00:07Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:15Our topic today is the need to reset pay and status of India's defence forces.
00:25It is a much debated, much discussed subject for which we have the pleasure of inviting Lieutenant-General Kapil Agarwal,
00:41retired.
00:44He was commissioned into the Electronics and Mechanical Engineering Co.
00:51and rose to be the Director General of the SAM.
00:56An Electronics Engineer from Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur.
01:02He is a Fellow of the Institution of Electronics, Telecommunications Engineering.
01:10He is also an advisor to the United Public Service Commission.
01:14But most relevantly for us is that he was chosen to chair the army pay sale and worked under, God
01:33bless his soul,
01:33former Defence Minister, Manavar Alikar, who I think the entire armed forces will never forget for implementing the one rank,
01:45one pension.
01:52Jinnagarwal, I have a few questions but I think basically you give your brief comment and otherwise I can start
02:04with a question straight away.
02:08Thank you, sir.
02:09Thank you, sir.
02:11Thank you, sir.
02:11Good afternoon to you.
02:12And it's a great pleasure interacting with you on this platform of South Asia Monitor.
02:19And you've chosen a very good topic for discussion in this season of the 8th Central Pay Commission,
02:29when the minds are all engrossed with pay and allowance matters.
02:35Now, I will like to point out that although the pay matters are, you know, sometimes they get very emotionally
02:47surcharged,
02:48especially amongst the 4G fraternity.
02:51However, they are much misunderstood.
02:57So my endeavour today would be to simplify things, declutter them and suggest suitable solutions.
03:16I think we'll start that the very first question is that the degradation of status of the service,
03:26you know, for instance, a joint secretary in the civil services is the rank which is attained in 14 years.
03:37And the rank in the armed forces which is equated to it, major general and equivalent, is attained after over
03:4530 years.
03:47I think it's, and not only that, it's the army and other service officers have become a colonel in, you
03:58know,
03:59I mean, it's proportionately, this is just an example, but it affects, I think, all ranks of the army.
04:10Would you please elaborate?
04:12Sir?
04:13Yes, sir.
04:14Sir, what you have said about the status equations, I think this is the single biggest issue which disturbs the
04:23peace of mind of the serving officers as well as the retired fraternity.
04:30Now, before I comment on the issue, I'll bring out that there could be, what could be the determinants of
04:38status amongst the various services.
04:42First is the warrant of precedents 1979, which has got about 26 serials there, and which places a major general
04:56and joint secretary in the same serial, that is Serial 26.
05:00Now, officially, this warrant of precedents is meant only for ceremonial purposes, and not for determining seniority amongst the government
05:12services.
05:12That is the deterioration position.
05:14But de facto, we all are aware that what is happening.
05:20The second determinant is the grade pay, which was started by the sixth pay commission, and which was termed as
05:33level by the seventh CPC.
05:35So, this grade pay or level is another determinant of inter, say, seniority or inter, say, status.
05:43The third is the length of service, which you just spoke of, you know, that a major general becomes a
05:48major general in 30 years of service, while a joint secretary may become a joint secretary in 80 years of
05:52service.
05:53So, length of service, but the question is whether the length of service of a commissioned officer can be equated
06:03to the length of service to a group A, organized group A officer or an all India service officer.
06:10Now, this is a contentious issue.
06:12So, I will leave it at that.
06:16The last major determinant of seniority is the span of responsibility.
06:26Now, what is the span of responsibility of various ranks and appointments is again a subjective issue.
06:33So, again, you know, we can't really start arguing and debating on this.
06:39But the perception that there has been a degradation of status is all prevalent in 4G fraternity and not without
06:49reason.
06:52I will illustrate this with an episode in brief, which will bring out what is the malaise affecting the three
07:04services.
07:06Many of you may be aware and many of your viewers may also be aware in 2016, a letter was
07:14taken out by a civilian office saying, you know, giving the equivalence, status equivalence between AFHQ Carter service and the
07:29defense services officers.
07:30And which said that a joint director is equivalent to a brigadier.
07:37Now, when this letter was promulgated in October 2016, there was a large hue and cry amongst all the three
07:44services.
07:44And because of which the then Raksha Mantri constituted a committee to examine the issue, a three member committee.
07:55So, I was representing the three services in that committee.
08:00And when I did my little bit of research work, I found that AFHQ Carter is actually meant to be
08:08a support service to the defense officers in army headquarters.
08:13Just like IFS has got a support service, IFS B, the other, you know, the All India Services and Organized
08:23Group A Services have got a central secretariat service as a support Carter.
08:27And I found there is no equivalence between the parent Carter and the support Carter anywhere.
08:36So, this was quite hilarious that somebody is trying to draw equivalence between the defense services officers and AFHQ Carter,
08:45which is actually a Group B service.
