00:07Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:14Our topic today is a rare one, but a very important one, India unlocks an infinite loop
00:24of nuclear energy. For this it is our pleasure to welcome Dr. Sundesh Vasudeva.
00:35It is not possible to describe him in just a couple of sentences.
00:48Dr. Sundesh Vasudeva is a strategic analyst and a defense technologist with extensive experience
00:59in national security, military modernization and emerging warfare technologies.
01:05He worked with very known defense technologists like Professor T. Urbanski and Dr. Manfred Held
01:15and many other technologists overseas. After a tenure of 43 years in DRDO, Defense Research
01:25and Development Organization, he retired as Chief Controller of Strategic Systems.
01:31There are many other accomplishments of his. Very recently, the prototype fast-breeder reactor
01:44at Kalpakam, it achieved first criticality. I will not speak any more on these technical terms,
01:56but it is my pleasure to call Dr. Vasudeva to please carry on.
02:07Okay. So, good evening to you. See, April 6 was the red letter day in the history of India.
02:20India, we obtained the first criticality for the reactor. Now, what is the first criticality? It means that the
02:31reactor has achieved a self-sustaining nuclear chain reaction for the very first time. It is historic
02:38because it marks India's entry into Advanced Builder Reactor Club. A milestone only a handful of the nations have achieved.
02:46So, it is very remarkable for India to enter into this club.
02:58Yes, yes. Yes, yes. In fact, I think there are a number of queries which our viewers will find very
03:08interesting. Why is this achievement being called a super achievement in India's energy future?
03:18It is a super achievement because of reason. We have not taken technology from abroad. It is a totally indigenous
03:27technology. And to master such a technology is a very, very difficult task. Only the prototype has been started, which
03:37will take the shape of a plant later on to generate the electricity. So, and another
03:43factor in our cap is that we are going to utilize thorium. It is a very difficult technology. India has
03:52got the largest reserves of thorium. And at present, whatever plant we are running, they are uranium based. So, this
04:02thorium will make us independent from the other country. We will not import any uranium anymore. And we will run
04:10our own plant in the future.
04:11To get the clean energy. To get the clean energy. Reducing the carbon footprint, which is the, which is the,
04:18to which we are committed.
04:21So, yeah. So, yeah. How does this, you know, prototype for the reactor manage to produce more fuel than it
04:32consumes? Yes, that's right. You see, this is a very interesting thing that in the, our reactors, which are already
04:42working, they are the, the heavy water reactors, the pressurized
04:47heavy water reactors. So, there you are using uranium where the fuel is being eaten away. And we are producing
04:56very, very less fuel. That is the plutonium is the outcome. That is the, by chance. And the, in the
05:04fast period reactor, you, you produce more fuel than you consume.
05:12So, that, that is the difference between the two reactors. And could you elaborate a little bit more on thorium?
05:19Where is it exactly found? I, one has heard that it's in the sand?
05:26In the sand. Yes, yes, yes. In the sand, it is found. And we have got a very large reserve
05:32of thorium. And this reserve, once we standardize this technology, it will be used, you see, for the, our generation
05:41of the electricity. So, this is a, really a, we, we have got one third of the reserve in India.
05:50So, we are, we have got one third of the reserve, one third of the world reserve.
05:52One third of the total reserve in India. One third of the tourism. This is very, very correct, and a,
06:02we have got one third of the world reserve. See, large, large amount of the thorium. We have got.
06:09I can only say it's God's gift to Bharat. Because we, with our size and population, you know, providing energy
06:26to everyone was a very challenging task.
06:31Yes, yes, definitely. And anyway, and how does the thorium get converted to plutonium?
06:43Yeah. No, thorium is not getting converted to this thing, plutonium. I'll just tell you, let me first tell you
06:53about our three stages of the program which India has got.
06:59You see, in this stage one, which I was telling about the heavy water reactors, we are using the uranium
07:08-238.
