for research worldwide.
17:23Then there is a second question that you are asking about what happened with AI recently.
17:28I just want to recall a conversation I had with mathematics. I'm coming from mathematics, so I still have friends
17:37in research labs in mathematics, and I was discussing this issue of AI recently.
17:42And what he was saying, he is a mathematician, he is active, and he was saying, I had the opportunity
17:47to work on this model that is not available anymore now because of the US restriction.
17:52And for the first time, for the first time, this had an impact on mathematics. Mathematics right now, up to
18:01now, were perhaps one of the few fields where AI had a very limited impact.
18:05And what he was saying is that this new model, very powerful model, had an impact on the capacity of
18:12designing proof, of checking papers, complex papers, I'm not talking about student exams, I'm talking about research papers.
18:20So this model had an impact on a field where some people a few weeks, a few months ago thought
18:27it was unreachable.
18:29So basically what it means is that it means that having restriction on this tool, it can have an impact
18:37on our own research itself on any other field.
18:41So this is a strong reminder, and it's true for research, it's true also for business, it's true for our
18:47security, cyber security and so on.
18:49And this shows again one thing, is that we cannot rely only on our friends on the other side of
18:57the Atlantic for this question.
18:59We need to have some autonomy in artificial intelligence, like in other technical fields, because this is our sovereignty, this
19:09is our future.
19:10It does not mean that we do not cooperate with our American friends, of course, they are our number one
19:16partners on many fields, but we need to be autonomous.
19:20That's very simple, and that's something that we have to be very assertive about.
19:24Yeah, and thank you to be so clear on that.
19:27So ministers, we are unfortunately out of time, I know you all have tightly packed schedules, but before you go,
19:34the Franco-German Task Force now would like to hand over their final report.
19:40So to do that, join us on stage, BPI France, CEO Nicolas Dufour, representing his German co-lead from Sprint,
19:48Alexander Diehl, and Isabelle Canu, sustainable finance expert and partner at the Green European Tech Fund.
19:54A warm welcome to all of you.
19:59So, where they are.
20:01Yeah, so, there they are, and there's the report.
20:06Here it comes, the official handover.
20:09Good morning.
20:11So we are supposed to give you the report.
20:14Yeah.
20:15I can't hear you so far.
20:16We are supposed to give the report to the ministers.
20:20So, yeah.
20:21Thank you for a month of work.
20:27Here from a hand, yeah, applause for you.
20:30And you can take your seats already.
20:33Okay, come here.
20:34Come here, guys.
20:35So, one photo with all of you.
20:39Does it work for you?
20:49Perfect.
20:51I hope we keep it here.
20:54Yeah, you should keep it and you should read it.
20:59So, please take your seats.
21:01If you go to...
21:04Yeah, so, now that the report has awfully changed hands, let's hear directly from the people behind it.
21:12Nicola, Alexander, tell us what is in it.
21:16So, over to you.
21:18I think you want to start.
21:20We had a group of experts gathered, working together during, what, three months?
21:27Two to three months on an extraordinary idea that came initially from the US and then settled down in Germany
21:36and now in Holland, which is to have in our infrastructure of innovation financing tools that are looking a little
21:44bit like DARPA based on total autonomy of the teams of program managers, researchers and entrepreneurs inside our different organizations.
21:56So, Isabelle was part of the group.
21:59Alex is part of Sprint Day, which is the German, you will describe it, the German structure agency that is
22:08in charge of that program.
22:09Sprint Day was created a couple of years ago.
22:12And the name of the law that was passed for the creation of Sprint Day, it gives you an idea
22:18of the ambition of that endeavor.
22:21The law was called Freiheit, Freiheit.
22:25So, the freedom law, because the idea was to give total freedom to Sprint Day, the team, to push research
22:34and entrepreneurial programs whatsoever.
22:37Autonomous, totally autonomous.
22:39In most of the European organization of innovation financing, you have a bit of verticality with committees and experts and
22:45you have to report.
22:46And you have sometimes to, too many times I would say, ask for permission.
22:52Here, you have a structure which is never asking for permission.
22:56That's the definition of it.
22:58And we propose to the three ministers to do it in France.
23:03That's the conclusion of the report.
23:06Yeah, what's your perspective on that?
23:08Do you want to build on that, Alex?
23:09Yeah, so, first of all, on behalf of the entire team at Sprint, it's 120 people now.