08:49So, and further I found that the body which is actually tasked with determining any functional equivalence is the PPOC.
09:00PPOC is the principal personal officers committee of the three services where AG and AG equivalent officers of the three
09:07services are there.
09:10It is their charter.
09:11And now what happens is that we in the defense forces are all focused on operational matters or combat readiness.
09:22And rightly so.
09:24Pay matters and status matters are not really the focus area.
09:28Again, rightly so.
09:29But what happens is that somebody else takes advantage of this and tries and draws equations when they do not
09:36even have the mandate to draw any equation.
09:39It was the mandate of PPOC.
09:40So, when I brought out these things in front of the committee, immediately it was agreed that there is no
09:47need to draw equivalences.
09:48And the letter which was issued by that civilian office was withdrawn and the matter rested there.
09:57So, this is just an illustration of how the problems arise.
10:05Now, one more thing, you know, to the status equivalences, drawing status equivalences between the organized Group A services, All
10:12India services and defense forces is a very complicated issue.
10:14That is why the Prime Minister in 2008 ordered a constitution of a high-powered committee to determine the status
10:22equivalence.
10:23But that committee has never been constituted till date.
10:26Now, coming to, in very brief, my suggested solution to the whole imbroglio of status equation.
10:33In fact, we had approval of the Chiefs of Staff Committee submitted this as a proposal to the 7th CPC
10:45and the 7th CPC did not comment on it at all.
10:48Now, the proposal was very simple.
10:50They link the grade pay from ranks and link it to the length of service.
10:56Very simple solution.
10:58Just like in civil pay metrics, you have the grade pay progression at 4 years of service, 9 years of
11:05service, 13 years of service.
11:07Similarly, in army, in 4 years, let's say, an officer gets to the grade pay of 6,600 rupees.
11:15In 9 years, he gets to a grade pay of 7,600 rupees.
11:19In 13 years, which is a left-in-curl, he gets to a grade pay of 8,700 rupees.
11:25It is pertinent to note that right now, left-in-curl is in grade pay of 8,000.
11:29And similarly, at 20 years, you can get a grade pay of SAG, which is a grade pay of 10
11:36,000.
11:37The very simple and neat solution, which would sort out all the perceived problems of status and meet the aspirations
11:48of the defectors.
11:51It was not considered.
11:53It was not considered.
11:55It was not at all commented in the 7th CPC report.
11:59And I'll tell you the reason for it.
12:01Actually, again, this is a mistake which the services headquarters have been committing pay commission after pay commission.
12:08These issues are actually sorted out between the two pay commissions.
12:14I'll give you examples of the railway board, the organized group A services, the IRS and others, you know, upgrading
12:25their status and the grade pays between the pay commissions.
12:28Pay commissions does not, you know, usually consider these matters.
12:32They are very reluctant to disturb any status parity.
12:37They are only focused on what should be the multiplication factor, what should be the new pay scale.
12:42They will rationalize some allowances and then submit the report.
12:45So actually, these matters are to be taken between the pay commission in the 10 years intervening years.
12:53And this is where these services headquarters have been faulting because we wind up the pay commission.
13:02And then we wake up only when the pay commission is constituted and make our submissions to the pay commission.
13:09And the pay commission will not touch these issues unless the government of India otherwise has already decided in its
13:16favor.
13:20Now, there is one action which was taken just after independence.
13:29A very, you know, I think it was, without it mindlessly, the badges of rank won by the army were
13:40made applicable to the police services.
13:44And here again become, you know, there is a great, the amount of difference of time that the police officers
13:57use a particular rank in half the time that, you know, the army, army, navy, force officers attained that.
14:09Here again, the rank badges of the police were never the same as those of the army.
14:22The navies got stripes, the air force had stripes.
14:26The star and the ashoka lion were never the same.
14:37And I don't think anything has been done to mitigate this or to, you know, resolve the situation.
14:50Sir, I think the question is very valid.
14:54It creates a lot of confusion.
14:57But the reality is that these rank badges have been worn by the police since 1950.
15:06When they changed the crown to an Ashoka and chose that five-pointed star, silver star and the Ashoka and
15:19the senior ranks, they again chose the crossed sword and the baton in their rank appellies.
15:26Now, my submission is that instead of, you know, trying to change something which we have little control, let us
15:38do something which is within our domain or which we can do with, you know, appropriate approval at the appropriate
15:53level of government.
15:56And what I can suggest is, you know, like rank of brigadier right now, he wears the Ashoka with three
16:04stars.
16:05We can change the, this thing, Ashoka and a star, which is actually right now a major general is wearing.
16:14And a major general can be changed to an Ashoka and two stars without conflicting with any other army rank.