07:10Uranium, okay. Yes. From that we are getting the plutonium-239. Okay. So that is a, I will say, by
07:20-product or it is coming out of that.
07:22And in this stage two, we are going to use that plutonium for the generation of the uranium-233.
07:32So that we have all unlocked that stage. After generation of the power by those reactors, we, in the first
07:41period of the reactor, we will be using this uranium, the plutonium-239 to generate 233, which will be, which
07:53will be used for the stage three.
07:57That, that is, so we have unlocked the stage two. That, that is the achievement.
08:03So now, yeah, experiments are going on, conditions are being standardized, so that all the, the control of the neutrons
08:16are there.
08:16Now, when we see critical, in the criticality, you see, number of neutrons produced, which hit, and the number of
08:27neutrons which are decaying, is one.
08:29The, it's called K-factor, is one. In a nuclear reaction, for example, like the nuclear weapon, the neutrons generated
08:39are more.
08:40It's multiplying, like an avalanche, and you get a lot of energy. So, the critical thing is, we have to
08:47control the energy.
08:49So, the, it is K-factor is one. Neutrons, which are produced, neutrons, which are decaying. The number is equal.
08:58So, that's the criticality in this.
09:00Yes. All I can say is great. Great. Yes. And now, how do you respond to concerns that beta reactors
09:12can produce weapon-grade plutonium?
09:15Yes. It, it produces plutonium also. You see, plutonium is being produced in this. So, that plutonium will be used
09:30to convert thorium-232 into the uranium-233. That's, that's the thing.
09:41How much electricity will be the, you know, fast breeder reactor, will this contribute to India's natural grid?
09:51Yes. Yeah. At present, this is a, this is only experimental reactor. So, I think, you see, it will, once
10:00it starts, we will, we will start making the reactors,
10:04and it will meet the, almost total demand. But we are, we are already generating electricity in our, the 21
10:14operating reactors, about 7550 megawatt is being generated.
10:22So, this will be really a very good technology, but it will take time. Approximately, how long do you think
10:30it will take?
10:32We can't say, because now this is experimental reactor, which has, which has to.
10:37So, it will take a matter of a couple of years?
10:39Couple of years. Couple of years. That's right.
10:43Okay. Once we standardize this technology in the experimental reactor, then we will start making the advanced reactors.
10:52And this will reach people in cities and villages everywhere. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It will be, it
11:00will be going to the grid.
11:04National grid. National grid. So, it will, it will go there.
11:07No, we, we have often heard, uh, Prime Minister Narendra Modi say,
11:14Jal Bidjali, Har Shachsko Pozhiniche Yeh.
11:20Well, well, well, we will be, we will be self-sufficient in this field.
11:27And, I mean, we will, and also, this is going to make us completely independent in energy.
11:33Yes. We are, we, you see, at present we are dependent on, uh, uranium-38, which we are importing.
11:42So, with time that import will go, we will become independent. We will not depend on any country.
11:47Okay. And, uh, uh, Dr. Vasudeva, we, we, we, it's been reported that there will be enough for 60,000
11:58years?
11:59Yes, that's right. It will be, it will be, that is what, what is estimated.
12:06So, because we have got, uh, so, so much results in India.
12:11So, you see, our, uh, the vision now of Dr. Bhava for this, uh, three-stage program is really, is
12:20taking shape.
12:21No doubt. It takes a lot of time. Yes. Yeah.
12:24And our present team is very competent to handle all these things.
12:31No, no, it's a, it, it, it, all this is also a tribute, a tribute to the Indian mind and
12:39the Indian spirit of.
12:41Yes, yes. Of, you know, of, and we, we achieve all this.
12:47It, it, it, at times, it, it, you know, it's very disturbing to, to come to know that a number
12:55of our scientists, uh, were disappeared.
12:59They were, they were, they were killed.
13:03That's right. That's right. But I can tell you, yeah, I can tell you, I, uh, interact with the youngsters
13:10and the, our, uh, technologist.