23:17We're actually very proud to not only have been part of this work group and announce this here and hand
23:25it over, not as a diplomatic nicety, but actually we're ready to execute.
23:31We're ready to start doing challenges together, to start doing investments together, be it on the next chapter of Frontier
23:41AI or Advanced Semiconductor Design or Quantum Sensing or whatnot.
23:46So, we think that this kind of initiative or this is what Europe needs right now, as you've heard from
23:54the ministers before, we don't lack the brains in Europe.
23:58We have still excellent research, very excellent research, especially in aggregate, but we haven't built the muscle, the venture muscle
24:08to really go and foster deep tech innovation, spin out more teams that are excellent.
24:14So, from the report, I think the main takeaway from the learnings, we had people also from DARPA and many
24:26experts involved in this.
24:28The main takeaway is to really enable people with autonomy to make ambitious bets and to be able to pivot
24:42and allow them to pivot and have people that are really intrinsically motivated.
24:46And this is what Europe needs right now. And I would say, let's create good problems together. Let's create good
24:54challenges together.
24:56And we talked about the importance of independence for Sprint. So, maybe you can give us a short glimpse from
25:05the inside. Why is it so important for you?
25:09So, for a start, a lot of the talent that we have, they either come straight out of school or
25:16universities, and they, you know, so we're trying to build a model so they don't just all go to McKinsey
25:25or, you know.
25:26So, for two to three years, they get the chance to really play fast in investment, in working with teams.
25:35And then the investment committee are senior managers. They have also only short-term three- to five-year contracts.
25:43And a lot of them are post or mid-career. And they bring a lot of experience.
25:47Now, some of them, they need conditions, part-time or whatever, that don't fit a normal government research organization framework.
25:57So, we have the flexibility to address that. And what's more important than that, even being able to pivot.
26:05So, we did a de-droning challenge last summer. First round didn't succeed. We shut it down. We're going to
26:11reissue it.
26:12No harm done. Or we need a new kind of funding instrument.
26:17So, we just, I don't, I'm not even sure whether I'm allowed to announce this, but like we're doing grants
26:22as well.
26:22And now we're figuring out something that maybe we can do grants so that there's also, if this thing really
26:27takes off,
26:28there's some kind of payback for, you know, for the taxpayer.
26:33And so, you know, we are innovating the schemes as well and we don't have to ask for permission to
26:41do that within the frame of the law.
26:43I hope for my colleagues that they all listen very carefully to that.
26:48Thank you, Nicola and Alex, for that introduction and for your work.
26:52Throughout the process, you had support from a number of experts and we want to hear from one of them
26:58now.
26:59Isabel, what's your perspective on the outcome?
27:03That the outcome is great and I'm very honored to give you four success factors that we see as a
27:10task force.
27:10So, the first one was to be able to overcome national particular interest and to see it in a broader
27:18European way.
27:19So, Sprint and Germany decided at that time to not to select teams according to their passport or to their
27:27location, but to their excellence.
27:28And I think this is game changing as France is doing the same, not only for France and for Germany,
27:34but for Europe.
27:35Because if the two countries do this, then we will make a big step forward.
27:40The second thing is another type of courage is really to rethink the way the state finances innovation.
27:49Really to say, okay, from bottom up, what do we really need?
27:53Where are the holes?
27:55And out of this, on the white piece of paper, thinking new.
28:00And that was very difficult, but I think to have this courage is essential.
28:07The third aspect is ambition.
28:09It is really important to see what is breakthrough innovation, yeah?
28:14And that's basically something where the markets fail because it's too risky, too big, too early or too crazy.
28:23And that's the way you really have to think if you want to disrupt the way we work and the
28:29way we live.
28:31And the fourth one that has already been mentioned is really this question about independence and autonomy.
28:37That's a tricky one because it's not the normal way of financing from a state point of view.
28:44But, of course, it is absolutely necessary.
28:48Otherwise, you are under influence of short-term decision or political issues and critics.
28:57So, you have to be able to stand even you get a lot of critic.
29:03And that's important for the entity itself, but also for the managing director.
29:09And, of course, it goes along with a lot of responsibility and accountability, which means a very good governance.
29:17So, I hope that we have set up what were the success factors for Germany.
29:23I wish you a lot of luck doing this in France.
29:26It's important for France, for Germany, for Europe and for all of us.
29:30Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for the conversation.
29:33It's your applause.
29:36Now, the only thing left to say is good luck, bonne chance und viel Erfolg.
29:42That's your applause. Thank you.
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