16:22So, my solution is always, you know, avoid conflict and, you know, these kind of confrontations.
16:37And instead, find your own solutions.
16:43Let us sing our own song.
16:45Let us dance our own dance.
16:48Actually, late former chief, former army chief general Arun Vaidya, he went in for a very major change of the
16:59color of the peak cap and, you know, certain other aspects of uniform to try to maintain the sort of
17:10uniqueness of the, you know, the distinctive aspects of people.
17:16But then it hasn't really worked because this is something which has to be resolved at a high level.
17:24And, you know, look at the word Havaldar.
17:37It has been made a joke.
17:38In every, in every movie, Constable is referred to as a Havaldar by a person who is acting as a
17:47police officer.
17:48And anyway, we won't go into it because it's a, now, another major question.
17:54Why not the NFU?
17:57Why are only the armed, the defense forces, Army, Navy, Navy, Navy force officers denied the NFU?
18:10Right, sir.
18:11I think another major issue which is tormenting the minds of the 4G fraternity.
18:17And we've been chasing this grant of non-functional financial upgrade, NFU, in short NFU, right since 2008, without success.
18:30I, in fact, call it a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a marriage called NFU.
18:36It's a marriage.
18:38Okay.
18:39Now, you know, the issue was taken up strongly with the 7th CPC also, strongly recommended by the Chiefs of
18:50Staff Committee.
18:51And the 7th CPC, the chairman said in his report that he recommended grant of NFU to defense forces.
19:02The only member of the 7th CPC, Mr. Vivek Ray, he has written in his report, which is there in
19:10the 7th CPC report, that if anybody deserved NFU, it was the defense forces officers first.
19:19However, he, he disagreed with the concept and said that NFU should be discontinued for all.
19:28But if it has to be given, it should have been, sorry, defense officers first.
19:34Now, with this background again, nothing happened and, and the NFU was not granted by the government.
19:43Now, before I, I comment further on the, on the subject, I wish to clarify the concept of NFU, which
19:53is not understood well by an overwhelming majority of the officers.
19:58Now, NFU is meant to compensate for slower promotions.
20:03And defense forces have the slowest promotions, we know that.
20:06NFU is not meant to compensate for non-empanelment.
20:13So if a left colonel become, doesn't become a colonel or colonel doesn't become a brigadier, he does not get
20:18impaneled, then he will not get NFU.
20:22The implementation rules of the NFU, which are there in open domain for the civilians who are granted NFU, it
20:34says it is only a financial upgrade.
20:37And it will be given only to those officers who are holding the present rank or appointment in substantive rank.
20:46That means a left colonel can get an NFU upgrade to a colonel, but he cannot get an NFU upgrade
20:54to a brigadier or a major general, unless he gets promoted to the next rank, substantive rank of colonel.
21:01Similarly, a colonel can get an NFU for brigadier, but he will not get NFU for the rank of major
21:08general, unless he becomes a brigadier, gets impaneled for the rank of brigadier.
21:12This is not understood by most people.
21:16And so they think that NFU is a panacea for all status problems.
21:21It is not.
21:23If tomorrow, let us say, hypothetically, NFU is granted by the government to defense forces officers,
21:29then a lieutenant colonel will get maximum upgrade of 700 rupees.
21:38A colonel will get a maximum upgrade of 200 rupees and a brigadier will get a maximum upgrade of 1100
21:46rupees.
21:47It does not solve the status problem.
21:52Okay, so this is something which the officers have to understand.
21:56While we deserve NFU, NFU does not solve our problem.
22:00The problem can again be solved.
22:03I revert back to my solution, which I already gave you in the earlier question.
22:08Delink grade pay from ranks, link it to the length of service.
22:13And this proposal is to be progressed with the government, not with the pay commission.
22:19Pay commission again will leave it aside.
22:22It will not comment on it.
22:23It is to be progressed with the government.
22:25It should have been progressed over the last 10 years.
22:29I don't think it was, to the best of knowledge, I don't think it was done.
22:34And now, when the pay commission is constituted, again this subject has become very hot.
22:40And we expect the pay commission to resolve it.
22:44I bet we will again be disappointed.
22:51Now, in a democracy, the defense services must be under civilian rule and not be dictated
23:02by the bureaucracy, which is what is happening.
23:12That's very right, sir.
23:14In a democracy, it is supposed to be civilian control, which does not mean bureaucratic control.
23:21That is perfectly fine.
23:24But, you know, the way things are in reality are different.
23:31And the reasons we know are pretty well known.
23:35And one is, of course, the proximity of the bureaucracy to the political masters.
23:44The envy which they have towards the defense forces.
23:51And the public trust we enjoy, the defense forces are popular with the citizenry of India.
23:59And this is a factor of envy for the civilian bureaucracy.