13:14We have got world-class technologist with us and we can do wonders if they are given freedom.
13:21When I say freedom means the resources are provided and they can, they can do wonders, I can tell you,
13:28in, in the, in any field.
13:30Because they, they, our, uh, children which are being produced with the IITs, I can tell you they are, they
13:37are really, uh, uh, the, uh, genius guys.
13:43And, uh, now there is a trend in, uh, that they want to remain here rather than going abroad.
13:49So, it's very good for the country that, uh, talent is not, we are not losing the talent.
13:55Mm, mm, mm, very, that's very important. That's very important.
13:59Yeah.
13:59We are a country who is, you know, the, the term, phrase, brain drain.
14:05Brain drain. So, that, that is a...
14:07We really suffered, uh, you know, great loss of, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:13Of wind, uh, you know, good, good minds, good, um, yeah, yeah.
14:19What about us, safety concerns?
14:23Yes.
14:24So, you see, we are, uh, in this, uh, plant, I mean, the, this, uh, fruitarized plant, we are standardizing
14:33all the parameters.
14:34Actually, you see, it is, it is a, uh, reaction which has to be controlled.
14:39If it goes out of control, the, then there will be explosion.
14:44So, uh, at every stage, the safety is monitored.
14:49You have to, you cannot allow the, uh, reaction to go out of control.
14:55This is what the nuclear reactions, this is the most important, uh, factor.
15:00Yes, no doubt, uh, uh, Dr. Vasudeva.
15:03And what, uh, uh, great concern is that, you know, as it is, uh, ever since, uh, this operation Sindur,
15:11demonstrated our great, uh, progress in.
15:18Yes.
15:19Yes.
15:20In Atma Nirbharata or self-reliance.
15:23Which, uh, and we, we, we produced very sophisticated armament system ourselves.
15:30Ourselves.
15:32Now.
15:33Yes.
15:34We, and that puts us in a, uh, I'll be very plain.
15:39There's, powers which are very jealous.
15:42Very jealous.
15:43Of putting it very plain.
15:44Yes.
15:45Very right.
15:46And, um, uh, they, they, we have to be very, very careful about the security, uh, of, uh,
15:54all these plants, you know, that they cannot get, um, they cannot get targeted by, they
16:01won't be any threat of, uh, we, that's one aspect we have to, uh, be very, very, um, you
16:09know, concerned about and what we have to do a lot about.
16:14Yes.
16:15Uh, how does India ensure a clear separation between the civilian nuclear energy and military
16:22applications?
16:24Yes.
16:25We, we have, we are very clear right from the beginning that we, uh, we have separate, uh,
16:32we have separated them.
16:33The facilities which are being used for generation of distinct plutonium are separate from what
16:39we are producing for the, this thing.
16:42For example, this prototype breeder reactor, which also produces the plutonium.
16:47So, the, uh, we are in touch with the IAE, so that they can, uh, uh, they, they can come
16:55and visit this, that this is being used for the, uh, generation of the electricity, it will
17:01be used.
17:01So that, that, that's a very clear, there is clear separation between civilian and the military.
17:08IAE, you are referring to Indian atomic energy?
17:12No, international atomic energy.
17:14International traffic, sorry.
17:15International atomic energy.
17:17International atomic energy.
17:18International atomic energy, uh, the, you see.
17:19Commission or whatever.
17:21Yeah.
17:21But, but we are not signatory to, uh, this, uh, we, we are, you see, uh, the non-profilation
17:28treaty.
17:29Yes, yes, yes.
17:30We take them, we take them into confidence.
17:34As and when required.
17:36No, no.
17:36We have, uh, we, we have so far, by God's grace, we've had a very good recall of, uh,
17:43um, the, you know, uh, the safety of our, whatever nuclear assets that we have.
17:50Yeah.
17:52Yeah.