24:07But, having said this, I will also like to, whatever little I know, similar is the situation in most western
24:18democracies also.
24:19The armed forces are not having that kind of cloud.
24:24And, as far as the envy factor is concerned, I can tell you, you know, there was this military service
24:32pay, which was a success story of the sixth pay commission when it was first granted.
24:40This is a source of great envy to the civilians.
24:47I was asked by the chairman seven CPC.
24:50I was asked by him, you have this military service pay, why shouldn't it be give to civilians?
24:59I said, fine sir, I have no objection.
25:02Please give it in whatever form, call it civilian service pay.
25:04But, we are talking of our own status issues, our own allowances issues, which must be resolved.
25:11We are not linking it with other civilian services.
25:15And of the terms and the conditions that we serve in, the physical conditions that we serve in.
25:23Yes, and I tell you, the same thing was indirectly asked to me by the principal secretary in the prime
25:31minister's office.
25:32And he asked me in the presence of the chiefs of staff committee there.
25:37He said the same thing.
25:40He asked me, should we give to the civilians what you people have?
25:46In these words.
25:47And I knew what he's talking of.
25:49And I told him, yes, sir, we don't mind, but please resolve our pay and status issues.
25:58So, that's a source of great envy.
26:02And so, like I said, the problem is the proximity of the political master.
26:10So, what is the solution?
26:14My suggested solution, in fact, which I had submitted to the services headquarters before I admitted office.
26:21One was, you know, one is the real integration of the services headquarters with the Ministry of Defense.
26:30Something which we have been talking since George Fernandes days in 1997-98.
26:35It has happened only on paper.
26:38It has not happened on ground.
26:41Secondly, the services must contribute officers to the central staffing scheme.
26:49There is a central staffing scheme, wherein the organized group A services contribute their officers, whether officers of undersecretary, deputy
27:01secretary, joint secretary, to this central staffing scheme.
27:05And wherein these officers are posted to, they may be belonging to any state card or anything, they are posted
27:12to various ministries.
27:13Now, if the services start subscribing to the scheme, then we will find our officers, let's say, in the rank
27:20of left colonel and brigadier, three ranks, which we can, I can recommend that they should be posted in the
27:27various ministries.
27:27And ultimately, when we sponsor officers under the central staffing scheme after obtaining government permission, we will have officers in
27:40the central pay commission support staff also, which is the main, which nobody is realizing.
27:51That is what is hitting us.
27:54That is what is hitting us.
27:54We do not have anybody in the pay commission support staff, which actually calls the shots.
28:03After all, what is the pay commission?
28:04There is one retired Supreme Court judge and only one member.
28:10Okay.
28:12So, it is the support staff, the joint secretaries and the, the deputy secretary, who are actually doing this paid
28:23work.
28:24And it is there we want, we need to have a representation.
28:28So, that is the solution, which I had submitted to the service headquarters, but sadly, nothing has happened.
28:36Anyway, we are really, you know, tied for time.
28:42Despite the chief of defense staff being secretary of military affairs, nothing has meaningfully changed.
28:48And finally, are there, are there any, is there any way to really reset this, you know, this dissimilarity or,
29:03you know, dissonance?
29:08Sir, I think CDS is still a work in progress.
29:13I, there are so many things which can be done.
29:16Firstly, I like to draw your attention to the allocation of business rules 1961, according to which the defense of
29:30India is the responsibility of department or defense.
29:34It is not the responsibility of services headquarters or any chief.
29:40It is the responsibility of department of defense.
29:43And who heads the department?
29:45Who heads the department of defense?
29:47It is the defense secretary.
29:49Even CDS, CDS is heading the department of military affairs.
29:53He is not heading the department of defense.
29:56So still, CDS is not responsible for defense of India.
29:59It is the defense secretary.
30:01And of course, the political responsibility rests with the honorable Raksha Madri.
30:07So, you know, I feel CDS, firstly, he should have been a five-star officer.
30:14Okay.
30:17Secondly, in the warrant of president should have been amended to put him equivalent to cabinet secretary, if not above
30:27him.
30:27The cabinet secretary today is 11th in the order of precedence, as per the warrant of precedence.
30:34While the three chiefs are 12th.
30:36Cabinet secretary is 11th.
30:37At least place the CDS in the 11th order of precedence.
30:43And at least make him more responsible in some way for the defense of India.
30:49At least operationally, define it operationally, he is responsible for defense of India.
30:55I will very reluctantly, but, you know, thank you very much, Jail Nagaral, for a very important, you know, set
31:06of issues which you elaborated on.
31:09And, well, all we can do is hope for a better future.
31:15Thank you very much.
31:17Thank you, sir.
31:18It was a pleasure talking with you.
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