17:52They, they have been in, uh, we have, we, we have only, it's our miss, miss, miss fortune,
18:00or whatever.
18:01That we have a neighbor, Pakistan.
18:04Yeah.
18:05And nuclear assets are in, uh, you, you don't know in whose hands they can, they are or where
18:10they can reach.
18:12Yes, yes, yes, yes.
18:13Yes.
18:13Very dangerous situation.
18:15And-
18:16Especially for us, you see.
18:17We have to be very careful. During those 88 hours of Operation Sindhuur, some of our warheads actually went and
18:33they hit these locations where there was some nuclear material stored.
18:43I am being very guarded in my terminology.
18:53It's a pity. Way back when we had an exercise brass tacks, Pakistan army got very jittery.
19:09India has launched this exercise. It is not an exercise, it is an operation to target our nuclear weapons.
19:24And just that led to a situation of Indian army mobilizing for war, for a war which fortunately did not
19:37actually happen.
19:39Yes, yes, yes.
19:44How do you reassure the public that this fast feeder reactor is for clean energy and not weapons?
19:55Because there is going to be, I pointedly asked this question because we have all kinds of elements in our
20:06political opposition or something who will be waiting to just pounce on us.
20:18You see, in this we are going to make the, as I told you, the U-33, the uranium-33,
20:27which is normally not used for the weapons.
20:32Why it is not used. Why it is not used? Because if I have to use it for weapons, then
20:37the size of the device will be larger in size.
20:42So it is not used. Even, even 235 which was used earlier, 235 is also not used. It is a
20:51plutonium which is being used by most of the countries.
20:56So, it cannot be used for the weapons. So, it cannot be used for the weapon and it will be
20:59only used for the aircraft.
21:02Thank you for clarifying that. But this is something, you know, in politics, the government will have to ensure that
21:11Yes.
21:19Nothing is going to happen. I told you the reason that it cannot be used for that purpose.
21:26Absolutely. But this is something which will probably need to be, you know, constantly conveyed to the public.
21:37Yes.
21:40What about climate? Is this going to affect climate?
21:45No, no, no, no, no. That is why I said clean energy. Nothing, nothing is going to happen to climate.
21:51Not at all.
21:52And you know, we already are operating the plants. So far, there is no such incidence of any contamination.
22:01We have good experience of operating the plants. 21 plants. No doubt. No doubt. Whatever one has studied and researched
22:12in this aspect, we have a good record. We have a good record.
22:18Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:22Dr.till mean where does this place us? you know, where to the end, what's India is now ranking?
22:30The ranking is, you see, we have joined the fast-bluided club.
22:36So far, Russia, Japan…
22:38The club with very few members?
22:42Few members.
22:43Russia, Japan and China, these are the countries.
22:46You see, they are utilizing this technology.
22:53But so far, the plant has not come.
22:55Finally, the aim is to get a thorium plant, which can produce electricity.
23:03Do you think, you know, we have seen that in this war which is going on in the Persian Gulf,
23:16the US, or rather Mr. Trump, Mr. Donald J. Trump, his aim, his constant aim expressed and repeated,
23:29that they have got nuclear material, they have got nuclear material.
23:39Now, one issue is that even if they have it, so what?
23:45The US was the country which was the first to use.
23:49Use nuclear weapons.
23:50Use nuclear weapons.
23:50You see…
23:52In Hiroshima and other countries.
23:53Right.
23:54Why they are afraid is that it can create problems for the neighboring countries.
24:00You never know.
24:02They…
24:03But they don't have the plutonium.
24:07Some…
24:07Some work is required to be done where they will reach.
24:10But they can…
24:11They can make it.
24:13They have got everything.
24:14I can tell you.
24:14No.
24:15They…
24:15That means they will be…
24:17They will be after us to…
24:18To get thorium from us?
24:20No.
24:21They have got plutonium with them.
24:24They have already got…
24:24They have got enough…
24:25Plutonium to…
24:26But plutonium not that percentage.
24:29They have to…
24:30They have to still…
24:31You see…
24:32Refine it.
24:33And…
24:33Indeed this thing.
24:35They don't have it.
24:37So…
24:38So…
24:38Other…
24:39And other…
24:39Other things I know it.
24:41They have got the device ready.
24:43Everything is ready.
24:44Only that the ball is not fully ready.
24:48So that is why Trump is…
24:49He wants to take that out.
24:51That uranium which is available with them.
24:54So that they can't…
24:55Which he claims is…
24:56Which he claims Iran is holding.
24:58Yes.
25:00So…
25:00It is a…
25:00It is a…
25:01I will say…
25:03The…
25:03It is a job of about…
25:05Two to three weeks…
25:07For them…
25:08To go to the next stage of making the…
25:10So…
25:10That is the fear what…
25:12What Trump has got.
25:13So far…
25:14So far…
25:15At least…
25:15I think Iran has made it very clear…
25:17That don't you try any…
25:18Don't try any stunts with us…
25:20Because…
25:21You will get…
25:21And they…
25:22The…
25:23The US has lost…
25:25A fairly large amount of…
25:28Ships and aircraft…
25:29And drones…
25:31In…
25:31In the…
25:31Last few months…
25:33And maybe…
25:33We will not like to digress…
25:35We…
25:35There is something…
25:37A great achievement of India…
25:38That we are talking about…
25:40Yeah…
25:41If you sum it up in one line…
25:44So…
25:45Why should every Indian…
25:46Be proud of…
25:47This…
25:48Past video reactor…
25:49You see…
25:50If I have to sum it…
25:52Because it proves that…
25:53India can power its future…
25:55With its own resources…
25:57And…
25:58Its own science…
25:59And…
26:00Own determination…
26:01That is…
26:02That is the one line…
26:02I will sum up…
26:04That means…
26:04Our own determination…
26:06We didn't depend on…
26:07Any…
26:08The…
26:09Technology…
26:09From abroad…
26:10Totally indigenous…
26:12And…
26:12Totally indigenous…
26:14Material…
26:14Indigenous technology…
26:16And indigenous material…
26:18So…
26:18We don't…
26:19We are not going to…
26:20Depend on anybody…
26:21Else…
26:22From other countries…
26:23Or anything…
26:24I will say…
26:25Electricity…
26:26Such energy…
26:27That it's not only…
26:28The…
26:29Light bubbles…
26:30In…
26:30In…
26:30In houses…
26:31Or…
26:32Building…
26:33It's…
26:34There's so much…
26:35That is powered by it…
26:36And now…
26:37We can…
26:38We…
26:38We can come to a stage of…
26:41You know…
26:42Doing away with…
26:44Petrol…
26:45Diesel…
26:46And have…
26:47Yeah…
26:47Enough energy…
26:49Nuclear energy…
26:49To…
26:50To use…
26:50For…
26:53Vehicles…
26:54Definitely…
26:54That day will also come…
26:59So…
27:00Dr. Vasudevab…
27:02Thank you very much…
27:05So…
27:05Yeah…
27:06Yeah…
27:06Thank you very much…
27:07So…
27:07This is my…
27:08First interaction with you…
27:09I think we will have…
27:10More interaction of the…
27:13The…
27:14The…
27:14Defence Technology subjects…
27:16Which is…
27:17Which is…
27:18My domain rather…
27:19So…
27:19No…
27:20No…
27:20I…
27:20I look forward…
27:21I look forward…
27:23And…
27:25Thank you very much…
27:26Very…
27:27You know…
27:27Lot of…
27:28Information…
27:29Which you…
27:30A lot of information…
27:31And…
27:32Clarifications…
27:33Which you have given…
27:34Thank you once again…
27:36And all the…
27:36Thank you very much…
27:38Thank you…
27:39Okay…
27:40Thank you very much…
27:40Thank you…
27:40I…
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